Siberys Marks - an idea, likely in need of tweaking. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Siberys Marks - an idea, likely in need of tweaking.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Siberys
Jul 04, 2009 11:46:29 Well, the lack of siberys marks is certainly disappointing, so I decided to try to homebrew something of my own for it.

First I tried making a PP, but coming up with thematic powers that varied based on the mark was difficult, so I settled on a feat chain.

The idea is to make Siberys mark give you a normal mark feat, and also open up a chain of feats specifically for those with Siberys marks. In this draft, all of the following feats are paragon tier. I'm not sure on balance, either.

Siberys Mark [Dragonmark]
Benefit: You gain a non-aberrant dragonmark feat of your choice.

Channel the Prophecy
Prerequisites: Siberys Mark
Benefit: You have mastered and can perform through your dragonmark two of your dragonmark's rituals. At 16th level, 21st level, and 26th level, you master two more such rituals.

Scion of the Prophecy
Prerequisites: Siberys Mark
Benefit: Whenever you spend an action point or use a ritual through your dragonmark, you gain your choice of a +2 bonus to all your defenses until the beginning of your next turn, or a +5 power bonus to your next skill check (including any checks involved with the ritual you just cast).
#2
josephkell
Jul 04, 2009 13:33:20 Rituals generally take too long to perform during combat and definitely aren't measured in rounds. So Scion of Prophecy is just a +2 bonus to all defenses after using an action point.

Also throwing in more feats? And Siberys Mark is patently better than the original marks, so I think that is a bad design choice.

I think instead just saying that a person with the original feat just has the mark get bigger when the PC gets to higher tiers. Fix it in fluff.
#3
Siberys
Jul 04, 2009 13:52:20 Well, y'gotta remember that the Siberys Mark feat is only available at 11th level and higher. So, better, yes, but restricted. It's primarily the way it is so that a) I don't have to do a lot of work designing separate benefits for Siberys Marks and b) allow certain things to be usable only when one has a Siberys Mark. I'd probably put in a restriction stating that if you've had a standard mark, you can't "upgrade" to a Siberys Mark by retraining once you hit Paragon.

Other than feats or a PP, I don't know how else one could structure a Siberys Mark...

As for Scion of the Prophecy, out of combat it's essentially a +5 bonus to skill checks made when performing dragonmark rituals, but I wanted the feat to have an effect in-combat, and the old Siberys Heir PrC had action-point based benefits, so...

Having the mark get bigger as the character grows is a great solution for Lesser and Greater marks, but not for Siberys marks, because one could not develop a Siberys mark if one already had a standard mark. Of course, you could just say 'I've taken the Mark of Making feat. My mark is a siberys mark, with all of the social consequences thereof.' - but I'd like a mechanical benefit, too...
#4
tiwaztyrsfist
Jul 05, 2009 16:24:48 I really think it SHOULD be done as a PP.

It would take up an extra page, for the various powers, but it wouldn't be that hard or unprecedented. Consider the "Chosen" Epic Destiny from the FRPG, which has a full page of powers divided up by god.

Exactly what those powers should be, I don't know, but then, WotC isn't paying me, so I don't feel a need to worry about it right this second.
#5
Gilo
Jul 05, 2009 18:44:27 could save some page space by just referencing existing powers:

Siberys PP mark powers (select one):

Mark of Detection: True Seeing, Wizard utility 10
Mark of Finding: Mocking Footwork, Rakish Swashbuckler Utility 12
Mark of Handling: Companion Emplacement, Ranger utility 10
Mark of Hospitality: Astral Refuge, Cleric Utility 10
Mark of Making: Healing Figurine, Artificer Utility 10
Mark of Passage: Warlock's Leap, Warlock utility 10
Mark of Scribing: Word of Life, Bard Utility 10
Mark of Sentinel: Fell the Foe, Soldier of Conquest Utility 12
Mark of Shadow: Unseen Shot, Cloaked Sniper Utility 12
Mark of Storm: Sudden Storm, Spellstorm Mage Utility 12

Edit:
Mark of Healing: Healing Flesh of the Infected, Spellscarred Utility 16

* tho probably should make two powers per mark, where the power is not from a PP (level10).

Edit2: I better move some powers from class to PP
Mark of Detection: Devil's Sight, Tiefling Hellstalker Utility 12

Edit3:
Mark of Warding: Dragon Scales, Coronal Guard Utility 12

* need more work...
#6
AvonRekaes
Jul 07, 2009 12:51:05 If I were to do a Siberys PP, I'd make the path features identical for all marks and focus on being important to the prophecy. (Something like "Prophetic Action: When spending an Action Point...."). Then I'd make 3 powers for every dragonmark.

