Is the Church of Silver Flame accepting of Warforged? I'm creating a warforged Paladin but I'm unsure as to what religon to realte it to... I would like to have it take soem levels in Exocist of the Silver Flame... so ya, any ideas?
SorryI'm so vague... :S
The church is accepting, I mean, they accept shifters for cryin out loud, and the church practically wiped out the shifters ancestors, but they believe such races as shifters, warforged, monstrous races to be innately evil( no idea why). So these such races are ususally constantly atoneing for their "sin" of existing and trying to prove themselves worthy to the Flame.
The church is accepting, I mean...but they believe such races as shifters, warforged, monstrous races to be innately evil( no idea why).
Actually, I don't believe that's necessarily true. I'll refer you to a couple of lengthy posts/comment threads on Keith's LiveJournal for a better explanation of the Church's views on evil than I could give:
http://gloomforge.livejournal.com/
Start with the post on April 3 and work your way up, being sure to read through the comment threads, as Keith expounds quite a bit in those. Some very good stuff in there, IMO.
But to adress you Games_R_Life, maybe your warforged could be part of that Penitent Brothers sect, and seeking acceptence within the church. Yeah warforged were made to kill, but maybe yours is doing it for a noble cause, not just due to "programming".
Thanks again! :D
I can dig up Crucible's backstory for you if you like.
I would greatly appreciate that!
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=5752641&postcount=4
I really need to go back and rewrite it.
Nor can I find anywhere in those two books that states that the Church considers warforged to be soulless, but I could be missing something. If you have page references, that would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
So a 'free' WF from another nation isnt going to be clapped in irons as soon as he enters Thrane, and the CotSF doesnt specifically forbid them in its ranks, but a "Thranish" WF will have to have a good backstory to explain why he isnt digging ditches somewhere...
DocB
:88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
While the CotSF may ostensibly be accepting of a warforged cleric or paladin (I mean, hey, he's got Divine spellcasting or Paladin abilities, so it's hard to argue on some level), there will likely be a fair amount of conflict from specific sects within the CotSF. Just like there's purist sects that don't like shifters on account of their (weak) lycanthropic blood ties, there could easily be some sects within the CotSF that are similarly offended by the concept of a warforged cleric or paladin. To them, it'd be like having a clerically-invested tank or backhoe.
And depending on how fanatical they are, they may disbelieve that a Warforged Silver Flame Paladin derives his power from the Silver Flame itself. If they're of the paranoid delusional type, they may think it's all a clever hoax - and the Warforged has a hidden wand of CLW hidden on his person, that he invokes when he's laying on hands. Or they may just find him a heretical abomination on general principle. Perhaps there's even a few violent extremists that may act on this...
But then, you might have adherents that fall on the other side of the spectrum, too. If the Flame is all about beating down Evil, Warforged are demonstrably better at it than many - they are tireless in their struggle. Who's to say that the spark that gives Warforged life isn't an infusion of the Flame Itself?
I'll start off by quoting the Warforged Dragonshard:
The Silver Flame: The Church of the Silver Flame has much to offer the warforged. The Flame itself is not an anthropomorphic deity, and it is not supposed to have created or shaped human civilization. Instead, it can guide a warrior and empower her in the battle against evil. Warforged that fear death may take comfort in the concept of immortality through the Flame, since noble souls are said to bond with the Flame after death. Most importantly, the church is a militant order, and for the warforged soldier who feels lost without a war, the Church of the Silver Flame offers an anchor and a chance to take part in a battle that will never end -- the struggle against evil itself.
Many in the church still feel that the warforged do not have souls and are not the equals of the true servants of the Flame. However, as more warforged join the church, cardinals, ministers, and templars alike are being impressed with the dedication and good works performed by these tireless servants of the light.
So essentially, as long as the WARFORGED believes that he has a soul, the doctrine of the Church may appeal to him, even if most priests will tell him that it's a futile quest and that he has no soul. Still, soulless or not, it's better that he do good works than evil.
But let's explore that basic belief. One of the principles of the faith is that noble souls join the Flame after death. It's not that the priests challenging the existence of warforged souls despise warforged or believe that they are incapable of moral or ethical behavior; it's simple logic. The warforged were made by Cannith tools. Surely House Cannith doesn't have the ability to create a soul. Therefore, the warforged don't have souls – just as few people expect a bicycle to have a soul. They aren't evil. They aren't flawed. They're simply artificial beings – tools created by mortal hands, and therefore incapable of possessing an immortal soul.
