This should concern the attitudes of a Seeker who is educated enough not to blindly follow the next-best preacher, with a modicum of theological grounding, but no knowledge of/allegience to Erandis Vol (as opposed to being loyal to the actual tenets of the Blood). So I am not necessarily looking what the common farmer would think, or the fanatic of the Emerald Claw, but what is viable as a belief.
1) The Silver Flame:
What does such a person think of the actual force known as the Silver Flame (Kalok Shash, or any other name)? Not the Church currently in charge of Flamekeep, with which relations are hostile since the templars have issues with the undead, but the force which keeps the fiends of the first age at bay. The Blood of Vol seems to have a strong drive for protecting their own (although they lack the Community domain in 3.5), and so it would not be in their interest to see the Rajahs return: if the Sovereigns are bad, the Rajahs are probably worse. As I understand it, nobody seems to seriously doubt that there is a force which binds the Rajahs. Doubt centres on the question whether this force actually speaks to people.
But can a Seeker respect the sacrifice of the couatl, who gave up immortality (what the Seekers themselves want) to protect the world? And can a Seeker believe that it is possible to join with the Flame? Or is that simply the Purified deluding themselves - or worse, being deluded by the Shadow in the Flame?
2) The Nine and Six:
As I understand it the Seekers generally believe that either there are no gods, or that these gods have created death and Dollurh to prevent humanity (and associated races - is there a term for this?) from realising their full potential. Reading through the material, I came across two entities who might dissociate themselves from such a plan...
Faiths of Eberron mentions a sect within the Blood of Vol which venerates the Keeper as well as the Divinity within. Unfortunately, it does not say much more beyond the fact that the majority of both Seekers and Vassals regard this as heresy. What exactly do these people believe, though? The Blood of Vol fights death, and does not venerate it. So the common view of the Keeper seems difficult to reconcile with the Blood of Vol. There is however a sect which claims that the Keeper does not steal souls, but keeps them safe for some future emergency. Would I be right to assume that these Seekers instead adopt that idea? Going even further, could it be argued that the Keeper (Kol Turrant, to give him his real name before he was cast out) disagreed with his Sovereign family about creating death and was cast out precisely because of this? Which would make him a hero in the eyes of some Seekers - not enough to venerate him, considering that everyone has the divine spark, but enough to respect him.
It would be interesting to extend this to the Shadow as well: The monstrous races, who see him as their creator, blame the Sovereign Host for inspiring hatred against the "monsters" they regard as dangerously powerful (cf. the Medusa dragonshard). The Shadow is also a God of Ambition, and what greater ambition than to overcome death and ascend to godhood? In that case, there would be a Sovereign Host which seeks to keep mortals from becoming more powerful, set against two of the Dark Six who work in the opposite direction - and incidentally, in the same direction as the Blood.
Also, how would worshippers of the Keeper and the Shadow react? Given the latter's cults in Droaam, it'd be an interesting alliance... if the theological problems can be worked out.
3) Kaius III
Kaius III has turned against the Blood of Vol recently. Open worship in Korth is forbidden, though it's not actively persecuted elsewhere and is still strong in Atur. Keith Baker has mentioned elsewhere (on various answers on his own website) that Kaius is trying to blame the Blood for the calamities which struck Karrnath at the start of the Last War.
Now, the question would be whether this could bring about a schism in the Blood of Vol... rather like the religious change under the Tudors. One part of the Blood of Vol would see this as a betrayal and oppose Kaius III. We know of that group: the Emerald Claw is chief amongst them. But could there be a group which would turn away from the Crimson Covenant and start a church loyal to Karrnath and to Kaius, and would Kaius be accept them as allies against his real enemies in the Blood of Vol? I admit, I like the idea of the Blood of Vol undergoing a reformation-period with ties to politics as happened in Tudor-England, or the Holy Empire in the 16th century, but for this to work, Kaius III would have to work along... or even provoke such a schism. Could this work, and does anyone have any further ideas how to develop this?
Many thanks for reading and answering.
But can a Seeker respect the sacrifice of the couatl, who gave up immortality (what the Seekers themselves want) to protect the world? And can a Seeker believe that it is possible to join with the Flame? Or is that simply the Purified deluding themselves - or worse, being deluded by the Shadow in the Flame?
The Blood of Vol has no fundamental theological conflict with the Silver Flame. The Silver Flame isn't a god and thus isn't responsible for the curse of mortality. The Silver Flame despises the Blood of Vol for wielding dark forces; the Blood of Vol hates the Sovereign Host as the gods are malign forces; and the Sovereign Host doesn't really care about the others.
Looking to the issue of sacrifice, the Seeker would likely equate it to the undead champion, who also sacrifices their chance at immortality in order to protect the innocent (in an ideal world). The difference is that the undead champion is RIGHT HERE PROTECTING THE WORLD, while your soul-added-to-the-flame MAY be protecting the world, or you may just be deluding yourself and it's gone forever. It's a nice idea, but we know our champions are still fighting; you don't.
As for the question of joining with the Flame, I'd say that most don't believe it; they'd call it a myth used to mollify the masses who can't handle the harsh truth. Even if they did believe it, you then run into the fundamental issue that the CotSF sees undead as a malign force in the world and the BoV doesn't. You could try to walk a line between both faiths - seeking to harness the divinity within while also following the tenets of the Flame - but that's going to be a sticking point you'll have to deal with.
As I understand it the Seekers generally believe that either there are no gods, or that these gods have created death and Dollurh to prevent humanity (and associated races - is there a term for this?) from realising their full potential.
I believe the term you're looking for is "mortals". If it's got blood, it has the potential for divinity - even if it's unlikely that an animal would realize it.
(Question about the Keeper sect)
I think your premise is sound; the sect is likely tied to the Restful Watch, believing that the Keeper actually tries to catch noble souls to save them from dissolution. I would argue that this is considered a dangerous heresy by the Seekers because any sort of veneration of the gods is considered foolish - and because even if it's true (and how can you prove that it is), how can you know that the Keeper intends to return these souls? At the end of the day, it's still a god playing games with mortals.
Also, how would worshippers of the Keeper and the Shadow react? Given the latter's cults in Droaam, it'd be an interesting alliance... if the theological problems can be worked out.
I don't think there's one single answer to this, because worship of the Keeper and Shadow isn't as monolithic in its beliefs as the Pyrinean faith of the Sovereign Host... especially when it comes to the Keeper. Monsters which revere the Shadow might be willing to see like-minded humans as allies, while others might assert that they are the Shadow's chosen children and no human is worthy to stand alongside them.
Kaius III has turned against the Blood of Vol recently. Open worship in Korth is forbidden, though it's not actively persecuted elsewhere and is still strong in Atur. Keith Baker has mentioned elsewhere (on various answers on his own website) that Kaius is trying to blame the Blood for the calamities which struck Karrnath at the start of the Last War.
To clarify my statements, I don't think that the Kaius himself believes the Blood is responsible; however, it is a useful scapegoat that helps to focus the frustration of his followers and secure his position. Surely Karrnath would have won the war if they hadn't relied on the Blood of Vol, whose dark magics undoubtedly caused the famines and blight. The current push for peace is necessary while we regroup from the terrible position the Seekers have placed us in and cleanse their influence from places of power. This helps deflect criticism of his choices - especially the pursuit of peace - and weakens the political power of the BoV priests. Furthermore, condemning the faith publically makes it easier to have an alliance with Thrane, which suits his current goal of peace.
But could there be a group which would turn away from the Crimson Covenant and start a church loyal to Karrnath and to Kaius, and would Kaius be accept them as allies against his real enemies in the Blood of Vol?
Sure. It's already been said that Kaius' blood supply comes from Seekers who are personally loyal to Kaius. As for Kaius' "real enemies in the Blood of Vol", well, his real enemies are in the Emerald Claw, which is more a duped tool of Erandis than a true arm of the Blood faith. He's intentionally weakened the political power of the fiath to prevent it from turning on him, but it wasn't really his enemy to begin with; it's an act of political expediency as opposed to necessity.
The main thing is that if he embraced the faith publically he'd risk serious retaliation from Thrane and Aerenal, and then there's the question of where other nations would fall. And it would present an opportunity for a rival warlord - like Drago Thul of the Swords of Karrn - to unite the Karrn vassals against him.
So it would be a very interesting scenario, but a dangerous move.
The Blood of Vol has no fundamental theological conflict with the Silver Flame. The Silver Flame isn't a god and thus isn't responsible for the curse of mortality. The Silver Flame despises the Blood of Vol for wielding dark forces; the Blood of Vol hates the Sovereign Host as the gods are malign forces; and the Sovereign Host doesn't really care about the others.
The theology is the intriguing part at the moment - and in particular, as a contrast to what the religion's followers chose to do after interpreting the tenets of faith. Thankfully, no gods can pop down from the high heavens in Eberron to put people right and solve theological disputes.
Some follow up questions, though: does the Silver Flame (again as opposed to the Church of the Silver Flame) have any particular opinion of the Blood of Vol? In other words, what would other cults of the Flame (the Orcs of the Labyrinth, various Serpent Cults) think? That is assuming that the Silver Flame as an entity is capable of thought (without Tira Miron and the Keeper of the Flame as intermediaries and interprets who may quite well be duped themselves or posing as something they are not).
Also, why doesn't the SH care about the BoV? After all, the BoV constitutes a direct attack against their gods. Historically, some cultures believed that the gods could become angry with the entire community if an unbeliever or blasphemer was allowed to live there, even amongst generally tolerant cultures using the synchretism the SH is so fond of. Do they simply not take the BoV serious as a threat - after all, nobody can really threaten a god as the Vassals see them - or are they not organised enough to have a united front? Do they believe that Aureon is just enough, and Boldrei kind enough, not to punish an entire community for the blasphemy of one of its members?
Somewhat linked to this: how old is the idea that the Sovereigns created Dollurh? Was this already part of the elven faith before the exile of the line and retainers of Vol, or did it only come up when they came into contact with humans on Khorvaire? The giants, so far as I remember, worshipped a variant of the Sovereign Host, as did the Qabalrin, so the elves would probably have known about them, if under slightly different names. But a long time passed between the elven flight to Aerenal and the development of the positive and negative responses to the problem of death, and finally the diaspora of the followers of Vol. The fugitives would encounter a strong Pyrine faith on Khorvaire, but would they already have the idea that the gods are evil, or was it only this cultural interchange which resulted in that tenet? If they had that idea to begin with, does the Undying Court also believe the gods created Dolurh to prevent people from ascending - combined with the possibility that the Sovereigns are ascended dragons, and that the dragons levied war against the elves when they began to exceed their life span, this would actually lend credence to these claims!
Looking to the issue of sacrifice, the Seeker would likely equate it to the undead champion, who also sacrifices their chance at immortality in order to protect the innocent (in an ideal world). The difference is that the undead champion is RIGHT HERE PROTECTING THE WORLD, while your soul-added-to-the-flame MAY be protecting the world, or you may just be deluding yourself and it's gone forever. It's a nice idea, but we know our champions are still fighting; you don't.
