Some confusion with Seekers of the Ashen Crown - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Some confusion with Seekers of the Ashen Crown

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
quizmaster146
Jan 03, 2012 23:19:57 Howdy hey. In the near future, I am planning on running the adventure, Seekers of the Ashen Crown. I was hoping somebody who is familiar with the first area of the adventure (Ashurta's Tomb, where the PCs stumble across the first piece of the crown) could help me figure something out, or that you could help me by letting me bounce ideas off of you. I searched through the forums and didn't see any threads about this adventure from the last year, and didn't want to necro-post.

So, as a quick reminder, the PCs are hired to explore some goblin ruins (which turns out to be a tomb) because of a recent Kruthik investation affecting the nearby town of Sharn. What is intended to happen is that along the way, the party happens upon the tomb of Ashurta, and after a tough encounter (a level 5 encounter where the party may be level 2 or 3....more likely 3), they retrieve a mysterious artifact (the first piece of the Ashen Crown).

If you look at the map (I'll just put a link to it cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/65146/Page... ), you can see that there are tunnels running through the tomb, and you need to go through them in order to reach Encounter 8 and destroy the Kruthik Hive. Encounter 6 is the place they need to go to in order to get the piece of the crown and advance the story - even though they won't know about it. The tunnels also serve as an entry point for Kruthiks to enter the battle during encounters.

This is my concern: if the party realises that they can travel through the tunnels, they might just go straight to encounters 7 and 8 and take out the Kruthik hive without stumbling across the key plot-point, and then just leave. Alternatively, if they wind up going to encounter 6, they might endure a tough battle and give up on their initial mission (which actually might be interesting to see how that affects the story).

Has anybody run through this dungeon and know what to do about this? I think what I may have to do is wait to see which encounter they end up doing first (6, or 8), and then cause whatever boss they face first to shriek out in defeat, causing a massive rumbling, resulting in certain passageways caving in, and forcing the party to go where they have to. Then, if necessary, I can create another exit from the dungeon.
At first what I might do is allow the party to use the Kruthik tunnels (if they come up with that idea on their own), but deter them by having them get attacked (and they won't be able to defend themselves much since they are trying to squeeze through) by Kruthiks. This way they will know that this option is available (and perhaps I will make it more obvious over time), but they will instead progress through the rooms of the dungeon instead.

Does anyone have any experiences they want to share, or improvements to my ideas?
#2
Plaguescarred1
Jan 05, 2012 3:16:14 I know what you mean.

What i did is that i had the Party enter a tunnel in the Cog where the Kruthiks infestation happen to enter the Foundry and follow this tunnel, that at some point, emerge in a very old tomb. They came from a small tunnel just about where the number 1 appear. I put the emphases that this complex appeared old and not in any known map. This has piqued their curiosity enought that they ignored the rest of the tunnels for decided to explore the tomb.

They discover an old complex by happenstance and find out that Kruthiks have foughts undead goblins. What says undead, tomb also says treasure...Especially when it starts with a magical banner and more !

Also the runes saying here lies the keeper of a crown is something to fuel desire:

Ashurta, slayer of these weaklinas, keeper of the Blade of the
Ashen Crown. Even in death, he is stoic and strona. The miaht of
Xoriat has not bested him, and HeIlaoes with him.

And let them discover this info passively rather than with Skills roll. In other words, give them the info freely. Knowing that you've just found a 5,000 years old tomb that hasn't been visited by Humans is something to drive them to explore further. My player's did with a lot of interest.

DC 7: Clearly, this Ashurta claims to have killed those who possessed these skulls.
DC 10: "Hell goes with him" is a common saying among goblins. It refers to influence over devils or other beings of a fiendish or fiery nature.
DC 15: lfthe "might ofXoriat" didn't best Ashurta, he might have fought in the war against the flesh -shaping daelkyr. This tomb could be more than 5,000 years old.

