OK everyone, we need something new to talk about... and disembodies threads aren't helping.... SO i am starting a new thread to ask you, the Public and Fans of this Grand Campaign, this Marvel of ingenuity and imagination...
The reason i say this is not to speculate what will or wont be in the book, but to see what my fellow Eberron Fans want in a new book, that we didn't get in the old, or that we fear we will lose in the translation from old to new... or that we hope they will get right this time... (map scales I'm looking at you)
we have an chance to help shape a game we all love dear and true, to talk about what we need and want to make the game better then ever before... Eberron may be after Forgotten Realms (and it damn better be) and personally I'm glad because we have already shown how the Setting is far from set in stone and more so the contents of the book that let us walk in its world...
Please... Discuss away...
More info on the badguy organizations. (The Aurum in particular). Possibly adventure seed samples for each group.
Tips on how to run/make characters that assist in the themes of Eberron (pulp, intrigue, etc).
They can't do `more' and `more' because they still have to cover everything basic within the physical constraints of a setting book, and they can't make very much stuff different because of no timeline advancement.
It'll be tough for them to make a 4e ECS valuable enough to be worth the rebuy.
:fight!: 
More relative info on the fringe nations.
More info on the badguy organizations. (The Aurum in particular). Possibly adventure seed samples for each group.
Tips on how to run/make characters that assist in the themes of Eberron (pulp, intrigue, etc).
That sounds good to me.
Try to clear up Thrane's reputation -- it's a mostly good place with a few really dark stains.
Try to clear up Karrnath's reputation -- they're an urbane, sophisticated people with a few uncivilized bumpkins in the backwoods.
Aundair could use a little more character. I don't know what's missing, but the place is a bit bland compared to the other nations.
Cyre needs a past, right there in the ECS. The Cyran Who Lost His Homeland is a compelling role, and it's a lot easier to pull off if you know what the homeland was like. (If the ECS is two books, one for DMs and one for Players, "Cyre of the Past" should be a nation entry in the Player's book, and the Mournland should be in the DM's.)
Breland is just right. It's in the Goldilocks Zone.
I think its going to be very hard for there to be significant differences between the 3e and 4e ECS given they've ruled out advancing the timeline.
They can't do `more' and `more' because they still have to cover everything basic within the physical constraints of a setting book, and they can't make very much stuff different because of no timeline advancement.
It'll be tough for them to make a 4e ECS valuable enough to be worth the rebuy.
Personally i don't think they will have that much problem updating the Setting to the Core Rules and Keeping the setting the same... if you really think about it... a change to how Magic casters pick spells isn't that profound after all Magewrights make up the vast majority of Casters next to the Artificer which should get its own update... arcane with Leadership role i hope, no more of this "mystery power source"... and if they change Cleric and Paladin Magic system? who cares? last i checked most churches were run by Adapts and Experts.... i can see issues with the lack of a druid class as that is a Big part of Eberron... those crazy druid sects.... and well Years and Years of Warfare... someone must have come up with a better deathtrap... i mean mouse trap...
what i personally want from a New Eberron Campaign Setting Book:
- Better Maps with a Standardized Scale...
- Chapter Markers
- Airship Layouts and more designs for them... bigger and smaller
- An Artificer Class that doesn't maker you as a Munchkin from day one for playing
- Unique Racial Trees for Races that change drastically from Normal D&D to Eberron... Elves in Eberron don't strike me as tree hungers as they do in normal D&D... and Half-orcs aren't wild and crazy... i can go on...
- a little more about the world OUTSIDE of the 5 nations...
- unique class features/racial features for Different cultures (Valenar elves are different from Breland Elves, Humans from Khorvaire are much diffrent from Humans from both Argonnessen and Sarlona...
Personally i don't think they will have that much problem updating the Setting to the Core Rules and Keeping the setting the same...
I think that Haulbrands' point is that when you're asking for new racial features, more information about other countries, airship layouts, and so on, you need to look at the existing ECS and figure out what they'd take out in order to make room for the new things you want to see. Because the new ECS isn't just an update for people who have been around from day one; it needs to serve as the core foundation book for someone who's never played the setting before and who doesn't own any other book. If it's as large as WotC books get already (which I believe is the case), then if you add in four pages of airship layouts you've got to drop four pages of existing material... what would that be?
... then if you add in four pages of airship layouts you've got to drop four pages of existing material... what would that be?
Optional spell components. Or at least they should rewrite them, because they are pretty useless right now. (I am not sure whether they are 4 pages, though)
Optional spell components. Or at least they should rewrite them, because they are pretty useless right now. (I am not sure whether they are 4 pages, though)
Good call. They are, in fact, only one page. But I agree - I think that's a page that could be better spent.
The monsters included could stand to be more carefully chosen. Daelkyr and ascendant councilors, while important in to the world are unlikely to be encountered by PCs, and can probably be reduced to fluff.
I want more racial diversity. Not much information is given as to how the various nations integrate other races into their society beyond the DMH.
A Talenta that makes more sense. Talenta has militarily powerful and expansionist nations on several borders, no geographic barriers to entry, and still has a unique ecology and independence without central authority? If it seemed newly independent it wouldn't be so bad, but it doesn't feel like it was ever a part of Karrnath or Cyre. It's about as plausible as dinosaurs eating grass... oh, wait...
Karrnath was already named Karrnath after Karrn the Conquerer when it was renamed after Galifar's son Karrn? That seems a little contrived.
A passing mention of how bright/big the moons are would be nice, is Eberron always in full moonlight? Did there use to be a thirteenth month, but no one knows what happened to it?
A Talenta that makes more sense. Talenta has militarily powerful and expansionist nations on several borders, no geographic barriers to entry, and still has a unique ecology and independence without central authority? If it seemed newly independent it wouldn't be so bad, but it doesn't feel like it was ever a part of Karrnath or Cyre.
You've lost me on multiple points.
To begin: "Talenta has militarily powerful and expansionist nations on several borders." I assume that you're talking about Valenar and Karrnath. Now, according to Forge of War (page 26), as of 940 YK the Plains were still claimed by Karrnath. They weren't an independent nation; on the contrary, they weren't even considered to be a nation. It was a part of Karrnath that happened to have some wild halflings running around. And in fact, according to the ECS, prior to the Last War the halflings of the Plains had to pay tribute to the king of Galifar.
Beyond that, it's already been noted multiple times that the population density of Khorvaire is low - that this is where "points of light" comes into Eberron. Karrnath may have had the POWER to conquer the Talenta Plains and force the halflings to speak Karrnathi... but how much effort would it have been, and what would they have gained by doing it? It was already Karrnath on the map. The halflings were paying their king. Why devote a massive amount of military resources to conquering, unifying, and administering savage people who posed no threat?
If you're counting Valenar in the picture, it's even worse. The population of the Talenta Plains is five times that of Valenar... and Valenar itself is already far too much territory for the elves to control. The Valenar are aggressive, but they want a military challenge. What would the elves gain by conquering halflings? Given that there's no strong system of central authority in place, it would be a nightmare to administrate, and the Valenar don't want to be governors - they want to fight. Looking again to Forge of War, page 81 addresses the fact that they "don't even really want the territory they claimed under the Treaty of Thronehold. They simply required a base from which to operate on Khorvaire, and a central location that would convince others to attack them." Hellcow has echoed this, noting that the Valenar dream would be for Karrnath to attack them in Valenar... and that their raiding is both to keep their troops fit and an effort to provoke a response.
