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Seminar: Secrets of Eberron
Take a look at our online catalog: the Eberron Campaign Guide has been added, set for release in June 2009. What else can we now reveal about Eberron?
Thursday, 2PM (Gen Con Time): The Secrets of Eberron Seminar with Keith Baker, James Wyatt, Stephen Schubert, and Jeremy Crawford sought to answer this tricky question (although, as James pointed out, the panelists would be addressing the facts of Eberron more than its secrets).
Eberron in Novels
Discussion began with a look at the novels that have recently released, leading up to November and Keith Baker's The Queen of Stone -- a spy novel of sorts, much different from The Dreaming Dark and something with a strong Eberron feel.
2009 will see DeWolf's Death Comes Easy, Wyatt's Dragon War, Bassingthwaite's Word of Traitors, and more (look for these to be added to the online product catalog shortly). According to the panel, these novels will take a step away from traditional high fantasy novels and toward what makes Eberron more, well, Eberron.
Eberron in RPGs
Again, first a look back:
Feb 2008: City of Stormreach (the 4th Edition conversion guide has been turned over and is currently sitting with the R&D development team).
March: Adventurer's Guide to Eberron.
Now: DDI's Playing Warforged, Expeditionary Dispatches, and the Artificer playtest articles are already online and available to read. In the future, you'll see previews of next year's Eberron Campaign Guide.
Now a look ahead:
Player's Handbook II: includes gnomes, half-orcs, and shifters. What are the ghostly-looking felines on the cover? James remains coy.
Eberron Campaign Guide: June 2009, "a fresh look at a familiar world."
Eberron Player's Guide: July 2009.
Secrets of the Ashen Crown: July 2009.
DDI: continue to look for further Eberron content online in Dragon and Dungeon Magazines.
What's happening with the setting? The general philosophy involves not advancing the timeline or making drastic changes to the world but refocusing on certain components of the setting. For example:
The Last War: Just two years out, this event will be given a greater presence in the setting, as it should. No one thinks that it's truly ended -- tension remains that it is going to start again.
The Draconic Prophecy: Dragonmarks are the prophecy written on the skin of races, and characters should have a connection to this prophecy -- the fate of the world -- played out at all levels but especially seen in new epic destinies.
Points of Light: The Last War already brings this philosophy to the setting, with centers of civilization surrounded by large areas of uninhabited space. This is not entirely the humans' land.
Threats New and Old: Details and hooks to bring danger into your game, some of it new to the setting. Some of these might be things waiting to happen in your campaign, and some are "evolutionary," in that they match the levels of your players as they advance.
Questions
How will kalashtar work in the absence of psionics?
They are given a psionic flavor without confining them to a psionic class, much as current powers have a psionic flavor, dealing psychic damage.
What was easy and difficult to convert about Eberron to 4th Edition?
Dragonmarks were a challenge to balance properly because of the changes to the powers structure. Overall, though, Eberron is a D&D world, fully able to be converted to the new edition. Skill challenges, for example, work really well in this noir-style setting, and rituals show that magic is a part of everyday life.
How will the new races be worked into Eberron?
Eladrin can easily be moved between planes into Eberron. The dragonborn, tiefling, and eladrin are all given hooks to help fit them into the setting.
How is the artificer developing?
Stephen Schubert is handling this class's development and is looking at two current builds: the guy who makes 'minions' and the guy who imbues items and weapons. The design of the class is essentially complete. Now development is taking place, thanks to the feedback coming in through the message boards and [email]dndinsider@wizards.com[/email].
Is DDI the place to go for the advancement of the Eberron storyline?
Yes, that is the plan for campaign settings moving forward. Printed campaign setting books (such as the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide) that are useful to all campaigns, not just those focused in that particular setting, will be accompanied by articles and support on DDI.
Will campaign setting material be legal in organized play games?
Yes.
Will Eberron's cosmology be adjusted for 4th Edition?
Yes. It will remain distinct, however. Consider an orrery as a metaphor to describe Eberron's cosmology -- while things might not have changed significantly, there may be a new metaphor to describe the cosmology.
Will eldritch devices ever be statted out?
Yes and no. Some can be statted now, while others function more as plot devices (those might be better handled with skill challenges, for examples).
Will the new races have their own dragonmarked houses?
There will be no new dragonmarked houses introduced, with one exception. As part of making the dragonmarked houses more accessible, the race restrictions are being lessened if not outright removed.
What is the importance of the aberrant marks?
More about these will be revealed.
Was it difficult not to advance the timeline for a new edition?
Yes. Moving it only two years forward was discussed, in order to show what's changed in the setting for a new edition (such as new races being introduced). Novels were even written as if the timeline actually did advance. In the end, though, the planners decided not to do so, but to come up with a different solution.
How does the demi-god epic destiny work in Eberron?
In Eberron, there is a belief that mortals can ascend to godhood (such as the belief great dragons can become sovereigns). Are these heroes actual demi-gods or simply mad and powerful? Essentially, that's something for the DM to decide!
Take a look at our online catalog: the Eberron Campaign Guide has been added, set for release in June 2009. What else can we now reveal about Eberron?
Thursday, 2PM (Gen Con Time): The Secrets of Eberron Seminar with Keith Baker, James Wyatt, Stephen Schubert, and Jeremy Crawford sought to answer this tricky question (although, as James pointed out, the panelists would be addressing the facts of Eberron more than its secrets).
Eberron in Novels
Discussion began with a look at the novels that have recently released, leading up to November and Keith Baker's The Queen of Stone -- a spy novel of sorts, much different from The Dreaming Dark and something with a strong Eberron feel.
2009 will see DeWolf's Death Comes Easy, Wyatt's Dragon War, Bassingthwaite's Word of Traitors, and more (look for these to be added to the online product catalog shortly). According to the panel, these novels will take a step away from traditional high fantasy novels and toward what makes Eberron more, well, Eberron.
Eberron in RPGs
Again, first a look back:
Feb 2008: City of Stormreach (the 4th Edition conversion guide has been turned over and is currently sitting with the R&D development team).
March: Adventurer's Guide to Eberron.
Now: DDI's Playing Warforged, Expeditionary Dispatches, and the Artificer playtest articles are already online and available to read. In the future, you'll see previews of next year's Eberron Campaign Guide.
Now a look ahead:
Player's Handbook II: includes gnomes, half-orcs, and shifters. What are the ghostly-looking felines on the cover? James remains coy.
Eberron Campaign Guide: June 2009, "a fresh look at a familiar world."
Eberron Player's Guide: July 2009.
Secrets of the Ashen Crown: July 2009.
DDI: continue to look for further Eberron content online in Dragon and Dungeon Magazines.
What's happening with the setting? The general philosophy involves not advancing the timeline or making drastic changes to the world but refocusing on certain components of the setting. For example:
The Last War: Just two years out, this event will be given a greater presence in the setting, as it should. No one thinks that it's truly ended -- tension remains that it is going to start again.
The Draconic Prophecy: Dragonmarks are the prophecy written on the skin of races, and characters should have a connection to this prophecy -- the fate of the world -- played out at all levels but especially seen in new epic destinies.
Points of Light: The Last War already brings this philosophy to the setting, with centers of civilization surrounded by large areas of uninhabited space. This is not entirely the humans' land.
Threats New and Old: Details and hooks to bring danger into your game, some of it new to the setting. Some of these might be things waiting to happen in your campaign, and some are "evolutionary," in that they match the levels of your players as they advance.
Questions
How will kalashtar work in the absence of psionics?
They are given a psionic flavor without confining them to a psionic class, much as current powers have a psionic flavor, dealing psychic damage.
What was easy and difficult to convert about Eberron to 4th Edition?
Dragonmarks were a challenge to balance properly because of the changes to the powers structure. Overall, though, Eberron is a D&D world, fully able to be converted to the new edition. Skill challenges, for example, work really well in this noir-style setting, and rituals show that magic is a part of everyday life.
How will the new races be worked into Eberron?
Eladrin can easily be moved between planes into Eberron. The dragonborn, tiefling, and eladrin are all given hooks to help fit them into the setting.
How is the artificer developing?
Stephen Schubert is handling this class's development and is looking at two current builds: the guy who makes 'minions' and the guy who imbues items and weapons. The design of the class is essentially complete. Now development is taking place, thanks to the feedback coming in through the message boards and [email]dndinsider@wizards.com[/email].
Is DDI the place to go for the advancement of the Eberron storyline?
Yes, that is the plan for campaign settings moving forward. Printed campaign setting books (such as the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide) that are useful to all campaigns, not just those focused in that particular setting, will be accompanied by articles and support on DDI.
Will campaign setting material be legal in organized play games?
Yes.
Will Eberron's cosmology be adjusted for 4th Edition?
Yes. It will remain distinct, however. Consider an orrery as a metaphor to describe Eberron's cosmology -- while things might not have changed significantly, there may be a new metaphor to describe the cosmology.
Will eldritch devices ever be statted out?
Yes and no. Some can be statted now, while others function more as plot devices (those might be better handled with skill challenges, for examples).
Will the new races have their own dragonmarked houses?
There will be no new dragonmarked houses introduced, with one exception. As part of making the dragonmarked houses more accessible, the race restrictions are being lessened if not outright removed.
What is the importance of the aberrant marks?
More about these will be revealed.
Was it difficult not to advance the timeline for a new edition?
Yes. Moving it only two years forward was discussed, in order to show what's changed in the setting for a new edition (such as new races being introduced). Novels were even written as if the timeline actually did advance. In the end, though, the planners decided not to do so, but to come up with a different solution.
How does the demi-god epic destiny work in Eberron?
In Eberron, there is a belief that mortals can ascend to godhood (such as the belief great dragons can become sovereigns). Are these heroes actual demi-gods or simply mad and powerful? Essentially, that's something for the DM to decide!