#3
quizmaster146
Jan 05, 2012 14:21:26 Hmmm, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I can definitely do something like that. Perhaps I can suggest that the first goblin group (the name escapes me right now) went there (apparently) to investigate the Kruthlik Hive, and the party is sent in to clean up the mess. And then they unexpectantly stumble across a tomb. Mystery, intrigue, discovery. I like it! I like it!

After that point, they can be free to use the tunnels to travel throughout the entire area. If they complete the Kruthlik assignment first, they may still wish to explore.

Thank you so much for the input.
#4
nerraDetroK
Jan 05, 2012 15:53:35
Hmmm, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I can definitely do something like that. Perhaps I can suggest that the first goblin group (the name escapes me right now) went there (apparently) to investigate the Kruthlik Hive, and the party is sent in to clean up the mess. And then they unexpectantly stumble across a tomb. Mystery, intrigue, discovery. I like it! I like it!

After that point, they can be free to use the tunnels to travel throughout the entire area. If they complete the Kruthlik assignment first, they may still wish to explore.

Thank you so much for the input.

I'm actually running this module for my new group satarting this Sunday. They're not familiar with Eberron at all, so I'll have to fill them in on what Xoriat is, the Daelkyr, and the ancient Dhakhaani Empire.

I think my players are tresure huntery enough to want to check out the rest of the Tomb.
I'm adding a little more to it- that the Kruthik are getting wings because of a Prophecy Mark in their nest that will affect all of the Players.
I only have 3 players for now, so they'll get a Companion Character to flesh out the party. Most likely a Goblin who'll know the history and can explain it to them if they don't get it. I don't think any of the other players know Goblin as a language, but I'll connect the Ashen Crown, whcih was originally Elven, to my elf PC's history and story.

You'll likely have to up some of the DC's in the skill challenges, otherwise a moderately trained PC in Perception will be able to see just about everything, including the ambushes later in the adventure.
#5
pentay
Jan 05, 2012 18:27:29
You'll likely have to up some of the DC's in the skill challenges, otherwise a moderately trained PC in Perception will be able to see just about everything, including the ambushes later in the adventure.

I highly suggest you read this article by ObsidianCrane. Really great article on how to use Active vs. Passive perception (imho).

#6
nerraDetroK
Jan 05, 2012 19:53:17
You'll likely have to up some of the DC's in the skill challenges, otherwise a moderately trained PC in Perception will be able to see just about everything, including the ambushes later in the adventure.

I highly suggest you read this article by ObsidianCrane. Really great article on how to use Active vs. Passive perception (imho).

That was a great article. I knew that passive Perception means you don't see everything, but this really explains how to use Passive vs Active.
Passive lets you see the tracks in the forest, the Active check tells you what kind of animal or person left the tracks, with a high enough check it could tell you how many and how fast they're moving.

It's definitely changing how I'll run perception in my game. Still useful to have high perception, but incredibly high number doesn't mean that you're Sherlock Holmes.

Thanks for the advice!

ps- I still plan on increasing the DC's for the skill challenges and checks- to match the new math on the latest DM Screen. I haven't looked at it in depth, but I only expect 1 or 2 higher.
#7
quizmaster146
Jan 05, 2012 21:51:02 Hmmm, a difference between actively and passively perceiving something. That is a good point.

But yeah, I think the DCs in this adventure are ridiculously low. Minimum, I am going to bump them all up by 5, and perhaps even by 10 in some cases.

Having a Goblin around to explain the significance of what the party has found sounds like you'll be able to guide the party well. Go with it.
#8
pentay
Jan 06, 2012 13:58:20
But yeah, I think the DCs in this adventure are ridiculously low. Minimum, I am going to bump them all up by 5, and perhaps even by 10 in some cases.

I don't think that's fair to your PCs. You should consider the level your PCs should be at when they make the check. If the check was easy for a first level, then change it to easy for a first level using the revisied DC by level table (RC 126).