The Talenta Plains are newly independent. Their customs haven't changed because Galifar never enforced its CUSTOMS on the people of the plains. Like Droaam in Breland, the Talenta Plains were a backwater claimed by one of the Five Nations but never actively colonized by humans.
It's about as plausible as dinosaurs eating grass... oh, wait...
So... highly plausible?
What lacks believability for me regarding Talenta is three-fold.
First of all, even if there was no wholesale acculturation of Talenta, it is not feasible that there would be absolutely no expansion into the Talenta Plains on the part of Karrnath and Cyre during its thousands of years of occupation. Either the halflings resisted human incursion more ferociously than is currently portrayed or a few scattered roads and abandoned settlements should be added to provide the sense that humans once existed there.
The current Talenta/Karrnathi border seems arbitrary. From the map it looks like a line through the middle of supposably arable land with no distinguishing features. Did they just plop down a big fence with occasional "No Trespassing" signs?
Thirdly why do dinosaurs exist solely on the Talenta Plains and not spread to surrounding areas with similar environs? It runs counter to how ecologies behave. There should at least also be dinosaurs in Karrnath.
Talenta easily has the potential for an old west feel. Human ranchers having difficulty with the native Injuns (err, halflings). Ghost towns could litter the Plains casualties of the Last War or halfling raids. I'd like to see this avenue explored.
My point is that it's all a question of how densely you populate Karrnath as it gets close to the border. Just by the maps in the ECS, the closest Karrnathi settlement to the border of the Plains is still almost 100 miles away from that actual border. Looking at the map of the ECS, I'd assume that the vast bulk of the population of Karrnath lives west of Vulyar. Again, when you consider the low population numbers, it's reasonable to assume that the people of Galifar would huddle relatively close together - putting the major populations around Thronehold. Same principle as Droaam once being part of Breland on the maps, but Breland never actually having settlers in Droaam or the Marches... because they never needed to go that far to find open land. I'd assume that Vulyar was the de facto eastern border... with Karrnath claiming the eastern lands out of imperial pique.
Meanwhile, the Talenta Plains are hardly inviting territory. "The Talenta Plains are vast and wild... the wilderness can be dangerous, with predatory dinosaurs, Valenar elf marauders, and other threats ranging from the mundane to the supernatural." If we haven't even fully settled eastern present-day Karrnath, why press into barbaric dinosaur country?
With that said, I've got no problem with the idea of their being some ghost towns from people who tried; all I'm saying is that it doesn't surprise me that the land isn't littered with them. Western Breland, eastern Karrnath, the Eldeen Reaches (which used to be "Aundair") - there's a lot of open frontier land just in the modern borders, let alone the old.
Thirdly why do dinosaurs exist solely on the Talenta Plains and not spread to surrounding areas with similar environs?
They don't exist solely in the Plains. Check under the heading "Dinosaurs" in the ECS:
Dinosaurs are widespread on Eberron, particularly in Xen'drik, Argonnessen, Q'barra, and the Talenta Plains.
They are especially common in Q'barra and the Plains - in part, I would imagine, because the two have similar environments - but I'd assume that you can also find dinosaurs everywhere from southern Karrnath to Breland. "Particularly" doesn't mean "only"; it simply means that they have thrived there.
This divergence could also be explained by the presence of the Dhakaani empire in the heartland of Khorvaire. Presumably the Dhakaani - who at their height may have achieved a greater population density than humanity has - would have eliminated creatures they considered a threat. I'm 90% sure I've read somewhere that the lizardfolk were originally spread further west until the Dhakaani drove them east and into Q'barra. So it may be that there used to be as many dinosaurs in Breland as in the plains - but that they were exterminated by the goblins who lived in that land.
In any case, they aren't solely confined to the plains.
It runs counter to how ecologies behave.
I like logic with my fantasy, but I think if you try to push it too hard, things are simply going to break down. The very concept that you could have a world with as many intelligent creatures as the MMs present is mind boggling. The impact of some of the magical abilities of some creatures would be huge. On top of that, you have the fact that this is a world with magic, manipulative dragons and demons, manifest zones and planar convergences, and many other forces that we simply don't see at work in our world. So I certainly see your point, and I don't disagree with it - but unless it's so illogical as to completely break a story, it doesn't worry me too much.
I think that Haulbrands' point is that when you're asking for new racial features, more information about other countries, airship layouts, and so on, you need to look at the existing ECS and figure out what they'd take out in order to make room for the new things you want to see. Because the new ECS isn't just an update for people who have been around from day one; it needs to serve as the core foundation book for someone who's never played the setting before and who doesn't own any other book. If it's as large as WotC books get already (which I believe is the case), then if you add in four pages of airship layouts you've got to drop four pages of existing material... what would that be?
things to remove and/or simplify
- Region of Origin in the Character Races Section, this can been simplified and move to the Geography section...
- Since Action Points are going Core and are changing thats one page you can lose...
- Outsiders in Eberron, in the Magic Chapter. This information is Neat and Cool but is present in Monster Manuals Currently and So i would hope in 4E they keep it in the MM and out of the ECS and thats almost 4 pages...
- those are just things on top of my head... with out any understanding of how Magic Items, Magic spells and Feats are changing i can't say if those sections are going to be shorter or longer...
Another Option is the PHB2, we don't yet know how the Players Handbooks that come out each year will relate to the Campaigns coming out each year... where the PHBs will have the Races and Classes for each setting or wither they will have nothing relating to the setting... if they do thats a good size of the book that can be taken out from Domains, Warforged, Shifters, Changlings, Artificers... and if the DMG2 will be released as well, they could put in some of the Special Materials and some Magic Items in them that don't relate too Specifically to an aspect of Eberron (like magic items that enhance dragonmarks)
Some parts of the Eberron Campaign book that we have now are important... and others are not so... they will have to figure out what is what... and i trust them...
I Would Also like to se rules to change the base components of a warforged, like making a warforged with coral plating, or making the base structure out of stabilized Quicksilver, another cool thing.
A Dominion or religion is needed that gives the powers to heal warforged.
Psionics and Incarnum need more clases.
And also The book of nine swords needs to clear some things there is to much likeness between the clases, there are to few, and It would be great if WotC put some atention to the Monk Class and finally gave it more options (we have thousands of martial arts in real life,) really the monk needs some signature power of its own.
On a side note, there is the crazy rumor running around in Forgotten Realms that there will in fact be three books to the FR campaign setting. The specifics are a mystery to me, but supposedly it will have a separate DM's guide to the Realms with all the juicy secrets.
How cool would that be for Eberron?
that would give a players more detail and leave the stuff the DM really only needs to know to the DM...
I 100% encourage this concept
Quileth, you want all that in the Eberron Campaign Setting book?
On a side note, there is the crazy rumor running around in Forgotten Realms that there will in fact be three books to the FR campaign setting. The specifics are a mystery to me, but supposedly it will have a separate DM's guide to the Realms with all the juicy secrets.
