* They have horrible famine and pestilence inducing weather.
* They're stacked with the undead.
* It's a military themed culture with everything wracking of Totalitarianism.
* Their leader is Lawful Evil.
* The Majority of Karrns seem to be a pretty grim bunch.
So how bad is it in your Karrn?
So how bad is it in your Karrn?
Not that bad.
In no particular order ('cause I'm cool like that)...
* Kaius III has put restrictions on the Blood of Vol (rawr, no Blood for your Blood God)
* A bunch of followers are apparently part of his harem, which follows him and gives him blood (Blood for the Blood God!)
* I view the undead like robots. It doesn't really have any effect on the average citizen's life (at least not on a small scale), but the undead still protect Karrnath at its borders.
* If I knew what Totalitarianism I would totally agree with you, however I am much too lazy to look it up :P
* Kaius III may be recklessly evil but he did what he does to save his nation, which, IMO, is a good act. He wasn't all "Dude! I wanna be a vampire 'cause they're kickass!" He put a lot of thought on it and he knew it was the only chance to save his nation from the ravages of war. Thats just my take on it, however.
* They're only a grim bunch if you make them a grim bunch. They've been hardened by military commanders for at least (what is it - a year? Two?) of military training. I'd be pretty grim, but I hear military privates can really party ;)
* /can't find the part about the pestilence or weather. Source?
* /can't find the part about the pestilence or weather. Source?
The frigid weather is part of its description. The infamous plague that prevented Karrnath from winning the Last War is what I'm referring to, pestilance wise.
The frigid weather is part of its description. The infamous plague that prevented Karrnath from winning the Last War is what I'm referring to, pestilance wise.
That doesn't change too much.
I assume the frigid weather is the equivalent to up here in Canada, its actually not that bad ;) (Although crops and such... damn)
Plague's'll come. I'm sure there've been massive plagues in the other four nations, it was just the timing that was infamous.
And, looking over the list at the beginning of this thread, aside from the "undead" and "military-themed culture", sounds pretty much like my country for the last ten years. What's so bad about it? (j/k)
Another Canadian? Cool. (Unfortunately, you're probably too far away to game with.)
And, looking over the list at the beginning of this thread, aside from the "undead" and "military-themed culture", sounds pretty much like my country for the last ten years. What's so bad about it? (j/k)
:P
I live in Ontario as well, actually.
[/derail]
Part of this may be the fact that I always tend to pick and choose Real Life Similiarities for Karrnath inspiration. In this case, Karrnath has some shades of Russia during WW2, Germany during WW1, and Wallachia during Vlad the Impaler.
It's a pretty damn wrecked mess of a country and recovery is pretty damn slow even if you do have tireless undead working day and night to rebuild your buildings. I also tend to treat the Karrn people as the most affected by the war (aside from the Cyreans). They're a bitter, tough, tough, tough, people.
Thrane tends to view them under the auspice that they'd have to ANNIHILATE them rather than conquer them and that makes them wary.
I generally treat Karrnath as the second worst off of the Five Nations post the war (one guess as to who got the worst off). The place was really fighting with kettles, rusty knives, and the legions of the undead towards the end. Thrane, Aundair, and Breland were relatively well off and mostly wondering how the Hell that Karrnath's people just refused to surrender or even back down from attacking.
Part of this may be the fact that I always tend to pick and choose Real Life Similiarities for Karrnath inspiration. In this case, Karrnath has some shades of Russia during WW2, Germany during WW1, and Wallachia during Vlad the Impaler.
It's a pretty damn wrecked mess of a country and recovery is pretty damn slow even if you do have tireless undead working day and night to rebuild your buildings. I also tend to treat the Karrn people as the most affected by the war (aside from the Cyreans). They're a bitter, tough, tough, tough, people.
Thrane tends to view them under the auspice that they'd have to ANNIHILATE them rather than conquer them and that makes them wary.
Hmm, makes them sound like Poland combined with Afghanistan. Those are the two countries that I think have gotten screwed over the most IRL in the past two centuries.
Unfortunately, Karrnath being the military dictatorship that it is, A LOT is going to the army as opposed to rebuilding.
Or are you just fishing for ideas right now? :P
I'm picturing Russia during WW2 myself - very cold, very bleak, and the people very somber.
And yet, they insist on defending their (near worthless) land to the very end.
