Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Cyber-Dave Oct 10, 2008 3:49:22	So, the new barbarian playtest got me thinking about Talenta halflings, which got me thinking about the weapons they use. Has anyone stated out the Sharrash, Tangat, or Boomerang?
#2 Gilo Oct 10, 2008 7:57:13	I'm thinking: Talenta halflings prerequisite proficiency feats Superior Melee weapons Sharrash One-Handed +2 1d8 5g 7lbs Heavy blade Reach,Versatile Tangat One-Handed +3 1d8 10g 5lbs Heavy blade High crit, Versatile Superior Ranged Weapons: Boomerang* One-Handed +3 1d4 6/12 5gp 1lbs Light blade heavy thrown * automatically returns as a free action (like a magical thrown weapon)
#3 Cyber-Dave Oct 10, 2008 10:01:50	I like the stats on the boomerang. Basically, it pretty much has the same stats as a sherukin but does bludgeoning damage. I'm not nearly as happy with the other stats you presented... First of all, should the two weapons really be superior? I realize they were exotic weapons in 3e, but so was the scythe... Even if they are "superior" weapons, I think that they should be stated as "two-handed" weapons with the "small" weapon property. The versatile weapon feature is something that is primarily helpful to medium or larger sized creatures, and I see no reason why the halfling weapons should be most beneficial to characters that are not halflings. Perhaps something like this? Superior Melee weapons Sharrash Two-Handed +2 1d8 5g 7lbs Heavy blade Reach, Small Tangat Two-Handed +3 1d8 10g 5lbs Heavy blade High Crit, Small Even then, I am not so happy with the Tangat. This means that the Tangat is a superior weapons, and is essentially a scimitar with an extra +1 to hit. Considering that these are two handed weapons, and they are designed for Talanta halflings, I think we should assume that these weapons will be "most" popular with Talanta barbarians. I'm happy with the way the Sharrash looks in my above entry, but I'm not happy with a tangat, designed for a barbarian, that pretty much deals the same amount of damage as a scimitar, which a halfling can wield one handed. It does not seem to give a lot of incentive for the halfling barbarian, a striker, to choose the tangat instead of a scimitar. How about this entry instead? Tangat Two-Handed +2 2d4 10g 5lbs Heavy blade High Crit, Small Even then, I see a potential problem. 4e is all about balance. Every option should have a benefit and a downside. The above stat is inferior to a two handed martial melee weapon. The falchion is exactly the same, except that it also has a +3 proficiency bonus instead of a +2 proficiency bonus. Now, if you say, "but the falchion can't be used by a halfling," you are right. Except, the "small" property is already accounted for by the superior weapon proficiency. It doesn't need extra penalties tacked on (in my opinion). As such, I feel the above stat blocks (a similar comparison sticks the sherrash in the same potential problem) are better suited to martial melee weapons. If we go the advanced route, I think something like this would look best. Superior Melee weapons Sharrash One-Handed +2 2d4 5g 6lbs Heavy blade, polearm Reach, Small Tangat One-Handed +3 2d4 10g 5lbs Heavy blade High Crit, Small Basically, the sharrash is a superior version of the glaive, and the tangat is a superior version of the falchion. Both have the exact same stats as the glaive and the flachion, except that the superior proficiency grants them one extra weapon property... small. This makes the weapons very appealing to small sized halflings, but not so appealing to anyone else. If, on the other hand, a martial melee weapons route was taken, I would use the following stats. Martial Melee weapons Sharrash One-Handed +2 1d8 5g 6lbs Heavy blade, polearm Reach, Small Tangat One-Handed +2 2d4 10g 5lbs Heavy blade High Crit, Small Either way, a "Talanta Weapons Training Feat" could be added. If the weapons are stated as superior weapons, the feat would look like this: Talanta Weapons Training Prerequisite: Talanta Halfling Benefit: You gain proficiency with the Tangat, Sharrash, and Boomerang. If the weapons are stated as martial melee weapons, the feat would look like this: Talanta Weapons Training Prerequisite: Talanta Halfling Benefit: You gain proficiency and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with the Tangat, Sharrash, and Boomerang. Thoughts?
#4 Gilo Oct 10, 2008 11:54:02	I forgot about the "small" property that's why I used a one-handed + versatile that was a mistake. I think the superior melee weapons options is better because it limits the proficiency access from other races without the feat. I think that we can keep a low dice damage on the weapons (like 1d8) but use a "brutal 2" property (which emphasis the need to classify this weapons as superior) that way halflings will be able to do more minimum damage which (in my option) balance the fact that they can't do the high dice damage that larger weapons can.
#5 Cyber-Dave Oct 10, 2008 18:09:21	I'm fine with a 1d8 brutal 2 property on the weapons. I'll be honest though, mathematically, that might actually be superior to 2d4. With 2d4 you will have a higher average damage (Mathematically). By this, I don't mean average in terms of min + max divided by two. I mean that you will have a higher percentile chance of rolling slightly higher damage, but closer to the middle of the total potential damage range (2-8). I would have to re-run the numbers (I have done so before when comparing 2d8 to 4d4 for damage dice in relation to d20 Modern gun damage when I was trying to write some house rules for shotgun damage), but I am guessing it would mean that there would be a higher chance of rolling something like 5 or 6. On the other hand, the 1d8 has a much higher chance of rolling min or max damage. With a brutal 2 weapon, a roll of 1 or 2 is rerolled (meaning that there is 0 chance of doing this much damage). However, the 1d8 has a higher chance of rolling a 7 or 8 (from what I remember). I'm not sure, I would have to recheck the math, but a 1d8 brutal 2 weapon is actually probably superior to a 2d4 weapon in terms of potential max damage. Also, the fact that the min damage becomes 2 instead of 8 means that its average damage (min + max damage divided by 2) will be the same, and the percentile chance of rolling average damage on any given roll might actually be comparable.