How cool would that be for Eberron?
Hhahaha, not really what I want for Eberon is to provide basic rules on changing the plating and the base structure thats all, I just left my anxiety for changes in fourth edition carry me on hahahaha
More Kalastar... I love the Kalastar!
I both agree and disagree; I want more on the Kalashtar, but I want less of the common DM's assumption that "psionics = kalashtar (or the Quori, or the Delkyr's various aberrations) only" mindset I've run across. Even the Hellcow himself has assured me that that mindset isn't the way it's supposed to be, so at least a paragraph or three in the new sourcebook would be nice.
I hope to all of The Sovergin Host that they update the Artificer to 4th Edition and as well make the Racial Talent Trees for the other Eberron Races.
Agreed, and seconded (or thirded, or whatever...)
Other thoughts: Artificer is obvious; there will be a rewrite of the class for 4E in either the ECS or one of the Player's Handbooks. We can probably expect gnomes to be in PH2 before the ECS comes out, as well. I think separate player and DM books for Eberron would be awesome.
Rework the Iconic Monster Section and Continue to give up great "In Eberron" sections of the MM or make this an D&DI add on... this second is kind of worthless and would see better to just list monsters and their actions like Ramses was saying... 1 page to tell us what 4 monsters are like in this world... when that can be done else where and give us more useful information...
to play with the concept of a split book (here that WotC we like the idea of spending more money : ], because it would help us)
[INDENT]things of a Players Guild to Eberron
*Artificer Class
*Races with Eberron-ish Racial "trees" I'm sorry but if they make elves ALL wild and crazy its going to taint my concept of most elves in Eberron... and if the Racial talents are going to focus on this wild wood loving side of them then its going to feel odd to me...
* Brief over view of the Nations and more Detail look at the Non-five nations nations
... things of a Dungeon Masters guild to Eberron
* Playable NPC, Good and Bad...
* More Detailed and Verity of Air ships... Small Sloop like ones and Big Last War Like War frigate... maybe even modified sea vessels that where turned into flying ones in stressful times..
*Monsters Monsters Monsters... and not your MM kind i want my Crazy Quori my insane Daelkyr, dolgaunt and dolgrim.... and a more detailed section of how Iconic that gives them beyond a fluff style but a crunch style like alternative monster attacks and features... that will let my players know "this isn't your grandpa's Grayhawk and your Mommy's Forgotten Realm" but completely optional... my thoughts are if Mind Flayers are from the Plan of Xoriat i want them to be a little more Xoriat'ish...
*Magic Items... since i don't know enough about how they are changing i can't really same much more then they should be here and not there... [/INDENT]
While i don't want new books for everything from the Five Nations to Dragons of Eberron... there are some things that need to be reprinted so they stay in key with everything else... as the Core Campaign book was the first book out and most notedly the most used... it can use a face left in many sections that doesn't really have anything to do with 4th Edition changes...
More inclusive maps with a standardized scale.
Layouts for different Airship designs & layouts for different cars of a Lightning Rail. (Luxury, Steerage, Cargo, etc.) They had these in one of the published adventures and I use them all the time.
An easy to find standardized price chart for travel per mile for both airships and lightning rails.
A graph? or chart? of the different planes/moons and their conterminosity(sp)/phases
I also liked what someone said about cleaning up the image of Thrane and Karrnath.
I'd also like to see more on the villainous organizations. This seems to be a common desire amoung the fanbase. I've always wanted some more tidbits about how the organizations interact with eachother, seeing as most of them are big behind the scenes manipulators. How aware are the Lords of Dust of the Blood of Vol? Do any of the BBEGs know about the Dreaming Dark? Do they use eachother? I could make all this stuff up myself, and most likely will, but it'd be nice to see something from the Wizards about this.
Also,and this may seem WAY out there . . . I'd like to see something about Eberron's moons. I have a feeling they have an important part to play in the destiny of the setting. Inhabitable, maybe. Location of a giant-make spell engine maintained by a surviving clan . .. maybe. Important in the Draconic Prophecy? I think DEFINATELY
I'd like to see:
More inclusive maps with a standardized scale.
Layouts for different Airship designs & layouts for different cars of a Lightning Rail. (Luxury, Steerage, Cargo, etc.) They had these in one of the published adventures and I use them all the time.
An easy to find standardized price chart for travel per mile for both airships and lightning rails.
A graph? or chart? of the different planes/moons and their conterminosity(sp)/phases
DITTO . . .
Players would be best served by a 4E ECS book if it was well organized and easily referenced. All the travelling PCs do in the course of ONE adventure neccessitates easily accessed tables compiled in ONE book. We don't want to have to access three different books to find this info.
We also don't want to have to bring a laptop to the table to access the cosmology tool. We really don't need it to show us when a plane will be coterminous 500 years from now. How many DMs are running campaigns 500 years in Eberron's future? A nice 20 20-50 year spread ought to do it. Either that, or the times when the planes are coterminous could be shortened significantly.
DITTO . . .
Players would be best served by a 4E ECS book if it was well organized and easily referenced. All the travelling PCs do in the course of ONE adventure neccessitates easily accessed tables compiled in ONE book. We don't want to have to access three different books to find this info.
We also don't want to have to bring a laptop to the table to access the cosmology tool. We really don't need it to show us when a plane will be coterminous 500 years from now. How many DMs are running campaigns 500 years in Eberron's future? A nice 20 20-50 year spread ought to do it. Either that, or the times when the planes are coterminous could be shortened significantly.
Doesn't the chart for the coterminous planes have a random start point? There's no reason to take the approach of canonizing exactly when each plane will be coterminous; in fact it hinders the individual DM. The planes are coterminous when a DM needs them to be. The book tells you how long of a window that is, and how long it will be before the plane is coterminous again, but it doesn't give you dates because making a plane coterminous is a DM tool that should be used when appropriate, not when the publishers tell you to use it.
Indexes!
Seriously, though... What I need, on a game-to-game basis is this:
-Encounter Maps. It's fun to set encounters on Airships and Lightning Rails, but there's not a ~lot~ to back those encounters up. Even the Explorer's Handbook only barely fleshes things out. See also: Sharn, the Mournland.
-Character Creation help. I am an Eberron junkie, and I've pulled my play group along for the ride. They all love the flavor, but aren't so dedicated as to digest every last scrap of content. I'd like better (or maybe just easier-to-find) summaries of character options for newer players.
-A more concise Cosmology section. It's cool and all, but it feels like supplemental material.
-An expanded Eberron-specific equipment list. There's a lot of unique goodies in the world, and for players, seeing those options in one place can really spark some creativity
-Support for Investigative Campaigns. Anything from mystery-oriented adventure seeds to better Search/Spot/Perception/Investigate rules.
-Points of Light support. A lot of Eberron material is very generalized - this Sharn district is x% fabric shops, Q'Barra is y% lizardmen. Give me specific districts, towns and villages to work with. (Good D&DI or supplemental material? Could be.)
-Adapted Encounter & Treasure tables. I wouldn't use them myself, but I feel like I'm on a roll and it would help DMs fill out setting-specific encounters on the fly.