It wouldn't be much worse than the Chosen ED, with like, what, 20 differenty utility powers?
#7
Siberys
Jul 07, 2009 13:02:46 That's 36 powers (39 if you count each of the shadow houses separately) - That's half of a full class. LOTS of work.

Hence, the feat option seemed more palatable. :P
#8
AvonRekaes
Jul 07, 2009 13:32:58 I wouldn't count the shadow houses seperately. This is about the Mark, afterall, not the houses (Like the respective house PPs we already have).

You can cut down on the number of powers by making each mark only have a unique Utility and Daily. After all, the original Heir of Siberys prestige class didn't give you anything specific for your mark until second level.

Then that'd be 24 powers. Not saying it wouldn't be weird, but using Chosen as an example, there's precedent.
#9
Siberys
Jul 07, 2009 13:35:27 True, true.

I'd still give the appropriate mark feat as an 11th level feature. Seems appropriate, y'know?
#10
tiwaztyrsfist
Jul 07, 2009 13:57:49 Well, we wouldn't need ALL three powers to be unique for each draonmark.

Class Features
Lvl 11 - Mark of Syberis - Select a Dragonmark feat, you gain that feat, but are considered to have the Syberis Mark of that type, not just the regular dragonmark. You gain the normal benefits of that feat.
Lvl 11 - Strength of Syberis - You gain a +5 bonus to skill checks to preform rituals granted by your dragonmark. You are also considered to be 1 level higher for the purposes of any ritual granted by your mark that has an effect limited by level.
Lvl 11 - Action of Syberis - You may spend an action point to regain the use of any of the powers granted by the paragon path instead of taking an extra action.
Lvl 16 - Syberis Mastery - Once per day, you may preform a ritual granted by your dragon mark that does not have a permanent effect for half cost, rounded down.

Utility (Lvl 12)
Swiftness of Syberis
Daily * Arcane
Standard Action
You preform 1 ritual granted to you by your dragonmark with a casting time of 10 minutes or less as part of this standard action.

And so on.
#11
AvonRekaes
Jul 07, 2009 16:05:18
True, true.

I'd still give the appropriate mark feat as an 11th level feature. Seems appropriate, y'know?

It doesn't seem appropriate to me given 3e lore on dragonmarks. I'm not sure if/when we get official 4e mechanics they'll keep that lore, but how it goes is that Siberys marks are mutually exclusive with lesser marks. You could not have the Least/Lesser/Greater mark powers if you were an Heir of Siberys. You could not use dragonmark focus items, like airship helms, that required a Least/Lesser/Greater mark power.

In fact the design of each Siberys mark includes an empty space in the shape of the Least mark design (Now the only official mark design for each dragonmark). Meaning, you don't have that mark.

So no, I probably wouldn't give a Siberys Heir PP the appropriate dragonmark feat. In fact, I'd have "Must not have a dragonmark feat" as a prerequisite, and a special requirement for "Must not ever select a dragonmark feat".

Also:

Crazy thought. Each Mark's first unique power, their Utility, would be a ritual, except no cost and casting time of one standard action. Give Mark of Passage an instant Linked Portal or Planeshift, give the Mark of Storm an instant Control Weather, etc. etc.
#12
Siberys
Jul 07, 2009 19:17:08 What I'm saying is;

prereq: Must not have a dragonmark.
Siberys Mark (11th level): You gain a dragonmark feat of your choice as a bonus feat.

As a Siberys Mark is a high-powered version of a normal mark, why wouldn't you get the same sort of benefits (except, perhaps, on a larger scale)? Add onto that whatever other abilities you feel are appropriate (some prophecy related things, utilities/rituals/attacks based on mark, etc.) and you've got the path. At least, that's how I'd build it.

EDIT: As for your utility idea, I like it, but you'd have to be careful about which ritual. No EMI for the Mark of Making, for example.
#13
AvonRekaes
Jul 08, 2009 13:13:35
As a Siberys Mark is a high-powered version of a normal mark

But it isn't.

That's my point. As per 3e Eberron lore, the Siberys Mark is NOT just a high-powered version of a normal dragonmark. In fact, it excludes the normal mark from its physical design. You literally do NOT have the weaker mark. In 3e, Siberys Marked heirs of Storm could not pilot airships, because the airship focus items required you to have the power of the Least Mark of Storm, which your Siberys mark didn't have and prohibited you from ever having.