I like the idea of preferring what you can see over doubtful possibilities. And the reverence of martyrs is a also very interesting point of the BoV - undead, but also those who died for their community without becoming undead. I'm not sure which the Seekers would regard as the worse fate: fading away in Dollurh until nothing is left, or spending eternity knowing that you have lost true divinity. Do the Seekers have monuments to these people, considering that they don't believe they are still somehow around to intercede for them (or that there is anything that would listen to intercession), nor that heroisation can somehow make a mortal part-divine (Greek Hero-Cults), nor even that you are not really dead as long as you are remembered (a rather vague Greco-Roman concept).
What interests me, though, is whether the Blood of Vol is tolerant enough to accept as martyrs people who were not actually Seekers, but still died for their community - the idea of the "virtuous pagans" in the Middle Ages, for instance. Faiths of Eberron claims that they occasionally mark the births and deaths of people outside the faith, but also that these are the dictates of Erandis and the Crimson Covenant, with people usually puzzled but playing along.
As for the question of joining with the Flame, I'd say that most don't believe it; they'd call it a myth used to mollify the masses who can't handle the harsh truth. Even if they did believe it, you then run into the fundamental issue that the CotSF sees undead as a malign force in the world and the BoV doesn't. You could try to walk a line between both faiths - seeking to harness the divinity within while also following the tenets of the Flame - but that's going to be a sticking point you'll have to deal with.
I was mostly thinking about a "live and let live" philosophy rather than an attempt to combine both religions. Naturally, such tolerance would only be theological (and restricted to a few Seekers): the Church constitues a threat to the BoV and needs to be defended against. And, as Rekkenmark teaches, offense may be the best defense at times.
I like the approach of the Seekers thinking that it's a nice myth, but a myth nevertheless... and one which causes those zealots with their silver arrowheads to get so lost in it they actually undo their real salvation by working against the Blood. There's a sadness about this that's rather appealing.
I believe the term you're looking for is "mortals". If it's got blood, it has the potential for divinity - even if it's unlikely that an animal would realize it.
I was trying mortals, but didn't use it... after all, mortals would not be mortal at all if the Gods had not invented death.
To clarify my statements, I don't think that the Kaius himself believes the Blood is responsible; however, it is a useful scapegoat that helps to focus the frustration of his followers and secure his position. Surely Karrnath would have won the war if they hadn't relied on the Blood of Vol, whose dark magics undoubtedly caused the famines and blight. The current push for peace is necessary while we regroup from the terrible position the Seekers have placed us in and cleanse their influence from places of power. This helps deflect criticism of his choices - especially the pursuit of peace - and weakens the political power of the BoV priests. Furthermore, condemning the faith publically makes it easier to have an alliance with Thrane, which suits his current goal of peace.
It's interesting that the Blood of Vol might be responsible, though - the first plagues were what led Kaius I to seek the help of Vol in the first place, after all. I would not hold him if he wondered whether it was all planned from the start. The later plagues and famines are a different matter.
Sure. It's already been said that Kaius' blood supply comes from Seekers who are personally loyal to Kaius. As for Kaius' "real enemies in the Blood of Vol", well, his real enemies are in the Emerald Claw, which is more a duped tool of Erandis than a true arm of the Blood faith. He's intentionally weakened the political power of the fiath to prevent it from turning on him, but it wasn't really his enemy to begin with; it's an act of political expediency as opposed to necessity.
Kaius' harem knows the truth though. Kaius can hardly reveal himself even to a loyal schismatic Blood-of-Karrnath denomination and usurp Erandis Vol. Given that the vast majority of the Seekers don't know that Erandis is still around, and that their messianic Queen of the Death is currently holding court on Farlnen. Nor can he say: "Hey, I'm an undead champion too! I am the promised King of the Dead.", not even to people he trusts, and Kaius doesn't strike me as someone who trusts easily. He has been betrayed too much. Especially since amongst the schismatic church there might even be abactors who know about Erandis Vol and chose to turn against her not because they know/believe she cares little about the faith, but for purely political reasons.
I'm also not sure whether the Blood of Vol would really be expert in plagues and famines. There is certainly a necromantic connection, but not one I find easy to fit thematically into a religion which actually venerates life, regards nothing worse than death, and is ultimately lawful. Plagues and famines destroy whole communities and almost inevitably get out of control. They kill indiscriminately. As such, they would seem to be especially abhorrent to Seekers who, as far I understand from FoE, keep candles to commemorate the lives of non-Seekers as well. That's why I would see plagues and famines associated with the Children of Winter, who in turn would not use undead. That's my opinion on the rank-and-file Seeker, though: with "real enemies" I meant Erandis Vol and the Crimson Convenant, the hidden leadership of the BoV. They who pursue their own agendas rather than the tenets of the faith, and would not baulk at unleashing a plague against which they themselves are immune on account of being largely undead. They don't seem to care much more about the lives of their followers than do the gods they claim to despise. Erandis is surely an enemy. She is responsible for his condition, for the death of his wife, the creation of the Emerald Claw, and she has tried to wrest the crown of Karrnath from Kaius, by making him her slave. The Crimson Covenant seems to share all those plans. I am not really sure about the role of Malevanor, though, since he seems to have started out as loyal Karrnathi (in EoE: Fort Bones).
The main thing is that if he embraced the faith publically he'd risk serious retaliation from Thrane and Aerenal, and then there's the question of where other nations would fall. And it would present an opportunity for a rival warlord - like Drago Thul of the Swords of Karrn - to unite the Karrn vassals against him.
Didn't Kaius' "grandfather" embrace the faith? What were the reactions at that point? Thrane was already heavily influenced by the CotSF, even if they had not made it into the government yet, but both nations were allied for some time after Karrnath started using undead. Admittedly, that information is from Forge of War, which is hardly my favourite when it comes to Eberron's history, and I'd largely prefer to ignore it beyond a few ideas (Third Battle of the Talenta Plains, Karrnathi dread marshal).
Also, did some of his warlords openly oppose the new faith, adding sedition and religious wars to the famines and plagues which kept the Karrnathi phalanxes from simply steamrolling their enemies? It would be an interesting idea for a character's backstory, especially one of noble background: feuds between rival lines based on the reversals of the BoV could make for great enemies and foes.
This actually ties in with the way I treat the Order of the Onyx Skull in my campaign. As it is unclear whether they were dissolved along with the Emerald Claw (elswhere you suggested that both were dissolved, but that the OS chose to go quietly). I made them a rival of the EC. Essentially, the EC replaced the much older Onyx Skull as the favoured Seeker Order because it was ready to do things their chivalrous code prevented the OS from doing, leading to enormous resentment between members of the two orders and constant competition (trying to outdo each other on the battlefield, chosing them purposefully as foes during tournaments, and generally vying for influence, resources, missions, etc). As a result, the OS was used to capture the EC members when the latter order was outlawed, as the OS' resentment could be channelled, their knowledge of undead could be used, and a large part of the ire of those supporting the EC could be pushed onto the OS. After Thronehold, the OS would be relegated to the same fate as Vedim ir'Omik... cut off from royal funding, no longer desirable to parade in public outside of Atur and Fort Bones, but kept in reserve - and busy with defending themselves against EC reprisals.
Thanks again for your answers and for taking the time to read!
Some follow up questions, though: does the Silver Flame (again as opposed to the Church of the Silver Flame) have any particular opinion of the Blood of Vol?
The Voice whispers in our conscience (and it is the Voice you reach with commune), but a Voice is a particular spirit charged with overseeing a particular group of faithful; so for example, the Ghaash’kala should have an Orc Voice of their own. As for the Flame itself, if it speaks directly, it speaks to the Voices; but bear in mind that the Flame isn’t a single anthropomorphic entity. Rather, it is hundreds of thousands of souls of different species and cultures. They are bound together by certain shared beliefs (defend the innocent) but it’s not one single entity. The Flame exists more as a resource than as a leader; it is the well of strength you can call on to defend those in need.
With that said, the basic principle of the Flame on the matter is the same as that of the Undying Court: Negative necromancy is a blight that eats away at the lifeforce of the world itself. It’s not a matter of having any opinion on the Blood of Vol; if they stopped animating the dead, they could believe whatever they want. But their practice of necromancy cannot be condoned. It’s a supernatural threat to the innocent, and stopping such things is the purpose of the Flame.
Also, why doesn't the SH care about the BoV? After all, the BoV constitutes a direct attack against their gods. Historically, some cultures believed that the gods could become angry with the entire community if an unbeliever or blasphemer was allowed to live there…
You’ve hit on the main point later in your comments. The short form:
The common Pyrinean interpretation of the SH holds a number of things. The Sovereigns are omnipresent. Arawai is the summer breeze. Boldrei is there in the welcoming hearth. Onatar is there whenever a smith raises a hammer or a seamstress sits at her loom, and Dol Dorn and Dol Arrah are present every time swords are drawn. First of all, you can’t fight the gods any more than you can fight the wind or the idea of war. The whole concept is ludicrious and delusional… why should I get upset about the ravings of a madman? Second, your refusal to believe in the truth doesn’t change the truth or anger the Sovereigns. Dol Dorn is with you when you draw your sword, whether or not you believe in him. If you DO believe in him and offer a prayer, he may smile on you and strengthen your arm. If you don’t, he’s there anyway. This is the basis of their syncretic belief. In their opinion, it doesn’t matter what gods you THINK you worship; any power or benefit you receive comes from the mercy of the Sovereigns. This ties to the fact that in Eberron, a priest can in theory worship his shoe and get spells. Someone might say that this proves that there are no gods. A vassal will say “Don’t be ridiculous. Clearly his power comes from the Traveler who is using him as an instrument of chaos… or from Kol Korran, who is willing to hear the intent of his prayers even though he is using the wrong name.” Their belief is that the Sovereigns hear ALL prayers, but they look more favorably on those that take the proper form. If you choose to worship using the wrong names, you’re limiting the efficiency of your prayers, but ultimately you’re the one who suffers from that. On that note, most of the SH believes that the Silver Flame is just Dol Arrah—after all, Tira Miron was a paladin of Dol Arrah—and that the couatls are divine servants of the Sovereigns, and all the rest of it is simply unnecessary delusional window dressing. Their hearts are in the right place, but damn if they aren’t wasting a lot of time and effort. Personally, I expect priests and paladins of Dol Arrah to be slightly condescending to their counterparts in the Flame… “You do good work, kid. Now when are you going to drop the baby priestess and big fire and grow up?”
This ties to the idea that the SH generally doesn’t look at the Sovereigns as being vengeful or cruel. If there’s a storm, it’s not because Arawai is angry with you; it’s the work of the Devourer. If you sacrifice to Arawai, she make intercede and calm the storm. But it’s not in her nature to destroy. The Dark Six are the destructive forces; the Sovereigns are constructive.
So would vassals band together to oppose the BoV if it posed a threat? Certainly. But on its own, its beliefs don’t pose a threat; they are simply delusional.