As a final note, I've seen a lot of comments regarding an Eberron Player's Handbook and an Eberron DMG. I think that's a brilliant idea.
Assuming the content is there, I will go on the record: I would buy one EDMG for myself and then gift one copy of the EPBH to every player at my table. I would love to be able to hand each of them a book that says "this is our campaign world" without handing them the part of the book that says "and here's all the bad guys, their stats and some other stuff you're not supposed to know...".
More Kalastar... I love the Kalastar!
The kalashtar are why I love Eberron. So definitely like seeing more of them.
ALSO - if kalashtar are in 4ECS (they better!), please spend more time explaining them to new players than the Inspired! Don't add new equipment or rules unless they will really add to the gaming experience! Please playtest things so we don't get stuff like the ultra-broken (and now ultra-nerfed) Weretouched Master!
- A nice table of contents
- No more than 100 pages of rules, dedicated to warforged, changeling, kalashtar, shifter, artificer, magewright, infusions, equipment, vehicles, and Eberron-specific monsters
- A 200-page gazetteer/glossography/encyclopedia of the entire world, including:
- roughly 100 pages on Khorvaire and Aerenal
- roughly 60 pages on Sarlona (mostly Riedra and Adar)
- roughly 20 pages on Argonnessen
- roughly 20 pages on Xen'drik
- the Frostfell entry from Player's Guide to Eberron and a similar entry for the Everice
- a fold-out poster sized map of Khorvaire using a conic projection (or a better one), with random encounter tables on the back for each area (as in, "Breland Mountains", "Talenta Plains", etc.). Make sure the EL's make sense and jive with the general difficulty of the region. Khorvaire will mostly be EL 1-7, Khorvaire wilderness and Xen'drik might be more like 7-17, Sarlona might be around 10-20, and Argonnessen might be 21-30. Also put tables for monthly rainfall and temperature (low/avg/high) for each area for each month).
- a fold-out poster-sized world map combining all the continent maps from the 3.5 ECS, Secrets of Xen'drik, Secrets of Sarlona, Player's Guide to Eberron (the Frostfell map), and Dragons of Eberron, with an Eckert IV projection. On the back, put the random encounter tables for Sarlona, Xen'drik, Argonnessen, Frostfell/Everice, and the oceans, along with weather conditions for each area
- Two single-page polar projection maps of the Frostfell and Everice, respectively
- NO stat blocks other than name, alignment, race, class, religion, loyalty, and then a few short paragraphs of background text (that goes for the rules sections too - no iconics!).
- roughly 100 pages on Khorvaire and Aerenal
- No timeline advancement or major changes to the 3.5 lore - combine and reprint the currently published timelines without embellishments
- A calendar for 998 YK, showing the phases of the moons and planes, possibly with eclipses and occultations noted
- A good index
- Mostly cheap black and white illustration used sparingly, except for the maps and four full color full page pictures
- Hire the guy from the "epic campaign maps" thread that made the satellite-photo-looking maps, to do the maps. At any rate, make sure the artist understands map projections. I have an equirectangular Frostfell map if it helps any.
Basically I want nice big maps with real projections applied, a handful of rules for the races and classes, and tons of fluff glossing over the whole planet.
And if possible, give it the look-and-feel of the 1987 FR Gray Box.
I like the idea of both the PHB and DMG, but the quality and content better be worth shelling out $40+ for both.
what i personally want from a New Eberron Campaign Setting Book:
- Better Maps with a Standardized Scale...
- Chapter Markers
- Airship Layouts and more designs for them... bigger and smaller
- An Artificer Class that doesn't maker you as a Munchkin from day one for playing
- Unique Racial Trees for Races that change drastically from Normal D&D to Eberron... Elves in Eberron don't strike me as tree hungers as they do in normal D&D... and Half-orcs aren't wild and crazy... i can go on...
- a little more about the world OUTSIDE of the 5 nations...
- unique class features/racial features for Different cultures (Valenar elves are different from Breland Elves, Humans from Khorvaire are much diffrent from Humans from both Argonnessen and Sarlona...
What he said.
EK
I do understand the scaling thing between maps, but Wizards did put out that super-high resolution cohesive map of Khovaire, along with lightning rail lines and distance markers between stops. I took it to a Kinko's and had it printed in its native size on high-quality, durable paper and though it wasn't cheap (~$40), the result is a beautiful, crease-free 32"x20" map that feels like an artifact from Eberron itself. I did it over the Christmas holiday, or I might have tried doing it through my college's print shop for cheaper -- didn't think of that until I got back. Other groups might try that too, especially if they know people who work in college libraries (one GM I know who did that got a bunch of city maps printed and laminated basically for free).
And I'm totally behind a unified world map, but I'd like to see it as a PDF with varying levels of information -- PCs generally shouldn't know where the majority of cities on Argonessen are, for example, but a variety of PDFs (or, even cooler, Photoshop files with layers) would cover the groups that decide to start as 1st level barbarians on Argonessen, etc.
Eberron 4ed should be wrote to support the new ed. The frist design move is time line advance they should sneak it back in. The core dragonmarked should never be changed. The religions should not be altered. Nations should have new different fluff. Continents need expanded chapters. I hope races get a lot of info. If they include a Eberron race as PHB2 core, then I hope they add a lesser known race such as Eneko, or half-giant or other psionic race that does not make PHB2. I will for certain find the book having wasted space if it has the full race write up for Gnomes.
Airships, include new designs, and ideas for elemental based creations.
The Artificer don't dumb it down. If it borders the line of "Munchkin" so fricking what. If the class does not border the line then it is a NPC class. ( I hate reading messages on these boards that talk about a game only designers have seen as being broken!)
Why should any one buy a book that virtually no new information? A Retcon will suck! A time line advance is most logical!
So I see no reason why Eberron will not follow the same line of publications (which would include an adventure path starting the same month with the Player's Guide), and with two core products most of what we are asking should be able to fit.
Well since the Forgotten Realms are getting a DM book and a player book I don't see why Eberron can't get the same treatment. It would let us have a book with the artificer and different racial feats and the general crunch needed, and we can have a DM guide giving us all the fluff.
An awesome idea. Imagine how much more fluff and material the ECS could have added to to the book if it could have put all the stuff explaining secrets, hooks, and how to run the game into a separate work.
Distances, prices for services, and the like an also go in the DM book, leaving more room for equipment, feats, and fluff for the Player's.
Well since the Forgotten Realms are getting a DM book and a player book I don't see why Eberron can't get the same treatment. It would let us have a book with the artificer and different racial feats and the general crunch needed, and we can have a DM guide giving us all the fluff.
An awesome idea. Imagine how much more fluff and material the ECS could have added to to the book if it could have put all the stuff explaining secrets, hooks, and how to run the game into a separate work.
Distances, prices for services, and the like an also go in the DM book, leaving more room for equipment, feats, and fluff for the Player's. I would like to see the player's version keep plenty of fluff so players have a idea of what day to day life, and the history of their race/culture is like. Just leave stuff like Kaius actually being a vampire, the true nature of the Blood of Vol, the scehemes of the Dreaming Dark, and how Cardinal Krozen is a sneaky bad guy in the DM book.
