The other solution you can use, if you want to keep the actual existence of gods ambiguous, is that all gods are actually pantheistic, much like the Hindu faith. Every god, fiendish Overlord or spiritual philosophy like the Blood of Vol are actually aspects of the three Progenitor wyrms, who are the true, most basic spiritual beings of the world. Whether you believe the Sovereigns are ascended dragons or not, ultimately they are all just aspects of Siberys, Eberron or Khyber, depending upon what aspects of Creation they represent. So Dol Arrah, for example, would definitely be an aspect of Siberys, while the Mockery is a foul expression of human (and demi-human) behavior that is an aspect of Khyber.
I have used both of these explanations as "the truth" in my campaigns, but ultimately, the point of Eberron is that it is actually a big toolbox that you can reshape at will. If you don't like these explanations, choose your own, or even make divine power more explicit--the gods all exist just as single, individual immortal beings and the reason their existence is ambiguous is that they actually exist in the Outer Darkness beyond the boundaries of Creation. Why? You decide! Hope those examples help.
Who said they don't receive their powers from the gods. No where in any Eberron material does it say the gods do not exist, no where does it say they are not real. Then again nothing says they do exist.
All that is for sure that the only people who have the power have unshakable faith in the gods, or their god, or idol, or what not. But don't forget that NOT ALL people with unshakable faith have the power.
No where in any Eberron material does it say the gods do not exist, no where does it say they are not real. Then again nothing says they do exist.
More precisely, it does say that if the gods exist, they are remote and don't directly involve themselves in the affairs of mortals - the faith of the Host holds that they embody universal principles rather than being direct agents of governance. That would preclude them actively 'granting' spells to their clerics - but it doesn't rule out those clerics tapping into a pool of energy generated by the gods' divinity. I imagine that the Khorvese clergy are quite happy to debate exactly how this works, but in general, the conclusion is going to be "I don't know; it's a mystery."
I imagine that the Khorvese clergy are quite happy to debate exactly how this works, but in general, the conclusion is going to be "I don't know; it's a mystery."
This is the key. You're going to get a different answer depending who you ask. A cleric of the Silver Flame will assert with absolute confidence that his power comes from the Silver Flame - which is quite possible, as the Silver Flame is an energy force capable of binding demons of great power. A paladin of the Blood of Vol will attribute his divine powers to the Divinity Within, claiming that he is drawing on the spark of divinity that flows through his own blood. A priest of the Undying Court will say that the power of the Court flows through her, while a Valenar Keeper of the Past claims that it is the spirits of ancient heroes that empower him. Meanwhile, the agnostic sage at Morgrave University says that all of these people are actually drawing on the ambient magical energy produced by the Ring of Siberys and Khyber - that the only actual difference between arcane magic users and divine casters is that one uses science to focus and direct this energy, while the other uses faith as a sort of lens for intuitive casting.
Maybe they're all right - or maybe they're all wrong.
This is the key. You're going to get a different answer depending who you ask. A cleric of the Silver Flame will assert with absolute confidence that his power comes from the Silver Flame - which is quite possible, as the Silver Flame is an energy force capable of binding demons of great power. A paladin of the Blood of Vol will attribute his divine powers to the Divinity Within, claiming that he is drawing on the spark of divinity that flows through his own blood. A priest of the Undying Court will say that the power of the Court flows through her, while a Valenar Keeper of the Past claims that it is the spirits of ancient heroes that empower him. Meanwhile, the agnostic sage at Morgrave University says that all of these people are actually drawing on the ambient magical energy produced by the Ring of Siberys and Khyber - that the only actual difference between arcane magic users and divine casters is that one uses science to focus and direct this energy, while the other uses faith as a sort of lens for intuitive casting.
Maybe they're all right - or maybe they're all wrong.
