Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 smug Mar 06, 2008 12:35:04	The PHB pages for the new tiefling have been posted here (taken from DDXP). As I recall, the movement for tieflings to have nations and dragonmarked houses was in part based on the idea of supporting the tiefling's new role as a core race... and that they shouldn't just be isolated loners. But what if their role as a core race is to BE isolated loners? The one sentence description of the tieflings is "Heirs of a shattered empire who live in the shadows and do not fear the dark." It continues to say that tieflings are "left to make their own way in a world that often fears and resents them." They are a "race without a homeland", who have dealt with "centuries of other races' distrust and outright hatred." Given this, it sounds to me as though given tieflings a dragonmarked house, a recognized nation, or a strong presence in the cities of the Five Nations would be a strong contradiction of the role the PHB has laid out for them. They are supposed to be untrustworthy outcasts clinging to the shadows. Sure, they had a nation once, but it's looong gone; without changing anything in Eberron's history, you could tie them to either Ohr Kaluun or (if you wanted to go WAY back) the Age of Demons and be right in line with the PHB flavor. Now, Eberron has in my opinion given many of the races stronger flavor by going against many of the PHB archetypes (the Aereni don't live in little 200-person woodsy communities). But as I recall, the argument being made was that Eberron couldn't make tieflings rare outcasts, because it needed to respect their role in the PHB... and now it seems that role is "rare outcasts". So, should Eberron give the tieflings a place in the world - a house, a homeland - in spite of the fact that this contradicts the PHB? Or is it now OK for them to lurk in the shadows?
#2 dictionarydotcom Mar 06, 2008 13:08:29	Here is a simple fix I've thought up to replace the old and cliche races (Gnomes, Half-Orcs) with the new ones: My suggestion: -Retcon dragonmark of shadows so that Tieflings always had it. -Retcon dragonmark of handling so that Elves have it. -Move Mark of Scribing to Eladrin because Gnomes are gone. -Move Mark of Finding to Dragonborn to give them something to play with since Half-Orcs have a reduced part in the game. BAM there we go, new races get dragonmarks, old races become insignificant like they should be because they are lame anyway.
#3 smug Mar 06, 2008 13:25:23	Here is a simple fix... There's nothing simple about that at all. The Mark of Shadow isn't simply a character ability. It's the foundation of two dragonmarked houses, which are significant powers in the world. Are you suggesting that House Thuranni and House Phiarlan stay as they are, but are suddenly comprised of tieflings (at which point we're clearly going against the PHB's suggestion that tieflings are rare and distrusted)? Or would you eliminate the houses as businesses entirely just so those tieflings in the shadows can have a mark? Beyond that, the gnomes aren't gone. They will be a playable race from the outset from the MM, and Keith Baker's said that he's got a gnome PC in his Eberron playtest group. Meanwhile, Rich Baker's said that there will be half-orcs in FR, so I see no reason to assume that they'll be absent from FR. And if you did wipe out the gnomes, you know need to figure out who does the elemental binding. Are you just suggesting that Zilargo stays exactly like it's been, but is suddenly inhabited by eladrin? Somehow I doubt that's going to match well with the PHB flavor of eladrin... It's certainly a "fix", but from a world perspective, it's anything but simple.
#4 dictionarydotcom Mar 06, 2008 13:34:28	I said nothing about Zilargo at all in my post. You seem to be under the misinterpretation of Zilargo = Mark of Scrying, which is wrong and incorrect, but I'm sure you know that and are just playing the typical Eberron fanboy now and putting words in my mouth. Also, in R&C it specifically states that while Tielfings aren't widespread or common they are certainly not rare, so you are wrong at the point as well. Now scoot and go whine about sidebars in pgtE or how the Drow are portrayed in a novel. The people not totally against anything new being introduced to the setting have things to discuss.