That's why I would not give the Siberys marked character the dragonmarked feat for his mark. That's why I would, in fact, prohibit him from ever having it.

That's the way it was done in 3e, and I'd like to keep it for 4e.

As for the ritual-utilities, I would be extremely careful with which one I picked, yeah. Mark of Making would probably be a creation ritual, but definately not EMI, DMI, or TE.
#14
Siberys
Jul 08, 2009 19:15:57 Think about the individual abilities of the feat. Why wouldn't a Sivis Siberys heir know more languages, or a Lyrandar Siberys Heir be able to fly better? Why wouldn't a Medani Siberys Heir be extra-perceptive? These abilities are already given in the mark feats, so the easiest way to distribute them would be as a bonus feat. Since lower level marks in 4e are simply marks on lower level characters, this doesn't conflict with existing canon. (As for the wheel of wind and water example, well, you got me there. I'd've ruled that any character with the right mark, regardless of which SLA he had, could use such a device, though it'd technically have been a house rule.)

What I'm saying is, if we don't need greater marks, for example, because the mark feats naturally scale with the ritual benefits, why shouldn't the Siberys mark be able to follow suit? So long as the heir gets the feat as part of being a Siberys Heir - such as through a class feature - and not before becoming Siberys Heir, there should be no problem.
#15
AvonRekaes
Jul 08, 2009 23:51:55 Because a Siberys Mark of Scribing lets you Comprehend Languages at-will at no cost. A Siberys Mark of Storm lets you fly period without having to rely on something else to give you flight. A Siberys Mark of Detection would let you see invisible creatures and whatnot.

What I'm saying is that the Lesser and Greater "tiers" of Dragonmark were removed because a Mark is now just supposed to grow into them as you level up. However, it's part of the Eberron setting that you can't just grow into the Siberys mark, and that Siberys marks do things above and beyond the regular marks.

Siberys Marks, at least if you're trying to keep their niche from 3e and translate it faithfully over, is that they are seperate and above regular marks. They can't do the same things as regular marks, but what they CAN do is amazing.