Will the new races have their own dragonmarked houses?
There will be no new dragonmarked houses introduced, with one exception. As part of making the dragonmarked houses more accessible, the race restrictions are being lessened if not outright removed.
I'm shocked. That's a pretty huge change to the flavor.
If there won't be race restrictions to dragonmarks, how will we have dragonmark families? Will the Houses not be made up of blood relations, just random strangers who got marks? How will we have the plot potentials for betrothals, excoriates, and so on? The Houses gave a lot of flavor distinction to the races and provided alternative factions to the defaults for each race, too; how will they keep this from getting really flat?
This is a really bizarre change. I have no idea why they'd do it. And accessibility is a weird reason, considering there are racially-restricted feats in the PHB...?
(The rest of the seminar info is acceptable, this just stood out as mind-bogglingly weird)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080814
[sblock]Seminar: Secrets of Eberron
Will the new races have their own dragonmarked houses?
There will be no new dragonmarked houses introduced, with one exception. As part of making the dragonmarked houses more accessible, the race restrictions are being lessened if not outright removed.
18DELTA
Wow... Just Wow... Dragonborn & Warforged bearing a dragonmark... House Cannith now populated with gnomes and orcs and.. Gnoll?
I really like to give the benefit of the doubt, but something like this really really changes the setting dramaticly, and sadly, to me, ruins some of the intrigue in Eberron... Although, house infighting between racial factions is kinda neat, but, Where does this leave Aberrant Marks? If anyone and everyone can now bear a mark, how do the Aberrants work?
I'm shocked. That's a pretty huge change to the flavor.
If there won't be race restrictions to dragonmarks, how will we have dragonmark families? Will the Houses not be made up of blood relations, just random strangers who got marks? How will we have the plot potentials for betrothals, excoriates, and so on? The Houses gave a lot of flavor distinction to the races and provided alternative factions to the defaults for each race, too; how will they keep this from getting really flat?
This is a really bizarre change. I have no idea why they'd do it. And accessibility is a weird reason, considering there are racially-restricted feats in the PHB...?
(The rest of it is acceptable, this just stood out as mind-bogglingly weird)
One of the huge things that stuck out to me too. While I was expecting perhaps minor changes at best due to the shift of races, this seems like a very odd way of doing. How can a house keep secrets if every Joe Smoe is part of it.
*New guy in House Phiarlin*
"You guys use the mark to do what? Watch! Help! I'm going to be killed!"
The removed is what sticks out most. If they're lessened, then it might work. I've considered the possibility of a Human in an Elf or especially in a Half-elf house through Elf & Human = Half-Elf + Human, going on. But removing them just seems like something that will make people say, "What were they thinking?"
The only race change I've even considered is Half-Orcs for Dragonborn, since they are the replacement of the 'fighter-type' race in core. While lots of people are planning to buy PHB2, it still leaves the half-orcs as non-core.
Where does this leave Aberrant Marks? If anyone and everyone can now bear a mark, how do the Aberrants work?
They don't have to change much. People of two different marks or those just corrupted by Khyber develop an Aberrant mark. It's a mark that causes destruction rather than creating a minor magical effect.
At least that's how I'd do it ;) As for the why, It helps give the feeling that players are "special" and not just ordinary people. Also a half-orc player with the Mark of Storms could be the seed for a new House that eventually poses a threat to House Lyrandar. Although I'm guessing it primarily has to do with making Dragonmarks the Eberron equivalent of Spellscars or FR Backgrounds (not sure which, if either, they'll end up resembling more).
Alternatively there could be a ritual that the House elders perform after someone has proven their trustworthiness to the House which grants them access to the mark. But that's a larger fluff change.
What's more shocking to me is they implied there was a new dragonmarked house.
Will the new races have their own dragonmarked houses?
There will be no new dragonmarked houses introduced, with one exception.
?????
Sort of an idiotic way to answer that question. Nope! Well except for that one thing....
Isn't that a Yes then?
Anyways I'll wait to see but, I don't know about others, however it was my hope no timeline advancement would eliminate retcon crap like this being introduced. I'll see though but right now it seems like I'll be saving myself some money come 2009 with one less game book to buy.
The only race change I've even considered is Half-Orcs for Dragonborn, since they are the replacement of the 'fighter-type' race in core. While lots of people are planning to buy PHB2, it still leaves the half-orcs as non-core.
Half-Orcs are non core as per the definition of 3.x. In 4e, all the PHB are Core books.
I also, am wary of what they've said for dragonmarks.
There will be no new dragonmarked houses introduced, with one exception. As part of making the dragonmarked houses more accessible, the race restrictions are being lessened if not outright removed.
Okay, a new dragonmarked house.. doesn't that also mean a new moon in Eberron? Now, there are going to be humans in Kunderak? Half-Orcs in Sivis? If this is true, I may just forgo getting the setting. A really stupid change in my opinion. I no longer look forward to Eberron, instead I look towards it with trepidation.
Of course, the above quoted passage concerning the dragonmarked houses could just mean that other races are allowed in the house, but still wouldn't have dragonmarks. For instance, a dragonborn in kunderak would be like a step-brother, and never get the dragonmark. If there is to be another house, I'm hoping it is for aberrant marks, considering they said there is more to be revealed about them, that may just be it.
While lots of people are planning to buy PHB2, it still leaves the half-orcs as non-core.
Half-orcs will be core in my game. As will lots of things published in books other then the first three.
Being somewhat new to D&D, I just don't understand the core vs non-core delineation. Core is whatever books the DM says are useable.
There will be no new dragonmarked houses introduced, with one exception. As part of making the dragonmarked houses more accessible, the race restrictions are being lessened if not outright removed.
My intepretation of this is that the exception is that there is less restriction.
I suspect that it will be that the dragonmarks developed originally in a wide number of individuals, who then banded together to make the houses as the mark is passed by hereditary means.
The new interpretation certainly intrigues me, but I'll wait until I see it printed on paper and in my hands before I put stock to anything that is said. Revisions can be made until it's gone gold (to use the IT turn of phrase).
This is really disconcerting. While the changes would have been acceptable if they'd pushed the date 2 years further, implementing them without any reason is just a bad retcon.
18DELTA ;)
As for the race restriction being stripped, it might only be for PCs and a few unique NPCs. However, they haven't talked about removing the family by blood and mariage restrictions. Which could suggest that members of the same d'House will remain mainly of the same race. However, seing how dragonmarked are scared of mixing blood, mariage with another race could also be tabooed.
As for the Planar Orrery, I don't really mind the change they are announcing since they never really developped the planes in 3.5. Even if the Planar Orrery is gone, I guess there will still be manifest zones and coterminous and remote phases. They might even give us tools to use that more often. Who really keeps track with a calendar to know when will be the next coterminous phase of Dolurrh anyway?
In the Eberron conversion of Keep on the Shadowfell (or discussions about it) it was said that the Plane of Shadows could be known by different names, one of which would be the Shadowfell. It was also said that the Shadowfell was a transitive plane that could make travels to Mabar and Dolurrh easier.
So, maybe the Feywild will be used as a transitive plane to Thelanis and Irian. The Elemental Chaos could hold Fernia, Risia, Lamannia, Syrania and lead to Khyber. The Astral sea could be reached by crossing the Ring of Siberys and could hold Dal Quor, Shavarath, Daanvi, Kythri. The Far Realm could be another name for Xoriat.
Rekko
Except that Eberron is not really that tied to mechanics.
You are joking, right? That was actually one of the criteria for the setting search. The most obvious example is the fact that only the v3.5 core races have dragonmarks. There are tons of other examples, but I'm not interested in spelling them out for you.
You are joking, right? That was actually one of the criteria for the setting search. The most obvious example is the fact that only the v3.5 core races have dragonmarks. There are tons of other examples, but I'm not interested in spelling them out for you.
While I agree about the setting tied to 3.x, I'm not following the "The most obvious example is the fact that only the v3.5 core races have dragonmarks" statement. I can think of a bunch of 3.5 races which don't have dragonmarks. In fact it seemed just the opposite and that it was the earlier version races which had the marks. But hey I could be missing something.
As for the Planar Orrery, I don't really mind the change they are announcing since they never really developped the planes in 3.5. Even if the Planar Orrery is gone, I guess there will still be manifest zones and coterminous and remote phases. They might even give us tools to use that more often. Who really keeps track with a calendar to know when will be the next coterminous phase of Dolurrh anyway?
In the Eberron conversion of Keep on the Shadowfell (or discussions about it) it was said that the Plane of Shadows could be known by different names, one of which would be the Shadowfell. It was also said that the Shadowfell was a transitive plane that could make travels to Mabar and Dolurrh easier.
So, maybe the Feywild will be used as a transitive plane to Thelanis and Irian. The Elemental Chaos could hold Fernia, Risia, Lamannia, Syrania and lead to Khyber. The Astral sea could be reached by crossing the Ring of Siberys and could hold Dal Quor, Shavarath, Daanvi, Kythri. The Far Realm could be another name for Xoriat.
Rekko
Well, the phases in the orrery weren't supposed to be tracked; they were designed to be used as a DM's plot device.
As far as the other planes, Eberron's planes never followed core cosmology so why should it now? The only reason I can think of is to save the writers the hassle of trying to write conversion notes or write Eberron-specific modules.
While I agree about the setting tied to 3.x, I'm not following the "The most obvious example is the fact that only the v3.5 core races have dragonmarks" statement. I can think of a bunch of 3.5 races which don't have dragonmarks. In fact it seemed just the opposite and that it was the earlier version races which had the marks. But hey I could be missing something.
You are missing something. Every race that has true dragonmarks is a core race (i.e. - from the PHB). No other races have true dragonmarks.
Humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes, half-elves, half-orcs, and halflings are the only races that have true dragonmarks.
Half-Orcs are non core as per the definition of 3.x. In 4e, all the PHB are Core books.
If it's a book that you don't have to buy, IMO, it's not core. You need the PHB, DMG, and MM to play the game. Extra races an classes are supplements to that.
As I read, I understand that there won't be new Dragonmarked Houses. However, there's House Tarkanan and House Vol that never really got a whole lot of attention. My bet is that they are going to develop House Tarkanan, which is, in my opinion, a great idea. And by doing so, they'll leave House Vol and the Mark of Death a mystery.
That doesn't really explain "new" unless House Tarkanan somehow grew and actually revealed itself. Which wouldn't be bad, but it would be an idiotic move since the other Houses would destroy it.
Being somewhat new to D&D, I just don't understand the core vs non-core delineation. Core is whatever books the DM says are useable.
1 problem being, this was one of the main reasons people liked 4e. It was going to be different and not more than core books since 3.5 had thousands of races, hundreads of base classes, and who knows how many prestige classes. Many of which were under or overpowered because they didn't receive half the attention in testing that the core had.
Look already at the new Warlock pact on the site. To me, that looks much stronger than any base class we've seen so far, and that's just from a few powers. Assuming they add more to the FR setting, all of which stronger, you now end up with a min/max character, the thing 4e was made to eliminate.
I really like the Orrery. I prefer it to the Great Wheel. It cut down the number of planes by many. However, in 4E, they tried removing the symetric aspect of the planes. And the Orrery doesn't do that. You have Fernia, Risia, Syrania and Lamannia being the Elemental planes. You have Irian and Mabar being the Energy planes. You have Kythri and Daanvi being the Alignment planes. The truely original planes are Dal Quor, Xoriat, Thelanis, Shavarath which are planes attached to concepts of Dream, Passion, Beauty and War.
However, if you look at World and Monsters, and read the description of the new cosmology, you could find similar traits between the 4E planes and Eberron planes.
Lamannia is described in similar ways like the Elemental Chaos. So blend in the other Elemental Planes and you get the Eberron version of the Elemental Choas where regions of hot desert are called Fernia and icy cold tundras are called Risia.
Syrania could also blend in the Astral Sea, moreover, both are home to the Angels. However, in the Astral Sea floats dominions and other realms. Much like the Astral Plane holds the Orrery. So these dominions could be Shavarath, Dal Quor, and some of the other planes.
Shadowfell was said to hold the Plane of Shadow and Mabar, and it allowed easier travel to Dolurrh. But it doesn't say that Dolurrh can't be one of those dominions in the Astral Sea. Same thing for the Feywild.
This just means that it's pretty easy for the designers to come up with the 4E cosmology à la Eberron style.
Rekko
No its not talking about the Marks themselves just the house... so in House Cannith you can have gnomish tinkers who joined the house through marriage or honor but don't need the mark...
You are missing something. Every race that has true dragonmarks is a core race (i.e. - from the PHB). No other races have true dragonmarks.
Humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes, half-elves, half-orcs, and halflings are the only races that have true dragonmarks.
Yeah, look like I missed the core part and must have focused in on the 3.5 part.
No its not talking about the Marks themselves just the house... so in House Cannith you can have gnomish tinkers who joined the house through marriage or honor but don't need the mark...
I hope so. However it was always that way in Eberron. There was the House and then there was the Guild it controlled. Anyone could join the Guild if they had the right skill/s. The reason other races couldn't join the houses before was that the wrong unions could not produce heirs that could develop marks. But yes perhaps they just meant the Guilds and Houses have been combined. I don't know what the point of that would be though? Were there gnome/elf whatever players dying to make their last name Cannith or something? Perhaps they will be expanding the affiliation bonuses of being a member of a house like they had in Dragonmarked and things like Favored in House will be beefed up so it's not just about the marks.
Were there gnome/elf whatever players dying to make their last name Cannith or something? Perhaps they will be expanding the affiliation bonuses of being a member of a house like they had in Dragonmarked and things like Favored in House will be beefed up so it's not just about the marks.
Or just wanting the Mark of Making? I could see that, but that's as simple as a reinterpretation of "House Cannith is gnomes."
Something i think should be considered with the Dragonmarks Houses is that at first i was upset because i thought "A Human with the Mark of Shadow? NO!" but then i read it and thought...
No its not talking about the Marks themselves just the house... so in House Cannith you can have gnomish tinkers who joined the house through marriage or honor but don't need the mark...
That's not too bad/big of a change then... I can live with that.
Or just wanting the Mark of Making?
??? Then that would be back to the human in Phiarlan with a Mark of Shadow which we are hoping is NOT the case.
??? Then that would be back to the human in Phiarlan with a Mark of Shadow which we are hoping is NOT the case.
I didn't say I agree with it.
Maybe the book will be worth just picking up the arty class?
Well... On the bright side, it sounds like the Artificer is back on track to becmoing more like its roots, rather than the Green Arrow/Crack sprinkling/ ranged leader controller the playtest made him out to be!
Maybe the book will be worth just picking up the arty class?
Honestly, I still don't think they will have a melee-ficer. The core rules already have two leaders that both have melee-weapon-only abilities. Why make a third class like that. Leaders are all going to be very similar classes. If you wanted to be an artificer that was melee based, play a Warlord and call yourself an artificer.
Honestly, I still don't think they will have a melee-ficer. The core rules already have two leaders that both have melee-weapon-only abilities. Why make a third class like that. Leaders are all going to be very similar classes. If you wanted to be an artificer that was melee based, play a Warlord and call yourself an artificer.
*Sighs*
Sad... I really hope not. I would hope that Wizard's would side more with flavor and concept rather than nitch and role. Leaders that actually have different forms of healing thier allies apart from Identical At-wills the Warlord and the Cleric recieve. Item buffing (for ether ranged or melee), Item Creation (even if just a little bit), Item manipulation (using wand or other item abilities multiple times or at the cost of healing surges or other encounter and dailiy powers), And minion making (Homonculi !!!), would be nice rather than Arcane Ranged Leader/ Controller: Must have healing word ability like all other leaders... Bleh
Also, we already know that the class feature of the artificer is a Healing Word ability. Item creation is the same for the artificer as anyone else, you just use Enchant Magic Item, and their ability to identify magic items without a spell is now a core mechanic of make an Arcana check (although most magic items are instantly identified when you take a short rest).
For instance the running joke of the seminar became "Boy that thing on the cover of the Player's Handbook 2 looks an awful lot like a shifter doesn't it?" They never actually said "The shifter is in PHB2" but they refered to that "Very shifter looking character" all the time.
As to the dragonmarks, yes they said that other races and non Dragonmark races would be able to gain dragonmarks. HOWEVER! This was refered back to the fact that in 4th edition Eberron the Prophecy would have its importance really punched up, that the prophecy is written on the skin of mortal races is really really important.
There are still only the 13 houses (14 if you cound House Tarkanan), there will not be a teifling house or a dragonborn house. They specifically said that non 'dragonmarked' races developing dragonmarks was NOT NORMAL, its being marked by the prophecy directly, and personally. Mind you this is not unprecidented, the Cataclysm Mage and the adventure Eyes of the Lich Queen allowed non-dragonmarked races to develop dragonmarks. A dragonborn with a mark is a unique (not to say the dragonmark is unique, rather the event of the dragonborn developing a mark) pretty much PC or plot device only event. They will not be founding new houses or be expecting their children to develop marks THEY PERSONALLY have been marked by the prophecy.
Also while we don't know the mechanics fo the new Dragonmarks, the pannalists were extremely tight lipped about the new mechanics beyond saying it was "Awesome", James said awesome a lot actually. They did mention there will be Epic Destinies related to Dragonmarks and The Prophecy.
As to the dragonmarks, yes they said that other races and non Dragonmark races would be able to gain dragonmarks. HOWEVER! This was refered back to the fact that in 4th edition Eberron the Prophecy would have its importance really punched up, that the prophecy is written on the skin of mortal races is really really important.
Nived, did they say anything about the in-world frequency of dragonmarked races getting the dragonmark of a different race (like an elf getting the Mark of Warding)? If it's just a plot/PC only kind of thing, that's not so big a change. I mean, we DMs could've done that in our own campaigns pretty easily, and I'm sure quite a few of us have.
So, what is it, a dragonmark bargain bin free-for-all with Jo Shmoe NPC of any race having any mark, or is it still exceedingly rare to find a dragonmark on any race it doesn't belong to (including 3.5 PHB races, not just dragonborn or tieflings)? Do we still get to have dragonmarked families that are effectively extra-national, extra-rich nobility, and that care about who their scions have kids with because it relates directly to the House's future profit? Or is all that fun, inbred intrigue gone in the name of progress?
Just looking for clarity on this one.
They specifically said that non 'dragonmarked' races developing dragonmarks was NOT NORMAL, its being marked by the prophecy directly, and personally.
Hey! That's exactly what I said :D Well I'm glad they're going with that explanation. As I said before it helps bump up the importance of PCs (and of course BBEGs that only PCs can deal with ;)). And given that PCs are suppose to be important in Eberron and D&D 4e, that makes perfect sense.
They will not be founding new houses or be expecting their children to develop marks THEY PERSONALLY have been marked by the prophecy.
Now that's interesting. I hadn't expected that.
Nived, did they say anything about the in-world frequency of dragonmarked races getting the dragonmark of a different race (like an elf getting the Mark of Warding)? If it's just a plot/PC only kind of thing, that's not so big a change. I mean, we DMs could've done that in our own campaigns pretty easily, and I'm sure quite a few of us have.