#5 orionarisen_dup Mar 06, 2008 14:34:58	Here is a simple fix I've thought up to replace the old and cliche races (Gnomes, Half-Orcs) with the new ones: My suggestion: -Retcon dragonmark of shadows so that Tieflings always had it. -Retcon dragonmark of handling so that Elves have it. -Move Mark of Scribing to Eladrin because Gnomes are gone. -Move Mark of Finding to Dragonborn to give them something to play with since Half-Orcs have a reduced part in the game. BAM there we go, new races get dragonmarks, old races become insignificant like they should be because they are lame anyway. Have to agree with Smug here, that's a HORRIBLE idea.
#6 smug Mar 06, 2008 15:30:41	I said nothing about Zilargo at all in my post. You said that the mark of scribing should be given to the Eladrin "because gnomes are gone". If gnomes are "gone", what happens to Zilargo? Your post certainly sounds like these "lame" and "insignificant" races should be eliminated from the setting. Also, in R&C it specifically states that while Tielfings aren't widespread or common they are certainly not rare, so you are wrong at the point as well. And I'm not talking about R&C. Who gives a damn about R&C? I'm talking about the 4E Player's Handbook, which states that "Tieflings are not numerous", that they "hide in the shadows", "have no homeland", and that they have dealt with centuries of distrust and outright hatred. Beyond that, though, you didn't answer my question, which I asked in good faith. You suggest giving the mark of shadow to tieflings. That's NOT a simple change. Which of the following are you suggesting? Keep House Phiarlan and House Thuranni essentially as is, but make it a house of tieflings as opposed to house of elves. This would make tieflings the primary purveyors of both intelligence services and entertainment. If the tieflings are trusted as spies and also seen as common entertainers across Khorvaire, that certainly sets a different flavor than a race that's feared and often hated. Give tieflings a dragonmarked house that's NOT Phiarlan or Thuranni. If this is the path, what is the specialty of the house and who does handle entertainment? Give tieflings the mark without giving them a house. In which case, do the duties of the house get picked up by someone else, or are those services lost? I'd like to hear which of these you were thinking, DD.Com - or if you had a different idea, what it is. Basically, were you suggesting that the tieflings would be running an international business guild - thus implying that they aren't as scattered and shadowy as the PHB suggests - or that they have the mark but not a house? Likewise, the mark of scribing is trivially useful to a PC. But it has a very important role in the world, as the basis of international communication. In giving it to the eladrin, are you seeing the eladrin as manning message stations across the Five Nations? Or acting as notaries in the dwarven banks (another big Sivis business)? If so, that's fine - it's just not something that makes me say "Eladrin". So I'm not saying "Youcan'tpossiblychangeanythingeverwaaaaa". I'm saying that the "simple" changes you're suggesting have a lot of wider ramifications, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on these more complex issues.
#7 smug Mar 06, 2008 19:15:12	To clarify my original question: In the past, many people have said that Eberron should give tieflings a role that takes into account their role in the PHB. At the time, the implication seemed to be that they should have a strong and cohesive presence: a dragonmarked house, a nation, or something similar. The PHB defines them as having no lands of their own - tying a lot of the flavor to being heirs of a fallen empire (so, something like Ohr Kaluun). While it doesn't use the term "rare", it does say "Tieflings are not numerous", and that most grow up "in the roughest quarters of human cities and towns... (and) carve out a niche for themselves amid the squalor of the surroundings." Essentially, as described, they sound exactly like changelings. Few in number, feared and distrusted, living in the shadows of human cities, and often becoming "swindlers, thieves, or crime lords". I am not suggesting that tieflings should follow this path. I think Eberron can do something far more interesting than essentially adding more changelings with horns. But I know that there were people stating that Eberron should respect the description from the PHB in its interpretation. Now we know what that description is. So, does that have any impact on your view of the role tieflings should have in the setting?
#8 gibbo Mar 07, 2008 6:49:06	Well theres always the Mournland and its yet undiscovered cause, they may tie in the tieflings to have something to do with that. Or tie them into something to do with khyber/dragon below since there part demon/fiend blood heritage. Hence the mistrust issue.