With that said, one of the things about the SH is that it supports any number of variant sects, as shown by the Restful Watch. If you want to create an order of inquisitors that seeks to bring Aureon’s law and the fire of Dol Arrah to the unclean Seekers, go right ahead! I’d be surprised if such a thing wasn’t out there somewhere.
Somewhat linked to this: how old is the idea that the Sovereigns created Dolurrh? Was this already part of the elven faith before the exile of the line and retainers of Vol, or did it only come up when they came into contact with humans on Khorvaire?
Important theological point: No one believes the Sovereigns created Dolurrh. The Progenitors created the fundamental framework of reality, and invested the Sovereigns to watch over it. The BoV doesn’t say that the Sovereigns created Dolurrh; they say that the Sovereigns created the curse of mortality, condemning mortal souls to Dolurrh.
Cutting to the main point: The line of Vol didn’t believe in the Divinity Within and had no interest in a war against the divine. They simply believed that death resulted in the eradication of the soul and that they couldn’t allow this to happen to their greatest minds; undeath was a suitable alternative. It’s much the same basic idea as the Undying Court, simply with a different approach to how to preserve the heroes. This philosophy still exists largely intact in the Bloodsail Principality of the Lhazaar Principalities, as described in Dragon 410. It was the interaction between the exiled allies of Vol and the Pyrinean faith of the humans of Khorvaire that created the modern Blood of Vol. This is one reason Erandis herself isn’t particularly faithful to the Blood of Vol; it’s not her religion.
The giants, so far as I remember, worshipped a variant of the Sovereign Host, as did the Qabalrin, so the elves would probably have known about them, if under slightly different names.
I don’t think that the Qabalrin should be said to have “worshipped the Sovereign Host”. We’ve said that they dealt with the Shadow, but that’s not meant to imply a belief in the larger Host; it’s simply how a follower of the SH would interpret things. Their priests communed with the True Darkness; a Pyrinean comes along, looks at their texts, and says “Oh, they’re worshipping the Shadow.”
The key point: All the elven cultures share the belief that death is the end: that souls lost to Dolurrh are eradicated. This is the quest that caused the Aereni to create the Undying Court and Well of Memories, the Tairnadal to embody their ancestors, and the line of Vol to embrace negative necromancy. But they didn’t blame the Sovereigns for this; they simply accepted it as the way the universe works, and sought a way around it.
And the reverence of martyrs is a also very interesting point of the BoV - undead, but also those who died for their community without becoming undead.
Absolutely.
Do the Seekers have monuments to these people, considering that they don't believe they are still somehow around to intercede for them (or that there is anything that would listen to intercession), nor that heroisation can somehow make a mortal part-divine (Greek Hero-Cults), nor even that you are not really dead as long as you are remembered (a rather vague Greco-Roman concept).
The general BoV belief is that memory is the best monument. With that said, having your skeleton reanimated to protect and serve your community after your death is a monument in its own way. I’ll also note that “you aren’t really dead as long as you are remembered” is the fundamental precept of the Tairnadal faith.
What interests me, though, is whether the Blood of Vol is tolerant enough to accept as martyrs people who were not actually Seekers, but still died for their community - the idea of the "virtuous pagans" in the Middle Ages, for instance.
It seems reasonable to me. Just because Karrn the Conqueror wasn’t a Seeker doesn’t lessen his contributions to his people, or make his loss any less of a tragedy.
I like the approach of the Seekers thinking that it's a nice myth, but a myth nevertheless... and one which causes those zealots with their silver arrowheads to get so lost in it they actually undo their real salvation by working against the Blood. There's a sadness about this that's rather appealing.
Which is generally how I see the Blood. They view the world with a sort of stoic pity. “You cling to your gods because you’re not strong enough to accept that we are alone, and to move on from there.”
I was trying mortals, but didn't use it... after all, mortals would not be mortal at all if the Gods had not invented death.
Indeed. I’m just saying it’s not that humans are some special chosen race. As mortals, we’re all in the same boat.
I'm also not sure whether the Blood of Vol would really be expert in plagues and famines.
Bear in mind that the Silver Flame’s argument isn’t that the BoV intentionally caused these things, but rather that they are a side effect of the large-scale practice of necromancy: the undead drain the life from the world around them to continue their existence, even when they don’t directly drink blood.
Didn't Kaius' "grandfather" embrace the faith? What were the reactions at that point?
First off, I’ll echo your point that I don’t rely on facts presented in The Forge of War. In my opinion, this should have created considerable enmity between Thrane and Karrnath, fueling future conflicts. With that said, when I was talking about the fallout if Kaius embraced the faith today, I meant if the nation publically had a vampire king on the throne, not simply following the religion.
I will say that when Kaius I accepted the faith, I think it was far less well known across the Five Nations as a whole; people didn’t really know what it was or what it was capable of. And let’s face it, Thrane caused an uproar of its own when it became a theocracy. The Thrane abhorrence of the Blood was something that grew over time as the public learned what this religion really was.
Also, did some of his warlords openly oppose the new faith, adding sedition and religious wars to the famines and plagues which kept the Karrnathi phalanxes from simply steamrolling their enemies?
Absolutely. Many hold that it was that decision that cost Karrnath the war, and it is their descendants that Kaius is placating by turning on the faith today. The SH was originally the dominant faith of the nation, with an emphasis on the Three Faces of War, and it’s not like everyone immediately threw this faith aside and embraced the Blood of Vol. Of course, some did, and this increased the power of the Blood… influence that Kaius is now trying to eliminate.
This actually ties in with the way I treat the Order of the Onyx Skull in my campaign.
In my campaign, I use the Onyx Skull as a force that holds to the core beliefs of the BoV, as opposed to being misled by Erandis; as such, I too often place the Onyx Skull in opposition to the Emerald Claw. With that said, I don’t use the Onyx Skull as an organized force; rather, its former members are scattered across Karrnath and the Five Kingdoms. The Old Bones of Droaam are former members of the Onyx Skull.
3) Kaius III
Kaius III has turned against the Blood of Vol recently. Open worship in Korth is forbidden, though it's not actively persecuted elsewhere and is still strong in Atur. Keith Baker has mentioned elsewhere (on various answers on his own website) that Kaius is trying to blame the Blood for the calamities which struck Karrnath at the start of the Last War.
Now, the question would be whether this could bring about a schism in the Blood of Vol... rather like the religious change under the Tudors. One part of the Blood of Vol would see this as a betrayal and oppose Kaius III. We know of that group: the Emerald Claw is chief amongst them. But could there be a group which would turn away from the Crimson Covenant and start a church loyal to Karrnath and to Kaius, and would Kaius be accept them as allies against his real enemies in the Blood of Vol? I admit, I like the idea of the Blood of Vol undergoing a reformation-period with ties to politics as happened in Tudor-England, or the Holy Empire in the 16th century, but for this to work, Kaius III would have to work along... or even provoke such a schism. Could this work, and does anyone have any further ideas how to develop this?
Many thanks for reading and answering.
My wife is playing an exiled Knight of The Onyx Skull, and her goal is basically to bring the Onyx Skull back to Karnathi prominence on this very premise. I'm thinking about making her into a (probably reluctant) prophet of sorts, perhaps even starting a branched off faith or something, depending on her inclinations.
Also, apperently Mr. Baker and I use the Onyx Skull in about the same way. My wife's Vrylocka Blackguard is trying to bring them back together into a true Knighthood again, though. Basically, I'm thinking that if she succeeds, it will lead to a new church which is, somewhat ironically I guess, free from Erandis's influence.
Again, many thanks for the replies and the enticing discussion!
The Voice whispers in our conscience (and it is the Voice you reach with commune), but a Voice is a particular spirit charged with overseeing a particular group of faithful; so for example, the Ghaash’kala should have an Orc Voice of their own. As for the Flame itself, if it speaks directly, it speaks to the Voices; but bear in mind that the Flame isn’t a single anthropomorphic entity. Rather, it is hundreds of thousands of souls of different species and cultures. They are bound together by certain shared beliefs (defend the innocent) but it’s not one single entity. The Flame exists more as a resource than as a leader; it is the well of strength you can call on to defend those in need.
The various versions of the Flame are another interesting topic. So far, I’ve also been toying with creating a group in Xen’drik which (justly or mistakenly) believes they have to offer living sacrifices to the Flame to give it the strength to keep up the wards around a particular rajah, essentially trying to follow the end-justifies-the-means line which is far from unknown in Eberron. It’d be interesting to see the heroic PCs stop the sacrifices, just to realise that the Serpent Cult was right (on the local scale of a single rajah, which should be terrifying enough).
The common Pyrinean interpretation of the SH holds a number of things. The Sovereigns are omnipresent. [...] This ties to the idea that the SH generally doesn’t look at the Sovereigns as being vengeful or cruel. If there’s a storm, it’s not because Arawai is angry with you; it’s the work of the Devourer. If you sacrifice to Arawai, she make intercede and calm the storm. But it’s not in her nature to destroy. The Dark Six are the destructive forces; the Sovereigns are constructive.
Ok, thanks. I see I was working too much with the Greek model where the gods are far from perfect in their motivations, and not above destroying and punishing entire communities because someone forgot their place and said something arrogant – like in the myths around Niobe and Andromeda, or the first book of the Iliad, or with the judeo-christian Great Flood and Plagues of Egypt. I take it then that Arawai is, at the worst, going to withold her help, though together with the tenet that the Sovereigns are the world, that would mean that nothing grows at all.
Important theological point: No one believes the Sovereigns created Dolurrh. The Progenitors created the fundamental framework of reality, and invested the Sovereigns to watch over it. The BoV doesn’t say that the Sovereigns created Dolurrh; they say that the Sovereigns created the curse of mortality, condemning mortal souls to Dolurrh.
Ah! I got that wrong, then. Thanks for the clarification!
Cutting to the main point: The line of Vol didn’t believe in the Divinity Within and had no interest in a war against the divine. They simply believed that death resulted in the eradication of the soul and that they couldn’t allow this to happen to their greatest minds; undeath was a suitable alternative. It’s much the same basic idea as the Undying Court, simply with a different approach to how to preserve the heroes. This philosophy still exists largely intact in the Bloodsail Principality of the Lhazaar Principalities, as described in Dragon 410. It was the interaction between the exiled allies of Vol and the Pyrinean faith of the humans of Khorvaire that created the modern Blood of Vol. This is one reason Erandis herself isn’t particularly faithful to the Blood of Vol; it’s not her religion.
That helps a lot understanding about Erandis and why she abuses her power.
It is also interesting to read that it was indeed the contact between human colonists and elf fugitives which gave rise to the malicious-gods theory and the idea that the divinity resides within the blood. Somehow, I get images of converted human and of first-generation khoravar ordering the statues of the old gods to be pulled down, a bit like what happened on our world in the germanic and slavic regions when their lords adopted Christianity and began to see the old pagan deities and demons. There might even be interesting adventure locales where such statues still stick out from the ground or were washed up on the shores of a river.