With that said, as the Dragonshard says, some of the moderates in the church are beginning to question this belief. Surely Cannith cannot create a soul; surely the warforged do not, by default, possess souls. But perhaps, it is possible for them to find a bond to the Flame through noble actions – to develop a soul, even if they weren't born with one. Not a common belief, but one that is out there. It will be hard for a warforged to rise to any significant position in the Church without strong backing from a non-warforged follower who believes in this doctrine – but there are some of them out there.
Meanwhile, over in Karrnath, the warforged obviously have issues with the Blood of Vol. As noted in the article, those warforged who simply see the faith as a war against death often believe that they themselves are superior to humans in this regard. But one of the core principles of the Blood of Vol is the idea of the Divinity Within - the idea that mortal blood holds the spark of divinity within it. Clerics can debate whether warforged have souls; but no one can argue the fact that they don't have blood (at least, not as humans understand it). It's unknown whether warforged can join the Silver Flame, but they can't achieve true communion with the Blood (though they can still be misled by promises of corrupt priests). Which is, in turn, a reason why Karrnath is another place in which the warforged are generally seen as tools as opposed to people; though not the dominant faith, the Blood of Vol remains an influential belief, and by its principles warforged do not have the divine potential of mortals.
(Thrane isn't) the only nation that sees the Warforged that way, Karnath does it too.
Indeed. It's less about religion and more of a practical logic. Just over thirty years ago, there were no true warforged period. They exist because the nations commissioned them as weapons of war. Despite their sentience, most Thranes and Karrns do not see them as truly living creatures; they are artificial beings designed to serve the country, and paid for by the taxes of the nation. The fact that they possess neither blood or (by popular belief) is just one more factor that causes people to see them as tools as opposed to equals. While I hate the broad "warforged are robots" stereotype, this is a place where it works reasonably well. It's not about people being cruel to warforged or hating warforged; it's about them seeing no reason why anyone WOULD think of them as being equal to the beings who created them. Does the chess playing community actually see Deep Blue as an equal member, regardless of its skill?
With that said…
But any WF walking into Flamekeep had better be ready to be treated like a black man walking into downtown 1950's Mobile Alabama.
I don't really see it that way, personally. For many, the words "indentured servitude" conjure the image of the African slave trade and institutionalized American slavery. But that involved humans enslaving humans, and it was an institution that lasted for centuries before being forcibly abolished through a bitter war. The simple fact that the warforged AREN'T human - they don't eat, don't drink, aren't going to have sex with our women (not to mention the **** of slaves by slave-owners, illegitimate children, and the like), and so on and so on mean that humans are going to see them in a very different way. Beyond this, few people ever owned warforged; it's not like I had warforged working on my plantation until that thriced-damned Treaty of Thronehold took 'em away from me. In Thrane and Karrnath, the warforged worked as soldiers for the nation. Today, most are still serving the nation or some guild that the nation passed them to, performing manual labor, industrial work, or security. The majority of them are content to do this work, because they like the structure, don't really understand the nature of freedom, and have their needs met by the job. Others chafe at their servitude – but nonetheless, within these countries, most warforged are still employed in the service of the nation.
So in my opinion, a warforged walking down the streets of Thrane isn't likely to be randomly derided or picked on. The Thranes aren't going to organize lynch mobs. Why would they? Most likely, the warforged is still employed by a national organization. What he will deal with are the following things.
Warforged are Dangerous. Any warforged can inflict lethal damage with its bare hands. Any armored warforged is tougher than a normal human, not to mention the fact that most have some combat training. Far from picking on them, most normal citizens are going to try to avoid them - because a warforged with a decent Strength can cripple a commoner with a single blow. Normal people aren't going to call warforged names; they're not going to talk to them at all. Meanwhile, guards are going to keep a very close eye on any unemployed warforged, and want to know what business he has. It's sort of like being a well-known murderer on parole with built in armor and weapons; even though you're out on good behavior, peaceful people are going to be afraid of you.
You Want What? It's not a matter of a restaurant not serving warforged. Why WOULD it serve warforged? They don't eat or drink. Most people ANYWHERE simply don't expect warforged to want the same things humans do. You want to go to the theater? But why? You're a war golem. People will simply be baffled by the fact that warforged even want to do many human activities. A bar is less likely to throw a warforged out because he's seen as an inferior being, and rather because he's not going to drink, so he's using up space that could go to a paying customer – and beyond that, he may scare away business. Of course, that comes back to the fear factor; if the warforged is asked to leave and doesn't, the watch may be called in.