#9 Alas Mar 07, 2008 14:18:11	In my campaign, tieflings will be most commonly encountered along the coast of Crescent Bay, where they have a semi-nomadic fishing/diving culture. The Demon Wastes are too dangerous to settle in, and the orc tribes dominate the Shadow March/Yrlag region, so the tieflings relocate frequently. They manage to survive because they're willing to swim where others fear... and people have found that it doesn't pay to hit a tiefling first. Other significant communities of tieflings will be in the Lhazaar Principalities (everybody's got their own wet rock out there), Sharn (just like everybody's got their little enclave in the city), and Vralkek (because in Droaam, horns and a tail are mundane). In the 5 Nations, they'll be treated about on par with goblinoids, for better or worse-- good enough to extract taxes from, but not a first choice for in-laws. I'm a fan of competing theories for tiefling origins-- some will claim they had an empire in the Demon Wastes, some will claim to be descendants of Ohr Kaluun, and others will claim that they are the product of planar convergeance. Seeing which claim a PC or NPC backs (and how) is more interesting to me than making just one of them the truth.
#10 d1tremere Mar 08, 2008 15:28:11	The 4E PHB page says they have no realms of there own, but instead live within Human kingdoms and cities. It also says in many ways they are human (includeing being able to have Tiefling children with Humans). It says they are not numerous (not rare), and that while some live protected in clans from ancient noble lines most grow up in the rougher areas of Human settlements and cities. By current Eberron rules this would likely mean two things. 1: A Tiefling could have any mark a Human could. 2: They set in the same rung of sociaty as Shifters. My advice Give them the same level of social status as Shifters and Changelings. Give them the opportunity to have dragonmarks and become rare members of Human dragonmarked families. Create a cult among Tiefling dedicated to there ancient noble families, possibly with ties to the Auron (Sp?) and a major crime family.
#11 taski Mar 08, 2008 18:11:28	I doubt they'd give tieflings human marks. Half-elves are part human and can breed with humans, but they never have human marks. I don't think tieflings need dragonmarks, anyway. Tieflings are already pretty distinct in flavor and mechanics. It's the bland, vanilla humans who need something unique to them. I'd like to see a small percentage of tieflings scattered around in the 5 Nations, and a few little communities of tieflings in various areas, such as the Lazhaar, Demon Wastes, Droaam, etc. I agree with Alas that they should be treated about on par with goblinoids. Playably tolerated, but still distrusted.
#12 kaodi Mar 08, 2008 20:11:47	I am still going with Demon Wastes, though they would be good in Ohr Kaluun as well I guess. I think perhaps if you wanted tieflings to have dragonmarks (though I do not think it is likely they will), the thing to do would be that they are a race that can have aberrant marks, but *ONLY* if they have human ancestors who had ture dragonmarks. So, most tieflings would not be able to manifest dragonmarks, but the child of a tiefling and a dragonmarked bloodline of Cannith, Deneith, Vadalis, Orien or Tharashk could.
#13 Johnny_Angel Mar 09, 2008 3:11:04	I don't see any need for Eberron tieflings to follow the same flavor as 4E core tieflings.
#14 Johnny_Angel Mar 09, 2008 3:12:29	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=949720&page=7
#15 starkiller_ Mar 09, 2008 10:11:49	Well my thought for my campaign is to give the Mark of Finding to tieflings (no one ever played a half-orc anyway) but not give them a nation. Instead they exist in the shadows of all nations (PHB flavor) but are loosely ruled by cabals and House Tharashk is the public face for those cabals. What exactly are the tieflings and where do they come from originally? Not sure yet but I like Keith Baker's planar-influence idea (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13475841&postcount=124) and I may try adapt it in that while some tieflings may breed true they don't always so the tiefling population (and continuation of a cabal) is not always growing in a predictable fashion. However, with a chance for a tiefling to be born when the planes are coterminus the cabals use their dragonmarked members to find the newborns and bring them into the fold and increase their ranks. Obviously newborns who have a dragonmark are extremely valuable to a cabal so you have the opportunity for intercabal friction as they race to find the newborns. There, I've kept the PHB flavor, given a unplayed Mark to a race that will be played, given the race a thematic flavor that I like, and haven't totally upended the world. Time for pancakes!