I don’t think that the Qabalrin should be said to have “worshipped the Sovereign Host”. We’ve said that they dealt with the Shadow, but that’s not meant to imply a belief in the larger Host; it’s simply how a follower of the SH would interpret things. Their priests communed with the True Darkness; a Pyrinean comes along, looks at their texts, and says “Oh, they’re worshipping the Shadow.”
Ok, that makes sense.
The general BoV belief is that memory is the best monument. With that said, having your skeleton reanimated to protect and serve your community after your death is a monument in its own way. I’ll also note that “you aren’t really dead as long as you are remembered” is the fundamental precept of the Tairnadal faith.
So you might find skeletons doing work in the more remote Seeker communities? Not Karrnathi intelligent ones, who find non-military work abhorrent, and might at best built a camp or trenches, but the run-of-the-mill variety. Or is that illegal now that Kaius has promised not to continue undead production (and considering he seems to keep his promise in public, whatever his ministers are up to behind the scenes).
I'm also not sure whether the Blood of Vol would really be expert in plagues and famines.Bear in mind that the Silver Flame’s argument isn’t that the BoV intentionally caused these things, but rather that they are a side effect of the large-scale practice of necromancy: the undead drain the life from the world around them to continue their existence, even when they don’t directly drink blood.
Good point, as always.
So it would be safe to assume that those who follow the true tenets would not intentionally spread disease and blight, perhaps even being far more respectful of the sanctity of life than Vassals or Purified (who can rely on the old crusader adage “Kill them all; God will reckognise his faithful”).
Surprisingly enough, I could actually see some Seekers taking this to the extreme conclusion (extreme for a pre-modern world) and embracing pacifism, vegetarianism, and other expressions of the sanctity-of-life ideal. At the same time, they would probably ensure that there are safety measures around necromantic laboratories, or else call the arguments of the SF and the UC mere superstition. Others, of course, would argue that ‘sanctity of life’ only concerns those who deserve it (the Old Bones you mentioned don’t seem to be too concerned with the idea), and some might claim that life is short, so live it, and if anyone gets in the way, remove them (the Cult of Life seems to be good at this).
Though all this makes me wonder about some of the undead. Zombies and skeletons as unskilled workers seem to have existed before the Last War; as intelligent (if unlearning) creatures, since the Oldakyr rites. Vampires are supported by the blood sacraments of the faithful. Like them, liches are intelligent, but don’t ostensibly require any sustenance. Mummies are traditional tomb guardians, and Malevanor runs the main temple.
The creature that baffles me, though, are ghouls. They are generally presented as filthy, stinking, ravenous creatures who think about little else than devouring whatever comes within reach. They are usually presented as pretty stupid, despite, in 3.5 at least, a somewhat higher intelligence than the average human. They also spread disease, though a mummy does that too. How are these creatures integrated in Eberron and the BoV? I could imagine that the Ghouls can be fed by the community just as vampires can. It doesn’t say anywhere that they need to feed on sentient creatures, but may be equally happy with whatever bits of cow most living creatures wouldn’t touch outside of a famine situation. I do wonder, though, whether there are some kinds of undead that are beyond the pale even for the BoV (talking about those who follow the tenets, of course, not those who care more about means to power than protecting the community).
The other creature that has me stumped a bit are ghosts. Most ghosts can be put to rest if their unfulfilled mission is completed, or if they are avenged, properly buried, and so on. But since that “rest” is actually the worst thing that could happen from the point of view of the Seekers, they would be bound to prevent this. Which in turn traps the ghost in a nightmarish situation. So, unless the ghost’s mission is one that cannot be completed (protecting a community or family without a time limit, defeating death itself, etc), that seems a bit of a dilemma.
First off, I’ll echo your point that I don’t rely on facts presented in The Forge of War. In my opinion, this should have created considerable enmity between Thrane and Karrnath, fueling future conflicts. With that said, when I was talking about the fallout if Kaius embraced the faith today, I meant if the nation publically had a vampire king on the throne, not simply following the religion.
Got you. That would indeed be bad; as well as legally tricky considering the status of non-persons in the legal sense where the Code of Galifar is concerned. Not sure about the Code of Kaius, which might grant rights to the undead, but which might also have revoked them when the BoV was cut off from power. It would be interesting if some of the warlords were actually avowed undead, although that might take away from the mystery behind Kaius and play havoc with the inheritance laws. But the revelation of Kaius’ true nature would also invalidate Kaius’ signature on the Thronehold Treaty, or at least give other nations an opportunity to argue that way, and dissolve the oaths of fealty sworn to him by his vassals, who could rebel without committing treason as far as the law is concerned. Sivis would have a field trip figuring the resulting legal mess out.
My wife is playing an exiled Knight of The Onyx Skull, and her goal is basically to bring the Onyx Skull back to Karnathi prominence on this very premise. I'm thinking about making her into a (probably reluctant) prophet of sorts, perhaps even starting a branched off faith or something, depending on her inclinations.
Also, apperently Mr. Baker and I use the Onyx Skull in about the same way. My wife's Vrylocka Blackguard is trying to bring them back together into a true Knighthood again, though. Basically, I'm thinking that if she succeeds, it will lead to a new church which is, somewhat ironically I guess, free from Erandis's influence.
That’s an interesting character hook. As I already mentioned, I love the idea of a schism in the Church leading to a faction which believes in a messianic Queen of the Dead and one which claims that any such creature would just be the same as any of the other gods. I am still myself plotting the reactions of the Crimson Covenant about losing a potentially large, and certainly powerful and well-trained organisation (in your and Mr. Baker’s version, should they be reformed). And there are other interested parties… Thuranni, Cannith East, and at least one prominent member of Deneith have ties to the BoV, but which section would they chose ? Probably whichever offered them most power…
I was working too much with the Greek model where the gods are far from perfect in their motivations, and not above destroying and punishing entire communities because someone forgot their place and said something arrogant...
Per the Pyrinean Sovereign Host (PSH), that's what the Dark Six are for... to take the blame when things go wrong. Aureon is never petty; but if you don't have his favor, you may fall prey to the malevolence of the Shadow or the wiles of the Traveler. When things go wrong in war, surely the Mockery got the best of you. It's the Devourer who shattered your city with an earthquake or wildfire. If the Sovereigns don't protect us or favor us, perhaps we haven't shown sufficient piety. But generally, the worst the Sovereign will do is to turn his face away and leave you to the mercy of the Dark Six; he won't inflict direct harm himself.
Somehow, I get images of converted human and of first-generation khoravar ordering the statues of the old gods to be pulled down, a bit like what happened on our world in the germanic and slavic regions when their lords adopted Christianity and began to see the old pagan deities and demons.
It is an interesting concept. Continuing the original discussion, the exiled elves fled north along the eastern coast of Khorvaire and settled in the Lhazaar Principalities. The Bloodsails is the heart of this and still largely holds to their old traditions. The Blood of Vol rippled out from there, which is why it's concentrated in the Principalities and Karrnath; it never took root in Thrane or Cyre. So again, when Kaius I first elevated the faith, it was largely unknown to people in Breland or Aundair; it's because of Kaius' actions that people across the Five Nations are now familiar with it.
So you might find skeletons doing work in the more remote Seeker communities?
Absolutely. What used to be the main purpose of nonsentient undead before the war; zombies would be used for simple manual labor. Once the blood stops flowing, the body is just dead weight, and a Seeker would WANT it to be used for the good of the community. Now, this is a practice that isn't so common since Kaius turned on the faith, but in a remote Seeker community, you'd likely still see it.
So it would be safe to assume that those who follow the true tenets would not intentionally spread disease and blight, perhaps even being far more respectful of the sanctity of life than Vassals or Purified...
Absolutely. After all, per the common faith of the Seekers, the war against death is being fought to help all mortals (though some are solely concerned with their own ascension and don't care about others). Every death diminishes us. Among other things, I see BoV priests as being far more likely to raise the dead that SF or PSH priests. Per the SF, the noble soul is strengthening the Flame. Per PSH, the soul will pass through Dolurrh to the higher realm of the Sovereigns. In either case, why would we take it away from that destiny without some dire need? While the BoV know you've only got a month or so before the soul is lost forever - if you have the power to pull it back to safety, DO IT!
The creature that baffles me, though, are ghouls... How are these creatures integrated in Eberron and the BoV?
Filthy disease spreading ghouls aren't integrated into the BoV. Again, the goal of the BoV isn't to become undead. They don't see all undead as holy beings. Undeath is a way to escape death, and someone who becomes undead has the opportunity to continue to serve the living. That doesn't mean that they think all undead WILL, or that any undead creature has a beneficial role to play. Ghouls may indeed be irredeemable monsters that just happen to be undead. Similarly, if you have a contagious zombie outbreak a la 28 Days, Seekers would seek to protect their communities from it. It's mainly that the BoV doesn't accept the SF/Undying Court assertion that negative undeath is inherently a malignant force. They believe that the farm can benefit from having zombie workers, while the SF asserts that the presence of the zombies inherently eats away at the lifeforce of the world. As a side note, it's not that the SF can't imagine that an undead creature could be a good individual; they simply believe that regardless of the intent of the undead entity, its very existence harms the living.
Per the Pyrinean Sovereign Host (PSH), that's what the Dark Six are for... to take the blame when things go wrong. Aureon is never petty; but if you don't have his favor, you may fall prey to the malevolence of the Shadow or the wiles of the Traveler. When things go wrong in war, surely the Mockery got the best of you. It's the Devourer who shattered your city with an earthquake or wildfire. If the Sovereigns don't protect us or favor us, perhaps we haven't shown sufficient piety. But generally, the worst the Sovereign will do is to turn his face away and leave you to the mercy of the Dark Six; he won't inflict direct harm himself.
Thanks for clarifying!
It is an interesting concept. Continuing the original discussion, the exiled elves fled north along the eastern coast of Khorvaire and settled in the Lhazaar Principalities. The Bloodsails is the heart of this and still largely holds to their old traditions. The Blood of Vol rippled out from there, which is why it's concentrated in the Principalities and Karrnath; it never took root in Thrane or Cyre. So again, when Kaius I first elevated the faith, it was largely unknown to people in Breland or Aundair; it's because of Kaius' actions that people across the Five Nations are now familiar with it.
That makes sense. I suppose there would also have been a lot of resistence against the spread new faith in the early days of the elven exodus, once the PSH got wind of the new interpretations of the Sovereigns, but those were chaotic days anyway, from what we know about them. It's also ironic to know that Kaius I may be considered a 'saint' of the BoV, whilst they curse his apparent grandson in the same breath.
Absolutely. What used to be the main purpose of nonsentient undead before the war; zombies would be used for simple manual labor. Once the blood stops flowing, the body is just dead weight, and a Seeker would WANT it to be used for the good of the community. Now, this is a practice that isn't so common since Kaius turned on the faith, but in a remote Seeker community, you'd likely still see it. [...] After all, per the common faith of the Seekers, the war against death is being fought to help all mortals (though some are solely concerned with their own ascension and don't care about others).
