Sneaking around Dreadhold - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Sneaking around Dreadhold

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Lugnut171
Mar 13, 2012 10:57:30 So my players are going to have to sneak around Dreadhold looking for a prisoner. This will be in my 4th ed updated Eyes of the Lich Queen, which orgianlly handled it as a series of encounters. I think a skill challenge is a much better idea in theme. Anyways I'm hoping to get some suggestions on it. Here is what I'm doing so far. They should be level 7 but I haven't figured out the DCs yet.

Sneaking around Dreadhold (6 succeses, 3 failures)

Primary Skills: Stealth, Perception, Thievery, Bluff

Stealth: DC Moderate - This will be a group check (whole group roles add it up), which is why I'm setting it at moderate instead of hard. Otherwise this one is pretty easy to figure out, just avoiding detection.

Perception: DC Easy - Spotting or hearing guards and avoding them.

Thievery: DC Hard - Opening locked gates, figured Kundarak would have good locks.

Bluff: DC ? - Basically lying your way past the guards at checkpoints or if they get discovered. Not sure how hard to make this probably going to depend on if they were discovered or trying to get past someplace.

Now for Stealth, perception, bluff failure will lead to discovery, failure at thievery just means that they lose a success because they have to try another way around.

Secondary Skills: Dungeonneering, Insight, Intimidate, Diplomacy

Dungeonneering: DC Easy - If they get discovered and choose to run, or fail at thievery, I figure they can use Dungeonneering to find their way prevent getting lost.

Insight: DC Moderate - This can be used to find the best way to deal with the guards, basically in order lying, bribes, intimidate.

Diplomacy: DC Easy - A guard will not let the PC's pass no matter how much sweet talking they do but can be used to lower a bribe.

Intimidate: DC Hard - Guards are difficult to threaten, this is part of the day to day job, might make this impossible?

Basically if you fail two you will end up in a fight (so fail a stealth, get discovered, fail trying to bluff them and fight), with some exceptions like Thievery.

Success - they find the prisoner they were looking for, and get out without alerting the prison

Failure - the prison is alerted and the PC's are identified, they will still find the prisoner, but have made enemies with House Kundarak. Final encounter in the prison they lose element of suprise.
#2
naturax
Mar 25, 2012 19:33:29 I've run this encounter, and it's really not about sneaking around. The whole point is to find the prisoner, kill the aberrations (I threw in a little beholder to make it more interesting), and then fight their way to the ship while the ballistae are firing at it.

You should just let them sneak past without having to roll any dice and spend time on the interesting parts of the adventure instead of hacking their way through patrol after patrol without advancing the story.
#3
Madfox11
Apr 03, 2012 6:46:58
I've run this encounter, and it's really not about sneaking around. The whole point is to find the prisoner, kill the aberrations (I threw in a little beholder to make it more interesting), and then fight their way to the ship while the ballistae are firing at it.

You should just let them sneak past without having to roll any dice and spend time on the interesting parts of the adventure instead of hacking their way through patrol after patrol without advancing the story.

He never said that they would have to hack their way through patrol after patrol. Two failures lead to one figtht, which makes sense, give the PCs the choice whether to kill the guards or not (which is a purely story choice in 4e) and does not disrupt the story. Of course, if your players dislike even one fight it becomes another story. Further than that he notes that the PCs are identified with the third failure (I probably would extend that a bit based on how they deal with the fight), which will have repurcursions in their relations with House Kundarak and it will make the final encounter more challenging. Those are mostly story repurcursions which do advance the story. Finding the prisoner is not part of the challenge, so the story still continues.

Some specific comments about the skill challenge itself though. If you make it a Complexity 2 skill challenge, I would add more details. In general I design a minimum of one distinct scenes per 2 checks, specific challenges for the PCs to interact with and to solve (with or without a skill check depending on their choices). For example, in this case I would add something like Scene 1 Getting into Dreadhold, Scene 2 Finding the Prisoner without Triggering an Alarm/Being identified and Scene 3 Getting Past a specific check point. You could keep it vague, but unless you are a quick thinker who can create imprompto detailed scenes, you run the risk of the challenge turning into a quick string of rolls.

In regards to your use of social skills checks, I always define Bluff as the skill through which you convince somebody a piece of information is true, Diplomacy to get a NPC to do something in return for something (which can be something as vague as satisfaction for doing the right thing) and Intimidate to look strong/threatening or to get a NPC to do something without any gain. Using Diplomacy to lower bribes makes sense with Bluff being the skill to convince the guards the PCs have a right to be there. I would not automatically prevent the use of Intimidate. After all, while a guard might not fear threats of bodily harm, the PC might threaten to talk with the guard's superiors to get the poor sod assigned to an even worst job than Dreadhold would be an Intimidate as well... Outright preventing the use of a skill should never be done lightly.