So, what is it, a dragonmark bargain bin free-for-all with Jo Shmoe NPC of any race having any mark, or is it still exceedingly rare to find a dragonmark on any race it doesn't belong to (including 3.5 PHB races, not just dragonborn or tieflings)? Do we still get to have dragonmarked families that are effectively extra-national, extra-rich nobility, and that care about who their scions have kids with because it relates directly to the House's future profit? Or is all that fun, inbred intrigue gone in the name of progress?
Just looking for clarity on this one.
The Dragonmarked Houses aren't going away, they are still what they have been, and they are still made up by the races they have been. The impression that I got, mind you I can't remember exact quotes, that it would not be a free grab bin. It would be possible for PCs to get dragonmarks that don't belong to their race... key word is possible, its not likely, nor is it in the world, the norm.
The Dragonmarked Houses aren't going away, they are still what they have been, and they are still made up by the races they have been. The impression that I got, mind you I can't remember exact quotes, that it would not be a free grab bin. It would be possible for PCs to get dragonmarks that don't belong to their race... key word is possible, its not likely, nor is it in the world, the norm.
From what I understand, it doesn't seem there is a norm. An elf with the Mark of Shadow is just as common as a Dwarf or Elf with it. And Gnomes have the Mark of Making as often as Humans.
This is definitely a huge change to the setting. And one that seems rather odd of a choice, as stated before. Why was Vol an abomination if Dragons can develop marks now, and how was the Mark of Death wiped out if it wasn't family based, but a person to person thing?
Now before someone calls on me yes I know that statement in the seminar summary says 'for advancement of the story see DDI' however this is taken slightly out of context, it was more for continued support of the setting. The Setting is remaining in 998yk.
The world is not going to be radically different. They said the book Dragonmarked is still perfectly canon. All of it is valid.
The Dragonmarked families and the Dragonmarked Houses are still the same as they were. Just now there are rules that will allow PCs and NPCs to develop marks not of their race. Which as I said above already exist in 3.5.
The Dragonmarked families and the Dragonmarked Houses are still the same as they were. Just now there are rules that will allow PCs and NPCs to develop marks not of their race. Which as I said above already exist in 3.5.
true ... up to a point - the article also says:
Will the new races have their own dragonmarked houses?
There will be no new dragonmarked houses introduced, with one exception. As part of making the dragonmarked houses more accessible, the race restrictions are being lessened if not outright removed.
It seems there will be at least one new Dragonmarked house.
sorry Hellcow!!). However, I got the impression that 4Eberron will not be changing radically. Beyond this, Eberron is not that heavily tied to specific 3e rules (citing a couple other game systems that work decently with Eberron), and 4e actually fits the feel of the world better.I should mention that he's not entirely okay with the recent changes to the skill challenge system, because the sheer difficulty rewarded players for taking skill-boosting mechanics, like certain powers and Skill Focus.
The fact that Dragonmarked and other 3e supplements are still canon should be a huge indicator of how much the setting will ultimately be changed.
The Dragonmarked families and the Dragonmarked Houses are still the same as they were. Just now there are rules that will allow PCs and NPCs to develop marks not of their race. Which as I said above already exist in 3.5.
Okay, that's what I wanted to hear. The summary was not very clear that this is a minor change just to expressly allow DMs and PCs to go against the norm. They made it sound like the norm itself would be axed! Luckily, that was just a clarity error, and the Houses will be staying as they are in my precious 3.5 Eberron collection. Hooray!
There will be no new dragonmarked houses introduced, with one exception. As part of making the dragonmarked houses more accessible, the race restrictions are being lessened if not outright removed.
Whoever wrote this original quote misinterpreted the statement. Race restrictions are being reduced in one case, and one case only: for the player characters. The dragonmarked houses remain as they always have. Iif you are an elf with the Mark of Shadow, you have the option of being in House Thuranni or House Phiarlan. It is now possible for you to be a tiefling with the Mark of Shadow, but you aren't part of House Thuranni or a tiefling dragonmarked house (because there isn't one), and most likely you can't pass on your mark. You would be considered a bizarre anomaly - and it's an open question as to whether Thuranni would want you to join them, or kill you as an aberration.
One of the goals of 4E Eberron is to explore the Prophecy in more depth, and to highlight the ways in which the PCs may be touched by the Prophecy. Dragonmarks are one such method. But just because we are making it possible for PLAYERS to do this does not in any way reflect a transformation of the world itself; PCs have always been exceptional, and that's all that this is about.
truIt seems there will be at least one new Dragonmarked house.
No... "with one exception" simply refers to the fact that it may be possible for PCs to develop an out-of-race mark.
As has been said, we're doing our best not to invalidate previous material. You shouldn't have to throw out your copy of Dragonmarked.
Whoever wrote this original quote misinterpreted the statement. Race restrictions are being reduced in one case, and one case only: for the player characters. The dragonmarked houses remain as they always have. Iif you are an elf with the Mark of Shadow, you have the option of being in House Thuranni or House Phiarlan. It is now possible for you to be a tiefling with the Mark of Shadow, but you aren't part of House Thuranni or a tiefling dragonmarked house (because there isn't one), and most likely you can't pass on your mark. You would be considered a bizarre anomaly - and it's an open question as to whether Thuranni would want you to join them, or kill you as an aberration.
One of the goals of 4E Eberron is to explore the Prophecy in more depth, and to highlight the ways in which the PCs may be touched by the Prophecy. Dragonmarks are one such method. But just because we are making it possible for PLAYERS to do this does not in any way reflect a transformation of the world itself; PCs have always been exceptional, and that's all that this is about.
Just to ask a question that can't be answered:
Does this mean that Aberrant marks have changed? Would said Tiefling with the mark of shadow be considered having an aberrant mark? Is the definition of what an aberrant mark is being changed?
Does this mean that Aberrant marks have changed? Would said Tiefling with the mark of shadow be considered having an aberrant mark? Is the definition of what an aberrant mark is being changed?
No.
One of the critical elements that defines an aberrant mark is that its appearance is unpredictable. If you have two people with aberrant marks that produce flame, those two marks might look nothing like one another. While the mark of healing is always the mark of healing, regardless of what race has it.
Furthermore, looking to 3E - if you were to transfer this racial ruling to your 3E campaign - another defining point of an aberrant mark is that it doesn't follw a single path as it advances. If you have a "least" aberrant mark that rpduces fire, and it advances, your next power COULD have something to do with fire, or it could be about fear. If you're a human with the Mark of Healing, it's the Mark of Healing from start to finish.
There will undoubtedly be those in the houses who consider an out-of-race marked PC to be an abomination, but it's still a true mark on the wrong race - not an aberrant mark.
So that would be what was happening in Matt Forbeck's series when Esprë manifested the Mark of Death, then... not necessarily because she's of the Line of Vol, but because she had a role in the Prophecy that required it to appear.
That would certainly be one way to run it. The marks aren't just genetic mutations; they are aspects of the Prophecy. By and large they are tied to the houses and their bloodlines, but characters with a vital role in the Prophecy could develop an unexpected mark - which is going to draw a lot of attention!
Great, now I can't get the image of a kobold with a dragonmark and a 'me big shot now, yip!' attitude because of it out of my head...
And he SHOULD have a big shot attitude! Again, the point here is that it is POSSIBLE for this to occur. We are allowing you to do it IF YOU WANT. However, it is in no way a casual thing, and should not change the dynamics created in the past. You COULD have a kobold with a dragonmark; but it may have been centuries - if ever - since another one was seen.
What if a player wants to manifest the Mark of Death. Will the mechanics of the Mark of Death appear in the Ebrron Player's Guide? Or, will the Eberron Campaign Guide contain tips for the DM to create their own Mark of Death?
Since the powers of the Mark of Death are one of the secrets of Eberron, I think nothing will be fleshed out.
Rekko
Since the powers of the Mark of Death are one of the secrets of Eberron, I think nothing will be fleshed out.
You're correct. We may have decided to let PCs bend the dragonmarked rules, but the decision to introduce something like the Mark of Death back into the world is a major thing that would require the PC to work things through with their individual DM - not something tossed in as a casual aside.
Whoever wrote this original quote misinterpreted the statement. Race restrictions are being reduced in one case, and one case only: for the player characters.
Huzzah. I don't admitting that if you were doing away with race restrictions on a world-wide scale there's a good chance I'd have ignored the change and simply kept the race restrictions except for players (for the exact same reason you've lifted the race restriction on players).
and most likely you can't pass on your mark.
For those who separate their campaigns in Eberron in years, you could have a descendant of the PC develop the same mark. Now did it develop the mark because they're a descendant? Or is it just a coincidence? A debate for the sages, but a pretty cool background point for the character.
One of the goals of 4E Eberron is to explore the Prophecy in more depth, and to highlight the ways in which the PCs may be touched by the Prophecy.
I'm looking forward to that :D I've got an overarching storyline for my campaigns (that will take years, upon years to tell) and the prophecy plays a central role in it. So seeing the 4e books take the same track is great :D
(and so it wouldn't do Vol any good even if she got ahold of her because it wouldn't be passed on).
Now that's an interesting idea.
Great, now I can't get the image of a kobold with a dragonmark and a 'me big shot now, yip!' attitude because of it out of my head...
Mesa going biga places nowsa.
You're correct. We may have decided to let PCs bend the dragonmarked rules, but the decision to introduce something like the Mark of Death back into the world is a major thing that would require the PC to work things through with their individual DM - not something tossed in as a casual aside.
What would be amazing is rules in the ECS on how to create our own Dragonmarks. Of course I'm sure a lack of rules has never stopped people in the past, but guidelines would certainly be a big help (although I don't expect you to confirm or deny whether or not we'll get them ;)).