#16 Johnny_Angel Mar 09, 2008 15:28:00	I'm just going to keep the planar-influence idea for Tieflings in my 4.0 games and not worry about giving them dragonmarks or houses. They wouldn't be the only race in that boat. It's easy, it's quick, and it's simple. If you want to change it in your game, you have every right to, but I don't see any reason why it needs to be changed to be that way in the 4e ECS book. As for not using the mark of finding...honestly, nearly every Eberron character I have played with a Dragonmark has had that mark. Then again, I'm also the type of player who enjoys playing bards and monks in 3rd Edition, so maybe I'm an oddity. My opinion about what gets played and what doesn't: It all depends upon who sits at the table.
#17 Nived Mar 09, 2008 16:09:05	I see a lot of people talking about throwing away the flavor of the tieflings from the players handbook. I do not understand this. Eberron has never been about completely throwing out the flavor of anything. Drow are still dark elves, dwarves still live in mountains, ogre are still brutish, elves are still long lived, arrogent, militant, magical people, so on and so forth. Eberron does not erase and rewrite creatures, never has. Eberron rather, strips down creatures to their core concept and then builds a logical place for them in the world of Eberron, at the same time they ignore flavor from other settings yet retain the core concept. This often results in creatures with societies vastly different than other settings, but the creatures themselves do not change. Drow are still drow in Eberron, Mindflayers are still mindflayers, excetera excertera... And tieflings will still be tieflings in Eberron, like they have been. So we must ask ourselves "What is a tiefling in a nutshell?" I personally would answer a humanoid that traces its ancestory to a fiendish heritage. I don't think that's going to change in Eberron, it can't, if it does its not a tiefling. So while there are many good and interesting ideas being thrown around, I just don't believe that some of these ideas are logically viable given the design philosophy of Eberron in the past, and what we have been told by James Wyatt and Kieth Baker. Drastically changing the history is not a viable marketing stratagy. Eberron has a novel line, and it may not be canon so far as the RPG is concerned Wizards does not want to invalidate or outdate their novel line. The 13 Dragonmarks and the families have all already appeared in the novels and have all been important elements. Similarly books like Faiths of Eberron, Forge of War, Dragons of Eberron, even Dragonmarked, and particularly City of Stormreach are all fairly rules lite, with a lot of setting infromation. Wizards of the Coast will not want to invalidate that information (particularly with City of Stormreach as it is 4e compatible it says so on the back cover). Ergo one can reason that the big picture of the world will not change because of two races being put in a new players handbook. Sivis will still be a gnome house and they'll still have the mark of scribing, and Tharashk will still be a half-orc house with the mark of finding. If they weren't they wouldn't still be publishing material with them being NPCs. Hell in City of Stormreach Gnomes are second only to humans in the population figures. Expect gnomes and half orcs not to disappear from the lore. This is not me being a fanboy, this is looking at the product line in a logical and business perspective. That all being said, thanks Smug for the link I hadn't seen that till this thread, I suspect that the ancient empire bit may go bye bye in Eberron's depiction of the Tieflings (we already have plenty of those) but as footsoldiers way back in the age of demons, perhaps. Still I suspect that they'll not have a nation, and be fairly rare (on the scale of Changlings and Shifters outside the Eldeen), urban dwellers. They might find a niche in the Demon Wastes or Droaam, I trust in James and Kieth to provide plenty of options and neat twists to Eberron Tieflings... but I do not expect them to have a dragonmark or to suplant 3E core creatures in the history of Eberron.
#18 Marcus_Majarra Mar 09, 2008 23:41:27	In a way, their relations to other races reminds me of changelings' relations with other races. They are not trusted because of the powers they wield and have no home of their own. In any case, we should probably look at this matter more from a crunch point of view. Simply look at the mechanics, and see how they can find a good niche in Eberron.