I mean, does that mean I can have a balor spawned by Khyber serving a bound rajah of fire and destruction? Of course I'm going to if I want to, but this omission irks me.
- A clear division of player content and DM content. It really took some time for my players to get a sense of belonging and later, involvement, when we started playing in Eberron. The main reason, I think, is that I could not let them read the setting book. There is just too many DM-only secrets scattered all over the book, even in sections that should be "player safe", like Life in Eberron (title?). As it is, I could only let them read the intro, the chapters on races, classes, prestige classes, feats, gear and spells. Pretty dry stuff. So, split the book in two parts: Player stuff, DM stuff (either in one book, or two as has been mentionned). No more obvious pictures of King Kaius III left carelessly lying around (thanks for ruining a great plot, mr. editor).
- More care into the geography and demography of the lands. Not because it should be realistic and as close to our own real world as possible (obviously!), but because it helps with suspension of disbelief. Old geezers like me need that. Questions like "How could such a small population develop such an extensive (and insanely expensive) magic train network?" and like "Did you notice that the entire population of Sharn could fit comfortably into only one of its mile-high towers?" do not help the players to immerse their psyche into the imaginary world, and replies of "hey, it's an imaginary magical world" are just plain lazy.
- A better index. This, I should not even have to mention. If you are serious about speeding up gameplay, an index is one of the simplest way to do it. It helps with game prep and in-game lookups. Especially, include NPCs in this index. Professionally-made books have an index. And do not stop at the core book: Sharn - City of Towers is an extremely difficult book to consult only because it lacks a good index.
- And for crying out loud: poster map. Don't tell me you did not include it in order to lower the price of the book: you printing that map and increasing the price of the book is probably the cheapest way for me to get it. Even if I download it, printing just one copy of it is quite expensive (at the printing shop), or sloppy (home inkjet printer and adhesive tape), or both. I'd rather you sold me one.
Content-wise, I'll read the thread more carefully and post again.
Cheers!
A graph? or chart? of the different planes and their conterminosity(sp)...
Personally, this is something that I hope you WON'T see. I've never liked the existence of the online tool, as it suggests an "official" path for the planes. Speaking personally, this was NEVER my intent for the orbiting planes. Rather, the coterminous and remote periods are toys for each DM to play with. If you have a really cool idea that plays off of Mabar being coterminous, then you should be able to decide that it happens in 998 YK. The ECS sets down how long the period lasts - and how long until it can happen again - but I want you to have the freedom to decide if you want it to occur during your game. Knowing that Plane X being remote does this really cool thing but that it won't happen for ten years seems like a waste.
There are things every Eberron DM gets to decide, such as the cause of the Mourning. Whether or not to activate a coterminous or remote phase is another of those things I'd like to leave to the DM, based on the stories they want to tell.
- Poster map! (Maybe two sides, one of Khorvaire and airship/lightning rail routes, and one of the whole world)
- Artificer class, redone to fit more in line with the 4e roles. I want an artificer who fits into one of the four roles well (controller, maybe), not one who can do everything. Even though this runs counter to his former role as a class that can emulate the spells of every other class and make/use every magic item. I wouldn't mind the artificer still being able to do a lot as long as he's behind the curve in his non-role abilities. If he's a controller, he shouldn't be a better blaster than a warlock or a better healer than a cleric.
- Racial talent trees for all the Eberron races. Maybe unique talent trees for the Eberron version of the PHB races divided up by nation. For example, the Valenar or the Zil gnomes might deserve their own.
- Integration of all the prominent new 4e stuff. Tieflings, eladrin, dragonborn, warlords, warlocks, non-aligned paladins, etc.
- Index!
Of the top of my head, here is my wish list for the Eberron 4th ed campaign book:
- A clear division of player content and DM content. It really took some time for my players to get a sense of belonging and later, involvement, when we started playing in Eberron. The main reason, I think, is that I could not let them read the setting book. There is just too many DM-only secrets scattered all over the book, even in sections that should be "player safe", like Life in Eberron (title?). As it is, I could only let them read the intro, the chapters on races, classes, prestige classes, feats, gear and spells. Pretty dry stuff. So, split the book in two parts: Player stuff, DM stuff (either in one book, or two as has been mentionned). No more obvious pictures of King Kaius III left carelessly lying around (thanks for ruining a great plot, mr. editor).
- A better index. This, I should not even have to mention. If you are serious about speeding up gameplay, an index is one of the simplest way to do it. It helps with game prep and in-game lookups. Especially, include NPCs in this index. Professionally-made books have an index. And do not stop at the core book: Sharn - City of Towers is an extremely difficult book to consult only because it lacks a good index.
- And for crying out loud: poster map. Don't tell me you did not include it in order to lower the price of the book: you printing that map and increasing the price of the book is probably the cheapest way for me to get it. Even if I download it, printing just one copy of it is quite expensive (at the printing shop), or sloppy (home inkjet printer and adhesive tape), or both. I'd rather you sold me one.
Cheers!
Amen, it was hard having DM stuff in the ECS and the players needing the same book for player related stuff. I thought the player's handbook for Eberron would do, it failed miserably. Please have a Eberron DM book and it's own Player's Handbook. We would buy them.
EK
My first thought would be a boxed set.
An Eberron DMG containing all the crunchy bits, nicely cleaned up. I'd prefer it focus on the mechanical bits.
An Eberron Players Book, similar to the "Player's Guide to Eberron", but with some extra sections from the campaign setting that are relevant to the players. Something about half way between a PHB and the Guide.
And another book, The Flavor of Eberron.
What would the Flavor of Eberron be? It would be a book that starts off explaining the Flavor of Eberron, much as the intro section of the campaign setting did. There was quite a bit of houseruling to get a flavor worked for us, and I think a book that focuses on how to get that flavor would be useful to me, and to most DM who haven't handled a pulp game before.
1. More on evil organizations: Emerald Claw and the Aurum mainly. How do they operate? Sample plans. Areas of influence. Assets etc. See the FR setting books on evil organizations for how to do this. Those are quite good.
2. More on societies that have been minimally touched: Zilargo, Mror Holds, Valenar, Aerenal, Lhazar Principalities, Q'barra. Aerenal and Zilargo in particular are VERY different from standard. Describe them in more detail.
3. Better detail on the royal families: The book mentions Boranel's heirs are considered to be inadequate to the task of ruling. Who are they? What did they do why they are believed to be inadequate?
Same with Aundair. As I recall Queen Arula is very protective of her heir. Who is the heir?
Give a family tree for the monarchs crying out loud. Eberron has mass media. This stuff would be well-known. They are written about in the Chronicle. Why is it a secret to the DM and the players? This takes about a page or 2. Aundair and Breland (and Cyre) are the only ones that really matter.
4. Better information on adventuring sites close to home. Why must every ancient ruin be in Xen'Drik?
Cyre for starters. There is almost no information on Cyre before it was destroyed. How about a map of pre-Mournland Cyre? How about information on their royal family, government and people and places of note. It is a lot easier to convey the scope of the destruction to the players if it is clear what it was like before. It has only been 4 years, there are plenty of people alive who remember, why must it be a mystery to the players and the DM? Give us a picture of Metrol before and after. THAT would really hit home.