Furthermore, looking to 3E - if you were to transfer this racial ruling to your 3E campaign - another defining point of an aberrant mark is that it doesn't follw a single path as it advances. If you have a "least" aberrant mark that rpduces fire, and it advances, your next power COULD have something to do with fire, or it could be about fear. If you're a human with the Mark of Healing, it's the Mark of Healing from start to finish.
Does this mean that Aberrant Lesser and Greater marks are now going to be in it from the start? This would definitely be nice, as I always felt it odd that these weren't included until Dragonmarked.
And a lot of people are being taught a valuable lesson about getting all worked up over very little information. :P
I think quote of the day goes to Lugnut for that little gem. One little rumour and it all goes bust, purple monkey dishwasher...
Cheerski for the clarification Hellcow. And I for one praise the higher involvement of the Draconic Prophecy. PC's are players of destiny, the break from the norm and something special, let's support them in that endeavour!
My guess is now anyone can marry into the houses and any heir of that union may bear the mark. Perhaps theres some mingling of blood as part of the wedding ceremony which makes the mark available to the one marrying in? I don't know.
What's more shocking to me is they implied there was a new dragonmarked house.
Will the new races have their own dragonmarked houses?
There will be no new dragonmarked houses introduced, with one exception.
?????
Sort of an idiotic way to answer that question. Nope! Well except for that one thing....
Isn't that a Yes then?
Anyways I'll wait to see but, I don't know about others, however it was my hope no timeline advancement would eliminate retcon crap like this being introduced. I'll see though but right now it seems like I'll be saving myself some money come 2009 with one less game book to buy.
I was for it (time jump) and you led the charge against the time jump.
Now instead of getting a thought out storyline that will explain changes we get the retcon.
I think Keith said he had marks popping up on odd races in his game, but this shows the prophecy as an uncontrollable force. I guess the new rules may let people who have "oddball" races as PCs be able to get the chance to be part of the Prophecy.
I am planning on running a game right now for 4E and am having no problems fitting the current world into the new rules. If they throw some stuff in the new book in 09 that screws with my game then I will just ignore it.
Read my sig about the X-rays and RPGs. Don't let gaming stuff bother you. That's what real life is for ;)
I was for it (time jump) and you led the charge against the time jump.
Now instead of getting a thought out storyline that will explain changes we get the retcon.
1) I reserve the right to complain about anything that would suck.
2) We learned the "retcon" is really no big deal and could barely be called that. Someone simply chose their words poorly. I'm still against the time jump for the reason you just said. Storylines should stick to novels.
3) Even were this a blatant retcon situation. I'd still prefer it to the time jump. As it is, it's subtle and well done and accomplished without a time jump.
I think Keith said he had marks popping up on odd races in his game, but this shows the prophecy as an uncontrollable force. I guess the new rules may let people who have "oddball" races as PCs be able to get the chance to be part of the Prophecy.
I am planning on running a game right now for 4E and am having no problems fitting the current world into the new rules. If they throw some stuff in the new book in 09 that screws with my game then I will just ignore it.
Read my sig about the X-rays and RPGs. Don't let gaming stuff bother you. That's what real life is for ;)
? I'm not bothered. It turned out to simply be a poor choice of words which is a relief but I prefer to voice concern sooner rather than too late. I have no problem with this new minor tweak to dragonmarks. It's something I might have even done/used for a story (as has been done already in novels and adventure modules) just now it's "official."
As for not worrying at all about what authors do to the setting because we can ignore it and that everyone will probably still buy Eberron no matter what (I wish that were true! I want Eberron to be a financial success to trump FR. Pipe dream I know.) let's try not to dredge up the old time jump arguments. That's all settled.
I for one don't mind at all if they got rid of the races restrictions to the dragonmarks. I'll still rule that the houses are predominantly of the races from the 3.5 eberron and that heroes can get any mark no matter what the race due to their heroic purpose in life.
I'll still rule that the houses are predominantly of the races from the 3.5 eberron and that heroes can get any mark no matter what the race due to their heroic purpose in life.
Just as a note, the plans of 4E Eberron are that the houses are entirely made up of the original races; the fluff in your copy of Dragonmarked should remain completely accurate. The exception for PCs is intended to allow PCs to explore a wider variety of stories, and a PC developing an out-of-house dragonmark is a historic event - something suggesting that the PC has a special destiny ahead.
As DM, you can obviously take things further; but as it stands, this is purely a PC thing, and even then a rare action that could have serious consequences (Cannith could easily see your halfling with the Mark of Making as a threat to their control of their unique resources, and seek to have him assassinated).
This exception for PCs is one more way of calling out the fact that PCs in Eberron may be exceptional individuals, the main characters of the novel or movie of the age; but it's not going to retroactively impact the composition of the houses as defined in 3.5 material.
I was for it (time jump) and you led the charge against the time jump.
Now instead of getting a thought out storyline that will explain changes we get the retcon.
So were you against the Eberron books that came out after the ECS that included places for new races? For instance, were you upset that there were always a new variety of shifter in northern Sarlona? Because that seems to be the sort of retcon going on between 3.5 and 4E as far as I can tell. Which I was always fine with in 3.5, and continue to be fine with re: 4E.
I think Keith said he had marks popping up on odd races in his game, but this shows the prophecy as an uncontrollable force. I guess the new rules may let people who have "oddball" races as PCs be able to get the chance to be part of the Prophecy.
Which was always an option in 3.5, since you could always just waive the racial restriction on a the Feats and let someone have at 'er. Only difference is that now that one in a trillion PC is suggested instead of not suggested. The chance of the appearance, canon-wise, is still the same as it was in 3.5 Eberron.
So were you against the Eberron books that came out after the ECS that included places for new races? For instance, were you upset that there were always a new variety of shifter in northern Sarlona?
Well, to be honest, even I wasn't entirely thrilled when they introduced the two new 'races' to Eberron (Daelkyr Half-Blood & Psiforged), though they are rare. Placing new races in the unknown areas isn't a real big deal to me, however. That's why I'm hoping the dragonborn will be natives of Argonessen, tieflings remain wierdos from the Demon Wastes, and eladrin...hmm.
I'm not sure how to introduce eladrin into Eberron without screwing with the status quo. Technically, the existed prior to 4e in Eberron, but not as a player race; they could be extraplanar, but then, why are they interested at all in Material Eberron...? If it's to acquire the newest flavor of magic, you'd think there'd be enough hanging around to mess with local economies and demographics.
Eagerly anticipating the 4ECS for answers...
Eladrins come from Thelanis, and they have their own culture and society. Thanks to the many easy travel manifest zone, many Eladrins have been travelling to the material plane, and even establish themselves either in communities of their own or mixing with other races.
I like the idea that giants created the elves and the drows by testing special breeding techniques with eladrins, thus the similarity between the races.
I'm still wandering if Eladrins would be welcomed in Aerenal. If they ever participated in the Elf Rebellion against the Giants and fled with their cousins. If they did, I would have to say that there cold be drows in Aerenal too since drow aren't united clans and some might wanted to join forces with the elves at the time.
Today, an Eladrin PC could either come from a family that has long established themselves in Khorvaire or even Xen'drik. Or, he could be a new comer, just travelled from Thelanis either by accident or willingly. Maybe Aerenal. I don't know if I should put some in Sarlona and Argonnessen, maybe since manifest zone could be anywhere.
For me, it's the Dragonborn who gives me the most trouble. I don't want them to come from Seren or Argonnessen. Xen'drik seems to easy, but Stormreach could be to the Xen'drik people, what Sharn is to the Khorvaire people, and thus explain the rare presence of Dragonborn on Khorvaire. I thought of adding some tribes/clans of dragonborn in Q'barra, Lhazzar and Mror, or go the other way with Shadow Marches, Droaam and Darguun. The first appeals to me more because I want to keep the Orcs the lonely race of the marshes.
Rekko
Technically, the existed prior to 4e in Eberron, but not as a player race; they could be extraplanar, but then, why are they interested at all in Material Eberron...?
As you say, Eladrin existed in Eberron prior to 4E as inhabitants of Thelanis, and if you want a safe story (IE one that won't contradict what we'll eventually reveal), that's the thing to use. Of all the planes, Thelanis is the easiest for people to travel to and from using manifest zones and coterminous periods; look in particular to the Greensingers and the Twilight Demesne.
The 4ECS will provide considerably stronger and more versatile hooks for all sorts of Eladrin PCs in Khorvaire (and an explanation for their limited presence in any 3E material). This may or may not be revealed in DDI before then; I don't know what WotC has planned in this regard.
That's why I'm hoping the dragonborn will be natives of Argonessen...
Just touching on what I recall James having said at the seminar, yes, there are dragonborn in Argonnessen. However, that's not the typical origin of a dragonborn PC. Among other things, the whole idea of Argonnessen is that it's the land of mystery, a place where, as of the start of your campaign, it's possible that no person of Khorvaire has been there and returned to tell the tale. Having a dragonborn PC from Argonnessen who can say "Argonnessen? Eh, it's not so bad. Let me tell you about my favorite diner..." pretty much whacks that mystery. So yes, dragonborn can certainly be found in the Vast and the Light of Siberys - but there will be other hooks provided for dragonborn PCs in Khorvaire. But again, like the eladrin, the goal is to give them a role that provides options to 4E players without feeling that it creates inconsistencies with previous material.
As a note, I'm playing a dragonborn PC in the Eberron campaign I'm in - so I certainly thing they have a solid place in the world. ;)
snip
Very interesting. Honestly, I think the placement of the new races is the one thing I'm most excited about with the new ECS. Well, that and possibly more information about the more savage areas of Khorvaire. :D
I can understand if you cannot share any more info with us: this is all extremely interesting anyway I agree! I remember though, a long time ago before the release of 4e, ArcTan (or was it someone else?) and others making a convincing argument about how 4e Eberron might conceivably put forward some sort of shared origin for the Eladrin and the Aereni elves. It sounds to me as if you have totally abandoned that particular angle and are now making the Eladrin strictly Thelanis-based/otherworldly?
