Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 nedmtrunks Mar 21, 2010 4:02:35	Hey We are 5th level atm, in 4e Eberron (Home Game) Our DM had us fight up against a Large Blue Dragon, he was i guess Young, so instead of fighting him, we decided to parlay with him. We won the skill challenge, and told him we were better alive for him to get riches, ect. We basically promised him we could get him the Ashen Crown so he could aka rule an entire nation. We are about to get the last peices of the Crown. So my questions are the following. 1. What kind of effect would promising a dragon his own nation have on the Dragons, that are the gods or whatever, not only the dragons that created eberron and the dragonmarks but tiamat and bahumat. 2. What nation or area would be the best for us to try to take over some how to full fill our oath to the dragon (we are taking our oath to the dragon seriously) 3. What kind of effect would this have on us as characters, Giving a eternal oath to a dragon as a paladin of the silver flame, would i lose my relgion deity, or my allignment? How would this effect my character.
#2 Kensan_Oni Mar 21, 2010 11:28:16	Hey We are 5th level atm, in 4e Eberron (Home Game) Our DM had us fight up against a Large Blue Dragon, he was i guess Young, so instead of fighting him, we decided to parlay with him. We won the skill challenge, and told him we were better alive for him to get riches, ect. We basically promised him we could get him the Ashen Crown so he could aka rule an entire nation. We are about to get the last peices of the Crown. So my questions are the following. 1. What kind of effect would promising a dragon his own nation have on the Dragons, that are the gods or whatever, not only the dragons that created eberron and the dragonmarks but tiamat and bahumat. 2. What nation or area would be the best for us to try to take over some how to full fill our oath to the dragon (we are taking our oath to the dragon seriously) 3. What kind of effect would this have on us as characters, Giving a eternal oath to a dragon as a paladin of the silver flame, would i lose my relgion deity, or my allignment? How would this effect my character. I hate to say it, but that Blue dragon isn't going to get that far. The Draconic Prophecy is too important, and unless you are going to give him his own nation in Sarlona, the Keepers of the Prophecy are just going to find and kill that little Blue Dragon out there. His own nation? Is he out of his mind? The least that will happen is he gets spanked and brought back home. As far as the effects on characters, that is hard to say. I don't think it would change anything on your character unless you allowed it, or you personally wanted to have a fall from the Silver Flame, as far as that goes. How it ends up playing out is completely up to you and your DM, and I don't know your group well enough to know.
#3 okaynowa Mar 21, 2010 12:27:56	These are the sort of campaign-specific questions that only your DM can really answer for sure. The only question I feel safe answering is number 2, because it's fun to consider. What nation is your best target? Right off, I'd rule out any of the Five Nations. The four surviving nations are too populous to deal with, and even if you could clean up Cyre, you'd have to deal with the returning refugees. Droaam and the Demon Wastes are ruled by precognitive hags and epic demons, respectively. Even if you could defeat them, you're then the ruler of some of the least desirable land in Khorvaire. Zilargo might be easy to conquer initially, but The Trust would ensure that it's a short dynasty. The Valenar would also love for someone to invade, just for the fun of pushing them out again (which I'd put money on). The Talenta Plains? Hm, now there's an option. The halfling tribes have a nominal central government, but it's such a new thing that it wouldn't take much to topple. The same goes for Darguun's 1st-generation ruler, the Lhesh Haruuc, although there's plenty of goblin factions waiting to pounce on a power vacuum. The Shadow Marches are technically unruled, though you'd have to tread lightly around House Tharashk to avoid bringing the weight of the united Dragonmarked Houses against you. The Lhazaar Principalities are another option, if you can convince the various fleets to recognize a dragon as the new High Prince. Finally, there's Q'barra, an often forgotten corner of Khorvaire. Not only are its power centers relatively weak and unaligned, but there's a substantial lizardman/dragonborn population that might actually enjoy having a dragon for a ruler. So, my quick ratings for countries in which to try installing a dragon ruler: Q'barra (vulnerable governments, pro-dragon population) The Shadow Marches (no government, opportunity to collaborate with Tharashk if approached properly) The Lhazaar Principalities (blue dragons in 4th love coasts, pirates care about results first and origins second) The Talenta Plains (little to overcome in the way of government, but little to earn in terms of infrastructure) Darguun (no heir apparent for the current ruler, but be prepared to spend all your time quelling other factions) Good luck! Sounds fun, really.
