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Seats in parliament

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
master_verhoffin
May 07, 2008 22:45:59 An interesting question has recently come-up in a game I'm DMing: one of the PCs and an NPC (both Brelish) have recently been ennobled for exemplary service during the Last War.

The question is, would being ennobled automatically grant a seat in the Brelish Parliament? The ECS says each of the 27 noble families has a hereditary seat, but says nothing about newly-risen nobles. Is this answered anywhere, or does anyone know?
#2
elrodian
May 08, 2008 17:32:48 Well i would not think that they would get in right away. For what you said noble families have a seat and these families would have had power for at least as long as the Last War but from what your post said PC just became nobles so i would think that they would have to get some help to get a seat becaues (I do not know you PC's story so if I am wrong on anything I am srry) but just beacue a person becomes a noble they do not get a lot of power or money but say your guys is real good firends with the king then he might get a seat. Your PC could have friends in the parliament and they could help you PC in. You could do reacher on monarchies on earth to see how it could work.

I hope this helps.
#3
cloud_divider
May 16, 2008 15:42:44
An interesting question has recently come-up in a game I'm DMing: one of the PCs and an NPC (both Brelish) have recently been ennobled for exemplary service during the Last War.

The question is, would being ennobled automatically grant a seat in the Brelish Parliament? The ECS says each of the 27 noble families has a hereditary seat, but says nothing about newly-risen nobles. Is this answered anywhere, or does anyone know?

Hard to say - as you note, the fine details of the Brelish parliamentary system are not described.

But let's posit, for a moment, that the parliamentary system is similar to that in the United Kingdom, with an Upper and Lower house (House of Lords, House of Commons). The Upper House would be populated by the properly ennobled, while the Lower House are elected officials of the general populace.

If you were fully ennobled (even if it's not a full-up hereditary title), I would presume that you would be granted full voting rights in Parliament. This would allow you the kind of leeway you'd want to get your PC's involved in state-level political intrigues. I think it would be a valuable distinction to make, between Title for Life and a Hereditary Title. The value of hereditary titles is perhaps even more important in Khorvaire - at least for the short-lived races (humans, half-orcs, etc), because that'd be the only way to ensure you have influence over the long-term. If an elf were granted a title, he could be voting against my grandchildren because I called him out on his foppish haircut 60 years ago! Incidentally, that also would be a reason for an entirely new layer of considerations when handing out titles - for Boranel to give an Elf (or Dwarf), even just a title for life, he would have to be cognizant that this person will have political power that will last generations! Seeing as the Galifar kings were human, I can totally see a pretty heavy bias towards ennobling humans over other races. This also gives some pretty good justification for a healthy number of lifetime titles in Parliament, in addition to the 27 hereditary nobles - it's a way to help ensure that the entrenched powers don't dominate completely.

...I think the proper title for the noble-for-life is a Peerage (ie "we make you a peer of the full nobility"), but I'm far from an expert. My time in the UK was short, and I honestly didn't pay much more than superficial attention to the local politics.

How large should the Noble House be? Assuming one representative from each of the 27 primary noble houses, a total of 50-60, might not be unreasonable. 100 might be on the edge, but it's certainly plausible.

A democratically-elected Lower House wouldn't be incredibly hard to conceive of - the Sharn Council consists of elected officials, after all. This number could easily be 100 or so.
#4
octaviusiii
May 16, 2008 17:32:36 Well, there are a couple of ways to do this. First, there is the option of making a two-house Parliament like the UK, at least before the more recent reforms. This means that you can get a hereditary seat, or you can be appointed to a seat by the monarch. Being a noble would not automatically grant you the seat, unless the King wanted you to have one. (About the longevity question: imagine appointing the first warforged to the House 'for life.' "Mr. Speaker, in all the millenia that I have been a member of this house...")

Or, you could have it be a unified House of Parliament. This would mean that there would be at least 27 seats in the House for the noble families, while the rest would be popularly elected. This means that all the seats are already assigned and your characters would not get a seat without some legal wrangling - perhaps a unanimous vote of the House and the consent of the King?
#5
revvecor
May 25, 2008 22:54:26 Even though the posters above have given great answers for this scenario, there is another approach you could take and have the PC work for one of the parliament members or a lobbyist type figure pushing for certain polices or projects to be voted for.
#6
mystrich
May 25, 2008 23:20:09 Well, I'd consider working it like the States of the United States when slavery was legal, but trying to be outlawed. Every time a state joined that would be for Civil Rights, they added a Pro-Slave state in order to appease everybody.