For the Motherland! :D
So, exactly what world ARE you running, Charles? ;)
Or are you just fishing for ideas right now? :P
I'm picturing Russia during WW2 myself - very cold, very bleak, and the people very somber.
And yet, they insist on defending their (near worthless) land to the very end.
For the Motherland! :D
Apparently, the same one you are. What do you think YOU'RE running.
:P
But yes, I'm not overplaying Karrnath's condition too much. I consider it very much the Great Patriotic War for how they react to things. They've fought the good fight and are happy to have.....tied? Okay, actually I think most Karrns are ticked because I doubt anyone of them ever thought they couldn't WIN the war.
For example you have Breland which (IMO) is USA/UK/Russia; Aundair - UK/France; Thrane - Vatican/Spain; etc.
Karrnath is (as someone put it earlier in this thread) Imperial Germany (Prussia) / Imperial Russia / Wallachia but there's also a very strong feudalistic element (thereby the Prussia reference).
I don't think Karrnath is evil at all. It's just a very tough place to live in especially with all the food shortages etc. and this historic condition also made them very militaristic and expansive (much like the resource hunger of Germany before WWI) + they have a long history of being militaristic (Karrn the Conqueror, Galifar, etc. were from Karrnath).
Concerning Kaius - ever since I read the history of the Last war in 'The Forge of War' I don't see him as evil at all anymore. I think it's only because of the MM limit on vampire's alignment that he's listed as LE. He's the only other leader apart from Boranel who genuinely wants peace and he's working hard to counter the war-mongers among his war-lords. However, they wield considerable political and military power and that makes him somewhat weak.
* Started the Last War.
* Turned his grand-daughter into his sex-toy/Regent.
* Keeps his grandson shackled in solitary confinement/Hell.
* Has created a vast army of semi-intelligent eternal undead slaves.
* Enforces the "Code of Kaius" that's implied to be Draconian and Brutal
* Is...you know...a blood sucking creature of the Damned.
I think that Kaius is a bit like Strahd. He's sympathetic and he had his reasons for what he does, but when you get right down to it....he was always a bad person.
Doctor Doom and Kaius both love their nations but that doesn't invalidate what they do to everyone around them.
* Started the Last War.
* Turned his grand-daughter into his sex-toy/Regent.
* Keeps his grandson shackled in solitary confinement/Hell.
* Has created a vast army of semi-intelligent eternal undead slaves.
* Enforces the "Code of Kaius" that's implied to be Draconian and Brutal
* Is...you know...a blood sucking creature of the Damned.
Um...maybe I should re-read on Karrnath...
...
Doctor Doom and Kaius both love their nations but that doesn't invalidate what they do to everyone around them.
You get a
for the Doctor Doom reference. Latveria FTL (for the lose)!Also, keep in mind that the undead soldiers don't just walk around among the common citizenry, they are kept at isolated areas of the border.
The Code of Kaius exists because a people with free choice might continue to worship with the Blood of Vol, which Kaius can't allow. Kaius wants what he wants, and he has no moral qualms about doing anything to get it.
But enough about Kaius, this is supposed to be about Karrnath. It's probably a mixed deal. On one hand, all of the cruelty for cruelty's sake stuff that might have previously gone on in Karnnath I think may have been officially suspended when Kaius III came to power, but then again, Kaius isn't the whole government. I'm sure there are many low and mid-level officials within the government that miss the old days of complete power over the masses, and hate Kaius for trying to take them away.
I say that Kaius has tried to suspend government cruelty, not because he's a soft-hearted guy, but because he's smart enough to realize that sort of thing will eventually goad the people to rise against him, and he needs them to fund his crusade against Vol.
So, to sum up, it's bad, but it's not all bad. Yes, Karnnath is a totalitarian monarchy, but I really think that Kaius's spy network probably let's a lot of things slide. The government's not preoccupied with keeping the citizenry down, just paying taxes while spending as little money on their welfare as possible.
On the other hand, I'm inclined to think there are a great many private organizations around that exist simply to help the average person survive. People realize that if they don't help each other, no one else will. This doesn't make the Karnnathi people cheery, of course, just pragmatic.
Karrnathi Peasant (survived the War): "It sucks. My military pension is three months overdue, my son is under arrest for expressing Emerald Order sympathy, and that coward Kaius pulled back just when things were turning in our favor. Sucks, I tell you."
Brelish Merchant (overhearing this in tavern): "Yeah, Karrnath has seen better days."
Karrnathi Peasant: "You take that back, or I'll stab you with this cheese rind."