More information on the Dhakanni empire as well. The ruins are literally everywhere across southern Khorvaire. There is a department devoted to it at Morgrave. The Heirs of Dhakaan maintain the histories to this day. Why too is so little described about it? How was it governed? What did its architecture look like? What was its culture like? C'mon, we have a whole book about Xen'drik way over yonder but nothing on the Dhakanni empire whose ruins are literally below much of modern Khorvaire and which has actual living decendents who have kept records about the old days.
5. Fix the population figures. Multiplying by 5 tends to produce less silly figures. The population cannot be that small on a continent that size. If it really is, say why?
6. Stop soft-pedalling the dirty parts of life in Eberron. That is the best part of the setting.
War is hell, describe it as such. People DIED in the Last War, a LOT of them. Make that clear so that it hits home for the players. Give figures, this serves as background to the players for rp purposed. Probably close to 2 milliong people perished in Cyre on the Day of Mourning and many more afterwards. Likely hundreds of thousands perished of violence, disease and starvation over nearly a hundred years of war. Mention the losses somewhere to bring it home. Mention the economic damage and the refugees too. Again, give figures. This doesn't take much, maybe a page or 3 but it helps to set the mood.
Same with racial issues. Face it, not all races are equal in Eberron despite what the law says. Warforged are clearly second class citizens at best. So are the goblinoids and the shifters. (Very likely the dragon-men and the tieflings too in 4e). They are a roleplaying challenge and many players like the realism. Give them actual social penalties (perhaps penalties to Diplomacy and bonuses to Intimidate perhaps depending on how 4e does these skills) and write it into more of the sourcebooks and adventures.
7. Fix the races that need to be fixed. Some of these should not have been picked up and dropped in Eberron without changes to match the setting.
Elves (Aereni and Valenar), Gnomes, drow, etc. are different than standard versions. Adjust them. (Some of this may not be necessary in 4e, but it should've been done in 3.5e.)
8. Playtest the Artificer better this time please.
9. Travel times and routes. This matters in Eberron far more than any other setting. A 2-page map and some tables are probably all that is really needed. Tables appeared in other books, but please put them in the main one so all the players can have them.
10. Weather tables please (Not strictly necessary but they would be nice).
11. Advance the timeline as you originally intended!. I am more than a little miffed that the designers caved in and threw out a perfectly good idea just beause some people complained. The rest of us who liked the idea never got a say. We had no idea you were running a popularity contest on the issue so we didn't get to voice support for the idea. Now we may be stuck in a Groundhog day campaign setting where it is perpetually Y998. That is the one good thing about the FR setting. It feels like a living setting because the timeline advances. The changes don't have to be cataclysmic but things should change. If people don't want their setting to advance they don't have to, but include the option for the rest of us. This can be easily done with a couple of paragraphs at the end of each entry.
12. For the love of God don't leave us hanging until 2009. The supplements can come out on 2009, but if possible, the core book should come out ASAP after the new 4e rules. If this isn't possible, release info in Dragon or Insider or whatever for 4e rules on: Artificer class, Eberron races that are not in the PHB or MM, and paths for said races.
Tzarevitch
1.) If that's what FR gets, Eberron should get as well.
2.) The Player's book could be an amalgamation of the normal ECS and Five Nations, with other stuff thrown in, so a player has a much better idea about his/her home. Similarly, the DM Eberron book would be an amalgamation of the ECS, Five Nations, and Explorer's Guide.
I also agree with the clearing up of everything but Breland.
I, though, don't want a timeline advancement. Maybe in like 5-6 years. It's just too new to warrant a timeline advancement, it hasn't been explored enough.
But, this isn't a thread about timeline enhancement.
I think quite a few books will end up getting redone, which I don't really mind. Forge of War was a very good fluff book, but there wasn't much crunchy stuff, for example.
Oh, of course, something that i think I just have to say is that Eberron has to be made better and expanded while still remaining Eberron. It's tough, but I'm sure (the) Wizards can do it.
Eh. Still not that eloquent. Meh, to the gym for me.
What I'd like to see (some of this has been mentioned already)
5. Fix the population figures. Multiplying by 5 tends to produce less silly figures. The population cannot be that small on a continent that size. If it really is, say why?
6. Stop soft-pedalling the dirty parts of life in Eberron. That is the best part of the setting.
War is hell, describe it as such. People DIED in the Last War, a LOT of them. Tzarevitch
the answer to 5. is 6.
There were One Hundered years of intense war between the entire realm
i would say that 80% of the world could have been wiped out
i can agree with pionts 2. and 3. but please give up on 11. they had a very good reason not to extend the time line.
It Would Have Sucked
the answer to 5. is 6.
There were One Hundered years of intense war between the entire realm
i would say that 80% of the world could have been wiped out
Here we go again!No, the answer to 5 is not 6. That argument lost what little weight it had when The Forge of War came out. By that book, the war was a very low intensity conflict. Nothing, absolutely nothing in any published Eberron material points to an event of this magnitude.
80% dead is not war. That's extinction. That's the collapse of civilization. It would have been big. We'd know about it. We'd be in ruins up the wazoo.
Just... multiply the damn pop already. Then it's gonna make sense to at least some people.
For others, well, anything seems to make sense to them, so there you go.
What lacks believability for me regarding Talenta is three-fold.
First of all, even if there was no wholesale acculturation of Talenta, it is not feasible that there would be absolutely no expansion into the Talenta Plains on the part of Karrnath and Cyre during its thousands of years of occupation. Either the halflings resisted human incursion more ferociously than is currently portrayed or a few scattered roads and abandoned settlements should be added to provide the sense that humans once existed there.
There is actually real life historical precedent for this. Even across thousands of years of history, the Chinese were never able to effectively extend their control into the vast plains of Central Asia. Instead, they had to constantly fend off invasions from the nomadic tribes of the plains.
Part of the reason for this is that vast plains, like what the Talenta plains seem to be, are only marginal farmland. They are too dry to support most agriculture. Karnnath might just see little benefit in holding Talenta.
The current Talenta/Karrnathi border seems arbitrary. From the map it looks like a line through the middle of supposably arable land with no distinguishing features. Did they just plop down a big fence with occasional "No Trespassing" signs?
The border probably is vague. No one really knows where exactly Karrnath ends and the Talenta plains begin. It certainly fits in with the shaky political landscape of Eberron.
I have never really had any problem with how the Talenta plains were presented.
A clear division of player content and DM content. It really took some time for my players to get a sense of belonging and later, involvement, when we started playing in Eberron. The main reason, I think, is that I could not let them read the setting book.
No thanks. Splitting books into player sections and DM sections is something that I think should disappear. For one, I don't think there is a clear differentiation between players and DMs. I want to both play in Eberron campaigns and DM them for example.
Also, I don't think knowing that Kaius was a vampire ever hurt my experiences as a player in my last Eberron campaign, even when we were dealing with him directly. All it did was give the players some material to make OOC comments with. Mature players shouldn't let metagame knowledge sway their IC actions anyways.
Besides, what information would be for the DM only anyways? All of the world information should be available to the players to let them come up with character concepts. Info on stuff like the Trust or true nature of the Blood of Vol can be used by a player to create a character background. The only material that would count as plot spoilers (like the Kaius is a vampire stuff) could be consolidated into 5 pages or so at the back of the book.