So it's a kind of organ-donor system, except you donate the entire body (in addition to the organs, although I don't see transplants being known by Khorvaire healers). It certainly makes for interesting looks on the faces of righteous outsiders when the Last Will and Testament of some villager is read out. ..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />
With all the Seeker's emphasis on community and life, I keep getting puzzled by some of the domains they get and don't get (in 3.5). Necromancer and Deathbound I get, but ironically, Death itself is something the fight rather than venerate. Law seems to represent that they are expected to follow Erandis' words to the letter, should they ever realise she still exists. Evil, well, possibly negative energy and again, Erandis. But the community domain would be rather fitting. Of course, there is some leeway to assign slightly different domains to the various factions (Aereni traditions of Vol, Divinity-Within Seekers, Followers of Erandis, etc).
Every death diminishes us. Among other things, I see BoV priests as being far more likely to raise the dead that SF or PSH priests. Per the SF, the noble soul is strengthening the Flame. Per PSH, the soul will pass through Dolurrh to the higher realm of the Sovereigns. In either case, why would we take it away from that destiny without some dire need? While the BoV know you've only got a month or so before the soul is lost forever - if you have the power to pull it back to safety, DO IT!
Indeed. The limit on even True Resurrection which you mentioned elsewhere is quite fascinating too. I suppose Seeker priests will run in Mordain's door when they find out about Dolurh's Dawn, in order to figure out how he did that. I'm a bit sad that it prevents spells from calling up the spirits of the deceased to ask for advice, though I guess that could be done with speak-with-dead-like imprints in the right location. It also makes the Spirit Idol spell (PGtE) more important. Another spell I'm sure Seekers would pay dearly to get their hands on, assuming they don't already have an equivalent.
Filthy disease spreading ghouls aren't integrated into the BoV. Again, the goal of the BoV isn't to become undead. They don't see all undead as holy beings. Undeath is a way to escape death, and someone who becomes undead has the opportunity to continue to serve the living. That doesn't mean that they think all undead WILL, or that any undead creature has a beneficial role to play. Ghouls may indeed be irredeemable monsters that just happen to be undead. Similarly, if you have a contagious zombie outbreak a la 28 Days, Seekers would seek to protect their communities from it. It's mainly that the BoV doesn't accept the SF/Undying Court assertion that negative undeath is inherently a malignant force. They believe that the farm can benefit from having zombie workers, while the SF asserts that the presence of the zombies inherently eats away at the lifeforce of the world. As a side note, it's not that the SF can't imagine that an undead creature could be a good individual; they simply believe that regardless of the intent of the undead entity, its very existence harms the living.
I have to say, I like the idea of specialists amongst the Blood of Vol to contain those undead which pose a threat to the community. Finding a Seeker using his necromantic knowledge to fight a horde of ghouls or a zombie plague will throw the poor SF Templar rather off track. Then again, it was a combination of forces which put down Saeria Lantol, and I assume that amongst the Karrnathi contingent, some Seekers may have offered their insight. The idea that negative energy saps the life from the world irrespective of the creature's intent is very intriguing too, should there ever arise an opportunity for theological debate between the various parties without resulting in a shouting match.
And thank you again for taking the time to have this conversation!
Well, if they do use zombies a lot, the SF blaming the faith for spreading disease has its origin truth regardless of whether the necrotic energy itself does it. Rotting corpses are not particular healthy to have around ;) Wouldn't skeletons make more sense? They don't smell. They don't look like you loved ones. They might not be as strong and sturdy as zombies, but still, that is not that a big downside compared to the benefits ;)
As for ghouls, there are two ways they are depicted in stories. One is as near mindless murderous scavengers created when humans eat human corpses. In others they are depicted as the degenerate members of an ancient civilisation long in decline that live underground and have canabalistic tendencies. I suspect the high intelligence in the D&D ghouls has more to do with the degenerates than the scavangers.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">My wife is playing an exiled Knight of The Onyx Skull, and her goal is basically to bring the Onyx Skull back to Karnathi prominence on this very premise. I'm thinking about making her into a (probably reluctant) prophet of sorts, perhaps even starting a branched off faith or something, depending on her inclinations.
Also, apperently Mr. Baker and I use the Onyx Skull in about the same way. My wife's Vrylocka Blackguard is trying to bring them back together into a true Knighthood again, though. Basically, I'm thinking that if she succeeds, it will lead to a new church which is, somewhat ironically I guess, free from Erandis's influence.That’s an interesting character hook. As I already mentioned, I love the idea of a schism in the Church leading to a faction which believes in a messianic Queen of the Dead and one which claims that any such creature would just be the same as any of the other gods. I am still myself plotting the reactions of the Crimson Covenant about losing a potentially large, and certainly powerful and well-trained organisation (in your and Mr. Baker’s version, should they be reformed). And there are other interested parties… Thuranni, Cannith East, and at least one prominent member of Deneith have ties to the BoV, but which section would they chose ? Probably whichever offered them most power…
ooo. New facets I hadn't considered. Nice.
In my campaign, I'm not going so much with a Queen of The Dead thing, but rather a more meditative faith, based on self mastery, intellectual honesty/abillity to search for truth, faith in one's self and one's community, and a greater emphasis on community, which is the true reason that deathlessness is so important.
Perhaps a higher level goal will be to seek a non necromantic way to preserve the wisdom of the great souls of a community. Perhaps something like the Kalashtar, but with directed reincarnation rather than alien minds. Just throwing things out at this point.
It's also ironic to know that Kaius I may be considered a 'saint' of the BoV, whilst they curse his apparent grandson in the same breath.
Absolutely.
So it's a kind of organ-donor system, except you donate the entire body.
Exactly.
With all the Seeker's emphasis on community and life, I keep getting puzzled by some of the domains they get and don't get (in 3.5). Necromancer and Deathbound I get, but ironically, Death itself is something the fight rather than venerate.
It's all a question of how you see domains. Are they descriptive of the beliefs of the followers, or are they descriptive of the source of divine power those followers draw upon?
For example, I believe that many village priests of the Blood of Vol are neutral or good-aligned (though like Kaius, many are evil in the sense of what they are willing to do in order to achieve benevolent long term goals). This doesn't change the fact that the power they draw upon is an evil-aligned energy source, meaning that they channel negative energy, rebuke undead, etc. So the fact that they get the "Evil" and "Death" domains isn't because they VENERATE death or evil; it's because when they draw on divine power, the energy they receive is negative energy, which has the effect of harming the living, causing fear, desecrating areas, etc. They then USE these powers in their battle; so a priest of the Blood of Vol will use his Death-Domain death touch to protect his community from those who would harm them.
In other words, the CLERIC doesn't label himself as having "the death domain." These are mechanical labels we attach to what they do. He simply knows that he can draw on his divine spark to strike down those who would harm his flock.
This ties to the fact that while every death diminishes us, the Seekers are well aware that most of the people of Khorvaire are divine dupes who are their enemies. If they succeed in their long term goal, all mortals will benefit. Until then, put your family and community first. Should anyone stand in your way, do what it takes to protect the faithful.
Essentially, it's the same idea as the fact that you can be an evil priest of the Silver Flame and still channel positive energy. The divine power source has a concrete identity that is independent of the priest. The source channeled by the BoV is a negative energy source... even if the priests often use that power for positive ends. Bear in mind that they were originally taught to touch that power source by elves aligned with the line of Vol; they then applied the other theological trappings to it.
And, of course, a cleric doesn't have access to ALL of the domains of his faith. Thus, the village protector might have the Law and Necromancer domains, while the power-obsessed Emerald Claw agent might have Evil and Death.
And yes, obviously you could change the domains for a particular branch if you want to. But I have no problem with the fact that the faith encourages community but doesn't have the Community domain; after all, most successful religions encourage community!
I have to say, I like the idea of specialists amongst the Blood of Vol to contain those undead which pose a threat to the community.
Certainly.
The idea that negative energy saps the life from the world irrespective of the creature's intent is very intriguing too, should there ever arise an opportunity for theological debate between the various parties without resulting in a shouting match.
It's certainly something that was debated extensively in Aerenal prior to the erradication of the line of Vol.
Well, if they do use zombies a lot, the SF blaming the faith for spreading disease has its origin truth regardless of whether the necrotic energy itself does it. Rotting corpses are not particular healthy to have around ;) Wouldn't skeletons make more sense? They don't smell. They don't look like you loved ones. They might not be as strong and sturdy as zombies, but still, that is not that a big downside compared to the benefits ;)
Heh :D I guess you could use alchemical salves and the like to prevent the body from decomposing, attracing flies and generally becoming a host for bacteria. Also, I hope the magic prevents random parts from dropping off – a bit like what keeps happening to Reg Shoe in Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series. After all, it works for skeletons, who do not usually come with ligaments to hold the bones together.
As for ghouls, there are two ways they are depicted in stories. One is as near mindless murderous scavengers created when humans eat human corpses. In others they are depicted as the degenerate members of an ancient civilisation long in decline that live underground and have canabalistic tendencies. I suspect the high intelligence in the D&D ghouls has more to do with the degenerates than the scavangers.
True, I had forgotten about the underground, high-intelligence culture. I still have to consider the implications if ghouls, or at least some ghouls, are more than creatures driven by nothing beyond an unsavoury hunger.
Perhaps there are various types of ghouls. I could see the pathogen of ghoul fever actually mutating, creating either more advanced or more debased versions over the millennia. Perhaps one culture finding a way to transcend the mindlessness of conventional ghouls. Perhaps there’s also a difference whether one becomes a ghoul by some kind of ritual rather than as a curse for cannibalism or infection with ghoul fever.
Possibly, it’s even a breakthrough of the Ministry of the Dead. Vedim ir’Omik is certainly trying hard, even though some the creations ascribed to him in Magic of Eberron leave me to doubt his sanity and methodology. The result of ghouls who can actually be useful would have been a triumph of necromantic science. Especially if combined with the Netherhound template which appeared in one of the 3.5 Dragon Magazines, they’d make excellent scouts, skirmishers, and sentries. Though I can’t see someone willingly to become a ghoul when they could be a vampire, even if the vampire has a great number of weaknesses that make “life” rather complicated.
Perhaps a higher level goal will be to seek a non necromantic way to preserve the wisdom of the great souls of a community. Perhaps something like the Kalashtar, but with directed reincarnation rather than alien minds. Just throwing things out at this point.
A non-necromantic way to escape the Curse of Mortality seems to be the ideal. It would eliminate the reliance on either the sapping energies of Mabar or the power of Irian which relies on others to keep working.
“Directed Reincarnation” seems to be similar to what the Tairnadal are doing, though, although it’s not quite clear who does the directing. As far as I know, the individual does not get a choice whom she is to incarnate, and whether the Priest of Transition makes the choice consciously/subconsciously or really receives an omen is another of those elusive faith questions that make Eberron so different from those settings where you can just pop over to ask the gods to clarify.