Take pg 8 under '7. Chittering Reception'. It lists checks of 8, 10, 8, and 12. These checks should be for a 1st level PC. We look at the DC by level (DMG1 42) and see that an 8 is between easy and moderate, a 10 is moderate, and a 12 is between moderate and hard. Now we look at the revised level and change the 8s to 10s, the 10 to a 12, and the 12 to a 15. Don't penalize your PCs for investing in their skills and/or abilities.

Remember...
* you can ONLY take 10 when you're not 'in a rush or involved in an encounter or a skill challenge' (RC 127).
* passive checks are for 'opposed checks' only (RC 127)

If that doesn't work for you, follow the guide on RC 126. A 65% chance success for an easy DC means a d20 roll of 8+, a moderate is a d20 roll of 13+, and a hard is a d20 roll of 17+. Add to this the PC's average modifier and you have your DCs.

Example: The PC's average modifier for a skill is +6. That means an easy DC is 14 (6+8), a moderate DC is 19, and a hard DC is 23.

This doesn't penalize your PCs (who were smart to invest in their skills/abilities) by adding a straight 5 or 10 to the DCs which can lower the success rate below 65%.
#9
pentay
Jan 06, 2012 20:15:14
If that doesn't work for you, follow the guide on RC 126. A 65% chance success for an easy DC means a d20 roll of 8+, a moderate is a d20 roll of 13+, and a hard is a d20 roll of 17+. Add to this the PC's average modifier and you have your DCs.

Realized my math is a little suspect. The success rate they're looking for is 65% overall (d20 of 8+).

Easy is an untrained, unskilled check; basically a +0 modifier.

Medium is a trained or skilled check; basically a +4/5 modifier.

Hard is a trained and skilled check; basically a +9 modifier.

Now look at your PCs skill. Select the lowest value. Say it's a +2. Now add that modifier and the easy/medium/hard modifier above to get the DC. Thus a minimum of +2 would result in DCs of 10 (8+0+2), 14/15 (8+4/5+2), and 19 (8+9+2).

