So I just wanted to know what people who already read the book think about it. Is it good like the others?It explains the whole Thorn/Sarmondelarix relationship? A review would be good 
In this regards the novel actually touches a problem that any storyteller has, especially a DM in a RPG game. How do you represent a villain that has powers which makes it almost impossible to fool, such as the quori or nigmare eladrin that can enter dreams or who can place mind seeds, so that they remain scary, but at the sime time do not overwhelm the heroes of the story without it looking contrived. At least with the Lords of Dust and the Chamber you can use the excuse that the Prophecy prevents them from retaliating...
I mean, It is annoying when an author is megalomaniac enough to want to force a consumer to beg for more novels from him just to know the ending (wich is unlikely to happen, like the fate of the Dreaming Dark crew). Sad.
Good novels but no more Keith Baker books to me.
I just read The Fading Dream and I am frustrated by the inability of the author to finish a story without leaving cliffhangers ( its OBVIOUS to the reader that there is more to the story).
I mean, It is annoying when an author is megalomaniac enough to want to force a consumer to beg for more novels from him just to know the ending.
I'm sorry that you feel that way, Zohar. I'm the first to agree that the ending of the Dreaming Dark was a bad way to wrap up a series; it was my belief that there was going to be a second series, so I wasn't trying to make people beg for more, but rather set up the next story arc. Obviously this didn't happen, which is why I tried to get some resolution in the Thorn books.
With Thorn, on the other hand, the series was never conceived of as a trilogy. Originally, we discussed five books; at this point, I don't know if those will come out, but that was the plan. As such, Thorn is still in the middle of her character arc. Knowing that this could end up being the last book, I wanted to at least explain the Sarmondelaryx connection and get some resolution there... So that mystery is tied up. But it was always the case that solving that mystery was the set-up for her next story arc - what does she do with that information? I don't know if we'll get the books that resolve that story, and I don't expect readers to beg for them. But it's how the arc was planned from the beginning, and it's not a story that could end with a typical mission for the Citadel.
In any case, my goal was to leave you with the mystery that's been hanging over the series resolved, and with Thorn setting out on a new path. Yes, there are new mysteries because of that revalation, and it's my hope those will be resolved in the future. But I don't think it's the same as TDD, where you don't know the final fate of the characters and hey, they're in Sarlona. Thorn's found an answer and is starting a new adventure. She's in control of her life in a way she hasn't been throughout the series. The story's not over... But it was never supposed to be over here. But in any case, I'm sorry you were unsatisfied.
Keith Baker is the creator of Eberron and I think it is awesome that he has written novels to give us some extra insight into his world. Yes I like other Eberron novels as well, but when I read one of his novels I feel like I am seeing things the way he invisions them. That is so cool to me.
I just wish I could have some of my stories of his awesome world end up in print some day. You da man Keith!
I do agree, though, that I like to feel a *full* sense of completion at the end of a grand adventure, or a series. As a reader moving through an epilogue, I don't really want to read the prologue for the next book. I don't need to know where the hero is going next, or the ultimate fate of the big bad (unless the big bad is really dead!). That stuff makes the story I just enoyed feel less impactful and less heroic, at least to me. In an epilogue, I just want some plot threads wrapped up, and maybe enjoy a few heroic quips. With a really great hero, just the fact that they are still standing and cracking wise at the end tells me that, publishing gods willing, there will be more adventures!
I do agree, though, that I like to feel a *full* sense of completion at the end of a grand adventure, or a series.
And that's fair. I agree completely: the way in which I ended The Gates of Night was a mistake. It was the end of a trilogy, and while I wanted to leave openings for the future, you don't end a trilogy on a cliffhanger. It wasn't meglomania - it was my own inexperience as a writer.
On the other hand, as I said, Thorn wasn't conceived as a trilogy. This isn't supposed to be the end. I always saw her grand adventure as having five parts. Unfortunately, I don't know if we'll get the last two. But it wasn't really a story that could be wrapped up without dealing with forces we haven't met properly yet - forces that have nothing to do with the Eladrin. I wanted to give some sense of resolution on the largest issue, but it's not something that was supposed to end with this book.
I do agree, though, that I like to feel a *full* sense of completion at the end of a grand adventure, or a series.
And that's fair. I agree completely: the way in which I ended The Gates of Night was a mistake. It was the end of a trilogy, and while I wanted to leave openings for the future, you don't end a trilogy on a cliffhanger. It wasn't meglomania - it was my own inexperience as a writer.
On the other hand, as I said, Thorn wasn't conceived as a trilogy. This isn't supposed to be the end. I always saw her grand adventure as having five parts. Unfortunately, I don't know if we'll get the last two. But it wasn't really a story that could be wrapped up without dealing with forces we haven't met properly yet - forces that have nothing to do with the Eladrin. I wanted to give some sense of resolution on the largest issue, but it's not something that was supposed to end with this book.
I think the principal point is that the author shoud not sell a "trilogy" of five or six books. In the moment you are contracted for a trilogy you shoud end the history in the said trilogy and not expect the publisher to give you another two books for you to finish your history. That is bad storytelling and in my case, frustrating.
By the way, sorry for the "megalomaniacal" part, it was a little over the top...
Although, I do have a few elements I would have loved to see expanded:
The "fairy tale"-feeling and -society is a great idea! But somehow the Eladrin of the Spires still felt too human. Maybe that was intentional, but I would have loved to read more about the alien culture of these fey creatures. The bizarre rules and order could have been expanded quite a bit (the "kiss" scene was brilliant, more like that). That's something a lot of fantasy books lack - conveying alien cultures is pretty difficult :-)
I certainly hope to see Thorn's story arc finished in the near future. My better half was already pretty angry about the end of "The Dreaming Dark", and as I mentioned the cliff hanger in this one...