No thanks. Splitting books into player sections and DM sections is something that I think should disappear. For one, I don't think there is a clear differentiation between players and DMs. I want to both play in Eberron campaigns and DM them for example.
Also, I don't think knowing that Kaius was a vampire ever hurt my experiences as a player in my last Eberron campaign, even when we were dealing with him directly. All it did was give the players some material to make OOC comments with. Mature players shouldn't let metagame knowledge sway their IC actions anyways.
Besides, what information would be for the DM only anyways? All of the world information should be available to the players to let them come up with character concepts. Info on stuff like the Trust or true nature of the Blood of Vol can be used by a player to create a character background. The only material that would count as plot spoilers (like the Kaius is a vampire stuff) could be consolidated into 5 pages or so at the back of the book.
The more I think about this, the more this makes sense to me. Anything that's something only the DM should know should be left up to the DM to decide. Heck, you could even throw the true nature of Kaius in that pot if you want. Maybe he's Kaius III, maybe he's Kaius I, or maybe just a total imposter, that kind of thing. It's the only way to keep players from knowing it, especially from those who are both players and DMs. Maybe the new ECS should expand that list.
No thanks. Splitting books into player sections and DM sections is something that I think should disappear. For one, I don't think there is a clear differentiation between players and DMs. I want to both play in Eberron campaigns and DM them for example.
Here's a crazy thought: you could always read both parts.
Also, I don't think knowing that Kaius was a vampire ever hurt my experiences as a player in my last Eberron campaign, even when we were dealing with him directly. All it did was give the players some material to make OOC comments with. Mature players shouldn't let metagame knowledge sway their IC actions anyways.
That's beside the point. Even mature players prefer a surprise. Ain't it more dramatic?
Besides, what information would be for the DM only anyways? All of the world information should be available to the players to let them come up with character concepts. Info on stuff like the Trust or true nature of the Blood of Vol can be used by a player to create a character background. The only material that would count as plot spoilers (like the Kaius is a vampire stuff) could be consolidated into 5 pages or so at the back of the book.
- Non-public info on the organizations presented in the book;
- Non-public info on the nations;
- NPC stats;
- Monster stats;
- DM fluff (How-tos and so on);
- Intro Adventure;
That is more than 5 pages.
You don't lose anything if they separate player content from DM content. Others gain a way to use the book that is better for them.
Here's a crazy thought: you could always read both parts.
That's beside the point. Even mature players prefer a surprise. Ain't it more dramatic?
- Non-public info on the organizations presented in the book;
- Non-public info on the nations;
- NPC stats;
- Monster stats;
- DM fluff (How-tos and so on);
- Intro Adventure;
That is more than 5 pages.
You don't lose anything if they separate player content from DM content. Others gain a way to use the book that is better for them.
Why should non-public info be kept from the players? What if a player wants to play a Gnome who works for the Trust? What if the player wants to play a Karnnathi agent who is infiltrating the Blood of Vol in order to spy on it for Kaius? What is someone wants to be a Khalashtar warrior fighting against the Inspired? All of these character types would possess non-public information, and would require the player knowing about non-public information to come up with them.
Keeping details from the players only limits their imagination to come up with character concepts, and prevents them from grasping onto the full ideas that drive the setting. If a player doesn't know about all of the dirty secrets behind the scenes in Khorvaire, then they won't be able to grasp that Eberron is campaign setting built around Noir shades of grey.
For example, Kaius, the king who worked the hardest to end the Last War, is actually a vampire. Knowing this, the players know two things about the setting in general: 1) Few people are what they appear to be, and 2) not all traditional monsters in Eberron are necessarily enemies to be killed. Kaius is a vampire that the PCs may end up allying with in some campaigns. Understanding these facts really helps someone understand and appreciate Eberron.
Besides, the greatest secrets of Eberron have no answers in the ECS or anywhere else. There is no spoiler for what caused the Mourning anywhere.
Why should non-public info be kept from the players?
Again: so the DM can surprise the players. Their ability or willingness to ignore player knowledge when playing is irrelevant and beside the point. It's like the movies: it's much more enjoyable when you see it if no one has told you every plot and twist in advance.
What if a player wants to play a Gnome who works for the Trust? What if the player wants to play a Karnnathi agent who is infiltrating the Blood of Vol in order to spy on it for Kaius? What if someone wants to be a Khalashtar warrior fighting against the Inspired? All of these character types would possess non-public information, and would require the player knowing about non-public information to come up with them.
Easlily done, even with a 2-parts ECS.
First, and this works very well if character creation is a cooperative effort between players and DM, you could share with the player(s) only whatever information would normally be available to their character. They tell you what concept they are going for, you propose the setup and share some info on possible organization choices, back and forth until you're done. Introducing the secrets only as needed means you can start many campaigns while keeping it new. Also:
- Knowledge within secret organizations and/or governments is compartmented (by tier (ex: Aurum), by cell (ex: Em. Claw), or both): does every 1st level karnathi agent needs to know about Kaius?
- Knowledge about rival organizations can be exact, speculative, or non-existent or incomplete. By controlling the information, you can setup many plots. Most importantly, you can use misinformation as a plot device. But if they possess all the information, you would not only be asking them to ignore some of it, you would be asking them to knowingly act on false information.
Second, if all else fails, if you don't want them to be influenced by any guidance on your part, you can always fall back to letting them read both player and DM parts.
Keeping details from the players only limits their imagination to come up with character concepts, and prevents them from grasping onto the full ideas that drive the setting. If a player doesn't know about all of the dirty secrets behind the scenes in Khorvaire, then they won't be able to grasp that Eberron is campaign setting built around Noir shades of grey.
For example, Kaius, the king who worked the hardest to end the Last War, is actually a vampire. Knowing this, the players know two things about the setting in general: 1) Few people are what they appear to be, and 2) not all traditional monsters in Eberron are necessarily enemies to be killed. Kaius is a vampire that the PCs may end up allying with in some campaigns. Understanding these facts really helps someone understand and appreciate Eberron.
Besides, the greatest secrets of Eberron have no answers in the ECS or anywhere else. There is no spoiler for what caused the Mourning anywhere.
What? You mean you don't know? ;)
But seriously, what compels me do defend the merits of player/DM content separation against your "no thanks" is that I completely fail to see why one would oppose it, and then persist. Look at the logic:
- Proposition A: ECS Content is not separated.
- Proposition B: ECS Content is separated in DM/Player section.
- Group 1: Wants DM to know both DM and Player information, and players to initially know only Player information.
- Group 2: Wants both DM and players to know both DM and Player information.
(In the following, a group which can have it its way is said as being positively affected, and negatively affected if it can't.)
- Group 1 is negatively affected by Proposition A, and positively affected by Proposition B;
- Group 2 is positively affected by Proposition A, and positively affected by Proposition B;
Rationally, Proposition B satisfies the most people.
IMHO organizations in Eberron are central! There is not good againt evil but i believe that there are some organizations that want only to create and others that wants only to destroy.. The methods are the same but the aims not..