This is one of my favorite things about the Eberron setting. The source of divine power is intentionally left ambiguous -- and each character in the setting has to decide for itself what it believes. Clearly divine power exists, since there are clerics and paladins out there using it, but there's no blanket explanation where the power comes from. I also love that there can be evil clerics of good religions and vice-versa. Just thinking about this I'm tempted to make my first 4E Eberron character a Good paladin of the Blood of Vol :angelhide
Just thinking about this I'm tempted to make my first 4E Eberron character a Good paladin of the Blood of Vol :angelhide
My first Eberron character (created, but alas never played) was a Rorschach-like paladin who'd weighed his own church in the balance and found it wanting, and embarked on a bloody crusade against evil in all its forms - including corrupt priests. It would have been a bit difficult to actually play said character in 3e with the group I was with at the time (since I doubt any of them would agree with my prognosis that Rorschach, in spite of being a paranoid psychopath, was also lawful good), but as far as I was concerned he still had his divine connection.
I use the "out of the way" approach with the gods. They could be out there, and grant power to individuals whose faith allows them to intuitively fufill the unknown desires of whichever faith they have. Or, maybe not. Is there a way to reach them? No known magic has been able to do so, and it's unlikely any such magic exists. As to their own goals, they can be determined with the areas of influence they hold and how they have inspired their followers to act on said areas.
In my last game session it was revealed by the Brelish mage in the party that he is in fact a Blood of Vol worshipper (low rung player so unaware of "the truth"). Hence started a five minute debate between the Thranite Swordmage and the Brelish Mage over faith and what it means to have a "real god". They ended their rather spirited (and highly entertaining) debate with both stomping off to go pray to their respective gods (one a pool of fire, the other the divinity within) at opposite ends of the camp.
And the Dragonborn Warlock from Argonessen just rolls his eyes and mutters "I don't know what you're all arguing about, I've met my gods and they're mighty impressive"...
What has been said already is pretty close to my views on the subject. It is also interesting to note that the faiths that can provide more concrete proof of their convictions seem to have a better conversation rate.
Using the Silver Flame as an example, I think it's doing probably some of the best work with converting people because of what it strives to do.. and the results it has accomplished. It's opposition to the undead is certainly a beneficial thing to most people (quite a few undead creatures crave the flesh of the living), and its opposition to evil is itself probably also appealing to most people.
The Silver flame itself is a tangible 'real' force, which can assumedly be seen and touched (with the appropriate consequences).
The only part I'm having trouble reconciling with these "distant and silent" gods is figuring out how people learned about them in the first place. I remember reading somewheres about the faith rising in Sarlona, but don't remember any of the details.
Actually, the Sovereign Faith seems to have roots all over the place. On one end, the humans brought this faith with them from Sarlona, in the time of Lhazaar. Then again, the goblinoids of Khorvaire, at that time, also worshipped a pantheon that bore a lot of similarities with the humans' Sovereign faith. In ancient Xen'drik, the giants also had a pantheon with striking similarities to the Sovereigns. Finally, the dragons of Argonessen (or, at least, those that follow the precepts of Thir) believe that the Sovereigns are ascended dragons in one step of their metaphysical existence. Given their importance in the earlier ages of Eberron, it could very well be the Thir faith that stirred up the notion of Sovereigns and cast forth a snowball effect that persists to the present day.
Actually, the Sovereign Faith seems to have roots all over the place.
Correct. The strongest argument that the Sovereigns do exist is the fact that you have a wide range of diverse cultures that worship clear analogues of the same deities without having had direct contact. From a purely mechanical aspect, the idea is simple. In Eberron, it is POSSIBLE to produce magical effects seemingly through sheer faith - to essentially start your own religion. However, this is extremely rare. PCs might have the ability to pull it off. As a DM, you can create a new cult that has divine power. But there's a reason that the Silver Flame and the Sovereign Host are the dominant faiths, and it's because they are the only faiths through which most people - even most clerics - can touch the divine. The priest who invokes some variation of Aureon (Ouralon/Ourelonastrix/etc), using some variation of his symbol or the heirogram, has a greater chance of being able to produce miracles - IE, divine magic. Thus, the reason the Sovereigns appear in so many colors is essentially cultural evolution, with the faiths that provide easier access to divine magic supplanting those that don't.