One thing, remember that the PCs can actually prepare beforehand. For example, they could come up with an elaborate ruse with the right kiind of disguises (potentially requiring research through the use of Knowledge skills to get the correct names, seals and excuses), and forging the necessary papers (Thievery). Similarly, they could do some research by finding people who used to work at Dreadhold (Streetwise), questioning them a bit about the layout and procedures (Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate/gold). In these cases a failed check, either causes the PCs to recover incomplete/wrong information or to alert the wrong people about interest in Dreadhold. The skill challenge can definitely start before the PCs are actually in Dreadhold.

Finally, you probably could use Insight as well. Not just to predict guard's behavior, but even whether or not the guard can be bribed in the first place. I remember running a scene in which the PCs had to bluff their way past city guards. One character wanted to know whether bribing was an option, failed the check and I told him that it was an option. Had he succeeded, I would also have told him it was an option. Now though he happened to have found one of the few honest guards, while with a success that guard was corrupt. Of course, it was just the first failure of the challenge, so a Diplomacy by another PC smoothed things over.
#4
Lugnut171
Apr 03, 2012 9:51:16 Excellent point about intimidate. The plan to get in is actually already set up but if the players decide they are going to try it on their own I'll certainly allow them, and I'm actually using insight just like said.

Quick background or the next part doesn't make sense. In the Eyes of the Lich Queen, a warden in the prison has discoverd some Kyhber dragonshards under the prison itself, he was illegally using some of his prisoners to harvest them as slave labor, but it started to get too hot. So he switchted to using slaves brought from the Cloudreavers, anyways you actually need to get one of these slaves. In the orginal adventure you end up taking over a Cloudreaver ship which drops off supplies and picks up shards, sail in and hid in some crates for cargo (which I kept the same, but if they want the PCs can come up with their own plan), you end up fighting some guards, until you find the prisoner (who is actually dead in the mines, you actually need his tattos), then you have to escape with him and one other prisoner.