Have Breland add an even number of unrelated people (the two PCs are associated, so they need two more people, perhaps purposely with different views) to try and keep balance in their voting.
#7
snarky_monkey
May 26, 2008 0:04:21 Stealing from a US based idea as well, use the concept of "Junior" and "Senior" members of parliament with influence to match.
#8
octaviusiii
May 26, 2008 4:17:26
Stealing from a US based idea as well, use the concept of "Junior" and "Senior" members of parliament with influence to match.

Well, in a parliamentary system they'd be called back-benchers and front-benchers (the more important you are, the closer to the center aisle you sit). As for the idea about balancing, that would work with parties - it still happens today, actually. One of the problems with giving Washington, DC state-like voting rights in Congress is that it'd be always vote Democrat, and Republicans don't like that. The compromise is to give Republican Utah another seat, which it needs anyway, and redistribute it next census.
#9
master_verhoffin
May 26, 2008 13:57:51 Thanks for the replies everyone, and sorry it's taken me so long to respond. The game has grown to a full political game: 2 PCs have been ennobled by King Boranel, 1 just became a City Councilor in Sharn, and the other is already a noble from serving in the Aundarian Royal Eyes.

Hmm, I hadn't considered that the upper house might have more than just the 27 hereditary seats. Thinking about that, though, it seems logical that the highest legislature in Breland would include more than just 27 people. The lower house seems pretty well defined already, but I'm thinking something like this for the upper house after reading everyone's responses: all Brelish nobles have a seat in the upper house, regardless of whether they're life peers or not. Only the life peers, however, have hereditary seats, whereas the other nobles' seats expire upon their deaths.

As for nonhumans being ennobled: We know at least 1 nonhuman family has a hereditary seat (the ir'Tains, who are half-elves) so it's not so much of a stretch to imagine that there are a few others as well. Most of them would probably be gnomes, due to Breland's close connections to Zilargo. A fair few could be elves as well, considering most elves have been around since before the Last War (one of the ennobled PCs is an elven war hero who served in the Brelish army since the Last War began).