The question then comes as to WHY people who worship the Sovereigns have an easier time getting access to divine magic. The obvious answer is because the Sovereigns exist and are answering prayers. But it's possible that they are aspects of the collective unconscious; that the more people who believe in one thing the more power that idea has (and as such the fact that the dragons worshipped the Sovereigns created a basic pool of divine energy); or that the Sovereigns exist as energy forms as opposed to sentient beings - in the same way that the Silver Flame is indisputably a source of divine energy, but is not an anthropomorphic deity. And this is a question we don't intend to answer.
I'll also point out that a common theory among the theologians of Khorvaire (at least the vassal theologians) is that the priest who "makes up" a religion and still gets spells from it is actually drawing his power from the Sovereigns (or Six) and just doesn't realize it - that you may THINK you're worshipping the Becoming God, but the fact of the matter is that Onatar is simply taking pity on you, or the Traveler is abusing your faith for its own mysterious ends.
So if you believe in the Sovereigns, the answer to Eberron's "I can worship my shoe" conundrum is easy; you may think you're worshipping your shoe, but it's Kol Korran (patron of travel) who answers your prayers. Rather than proving that the gods don't exist, it simply shows that they are merciful enough to share their gifts even with those who cannot perfectly understand their true nature.
But don't worry, various clerics: the gnomes wouldn't spread word of this. Sure, they'll tell the uppermost echelons of the world's religions, as well as remind them that this information could be shown to their followers. But oh no, it's not blackmail. It's just ensuring that the churches pay for the power they provide them. That's good business. Maybe one day, they'll even show them the proof.
Think about it: Why do Gnomes worship so many different religions? Why was there a Lycanthrope Purge and never a Gnome purge? How does Zilargo pay for all those airships? The conspiracy runs deep, my friends.
So if you believe in the Sovereigns, the answer to Eberron's "I can worship my shoe" conundrum is easy; you may think you're worshipping your shoe, but it's Kol Korran (patron of travel) who answers your prayers.
Minor tangent here, but I was somehow under the impression that the patron of travel was, well, The Traveler.
Minor tangent here, but I was somehow under the impression that the patron of travel was, well, The Traveler.
But he is EVIL, you cant offer prayers to an evil good can you??? :P
Minor tangent here, but I was somehow under the impression that the patron of travel was, well, The Traveler.
Despite the name, the Traveler is more of a trickster god, akin to Loki (or Raven in some Native American mythologies), than a god of travel.
Despite the name, the Traveler is more of a trickster god, akin to Loki (or Raven in some Native American mythologies), than a god of travel.
Actually, I find that the Traveler is quite the god of travel. Typical quests for its clergymen involve long journeys, and it is said to be walking the face of Eberron both in body and spirit. This being said, it is also a trickster god. Just as it is also a god of innovation.
Besides, there's also the difference between travel with a destination in mind (which would be Kol Korran's portfolio) and aimless wanderlust (which would be more typified in the Traveler).
Besides, there's also the difference between travel with a destination in mind (which would be Kol Korran's portfolio) and aimless wanderlust (which would be more typified in the Traveler).
Essentially correct. The basic point is that there's a lot of overlap between the Sovereigns and the Dark Six. For example, both Onatar and the Traveler are deities of Artifice. Both Aureon and the Shadow are deities of Magic and Mind. Dol Arrah and the Mockery are deities of War. Arawai and the Devourer are deities of Weather. The Sovereigns reflect what humanity sees as the positive aspects of these forces, while the Dark Six represent the dangerous or frightening aspects. So Dol Arrah and the Mockery are both war deities, but Dol Arrah is the patron of the virtuous warrior while the Mockery supports massacres and treacherous bloodshed. Onatar's artifice is in the service of civilization, while the artificers of the Traveler produce fantastic innovations... but like so many of the gifts of the Traveler, things that may change the world in unforeseen ways. The farmer will ask Arawai for her blessings; should that fail and the storm threaten his crops, he will plead with the Devourer to turn the storm away.
