Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Tora_Zatarra May 15, 2013 19:11:18	Hi I have a shifter razorclaw barbarian and i had planned on having the longtooth trait and after that  having the shifter multi attack feat to reduce the penalty now my DM says that the shifter multi attack doesn't aply if a attack with both claws ant the attack with the bite; it only aplies if a use a melee weapon, because the feat states" using your natural attack in conjunction with another weapon", I stated that it doesn't make sense, after all a natural weapon is still a weapon. He also stated that the feat says "Shifter with the longtooth OR razorclaw trait", I stated that then, acording to him if i had the two traits I wouldn't be able to have that Feat...  Well, i am trying to gather some opinions  or at least some clarifications on this, it doesn't make sense to me that i can only use with a melee weapon.  Because let's see if a have  the two traits and the shifter multiattack at, for example level 11 i would make 3 attacks with a one handed weapon, then a off hand attack with a claw at -2 penalty and then another off hand attack with a  bite? at what penalty? IMO: when having two Natural weapons one will be defined as primary weapon, and the second will be the off hand attack with the defined  penalty -5 normally, with shifter multi attack -2. Opinions and clarifications? thanks in advance
#2 Syltorian May 16, 2013 4:03:44	I'd agree with you that a weapon is a weapon. It does not state in the description that it only works with manufactured weapons, or even melee weapons.  Now, as far as the rules are concerned: www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#... : "Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon. www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#... :"When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity. In other words, the Multiattack feat works just as you intend the Shifter Multiattack to work, for both multiple natural weapons and the combination natural-manufactured weapon., and has the same wording under benefits. Except that it requires three natural attacks rather than a shifter trait granting you a natural weapon. With Longtooth and Razorclaw, you qualify for Multiattack , so if your DM refuses to accept this comparison, chose Multiattack. It's not a [Shifter] feat, so you won't get the additional benefits, but it works for what you want to do. It'd be petty of your DM to force you down that alley, though. As you say, you need to define one weapon as primary. Additionally, for a Razorclaw shifter, the attack with a claw in combination with a manufactured weapon already takes only a -2 penalty, as per ECS:20, making the feat superfluous for manufactured weapons. Longtooth shifters take the usual -5.  As for his argument that the prerequisites for Shifter Multiattack are ""Shifter with the longtooth OR razorclaw trait" (and your answer), they are based on only one of two interpretations of the word "or". It can mean: "either, but not both", or, and that is the sense I would give it here, "at least one of these traits". (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_disjunctio...). So the prerequisites by no means rule out that a shifter with two traits qualifies and benefits from the feat.