Is there any chance you'll get to write The Dreaming Dark Pt.II in the future, or is that chapter closed for good?
I think the principal point is that the author shoud not sell a "trilogy" of five or six books. In the moment you are contracted for a trilogy you shoud end the history in the said trilogy and not expect the publisher to give you another two books for you to finish your history. That is bad storytelling and in my case, frustrating.
And I think you miss what I'm saying, Zohar. Thorn of Breland wasn't conceived as a trilogy, either by Wizards or myself. It was always intended to be a character-driven, open-ended series. While I was only contracted for the first three books - because sales are always a critical factor - my editor and I discussed a five-book arc from the very beginning (and even had the titles established for all five). For example, I want to explore Steel's background in greater detail, and my editor said not to force that into this book if it didn't fit with the story - save it for the next one. Far from intentionally leaving things hanging, I went out of my way to force a sense of resolution on the Thorn-Sarmondelaryx backstory into TFD because I realized that we might not get the final two books, and I didn't want the series to end with that left as a mystery.
It's a lot like Babylon Five. From the start it was planned as a five-season story, and then they found out that the show might be cancelled without all five seasons and had to figure out a way to react. I wasn't trying to stretch the story out beyond its planned three books, because it wasn't planned as a three book series. The ending of The Gates of Night was a mistake, and that's on me - as I said, that was my own inexperience. But it wasn't even until I was writing the end of TFD that I said "Wait - what if this IS the last one? We need some resolution on this." If a new book about Lei and Pierce came out, it wouldn't be "The Dreaming Dark 4" - it would be a new series using those characters. But if another Thorn book comes out, it WOULD be "Thorn of Breland 4".
So again - I'm sorry that you were unsatisfied with the ending. But it's a different situation than GoN, and like I said, I actually adjusted the story at the end to try to give it a more conclusive ending than was originally planned.
I certainly hope to see Thorn's story arc finished in the near future. My better half was already pretty angry about the end of "The Dreaming Dark", and as I mentioned the cliff hanger in this one...
Honestly, I just don't know. And the end of the day, I imagine that it's a question of how well the novels sell. A lot of bookstores don't even carry Eberron novels. To the best of my knowledge, there's no plans for future print RPG supplements for Eberron (though I'd love it if there are!). I'd love to be able to finish Thorn's story as it was originally planned, and I'd love to get back to the Dreaming Dark crew. But I just don't know if there's going to be an opportunity.
The "fairy tale"-feeling and -society is a great idea! But somehow the Eladrin of the Spires still felt too human. Maybe that was intentional, but I would have loved to read more about the alien culture of these fey creatures. The bizarre rules and order could have been expanded quite a bit (the "kiss" scene was brilliant, more like that). That's something a lot of fantasy books lack - conveying alien cultures is pretty difficult :-)
Yeah. We recently had a discussion about eladrin and their inability to sleep and hence dream. I play an eladrin raised by the elves of House Phiarlann, and he recently ended up in a "dream"-quest due to an unfortunate incident with a Xoriat artifact. It brought home the fact how odd that must be for a character who never sleeps, and how much sleeping and dreaming is part of human culture, behavior and biology. One thing we concluded is that eladrin must have some kind of conscious ability to retain memories (dreams are important to humans in regards to processing memories), remembering stuff with bigger clarity but also with less emotional attachment (mechanically that would be the +2 Int, and the +2 to Arcana and History).
Thorn of Breland wasn't conceived as a trilogy, either by Wizards or myself.
Just to clarify - this isn't intended to change the fact that you were disatisfied with the ending; that's on me. My point is simply that the ending of Gates of Night is something I recognize as a mistake, and not the way to end a trilogy. With Thorn, when I plotted The Fading Dream and began writing it, I didn't think that I was writing "the third book in a trilogy", and the story simply wasn't designed to be a conclusion. Towards the end I realized that it might end up being the last book, so I did shift things to give a few more conclusive answers, specifically on the Sarmondelaryx story. But I couldn't give complete resolution because that requires a lot of forces that simply had nothing to do with her mission in this book. I recognize that this doesn't make the ending any more satisfying for you, and I'm sorry to hear that; I'm just saying that this wasn't me megalomaniacally trying to stretch things out beyond a trilogy, it was a trying to reach some conclusion in a story that was originally designed to be the mid-point of a five-book arc, not an end in itself.
There are a few things I couldn't quite understand like, I always thought that the Silver Tree (and their eladrins) had all died during the day of mourning and there was nothing left. How did they survive? Also, the part when Thorn and Drix break into that "secret" facility gave me the "wtf?", they got in and out and I couldn't quite say what was going on and what was the purpose of that. Thorn's behavior was strange to say the least, and that whole section didn't really contribute to anything for the book, in my opinion.
I really liked the way the eladrins are presented to us in the book, their attitudes, and overall feeling of their culture gives a bunch of room for us (as DMs) to explore on our games.
Finally, I didn't get the same sense as Zohar had about the cliffhanger at the ending, to me the story was very conclusive (although, I haven't read The Dreaming Dark to understand where Zohar is coming from).
Knowing that there was supposed to be two more books, I hope they get published someday.
Also, FYI: The third and final installment of the Dungeon 'Explore Taer Lian Doresh' series, "Villains and Vendettas," just went up on DDI. Since it, and Keith's novel, is probably the final lore we'll have about the fey of the Fading Dream (or at least for a very long time), I tried very hard to give it a proper send-off.
wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/duad/...