I’m not sure whether reincarnation is something the Seekers would be so happy about, though. It would be great for the soul which is reincarnated, but what about the body into which it is reincarnated? Assuming this body already has a soul of its own from the moment it develops a blood system of its own, which I suppose is when life would begin according to Seeker doctrine. Unless reincarnation creates the body or supplies one that is not already occupied by a fledgling soul, which seems to be the case with the 3.5 reincarnation spell.
As an aide, this now makes me wonder whether there are people who have heard of the Valenar faith and half-digested and reached the conclusion that they are really possessed by the spirits of the dead and need to be exorcised.
Kalashtar-type reincarnation is interesting, although it involves immortal outsiders sharing a mortal body, even if said outsiders have been dilated over the generations of their hosts. I am not sure what the Seekers make of outsiders. Many of them have blood, and are immortal to boot; Kalashtar on the other hand are mortal and if the outsider’s personality is so diluted as to be nearly gone, that of the Kalashtar himself is also lost if Seeker doctrine is correct. But I could definetly see Seekers experimenting in this area, should the nature of Kalashtar become common knowledge (which, as far as I see it, is something very few people outside of the Quori and related creatures know about).
It's all a question of how you see domains. Are they descriptive of the beliefs of the followers, or are they descriptive of the source of divine power those followers draw upon? (...)These are mechanical labels we attach to what they do. He simply knows that he can draw on his divine spark to strike down those who would harm his flock.
I had not considered the second option. It is certainly interesting to see "Evil" and "Death" as synonymous to negative energy. That would also explain why the a priest who sees himself as good, and works for the greater good, nevertheless accepts that he works in a desecrated area (by the 3.5 spell name). Which, as you say, he doesn’t know is called “desecrate” in some book he has never heard about in a world he doesn’t know exists, but probably “sacred to the Blood”, and could be used even as an in-game reply to a paladin who tries to use the detect evil spell to 'prove' that animate dead is an evil act (and allow a paladin of the Blood not to lose his abilities and mind to a crisis of confidence once he detects evil on a champion of the faith who has actually proven that he has less evil thoughts than the corrupt laywer or avaricious inkeep you used on previous discussions into the nature of evil on Eberron).
For example, I believe that many village priests of the Blood of Vol are neutral or good-aligned (though like Kaius, many are evil in the sense of what they are willing to do in order to achieve benevolent long term goals).
I have browsed the forums and found that you mentioned Malevanor as a priest who truly believes in the tenets of the faith and seeks to protect the community, which really makes him a quite different character from the way I thought about him until today. Village priests who are ready to do whatever it takes to protect their community would certainly fit the shadowy image of Karrnath, whose people are a harsh and reserved yet like to have a drink together around the fireplace; who are used to a subpolar climate (or a continental one of extreme variations) and so know that nature knows no mercy, yet who still love their motherland and manage to work together in order to survive. Such an environment will probably have been another reason why the Blood spread from Farlnen into Karrnath, but not much beyond.
This ties to the fact that while every death diminishes us, the Seekers are well aware that most of the people of Khorvaire are divine dupes who are their enemies. If they succeed in their long term goal, all mortals will benefit. Until then, put your family and community first. Should anyone stand in your way, do what it takes to protect the faithful.
The image I am getting is that of the traditional view of wolves. Extremely pack-oriented creatures who are sometimes pushed by harsh conditions to commit deeds that earned them their fiendish reputation. The Seekers seem to suffer from the same bias. They are not aggressive in themselves, but will do what is necessary when the time comes. Considering the idea that the wolf is also the heraldic symbol of Karrnath...
Bear in mind that they were originally taught to touch that power source by elves aligned with the line of Vol; they then applied the other theological trappings to it.
Though the line of Vol does not seem to have been evil itself (beyond channelling an evil force). However ill-advised their experiments with their draconic allies was, it is their tragedy that they were exterminated for wanting peace by all means. I’m sure the settlers in what was to become Karrnath sympathised, knowing about the injustice of the world from the weather and the probably none too pleasant circumstances that made their forbearers emigrate from Sarlona in the first place.
After all, most successful religions encourage community!
I actually had to laugh that this didn’t occur to me! :D
It's certainly something that was debated extensively in Aerenal prior to the erradication of the line of Vol.
Though sadly, that debate was ended with sword and dragonfire
It is certainly interesting to see "Evil" and "Death" as synonymous to negative energy.
As you say, these are terms used in a book the priest has never seen. The priest knows exactly what negative energy does - bolstering Mabaran undead, harming the living. However, this is certainly a case of fighting fire with fire; when you understand how to harness this dangerous power, you can use it to strike down your enemies or reanimate your allies. Essentially, it's not unlike nuclear power. You may see it as incedibly dangerous; I see it as a tool that can benefit society when used wisely.
This is the point in the Aereni-Vol debate. It ENDED in dragonfire and steel, but bear in mind that the debate had been going on for centuries before it reached that point. The Undying Court maintains that negative energy is simply too dangerous to be used; Vol maintains that it can be harnessed for the good of society.
That would also explain why the a priest who sees himself as good, and works for the greater good, nevertheless accepts that he works in a desecrated area (by the 3.5 spell name). Which, as you say, he doesn’t know is called “desecrate” in some book he has never heard about in a world he doesn’t know exists, but probably “sacred to the Blood”...
Exactly. YOU may think of it as "desecrated", Paladin of the Silver Flame; I consider it to be sanctified, as it strengthens my undead allies who are here to protect my people and help my community.
and could be used even as an in-game reply to a paladin who tries to use the detect evil spell to 'prove' that animate dead is an evil act (and allow a paladin of the Blood not to lose his abilities and mind to a crisis of confidence once he detects evil on a champion of the faith who has actually proven that he has less evil thoughts than the corrupt laywer or avaricious inkeep you used on previous discussions into the nature of evil on Eberron).
I posted an in-depth look at my theory of alignment here. Essentially, the key to Eberron is that there are evil people who serve the greater good. When it comes to divine magic, "evil" generally means it's drawing on negative energy, while "good" magic draws on positive energy. It's forces like the Undying Court and Silver Flame who assert that and manipulation of negative energy threatens the living and is thus a truly "evil" act. As with the nuclear energy example, the priests of the Blood say that it is a dangerous force, but one that can be used for a good cause.
I have browsed the forums and found that you mentioned Malevanor as a priest who truly believes in the tenets of the faith and seeks to protect the community, which really makes him a quite different character from the way I thought about him until today.
I use Malevenor as the model of what the BoV believes the undead SHOULD be (and what the Emerald Claw things Erandis is) - beings who used their extended lives to work for the good of other Seekers. I think Malevenor's in a very interesting position, having to mollify Kaius and protect the common Seekers on one hand and having to deal directly with Erandis and her agenda on the other.
Though the line of Vol does not seem to have been evil itself (beyond channelling an evil force). However ill-advised their experiments with their draconic allies was, it is their tragedy that they were exterminated for wanting peace by all means. I’m sure the settlers in what was to become Karrnath sympathised, knowing about the injustice of the world from the weather and the probably none too pleasant circumstances that made their forbearers emigrate from Sarlona in the first place.
Certainly the harsh nature of the north plays to the general "the universe is against us, we must stand together" mentality of the BoV and the often ruthless (AKA "Evil") outlook that can accompany it. With that said, I wouldn't say the line of Vol were exterminated for wanting peace. The elven cultures split on the point of how to preserve their greatest souls. The Undying Court was founded on positive energy; Vol harnessed negative energy; and the Tairnadal pursued their form of focused reincarnation. If Vol wanted peace, they could have embraced the Undying Court. However, they felt that their approach was better, and were willing to fight for it. Again, the debate lasted for centuries; they could have backed down, and instead that went even further down unpopular paths with the draconic alliance.
I guess I wouldn't say they wanted "peace by all means" - they wanted immortality on their own terms.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">Perhaps a higher level goal will be to seek a non necromantic way to preserve the wisdom of the great souls of a community. Perhaps something like the Kalashtar, but with directed reincarnation rather than alien minds. Just throwing things out at this point.A non-necromantic way to escape the Curse of Mortality seems to be the ideal. It would eliminate the reliance on either the sapping energies of Mabar or the power of Irian which relies on others to keep working.
“Directed Reincarnation” seems to be similar to what the Tairnadal are doing, though, although it’s not quite clear who does the directing. As far as I know, the individual does not get a choice whom she is to incarnate, and whether the Priest of Transition makes the choice consciously/subconsciously or really receives an omen is another of those elusive faith questions that make Eberron so different from those settings where you can just pop over to ask the gods to clarify.
I’m not sure whether reincarnation is something the Seekers would be so happy about, though. It would be great for the soul which is reincarnated, but what about the body into which it is reincarnated? Assuming this body already has a soul of its own from the moment it develops a blood system of its own, which I suppose is when life would begin according to Seeker doctrine. Unless reincarnation creates the body or supplies one that is not already occupied by a fledgling soul, which seems to be the case with the 3.5 reincarnation spell.
As an aide, this now makes me wonder whether there are people who have heard of the Valenar faith and half-digested and reached the conclusion that they are really possessed by the spirits of the dead and need to be exorcised.
Kalashtar-type reincarnation is interesting, although it involves immortal outsiders sharing a mortal body, even if said outsiders have been dilated over the generations of their hosts. I am not sure what the Seekers make of outsiders. Many of them have blood, and are immortal to boot; Kalashtar on the other hand are mortal and if the outsider’s personality is so diluted as to be nearly gone, that of the Kalashtar himself is also lost if Seeker doctrine is correct. But I could definetly see Seekers experimenting in this area, should the nature of Kalashtar become common knowledge (which, as far as I see it, is something very few people outside of the Quori and related creatures know about).
Well, the idea for kalashtar type reincarnation is that the souls of the faithful join with the souls of living faithful. Instead of ousiders, it's your grandad, or some other member of the faith, perhaps "reincarnated" in "diluted" form, spread amongst the faithful, so that the knowledge and wisdom of these souls is shared amongst the community, and the soul remains, but in a new form, growing and evolving with the community, as part of it still.
I posted an in-depth look at my theory of alignment here. Essentially, the key to Eberron is that there are evil people who serve the greater good.
That is definetly one of my favourite aspects of Eberron. There is good stuff in the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Book of Vile Darkness, but their black-and-white view of the (roleplaying) world prevents a lot of interesting story and character elements. It would be interesting to extend the alignment à la Eberron to exalted and vile feats and prestige classes, making even people like Dariznu able to shine with the light of their conviction – with Nimbus of Light or Vow of Purity (so long as they do not doubt their devotion). It is also an other reason I like Karrnath, with its lawful-evil yet good-intentioned King (in the long run, anyway).
When it comes to divine magic, "evil" generally means it's drawing on negative energy, while "good" magic draws on positive energy.
This also helps to understand some of the oft-quoted probems with spells like deathwatch, which makes no sense as [evil] from a purely moral point of view. Although in that particular case, it’s still unclear as to why it uses negative energy, the magic-as-science approach of Eberron (because that’s the way it was researched...) gives it an explanation in the world.