So I pretty set up the skill challenge to start in the storage room, (as a whole it is going to be a little more structured than normal), but pretty similar to how you described it Madfox, so unlock storage room, then sneak, eventually both a manned and unmanned guardpost.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Lugnut171 Mar 13, 2012 10:57:30	So my players are going to have to sneak around Dreadhold looking for a prisoner. This will be in my 4th ed updated Eyes of the Lich Queen, which orgianlly handled it as a series of encounters. I think a skill challenge is a much better idea in theme. Anyways I'm hoping to get some suggestions on it. Here is what I'm doing so far. They should be level 7 but I haven't figured out the DCs yet. Sneaking around Dreadhold (6 succeses, 3 failures) Primary Skills: Stealth, Perception, Thievery, Bluff Stealth: DC Moderate - This will be a group check (whole group roles add it up), which is why I'm setting it at moderate instead of hard. Otherwise this one is pretty easy to figure out, just avoiding detection. Perception: DC Easy - Spotting or hearing guards and avoding them. Thievery: DC Hard - Opening locked gates, figured Kundarak would have good locks. Bluff: DC ? - Basically lying your way past the guards at checkpoints or if they get discovered. Not sure how hard to make this probably going to depend on if they were discovered or trying to get past someplace. Now for Stealth, perception, bluff failure will lead to discovery, failure at thievery just means that they lose a success because they have to try another way around. Secondary Skills: Dungeonneering, Insight, Intimidate, Diplomacy Dungeonneering: DC Easy - If they get discovered and choose to run, or fail at thievery, I figure they can use Dungeonneering to find their way prevent getting lost. Insight: DC Moderate - This can be used to find the best way to deal with the guards, basically in order lying, bribes, intimidate. Diplomacy: DC Easy - A guard will not let the PC's pass no matter how much sweet talking they do but can be used to lower a bribe. Intimidate: DC Hard - Guards are difficult to threaten, this is part of the day to day job, might make this impossible? Basically if you fail two you will end up in a fight (so fail a stealth, get discovered, fail trying to bluff them and fight), with some exceptions like Thievery. Success - they find the prisoner they were looking for, and get out without alerting the prison Failure - the prison is alerted and the PC's are identified, they will still find the prisoner, but have made enemies with House Kundarak. Final encounter in the prison they lose element of suprise.
#2 naturax Mar 25, 2012 19:33:29	I've run this encounter, and it's really not about sneaking around. The whole point is to find the prisoner, kill the aberrations (I threw in a little beholder to make it more interesting), and then fight their way to the ship while the ballistae are firing at it. You should just let them sneak past without having to roll any dice and spend time on the interesting parts of the adventure instead of hacking their way through patrol after patrol without advancing the story.
#3 Madfox11 Apr 03, 2012 6:46:58	I've run this encounter, and it's really not about sneaking around. The whole point is to find the prisoner, kill the aberrations (I threw in a little beholder to make it more interesting), and then fight their way to the ship while the ballistae are firing at it. You should just let them sneak past without having to roll any dice and spend time on the interesting parts of the adventure instead of hacking their way through patrol after patrol without advancing the story. He never said that they would have to hack their way through patrol after patrol. Two failures lead to one figtht, which makes sense, give the PCs the choice whether to kill the guards or not (which is a purely story choice in 4e) and does not disrupt the story. Of course, if your players dislike even one fight it becomes another story. Further than that he notes that the PCs are identified with the third failure (I probably would extend that a bit based on how they deal with the fight), which will have repurcursions in their relations with House Kundarak and it will make the final encounter more challenging. Those are mostly story repurcursions which do advance the story. Finding the prisoner is not part of the challenge, so the story still continues. Some specific comments about the skill challenge itself though. If you make it a Complexity 2 skill challenge, I would add more details. In general I design a minimum of one distinct scenes per 2 checks, specific challenges for the PCs to interact with and to solve (with or without a skill check depending on their choices). For example, in this case I would add something like Scene 1 Getting into Dreadhold, Scene 2 Finding the Prisoner without Triggering an Alarm/Being identified and Scene 3 Getting Past a specific check point. You could keep it vague, but unless you are a quick thinker who can create imprompto detailed scenes, you run the risk of the challenge turning into a quick string of rolls. In regards to your use of social skills checks, I always define Bluff as the skill through which you convince somebody a piece of information is true, Diplomacy to get a NPC to do something in return for something (which can be something as vague as satisfaction for doing the right thing) and Intimidate to look strong/threatening or to get a NPC to do something without any gain. Using Diplomacy to lower bribes makes sense with Bluff being the skill to convince the guards the PCs have a right to be there. I would not automatically prevent the use of Intimidate. After all, while a guard might not fear threats of bodily harm, the PC might threaten to talk with the guard's superiors to get the poor sod assigned to an even worst job than Dreadhold would be an Intimidate as well... Outright preventing the use of a skill should never be done lightly. One thing, remember that the PCs can actually prepare beforehand. For example, they could come up with an elaborate ruse with the right kiind of disguises (potentially requiring research through the use of Knowledge skills to get the correct names, seals and excuses), and forging the necessary papers (Thievery). Similarly, they could do some research by finding people who used to work at Dreadhold (Streetwise), questioning them a bit about the layout and procedures (Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate/gold). In these cases a failed check, either causes the PCs to recover incomplete/wrong information or to alert the wrong people about interest in Dreadhold. The skill challenge can definitely start before the PCs are actually in Dreadhold. Finally, you probably could use Insight as well. Not just to predict guard's behavior, but even whether or not the guard can be bribed in the first place. I remember running a scene in which the PCs had to bluff their way past city guards. One character wanted to know whether bribing was an option, failed the check and I told him that it was an option. Had he succeeded, I would also have told him it was an option. Now though he happened to have found one of the few honest guards, while with a success that guard was corrupt. Of course, it was just the first failure of the challenge, so a Diplomacy by another PC smoothed things over.
#4 Lugnut171 Apr 03, 2012 9:51:16	Excellent point about intimidate. The plan to get in is actually already set up but if the players decide they are going to try it on their own I'll certainly allow them, and I'm actually using insight just like said. Quick background or the next part doesn't make sense. In the Eyes of the Lich Queen, a warden in the prison has discoverd some Kyhber dragonshards under the prison itself, he was illegally using some of his prisoners to harvest them as slave labor, but it started to get too hot. So he switchted to using slaves brought from the Cloudreavers, anyways you actually need to get one of these slaves. In the orginal adventure you end up taking over a Cloudreaver ship which drops off supplies and picks up shards, sail in and hid in some crates for cargo (which I kept the same, but if they want the PCs can come up with their own plan), you end up fighting some guards, until you find the prisoner (who is actually dead in the mines, you actually need his tattos), then you have to escape with him and one other prisoner. So I pretty set up the skill challenge to start in the storage room, (as a whole it is going to be a little more structured than normal), but pretty similar to how you described it Madfox, so unlock storage room, then sneak, eventually both a manned and unmanned guardpost.