Brelish Merchant: "But you just said--"
Karrnathi Peasant: "Cheese rind!"
Karrnath is, of course, what you make it. But I can find lots of noble ideals buried in that brutal and necromancy-clouded regime. And I really like Kaius I/III. I love that he helped ignite the war yet wants more than anyone to prevent it from happening again. Having been with Karrnath since the start of the war, he seems to truly embody his nation: doing whatever it takes to get the job done, or even just survive.
Good Kaius. :DHe was, however, knowing he was going to become SOME kind of undead.
Although the necromantic influences of vampiredom may have corrupted him, this in itself may have seemed a noble sacrifice at the time.
The Blood of Vol preaches that the undead are people who have sacrificed everything for the good fight, after all. That many (I hesitate to say all simply because there are probably a few exceptions lurking somewhere) of the undead don't necessarily share this opinion, and that whatever objective methods you may have to claim this is trickery by the leaders of the Blood doesn't mean that the mortal Seekers do not see them as noble and good.
So I would think that it is perfectly possible, as a Seeker at least, to become a vampire or other undead out of motives as noble as those of any Silver Flame paladin. It's only afterwards that they may realise what undeath really means and what they have done. By that point, their mind may be so warped, however, that they are beyond regretting it.
As for my own view of Karrnath:
I don't see the nation as totalitarian. I do see it engage in military displays, patriotic propaganda, rousing speeches and the like, but less so in planting spies in every neighbourhood, teaching children to betray their parents, or using what resources they have to really shape people's private lives (like Riedra does). There also does not seem to be a wide-ranging personality cult of Kaius III (any more so than of Aurala or Boranel). The corpse collectors claim people after death, true, and their is conscription, but I see no evidence for the state to control religion (the Blood of Vol is not prohibited countrywide, it simply is not a state religion any more), commerce (the Dragonmarked Houses would not stand for it), or intellectual thought.
On the contrary, I see Karrnath as weak in interior politics. Far from being able to control his citizens, Kaius III cannot control his warlords, many of whom see him as weak after he declared peace. He is so far merely hoping they do not band together under someone else and challenge him. His warlords have smelled blood, and are cautiously trying to see how weak he really is.
I have no doubt the Dark Cabinet has its plants and observers, and even agents procovateurs amidst the warlords. This is where the Code of Kaius comes into effect, IMC, because its harsh penalties are the only thing (so Kaius believes) that will keep his vassals (and the more fanatic Seekers) in line. I see the aristocrats as the most frequent victims of the Code, with treason trials being common currency. With regards to them, I can see all the worst aspects of totalitarianism: enticing those closest to them to betray them, constant surveillance, and so on. The Code is severe, but I see the reason for this in Kaius' trouble to otherwise keep those terrified who would challenge him... because Kaius III himself feels threatened. Whether that idea is working out is of course difficult to say.
But the way I see Karrnath is with the King holding sway in Korth, Rekkenmark and Karrlakton (perhaps), while he has virtually no authority in Atur and the rest of the country is highly feudal... and in my Karrnath, the Kaius III has about as much power there as the Emperor of the German Empire had over his vassals in the 12th and 13th centuries.
That doesn't make Karrnath a nice place: I see plenty of the warlords exploiting the common folk and treating them as serfs (or food supply, for the vampires and the Bathory-types). Essentially, outside of the big cities and their surroundings, as well as a few strongholds (where people live in circumstances close to those of other nations), the law dissolves into a completely arbitrary mess based on the whim of local lords.
As for Kaius III himself: yes, he is evil. He has lost his sense of limits. Kaius will torture or wipe out an entire village along with its warlord if he feels threatened. Death penalties are more common than elsewhere, and designed to be showy deterrence (perhaps not so much cruel in themselves as leaving the corpses hanging around until they've been dissolved by weather and elements - note: this is the place to bring Antigone-type characters in). Any act that threatens the realm or the good citizens (crime-guilds, warmongering, etc) is harshly punished, as Kaius over-reacts.
Kaius III feels threatened, by the Blood of Vol, by his warlords, by Vol herself, and not least by his own drives, so he is prone to lash out when irritated. But he is otherwise fair. He is lawful, so he will give people a hearing, allow legal counsel, and perhaps even the opportunity to chose honourable death by suicide before condemnation. He keeps his word and never goes back on his deals. Taxes are hard, but the money is spent on the country, not on his own needs - he has virtually none, as an undead. He has made deals with the Reaches to bring in food, and I can see Karrnath as having a state-run salvation army, orphanages, homes for invalids and war-widows/widowers, with agreements between the crown and House Jorasco.