Or use the average. For the +6 example, the DCs would be 14, 18/19, and 23.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 quizmaster146 Jan 03, 2012 23:19:57	Howdy hey. In the near future, I am planning on running the adventure, Seekers of the Ashen Crown. I was hoping somebody who is familiar with the first area of the adventure (Ashurta's Tomb, where the PCs stumble across the first piece of the crown) could help me figure something out, or that you could help me by letting me bounce ideas off of you. I searched through the forums and didn't see any threads about this adventure from the last year, and didn't want to necro-post. So, as a quick reminder, the PCs are hired to explore some goblin ruins (which turns out to be a tomb) because of a recent Kruthik investation affecting the nearby town of Sharn. What is intended to happen is that along the way, the party happens upon the tomb of Ashurta, and after a tough encounter (a level 5 encounter where the party may be level 2 or 3....more likely 3), they retrieve a mysterious artifact (the first piece of the Ashen Crown). If you look at the map (I'll just put a link to it cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/65146/Page... ), you can see that there are tunnels running through the tomb, and you need to go through them in order to reach Encounter 8 and destroy the Kruthik Hive. Encounter 6 is the place they need to go to in order to get the piece of the crown and advance the story - even though they won't know about it. The tunnels also serve as an entry point for Kruthiks to enter the battle during encounters. This is my concern: if the party realises that they can travel through the tunnels, they might just go straight to encounters 7 and 8 and take out the Kruthik hive without stumbling across the key plot-point, and then just leave. Alternatively, if they wind up going to encounter 6, they might endure a tough battle and give up on their initial mission (which actually might be interesting to see how that affects the story). Has anybody run through this dungeon and know what to do about this? I think what I may have to do is wait to see which encounter they end up doing first (6, or 8), and then cause whatever boss they face first to shriek out in defeat, causing a massive rumbling, resulting in certain passageways caving in, and forcing the party to go where they have to. Then, if necessary, I can create another exit from the dungeon. At first what I might do is allow the party to use the Kruthik tunnels (if they come up with that idea on their own), but deter them by having them get attacked (and they won't be able to defend themselves much since they are trying to squeeze through) by Kruthiks. This way they will know that this option is available (and perhaps I will make it more obvious over time), but they will instead progress through the rooms of the dungeon instead. Does anyone have any experiences they want to share, or improvements to my ideas?
#2 Plaguescarred1 Jan 05, 2012 3:16:14	I know what you mean. What i did is that i had the Party enter a tunnel in the Cog where the Kruthiks infestation happen to enter the Foundry and follow this tunnel, that at some point, emerge in a very old tomb. They came from a small tunnel just about where the number 1 appear. I put the emphases that this complex appeared old and not in any known map. This has piqued their curiosity enought that they ignored the rest of the tunnels for decided to explore the tomb. They discover an old complex by happenstance and find out that Kruthiks have foughts undead goblins. What says undead, tomb also says treasure...Especially when it starts with a magical banner and more ! Also the runes saying here lies the keeper of a crown is something to fuel desire: Ashurta, slayer of these weaklinas, keeper of the Blade of the Ashen Crown. Even in death, he is stoic and strona. The miaht of Xoriat has not bested him, and HeIlaoes with him. And let them discover this info passively rather than with Skills roll. In other words, give them the info freely. Knowing that you've just found a 5,000 years old tomb that hasn't been visited by Humans is something to drive them to explore further. My player's did with a lot of interest. DC 7: Clearly, this Ashurta claims to have killed those who possessed these skulls. DC 10: "Hell goes with him" is a common saying among goblins. It refers to influence over devils or other beings of a fiendish or fiery nature. DC 15: lfthe "might ofXoriat" didn't best Ashurta, he might have fought in the war against the flesh -shaping daelkyr. This tomb could be more than 5,000 years old.
#3 quizmaster146 Jan 05, 2012 14:21:26	Hmmm, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I can definitely do something like that. Perhaps I can suggest that the first goblin group (the name escapes me right now) went there (apparently) to investigate the Kruthlik Hive, and the party is sent in to clean up the mess. And then they unexpectantly stumble across a tomb. Mystery, intrigue, discovery. I like it! I like it! After that point, they can be free to use the tunnels to travel throughout the entire area. If they complete the Kruthlik assignment first, they may still wish to explore. Thank you so much for the input.