For any of you who liked the ideas in Keith's book, this series is meant to help DMs flesh out Taer Lian Doresh and the nightmare fey. Lots of ideas in there for how to use it in a game. Even though it's a paragon tier location, I tossed in plenty of heroic tier ways of getting involved. The last section is even called The Endgame of Shan Doresh.
Also, the part when Thorn and Drix break into that "secret" facility gave me the "wtf?", they got in and out and I couldn't quite say what was going on and what was the purpose of that. Thorn's behavior was strange to say the least, and that whole section didn't really contribute to anything for the book, in my opinion.
The facility serves two purposes, it explains how the artificer could open a connection to a portal close to the Spire of Dreaming. Remember, in 4E teleportation is to fixed locations and without it, you would need some other weird explenation for how to get to the Spire so fast. Furthermore, it works with the theme of Thorn's strong distrust for the Dragonmarked Houses which is the main reason why she actually sets out to free the trolls instead of simply leaving quickly. Of course, I would wish Keith also spend some time on the fact that the Dragonmarked Houses are big, and that not every member of said Houses are corrupt greedy members of power-hungry mega-cooperations* ;) It also gave a good opportunity and explenation for the presence of the manticore, whom is very likely one of the three hags of Droaam (it is never said directly if I remember correctly, but the manticore wanting a story and its connection with some of key plot elements in Queen of Stone makes it very likely). In a way, Thorn was not even lying when she said she was working for the hags when liberating the trolls.
* In our current HC all PCs are members of a Dragonmarked Houses, but they are the type that would do exactly as Thorn when faced with the same choice, especially since you could get a troll to help volluntarily by giving it enough food and shining things. In fact, we already did once more or less, although House Vidalis did tell us what had transpired at that place never had been sanctioned by the House (we are obfusely not entirely sure that is the truth).
What I'm saying is that it was a bit unnecessary. The author could just have followed on with "whatever point in whitepine forest and we'll figure a way from there" the manticore and the trolls could show up regardless (I mean, he's the one writing the book, after all) and then there would be a lot more space to develop the ending or whatever other part of the story. So to put it bluntly, it felt as if it was there just to fill the page count.
Yeah, but when they were at Ascalin (sp?) and the spirit was tearing the door down, she told Drix to pick whatever teleportation circle available on the whitepine forest and just go "we'll figure a way from there", but Drix insisted in picking the other (hidden) one...
Technically, she was saying "Go to the city of Tantamar and we'll find our way from there", with the idea that Tantamar was the only place large enough to have a teleportation circle but was really not very close at all; they would have had to charter an airship or something like that, assuming they could find such a thing. In the outline, the idea was that Tantamar was simply too far away and they'd never make it in time, but I'm not sure that came out in the final draft.
Honestly, I added it because I wanted a chance for Thorn to do a little more espionage. The section went through a number of drafts; the first had Thorn actually being a guest at the facility for a period of time, with the people there trying to figure out Drix's deal, but it was even more of a distraction than as it stands. The Mournland section would have worked as well for Daine as for Thorn - adventurer crossing a hostile territory. I wanted to get back to the idea that Thorn is a spy and have her get to do some sneaking around and sabotage.
So it wasn't about filling the page count, as much as coming up with an explanation for their being a close circle and giving Thorna chance to do what she's supposedly best at... as opposed to just going to the big city and renting a boat. But I see your frustration.
Of course, I would wish Keith also spend some time on the fact that the Dragonmarked Houses are big, and that not every member of said Houses are corrupt greedy members of power-hungry mega-cooperations* ;)
Well, I'll point out that Drix himself is a member of House Cannith; part of the point of that was that House Cannith includes traveling tinkers as well as folks like Merrix. And Thorn was prepared to deal with Lyrandar or Vadalis if she'd had to go to Tantamar. I guess I've fallen prey to the same trap that happens to other people when they show the Silver Flame - it's easier to focus on the bad guys because they have more dramatic roles in the story than helpful, friendly folks.
If you go back to the Dreaming Dark, everyone but Pierce is part of a dragonmarked house. While none of them have ties to their house any more, I don't think that speaks poorly of the houses themselves. Daine quit Deneith because of its mercenary nature, but that's Deneith's role in society; it wasn't that the house was corrupt, it's just that he wanted a cause greater than gold. Lei's excoriation was a mystery, but overall she believed the house to be a positive force and was a good person herself. So yes, I think the problem is that spotlight always falls on the villains.
For any of you who liked the ideas in Keith's book, this series is meant to help DMs flesh out Taer Lian Doresh and the nightmare fey. Lots of ideas in there for how to use it in a game. Even though it's a paragon tier location, I tossed in plenty of heroic tier ways of getting involved. The last section is even called The Endgame of Shan Doresh.
Great work, Jeff - and nice piece of art!
Technically, she was saying "Go to the city of Tantamar and we'll find our way from there", with the idea that Tantamar was the only place large enough to have a teleportation circle but was really not very close at all; they would have had to charter an airship or something like that, assuming they could find such a thing. In the outline, the idea was that Tantamar was simply too far away and they'd never make it in time, but I'm not sure that came out in the final draft.
That is what I understood ;)
If you go back to the Dreaming Dark, everyone but Pierce is part of a dragonmarked house. While none of them have ties to their house any more, I don't think that speaks poorly of the houses themselves. Daine quit Deneith because of its mercenary nature, but that's Deneith's role in society; it wasn't that the house was corrupt, it's just that he wanted a cause greater than gold. Lei's excoriation was a mystery, but overall she believed the house to be a positive force and was a good person herself. So yes, I think the problem is that spotlight always falls on the villains.