The ability for any race to have any mark (if that's what it means) has been necessary for a while in my opinion, you can still have the houses be mostly made up of the races they were (just because a Tiefling can have the mark of Making doesn't mean there the norm) so I see no change to story and a great limit to role playing removed.
Tieflings with the Gatekeepers could make great role playing opportunities, not to mention how they could integrate with the silver flame (agents of the evil side, traitors to demon kind Etc.)
Lycanthropes no longer being contagious could be hard to account for with the purging and all, but I'm sure they can spin it somehow.
Change doesn't equal bad, just an opportunity to use your imagination and gain fresh new ideas.
Well, to be honest, even I wasn't entirely thrilled when they introduced the two new 'races' to Eberron (Daelkyr Half-Blood & Psiforged), though they are rare. Placing new races in the unknown areas isn't a real big deal to me, however. That's why I'm hoping the dragonborn will be natives of Argonessen, tieflings remain wierdos from the Demon Wastes, and eladrin...hmm.
I'm not sure how to introduce eladrin into Eberron without screwing with the status quo. Technically, the existed prior to 4e in Eberron, but not as a player race; they could be extraplanar, but then, why are they interested at all in Material Eberron...? If it's to acquire the newest flavor of magic, you'd think there'd be enough hanging around to mess with local economies and demographics.
Eagerly anticipating the 4ECS for answers...
The status quo needs to be screwed with, that's how things keep from becoming stale and bloated with minutia.
How much cooler for role playing to have Tieflings be part of the society that also has the church of the flame and gatekeepers, the Tiefling paladin of the flame which acts pious but secretly (perhaps unknowingly) serves the dark voice for instance is a much cooler role playing opportunity then just being outside society.
Mr. Baker,
I can understand if you cannot share any more info with us: this is all extremely interesting anyway I agree! I remember though, a long time ago before the release of 4e, ArcTan (or was it someone else?) and others making a convincing argument about how 4e Eberron might conceivably put forward some sort of shared origin for the Eladrin and the Aereni elves. It sounds to me as if you have totally abandoned that particular angle and are now making the Eladrin strictly Thelanis-based/otherworldly?
Just to get a jump on any response he might make, the idea put forward was that the origins of the elven race were in Thelanis, and that the Aerenal were either a) still Eladrin basically or b) that Elves and Drow were offshoots of Thelanis Eladrin, created by the Giants. But the idea that the Giants created Elves and Drow in the first place is one of those "mysteries of Eberron" that has been neither confirmed nor denied, and is a DM's tool. So the Eladrin appearing on the scene will likely bring with it the suggestion that they could be the origin, but nothing definitive will likely be said, as it shouldn't.
Lycanthropes no longer being contagious could be hard to account for with the purging and all, but I'm sure they can spin it somehow.
KB has said on his LiveJournal that this is easily explained as something that lycanthropy carried with it during that period and is no longer contagious, same as in 3.5 both afflicted and natural could spread it during that period despite that no longer being true in 998 YK. Same deal, essentially. Although, personally, I'm still going to differentiate between natural and afflicted and allow transmission in my own home campaign.
I guess my real question is: will the 4e Aereni Elves use Eladrin stats (i.e. will they be Eladrin with a different name) and the Elves of Valenar be the 4e "elves" or will the Eladrin be a separate race from both the elves of Aerenal and the elves of Valenar?
Thanks Dave - this seems rather intuitive from a design perspective and it is certainly easy to understand. Your response, however, made me think that I did not word my original question well.
I guess my real question is: will the 4e Aereni Elves use Eladrin stats (i.e. will they be Eladrin with a different name) and the Elves of Valenar be the 4e "elves" or will the Eladrin be a separate race from both the elves of Aerenal and the elves of Valenar?
Keith mentioned this somewhere (I think it was his blog). The Aerenal and Valenar will both remain as Elves and the Eladrin will be their own entity.
Keith mentioned this somewhere (I think it was his blog). The Aerenal and Valenar will both remain as Elves and the Eladrin will be their own entity.
http://gloomforge.livejournal.com/11787.html
And, of course, all thanks once again Keith for the quick and gracious response. You are the best resource Eberron could have. (I must say I also enjoyed the reasoning behind the decision to keep the Aereni -- i.e. the greatest elves of all time!!! -- separate from the Eladrin).
The LJ link gives about as much information as I can give. The fact that elves and gnomes have the Fey subtype will be acknowledged and addressed, but it's not something that will have a tremendous impact on established history. Perhaps there is a connection between the Aereni and eladrin, if you go back far enough - but the elves of Eberron are going to remain elves.
My theory as to this so-called connection between the Eladrin and the Aereni is that the giants probably got their slave stock from somewhere, so they enslaved some Eladrin and over the years, being removed from Thelanis, they became elves. This could also be by design of the giants, as they would try to breed out or change with magic, any of those pesky Eladrin powers since they don't want their slaves teleporting away when they're on the sacrificial altar. Drow who seem closer to Eladrin, were probably experimented upon by the giants and warped in such a ways that they, as well, stopped being Eladrin and became Drow.
Now, somewhere along the lines, the Eladrin decided to come to Eberron, and probably settled somewhere, so that is where the PC's come from easily.
A fey race entranced with the mystical power of nature would, I assume, be grossed out by any attempt to "circumvent" the laws of nature, even if it was infused with "goodly" intent. Aereni death cults and mummies just don't jibe with all that "enchanted dancing fey" flavor. What do you guys think?
I remember at first people are this board thought that the eladrin would just be placed on top of the Arenal elves and the valenar would be standard elves. I think that was before people saw how tied to the Feywild/Thelanis that Eladerin really were.
Heh, I was one of them. This was primarily because WotC said that in FR eladrin would be known as high elves. Course, I also liked the idea of elves just being giant-abducted displaced eladrin...
...though I won't be switching to 4E I might like the fluff associated with eladrin, tieflings and dragonborn enough to convert them and use them in my 3.5E...
The best thing is, there isn't really any conversion that needs to be done.
Eladrin = High elves.
Elves = Wood elves.
Tieflings = well, Tieflings (drop that stupid Cha penalty!).
Dragonborn = Just use the stats for a human converted into 3e dragonborn (Races of Dragon).
A fey race entranced with the mystical power of nature would, I assume, be grossed out by any attempt to "circumvent" the laws of nature, even if it was infused with "goodly" intent. Aereni death cults and mummies just don't jibe with all that "enchanted dancing fey" flavor. What do you guys think?
Should make for some fun situations, certainly.
So if I'm reading this right I can completely negate the ability for my players to take a mark outside the proper race? That's good to hear, since the idea doesn't set well with me (not that many of my players liked dragonmarks in the first place).
Well, as DM, you can always completely negate any player's ability to make a character in any particular way, or as it serves the story, force a particular ability on them as a curse or a boon. That's always been the case. If I wanted to have a goblinoid-only campaign, I could easily tell people that all the PHB races are completely disallowed, and if you don't want anyone taking any Dragonmarks at all, you can do that too. You could also do what some people have already talked about and allow only combinations that make "genetic" sense to have the Marks (i.e. a Khoravar descended from an Elf with Shadow getting that, or a human descended from a Khoravar with Detection getting that Mark, etc) although the Marks have never been about genetics anyway...or at least not majorly.
Point is, you, as DM, can do whatever you want, and I don't think 4Eberron is going to change that anymore than 3e did from 2e.
So if I'm reading this right I can completely negate the ability for my players to take a mark outside the proper race?
Dave the Brave is really on the point here. I don't know how it will be worded in the EPG. I don't know if it will say "You must get your DM's permission to do this" or anything like that; it might, but it might just say that it's a sign of the Prophecy. But it will be called out as being an unusual thing, and the DM can always place limits on a game... whether you forbid it outright or say "Hey, you can do it, but in my campaign either the Chamber, the Lords of Dust, or the Twelve WILL kill you within days of manifesting the mark... so I really wouldn't if I were you."
Since this race-exemption rule is pretty much only for PCs, presumably it's inherently a rare thing...rare like Siberys mark rare. Rarer than that. I would almost think the dragonmarked houses would usually be hostile toward such people. It's a thread to the order of things. In a way, they are aberrant marks. Real dragonmarks but aberrant for being on the wrong race.
Of course, members of the dragonmarked houses with an eye on, or an appreciation for, the Prophecy might think differently.
It really does depend on how you'd like the NPC to react, you can go several ways. There may be a sense of awe, the NPC gained his mark by blood, but the Prophecy, the shaping of the world itself has marked that PC. There could be the hostility described, but remember that the fear of Aberrants has declined a little. No current Aberrant mark has the power of the Aberrants of legend. You could even go apathetic, like "It's not the mark that makes me house Cannith, it's the blood and the family, things you do not and shall never have."
You're right in that understanding of the Prophecy is an important factor, which leads me to my question:
How widespread is knowledge of the existance of the Draconic Prophecy? I mean, yes, only powerful individuals like the Undying Court or Dragons study the Prophecy and endeavour to use it, but could you hear a commoner exclaim "by the accursed Draconic Prophecy?"
IOW, is the Draconic Prophecy a secret secret or a legendary/mythological secret?
Keith, I know you don't know what the wording will be like so far in advance, but do you think there'll be anything stating what a dragonmark's attitude might be when encountering a dragonmarked PC (bearing their mark) that's not of their race?
I don't know, but I tend to agree with Vael - it really depends on how you as DM would like them to react. If you want it to be difficult, you could say that the character is perceived as a threat. On the other hand, you could say that the character is seen as a miracle and welcomed into the house. If you look to House Tharashk and the Shadow Marches, the half-orcs are seen as a bridge between humans and orcs, and they of course set the precedent for multi-racial marks. House Medani might see your Detection-marked human as a threat... or they might see you as being bound to the destiny of their house, and go out of their way to convince you to be an ally.
