Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lord_zzyzx Jun 14, 2008 11:56:47	I am troubled with reconcilling the presence of the WF in The Mournland. Much of the flavor of the Mournland, IMHO, is that beyond the Salvador Dali-esque landscape, there is a large contingent of WF planning world domination. I have always assumed that the inhospitable nature of The Mournland precludes "fleshies" from reclaiming the kingdom of Cyre. While the natural immunities of the WF make (correction: made) them particularly adapted to the harsh environs of The Mournland. I reread the ECS section on The Mournland and it doesn't directly speak to this point. However, through inference it seems legitimate. In short, if the WF are on equally footing with some to the other races (ie dwarves) why are they able to survive in The Mournland where other races can't? Conversely, if any race can survive in The Mournland because the ECS doesn't explicitly state that the WF survive there because of the immunities, why don't other nations invade. For instance, the Cyran exhiles in Breland might have some opinions on the matter. As would the Cyran exhiles living in Q'barra.
#2 RedRider Jun 14, 2008 12:08:54	It's something a lot of people miss, but the ECS mentions that natural healing and "Conjuration (Healing)" effects do not function in the Mournland. So soldiers (and adventurers!) can't knock back a Cure Light Wounds potion to heal up after a fight. Warfroged can still repair themselves and others with the Craft Skills and the Repair Damage spells. So they can get into fights with just about as much ease as they could in the outside world. Also note that Warforged are not as reliant on supplies or supply lines as fleshy races. They can go without food, but a unit of soldiers is going to be worried when the grain wagons don't turn up (Thanks to that Carcass Crab that crawled into the road last week) and adventurers are going to be in deep trouble when they open up their haversacks and discovers their water rations have mysteriously transmuted into slag iron for some inexplicable reason.
#3 Edymnion Jun 14, 2008 12:56:53	Exactly. Almost all forms of healing, both magical and mundane (and in my game, *ALL* forms, I don't allow the various loophole cheats) simply do not work. Every little cut and scratch adds up until they kill you. Warforged don't have that problem, a simple repair check or repair X damage spell, and they're backup to full. And like RedRider said, they aren't dependant on food and water like the fleshies, so there are no supply lines that can be cut by the Mournland monsters. All of the unnatural forces that make the Mournlands so lethal for humanoids simply don't apply to the Warforged, hence why the Lord of Blades is building his army there. The terrain itself is the best defense he could ask for.
#4 lord_zzyzx Jun 14, 2008 13:52:43	I did overlook the healing disparity, and agree that is a significant advantage. Exactly. All of the unnatural forces that make the Mournlands so lethal for humanoids simply don't apply to the Warforged, hence why the Lord of Blades is building his army there. The terrain itself is the best defense he could ask for. Which unnatural forces specifically apply to humaniods that do not apply to the WF?
#5 RedRider Jun 14, 2008 14:07:49	Which unnatural forces specifically apply to humaniods that do not apply to the WF? Mainly it's the healing thing. But The Mournland is the best excuse there is for the GM to throw weird magical disasters at you like: -Illusions where your comerade's bodies are slolwy picked apart, as if by torturers, leaving gaping open wounds that weep blood. -A column of zombies marching in a lurching gait, flying Thrane's flags and bearing rotted coffins upon their shoulders. -A sudden rainstorm fills a free-standing area of open land with a column of rainwater a quarter of a mile across and twenty feet deep. -The upleasant discovery that the town you've been walking through is filled with clear, odourless, slow-acting poison gas. Some, like the former two are going to be a problem for anyone, a nuisance for PCs, danger for warforged and human soldiers alike and could easily stop a supply wagon. The latter two, however, are more easily survivable by warforged. In fact, it's pretty much their survivability advantage that helps them cope with the unnatural effects of The Mournland.
#6 lord_zzyzx Jun 14, 2008 15:11:07	In fact, it's pretty much their survivability advantage that helps them cope with the unnatural effects of The Mournland. Unfortunately it is precisely that survivability, as reflected in their immunities, that is absent in the WF under 4E. With the equalization of characters, an army of dwarves could survive The Mournland. The healing thing aside.