I haven't read that series yet. A bit hard to get my hands on, although I could borrow it from friends. Regardles, I agree, it is just that much easier to remember the illegal stuff done by Merrix, the nasty Deneith murderer and this facility as opposed to a few individuals not even actively involved with the Houses. In that regards the Dhakaan series is a bit better since it involves NPCs still actively involved with the Houses and places them in a normal light: merchants looking to make a profit, but placing limits on what they are willing to do for it ;) Still, this is just nitpicking. It certainly did not distract me from the story. It just made me wonder how Thorn would react when meeting a group like our HC group ;)
I really didn't know that there might be more books in this series than three until I read this thread. Woot woot! If there's anything I can do to help with that let me know. Write a letter, start a petition (no idea how to do that) or whatever. Thorn's one of my favorite characters, and I would love to see more of her and Steel.
And as for the ending, all three of the Thorn books certainly seemed to fit the whole 'stories don't always end completely well' theme: Droaam still an outsider, Tarkanan still at war, The Mourning still exists. It always seems like a return to the status quo. I'm more of a fan true resolutions, happy endings and such, but your stories are so good I have a hard time complaining about them, and you're endings do leave the characters of my stories the freedom to resolve things, so thank you. I'd love to see more of the whole "Thorn/Sarm/Chamber" idea (I think Zane is the Chamber agent) but if this is it, I'll be happy with it. (hehehe, I can always just make up more adventures for in my head for her to go on. I'm a dreamer like that.)
As far as the Houses and Silver Flame, I admit I too have fallen into the whole 'focus on the evil' thing. Queen Aurala, corrupt clerics, prejudiced barons, I've seen them all. But true to my happy endings fetish, I prefer redemption to damnation. Some people may go to jail (or Dolurrh) but overall I like to sign more treaties than war declarations. In my campaign, I've had a rogue Tarkanan actually approach Lyrandar, Kundarak, and Jorlanna d'Cannith, not to fight the Dragonmarked Houses, but to make peace with them. There's still a long way to go, and I'm pretty sure there's gonna be a war at some point (coughMerrixcoughDeneithcoughSiviscough) but if something's worth having, it's worth fighting for.
Anyway, thanks a lot Keith, for the stories and the world. Whatever you make next, I look forward to getting my hands on it.
I've generally enjoyed the Thorn of Breland novels. I had been looking forward to the Fading Dream based on the DDI articles on Taer Lian Doresh, but I was a bit disappointed by that aspect of the novel. Not so much because what we see of Shan Doresh is bad, but because very little of the novel takes place in Taer Lian Doresh.
Queen of Stone still stands as the best of the three novels I think. Son of Khyber and The Fading Dream both have some pacing problems in my opinion--there is a lot of buildup, and then things just sort of resolve abruptly. A lot of fantasy novels tend to be bloated these days, but these two novels if anything felt a bit too short.
Queen of Stone still stands as the best of the three novels I think. Son of Khyber and The Fading Dream both have some pacing problems in my opinion--there is a lot of buildup, and then things just sort of resolve abruptly.
This is my opinion as well, honestly. The last two years have been a very chaotic time for me for many reasons, and I feel that these books suffered as a result of that. My original plan was to spend more time in Taer Lian Doresh itself, and there was lots of additional interesting ideas to explore there, as Jeff has shown in his articles; as it worked out, it is a bit of a mad rush at the end.
Regardles, I agree, it is just that much easier to remember the illegal stuff done by Merrix, the nasty Deneith murderer and this facility as opposed to a few individuals not even actively involved with the Houses. In that regards the Dhakaan series is a bit better since it involves NPCs still actively involved with the Houses and places them in a normal light: merchants looking to make a profit, but placing limits on what they are willing to do for it ;) Still, this is just nitpicking.
Just to counter-nitpick... as I see it Drix IS actively a member of House Cannith. He's a card-carrying member of the Tinker's Guild who makes a living traveling to villages that lack a full house presence and providing the services of an artificer, as his father did before him. He's not actively involved with house leadership, because there's no reason for him to be hanging around with the patriarch or for Merrix to have the slightest idea who he is; but he is nonetheless an heir-in-good-standing, who happens to have a job that doesn't generally require him to interact often with other members of the house.
It's a very different scenario from Ashi and Vounn, to be sure. But looking to Sorghan in Son of Khyber, I'll note that he's supposed to be a sociopathic exception as opposed to the norm... which is why Steel is initially opposed to fighting him. The reason for targeting him is threefold: he's a Sentinel Marshal, and as such no true Lantern should be willing to kill him; as he's a murderer, he is a dangerous enemy of the Tarkanans in a way most normal members of the house aren't; and as he puts the house in a bad light, he's also a great choice for steering Thorn's sympathies in their direction - this is the face of our enemy. But he's not supposed to represent the bulk of the house.
Meanwhile, looking to the people working at the Pit...
Show
Honestly, I don't think most of them are bad people; they simply don't have empathy for trolls and believe that it's OK to torture trolls if the end result of that research will benefit humans/elves/halflings/etc. We are talking about trolls, which while sentient, are carnivorous creatures renown for their violent behavior, who people of the Five Nations will generally only know of from stories of the Droaam front... which are going to be tales of raids and brutality. The trolls at the Pit don't speak Common, which doesn't help. Meanwhile, the potential benefits of being able to replicate their natural regeneration are huge; it could revolutionize modern medicine.
Am I suggesting that what they are doing is justified? Not at all. That's why it's outlawed under the Korth Edicts & Code of Galifar. But I can understand how people who would never condone performing such experiments on humans would be comfortable doing it to trolls - how they could rationalize it and say "It's OK, it's just a monster." It's only a few steps away from animal testing in our world, and we don't have such an obvious prize waiting to be gained. The Deneith captain does come across as a little sadistic, but for all we know he served on the Droaam front and lost half his unit to a troll attack; this sadism may be something that is very specifically targeted.