All of the above is, of course, IMO/IMC.
Although the necromantic influences of vampiredom may have corrupted him, this in itself may have seemed a noble sacrifice at the time.
...
All of the above is, of course, IMO/IMC.
I like. Some really good ideas in this.
The continuance of martial law is due to numerous factions that still resist the Karnnathi crown, if Kaius were to remove this status the kingdom would most likely break into anarchy. And also don't forget that he and Boranel where the first to sign the Treaty of Thronehold and where the most powerful signatories along with Aurala. At the time of the signing Breland and Karnnath where on a good footing and could have continued the war, although Kaius isn't as idealistic as Boranel, he acts rationally and saw that a call to peace was a good idea.
As for the weather well look at the geography of where Karnnath is situated, fat to the north where the winds frmo the Frostfell are likely to hit and without many Lyrander enclaves in the area the weather suffers as a result. There are many evil factions in Karnnath (with 2 evil aligned house patriarchs residing in the country) but have a look at Sharn and see how many self-serving "evil" factions exist there. So although there is evil and although the area does have a dark feel (probably have very short days in winter with them being long as well) Karrnath has a scary feel to it, which is great for setting adventures btu remember that there is some "good" there too.
In short summary think of a ghost horror movie where the ghost does terrible things because it is in fact longing for love or something similar.
And afaik there was something that Karrnath has powerful industry, second only to Brelish, so it's not only feudal serfs working on land
the way I see Karrnath is with the King holding sway in Korth, Rekkenmark and Karrlakton (perhaps), while he has virtually no authority in Atur and the rest of the country is highly feudal... and in my Karrnath, the Kaius III has about as much power there as the Emperor of the German Empire had over his vassals in the 12th and 13th centuries.
The King of the Kingdom of Germany, actually, and the answer is not that much less then other Kings. Well, less then England, Denmark, but that's a matter of size, really.
A better comparison might be, say, the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire (who also, always, was the King of Germany) in the 15th century. Still holding some power, but lagging behind the other Kings, and said power is beginning to decay, as opposed to what is happening elsewhere (except for... Northern Italy, which was, theoretically in the Kingdom of Italy... which was another part of the HRE).
The King of the Kingdom of Germany, actually, and the answer is not that much less then other Kings. Well, less then England, Denmark, but that's a matter of size, really.
Liutprant of Cremona, 10th century ambassador of the Ottos to Constantinople would disagree. ;) He was quite adamant that Otto was an Emperor (not a "Rex", as the Byzantines called him, and which Luitprant chose to consider a slight). But upon checking the list of German Emperors, it seems as if the Kings often failed to be crowned during the time I quoted... even if the centuries before and after worked fine. So I'll have to concede this...
You have a point about the other kings. The French King originally had little power beyond what is now Ile de France, especially in, say, Burgundy and Provence (I'm not sure the Comtes de Provence were even nominally his vassals). John of England had problems with his barons (and with the Pope, and with the French...), of course.
However, the German Emperor/King had severe problems with keeping vassals under control. There were strong rulers, but I am thinking mostly of the time of the Investiture Contest - though Henry won in the end, much as I expect Kaius III to do in Karrnath - and of the troubles that afflicted the later Hohenstaufen. They do not show a large amount of royal or imperial control; I would not be surprised if the Blood of Vol or the Emerald Claw chose to elect their own King at some point.
But I concede that before the rise of the 'nations' in the late medieval times, no king had that much more power; so the 15th century might have been a slightly better comparison.
yes it's dark and gloomy in the north, but large part are bordering a desert.
And afaik there was something that Karrnath has powerful industry, second only to Brelish, so it's not only feudal serfs working on land
That's an excellent point, and thanks for making it!
Liutprant of Cremona, 10th century ambassador of the Ottos to Constantinople would disagree. ;) He was quite adamant that Otto was an Emperor (not a "Rex", as the Byzantines called him, and which Luitprant chose to consider a slight). But upon checking the list of German Emperors, it seems as if the Kings often failed to be crowned during the time I quoted... even if the centuries before and after worked fine. So I'll have to concede this...