Overreaction. If the warforged keeps quiet and doesn't cause trouble, odds are that he'll just be left alone or ignored. But if he DOES cause a ruckus – if he gets on a soapbox and starts preaching about warforged superiority, or if he starts shoving a human around – people may overreact, because of the perceived threat. The watch may employ a higher level of violence than usual, because any warforged is considered to be armed and dangerous. So a warforged just walking the streets – a warforged who COULD be employed – is probably fine if he doesn't stir things up. But a warforged clearly loitering or at loose ends will draw more attention than a human in similar circumstances.
Weapons, not People. Most commoners won't raise this point, because they don't want to get their ribs broken by a steel fist. But most still see the warforged as tools as opposed to people. They aren't humans whose ancestors were taken by force. They are artificial beings who only exist because the nation paid for their construction… with the taxes of its citizens! Someone who knows warforged will recognize that they have human sentience, that they feel emotions just as humans do, that if you prick them… well, OK, they don't bleed, but the point remains. Someone who has served with warforged may recognize that they are "people". But the vast majority of humans haven't ever worked with warforged. The bulk of the warforged were deployed on the battlefield or in industrial/labor facilities. Warforged have only been free for TWO YEARS. The average Thranish farmer may have never seen a warforged, and while people living in big cities have seen them, many have never spoken to one. When the farmer sees one, he thinks of it like a tank – an expensive and dangerous weapon his taxes paid for, and which apparently we now have a surplus of. The idea that the Treaty of Thronehold demanded their freedom is really just puzzling to most people – why build weapons and then "free" them? Can they even understand freedom?
Prejudice against warforged is a very real thing. And it's as much a force in Breland as it is in Thrane. Remember the anti-warforged mob in Sharn: City of Towers? Or for those who read Dungeon, the situation with the Tain Foundry in "Steel Shadows"? On an institutional level, warforged are better off in Breland. Boranel and others in government support warforged rights, and the priests of the Sovereign Host aren't challenging the existence of warforged souls. But the warforged working for the ir'Tains in Ashblack isn't that much better off than his counterpart in Karrnath, even if he chose to sign the contract – and he still has to deal with the fear of the common humans of the Cogs.
So I'm not arguing that life is easy for the warforged, or that the warforged in Thrane won't face any sort of prejudice. He will – as will the warforged in Sharn. But the prejudice they face is based on the circumstances of their creation, on their fundamentally inhuman nature, on the fact that they ARE unwanted tools of war. I'm just saying that I don't see the warforged being treated the SAME way as the black man in 1950's Alabama… even if he's treated with an equal level of prejudice and intolerance, the form that it takes will be different.
I don't really see it that way, personally. For many, the words "indentured servitude" conjure the image of the African slave trade and institutionalized American slavery. But that involved humans enslaving humans, and it was an institution that lasted for centuries before being forcibly abolished through a bitter war.
Heh, I'm sure you must see the irony there. Warforged were the target of institutionalized slavery that lasted for decades before being forcibly abolished by the end of a bitter war.
The simple fact that the warforged AREN'T human - they don't eat, don't drink, aren't going to have sex with our women (not to mention the **** of slaves by slave-owners, illegitimate children, and the like), and so on and so on mean that humans are going to see them in a very different way.
Yes, but IMO, they would see them in a *WORSE* way. At least with human slavery, you still had the uncomfortable fact that the person you enslaved was human. They found every way imaginable to justify their actions, but they were still enslaving their own kind.
Warforged are not human, and as you said, the Church (and rather by extension all the rest of Thrane) as soulless tools/weapons. Someone might feel bad at murdering a human, but wouldn't think twice at smashing a glorified toaster. So, IMO, not only do you have the ex-slave mentality, you are missing the basic acknowledgement that they are people.
You can do a lot of atrocities to someone you don't consider human.
Beyond this, few people ever owned warforged; it's not like I had warforged working on my plantation until that thriced-damned Treaty of Thronehold took 'em away from me. In Thrane and Karrnath, the warforged worked as soldiers for the nation. Today, most are still serving the nation or some guild that the nation passed them to, performing manual labor, industrial work, or security. The majority of them are content to do this work, because they like the structure, don't really understand the nature of freedom, and have their needs met by the job. Others chafe at their servitude – but nonetheless, within these countries, most warforged are still employed in the service of the nation.
Which, IMO, reinforces the idea of the common man in Thrane that Warforged are property, and not entitled to the same basic rights as the rest of the humanoids.
So in my opinion, a warforged walking down the streets of Thrane isn't likely to be randomly derided or picked on. The Thranes aren't going to organize lynch mobs. Why would they? Most likely, the warforged is still employed by a national organization. What he will deal with are the following things.