So the common tradesman setting out on a journey, with a clear destination in mind and a reason for going there, would ask for Kol Korran's blessing... just as a smith with a purpose in mind will ask Onatar to guide his hands. The people who will turn first to the Traveler are the wanderers who DON'T have a clear goal in mind, who want to see where destiny will take them, or the artificers who want to break free of established tradition and change the world with their work. The Traveler is about change and uncertainty. If you travel to escape your old life and embrace change - if you're not afraid of accidents or unexpected turns, as long as those accidents make your life more challenging or interesting - the Traveler is who you'll want to look to. If you're just trying to get from point A to point B as quickly and safely as possible, you talk to Kol Korran.
So if you're taking the shuttle to a business meeting in NYC and need to be there in an hour, call on Kol Korran. If you're going on walkabout in Xen'drik with no time or destination in mind, look to the Traveler.
The people who will turn first to the Traveler are the wanderers who DON'T have a clear goal in mind, who want to see where destiny will take them, or the artificers who want to break free of established tradition and change the world with their work. The Traveler is about change and uncertainty. If you travel to escape your old life and embrace change - if you're not afraid of accidents or unexpected turns, as long as those accidents make your life more challenging or interesting - the Traveler is who you'll want to look to. If you're just trying to get from point A to point B as quickly and safely as possible, you talk to Kol Korran.
I'm guessing this is why the Traveller has such a large following in Sharn amongst House Cannith. They don't come out and say it (since the Traveller is nominally associated with the Dark Six), but most offer a quick prayer before going to work (and another when they have a job interview with Merrix d'Cannith). Inspiration and ingenuity, all rolled up into one neat little package (and the Traveller is a complete wildcard, he's playing on everyone and no-one's side).
Correct. The strongest argument that the Sovereigns do exist is the fact that you have a wide range of diverse cultures that worship clear analogues of the same deities without having had direct contact.
Sorry it took me a bit to get back to this, but this is kind of why I’m confused. Multiple, unrelated cultures worshipping similar aspects of the same deities suggests that they’ve had some sort of contact with said deities. Have they? Are there myths or legends that speak of a time when the Sovereign host visited the goblins or the humans or anybody else who worships them?
If it were just a human faith that spread through pilgrimages and forced conversions, I could see maybe there being an influential prophet from Sarlona who woke up one day and said “whattya think of THESE gods?” However, the model you have here suggests that there has been some sort of contact and I’m really interested in hearing some of those myths. What did Dol Doran do, fer instance, that made a bunch of people around the world go “this guy’s the god of fightin’ stuff”?
Are there myths or legends that speak of a time when the Sovereign host visited the goblins or the humans or anybody else who worships them? What did Dol Doran do, fer instance, that made a bunch of people around the world go “this guy’s the god of fightin’ stuff”?
There are myths of the Sovereigns. Aureon's bargain to create the Shadow; the Mockery's betrayal of his siblings; the **** of Arawai; and many others. However, these stories are essentially like the prevalence of, say, the Deluge myth in our world. They're similar, but not exactly the same. So the giants have a myth of Ourelon teaching them the first secrets of magic, and of his Shadow. The Pyrineans say that it was Aureon who inspired the wizards of the world, and their tales are similar... but not the same.
The priests of Thir will tell you that these tales reflect actually events that occured in the past, events that took place in the Age of Demons and the Age of Giants; Thir holds that the Sovereigns are dragons who have ascended beyond the mortal plane. Perhaps that's the truth. Even if it's not, the dragons spread out across the world before Ourelonastrix's Folly and the stirring of Tiamat drew them back to Argonnessen; they may have spread myths among the nascent cultures they encountered. On the other hand, perhaps the prevalence of these tales suggests something else entirely... for example, what if the quori of the PREVIOUS age of Dal Quor (about whom almost nothing is known) chose to spread these beliefs through dreams? Or, for that matter, what if these myths are simple truth - not the deeds of dragons, but of gods?
So yes, there are many myths of the Sovereigns, and it's never something we've had the space to discussion (aside from hints with things like the Mockery's betrayal and the Fury's parentage). But they are supposed to be out there.
for example, what if the quori of the PREVIOUS age of Dal Quor (about whom almost nothing is known) chose to spread these beliefs through dreams?
Oooh... I like
*nets a plot bunny*