You have a point about the other kings. The French King originally had little power beyond what is now Ile de France, especially in, say, Burgundy and Provence (I'm not sure the Comtes de Provence were even nominally his vassals). John of England had problems with his barons (and with the Pope, and with the French...), of course.
However, the German Emperor/King had severe problems with keeping vassals under control. There were strong rulers, but I am thinking mostly of the time of the Investiture Contest - though Henry won in the end, much as I expect Kaius III to do in Karrnath - and of the troubles that afflicted the later Hohenstaufen. They do not show a large amount of royal or imperial control; I would not be surprised if the Blood of Vol or the Emerald Claw chose to elect their own King at some point.
But I concede that before the rise of the 'nations' in the late medieval times, no king had that much more power; so the 15th century might have been a slightly better comparison.
Oh, he was an Emperor, but not of Germany, but of the Holy Roman Empire. Germany was a Kingdom, in personal union with Lothringen (the third successor state from the Frankish Empire) and (northern) Italy, which, together, constituted the Holy Roman Empire.
I need to get Eberron... this is the second time I've corrected people in this forum on side issues of their posts.
The political structure is much more solid, uses magical communication for administration, has a national image that keeps the populace (relatively) unified, and so forth.
All of you are comparing to feudal monarchies, which seem to be by definition grabasstic.
Oh, he was an Emperor, but not of Germany, but of the Holy Roman Empire. Germany was a Kingdom, in personal union with Lothringen (the third successor state from the Frankish Empire) and (northern) Italy, which, together, constituted the Holy Roman Empire.
Ah! That's interesting; I did not know there was a political concept of 'Germany' as a Kingdom different from the Empire with all the bits attached that are not part of modern Germany (Lorraine, Italy, etc) - so thanks for the information.
I think one of the major problems with these historical analogues is that the Four Nations, in my opinion, are just that: Nations.
The political structure is much more solid, uses magical communication for administration, has a national image that keeps the populace (relatively) unified, and so forth.
Oh, quite true. Sivis telecom and Orien rails and so forth make a huge difference. And there certainly is the national image factor. Eberron overall is not the European "Dark Ages". And I use those aspects myself.
However, I limit the technological aspects largely to the major cities; in the case of Karrnath: Korth, Karrlakton, Atur and Rekkenmark, and any I have forgotten. This (except in Atur) is where the power of the King is strong and nigh unassailable, based largely on the magical communications and other technologies.
On the other hand, I like to present the countryside, especially in the non-industrialised parts of Karrnath, as the most out-of-the-way places in the surviving Five Nations. The lightning rail does not reach each village, nor will you find a Sivis station there - in Karrnath or elsewhere. I also like to present many of Karrnath's warlords as actively and purposefully isolating their populace, either out of traditionalism or out of fear of losing their power - to the populace or the King - leaving large parts of the country feudal. It allows me to put in the more 'medieval' feel that I would not place in any of the other Nations.
In essence for Karrnath, I really like to create a stark difference between the feudal, grim countryside and the bourgeois, totalitarian but flourishing cities of a powerful nation-state. This would work quite well for Aundair too, I believe, but the Brightest Realm seems too... nice and clean to use this for grim (not evil) descriptions.
It needs to be emphasised that I cannot base myself on canon here. It's my own image of Karrnath. I can as easily see Karrnath as a highly organised, totalitarian nation state, a large military camp of a gigantic scope, connected through chains of command with each other, each part always aware of what the other part is doing, each part knowing where its place in the whole is. A nation that can be mobilised within days. But that, to some extend, seems to be what Riedra is. I want to get away from making these two nations too alike.
I'll just have to think more about the industry in Karrnath and how to include nationalism in my 'feudal' countryside, so thanks to Red Viper for pointing out the former, and to Ogiwan for reminding me about the latter.
On the other hand, I like to present the countryside, especially in the non-industrialised parts of Karrnath, as the most out-of-the-way places in the surviving Five Nations. The lightning rail does not reach each village, nor will you find a Sivis station there - in Karrnath or elsewhere. I also like to present many of Karrnath's warlords as actively and purposefully isolating their populace, either out of traditionalism or out of fear of losing their power - to the populace or the King - leaving large parts of the country feudal. It allows me to put in the more 'medieval' feel that I would not place in any of the other Nations.
In essence for Karrnath, I really like to create a stark difference between the feudal, grim countryside and the bourgeois, totalitarian but flourishing cities of a powerful nation-state. This would work quite well for Aundair too, I believe, but the Brightest Realm seems too... nice and clean to use this for grim (not evil) descriptions.