#4 Gilo Mar 21, 2010 12:48:17	Q'barra (vulnerable governments, pro-dragon population) Ruling Q'barra and reclaiming the city of Haka'torvhak could (in the eyes of the dragons of Argonnessen) upgrade the Blue Dragon status to guardian instead of a rouge -- saving him some spanking.
#5 okaynowa Mar 21, 2010 13:12:23	Ooh, good catch, Gilo. I had figured on suggesting "Avoid Haka'torvhak," but a little redemption and reclamation would go a long way towards avoiding Argonessen's censure.
#6 Kensan_Oni Mar 21, 2010 13:33:46	Finally, there's Q'barra, an often forgotten corner of Khorvaire. Not only are its power centers relatively weak and unaligned, but there's a substantial lizardman/dragonborn population that might actually enjoy having a dragon for a ruler.   No-Go on Q'Barra. It's already has ONE dragon Ruler (Corrupted at that). It wouldn't like someone trying to muscle in on it's territory.
#7 okaynowa Mar 21, 2010 14:06:40	But isn't that dragon ruler cursed to remain within the limits of its city? (Or am I thinking of the 3rd ed write-up?) And since it's corrupted, how likely is it to have allies beyond the tribes immediately loyal to it? The main advantage here is that the PCs are far less likely to cause collateral international incidents by taking out an evil dragon which few outside Q'Barra even know exists. Just speaking as a DM, there's a good series of adventures to be had in fighting through the dragon's servitors, navigating the cursed city, and finally confronting the fiend itself. Sounds like a classic adventure from any edition, really. It's a bit down the road for a 5th level party, perhaps, but with adjustments, it's something that could be the culmination of the heroic tier.
#8 Kensan_Oni Mar 23, 2010 13:09:13	But isn't that dragon ruler cursed to remain within the limits of its city? (Or am I thinking of the 3rd ed write-up?) And since it's corrupted, how likely is it to have allies beyond the tribes immediately loyal to it? The main advantage here is that the PCs are far less likely to cause collateral international incidents by taking out an evil dragon which few outside Q'Barra even know exists. Just speaking as a DM, there's a good series of adventures to be had in fighting through the dragon's servitors, navigating the cursed city, and finally confronting the fiend itself. Sounds like a classic adventure from any edition, really. It's a bit down the road for a 5th level party, perhaps, but with adjustments, it's something that could be the culmination of the heroic tier. Considering Every Green and Black Scale Lizardfolk Originates from that Dragon... that's a HUGE army of a nation ready to fight for it. It's the whole reason why it hasn't been established as a new Homeland for Cyre, is because they are in constant war with the worshipers of this Dragon. So not only do you have to fight off the Displaced of Cyre, you have to fight off the dragon and his minions, and then, of course, you have to deal with the Quotls, along with a  possible Silver Flame Crusade, as they organize to fight off those who try to claim what the dragon was suppose to be protecting, in the first place. Remember, the whole reason that Dragon is corrupt is that it's been protecting this Demon in the first place. Really, Q'Barra is probably the WORST location in the world to try to conquer. It's likely to start the next Apocalypse.
#9 okaynowa Mar 23, 2010 13:53:21	"Really, Q'Barra is probably the WORST location in the world to try to conquer. It's likely to start the next Apocalypse." --Kensan_Oni All good arguments. However, we're talking to the player here, and how much of what you cite is true is up to the DM. The Cyrans may want someplace easier to farm, and the Church of the Silver Flame-as-embodied-by-Thrane might find itself pre-occupied with territorial disputes closer to home (like Thaliost). Q'Barra could be the worst possible location to try a coup... or, it could be that the particular challenges presented by Q'Barra are more appropriate/interesting for this party than the challenges presented by, say, Karrnath. And don't misunderstand: I'm not saying it should be easy. Taking out a demon-corrupted dragon sitting on top of a hell-prison surrounded by legions of adoring warriors is the sort of thing that could take a whole tier, and reconciling the conflicting desires of other interested factions is the sort of thing that could be an ongoing process. But I am suggesting that Q'Barra has a number of elements that might appeal to a party already dealing with an ambitious dragon. Or, ya know, the Lhazaar Principalities. Cuz come on--dragon pirate king!