Just for walking into town? No, they'd be fine. But if one decided to "step out of line", oh yeah, I can totally see a bit of mob rule. In fact, you hit on it below:
Warforged are Dangerous. Any warforged can inflict lethal damage with its bare hands. Any armored warforged is tougher than a normal human, not to mention the fact that most have some combat training. Far from picking on them, most normal citizens are going to try to avoid them - because a warforged with a decent Strength can cripple a commoner with a single blow. Normal people aren't going to call warforged names; they're not going to talk to them at all. Meanwhile, guards are going to keep a very close eye on any unemployed warforged, and want to know what business he has. It's sort of like being a well-known murderer on parole with built in armor and weapons; even though you're out on good behavior, peaceful people are going to be afraid of you.
Overreaction. If the warforged keeps quiet and doesn't cause trouble, odds are that he'll just be left alone or ignored. But if he DOES cause a ruckus – if he gets on a soapbox and starts preaching about warforged superiority, or if he starts shoving a human around – people may overreact, because of the perceived threat. The watch may employ a higher level of violence than usual, because any warforged is considered to be armed and dangerous. So a warforged just walking the streets – a warforged who COULD be employed – is probably fine if he doesn't stir things up. But a warforged clearly loitering or at loose ends will draw more attention than a human in similar circumstances.
Which again dovetails into what I was saying. A black man in the middle of a 1950's Southern town wouldn't be bothered if he deferred and kept his head down. If he was caught breaking minor laws that a white man would have gotten away with, they threw the book at him. If he became violent, or was even really accused of doing something violent, he'd be lucky if it didn't end with a noose and a tree.
I see it the same way with the Warforged in Thrane. As long as they're keeping themselves on the straight and narrow, they would be practically invisible to the rest of the population. And just like a large, strong black man, a single person wouldn't tangle with one, but would instead round up a half dozen friends and lynch them.
Heh, I'm sure you must see the irony there. Warforged were the target of institutionalized slavery that lasted for decades before being forcibly abolished by the end of a bitter war.
That's not how I see it at all. When the Last War began, no one used warforged. The use of warforged was never questioned during the war. All of the Five Nations used warforged, and the ethics of the practice were never questioned by the leaders of the nations during the war. No nation ever made the claim that it was fighting for warforged rights (and yes, I'm well aware that there was far, far more to the Civil War than slavery, but it was an issue and a point that divided the nations). The war was certainly bitter - but the warforged were no part of that bitterness.
The release of the warforged and the closing of the creation forges became an issue at the Treaty of Thronehold, once the war was clearly coming to an end. For many of the people involved, there were exactly the same ethical considerations as banning proliferation of nuclear weapons or nerve gas; some consider such weapons inhumane and horrifying, and others are simply concerned about the tactical implications. Remember that the vast majority of the Thronehold nations - Valenar, Darguun, the Mror Holds, Zilargo, and so on - never had warforged armies; you can bet it was interests of Valenar and Darguun to have the Five Nations dissolve their warforged armies. So yes, some among the Five Nations saw it as a moral imperitive clearly predicated by the Code of Kaius. But others never considered warforged service to be slavery - including the majority of the warforged themselves. We could certainly debate the meaning of the word slavery, and I wouldn't argue the fact that a failing to teach someone the meaning of freedom is the most insiduous form of slavery (just look to Riedra). But I simply cannot see a comparison between the warforged and the African slave trade - people being torn from their families, many dying in transit or from disease, and centuries of oppression that followed - and the few decades of service of artificially created beings who were in fact created for that purpose. The warforged never had families. Their children weren't taken from them and sold to others. They weren't forced to abandon their customs - because they never had customs to abandon. Yes, as sentient beings indoctrinated into service and set into harm's way with no choice in the matter, they were unquestionably slaves - but it's just not comparable to the atrocities we've seen humans commit against other humans in our history, all the more so because it is humans acting against humans... and you'd think the people involved would feel worse about it than they would about smashing a toaster.
Someone might feel bad at murdering a human, but wouldn't think twice at smashing a glorified toaster.
I think there's two separate issues here. I agree 100% that the lack of empathy between humans and warforged makes it easier for either to commit attrocities upon the other without remorse. This is one of the reasons warforged make excellent soldiers; leaders don't have to feel any regret at sending them into harm's way, and for their part the warforged feel little empathy for the humans they are sent to kill.