I have to say that this is pretty much my view on things as well. Though for me the difference is not only between the rural areas and the cities. I think that in every area in Karranth has a very different feel to it; this isn't just the mental picture that pops in one's head,but also a difference in the attitude towards Kaius, a difference in the way the people act and a different way of life.
For example: Korth is a big metropolis, it's the center of rule, but it's home to some Kaius' greatest opponents. So while you feel that he controls the city (it's not hard to notice a public execution), you're still exposed to a lot of criticism on his actions which to you seem very unnecessary.
Karrlakton on the other hand, while still being a big city under Kaius' influance, is much more concerned from the gray mist and the things that live inside it. If you live there, its perfectly easy to understand the martial law - it's there to ensure that Karrnth is stronf enough and organized enough to protect itself from the monsters across the river.
Compare this to Vulyar, where as far the citizens are concerned, all Kaius did was sign a damn treaty that gave good farmland to dinosaur riding halflings.
So as I was saying: if you look at Karrnth a region at a time you'll see that it is in fact so diverse that you can't say the entire country is one way or the other
I have to say that this is pretty much my view on things as well. Though for me the difference is not only between the rural areas and the cities. I think that in every area in Karranth has a very different feel to it; this isn't just the mental picture that pops in one's head, but also a difference in the attitude towards Kaius, a difference in the way the people act and a different way of life.
For example: Korth is a big metropolis, it's the center of rule, but it's home to some Kaius' greatest opponents. So while you feel that he controls the city (it's not hard to notice a public execution), you're still exposed to a lot of criticism on his actions which you which you are unnecessary.
Karrlakton on the other hand, while still being a big city under Kaius' influence, is much more concerned from the gray mist and the things that live inside it. If you live there, its perfectly easy to understand the martial law - it's there to ensure that Karrnath is strong enough and organized enough to protect itself from the monsters across the river.
Compare this to Vulyar, where as far the citizens are concerned, all Kaius did was sign a damn treaty that gave good farmland to dinosaur riding halflings.
So as I was saying: if you look at Karrnath a region at a time you'll see that it is in fact so diverse that you can't say the entire country is one way or the other
Still sounds a lot like Canada. We're the second-largest country with respect to land mass in the world, and we've a HECK of a lot more variation in said land mass than the first. Alberta's different from Ontario, Saskatchewan's different from Newfoundland, everyone's different from Quebec.... About the only thing we share in common is a view that Ottawa is screwing us over.
Still sounds a lot like Canada. We're the second-largest country with respect to land mass in the world, and we've a HECK of a lot more variation in said land mass than the first. Alberta's different from Ontario, Saskatchewan's different from Newfoundland, everyone's different from Quebec.... About the only thing we share in common is a view that Ottawa is screwing us over.
And here I thought that the only thing separating Canadians is the debate on who's got the hockey team...
And here I thought that the only thing separating Canadians is the debate on who's got the hockey team...
Oh no. We've a lot of divisive issues. Admittedly, some of them WOULD seem pretty pathetic from the outside, but they're hotly contested. The prime example would be languages. Quebec (a primarily Francophone province) has -- "strongly discouraged" the use of English on signs. French is a required language in schools (I know in Ontario we needed at least one course in high school French to graduate); there's no problem with it in Quebec or New Brunswick (the only officially bilingual province), but you get people upset about it in, say, Alberta. Alberta is another issue. It's pretty rich (has oil), and the other provinces think that they [Alberta] should share the wealth with them [the other provinces]; Alberta thinks that they have a right to what they make, and Ottawa (the capital of Canada) is being unfair to them.
You have a point about hockey, though. I'm a minority in that I couldn't care less as long as a Canadian team wins the Stanley Cup. Oh, and mocking the Leafs is always amusing.
You have a point about hockey, though. I'm a minority in that I couldn't care less as long as a Canadian team wins the Stanley Cup. Oh, and mocking the Leafs is always amusing.
I totally agree. [/hates hockey... and french class
]I totally agree. [/hates hockey... and French class
I hated French in grade school because our teacher was -- well, let's just leave it at that she was terrible. It wasn't so bad in high school; I took it all the way through, because the teacher was great, I liked learning another language, and French was the only one available at our school.
Military oriented society, mostly rural but with few big industrial hotspots, low population and with an emperor who has to keep his nobles from killing eachother...or him.
btw, would you remind me - did Kaius start the war himself or were other regents as guilty?