#10 Kensan_Oni Mar 23, 2010 18:23:22	Or, ya know, the Lhazaar Principalities. Cuz come on--dragon pirate king!  Much easier. That's be a good target. Take over a couple of Islands, let the Pirate Princes fight it out... That would be a much easier scale to handle for everyone involved, and lets the Dragon swoop down and snag up passing ship for loot. I would much rather go for that plan. Only thing to worry about at that point is the Emerald Claw, and you want to deal with them, anyway.
#11 bobiago Mar 23, 2010 21:25:23	Does it have to be one of the current nations?  I like to think that Breland, due to its size and parliamentary government, would have powerful provinces with near-autonomy.  Perhaps one of those provincial governors is weak enough to be toppled by your party, but the province is strong enough to break away from Breland and hold on to its autonomy under it's new master(s). I think it is a mistake to shut down player ambitions by spanking them with canon.  If the players want to have fun by toppling a government and setting up a Dragon as the ruler, then go for it.  The Prophecy and the Conclave or whatever Draconic resistance may form as a result are just adventure seeds.  Don't just tell them "they can't do that". Maybe in your version of Eberron, the dragons are not as organized as all that (they certainly aren't in mine).  Maybe your ambitious blue's ascension is a critical event in the Prophecy.
#12 Kensan_Oni Mar 24, 2010 4:23:22	I just think, in general, there are better targets then Khorvierre to look at. Xen'Drix is potentially ripe for Nation Buiding. It's a giant wilderness with tribal networks, but no real power source. Everfrost can be wrestled away from Giants, maybe. The Five Nations, being the center of Major Play for the World, should not be touchable on the kind of scale we are talking about here. It's less about spanking players, and more about keeping world intergity intact. Every campaign that I've ever seen that made large scale changes to extablished settings (Like the Forgotten Realms) tended to crash and burn, and then been ignored, in less then a year. It is best to avoid these kinds of pitfalls by placing this plan as far away from major story points (Like, for example, the Dales in the Forgotten Realms) as possible. While you are right that Breland in a way is large enough to swallow up a dragon fiefdom, I still have a hard time believing that a Nation that is the seat of House Cannith would not be able to draw forward a Warforged Titan Army to take care of a Pesky Dragon problem.
#13 bobiago Mar 24, 2010 21:18:02	I don't disagree, but let's indulge the OP and see if we can help him make his players happy.  In my Breland, which certainly may differ from others, I play up the loss of centralized power that a parliamentary government represents.  Powerful lords in medieval England were able to raise armies that threatened the crown, why not in Breland?  I have used this kind of dynamic, complete with ambitious, rebellious (non-dragon) lords, in my game.  Presuming the dragon in question is not a "raze the countryside and gobble up virgins" kind of dragon, but more politically astute, he might be even able to find some allies among the other provincial lords.  It need not be world-breaking - though it might form the backbone of the campaign, while the players try to keep their ally in power against the machinations of King Boranel, or perhaps they switch sides and try to bring down the dragon and restore the province to the crown? Breland being the seat of Cannith South need not be germaine, any more than Cyre being the seat of all of Cannith was.  They'll sell to anyone, and who would be more likely to have the funds to buy their expensive troops, poor King Boranel who has to petition the Lords for the royal treasury, or a blue dragon with a hoard collected over the millenia?  (and Cannith isn't supposed to be making Warforged any more, is it?) If my players were going the route of propping up a politically astute dragon, then I'd take that tack with it - sounds like fun.  If they were going down the route of taking over a nation just so a dragon could feast on the inhabitants (and my players wouldn't) I'd go your way and have them fight it out with a unified Brelish army, complete with Deneith mercenaries and some agents from the Chamber, and let them go down like good munchkins.
#14 Madfox11 Apr 12, 2010 6:24:20	Wouldn't it just be the easiest to become one of the dominion lords of Droaam? Sure, you will need to accept the hags as your overlord, but they allow their vassals quite a lot of freedom and they wouldn't care all that much with what you do with the tribes under your control.
#15 ellorin Apr 12, 2010 14:52:23	Conquering by force is not the only way of delivering the nation to the dragon. Turning the current ruler(s) into puppets of the dragon or installing your own might also work. For example, convince, brainwash or replace Ryger with your own candidate and the Seadragon principality is yours. Take control of the Iron Council and the riches of the Mror Holds ultimately belong to the dragon. If the dragon has shape-shifting capabilities your work would become so much easier...just make sure that the dragon understands the need to keep a low profile until he consolidates his position(not the easiest of feats, I know, but it might be necessary).