#19 neofish7 Mar 10, 2008 10:54:27	I could see Tieflings as being born from those desperate during the last war. Piticularly noble families in Aundair (the magic know-how and arrogance), Karnath (the war famine, duty to ones country no matter the cost), and especially Cyre (trumph card during a losing campaign or a mutation/side effect from the mourning). I'm also sure many a soldier who lay dying on the field of battle would be more than happy to sell thier soul to a devil or rakshasha to live another day. At least, those pesky humans with a thier weak wills in all anyway... This way, tieflings are feared and mistrusted because it often represents a coward's or triator's choice. Though it also could be the choice of a hero, who sold his soul to protect others, and would lead to the whole, misunderstood hero angle (which I think tieflings are all about). Anyway, this is just one humble gamer's thoughts on the situation.
#20 smug Mar 10, 2008 12:13:51	Similarly books like Faiths of Eberron, Forge of War, Dragons of Eberron, even Dragonmarked, and particularly City of Stormreach are all fairly rules lite, with a lot of setting infromation. Wizards of the Coast will not want to invalidate that information (particularly with City of Stormreach as it is 4e compatible it says so on the back cover). Good point. City of Stormreach has a particularly significant role for House Thuranni that wouldn't make any sense if Thuranni was suddenly a house of Tieflings, and House Tharashk is likewise one of the four dominant dragonmark powers in the city. I have to agree, with that in mind - and given that Stormreach is supposed to be pretty much compatible from the get-go - I don't see the tieflings getting either of those marks. And the idea that they'll just let tieflings have any human mark seems extremely unlikely given the precedent of half-elves, half-orcs, and kalashtar - all arguably MORE human than tieflings, since the can mate with humans and produce human offspring, while the offspring of human-tiefling pairings are always tieflings (according to the PHB). I suspect that the ancient empire bit may go bye bye in Eberron's depiction of the Tieflings (we already have plenty of those) but as footsoldiers way back in the age of demons, perhaps. It just seems like that's WAAAAY back, though it's certainly possible. Screw 10,000 BC, that's 100,000 years ago - longer, if we assume they were around from the begining. I'm suggesting Ohr Kaluun because it's a pre-existing human nation that was known to traffic with dark powers and which fell - so the tieflings on Khorvaire can look back to that empire, but they can't go home again. It would also give a non-psionic race a tie to Sarlona and reason to hate the Inspired, which would be nice for breaking that out of the Kalashtar schtick. but I do not expect them to have a dragonmark or to suplant 3E core creatures in the history of Eberron. Same here. But I do hope that they have more going on that just being "changelings with horns".
#21 Nived Mar 10, 2008 12:48:18	I'll admit I don't know much about Ohr Kaluun, Secrets of Sarlona is the one Eberron Sourcebook I don't have, never saw it at my friendly neighborhood gaming shop and truth be told Psionics isn't my cup of tea and I never cared enough to hunt it down. So if this old human kingdom fils the niche for it, fantastic, I just am unfamiliar with it. The big difference between changlings and tieflings will be that changlings can hide their natures, tieflings can't. That'll have an impact on their psychology, and relations.
#22 smug Mar 10, 2008 15:22:06	Psionics isn't my cup of tea and I never cared enough to hunt it down. The thing about Sarlona is that it's not just psionics - especially if you go into the past. The dominant culture of Riedra is psionic, but the Syrkarn and Tundra aren't. Pyrine is where the Five Nations gets its version of the Sovereign Host. The Shulassakar of Khalesh were dedicated to the Silver Flame (if not by that name) a millenia before Tira Miron was born. And between the sorcerers of Corvagura and the mystics of Ohr Kaluun you had a strong arcane tradition. Not that this should convince you to run adventures there - but there's more to Sarlona than Psi. The big difference between changlings and tieflings will be that changlings can hide their natures, tieflings can't. That'll have an impact on their psychology, and relations. Absolutely true. I'm just saying that we do already have a "feared and distrusted race that's frequently forced into a life of crime in the bad parts of human cities." But yes, there's multiple was to spin that story and make it different.
#23 akumadaimyo Mar 12, 2008 14:27:54	I still don't think anything will change at all. I don't think Eberron will all of a sudden have Tiefling as a core race. I think you guys are completely missing out on the idea of brand new settings that might be coming out that will include the new core races.