#7 RedRider Jun 14, 2008 15:45:05	Well, if we're moving onto 4E warforged concerns... -Can an army of dwarves go without food and water indefinitely? -Can they hide in a river for a week while beings of green fire and pure rage tear apart a town? -Can an army of warforged be struck down by an army of mutants, and still recover some of their number when their allies come to check on them? -Can dwarves sit awake every night, huddled in a burned out building, watching the doorway for nameless monsters from beyond mortal comprehension? (Well, elves could. But they need to rest every day, unlike warforged who can still only be put to sleep by magic or poison.) With the new ability for warforged to be poisoned, yes, some of the unnatural horrors are better faced with dwarves, but in many respects warforged are free from some of the problems that plague other races. Unlike a dwarf, a warforged is never going to have to think "Do I want to starve for another three days or do I want to eat these plants which, for all I know, could turn to venomous snakes in my stomach?" An army of Dwarves could survive in the Mournland, but not as long as an army of Warforged, who can live there indefinitely since they don't have to worry about food, water and nightmarish sleep.
#8 lord_zzyzx Jun 14, 2008 16:56:09	Redrider, these are all fine points and I agree. There is, however, the recent DDI article states "you don't need to eat, drink, and breathe, but this doesn't render you immune to any effect." Facially, it appears that the WF would drown in the deluge of rain you described, and could starve to death. In our campaign we are discussing disregarding this contradictory statement, and restoring the 3E concepts. In which case, your points are completely valid. However, by cannon, the WF would succumb to The Mournlands like everyone else.
#9 sigma34561 Jun 14, 2008 17:47:22	If your offended by stuff, dont read this.... Show This is the reason they made fourth edition. People read something, and then take it literaly, or in the most assenine fashion. Too bad nothing is truly idiot proof.
#10 shadowstk Jun 14, 2008 17:55:31	As Sigma has said, it has been clarified by WotC and Keith Baker that the line "but this doesn't render you immune to any effect" is meant to only apply to combat effects. This means that while you can stay awake indefinitely and stay underwater for as long as you want, you can still be affected by the wizards Sleep spell or damaged by a Bugbears Strangle attack.
#11 lord_zzyzx Jun 14, 2008 18:25:50	If your offended by stuff, dont read this.... Show This is the reason they made fourth edition. People read something, and then take it literaly, or in the most assenine fashion. Too bad nothing is truly idiot proof.
#12 ultimatecalibur Jun 14, 2008 20:59:38	Here. I'd just like to note that I confered with folks at WotC designed and received confirmation that "Warforged do not eat, drink, or breathe, but this does not render you immune to any effect" is supposed to refer specifically to combat effects or conditions. So you do not suffer from the environmental threats of starvation, thirst, or suffocation described on page 159 of the DMG. However, when a bugbear strangler uses his "strangle" ability, the fact that you "don't breathe" doesn't change anything; he's still crushing your neck. So what it should really have said is: "Warforged are never affected by the conditions of starvation, thirst, or suffocation, as described on page 159 of the DMG. All combat effects affect them normally, even if the flavor suggests that breathing or drinking is involved."
#13 Edymnion Jun 14, 2008 21:26:41	All that aside, he's still right. Warforged lost the whole healing resistance, they apparently have lost the ability to benefit from repair checks, they have basically lost their edge that makes them capable of surviving in the Mournlands almost entirely. In 4e, the Lord of Blades cannot be raising an army in the Mournlands, simply because 4e Warforged would die just as horrible of a death in the Mournlands as anybody else would.
#14 kalanth Jun 14, 2008 21:39:50	All that aside, he's still right. Warforged lost the whole healing resistance, they apparently have lost the ability to benefit from repair checks, they have basically lost their edge that makes them capable of surviving in the Mournlands almost entirely. In 4e, the Lord of Blades cannot be raising an army in the Mournlands, simply because 4e Warforged would die just as horrible of a death in the Mournlands as anybody else would. Even with the better write up, those are (likely) still not the Eberron Warforged. I have a player using a Warforged Warlock at the moment and we ventured into the Mournland. While I would not allow any flesh based PC to use Second Wind or Healing Surges I did allow the forged to do so. Pull that trick on new to Eberron but 4e rules lawyers and there might be an issue, but I used it against players that were well versed in Eberron and so there were no issues with the house rule.