The negative energy aspect also helps my view of the Karrnathi undead. Personally, I see them more as able to commit atrocities out of an "I was merely following orders" mentality, rather than for their own sake, because that would require emotion. In most cases, I don't see them as having any. They will torture someone to death if told to. They will slaughter every living thing in Sharn if that's the order. They may do these things if they judge them to be the best way to accomplish a mission, even if not specifically ordered to, but they won't take any pleasure in it. If told not to let anyone disturb his Excellency, they will kill the beggar or petitioner who insists, but they would not pursue someone who gets the message and leaves. If told to find out about the Thrane position, they may torture the locals, but stop once they have the information (probably quickly killing their victim so they cannot warn the Thranes). But always, without emotion. Unlike, say, a vampire, who I believe can feel emotion - which is his curse, since he can never fully satisfy it.
It's forces like the Undying Court and Silver Flame who assert that and manipulation of negative energy threatens the living and is thus a truly "evil" act. As with the nuclear energy example, the priests of the Blood say that it is a dangerous force, but one that can be used for a good cause.
I like the nuclear energy analogy. Although now I see people like the Red Watchers trying to obstruct government transports to dispose of necromantic waste – a bit like the protests by various movements in Germany, right across the border from me, against the “castor transports” which remove nuclear waste. I wonder whether I could include some Fallout at facilities of the Ministry of Magic, local enough to not affect the campaign setting, but still frightening (and covered up by the Dark Cabinet or other secret government police, of course).
One of my Seeker characters actually uses the Destructive Retribution feat (undead who die erupt in negative energy, healing their companions in the ranks), which could be used to illustrate the problem. So long as he dies in an undead company, his sacrifice was worth it; blowing up whilst escorting the Aundairian ambassador is probably not so good.
Also, I also see some interesting possibilities for guest lectures at Wynarn and Korranberg. Now that the War is over, I’m sure such institutions would enjoy a visiting Bone Night or Atur Academy professor from engaging in constructive debate. Despite the protests outside...
On the other hand, it has struck me that the same might be said about fire. At its most basic, fire is destructive. Moreover, just like Mabar's negative energy, it is often seen as "hungry". It may be harnessed for good, but historically spoken, that was one of the major turning points of human history, even in early myths. Mostly, it would be encountered as a wildfire, not something that warms you and keeps the shadows and dangerous predators away from the camp. Fire out of control, fire in its natural state is terrifying. That Fernia is evil-aligned seems to support this. The main fire-based religion is also more weighted towards evil: while they are no monsters, the Sulatar are none too friendly when something gets in the way of their Reign of Fire (although they probably do not see themselves as evil). Yet fire does not detect as evil. It would be interesting if it did, considering the CotSF seems to like that element, even though I see the Flame itself as more connected to light than to fire, and the name "Flame" a metaphora more than anything else.
I use Malevenor as the model of what the BoV believes the undead SHOULD be (and what the Emerald Claw things Erandis is) - beings who used their extended lives to work for the good of other Seekers. I think Malevenor's in a very interesting position, having to mollify Kaius and protect the common Seekers on one hand and having to deal directly with Erandis and her agenda on the other.
I don’t envy him. He’s really caught between a rock and several hard places, at least once those who are Seekers but aligned neither with Kaius nor Vol wonder why the church is not doing anything to prevent the monarchy from discriminating against them.
It could also be interesting if Malevanor was party to the return of Kaius, and helped him master his condition during the decades the king was not lying in his royal tomb as everyone supposed. From the EoE: Fort Bones I take it he was a gifted researcher. If that’s the case, and Vol ever found out, his unlife could turn even more interesting.
I much prefer this Malevanor to the way the temple is described in Five Nations, too. Living sacrifices have not really struck me as the way the normal Seeker would go. The Cult of Life, sure; Erandis Vol and those who are in it for themselves, by all means, but it seems to me that most Seekers would think it rather silly that you can sacrifice anyone other than yourself (or your own blood), and that there is anything you could sacrifice to. Unless you are merely harvesting necromantic components and reagents or feeding the vampires and ghouls (which is possible without killing anyone), in which case it’s not a sacrifice.
With that said, I wouldn't say the line of Vol were exterminated for wanting peace. The elven cultures split on the point of how to preserve their greatest souls. The Undying Court was founded on positive energy; Vol harnessed negative energy; and the Tairnadal pursued their form of focused reincarnation. If Vol wanted peace, they could have embraced the Undying Court. However, they felt that their approach was better, and were willing to fight for it. Again, the debate lasted for centuries; they could have backed down, and instead that went even further down unpopular paths with the draconic alliance.
I meant peace between the elves and the dragons, rather than between the line of Vol and the Undying Court.
It seems to me that the elves never really wanted that war, where (apart from some retaliation efforts by the Draelus Tairn) they were the fighting a defensive action. Of course, by the time of the birth of Erandis, anti-dragon feelings would have been firmly entranched in Aerenal.
Naturally, for all canon has to say about it, the line of Vol may well have planned to strike against the Undying Court, but got found out too early. Eliminating two enemies at one stroke, the dragons by an alliance and the Undying Court by victory in a civil war, could have been the aim... as well as the way to immortality. After all, the dragons believe in acenscion to godhood, and the Vol family bears dragonmarks.
Well, the idea for kalashtar type reincarnation is that the souls of the faithful join with the souls of living faithful. Instead of ousiders, it's your grandad, or some other member of the faith, perhaps "reincarnated" in "diluted" form, spread amongst the faithful, so that the knowledge and wisdom of these souls is shared amongst the community, and the soul remains, but in a new form, growing and evolving with the community, as part of it still.
It would be interesting to see the Blood of Vol try this. I could see attempts being made by having ghosts possess mortals – that ability they share with the Quori. Certain spells exist which bind the possessing force to the flesh (3.5, Secrets of Sarlona); going from there, it’s a matter of magico-genetical experimenting. Hm, I could definetly see a Blood of Vol facility hidden deep within the Karrnathi taiga/tundra trying this.
The negative energy aspect also helps my view of the Karrnathi undead. Personally, I see them more as able to commit atrocities out of an "I was merely following orders" mentality, rather than for their own sake, because that would require emotion. In most cases, I don't see them as having any.
For my part, I see a sharp distinction between the mindless skeleton/zombie - who are literally incapable of doing anything without orders - and the Karrnathi undead created by the Odakyr Rites, as described in Dungeon 195. A quote from that article:
Gyrnar Shult believed that the Karrnathi undead were animated by the martial spirit of Karrnath itself. This is why they can be produced only from the corpses of elite Karrnathi soldiers: an enemy corpse lacks the connection to Karrnath, while a fallen farmer has no bond to war. However, the Kind fears that the undead aren’t animated by the soul of Karrnath, but rather by an aspect of Mabar itself—that the combat styles of the undead might be those of the dark angels of Mabar. Over the years, he has felt a certain malevolence in his skeletal creations that he can’t explain, not to mention their love of slaughter. He has also considered the possibility that they are touched by the spirits of the Qabalrin ancestors of Lady Vol. The Kind hasn’t found any proof for these theories, but they haunt his dreams.
Tied to this is the idea that the Karrnathi undead seem to enjoy killing; they have to be given very clear orders if they are supposed to leave survivors. In suggesting this, my thought is that it is an aspect of them being Mabaran undead. Negative energy IS fundamentally anathema to the living; if the undead are in fact empowered by an aspect of Mabar, then it is in their nature to seek to extinguish life.
Personally, what I like about this is the idea that even the Seekers aren't entirely sure what they are dealing with in the Odakyr Rites, and that the Karrnathi undead SHOULD be disturbing. When you use animate dead, you just have a mindless shell. The Karrnathi undead is sentient - but do you have any idea what that sentience really is? Are all the Karrnathi undead really servants, or are they just going through the motions and serving some agenda we know nothing about?
In other notes, I've been going through my Q&A articles and I found this one, which goes into significant detail about the conflict between the positive/negative philosophies in Aerenal before the extermination of the Line of Vol. Meanwhile, this one has a section about the nature of the Blood of Vol and its followers.
For my part, I see a sharp distinction between the mindless skeleton/zombie - who are literally incapable of doing anything without orders - and the Karrnathi undead created by the Odakyr Rites, as described in Dungeon 195. A quote from that article:
Gyrnar Shult believed that the Karrnathi undead were animated by the martial spirit of Karrnath itself. This is why they can be produced only from the corpses of elite Karrnathi soldiers: an enemy corpse lacks the connection to Karrnath, while a fallen farmer has no bond to war. However, the Kind fears that the undead aren’t animated by the soul of Karrnath, but rather by an aspect of Mabar itself—that the combat styles of the undead might be those of the dark angels of Mabar. Over the years, he has felt a certain malevolence in his skeletal creations that he can’t explain, not to mention their love of slaughter. He has also considered the possibility that they are touched by the spirits of the Qabalrin ancestors of Lady Vol. The Kind hasn’t found any proof for these theories, but they haunt his dreams.
Tied to this is the idea that the Karrnathi undead seem to enjoy killing; they have to be given very clear orders if they are supposed to leave survivors. In suggesting this, my thought is that it is an aspect of them being Mabaran undead. Negative energy IS fundamentally anathema to the living; if the undead are in fact empowered by an aspect of Mabar, then it is in their nature to seek to extinguish life.
I had read the idea that there may be more to the Karrnathi Undead than sheer patriotism, but I had overlooked the part you rendered in bold. It would also explain why they apparently resist doing tasks that are not related to fighting, whereas most actual soldiers would be spending more time building camps, levelling roads and doing other engineering works than actually engaging in melee... it's too constructive for Mabar.
I guess my bone knight needs to be more careful with what orders he gives them!
By the way: considering the fact that the Karrnathi undead are actually 'all the same' (or perhaps with some variants depending on whether the soldier reanimated was a cavalryman or a phalangite, but even then they use techniques the deceased never knew), and cannot advance in level, where does the Dread Marshal (Forge of War again) come in? While very useful in battle, it seems to run counter to these ideas.
Personally, what I like about this is the idea that even the Seekers aren't entirely sure what they are dealing with in the Odakyr Rites, and that the Karrnathi undead SHOULD be disturbing. When you use animate dead, you just have a mindless shell. The Karrnathi undead is sentient - but do you have any idea what that sentience really is? Are all the Karrnathi undead really servants, or are they just going through the motions and serving some agenda we know nothing about?
The idea of the Karrnathi undead suddenly marching off to orders none of the military know about is certainly frightening. You are right that the idea of malevolence of an unknown origin is disturbing, especially if there is no precedent; assuming even those intelligent undead who lose the personality they had in life (wights, bodaks, shadows, etc I believe) are not similarily afflicted.
I now have images from Doctor Strangelove kreeping into my Eberron. I keep seeing a dark room where Kaius III and his advisers from Rekkenmark and a Sivis communicator are trying to tell Krozen that all of the Karrnathi undead regiments have decided to march on Thrane and cannot be called back...