#4 nerraDetroK Jan 05, 2012 15:53:35	Hmmm, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I can definitely do something like that. Perhaps I can suggest that the first goblin group (the name escapes me right now) went there (apparently) to investigate the Kruthlik Hive, and the party is sent in to clean up the mess. And then they unexpectantly stumble across a tomb. Mystery, intrigue, discovery. I like it! I like it! After that point, they can be free to use the tunnels to travel throughout the entire area. If they complete the Kruthlik assignment first, they may still wish to explore. Thank you so much for the input. I'm actually running this module for my new group satarting this Sunday. They're not familiar with Eberron at all, so I'll have to fill them in on what Xoriat is, the Daelkyr, and the ancient Dhakhaani Empire. I think my players are tresure huntery enough to want to check out the rest of the Tomb. I'm adding a little more to it- that the Kruthik are getting wings because of a Prophecy Mark in their nest that will affect all of the Players. I only have 3 players for now, so they'll get a Companion Character to flesh out the party. Most likely a Goblin who'll know the history and can explain it to them if they don't get it. I don't think any of the other players know Goblin as a language, but I'll connect the Ashen Crown, whcih was originally Elven, to my elf PC's history and story. You'll likely have to up some of the DC's in the skill challenges, otherwise a moderately trained PC in Perception will be able to see just about everything, including the ambushes later in the adventure.
#5 pentay Jan 05, 2012 18:27:29	You'll likely have to up some of the DC's in the skill challenges, otherwise a moderately trained PC in Perception will be able to see just about everything, including the ambushes later in the adventure. I highly suggest you read this article by ObsidianCrane. Really great article on how to use Active vs. Passive perception (imho).
#6 nerraDetroK Jan 05, 2012 19:53:17	You'll likely have to up some of the DC's in the skill challenges, otherwise a moderately trained PC in Perception will be able to see just about everything, including the ambushes later in the adventure. I highly suggest you read this article by ObsidianCrane. Really great article on how to use Active vs. Passive perception (imho). That was a great article. I knew that passive Perception means you don't see everything, but this really explains how to use Passive vs Active. Passive lets you see the tracks in the forest, the Active check tells you what kind of animal or person left the tracks, with a high enough check it could tell you how many and how fast they're moving. It's definitely changing how I'll run perception in my game. Still useful to have high perception, but incredibly high number doesn't mean that you're Sherlock Holmes. Thanks for the advice! ps- I still plan on increasing the DC's for the skill challenges and checks- to match the new math on the latest DM Screen. I haven't looked at it in depth, but I only expect 1 or 2 higher.
#7 quizmaster146 Jan 05, 2012 21:51:02	Hmmm, a difference between actively and passively perceiving something. That is a good point. But yeah, I think the DCs in this adventure are ridiculously low. Minimum, I am going to bump them all up by 5, and perhaps even by 10 in some cases. Having a Goblin around to explain the significance of what the party has found sounds like you'll be able to guide the party well. Go with it.
#8 pentay Jan 06, 2012 13:58:20	But yeah, I think the DCs in this adventure are ridiculously low. Minimum, I am going to bump them all up by 5, and perhaps even by 10 in some cases. I don't think that's fair to your PCs. You should consider the level your PCs should be at when they make the check. If the check was easy for a first level, then change it to easy for a first level using the revisied DC by level table (RC 126). Take pg 8 under '7. Chittering Reception'. It lists checks of 8, 10, 8, and 12. These checks should be for a 1st level PC. We look at the DC by level (DMG1 42) and see that an 8 is between easy and moderate, a 10 is moderate, and a 12 is between moderate and hard. Now we look at the revised level and change the 8s to 10s, the 10 to a 12, and the 12 to a 15. Don't penalize your PCs for investing in their skills and/or abilities. Remember... * you can ONLY take 10 when you're not 'in a rush or involved in an encounter or a skill challenge' (RC 127). * passive checks are for 'opposed checks' only (RC 127) If that doesn't work for you, follow the guide on RC 126. A 65% chance success for an easy DC means a d20 roll of 8+, a moderate is a d20 roll of 13+, and a hard is a d20 roll of 17+. Add to this the PC's average modifier and you have your DCs. Example: The PC's average modifier for a skill is +6. That means an easy DC is 14 (6+8), a moderate DC is 19, and a hard DC is 23. This doesn't penalize your PCs (who were smart to invest in their skills/abilities) by adding a straight 5 or 10 to the DCs which can lower the success rate below 65%.
#9 pentay Jan 06, 2012 20:15:14	If that doesn't work for you, follow the guide on RC 126. A 65% chance success for an easy DC means a d20 roll of 8+, a moderate is a d20 roll of 13+, and a hard is a d20 roll of 17+. Add to this the PC's average modifier and you have your DCs. Realized my math is a little suspect. The success rate they're looking for is 65% overall (d20 of 8+). Easy is an untrained, unskilled check; basically a +0 modifier. Medium is a trained or skilled check; basically a +4/5 modifier. Hard is a trained and skilled check; basically a +9 modifier. Now look at your PCs skill. Select the lowest value. Say it's a +2. Now add that modifier and the easy/medium/hard modifier above to get the DC. Thus a minimum of +2 would result in DCs of 10 (8+0+2), 14/15 (8+4/5+2), and 19 (8+9+2). Or use the average. For the +6 example, the DCs would be 14, 18/19, and 23.