Yes and no. You're absolutely correct that Thorn's distrust of the houses drives her actions. But she doesn't put herself out to free the trolls; let's face it, as far as she knows there's no help waiting for the troll outsides, and she doesn't actually try to help them escape once she's let them out. She uses them as a distraction. She doesn't know the layout of the building or what sort of security forces are about, so she can't just leave quickly. She lets the trolls out to cause chaos and cover her escape, and in the process is responsible for the death of a number of savants who, while willing to torture trolls, may very well have been decent folks with families beyond that.
So really, this is supposed to be a very gray area. You can be sure that if this work revolutionizes Jorasco healing that they'll charge dearly for it, but it could still revolutionize medicine and help tens or hundreds of thousands of people... at the expense of causing pain (and not even permanent injury!) to trolls. Nonetheless, they are torturing the trolls instead of working with them on equal terms, and acting in violation of the edicts. Meanwhile, Thorn ALSO uses the trolls to accomplish her goals, and driven by that distrust is willing to wreak havoc on a research center when she really doesn't understand its purpose. I don't see anyone as standing out as especially virtuous in this section.
Am I suggesting that what they are doing is justified? Not at all. That's why it's outlawed under the Korth Edicts & Code of Galifar. But I can understand how people who would never condone performing such experiments on humans would be comfortable doing it to trolls - how they could rationalize it and say "It's OK, it's just a monster." It's only a few steps away from animal testing in our world, and we don't have such an obvious prize waiting to be gained. The Deneith captain does come across as a little sadistic, but for all we know he served on the Droaam front and lost half his unit to a troll attack; this sadism may be something that is very specifically targeted.
Furthermore, it works with the theme of Thorn's strong distrust for the Dragonmarked Houses which is the main reason why she actually sets out to free the trolls instead of simply leaving quickly.
Yes and no. You're absolutely correct that Thorn's distrust of the houses drives her actions. But she doesn't put herself out to free the trolls; let's face it, as far as she knows there's no help waiting for the troll outsides, and she doesn't actually try to help them escape once she's let them out. She uses them as a distraction. She doesn't know the layout of the building or what sort of security forces are about, so she can't just leave quickly. She lets the trolls out to cause chaos and cover her escape, and in the process is responsible for the death of a number of savants who, while willing to torture trolls, may very well have been decent folks with families beyond that.
So really, this is supposed to be a very gray area. You can be sure that if this work revolutionizes Jorasco healing that they'll charge dearly for it, but it could still revolutionize medicine and help tens or hundreds of thousands of people... at the expense of causing pain (and not even permanent injury!) to trolls. Nonetheless, they are torturing the trolls instead of working with them on equal terms, and acting in violation of the edicts. Meanwhile, Thorn ALSO uses the trolls to accomplish her goals, and driven by that distrust is willing to wreak havoc on a research center when she really doesn't understand its purpose. I don't see anyone as standing out as especially virtuous in this section.
I know those characters are the exception to the norm, but people tend to remember the exception and not the norm. In my experience in adventure writing, the only way to off-set a negative image of an organization is by including characters that are the exact opposite. In this case that would mean people actively part of the Dragonmarked House structure who go out of their way to help Thorn or oppose corruption. Without such examples of white, the players most often assume something is villainous. Granted, writing a novel is completely different from writing adventures (and I wish more adventure writers realized that ;)), but I think this part is the same for both types of story telling.
Show
Of course, just to take the side of the Traveler... One reason I don't present the houses as virtuous is because I don't believe the houses ARE virtuous. I'm always championing the Church of the Silver Flame when it is depicted in a negative light because at its foundation, the Church is an altruistic organization devoted to charitable works and defending the innocent, and that's why most of its members are drawn to it. The houses are nothing of the sort; they are businesses that seek to prosper, and who have historically done that by wielding monopolistic power to crush competition. They have been held in check by the greater power of Galifar, and that power no longer exists. Taking House Jorasco, they are the House of Healing - but they heal in exchange for gold. This is how they prosper; as called out on page 216 of the ECG, "House Jorasco has little sense of charity, and its mercenary approach to what some regard as indispensable acts of mercy engenders a fair amount of resentment." And again, historically, the house have acting ruthlessly to protect their monopolies. Are they villainous? Not necessarily. They aren't out to conquer the world (probably). But they are, by and large, ruthless profiteers.
Now, that's the houses taken as a whole. It doesn't mean that every Jorasco healer is a heartless greedhead. But it doesn't give any innate reason for them not to be. Jorasco healers don't choose to become healers because of their empathy or sympathy; it's a family business that plays off of the innate magical gift of their bloodline, which happens to be healing. SOME of them may be altruistic and kind; Jode from The Dreaming Dark seems like a good guy, for all that he's not actively working for his house. Some may feel that their gift of healing is a gift given to help those in need... though if so, they may quit the business to do charitable works for the Silver Flame or Boldrei. In any case, it's not a requirement. And again, I didn't see anything in that scene in the Pit suggesting that the Jorasco workers would torture humans or halflings; they were conducting research on creatures that they considered to be beasts. Sure, we know that trolls are fully sentient - but given that they eat people and didn't speak a language the people are the Pit understood, is it really much stranger than humans experimenting on chimps?