With that said, how often do you smash toasters? Why do it? On a one to one level - not institutionalized oppression, but me seeing you on the street - without that identification, I lose a lot of motivation to commit those atrocities. There's lots of things that go into hate crime. A desire to assert your superiority or personal power. Anger at something that you see as an insult to your values or way of life. The refusal to accept that what you hate in your victim is something that exists within yourself. Sexual tension. All of these things exist between humans. I want to assert my dominance over you because it has meaning, because I recognize you as being similar to me. I'm insulted by your behavior because I expect you to understand my position (and I'm speaking metaphorically here, not about this particular argument). Because on some level, we are the same. None of that holds true with the toaster. I don't mock my toaster - why would I? I don't beat it just for the fun of it, because I can't recognize its pain.
I'm not saying that people would be nicer to the warforged because of this. I'm saying that the warforged simply don't generate the same level of aggression and hate that humans can generate in one another. All the more so because, by and large, the average human didn't interact with warforged. They didn't live on my estates. I didn't grow up with warforged slaves, and I didn't come to think of myself as better than them. They've only been in my city for two years, if that! If I'm a typical citizen, what I know is that these things were soldiers, made to fight. I don't know much of anything about what motivates them; what I do know is that they're dangerous. So again, my expectation is that people will by and large avoid and ignore them. They will be shunned, pushed into places like Ashblack, denied opportunities because of fear and because of the fact that we don't identify with them or understand them. They will suffer because of that lack of empathy. But they will suffer in an entirely different way from the Cyran refugee. There I see the human. I know how he thinks. I know that he fought my nation during the war and now has the audacity to come to my city, to try to take my job, to eat my food, to possibly steal my wife or marry my daughter. And his kind have been fighting mine for a hundred years. Not because they were MADE to, but because they CHOSE to. That's where my hatred will go. Or perhaps I'll channel it at that follower of the Blood of Vol, that freak who bleeds himself every week, who steals corpses and traffics with the dead (or so I've heard). Again, he's enough like me for me to be disgusted by this path he's chosen for himself, by the fact that he's bringing these filthy beliefs into my city - and he's probably working with the Emerald Claw to do something horrible.
Now, on an institutional level I completely agree with you. Because no one has empathy for the warforged, it's easy to overlook their plight, and that's exactly why they are suffering as a race. Many in Thrane and Karrnath remain in indentured servitude that is all but sanctioned by the government - and even in Breland they've largely been drawn in as poorly paid laborers. For all that he supported their freedom in the Treaty of Thronehold, Boranel isn't going out of his way to do anything for the common Brelish warforged. People still see them as toasters, and who gives a damn about a toaster? But for precisely that reason, I don't see the same level of hate crimes targetting warforged that you'll get with, say, Cyran refugees. People's actions towards them are driven more by fear than hate.
As long as they're keeping themselves on the straight and narrow, they would be practically invisible to the rest of the population.
Well, with this statement, I think we're actually on the same page. A warforged that stays quiet and minds its own business is going to be largely ignored; it's a toaster, who cares what it's doing? And yes, if it causes trouble and a panicked mob tears it apart, who's going to shed a tear? But I don't see people mocking the warforged, shoving them around, threatening them, or stringing them up even when they haven't done ANYTHING - all of which I could see happening to a Cyran refugee or follower of the Blood of Vol in Sharn.
With all of that said, while I don't see most people looking at a warforged on the street and saying "That bastard's going to steal my job" - when it actually does steal your job, it can certainly lead to organized violence against warforged; this sort of prejudice is part of the plot of "Steel Shadows". Likewise, as I said, the perception of warforged as a threat could certainly result in their being refused service at any number of places; again, the armored warforged is essentially walking around with the "Former Professional Killer" tag floating over his head. They can suffer in many ways, and especially in Thrane and Karrnath, the forces of the law won't go far to protect them; but it's still a different sort of prejudice than you'll see towards that Cyran... even, IMO, if the warforged fought for Cyre. He didn't CHOOSE to fight for Cyre; they just bought him. He's a $#%ing toaster.
A few more thoughts, concerning Races of Eberron
All of what I've said, of course, is based on my view of the warforged. This conflicts in a number of ways with Races of Eberron. My original thought was that the warforged came into existence ready to fight; a warforged emerges from the creation forge as a fighter, ready to grab a sword and go. In my vision, most were quite loyal to their nations because it was literally all that they knew: the warforged built to fight for Breland had no other purpose than fighting for Breland. Over the course of the war, many transfered this loyalty to the people they fought alongside, because again, that's what they knew. But in my opinion - as borne out in my novels - warforged are made for war, and it is in battle that they feel most alive. It's not the same as a human being trained for war; it's instinct, hardwired into them.