Thanks for the advice, and anyone care to weigh in on either point?
#10
octaviusiii
May 26, 2008 14:59:36 If every noble has a seat, most of them wouldn't be there most of the time. They have estates and businesses and households to run, and probably wouldn't want to be shouldered with the responsibilities of politics all the time. This, actually, is similar to the peerages of the House of Lords, of which there are now about 735 members.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 master_verhoffin May 07, 2008 22:45:59	An interesting question has recently come-up in a game I'm DMing: one of the PCs and an NPC (both Brelish) have recently been ennobled for exemplary service during the Last War. The question is, would being ennobled automatically grant a seat in the Brelish Parliament? The ECS says each of the 27 noble families has a hereditary seat, but says nothing about newly-risen nobles. Is this answered anywhere, or does anyone know?
#2 elrodian May 08, 2008 17:32:48	Well i would not think that they would get in right away. For what you said noble families have a seat and these families would have had power for at least as long as the Last War but from what your post said PC just became nobles so i would think that they would have to get some help to get a seat becaues (I do not know you PC's story so if I am wrong on anything I am srry) but just beacue a person becomes a noble they do not get a lot of power or money but say your guys is real good firends with the king then he might get a seat. Your PC could have friends in the parliament and they could help you PC in. You could do reacher on monarchies on earth to see how it could work. I hope this helps.
#3 cloud_divider May 16, 2008 15:42:44	An interesting question has recently come-up in a game I'm DMing: one of the PCs and an NPC (both Brelish) have recently been ennobled for exemplary service during the Last War. The question is, would being ennobled automatically grant a seat in the Brelish Parliament? The ECS says each of the 27 noble families has a hereditary seat, but says nothing about newly-risen nobles. Is this answered anywhere, or does anyone know? Hard to say - as you note, the fine details of the Brelish parliamentary system are not described. But let's posit, for a moment, that the parliamentary system is similar to that in the United Kingdom, with an Upper and Lower house (House of Lords, House of Commons). The Upper House would be populated by the properly ennobled, while the Lower House are elected officials of the general populace. If you were fully ennobled (even if it's not a full-up hereditary title), I would presume that you would be granted full voting rights in Parliament. This would allow you the kind of leeway you'd want to get your PC's involved in state-level political intrigues. I think it would be a valuable distinction to make, between Title for Life and a Hereditary Title. The value of hereditary titles is perhaps even more important in Khorvaire - at least for the short-lived races (humans, half-orcs, etc), because that'd be the only way to ensure you have influence over the long-term. If an elf were granted a title, he could be voting against my grandchildren because I called him out on his foppish haircut 60 years ago! Incidentally, that also would be a reason for an entirely new layer of considerations when handing out titles - for Boranel to give an Elf (or Dwarf), even just a title for life, he would have to be cognizant that this person will have political power that will last generations! Seeing as the Galifar kings were human, I can totally see a pretty heavy bias towards ennobling humans over other races. This also gives some pretty good justification for a healthy number of lifetime titles in Parliament, in addition to the 27 hereditary nobles - it's a way to help ensure that the entrenched powers don't dominate completely. ...I think the proper title for the noble-for-life is a Peerage (ie "we make you a peer of the full nobility"), but I'm far from an expert. My time in the UK was short, and I honestly didn't pay much more than superficial attention to the local politics. How large should the Noble House be? Assuming one representative from each of the 27 primary noble houses, a total of 50-60, might not be unreasonable. 100 might be on the edge, but it's certainly plausible. A democratically-elected Lower House wouldn't be incredibly hard to conceive of - the Sharn Council consists of elected officials, after all. This number could easily be 100 or so.
#4 octaviusiii May 16, 2008 17:32:36	Well, there are a couple of ways to do this. First, there is the option of making a two-house Parliament like the UK, at least before the more recent reforms. This means that you can get a hereditary seat, or you can be appointed to a seat by the monarch. Being a noble would not automatically grant you the seat, unless the King wanted you to have one. (About the longevity question: imagine appointing the first warforged to the House 'for life.' "Mr. Speaker, in all the millenia that I have been a member of this house...") Or, you could have it be a unified House of Parliament. This would mean that there would be at least 27 seats in the House for the noble families, while the rest would be popularly elected. This means that all the seats are already assigned and your characters would not get a seat without some legal wrangling - perhaps a unanimous vote of the House and the consent of the King?
#5 revvecor May 25, 2008 22:54:26	Even though the posters above have given great answers for this scenario, there is another approach you could take and have the PC work for one of the parliament members or a lobbyist type figure pushing for certain polices or projects to be voted for.
#6 mystrich May 25, 2008 23:20:09	Well, I'd consider working it like the States of the United States when slavery was legal, but trying to be outlawed. Every time a state joined that would be for Civil Rights, they added a Pro-Slave state in order to appease everybody. Have Breland add an even number of unrelated people (the two PCs are associated, so they need two more people, perhaps purposely with different views) to try and keep balance in their voting.
#7 snarky_monkey May 26, 2008 0:04:21	Stealing from a US based idea as well, use the concept of "Junior" and "Senior" members of parliament with influence to match.
#8 octaviusiii May 26, 2008 4:17:26	Stealing from a US based idea as well, use the concept of "Junior" and "Senior" members of parliament with influence to match. Well, in a parliamentary system they'd be called back-benchers and front-benchers (the more important you are, the closer to the center aisle you sit). As for the idea about balancing, that would work with parties - it still happens today, actually. One of the problems with giving Washington, DC state-like voting rights in Congress is that it'd be always vote Democrat, and Republicans don't like that. The compromise is to give Republican Utah another seat, which it needs anyway, and redistribute it next census.
#9 master_verhoffin May 26, 2008 13:57:51	Thanks for the replies everyone, and sorry it's taken me so long to respond. The game has grown to a full political game: 2 PCs have been ennobled by King Boranel, 1 just became a City Councilor in Sharn, and the other is already a noble from serving in the Aundarian Royal Eyes. Hmm, I hadn't considered that the upper house might have more than just the 27 hereditary seats. Thinking about that, though, it seems logical that the highest legislature in Breland would include more than just 27 people. The lower house seems pretty well defined already, but I'm thinking something like this for the upper house after reading everyone's responses: all Brelish nobles have a seat in the upper house, regardless of whether they're life peers or not. Only the life peers, however, have hereditary seats, whereas the other nobles' seats expire upon their deaths. As for nonhumans being ennobled: We know at least 1 nonhuman family has a hereditary seat (the ir'Tains, who are half-elves) so it's not so much of a stretch to imagine that there are a few others as well. Most of them would probably be gnomes, due to Breland's close connections to Zilargo. A fair few could be elves as well, considering most elves have been around since before the Last War (one of the ennobled PCs is an elven war hero who served in the Brelish army since the Last War began). Thanks for the advice, and anyone care to weigh in on either point?
#10 octaviusiii May 26, 2008 14:59:36	If every noble has a seat, most of them wouldn't be there most of the time. They have estates and businesses and households to run, and probably wouldn't want to be shouldered with the responsibilities of politics all the time. This, actually, is similar to the peerages of the House of Lords, of which there are now about 735 members.