I certainly expect it to be called out as an incredibly rare thing reflecting the touch of the Prophecy. And multiple possibilities might be described, as outlined above. But I don't think that we will say "Thuranni will kill you if you have their mark" or "Thuranni won't care" - because that's really tied to the type of campaign the DM wants to run.
Since this race-exemption rule is pretty much only for PCs, presumably it's inherently a rare thing...rare like Siberys mark rare.
I'd saying considerably rarer. So as you suggest, they might be seen as a threat to the established order... or they might be seen as a new resource that should be brought into the house ASAP. And as those familiar with the Prophecy would recognize this as the touch of the Prophecy, that could be one more reason for wanting the PC as an ally instead of a corpse.
How widespread is knowledge of the existance of the Draconic Prophecy?
Fairly widespread. Few mortals have any grasp of it, but most sages understand that it's out there. Setting aside the dragonmarks, you have the Prophecy Marks on the land itself, and those few cases where mortals have unlocked pieces of this. Check the sidebars on page 96 and 105 of City of Stormreach for an example of mortals with an interest in the Prophecy.
I certainly expect it to be called out as an incredibly rare thing reflecting the touch of the Prophecy. And multiple possibilities might be described, as outlined above. But I don't think that we will say "Thuranni will kill you if you have their mark" or "Thuranni won't care" - because that's really tied to the type of campaign the DM wants to run.
Of course, it's always up to the DM. But saying it's rare is one thing. I guess I just think some language giving a DM guidance on how the houses might react to seeing, say, a gnoll PC bearing the mark of their house would be very good. Even if it's just a couple of sentences. Would a dragonmarked house be suprised? Yes, because it's so rare, which we've established. But in general, would members/rulers of the house be....elated, enraged, horrified? Guidance on that is what I'm talking about.
Anyway, I'm just yapping here. I can see readers new to Eberron at the time this book comes up not quite realizing that the dragonmarked houses always want to control their marks and those who bear them, and that it's got to be a big deal to see someone not of their race or blood bearing their mark.
Except to House Vadalis, of course, who'd just invite them to join their family—same species or not. They're cool like that. ;)
I can see readers new to Eberron at the time this book comes up not quite realizing that the dragonmarked houses always want to control their marks and those who bear them...
Well, I think the role and impact of the dragonmarked houses in the setting in general is something that's going to be addressed more effectively in the EPG/ECG than it actually was in the ECS, so that should help.
Of course, it's always up to the DM. But saying it's rare is one thing. I guess I just think some language giving a DM guidance on how the houses might react to seeing, say, a gnoll PC bearing the mark of their house would be very good. Even if it's just a couple of sentences. Would a dragonmarked house be suprised? Yes, because it's so rare, which we've established. But in general, would members/rulers of the house be....elated, enraged, horrified? Guidance on that is what I'm talking about.
Anyway, I'm just yapping here. I can see readers new to Eberron at the time this book comes up not quite realizing that the dragonmarked houses always want to control their marks and those who bear them, and that it's got to be a big deal to see someone not of their race or blood bearing their mark.
Except to House Vadalis, of course, who'd just invite them to join their family—same species or not. They're cool like that. ;)
I think, in general, any given House would react with a mixture of trepidation and fear. They don't know if it'll be a bridge (like the half-orcs to Tharask) or some sort of new Aberrance. So the reactions, I think, would depend more on the actions of the player than anything else. And then combine that with what sages are saying about its appearance, as the Houses would definitely hire sages to look into the matter. And what those sages say is up to the DM. So, ultimately, what happens behind the scenes to motivate one reaction or another is the DM's discretion. You want it to be easy on them? Have the sages and mystics and clairvoyants predict favour and wealth and good luck to the House if they keep the individual alive and cultivate positive relationships. You want it to be hard? Predict doom and gloom.
And don't forget about the inter-House politics. If the Storm Marked Gnoll is brought up at the next meeting of the Twelve, the Lyrandar representative might fight for that PC, but the other Houses might not see it that way...and not because they fear an aberrance, but because they don't want Lyrandar to have a bridge like Tharask got. One race carrying it is profitable enough, why risk letting them have another race under their belt?
We see Lyrandar and Canniths touch on EBs economics but I would like to see more of Vadalis' beats competing with Cannith in the heavy machinery buisness and would like to see their beasts competing for the airship, seafaring and stagecoach business that the other Houses dominate.
I would like to see House Vadalis influence more in the new book Hellcow.
We see Lyrandar and Canniths touch on EBs economics but I would like to see more of Vadalis' beats competing with Cannith in the heavy machinery buisness and would like to see their beasts competing for the airship, seafaring and stagecoach business that the other Houses dominate.
There's certainly interesting Vadalis material in the new books, which you'll see when it comes out. With that said, I'll note that I've always seen Vadalis as the house least interested in competition (as compared to Tharashk aggressively competing with Deneith, the increasing tension between Lyrandar and Orien, the Thuranni-Phiarlan split, and the Cannith troubles). What's always been said about Vadalis is that it's a family first and a business second; that they are more interested in their work than in squeezing out all possible profits. As such, as opposed to competing with Orien in the stagecoach business, I see them as being close, valued Orien allies... in the same way that there are strong ties between Kundarak and Sivis, and the same way that Orien and Lyrandar both rely on Cannith to create their elemental vehicles. Orien relies on Vadalis to produce the beasts it uses with its coaches, and employs Vadalis handlers for its caravans. But I don't see Vadalis as having a great interest in trying to build up its own network of competing caravans, which would take a lot of infrastructure; as is, they get to focus on breeding and handling, the things they love, and leave managing caravans and warehousing goods to Orien.
It's also worth noting that even before the lightning rail, Orien has always had ways to make caravans travel more swiftly, something that should hopefully be covered in these books (because the mechanics actually work better for what I've had in mind in 4E than they did in 3E). So they aren't completely dependent on Vadalis; the two are just stronger together than they are apart.
But basically, I've always seen some houses as having strong rivalries, and others as having strong alliances; in the case of Vadalis and Orien, I've seen them as being closely allied as opposed to being enemies. I do see Vadalis as filling gaps in places where other services aren't available (using animal messenger to help a community without a Sivis message stone, for example) - but that doesn't mean that they are trying to undermine the other houses on a global scale.
Well who'da thunk that there was a Dragonmark house out there that might possibly compete for the Good alignment :P . In all seriousness I always saw them as fairly draconian and business orientated. Not outright evil, just apathetic most of the time. Sounds like Vadalis might actually have a pulse...
As a DM, I personally play them more as genius magical geneticists with "the ends justify the means" sorta morals. But maybe that's just me.
As a DM, I personally play them more as genius magical geneticists with "the ends justify the means" sorta morals. But maybe that's just me.
I'll just say that I see it as a house of many layers and leave it at that. My original point was solely directed towards their business practices - that they're generally more interested in breeding the perfect horse and then selling it to House Orien so they can get back to breeding the even more perfect horse than in creating a nationwide caravan business to compete with Orien, which takes time and resources away from the horses.
I'll just say that I see it as a house of many layers and leave it at that. My original point was solely directed towards their business practices - that they're generally more interested in breeding the perfect horse and then selling it to House Orien so they can get back to breeding the even more perfect horse than in creating a nationwide caravan business to compete with Orien, which takes time and resources away from the horses.
Hahaha, never said I don't agree with this...just that there are fun things going on behind the scenes too!
I mean this is the same house that "made" Skaravojen the pet and guardian of the keeper of the flame.
Honestly though, I'm just looking for a lot of rules conversions for things that I took for granted previously. I understand that a similar crunch to fluff ratio will have to be maintained for it to be a proper book but I'm hoping they tweak the numbers slightly in our favor because we have, well I have, a shelf full of 3.5 fluff that is decidedly easy to convert. :D
I'll just say that I see it as a house of many layers and leave it at that. My original point was solely directed towards their business practices - that they're generally more interested in breeding the perfect horse and then selling it to House Orien so they can get back to breeding the even more perfect horse than in creating a nationwide caravan business to compete with Orien, which takes time and resources away from the horses.
Ok then. In the newer books and articles I would like to see Orien, Lyrandar and even Cannith using Vadalis animals for their buisnesses. I think the wealthy of certain lands should be seen more using more unique Vadalis mounts. I think this visual in the new books will add even more to the campaign world.
Depends on how evil a DM you have.
I'd say it depends more on if the chosen pet is a druid animal companion or not. If not, there's a pretty good chance that enemies will chew your pet to pieces in combat.
But anyways, I second the notion of having magebred whales, elephants, and other crazy critters being mentioned (not necessarily statted out) and maybe shown in artwork.
I am curious about what they are going to do with their "eugenics program" thingy that Hellcow or someone else mentioned.
As mentioned before, how do you know that Vadalis is doing a Magebred Human Program? Clones? Superhumans? etc. As soon as eugenics comes into the picture, I get images of the clones from Star Wars or the Superhumans from Star Trek (Khan).
I remember reading something Keith said (maybe on his blog?) about some things that may be in the new EB. He mentioned something about a long lost villain or pirate, and I thought he mentioned some new villain that was "made" during the Last War. It read like a House Vadalis experiement gone wron and all I could think of was a new group of baddies in EB like Khan in Star Trek. I kinda liked the idea, alot!
Doesn't it fire the imagination???
From what I heard at the seminar this thread is about, the RPGA had no problem making Vadalis threatening in Mark of Heroes.