Races of Eberron takes a different approach on many levels. It asserts that they came out of the creation forge with no knowledge whatsoever, were bullied and terrified into service, and largely had no loyalty whatsoever and would switch sides at the drop of a crown. In my mind, possessing no skill and no loyalty makes them actually less desireable than typical serf militia. At least the Thrane peasant already knows how to use a bow and has some attachment to his country simply by virtue of wanting to protect his family.
I sought to resolve the "Coming out with no knowledge" statement with my vision that most warforged were elite soldiers - hence their value - in the first Warforged Dragonshard, which presented the idea of the chrysalis state - that the warforged might emerge with no knowledge, but that with minimal training it could jump to an impressive level of skill before its mind fixed on its role, much as it's easier for a child to learn a language than an adult (this also supports that lingering idea that warforged "souls" may be being canibalized from dead people - at that these chrysalis skills come out quickly because they are essentially being "remembered"). That idea was approved by WotC design, so it is part of canon (and lest you think they just weren't paying attention to the Dragonshards, there was another idea I originally presented in it that they shot down). The whole shifting loyalty thing is still there, and that's really up to you to play - I just don't like it, myself.
Anyhow, the main point is that it's up to you to decide if warforged essentially took to their surface quickly and enjoyed the sense of purpose it provided - or if they were beaten into submission and forced onto the battlefield by sheer intimidation and terror. Either way, they were certainly slaves. However, if you take the second approach, there's no way anyone could delude themselves about this issue (and frankly, little way in which you could field a warforged army of significant size, IMO); while with the first, people could certainly tell themselves "They're not slaves... they LIKE fighting!" It doesn't change the basic issue - but in my assertion that warforged slavery wasn't as brutal as many human vs human enslavements we've seen, it depends on which version you use.
In my campaign, the point is that the warforged were created to be weapons of war. They weren't intended to have the same range of emotions and desires as humans, and it took time for people to even realize that they did. As soon it became clear that they did, there's no way you could call it anything but slavery - but it wasn't the original goal. While if they had to be beaten into service from day one, it puts a very different spin on it.
Races of Eberron takes a different approach on many levels. It asserts that they came out of the creation forge with no knowledge whatsoever, were bullied and terrified into service, and largely had no loyalty whatsoever and would switch sides at the drop of a crown. In my mind, possessing no skill and no loyalty makes them actually less desireable than typical serf militia. At least the Thrane peasant already knows how to use a bow and has some attachment to his country simply by virtue of wanting to protect his family.
I sought to resolve the "Coming out with no knowledge" statement with my vision that most warforged were elite soldiers - hence their value - in the first Warforged Dragonshard, which presented the idea of the chrysalis state - that the warforged might emerge with no knowledge, but that with minimal training it could jump to an impressive level of skill before its mind fixed on its role, much as it's easier for a child to learn a language than an adult (this also supports that lingering idea that warforged "souls" may be being canibalized from dead people - at that these chrysalis skills come out quickly because they are essentially being "remembered"). That idea was approved by WotC design, so it is part of canon (and lest you think they just weren't paying attention to the Dragonshards, there was another idea I originally presented in it that they shot down). The whole shifting loyalty thing is still there, and that's really up to you to play - I just don't like it, myself.
Anyhow, the main point is that it's up to you to decide if warforged essentially took to their surface quickly and enjoyed the sense of purpose it provided - or if they were beaten into submission and forced onto the battlefield by sheer intimidation and terror. Either way, they were certainly slaves. However, if you take the second approach, there's no way anyone could delude themselves about this issue (and frankly, little way in which you could field a warforged army of significant size, IMO); while with the first, people could certainly tell themselves "They're not slaves... they LIKE fighting!" It doesn't change the basic issue - but in my assertion that warforged slavery wasn't as brutal as many human vs human enslavements we've seen, it depends on which version you use.
In my campaign, the point is that the warforged were created to be weapons of war. They weren't intended to have the same range of emotions and desires as humans, and it took time for people to even realize that they did. As soon it became clear that they did, there's no way you could call it anything but slavery - but it wasn't the original goal. While if they had to be beaten into service from day one, it puts a very different spin on it.
It may be assumed, unless they have evidence to the contrary, that the Warforged has an owner, and that it is going about their business. This is likely a further reason why people have more qualms about attacking them: Most work for either the government, or the military, both of whom tend to get really intense about civilians smashing up their property.