As an example, the 3e Siberys Mark of Scribing gave you something like Symbol of Pain. The Siberys Mark of Storm gave you Storm of Vengence. These aren't things the regular marks could do. However, the Siberys Mark of Scribing couldn't be used to notarize a Letter of Credit, and a Siberys Mark of Storm couldn't be used to command an elemental helm. That's just how things were.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Siberys Jul 04, 2009 11:46:29	Well, the lack of siberys marks is certainly disappointing, so I decided to try to homebrew something of my own for it. First I tried making a PP, but coming up with thematic powers that varied based on the mark was difficult, so I settled on a feat chain. The idea is to make Siberys mark give you a normal mark feat, and also open up a chain of feats specifically for those with Siberys marks. In this draft, all of the following feats are paragon tier. I'm not sure on balance, either. Siberys Mark [Dragonmark] Benefit: You gain a non-aberrant dragonmark feat of your choice. Channel the Prophecy Prerequisites: Siberys Mark Benefit: You have mastered and can perform through your dragonmark two of your dragonmark's rituals. At 16th level, 21st level, and 26th level, you master two more such rituals. Scion of the Prophecy Prerequisites: Siberys Mark Benefit: Whenever you spend an action point or use a ritual through your dragonmark, you gain your choice of a +2 bonus to all your defenses until the beginning of your next turn, or a +5 power bonus to your next skill check (including any checks involved with the ritual you just cast).
#2 josephkell Jul 04, 2009 13:33:20	Rituals generally take too long to perform during combat and definitely aren't measured in rounds. So Scion of Prophecy is just a +2 bonus to all defenses after using an action point. Also throwing in more feats? And Siberys Mark is patently better than the original marks, so I think that is a bad design choice. I think instead just saying that a person with the original feat just has the mark get bigger when the PC gets to higher tiers. Fix it in fluff.
#3 Siberys Jul 04, 2009 13:52:20	Well, y'gotta remember that the Siberys Mark feat is only available at 11th level and higher. So, better, yes, but restricted. It's primarily the way it is so that a) I don't have to do a lot of work designing separate benefits for Siberys Marks and b) allow certain things to be usable only when one has a Siberys Mark. I'd probably put in a restriction stating that if you've had a standard mark, you can't "upgrade" to a Siberys Mark by retraining once you hit Paragon. Other than feats or a PP, I don't know how else one could structure a Siberys Mark... As for Scion of the Prophecy, out of combat it's essentially a +5 bonus to skill checks made when performing dragonmark rituals, but I wanted the feat to have an effect in-combat, and the old Siberys Heir PrC had action-point based benefits, so... Having the mark get bigger as the character grows is a great solution for Lesser and Greater marks, but not for Siberys marks, because one could not develop a Siberys mark if one already had a standard mark. Of course, you could just say 'I've taken the Mark of Making feat. My mark is a siberys mark, with all of the social consequences thereof.' - but I'd like a mechanical benefit, too...
#4 tiwaztyrsfist Jul 05, 2009 16:24:48	I really think it SHOULD be done as a PP. It would take up an extra page, for the various powers, but it wouldn't be that hard or unprecedented. Consider the "Chosen" Epic Destiny from the FRPG, which has a full page of powers divided up by god. Exactly what those powers should be, I don't know, but then, WotC isn't paying me, so I don't feel a need to worry about it right this second.
#5 Gilo Jul 05, 2009 18:44:27	could save some page space by just referencing existing powers: Siberys PP mark powers (select one): Mark of Detection: True Seeing, Wizard utility 10 Mark of Finding: Mocking Footwork, Rakish Swashbuckler Utility 12 Mark of Handling: Companion Emplacement, Ranger utility 10 Mark of Hospitality: Astral Refuge, Cleric Utility 10 Mark of Making: Healing Figurine, Artificer Utility 10 Mark of Passage: Warlock's Leap, Warlock utility 10 Mark of Scribing: Word of Life, Bard Utility 10 Mark of Sentinel: Fell the Foe, Soldier of Conquest Utility 12 Mark of Shadow: Unseen Shot, Cloaked Sniper Utility 12 Mark of Storm: Sudden Storm, Spellstorm Mage Utility 12 Edit: Mark of Healing: Healing Flesh of the Infected, Spellscarred Utility 16 * tho probably should make two powers per mark, where the power is not from a PP (level10). Edit2: I better move some powers from class to PP Mark of Detection: Devil's Sight, Tiefling Hellstalker Utility 12 Edit3: Mark of Warding: Dragon Scales, Coronal Guard Utility 12 * need more work...
#6 AvonRekaes Jul 07, 2009 12:51:05	If I were to do a Siberys PP, I'd make the path features identical for all marks and focus on being important to the prophecy. (Something like "Prophetic Action: When spending an Action Point...."). Then I'd make 3 powers for every dragonmark. It wouldn't be much worse than the Chosen ED, with like, what, 20 differenty utility powers?
#7 Siberys Jul 07, 2009 13:02:46	That's 36 powers (39 if you count each of the shadow houses separately) - That's half of a full class. LOTS of work. Hence, the feat option seemed more palatable. :P
#8 AvonRekaes Jul 07, 2009 13:32:58	I wouldn't count the shadow houses seperately. This is about the Mark, afterall, not the houses (Like the respective house PPs we already have). You can cut down on the number of powers by making each mark only have a unique Utility and Daily. After all, the original Heir of Siberys prestige class didn't give you anything specific for your mark until second level. Then that'd be 24 powers. Not saying it wouldn't be weird, but using Chosen as an example, there's precedent.
#9 Siberys Jul 07, 2009 13:35:27	True, true. I'd still give the appropriate mark feat as an 11th level feature. Seems appropriate, y'know?