#24 Cyber-Dave Mar 12, 2008 18:50:33	I believe Kieth has stated that all the core races in the Players Handbook will be core races for a 4e Eberron, as the goal of Eberron is to incorporate all elements of the players handbook. I read a quote where someone stated that a couple days ago, and I am pretty sure it was Keith (though don't quote me on that). That being said, a new "core" race might still be as obscure as changelings. Personally, I think all the new races are fairly easy to incorporate. The description of Thelanis is exactly like the description of faywild, and Thelanis is supposed to be the native of plane of Eladrin (according to the 3.5 Eberron core book). Considering that the plane is co-terminus for 7 years at a time, and even when it is not co-terminus it is not so hard for creatures to cross from it to the real world, that explains Eladrin. The dragonborn sound like something from Argonnessen; perhaps the next line of dragon privacy insurance after the seren raiders. Finally, tieflings sound like something that is fairly easily explained as coming from the Demon Wastes. Some of the tribes in the wastes already worship demons, so having some of those tribes (and their decedents) twisted into a demoniacally touched race is not so far fetched.
#25 akumadaimyo Mar 12, 2008 20:57:37	Actually, Tieflings come from Lhazar Principalties and Drooam. It's stated in the Players Guide to Eberron I think. Demon Wastes is not mentioned whatsoever but makes sense. Keith Baker also said any places with manifest zones work as well. I asked him tons of questions on it since I love Tieflings and Eberron. I already have one as a NPC so far.
#26 ieattrollsforbreakfast Mar 13, 2008 8:33:16	I think it would be a bad idea shift around the races of the Dragonmarked Houses (except maybe Tharashk, I wouldn't be offended by a change from half-orcs to orcs), let alone give one to tieflings. Tieflings exist in the setting already, in small amounts, but if tieflings are to become a core PHB race, there should be an interesting place for them in Eberron. Note that doesn't neccessarily mean the race should be common (half-orcs aren't). In my opinion, if tieflings become a PHB race, the role of Eberron as a D&D setting means that Eberron must provide tieflings with viable and interesting roles as player characters. It's the PHB after all - emphasis on players. I feel that it is vital for tieflings to have a meaningful role in the world and to have a host of ideas for players to draw on for character inspiration. I do not feel that this in any way requires tieflings to exist in large numbers, to have a country of their own, or for that matter to be a true-breeding race. They might end up being any or all of these things - but I don't feel that we MUST do any of these just because it's the path the core setting follows. Eberron diverged from the 3.5 PHB in a number of ways, and I see no reason for 4E Eberron to be bound to do something a specific way simply because that's how the core setting does it. I want you to be excited and inspired to play a tiefling in 4E Eberron; I don't believe that this requires tieflings to be found on every Brelish street corner. For more quotes from Keith about Tieflings, go here: http://www.dragon-above.com/index.php?p=4e#tieflings
#27 cyclonus11 Mar 20, 2008 11:09:27	Here is a simple fix I've thought up to replace the old and cliche races (Gnomes, Half-Orcs) with the new ones: My suggestion: -Retcon dragonmark of shadows so that Tieflings always had it. -Retcon dragonmark of handling so that Elves have it. -Move Mark of Scribing to Eladrin because Gnomes are gone. -Move Mark of Finding to Dragonborn to give them something to play with since Half-Orcs have a reduced part in the game. BAM there we go, new races get dragonmarks, old races become insignificant like they should be because they are lame anyway. Gnomes are not gone. They can still maintain a significant presence in the Eberron setting. Same goes for half-orcs. Just because they are not in the PHB doesn't mean Eberron will not let them keep their places.
#28 Cyber-Dave Mar 20, 2008 17:07:28	Gnomes in Eberron won't change any. Eberron already has nations populated by creatures from the MM. Having one more (with Gnomes) won't change anything, and they will already be a playable race (from the MM). My question is, are half-orc even going to be in the MM? If not, it seems like giving orcs the half-orc dragonmark will sort of be necessary in order to retain that marks flavor, no?