As to a Warforged in the Church or the Silver Flame: as has been mentioned before, the silver flame does not have a "human" aspect, merely an ambassador who happens to be human. This may well attract more Warforged than the Soverign Host does.
Dealing with the Church as an institution however, would be harder, particularly with those members who worry about status in the church itself.
The ability to channel the power of the Silver Flame however, will probably raise them above the usual Warforged in the eyes of most of the Silver Flame's followers.
If the Warforged are still thought of as property by the average person in Thrane, their presence may well be accepted even if they generally aren't.
Bear in mind that in legal terms, indentured servitude isn't slavery. As such, warforged aren't property and don't have owners - that would be illegal under the terms of the Treaty of Thronehold. Indentured servitude involves a contract between worker and employer to work for a certain period of time. The catch is that often - and certainly in both Thrane and Karrnath - the employer may find a way to extend the term of service, generally by overcharging for room, board, and the like. It's actually an interesting question what they're charging the warforged for, since you can't sell them booze or things like that.
So your point is absolutely correct: people in Thrane and Karrnath assume that the average warforged seen on the street is an indentured servant. I'm just saying that it's not exactly the same as being "property." But yes, if the warforged isn't jumping up and down screaming "I am am not a number, I am a free construct!" I'd expect people to generally ignore them. Again, they're toasters. They're doing their jobs. And they're dangerous, so don't provoke them with no reason. Yes, they're soulless tools - but that's obvious. When I take a factory tour, I don't pick on the assembly line. People may not RESPECT the warforged in Thrane, but they have no particular reason to bother any warforged that appears to be going about its business - unless that warforged starts causing trouble, in which case you'll get swift action to stop this malfunctioning construct before it hurts someone.
So one reason I don't like the 1950's Alabama comparison is because in Thrane and Karrnath, most warforged are still serving. The truly free warforged is an anomaly most people just aren't used to dealing with. It's not ILLEGAL for a warforged to be free, but it's very unusual in the nation. So you don't really have a cultural attitude built up around persecuting free warforged, because people just don't encounter them that often.
On the other hand, because you don't have the system of institutionalized service, warforged in Aundair and Breland don't have this same shield. So if anything, people are more likely to question the actions of a warforged in Fairhaven - because there's no national expectation that they're still bound in service.
Personally, I think soldiers are most likely to accept warforged because they're more used to them; soldiers who have served with warforged may even think of certain warforged as friends (IE, Daine and Pierce). The common person sees the adamantine warforged and thinks "Killer"; the soldier will say "Don't be stupid - he fought for us, remember?" (Assuming, of course, that he did; the soldier will also be better equipped to recognize the difference between a Karrnathi warforged and Brelish one.)
Yes, my thought was that in Thrane or Karrnath, people would be less likely to interfere with a Warforged because they will assume that it is serving a master, who might take a dim view of his errands being interfered with.
I don't see many people picking fights with Warforged: Like Hellcow has said, they both look, and are known to be dangerous. Any harrassment is likely to express itself as overcharging, giving deliberately misleading directions, or outright refusing to serve them.
I think this can often be a little off track and there are better analogs that modern day can offer us. Ask any Roomba owner how they feel about their little robot vacuum and it won't be the same as their toaster. It quickly becomes part of their family. Aibo's and Asimo and Japanese nursing home robots show that people are much more ready to empathize with objects that are responsive than common belief told us a decade ago.
While warforged definitely carry some stigma of being created for battle, thats not necessarily a bad thing. Look at the Hummer and the Jeep here in the USA. They are battle machines that slipped just fine into our lives. War machines often carry a patriotic symbolism with them. Doubling as war veterans and as symbols of national power I see them being more accepted, by many. To add to that a warforged that settles down most likely won't be a burden to their community, I'm hard pressed to figure out a case where they would be. Instead, especially in more remote areas, I see them as bringing far more to the difficult lives of a small village then they take.
Sure you'll always find people that find reasons to hate and blame, but I think that exposure, like in real life, people grow accustomed to new things. And in a world where there are many different races, I don't see them as a horrible stretch to grow accustomed to.
Fair enough. I wasn't sure how widely realised that part of the treaty was, or whether the average person on the street would see little to distinguish the Warforged's new situation.
For purposes of the discussion, I don't think it actually makes a difference... though from the viewpoint of the WARFORGED, he thinks of himself as someone working for an employer, not someone owned by an employer. And you can't "buy" a warforged. So it doesn't affect the view of the man on the street - I just wanted to clarify the idea of warforged-as-property as a general principle.