#15 Arcane_Guyver Jun 15, 2008 12:00:22	The 4ECS isn't out yet, so there haven't been any mention (or possibly thought) by WotC about corner cases like the Mournland in 4e. But before we go on and grant Warforged an ability that makes them superior to everyone else in that specific region, we should probably apply the same consideration to the Mournland that has been used on the Planes. Specifically, if adventuring there is going to be that much of a pain, requiring untold amounts of preperation and such environmental hostility that most PCs shouldn't be able to make it out alive, why is it even in the game? I propose that the lack of natural healing business be dropped for 4e. It'll still be hellish to travel through - lack of food, water, and the difficulty of finding any rest in a place festering with wild magic and predators who do not sleep - but it won't require rule loopholes to make good adventures and stories told there possible. You could even flavor it so wounds acquired in the Mournland may heal physically, but you still feel them until you leave, making the journey that much less pleasant for living beings (while warforged might not register this discomfort, at least in the same way).
#16 Nived Jun 15, 2008 12:22:05	All that needs to be written into the 4th edition campaign guide is that "Living constructs are immune to the effects of the mourning" and there you'd have your 'mechanical' reason.
#17 Edymnion Jun 15, 2008 15:09:20	Specifically, if adventuring there is going to be that much of a pain, requiring untold amounts of preperation and such environmental hostility that most PCs shouldn't be able to make it out alive, why is it even in the game? IMO, it should be there for no other reason than to remind the PCs that the world does not revolve around them, there are some things they just can't do, and it doesn't matter how much they want the impossible, sometimes they just plain can't have it.
#18 EscherEnigma Jun 15, 2008 15:58:07	Part of the problem with the planes in 3rd was that some of them were just boring. Most of the elemental planes were fairly featureless, and there was no reason to go there and nothing to be done there. It was never really the danger of the planes that made them bad adventuring locations, it was the fact that they were boring adventuring locations. How does that relate to the mournland? It doesn't, actually. The mournland was a part of Eberron's history and future, and while dangerous was never impossible to adventure in. With the changes in healing I doubt that all healing will be banned as it was before, but I imagine they're going to do something. And I figure that warforged are still going to be immune to it. So the mournland will remain, and will still be dangerous for everyone, just not quite *as* dangerous for warforged. Or at least, thats my take on it.
#19 octaviusiii Jun 16, 2008 0:28:26	IMO, it should be there for no other reason than to remind the PCs that the world does not revolve around them, there are some things they just can't do, and it doesn't matter how much they want the impossible, sometimes they just plain can't have it. I agree. One of the things I like about hostile environments is that they require a lot of preparation, and one misstep in such a place could lead to death. I wish I could have gone on a plane-hopping adventure (high-level issues aside) just to have fun finding ways to survive in the hostile places, and then actually doing it. Life in space is like this; why not the Mournlands? Or the planes?
#20 Arcane_Guyver Jun 16, 2008 2:42:33	IMO, it should be there for no other reason than to remind the PCs that the world does not revolve around them... Interesting. This really seems counter to the 'PCs as main characters' shtick that I always felt drove Eberron. Part of the problem with the planes in 3rd was that some of them were just boring. Most of the elemental planes were fairly featureless, and there was no reason to go there and nothing to be done there. It was never really the danger of the planes that made them bad adventuring locations, it was the fact that they were boring adventuring locations. I don't have any actual quotes on me, but yes, boring and bland were some of the problems of the 3e planes. Being overly difficult to get to and actually traverse was another. Hence, the planes have been opened up for low-level play in 4e. This is relevant to the Mournland because the Mournland works very much like a plane in 3e; the rules of reality are radically altered, and instead of hazards like no oxygen or huge fields of lava, we've got a place that makes healing an absolute pain in the ass. Looking back at the ECS, I just realized that the limitations on healing weren't even included originally; the Mournlands were hazardous due to the lack of food, water, and tons of powerful creatures wandering the area.