#6 Gilo Oct 10, 2008 19:52:59	I was thinking more about 1d8 vs. 2d6 or even (in the case of Minotaur with an enlarged Maul) 2d8. since dice-type x dice-number damage is strongly tided to the weapon size I feel that brutal/proficiency bonus is the acceptable way of getting the Halfling barbarian striker a slightly more compatible weapon damage as the larger races. We should consider that the Talenta Halfling will probably have some extra encounter damage done by his domesticated Dinosaur - which is balancing enough
#7 Cyber-Dave Oct 10, 2008 23:16:29	Considering the logical progression of thought I wrote above, why bother using 1d8 brutal 2 instead of 2d4? I mean, its not that I am not ok with 1d8 brutal 2. It pretty much gets the same concept across... but 2d4 seems to do the trick as well, and makes more sense considering what the stat blocks are "superior weapons" of...
#8 Gilo Oct 11, 2008 1:06:26	I was pushing to a 1d8 brutal instead of a 2d4, because 2d4 was already used for medium sized two-handed weapons (like a Greatclub) and since this weapon is smaller in size (as its a small size two-handed weapon and I'm looking at the size chart at PHB p.220) I felt the related damage dice was 1d8. BTW: the brutal 2 means a 3-8 (not a 2-8) damage range (I wasn't sure from the previous post if you calculated the average based on a min=2 or a min=3) and the proficiency bonus also have an effect on the overall encounter damage.
#9 Cyber-Dave Oct 11, 2008 10:31:26	I actually counted it as 2-8, though it doesn't really matter. Either way, the way it will work out, 1d8 brutal 2 is more powerful than a 2d4 weapon... so, it seems to be doing something contrary to what you (seem to be saying you want according to my understanding). Either way, like I said, I'm fine with 1d8 brutal 2. It's within what I consider an acceptable range of damage for the weapon considering its hand and proficiency requirements. I'm just not following your logic as to why it is preferable to 2d4. I mean, with a feat, using the adventurers vault, a halfing can get a two handed 1d10 weapon (which is as much damage as a great sword). I see no reason why having a 2d4 small two handed weapon, which requires a superior weapon proficiency, is problematic.
#10 Gilo Oct 12, 2008 6:01:31	The 1d8/2d4 its more an opinion then math. Just a few ideas off the top of my head to consider: * Having the Sharrash as a Martial Melee weapon and the Tangat as Superior Melee weapon * Halfling racial power/feats in 4e seem to be more oriented to avoiding getting hit (especially by larger enemies) - how about the weapon feat (in case its Martial Melee weapon) will give a defensive bonus instead of an offensive one when using this weapons.
#11 Cyber-Dave Oct 12, 2008 10:25:45	I would not stat the sharash as a martial weapon. Given a small character reach is VERY nifty. That is definitely superior weapon territory.
#12 Gilo Oct 12, 2008 11:05:03	ok, so to summarize, is that the end result (or is the Tangat getting the High Crit too?) ? Superior Melee weapons Sharrash One-Handed +2 2d4 5g 6lbs Heavy blade, polearm Reach, Small Tangat One-Handed +3 1d8 10g 5lbs Heavy blade brutal 2, Small Superior Ranged Weapons: Boomerang* One-Handed +3 1d4 6/12 5gp 1lbs Light blade heavy thrown * automatically returns as a free action (like a magical thrown weapon) While we're on the subject of Talenta halflings - how about the Hunter Mask as a non-magical head slot item that gives +1 to Intimidate? Edit: or maybe a +1 to Death Saving Throw hunt mask
#13 Cyber-Dave Oct 12, 2008 12:52:36	The tangat needs to be high critical too, or its not worth taking as a superior weapon proficiency. A hafling would be better off just using a scimitar (which it can use 1 handed!). Also, the melee weapons need to be stated as two handed, not one handed. So, we are looking at this: Superior Melee weapons Sharrash Two-Handed +2 2d4 5g 6lbs Heavy blade, polearm Reach, Small Tangat Two-Handed +3 1d8 10g 5lbs Heavy blade brutal 2, Small, High Critical Superior Ranged Weapons: Boomerang* One-Handed +3 1d4 6/12 5gp 1lbs Light blade heavy thrown Also, I'm not certain about the 5g/10g bit. That seems really low. The prices should be brought in line with other superior weapons/two handed martial melee weapons. Also, I am not certain that a boomerang should be stated as a light blade. I like the fact that it means that a rogue can sneak attack with it... but does it logically make sense? I mean, its a bludgeoning weapon. Then again, I'm not really certain any other weapon type makes more sense, so I guess light blade works.
#14 darklink69 Dec 16, 2008 16:51:24	What would be a medium size Tangat? Tangat Two-Handed +3 1d8 10g 5lbs Heavy blade brutal 2, High Critical, Versatile or Tangat Two-Handed +3 1d10 10g 5lbs Heavy blade brutal 2, High Critical or simply Tangat Two-Handed +3 1d8 10g 5lbs Heavy blade brutal 2, High Critical
#15 Cyber-Dave Dec 18, 2008 15:20:44	It wouldn't exist, because the weapon is crafted by the halflings for the halflings.