He was one of the three who rebelled against the legitimate succession. Mishann of Cyre should have taken the throne according to both tradition and the wishes of their father Jarot, and she was supported by Wrogar of Aundair, who'd sworn to support her to their father before he died. Thalin of Thrain, Wroann of Breland, and Kaius all refused to accept her claim, and resorted to force of arms to dispute it.
To be fair, he might have had reasons. Mishann, for example, seems to have not inspired much confidence in those monarchs about her.
But as a reader I don't recall anything that really justified what happened without assuming outside influence to be involved. All the reasons the assorted monarchs had for it that I recall seeing look rather petty on the whole, (I admit I've paid more attention to the modern era than the past so corrections if I've missed something are welcome), not enough to justify what actually happened unless you're some sort of ultra-nationalist supporting their ruler no matter what.
Edit: Or unless you assume the whole situation was manipulated into occurring by someone else. Plenty of candidates for who that could have been.
AFAIK there's never been a really detailed explanation of what the rebelling siblings were thinking, just generalities. I don't doubt that Kaius as written in the ECS had what he considered good reasons, and the same goes for everyone else involved too.
But as a reader I don't recall anything that really justified what happened without assuming outside influence to be involved. All the reasons the assorted monarchs had for it that I recall seeing look rather petty on the whole, (I admit I've paid more attention to the modern era than the past so corrections if I've missed something are welcome), not enough to justify what actually happened unless you're some sort of ultra-nationalist supporting their ruler no matter what.
Obviously, I think no one expected the Last War to last as long as it did. In this case, I honestly think that the Five monarchs didn't expect that the people of each individual nation would be so stubbornly resistant to annexation. Then people got nasty, mercenaries got involved, and pretty much everyone started to HATE the other side....which made conquest even MORE difficult.
Once the fighting got past a certain point, and that wouldn't have taken more than a few years I don't think, there just wasn't any chance of a peace settlement without some sort of external unifying force. Unfortunately that turned out to be the Mourning.
The consequences once it all started are pretty much as clear as dominoes falling. It's just the start which I can't see as quite making sense given the information we have.
The consequences once it all started are pretty much as clear as dominoes falling. It's just the start which I can't see as quite making sense given the information we have.
Well let's also realize that it's unrealistic for everyone in Eberron to also be COMPLETELY self-sacrificing and do what's right by their kingdom. It could honestly boil down to the simple fact that King Kaius didn't belong Mishann would make a good queen and the others agreed.
I think Keith will probably do something more than just "naked ambition" though I think it'd be a lie if it wasn't a major factor.
Quite apart from the reasons for which Kaius, Talin and Wroann rebelled, I never really understood how the system worked for nearly 1000 years. As I understand it, all the kings and queens of the five nations were replaced by the offspring (where available) of the new monarch after the succession. The old regents get retired, their offspring slip into comparative obscurity... how did that not lead to rebellion almost every time? Or have I simply misunderstood how the Galifar system worked?
I think they were mentored by the old rulers until they were mature enough to rule, so perhaps they didn't change all at the same time, and old rulers thought of them as adopted children.
And maybe there were rebellions, just not on the same scale as the Last War
Quite apart from the reasons for which Kaius, Talin and Wroann rebelled, I never really understood how the system worked for nearly 1000 years. As I understand it, all the kings and queens of the five nations were replaced by the offspring (where available) of the new monarch after the succession. The old regents get retired, their offspring slip into comparative obscurity... how did that not lead to rebellion almost every time? Or have I simply misunderstood how the Galifar system worked?
Well...above all you have to remember that Eberron is not a real world with real history. Instead it was created, AS A CORE IDEA, by one person, namely Keith (who's brilliant btw, don't get me wrong) and because of this MANY things are not very...if at all...consistent. And the absurd idea of Galifarian succession is not the only one that drives me mad from time to time...
But we have to remember that this is a fantasy world, made entirely for our entertainment and once again I have to say that I LOVE Eberron and I think that Keith is just brilliant!
Korth is a big metropolis, it's the center of rule, but it's home to some Kaius' greatest opponents. So while you feel that he controls the city (it's not hard to notice a public execution), you're still exposed to a lot of criticism on his actions which you which you are unnecessary.
Incidentally, Korth is the setting of my first novel, and showcasing the brutal Code of Kaius (in lieu of the Code of Galifar) and a slice of the grim culture of Karrnath was one of my primary goals. I did this through the lens of a Brelish inquisitive, so that the contrast could be made between the two nations.