#21 Ra-Tiel Jun 16, 2008 10:49:55	All that aside, he's still right. Warforged lost the whole healing resistance, they apparently have lost the ability to benefit from repair checks, they have basically lost their edge that makes them capable of surviving in the Mournlands almost entirely. In 4e, the Lord of Blades cannot be raising an army in the Mournlands, simply because 4e Warforged would die just as horrible of a death in the Mournlands as anybody else would. Considering that we know nothing about the 4E mournland, that Hellcow has already stated that a warforged can still repair himself (although now it's rather a roleplaying thing that describes the beneficial effects of an extended rest instead of a mechanical dicatate), and that numerous effects have already been listed that still do not affect warforged, your whole conclusion is flawed, fallacious, and horribly shortsighted. Try again, please. :P
#22 malicant Jun 16, 2008 11:03:42	All that aside, he's still right. Warforged lost the whole healing resistance, they apparently have lost the ability to benefit from repair checks, they have basically lost their edge that makes them capable of surviving in the Mournlands almost entirely. In 4e, the Lord of Blades cannot be raising an army in the Mournlands, simply because 4e Warforged would die just as horrible of a death in the Mournlands as anybody else would. Why would a Warforged die in the Mournlands? I really do not understand this "Warforged nerfed" scare and especially in this thread it is becoming very, very silly. We don't even know what exactly will be the impact of the Mournland in 4E. I can easily imagine that characters can't use Healing Surges and don't benefit from extended rests, unless they are undead or constructs or some weird-ass abomination. Booya! Homerun for team Warforged.
#23 Edymnion Jun 16, 2008 11:39:39	Interesting. This really seems counter to the 'PCs as main characters' shtick that I always felt drove Eberron. Oh, the story revolves around the PCs, yes. But the world doesn't. If the PCs are lvl 1 and decide to sail to Argonessa, I'm not going to hide all the dragons just because they're not a high enough level to be able to fight them. Whats going on in the world is going on in the world, if the PCs are there or not. Things aren't going to come to a screeching halt just because a band of lvl 1 missfit adventurers walks up. Why would a Warforged die in the Mournlands? Because they'd be just like everybody else, and everybody else that fights stupid and doesn't know when to run away dies in the Mournlands. We don't even know what exactly will be the impact of the Mournland in 4E. Except that we know what the Mournlands are supposed to do, and frankly, I do not see changing any part of the setting because it doesn't fit with the new rules as being a good thing. But then, I already don't see 4e WF as good things, especially since the designer commentary basically ruled out any chance of them ever having composite plating as a racial ability.
#24 Ra-Tiel Jun 16, 2008 11:50:29	Why would a Warforged die in the Mournlands? I really do not understand this "Warforged nerfed" scare and especially in this thread it is becoming very, very silly. We don't even know what exactly will be the impact of the Mournland in 4E. I can easily imagine that characters can't use Healing Surges and don't benefit from extended rests, unless they are undead or constructs or some weird-ass abomination. Booya! Homerun for team Warforged. I can imagine the 4E Mournland having a negative effect similar to "an extended rest in the Mournland does not restore characters to full hit points, but merely restores their daily supply of healing surges". This way the characters' abilities in combat would not be that crippled (as most encounters are built with Second Wind in mind), yet being forced to spend 2 or 3 healing surges in the morning to get to "full hit points" is a severe drawback that shouldn't be underestimated.
#25 Ra-Tiel Jun 16, 2008 12:02:45	[...] But then, I already don't see 4e WF as good things, especially since the designer commentary basically ruled out any chance of them ever having composite plating as a racial ability. I think that's been done to death by Hellcow in his blog. Forcing a character at first level to spend one of his feats on his armor was a bad design decision to start with. Not only does that make all warforged fighters, knights, or paladins the same (some weapon and adamantine body), but also messes the equipment rules up in a very horrible way. No level 1 character is supposed to be running around with an adamantine full plate. Also, what's hindering you from explaining it in a flavorful way (similar to Hellcow) that all warforged are actually created with a given suit of armor already attached, and refrain from shedding it because for them it's not only a piece of armor, but their own skin? Again you're grasping for straws: "It's bad because I want it to be bad".