While warforged definately carry some stigma of being created for battle, thats not necessicarily a bad thing. Look at the Hummer and the Jeep here in the USA. They are battle machines that slipped just fine into our lives. War machines often carry a patriotic symbolism with them.
Good point.
The people of Thrane consider warforged to be souless constructs, tools created for war. They do not consider them to be the spiritual equals of humans. However, when you combine the fact that the warforged did fight to defend Thrane and that the vast majority of the warforged in modern Thrane are continuing to serve the nation through their indentured servitude, there really isn't a lot of reason for people to feel hostility towards the warforged. They aren't equal - and at the moment, they aren't trying to be equal. They are tools, and still employed doing a job. If they get out of line - threatening other people - then you treat them like any malfunctioning and dangerous tool; if the circular saw starts flinging blades at people, you shut it down. But in many ways, I think a warforged is less likely to be picked on in Thrane than it is in Breland - because as said, in Breland it's a former soldier at loose ends, whereas in Thrane it's likely gainfully employed and serving a useful function within society. It doesn't have a soul, but so what? Neither does my car, and I don't hate it because of this.
Most Thranes don't believe that warforged have souls (though as the Dragonshard says, there's always room to explore this). The Thranish government opposed releasing the warforged from service in the Treaty of Thronehold. And an armored warforged is inherently a threatening image to any commoner. It's very difficult for a warforged to be seen as an equal in the Church of the Silver Flame or Blood of Vol. But simply walking around on the street, I think a warforged might generally get a better reception in Thrane than it does in Breland... until he starts pushing people around and threatening them, of course (or getting on a soapbox and preaching about warforged souls).
I'll note that a lot of my posts have hinged on the concept of hate crimes against warforged, based on the "1950's Alabama" comment. However, that's something I brought to the table; Edymnion didn't specifically say what HE meant when he used that example. I don't see warforged being treated as equals in most places. I don't see people feeling much remorse for destroying a warforged if it poses a threat to humans. But I also don't see them generating the same sort of hostility from humans that you get against people like the Cyran refugees.
My answer, Silver Tracery.
This, at least as my DM made it seem, made the general population on Thrane treat me much better. Well that and the giant brand of the sliver flame on my chest.
My answer, Silver Tracery.
Certainly. This ties to the point that the Thranish warforged were comissioned by the government of Thrane - which is to say, the Church of the Silver Flame. As a Thranish warforged, you fought for the Church. If you've got Silver Tracery, it highlights the fact that you specifically served the Church, not simply the general military. And as madninjapimp says, this may actually get people to view you in a friendly light. They still don't think you've got a soul, but that doesn't change the fact that you're serving the Church, even if ultimately you don't have a soul to add to the Silver Flame (and hey, some may be convinced that you can develop one).
So the point is that while the warforged were technically slaves - intelligent beings set in service with no choice about it - that's not how the general populace saw them; people saw them as war machines in the service of their nation. Which affects their opinion of them today. In Thrane, where most remain in some form of bonded service, there's not a lot of reason to reevaluate that original opinion. In Breland and Aundair, where these former war machines are just wandering the streets at loose ends, there's actually more reason for consternation at their presence. (Which is, of course, why in Sharn most of them have been pushed into the Cogs.)
One question Hellcow: are you married? Because I have fallen in love with... your properly-punctuated posts.
Wow! An unexpected bonus to being an English major!
As it turns out, I'm married to this lovely Lyrandar heir. Of course, since I have the Mark of Making, you just know it can't end well...
One question Hellcow: are you married? Because I have fallen in love with, not only your creation of the Eberron setting, but your well-reasoned, properly-punctuated posts.
Yup, he even named his website after her. :P
(Man, I just know she's going to come online and beat me up for that one.)
As it turns out, I'm married to this lovely Lyrandar heir. Of course, since I have the Mark of Making, you just know it can't end well...
That's funny, Keith, I could swear she didn't have pointed ears when I was talking to her. Are you sure she's not a changeling? ;)
That's funny, Keith, I could swear she didn't have pointed ears when I was talking to her. Are you sure she's not a changeling? ;)
She's a half-elf... half of the time she's an elf, the other half she's not.
To follow up with with Kagehitos post: A friend of mine in the game I am DMing is playing a warforged fighter for the Silver Flame. He also has silver tracery and, for cosmetic and roleplaying applications, he has an opening in his chest with a small spark of the Silver Flame within it, my idea. Is the Silver Flame his soul? Is it what gives him life? He has no idea. But the other players use him as a makeshift and mobile alter to the Flame, and he is respected by members of the church.
That amuses me....