Thorn herself talks about using the services of Vadalis or Lyrandar if they reach Tantamar. Presumably, she expects to pay for these services - she doesn't think that they'll help her out of the goodness of her heart. But even with her own growing distrust of the houses, they are still a part of mundane existence; you want to go somewhere, you use an airship or a lightning rail. They aren't all out to overthrow the Five Nations or anything like that - but come up with a competing airship business and see how friendly Lyrandar is.
As a side note, the Jorasco leader in the Pit scene is a Nosomantic Chiurgeon, mentioned in Dragonmarked - the branch of Jorasco that studies diseases and negative uses of healing. The effect he uses on the troll is a tailored disease... and if Breland goes to war with Droaam, a tailored bioweapon that inhibits the regeneration of trolls or lycanthropes could be a vital tool! Naturally, such a valuable creation would have a heavy price... but I suspect that under those circumstances, few Brelish shed a tear for the trolls harmed in developing it.
Nonetheless: as someone who's always frustrated that we only see the negative side of the Silver Flame, I am at fault for showing the darker side of the houses without presenting the balancing factors. Drix was intended to show a different face of House Cannith - that it's not all about Merrix scheming in his secret forgehold - but I realize that this may not come across. And if you do look to The Dreaming Dark, Lei is a proud member of her house who's driven from it by Merrix. If you consider her an example of a house heir, she's certainly a good person... overall, I'd say, more altruistic than Daine. I make Merrix a fairly suspicious character, but historically we've got Aaren as a counterpoint. I don't see the houses as a force for good in the world, but that doesn't make everyone in them evil.
As always, this is MY view; if you've got House Jorasco as a sympathetic and charitable force in your Eberron, more power to you!
Without such examples of white, the players most often assume something is villainous.
Of course, just to take the side of the Traveler... One reason I don't present the houses as virtuous is because I don't believe the houses ARE virtuous. I'm always championing the Church of the Silver Flame when it is depicted in a negative light because at its foundation, the Church is an altruistic organization devoted to charitable works and defending the innocent, and that's why most of its members are drawn to it. The houses are nothing of the sort; they are businesses that seek to prosper, and who have historically done that by wielding monopolistic power to crush competition. They have been held in check by the greater power of Galifar, and that power no longer exists. Taking House Jorasco, they are the House of Healing - but they heal in exchange for gold. This is how they prosper; as called out on page 216 of the ECG, "House Jorasco has little sense of charity, and its mercenary approach to what some regard as indispensable acts of mercy engenders a fair amount of resentment." And again, historically, the house have acting ruthlessly to protect their monopolies. Are they villainous? Not necessarily. They aren't out to conquer the world (probably). But they are, by and large, ruthless profiteers.
Now, that's the houses taken as a whole. It doesn't mean that every Jorasco healer is a heartless greedhead. But it doesn't give any innate reason for them not to be. Jorasco healers don't choose to become healers because of their empathy or sympathy; it's a family business that plays off of the innate magical gift of their bloodline, which happens to be healing. SOME of them may be altruistic and kind; Jode from The Dreaming Dark seems like a good guy, for all that he's not actively working for his house. Some may feel that their gift of healing is a gift given to help those in need... though if so, they may quit the business to do charitable works for the Silver Flame or Boldrei. In any case, it's not a requirement. And again, I didn't see anything in that scene in the Pit suggesting that the Jorasco workers would torture humans or halflings; they were conducting research on creatures that they considered to be beasts. Sure, we know that trolls are fully sentient - but given that they eat people and didn't speak a language the people are the Pit understood, is it really much stranger than humans experimenting on chimps?
Thorn herself talks about using the services of Vadalis or Lyrandar if they reach Tantamar. Presumably, she expects to pay for these services - she doesn't think that they'll help her out of the goodness of her heart. But even with her own growing distrust of the houses, they are still a part of mundane existence; you want to go somewhere, you use an airship or a lightning rail. They aren't all out to overthrow the Five Nations or anything like that - but come up with a competing airship business and see how friendly Lyrandar is.
As a side note, the Jorasco leader in the Pit scene is a Nosomantic Chiurgeon, mentioned in Dragonmarked - the branch of Jorasco that studies diseases and negative uses of healing. The effect he uses on the troll is a tailored disease... and if Breland goes to war with Droaam, a tailored bioweapon that inhibits the regeneration of trolls or lycanthropes could be a vital tool! Naturally, such a valuable creation would have a heavy price... but I suspect that under those circumstances, few Brelish shed a tear for the trolls harmed in developing it.
Nonetheless: as someone who's always frustrated that we only see the negative side of the Silver Flame, I am at fault for showing the darker side of the houses without presenting the balancing factors. Drix was intended to show a different face of House Cannith - that it's not all about Merrix scheming in his secret forgehold - but I realize that this may not come across. And if you do look to The Dreaming Dark, Lei is a proud member of her house who's driven from it by Merrix. If you consider her an example of a house heir, she's certainly a good person... overall, I'd say, more altruistic than Daine. I make Merrix a fairly suspicious character, but historically we've got Aaren as a counterpoint. I don't see the houses as a force for good in the world, but that doesn't make everyone in them evil.
As always, this is MY view; if you've got House Jorasco as a sympathetic and charitable force in your Eberron, more power to you!