#29 zebastian Mar 20, 2008 17:24:58	I think Eberron's "Bael Turnath" is best placed in ancient Sarlona. Khorvaire has 20+ thousand years of goblinoid history; why wouldn't Sarlona not to have a simliar length of human history? The Inspired use human hosts that have mixed elven & "demon" blood. Tiefling blood in those veins would make a good substitution in 4E. Casting Tieflings as the scions of the nobility of a long lost diabolically inclined nation of Sarlona's ancient past seems a good fit to me. As for dragonmarks appearing among the Tieflings whom now inhabit Khorvaire, i like the idea that they would only manifest aberrant dragonmarks, and ones associated with Khyber at that.
#30 Cyber-Dave Mar 21, 2008 1:14:57	A very similar society already existed there Zebastian. I twas called Ohr Kaluun, and many of its decedents now live in the Demon Wastes.
#31 beavisfett Mar 25, 2008 2:32:41	Here is a simple fix I've thought up to replace the old and cliche races (Gnomes, Half-Orcs) with the new ones: My suggestion: -Retcon dragonmark of shadows so that Tieflings always had it. -Retcon dragonmark of handling so that Elves have it. -Move Mark of Scribing to Eladrin because Gnomes are gone. -Move Mark of Finding to Dragonborn to give them something to play with since Half-Orcs have a reduced part in the game. BAM there we go, new races get dragonmarks, old races become insignificant like they should be because they are lame anyway. Umm no and anyways the missing races from the phb will be in the MM and the new Eberron source book. As to lame I think the new races are lame.
#32 pgmason Mar 25, 2008 13:43:27	Keith's pretty much said that he's got ideas how to integrate both Tieflings and Dragonborn into the setting. 'Core' doesn't have to mean 'common'. Eberron's always had a place for D&D's more unusual races.
#33 the_simple_seeker_ii Apr 28, 2008 10:29:43	There are too many unusuals as it is. The T & D will not exist in the current Canon of (my) Eberron.
#34 douglas_zuver_dup Apr 28, 2008 17:21:08	Without rules for Dragonmarks, it will be impossible for players to have legitimate true dragonmarks until the 4.0 Eberron Campaign Setting comes out. Hence, there is no need to change Dragonmark races around any before the official books come out and after they come out, we can read the official versions of what do with 4.0 Eberron.
#35 Neutronium_Dragon May 06, 2008 17:26:57	> at the same time they ignore flavor from other settings yet retain the core > concept See, that's the problem. The PHB description of tieflings' role *is* flavor from another setting - the PoL-default one which the PHB uses as the basis for all of its flavor elements. The "core concept" of tieflings is simply "descendants of humans who made pacts with dark powers and were marked by it". All of the other fluff about how they're uncommon or live in the shadows of human society or that their empire is now fallen is PoL setting-specific flavor - and there's no reason why Eberron should be bound to that. In the same way, the FR is apparently giving dragonborn a still-living empire in the southeast rather than keeping to the "empire was destroyed and now they're scattered wanderers" setting fluff of the PoL one.
#36 mhacdebhandia May 06, 2008 18:28:09	If Wizards of the Coast doesn't go with Keith Baker's "influence of the planes" idea, I think a good place for tieflings would be as citizens of Droaam. It's already the place from where monstrous adventurers generally come, but tieflings would provide a more PC-friendly option for a character with that background. The Demon Wastes are just to the northwest of Droaam, providing a fairly simple explanation for how a community of tieflings could have sprung up in the nation. In fact, the wider world knows so little about Droaam that it would be fairly simple to say that tieflings have always been there, and no-one noticed, what with all the medusas and ogres and trolls that have people in Breland scared. Like those more monstrous creatures, too, tieflings could have a presence in the underbelly of huge cities like Sharn. They would make an excellent addition to the ranks of Daask, for instance. This sort of background could give the tieflings a similar prominence as the gnomes, the halflings, or the kalashtar - there's one nation which they can really call home, but they're also found as citizens of all the nations of Khorvaire, living in homogenous enclaves or otherwise. I think it would be absolutely ridiculous to retcon tieflings as having a dragonmarked house of their own, and I have confidence in Keith and the Wizards of the Coast team that they won't make unnecessary changes like that.