#26 malicant Jun 16, 2008 13:06:36	Because they'd be just like everybody else, and everybody else that fights stupid and doesn't know when to run away dies in the Mournlands. Precisely the same situation we had in 3.5E. I still fail to comprehend how Warforged now suck in the Mournlands more than they did before. Except that we know what the Mournlands are supposed to do, and frankly, I do not see changing any part of the setting because it doesn't fit with the new rules as being a good thing. Uh, ok? If even I can come up with an explanation that does not contradict the Mournland effect in less than 5 seconds I still fail to see how Warforged are nerfed, or suck, or anything. Ah, well, whatever, it's not like I'm trying to convince anyone, I just thought you had some arguments beyond "I don't like 4E".
#27 madhouse Jun 16, 2008 14:43:36	Ah, well, whatever, it's not like I'm trying to convince anyone, I just thought you had some arguments beyond "I don't like 4E". Easy, mate. No need to get snarky. :D Personally, I think you've got the right idea, but that's besides the point. Edy may not agree, but so what? I don't agree with Edy on many things, but I can respect Edy's perspective and even take some valuable insight from that perspective. Not that I'm busting your chops or anything; I'd just prefer to see more mutual respect of each others' ideas (or at least security that one's ideas aren't somehow invalidated by the disagreement of another). Cheers!
#28 madhouse Jun 16, 2008 14:58:48	Now that I have that out of my system: I've never really cared for the healing restriction of the Mournland; it always struck me as so ridiculously punishing that no one in their right mind would adventure there. That being said, I still wanted to make the Mournland a place that folks rightfully avoid at all costs, so I just ruled that the threats that inhabit the Mournland are so hostile and lethal that only the hardiest adventurers stand a chance there. So, what about the Warforged, you might ask? I chose the simplest solution: Being constructs (albeit living ones), Warforged are generally ignored by the threats of the Mournland. This doesn't mean that said threat won't destroy a Warforged that attacks it, but it at least gives me a convenient excuse for why the Lord of Blades can establish its enclave in the Mournland without running afoul of the hazards there. Maybe not the most elegant of solutions, but there ya go! :D Cheers!
#29 herogoeth Jun 16, 2008 17:02:49	When we say something got nerfed, we are usually making a colloquial reference to the nerf toy company. Like a baseball bat getting nerfed, turning a tool of hardwood or metal into a fuzzy, ineffective toy meant for children. This analogy doesn't really fit to describe the warforged in 4E. The warforged didn't get nerfed. They got fixed. Now anyone who has been reading my posts knows that I love the Warforged. They are likely my favorite part of Eberron, which is definitely my favorite fantasy setting. The warforged immunities/conditional vulnerabilities/strengths were too complex for a mainstream race, and if handled poorly, these racial qualities made playing considerably less fun for everyone involved. The new 4E warforged racial qualities seem to have streamlined most of the things we love about warforged while making them playable enough that they can be integrated into any campaign, by any DM/Player, any time. Admittedly, I'm as concerned as anyone about preserving the warforged flavor and fluff, which is why threads like this are not only useful but vital. But when I consider the warforged in the Mournland, I'm not going to be asking WoTC for increased power, I'm hoping that they are considerate enough to work in some gimmick that makes the Eberron we know and love continue to make sense. Perhaps rather than attributing special healing rules to warforged and making them more complex, The Mournland will just have a region specific effect that allows only certain creatures (Undead, Constructs, Living Constructs, etc..) to regain all spent healing surges with an extended rest. For all other creatures, only a single Healing surge would be regained per extended rest. And maybe even just that is too much. Perhaps everyone, warforged included, only regains one healing surge a day. The difference being that Warforged can still use their Resolve ability, allowing them to endure the dangers of the mournland without wearing down as much. This allows players to pace themselves, and gives the warforged the ability to endure in the Mournland without making it a place that's not very fun to adventure in.