So yeah, I'm a big fan of this corner of Eberron.
Sorry for the plug.... :P But I've been following this thread with interest, given the subject matter.
Concerning the Last War, I agree, I think it was very much a "all the [rebel/loyalist] scum need is one big battle, and they'll throw in the towel" style of thinking. When that battle was not as decisive as they thought it would be, and the war began to grind their standing armies away, then not only did mercenaries come in, but they required fresh troops for their regular armies, with the result that first propaganda was used to generate volunteers, and then conscription was used. Very much like World War I in that regard.
Concerning the start, I also don't think Mishann was exactly a steller figure, but look at the other two who rebelled alongside Kaius. The King of Thrane, wishing to spread the Flame wider (perhaps Mishann was opposed to the Flame or some such? Or perhaps the challenger was an ardent Flamer?), and the Queen of Breland, who wanted to spread this crazy democracy thing some. Feel free to correct me in either of these regards, but what I'm getting at is that Breland and Thrane had an ideology to spread, which is its own beast.
the Queen of Breland, who wanted to spread this crazy democracy thing some. Feel free to correct me in either of these regards, but what I'm getting at is that Breland and Thrane had an ideology to spread, which is its own beast.
Which brings me to another point of inconsistencies that has stricken me before. Not so much Thrane but mostly Breland. How on Earth did they have democracy within the wider Kingdom of Galifar which was 'feudal monarchy'? If you want to go really deep into this you have to consider the whole thing with the Code of Galifar and how having a legislative Parliament messes with the whole thing.
A lot of unanswered questions that we shouldn't really try to solve because they're gonna mess up the whole setting even more... Therefore I drop the topic.
Quite apart from the reasons for which Kaius, Talin and Wroann rebelled, I never really understood how the system worked for nearly 1000 years. As I understand it, all the kings and queens of the five nations were replaced by the offspring (where available) of the new monarch after the succession. The old regents get retired, their offspring slip into comparative obscurity... how did that not lead to rebellion almost every time? Or have I simply misunderstood how the Galifar system worked?
I think we can assume some serious incest was going on with the Ir'Wynarn line to make sure that everyone was suitably intermarried to stabilize succession. Likewise, the fact that any "Kings" of the land were never part of a long-lasting dynasty to begin with helps make sure that they don't have TOO much of the loyalty of their subjects.
Which brings me to another point of inconsistencies that has stricken me before. Not so much Thrane but mostly Breland. How on Earth did they have democracy within the wider Kingdom of Galifar which was 'feudal monarchy'? If you want to go really deep into this you have to consider the whole thing with the Code of Galifar and how having a legislative Parliament messes with the whole thing.
A lot of unanswered questions that we shouldn't really try to solve because they're gonna mess up the whole setting even more... Therefore I drop the topic.
Nah, I think it's fairly understandable that the Brelish had their own traditions just like the Karrns and Aundair did. The Karrns were always autocratically ruled, the Thranes have had a large tradition of Bishopries as Lords, and the Aundair Monarchyt seems to be more of a Triumviante.
Sure, there isn't a speaker stone post in every village. Still, what about Orien caravans and messengers? If, oh, say, Orien has people who's job it is to transport mail from one "district" to another "district", and then other people who then deliver the mail to whatever village the destination is (the village then distributes mail), and response is organized a similar way, well, edicts from the central government can travel via Orien mail lines to a backwater town, and even farmers come in to town to get the news every now and then.
To Jeff LaSala: When's your next book coming out? :D
To Jeff LaSala: When's your next book coming out? :D
Alas, I'm not able to talk about it just yet. But thanks for asking.
Quite apart from the reasons for which Kaius, Talin and Wroann rebelled, I never really understood how the system worked for nearly 1000 years. As I understand it, all the kings and queens of the five nations were replaced by the offspring (where available) of the new monarch after the succession. The old regents get retired, their offspring slip into comparative obscurity... how did that not lead to rebellion almost every time? Or have I simply misunderstood how the Galifar system worked?
The key was that the last King's program of massive arming of the nation was what gave the 5 princes/princesses the military force to go after each other and to ensure any rebels would be hard to put down. Jarot had been paranoid that a big war was coming, so he'd gone to high military mode and ordered the research that led to things like warforged.
Before that, likely each prince didn't have enough military strength to effectively revolt.