Show
Yeah, the fact that Houses are not forces for good, but simple businesses, makes it hard to off-set the excesses by characters doing the opposite. Just like with the Silver Flame, it is also very easy to make people belief the big cooperate businesses are evil and corrupt, especially amongst gamers, who tend to contain a large percentage of people with a healthy dosis of suspicion against world wide organizations ;)
Mind you, you are the one depicting the scene in the research facility as evil ;) Granted, you show it from the perspective of Thorn, but even her dagger (and for shame on me, I cannot remember his name at the moment) does not protest overly much. As for it being justified considering the threat of Droaam, that is a rather slippery slope and one Haendryth (my PC, an adopted member of House Phiarlann) would love to have with those halflings and Thorn ;) Then again, our group has a strong opinion on fair bussiness practices ;)
Mind you, you are the one depicting the scene in the research facility as evil ;) Granted, you show it from the perspective of Thorn, but even her dagger (and for shame on me, I cannot remember his name at the moment) does not protest overly much. As for it being justified considering the threat of Droaam, that is a rather slippery slope and one Haendryth (my PC, an adopted member of House Phiarlann) would love to have with those halflings and Thorn ;) Then again, our group has a strong opinion on fair bussiness practices ;)
Show
The scene in the secret facility was a fairly interesting, and I think it's defensible to portray the Dragonmarked Houses in a wary light. There's a serious power vacuum in Khorvaire at the moment, and the Dragonmarked Houses are the most likely candidates to step into that vacuum. The Dragonmarked Houses are insular and hereditary cartels--they have all of the bad qualities of monarchies without much of civic dutifulness. There's every reason to think that the Houses would be in favor of stability through oppression.
None of that has anything to do with the everyday member of the House, who is probably sees themselves as a craftsman just going about their work. But those people are contributing and participating in what the heads of their house are doing, whether they are aware of it or not.
The scene was kind of an awful turning point for my sympathies for Thorn though.
None of that has anything to do with the everyday member of the House, who is probably sees themselves as a craftsman just going about their work. But those people are contributing and participating in what the heads of their house are doing, whether they are aware of it or not.
The scene was kind of an awful turning point for my sympathies for Thorn though.
As for it being justified considering the threat of Droaam...
Show
Oh, I never said it WAS justified by the threat of Droaam; I was simply saying that if war DOES break out, something that could reduce the power of the war trolls and lycanthropes could save thousands of innocent lives. It's unclear what the Pit is for. It's presumably a facility set up by the Twelve, as we see cooperation from Vadalis, Orien, Lyrandar, Jorasco, Deneith and Kundarak (and they may very well have had Cannith involved in its construction, a Sivis message stone set up, and Ghallanda in the kitchen). What we know is:
* They are experimenting on trolls, and studying their flesh and blood.
* The nosomantic chiurgeon has developed a effect (likely a disease) that can inhibit regeneration. This may or may not be something others can replicate.
It could be an effort to produce anti-troll weapons. It could be an attempt to isolate regeneration so it can be magebred into new creatures by Vadalis. It could be an effort to enhance Jorasco healing techniques and to cure, say, cancer or Eberron's version of AIDS - some sort of magic-resistant plague/curse that's continued to elude healers. Perhaps that makes a difference; perhaps the ends can't justify the means.
But let's continue to explore. What makes them evil? Well, they are inflicting unnecessary pain and suffering on the trolls. Just to make it more interesting... what if that pain and suffering ISN'T unnecessary? What if the savants believe that the experience of pain and anger releases chemicals into the blood of the troll that are vital to their work? There's certainly parallels to this in the real world (I'll just point to the dog meat trade as one example, with the understanding that the pain-is-vital aspect is a belief - just as this troll-pain-required could be fact or fiction).
So: let's say that they believe they are on the verge of developing a cheap cure for cancer... but they need to torture trolls to develop it. Clearly a GOOD person still won't condone the torture, and again, this is while it's illegal under the Korth Edicts. But again, given that we are talking about trolls - a race commonly associated with carnivorous violence and a threat to the Five Nations - what sort of breakdown do you see in the Five Nations in terms of troll-sympathizers versus those who want the benefits? How have the Ashbound done in convincing people of the unjust nature of elemental binding?
Just to throw another wrinkle in... how do you suppose they came by their trolls? It's possible that they trollnapped them. But House Tharashk works with the Daughters to engage the services of monstrous mercenaries. And we know the DAUGHTERS are willing to use trolls in unpleasant ways, IE Grist. What if these trolls were actually acquired in cooperation with the Daughters, because they are uncontrollable recidivist killers who kept attacking merchants and other people from the Five Nations in the Great Crag, in spite of orders not to molest these outsiders?
Now, we have no reason to believe that any of these things are true. I'm just saying that in Eberron, any of them COULD be true. It could be that the houses kidnapped the trolls to use to magebreed Deneith supersoldiers, that they are torturing them out of sheer sadism, that the Daughters are furious, and that they helped guide Thorn to the Pit as their agent of vengeance. Or it could be that the houses acquired troll prisoners who were scheduled for Grist Row in their quest to produce a panacea that could end suffering across the Five Nations - and sadly, torture is a requirement. We don't know, and that means Thorn doesn't know either... which to my mind, is part of what makes it Eberron.
* They are experimenting on trolls, and studying their flesh and blood.
* The nosomantic chiurgeon has developed a effect (likely a disease) that can inhibit regeneration. This may or may not be something others can replicate.
It could be an effort to produce anti-troll weapons. It could be an attempt to isolate regeneration so it can be magebred into new creatures by Vadalis. It could be an effort to enhance Jorasco healing techniques and to cure, say, cancer or Eberron's version of AIDS - some sort of magic-resistant plague/curse that's continued to elude healers. Perhaps that makes a difference; perhaps the ends can't justify the means.
But let's continue to explore. What makes them evil? Well, they are inflicting unnecessary pain and suffering on the trolls. Just to make it more interesting... what if that pain and suffering ISN'T unnecessary? What if the savants believe that the experience of pain and anger releases chemicals into the blood of the troll that are vital to their work? There's certainly parallels to this in the real world (I'll just point to the dog meat trade as one example, with the understanding that the pain-is-vital aspect is a belief - just as this troll-pain-required could be fact or fiction).