#10 tiwaztyrsfist Jul 07, 2009 13:57:49	Well, we wouldn't need ALL three powers to be unique for each draonmark. Class Features Lvl 11 - Mark of Syberis - Select a Dragonmark feat, you gain that feat, but are considered to have the Syberis Mark of that type, not just the regular dragonmark. You gain the normal benefits of that feat. Lvl 11 - Strength of Syberis - You gain a +5 bonus to skill checks to preform rituals granted by your dragonmark. You are also considered to be 1 level higher for the purposes of any ritual granted by your mark that has an effect limited by level. Lvl 11 - Action of Syberis - You may spend an action point to regain the use of any of the powers granted by the paragon path instead of taking an extra action. Lvl 16 - Syberis Mastery - Once per day, you may preform a ritual granted by your dragon mark that does not have a permanent effect for half cost, rounded down. Utility (Lvl 12) Swiftness of Syberis Daily * Arcane Standard Action You preform 1 ritual granted to you by your dragonmark with a casting time of 10 minutes or less as part of this standard action. And so on.
#11 AvonRekaes Jul 07, 2009 16:05:18	True, true. I'd still give the appropriate mark feat as an 11th level feature. Seems appropriate, y'know? It doesn't seem appropriate to me given 3e lore on dragonmarks. I'm not sure if/when we get official 4e mechanics they'll keep that lore, but how it goes is that Siberys marks are mutually exclusive with lesser marks. You could not have the Least/Lesser/Greater mark powers if you were an Heir of Siberys. You could not use dragonmark focus items, like airship helms, that required a Least/Lesser/Greater mark power. In fact the design of each Siberys mark includes an empty space in the shape of the Least mark design (Now the only official mark design for each dragonmark). Meaning, you don't have that mark. So no, I probably wouldn't give a Siberys Heir PP the appropriate dragonmark feat. In fact, I'd have "Must not have a dragonmark feat" as a prerequisite, and a special requirement for "Must not ever select a dragonmark feat". Also: Crazy thought. Each Mark's first unique power, their Utility, would be a ritual, except no cost and casting time of one standard action. Give Mark of Passage an instant Linked Portal or Planeshift, give the Mark of Storm an instant Control Weather, etc. etc.
#12 Siberys Jul 07, 2009 19:17:08	What I'm saying is; prereq: Must not have a dragonmark. Siberys Mark (11th level): You gain a dragonmark feat of your choice as a bonus feat. As a Siberys Mark is a high-powered version of a normal mark, why wouldn't you get the same sort of benefits (except, perhaps, on a larger scale)? Add onto that whatever other abilities you feel are appropriate (some prophecy related things, utilities/rituals/attacks based on mark, etc.) and you've got the path. At least, that's how I'd build it. EDIT: As for your utility idea, I like it, but you'd have to be careful about which ritual. No EMI for the Mark of Making, for example.
#13 AvonRekaes Jul 08, 2009 13:13:35	As a Siberys Mark is a high-powered version of a normal mark But it isn't. That's my point. As per 3e Eberron lore, the Siberys Mark is NOT just a high-powered version of a normal dragonmark. In fact, it excludes the normal mark from its physical design. You literally do NOT have the weaker mark. In 3e, Siberys Marked heirs of Storm could not pilot airships, because the airship focus items required you to have the power of the Least Mark of Storm, which your Siberys mark didn't have and prohibited you from ever having. That's why I would not give the Siberys marked character the dragonmarked feat for his mark. That's why I would, in fact, prohibit him from ever having it. That's the way it was done in 3e, and I'd like to keep it for 4e. As for the ritual-utilities, I would be extremely careful with which one I picked, yeah. Mark of Making would probably be a creation ritual, but definately not EMI, DMI, or TE.
#14 Siberys Jul 08, 2009 19:15:57	Think about the individual abilities of the feat. Why wouldn't a Sivis Siberys heir know more languages, or a Lyrandar Siberys Heir be able to fly better? Why wouldn't a Medani Siberys Heir be extra-perceptive? These abilities are already given in the mark feats, so the easiest way to distribute them would be as a bonus feat. Since lower level marks in 4e are simply marks on lower level characters, this doesn't conflict with existing canon. (As for the wheel of wind and water example, well, you got me there. I'd've ruled that any character with the right mark, regardless of which SLA he had, could use such a device, though it'd technically have been a house rule.) What I'm saying is, if we don't need greater marks, for example, because the mark feats naturally scale with the ritual benefits, why shouldn't the Siberys mark be able to follow suit? So long as the heir gets the feat as part of being a Siberys Heir - such as through a class feature - and not before becoming Siberys Heir, there should be no problem.
#15 AvonRekaes Jul 08, 2009 23:51:55	Because a Siberys Mark of Scribing lets you Comprehend Languages at-will at no cost. A Siberys Mark of Storm lets you fly period without having to rely on something else to give you flight. A Siberys Mark of Detection would let you see invisible creatures and whatnot. What I'm saying is that the Lesser and Greater "tiers" of Dragonmark were removed because a Mark is now just supposed to grow into them as you level up. However, it's part of the Eberron setting that you can't just grow into the Siberys mark, and that Siberys marks do things above and beyond the regular marks. Siberys Marks, at least if you're trying to keep their niche from 3e and translate it faithfully over, is that they are seperate and above regular marks. They can't do the same things as regular marks, but what they CAN do is amazing. As an example, the 3e Siberys Mark of Scribing gave you something like Symbol of Pain. The Siberys Mark of Storm gave you Storm of Vengence. These aren't things the regular marks could do. However, the Siberys Mark of Scribing couldn't be used to notarize a Letter of Credit, and a Siberys Mark of Storm couldn't be used to command an elemental helm. That's just how things were.