That was actually my RPGA adventure. However, I'll note that it specifically dealt with House Vadalis' actions during the War of the Mark - with the implication that they'd actually been operating under restrictions ever since because the other houses were horrified by the monsters they created during that conflict. So essentially, Vadalis has skeletons in the closet and darker potential than most people are aware of, because such programs have been supressed. And this - and other things mentioned on the thread - will certainly be touched on in 4E.
So essentially, Vadalis has skeletons in the closet and darker potential than most people are aware of, because such programs have been supressed. And this - and other things mentioned on the thread - will certainly be touched on in 4E.
This gave me the shivers. I'm giddy for 4Eberron.
I am 95% sure one of you two made these claims and am just sure where If they are true. Thanks. :D
This is to Hellcow. I thought I saw either you or James mention about some new things that will be in the 4E EB book. There was a mention of new villains, one of them being a Khan (Star Trek) type baddie that survived the War and another was a long lost Pirate lord that is going to mysteriously appear.
I am 95% sure one of you two made these claims and am just sure where If they are true. Thanks. :D
Dun Dun Dun Dunnnnnnn
There was a mention of new villains...
There will be new villains in the 4ECS, along with a closer look at some old villains who didn't get much attention. Note that this doesn't mean the setting is being transformed; any new threats are things that COULD have been mentioned in the next 3.5 sourcebook to come around, things that have a clear place in the world but just didn't get caught in the spotlight. This is one of the things that will help make the book useful to old players - it's not just a retread of old material, but also addresses underdeveloped or undeveloped ideas.
However, I haven't personally revealed any specifics, and for all the reasons I've given before, I'm not going to do so now. I'm happy with the shape of things, but it's still a long ways off.
Anyway the concept of some House Vadalis members trying to make their own economic boom with magically altered humans appealed to me greatly. They could all have the House brand on the side of their face or even just a V that marked them as Vadalis property. It would be Vadalis' answer to the Warforged.
Of course the whole thing failed and was swept under the carpet. Of course the process turned the people into meglomanical soldiers who want to take over all of the Nations. Of course a certain charismatic leader of these misfit mercs is alive and is planning a comeback! :D
I just need someone to stat up these new "monsters" for me. ;)
I could have swore someone dropped a hint as to what will possibly in the new book in regards to new villains.
And I think someone did... but I think that someone was Christopher Perkins, who's got the authority to leak whatever he wants. I on the other hand, have a tighter NDA. ;)
Anyway the concept of some House Vadalis members trying to make their own economic boom with magically altered humans appealed to me greatly.
And I'll just say that I've always liked the concept of a secret human magebreeding program, and leave it at that... for now. ;)
And I'll just say that I've always liked the concept of a secret human magebreeding program, and leave it at that... for now. ;)
You heard it here, people. Khan Noonien Singh LIVES!!!!!!!!!
Does that will bring Living X - on other power sources too?
You heard it here, people. Khan Noonien Singh LIVES!!!!!!!!!
Woah. Dr. Arik Soong as a Vadalis magebreeder. I just blew my own mind.
Woah. Dr. Arik Soong as a Vadalis magebreeder. I just blew my own mind.
Dr. Arik Soong magebreeding humans. However, let's say that his son or grandson works on Warforged????
;)
Dr. Arik Soong magebreeding humans. However, let's say that his son or grandson works on Warforged????
;)
hahaha, maybe Merrix marries and his kid manifests a Vadalis Mark, because Aaren d'Cannith was secretly the result of a tryst with a Brent Spiner-looking Vadalis Heir...oh man, this conversation is too dorky for me.
And I think someone did... but I think that someone was Christopher Perkins, who's got the authority to leak whatever he wants. I on the other hand, have a tighter NDA. ;)
And I'll just say that I've always liked the concept of a secret human magebreeding program, and leave it at that... for now. ;)
Cool, I thought it was somebody at wizards. ;)
Magebred humans soldiers scheming against the nations they were supposed to fight for seems like fun.
Thanks for the responses.
Ahh, here is Chris commenting on the magebred human on his blog
quote"— Writing has begun on the 4E Eberron campaign setting, which releases in 2009. James Wyatt and Keith Baker are exchanging emails like mad. I'm mostly just watching from the sidelines and making sure they don't add robots to the setting. As you've heard, we're not advancing the timeline, but we are making some minor tweaks and additions to (a) accommodate the 4E rules and (b) make the campaign material eminently plunderable. (Okay, "plunderable" isn't a word, but if you're a DM, you know what I mean.) We're adding some new villains, including a magebred human (that's right, a magebred human) of Cyran descent and a figure from Eberron's past that has returned from oblivion to wage war on the high seas. We're also removing some of the superfluous apostrophes from a few of the setting's proper nouns (although Q'barra will remain Q'barra). D&D Insider will be previewing many of the new features of the setting after June, as well as helping players and DMs continue their Eberron campaigns as 4E games."
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-991893.html
I just picked up the Item book and hope EB gives us Magebred companions or mounts in DDI or the EBCG.
hahaha, maybe Merrix marries and his kid manifests a Vadalis Mark, because Aaren d'Cannith was secretly the result of a tryst with a Brent Spiner-looking Vadalis Heir...oh man, this conversation is too dorky for me.
Too dorky or not dorky enough? That is what I want to know? ;)
So folks is the returning pirate lord someone we never heard before or you know who?
Depends on who you mean by you know who? I am think that it is a Khan like character who they tried to get rid of and is now plundering the high seas in revenge. But that's my 2 cps worth.
The Khan character and Pirate Lord are two different villains though. The pirate is a long lost character from history and the Khan guy is a magebred human.
And how do you know that they might not be the same person? Just because they say 'and' doesn't mean that it is 2 separate people. It could be the same with them saying that this person is both of those things. Ya never know.
And how do you know that they might not be the same person? Just because they say 'and' doesn't mean that it is 2 separate people. It could be the same with them saying that this person is both of those things. Ya never know.
new villains, including a magebred human (that's right, a magebred human) of Cyran descent and a figure from Eberron's past that has returned from oblivion to wage war on the high seas.
This (from Cims blog) is pretty claer that he is talking about two different villains.
18DELTA
-So how seamless will the Gods vs. Primordials angle be integrated into the Ebberron Setting?
Eberron is a unique setting; we're not going to bend over backwards to incorporate every aspect of core. The manner in which we deal with the gods (distant and mysterious) is going to remain the same. With that said, Eberron already has its own primeval struggle: the Overlords vs the couatls/dragons. For that matter, Thir holds that the first Sovereigns were ascended dragons who fought in that battle. So if you want to use a Primordial concept in Eberron, it's a fairly easy thing to re-map to Age of Demons.
Eberron is a unique setting; we're not going to bend over backwards to incorporate every aspect of core. The manner in which we deal with the gods (distant and mysterious) is going to remain the same. With that said, Eberron already has its own primeval struggle: the Overlords vs the couatls/dragons. For that matter, Thir holds that the first Sovereigns were ascended dragons who fought in that battle. So if you want to use a Primordial concept in Eberron, it's a fairly easy thing to re-map to Age of Demons.
So about as seamless as the Great Wheel and the Blood War between the Lower Planes was integrated into Eberron. :P
So about as seamless as the Great Wheel and the Blood War between the Lower Planes was integrated into Eberron. :P
LOL
Eberron is a unique setting; we're not going to bend over backwards to incorporate every aspect of core. The manner in which we deal with the gods (distant and mysterious) is going to remain the same. With that said, Eberron already has its own primeval struggle: the Overlords vs the couatls/dragons. For that matter, Thir holds that the first Sovereigns were ascended dragons who fought in that battle. So if you want to use a Primordial concept in Eberron, it's a fairly easy thing to re-map to Age of Demons.
-Cool, Mr. Cow from Hell. ;) I was wondering how the God/Primordial "stuff' would be dealt with. Thank you.
18DELTA
I think that he was trying to say that the God/Primordial aspect of core isn't already represented in Eberron and isn't going to get much, if any attention.
Yes and no. What I'm saying is that we are not going to add a primordial plotline to Eberron. However, I'm also saying that I think it's easy to simply shift terms and use the Overlords in place of Primordials when using non-Eberron specific material. For example, abominations. When you get down to it, the key idea of the abominations is that they were created as living weapons in a terrible war at the dawn of time, a war that shook the world. Does it really matter if that war was between Gods and Primordials or Dragons and Demon Rajahs?
So we aren't going to change Eberron in any way to cater to the god-primordial storyline. That's part of core, and one of the points of Eberron is to offer an alternative to straight core. However, I think that it should be easy to find a place for primordial-related stuff in the setting.
or you know who?
I have no idea who. Are you thinking of Lhazaar?
I have no idea who. Are you thinking of Lhazaar?
Yes.
I came back across this while searching for something altgether unrelated... but thought that with 4E Eberron less than two months away we could stand a refresher on 'what we know' is coming up.
Edit: Of course right when I post that message I remember. The Expeditionary Dispatch article in Dragon on Moridin the Fleshweaver's little village of cloned heroes. Lhazaar was a woman.
Somewhere along the line I got the notion in my head that the great human explorer Lhazaar was a woman. Though I can't remember why I think that.
Edit: Of course right when I post that message I remember. The Expeditionary Dispatch article in Dragon on Moridin the Fleshweaver's little village of cloned heroes. Lhazaar was a woman.
Yes, Lhazaar was a woman.
Strange, I got it from Dragons of Eberron. I think it was talking about a Black dragon(can't rember her name) who was banished from Argonessen to sarlona, disgiused herself as a Half-elf, met Lhazaar, befriended her, and then left to Khorvaire with her, leaving behind her mate and one true love. She then turned herself into a statue using flesh to stone. Ruffley thirty or so years before the Last War she became unpetrified. Now she harbors a secret longing, to be rejioned with her long lost mate. Neither knows the other is alive though. Romantic isn't it? :P