So: let's say that they believe they are on the verge of developing a cheap cure for cancer... but they need to torture trolls to develop it. Clearly a GOOD person still won't condone the torture, and again, this is while it's illegal under the Korth Edicts. But again, given that we are talking about trolls - a race commonly associated with carnivorous violence and a threat to the Five Nations - what sort of breakdown do you see in the Five Nations in terms of troll-sympathizers versus those who want the benefits? How have the Ashbound done in convincing people of the unjust nature of elemental binding?
Just to throw another wrinkle in... how do you suppose they came by their trolls? It's possible that they trollnapped them. But House Tharashk works with the Daughters to engage the services of monstrous mercenaries. And we know the DAUGHTERS are willing to use trolls in unpleasant ways, IE Grist. What if these trolls were actually acquired in cooperation with the Daughters, because they are uncontrollable recidivist killers who kept attacking merchants and other people from the Five Nations in the Great Crag, in spite of orders not to molest these outsiders?
Now, we have no reason to believe that any of these things are true. I'm just saying that in Eberron, any of them COULD be true. It could be that the houses kidnapped the trolls to use to magebreed Deneith supersoldiers, that they are torturing them out of sheer sadism, that the Daughters are furious, and that they helped guide Thorn to the Pit as their agent of vengeance. Or it could be that the houses acquired troll prisoners who were scheduled for Grist Row in their quest to produce a panacea that could end suffering across the Five Nations - and sadly, torture is a requirement. We don't know, and that means Thorn doesn't know either... which to my mind, is part of what makes it Eberron.
The scene was kind of an awful turning point for my sympathies for Thorn though.
I'm curious - do you mean that you felt more sympathetic towards Thorn at this point, or that this scene turned you away from her?
ShowThe scene in the secret facility was a fairly interesting, and I think it's defensible to portray the Dragonmarked Houses in a wary light. There's a serious power vacuum in Khorvaire at the moment, and the Dragonmarked Houses are the most likely candidates to step into that vacuum. The Dragonmarked Houses are insular and hereditary cartels--they have all of the bad qualities of monarchies without much of civic dutifulness. There's every reason to think that the Houses would be in favor of stability through oppression.
None of that has anything to do with the everyday member of the House, who is probably sees themselves as a craftsman just going about their work. But those people are contributing and participating in what the heads of their house are doing, whether they are aware of it or not.
To run a bussiness, you also need to have customers, and unlike monarchies, ranking tends to be granted based on merrits more than on birth.
Well the latter part of this sentence is objectively not true. In order to even be a member of the Dragonmarked House, you almost always must be part of the right bloodline. Power is concentrated in families. That's not to say that they're going to let a talented person go to waste, or that a lazy and talentless family member isn't going to be marginalized, but the Dragonmarked Houses are definitely not meritocracies.
They're not exactly corporations, but I don't follow what about the analogy to mega-corporations is troubling. I'm sure in any House (or megacorp) there are many decent and normal people who are just trying to live their lives. But as organizations, they have no real overriding goals, principles, or allegiences other than profit.
I'm curious - do you mean that you felt more sympathetic towards Thorn at this point, or that this scene turned you away from her?
Show
Um, emphatically the latter. I mean the Thorn stories have always been pretty hard-boiled--she's a spy and assassin. But she seemed particularly cynical and cold in that scene. Arguably she felt justified in unleashing the trolls on the people experimenting on them, because using trolls as lab rats is monstrous. However, she didn't really have any interest in helping the trolls for their own sake either. She was using them as a diversion just to cover herself, treating the lives of the trolls and their oppressors both as just tools. Unleashing all that killing didn't really serve any of her own goals.
One of the things I rather like about Eberron is that it seems impossible to ignore the "personhood" of nonhumans (and non-demihumans). Obviously Warforged are an example of "people" who do not resemble anything we would normally define as a person. Their personhood is undeniable, as is that of orcs and goblins. And so it's also impossible, ethically speaking, to deny that gnolls, medusas, harpies, trolls, giants, and other "monsters" are also people.
The average Khorvarian might not see it that way, but Thorn isn't the average Khorvarian. She has a history of allying with "monsters". So it was kind of cutting to see that.
One of the things I rather like about Eberron is that it seems impossible to ignore the "personhood" of nonhumans (and non-demihumans). Obviously Warforged are an example of "people" who do not resemble anything we would normally define as a person. Their personhood is undeniable, as is that of orcs and goblins. And so it's also impossible, ethically speaking, to deny that gnolls, medusas, harpies, trolls, giants, and other "monsters" are also people.
The average Khorvarian might not see it that way, but Thorn isn't the average Khorvarian. She has a history of allying with "monsters". So it was kind of cutting to see that.
Power is concentrated in families. That's not to say that they're going to let a talented person go to waste, or that a lazy and talentless family member isn't going to be marginalized, but the Dragonmarked Houses are definitely not meritocracies.
Right. Within the family, you rise or fall based on your talent. Merrix wouldn't be in the position he's in if he wasn't a briliant artificer and strategist. But if you aren't part of the family, you're always going to hit a glass ceiling... though what was called out in Dragonmarked was that if you're incredibly talented and of the right race, they might try to marry you into the house.
The average Khorvarian might not see it that way, but Thorn isn't the average Khorvarian. She has a history of allying with "monsters". So it was kind of cutting to see that.
Yes, I can understand this. Sorry to disappoint!
As I've already said, I love the "Kiss" and would like to know if you've had any other ideas about strange, and "poetic" customs, the Eladrin have, that didn't make it into the book?