In other notes, I've been going through my Q&A articles and I found this one, which goes into significant detail about the conflict between the positive/negative philosophies in Aerenal before the extermination of the Line of Vol. Meanwhile, this one has a section about the nature of the Blood of Vol and its followers.
Thanks for the links. I'd read them before, but I really need to find the time to create an indexed private compilation for my own use! Reading through them again clarified a lot of other questions. For instance, it also made me aware why the sudden appearance of half-elves would be horrifying to the dependents of Vol. It went into the completely opposite direction of their goals when breeding with dragons. Your portrayal of where the EC gets is recruits from is also very enlightening.
I had also missed the part where the dragons participated almost out of jealousy for not getting marks themselves. Their role in the story is another one that interests me, as I have this campaign idea of a dragon trying to breed dragonmarked progeny, inspired rather than warned off by the tales of the Emerald Claw, but doing it without the willing cooperation (or knowledge) of the current dragonmarked houses. I'm still stumped by how he is planning to avoid being discovered when dragonmarked scions suddenly go missing en masse, and by how he has managed the extensive eugenics program so far from both the dragonmarked and the dragons (and other watchers, such as the Mosaic Commitee of 5N, which seems to have dropped out of sight since that book was published).
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">Well, the idea for kalashtar type reincarnation is that the souls of the faithful join with the souls of living faithful. Instead of ousiders, it's your grandad, or some other member of the faith, perhaps "reincarnated" in "diluted" form, spread amongst the faithful, so that the knowledge and wisdom of these souls is shared amongst the community, and the soul remains, but in a new form, growing and evolving with the community, as part of it still.It would be interesting to see the Blood of Vol try this. I could see attempts being made by having ghosts possess mortals – that ability they share with the Quori. Certain spells exist which bind the possessing force to the flesh (3.5, Secrets of Sarlona); going from there, it’s a matter of magico-genetical experimenting. Hm, I could definetly see a Blood of Vol facility hidden deep within the Karrnathi taiga/tundra trying this.
That would be interesting, for sure. There's a lot of ways to go about it. I've also considered something like force ghosts, but I couldn't really find a way to make it not feel star wars.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">Well, the idea for kalashtar type reincarnation is that the souls of the faithful join with the souls of living faithful. Instead of ousiders, it's your grandad, or some other member of the faith, perhaps "reincarnated" in "diluted" form, spread amongst the faithful, so that the knowledge and wisdom of these souls is shared amongst the community, and the soul remains, but in a new form, growing and evolving with the community, as part of it still.It would be interesting to see the Blood of Vol try this. I could see attempts being made by having ghosts possess mortals – that ability they share with the Quori. Certain spells exist which bind the possessing force to the flesh (3.5, Secrets of Sarlona); going from there, it’s a matter of magico-genetical experimenting. Hm, I could definetly see a Blood of Vol facility hidden deep within the Karrnathi taiga/tundra trying this.
That would be interesting, for sure. There's a lot of ways to go about it. I've also considered something like force ghosts, but I couldn't really find a way to make it not feel star wars.
They could be tied to a place, maybe.
That would be interesting, for sure. There's a lot of ways to go about it. I've also considered something like force ghosts, but I couldn't really find a way to make it not feel star wars.
Force ghosts? I'm afraid I'm missing the reference, possibly because I only watched the original trilogy and Episode I and never got around the rest.
Reading the links Mr. Baker provided, I think I've gained some good direction on where to go with my new Vol Sect. :D
Is that a secret operation of the BoV or are you allowed to tell? ;)
That would be interesting, for sure. There's a lot of ways to go about it. I've also considered something like force ghosts, but I couldn't really find a way to make it not feel star wars.
Force ghosts? I'm afraid I'm missing the reference, possibly because I only watched the original trilogy and Episode I and never got around the rest.
Reading the links Mr. Baker provided, I think I've gained some good direction on where to go with my new Vol Sect. :D
Is that a secret operation of the BoV or are you allowed to tell? ;)
Force ghost as in Obi Wan in Empire and Return.
I'm still working on it, I'll share once I've got a better grasp.
Force ghost as in Obi Wan in Empire and Return.
Okay, I got it. Yes, that would not fit. Perhaps more of an empathic link connection, more subtle than outright (and unsollicited!) advice. Although I don't think the BoV would consider turning into something that can slightly influence your emotion be the promised divinity. Better than fading away completely, but not by much. Perhaps the Omniscient Whispers feat (spelltouched, Unearthed Arcana, 3.5) could be integrated.
I'm still working on it, I'll share once I've got a better grasp.
I will be looking foward to it.
I'm also not sure I'm gonna worry too much about whether there's an existing spell that maps to what I'm trying to do, whatever route I go. :P
Are we good with this thread? 'Cause I'd contribute if necessary, but I'm kinda drunk right now. As in, writing limericks drunk.
For me, there only remains the question about the Dread Marshal, and beyond that to thank Hellcow, for the fascinating theological insight he has given, despite being busy with his other projects!
Although, if you could do so in a separate thread, I'd love to hear Limericks about the rulers of the Five Nations and other important characters of Eberron. Feel free to make such a thread if the hangover hasn't put you out of the mood! ;)
By the way: considering the fact that the Karrnathi undead are actually 'all the same' (or perhaps with some variants depending on whether the soldier reanimated was a cavalryman or a phalangite, but even then they use techniques the deceased never knew), and cannot advance in level, where does the Dread Marshal (Forge of War again) come in? While very useful in battle, it seems to run counter to these ideas.
How so? The Dread Marshal isn't a normal Karrnathi skeleton that has somehow advanced in rank; it is an entirely different sort of undead, created by "substantial necromantic experimentation." If you're a paranoid conspiracy theorist, I'd say there's every chance that the Dread Marshal is Mabar's answer to the Inspired. The Karrnathi Undead are infused with Mabaran energy, but the Dread Marshal is an actual native spirit of Mabar that is inhabiting this vessel created for it (incidentally meaning that, like the Inspired, if a dread marshal's vessel is destroyed I'd say it could return in another body). The book says "despite their intelligence and sentience, dread marshals are supernaturally loyal to the Karrnathi chain of command"... to which I'll say "Yeah, that's exactly what they WANT you to think." When they suddenly sieze control of the undead armies to pursue their own agenda, see how far that loyalty goes. With that said, the point would be that they ARE incredibly loyal to Karrnath, because that's their CURRENT agenda; they have no individual ambitions and can't be turned against their cause.
I will call out the following bit: "They share the propensity of many undead to feel hatred toward the living, but their adherence to orders supersedes their desire for bloodshed, allowing them to restrict their impulses to the battlefield or other appropriate venues." This reflects the basic theory of the UC/SF: the powers of Mabar are fundamentally anathema to the living.
Although, if you could do so in a separate thread, I'd love to hear Limericks about the rulers of the Five Nations and other important characters of Eberron. Feel free to make such a thread if the hangover hasn't put you out of the mood! ;)
I'll see what I can do.
If you're a paranoid conspiracy theorist, I'd say there's every chance that the Dread Marshal is Mabar's answer to the Inspired.
The book says "despite their intelligence and sentience, dread marshals are supernaturally loyal to the Karrnathi chain of command"... to which I'll say "Yeah, that's exactly what they WANT you to think." When they suddenly sieze control of the undead armies to pursue their own agenda, see how far that loyalty goes. With that said, the point would be that they ARE incredibly loyal to Karrnath, because that's their CURRENT agenda; they have no individual ambitions and can't be turned against their cause.
Keith, I heart you so much it hurts, sometime. That is a wonderful plot point I can slip into my toolbox. I'm thinking that could be Vol's step in her plan to take over Karrnath, have everybody venerate her, and then become a god.
Keith, I heart you so much it hurts, sometime.
Always glad to help!
And just to throw out a weirder concept... as opposed to being Mabar's version of the Inspired, what if the Dread Marshals ARE the Inspired? I've always said that the Inspired would use a different face in Khorvaire - what if there are mind seeds among the necromancers of Karrnath who helped create undead vessels for the Quori? Tricking both Vol and the Karrns into creating these undead armies which they can ultimately sieze control of for a literally bloodless coup? If you go this route, I'd say that an Inspired Marshal would (just like an Inspired vessel) get the psi-like and spell-like abilities of its possessing quori - they simply never use them on behalf of Karrnath, so no one's realized they have them.
If your campaign is about Vol, you probably don't want to go this way. But it would be a great surprise in a game where people are fighting the Dreaming Dark and think the Next Big Threat will come from Riedra... whereas actually the undead armies of Karrnath are the force they will use to claim their foothold in Khorvaire.
How so? The Dread Marshal isn't a normal Karrnathi skeleton that has somehow advanced in rank; it is an entirely different sort of undead, created by "substantial necromantic experimentation."
I had assumed that they were created using the same rites - not actually an advanced Karrnathi skeleton, but something that happens if you reanimate an officer with (an updated form of) the Odaykr rites. That confusion on my part is resolved if it’s as different from the Karrnathi skeleton as a vampire, mummy, or other type of undead would be – thanks again for helping !
If you're a paranoid conspiracy theorist, I'd say there's every chance that the Dread Marshal is Mabar's answer to the Inspired. The Karrnathi Undead are infused with Mabaran energy, but the Dread Marshal is an actual native spirit of Mabar that is inhabiting this vessel created for it (incidentally meaning that, like the Inspired, if a dread marshal's vessel is destroyed I'd say it could return in another body).
Great idea ! If inhabited by Mabaran spirits, the immortality the Seekers look for would probably also be anathema to the lords of Mabar : as you suggest below, they could move against both of them. It would make for an interesting campaign if Kaius has to ally with Vol again once both parties realise that Korth and Farlnen are under siege.
And just to throw out a weirder concept... as opposed to being Mabar's version of the Inspired, what if the Dread Marshals ARE the Inspired? I've always said that the Inspired would use a different face in Khorvaire - what if there are mind seeds among the necromancers of Karrnath who helped create undead vessels for the Quori? Tricking both Vol and the Karrns into creating these undead armies which they can ultimately sieze control of for a literally bloodless coup? If you go this route, I'd say that an Inspired Marshal would (just like an Inspired vessel) get the psi-like and spell-like abilities of its possessing quori - they simply never use them on behalf of Karrnath, so no one's realized they have them.If your campaign is about Vol, you probably don't want to go this way. But it would be a great surprise in a game where people are fighting the Dreaming Dark and think the Next Big Threat will come from Riedra... whereas actually the undead armies of Karrnath are the force they will use to claim their foothold in Khorvaire.
Nice !
Hm, a Khorvaire ruled by the undead and possibly using the abilities of vampires to dominate and enslave mortals would probably go a long way to prevent the wheel of ages in Dal Quor from turning. Unless the plan is even more complicated and the undead are supposed to cause havoc, requiring chosen champions to put down – which they will, if the Quori play both sides of the board, without either being aware of it (though that is closer to what happened on Sarlona).
Always glad to help!
I have to echo Ogiwan : your readiness to explain in so many details is very much appreciated !