In our campaign the party, after endless adventures, decide that their aim was to reunificate the khorvaire. It's good to have something epic to do and not only a serie of adventure not linked..
They created a small organization (less than a city thief guild) but now after a year they are really big, and full of local subsidiaries, enemies, hidden friends (like the king boranel), ecc
For the DM it's better to create good adventures..
Now we r thinking to about home made rules concernig the premium for all the Organizzation if the small parties achieve the goals.. (and not only 4 the parties). And what's happen if they fall?
Who decide the long terms goals of the organization? the players (that could have more than one character..)..
Ecc
I hope i'm clear.. :D
Cheers
C.L.
... 1st and only wish: Stop generalizing.
Really. That's it. Now, the effect that would have would be staggering if it actually happened, but... I own just about every Eberron book out there, and while reading each one I get the feeling that I'm getting a 'high level overview'. I like having a high level overview, they're very helpful for planning. That doesn't fill the gaps though. As much as I enjoy world building on my own, I don't want to have to make up every single little detail.
Think of Forgotten Realms: Waterdeep. The only thing that comes close in Eberron really is Sharn. And while Sharn has some detail, it's nowhere near the level of Waterdeep.
In being more specific, I think we'll end up with longer books.. But hey, we can cut out all the pictures that seem like they're just there to fill up space, and maybe drop the font size a point or two.
It would be really great if there were a lot more nitty-gritty detail in the next set of releases.
What I came up with (and was already mentioned) right away was that I really wish there was information on the Dhakaani empire as well as more info on the current life of the goblins, a fleshing out in general of their place in the world.
No more second class citizen status in the book!
I'd also be happy to see more tidbits on the philosophical milieu of the setting.
And...
In being more specific, I think we'll end up with longer books.. But hey, we can cut out all the pictures that seem like they're just there to fill up space, and maybe drop the font size a point or two.
It would be really great if there were a lot more nitty-gritty detail in the next set of releases.
Amen.
I have a pretty easy Eberron wishlist. Much more generalized than ECS, too!
... 1st and only wish: Stop generalizing.
It would be really great if there were a lot more nitty-gritty detail in the next set of releases.
I coubt you'll see a *whole* lot more detail because Eberron is mostly about giving us a common structure to play in, but letting us write our own campaigns to fit whatever ends we desire.
The only book I know they stated this explicitly was in Secrets of Xen'Drik, but the fact that the designers haven't even declared their novels as "canon" seems to indicate that they want to tae a tack that's (more or less) opposite to that of Forgotten Realms.
Now, that said, I'd personally LOVE a lot more detail. (what REALLY caused the Mourning? What exactly is the Lord of Blades up to? What're the corrupt members of the Silver Flame up to?) Unfortunately, that simply appears to run counter to what Eberron is designed for.
Keeping details from the players only limits their imagination to come up with character concepts, and prevents them from grasping onto the full ideas that drive the setting. If a player doesn't know about all of the dirty secrets behind the scenes in Khorvaire, then they won't be able to grasp that Eberron is campaign setting built around Noir shades of grey.
There are players that enjoy mystery and DMs that enjoy running games rife with secrets and mystery. For those people, it would be ideal to have an Eberron Player's Handbook and am Eberron Dungeon Master's Guide.
Frankly, I don't see any end-user downside to the separation of material. The argument that players are limited in creativity doesn't work for me, simply because I don't want my players playing obscure characters right out of the gate. And that's for the same reasons that I won't let a new player start with a high-level prestige class obscure sub-race as their opening character.
By the time they're "ready" to sink their teeth into something a little denser, experienced players would be welcome to get the DM book and treat themselves to the dirty little secrets contained therein. But having a lower-priced option with only the necessary components for a player to get started is - in my mind - the perfect solution.
I'm not saying the content shouldn't exist, I just want it between 2 sets of covers instead of 1.
Besides, the greatest secrets of Eberron have no answers in the ECS or anywhere else. There is no spoiler for what caused the Mourning anywhere.
That's a single publisher-level secret. One. Some of us draw the spoiler line a lot closer to the ground.
Yeah, I just don't think they went far enough with it. I'd like it set in stone, so if there are pictures of characters in future books, it shouldn't be too difficult to guess with some amount of accuracy their home & culture.
Yeah, I'd have to agree with you there. The only place I know the nationality of a person in a picture is that one pic in the ECS that has a character from each of the 5 Nations, and the caption says where they're from.
Hmm. I just had a thought for a "Pictures of Eberron" book, that's just basically a pure art book and shows the feel, styles, and the like of Eberron, rather than telling about it.
Edit: Oh, I take back my first paragraph; a good chunk of the PrCs in Five Nations I know the nationality of their characters; of course, there's a limited number of places that would have Bone Knights or Dark Lanterns, so......
1) A nice map over Khorvaire with national borders and lightning rail connections in the CS book already. It took all my mental resolve to not bring out a red pen and start drawing in the book. The nation maps that just gray out neighboring nations are very pretty to look at, but it took me considerable time just to get a feeling of how the countries even looked like on the continental map.
Sure, they're very pretty to look at. Exceedingly frustrating for the DM though. Feels nitpicky though...
2) Another vote for making it two books. My players are really cautious when reading as to not stumble upon big secrets I might use in my plotlines, and instead of having to give them "safe" page numbers, I'd rather just give them a "safe" book. Like the PGtE. But, like. More extensive.
3) Tables for airship and lightning rail costs in the CS. Please? Counting miles quickly becomes very very tiresome.
4) A thorough "people who live in X think Y about people from Z". The "five things every person from X knows..." from 5N was also very nice. Maybe we can get that in the CS books already? Some typical prejudices would be great too, since players usually travel quite extensively. It'd be nice to be able to confer the feeling of being looked upon with mistrustful eyes when people around hear their accent.
In short: the more fluff there is about the actual people from Khorvaire and beyond there is, the better!
5) Some detailed info about Dhakaan. Where were their major cities is one of the bigger questions, considering how many ruins there apparently are spread out across the continent. Also, I'm still trying to figure out how the resources of an empire couldn't stop the Daelkyr while a small cult of druids could. :P
Also, I'm still trying to figure out how the resources of an empire couldn't stop the Daelkyr while a small cult of druids could. :P
It's incorrect to say "The empire utterly failed and all success was due to the Gatekeepers." What the Gatekeepers were able to do was to break the connection to Xoriat and to bind the Daelkyr in Khyber - stripping the armies of their leaders and stripping those leaders of much of their power. How could they do that when the Dhakaani couldn't? Because affecting the path of the planes and crafting mystic seals isn't just about numbers and resources - it's about magic, and the Dhakaani simply didn't have a culture that pursued that style of magic.
Nonetheless, the Dhakaani were hardly helpless or useless in the war. They fought the Daelkyr for decades. They couldn't completely defeat the Daelkyr, because it was simply impossible to do that while they could draw on the strength of Xoriat. But you can be certain that the forces of the empire won many battles DURING that war... otherwise, the struggle wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. Likewise, the Gatekeepers may have trapped the DAELKYR, but they didn't magically destroy every army of aberrations with their seals; the goblins continued to battle with scattered warped forces for decades or even centuries afterwards. But without the power of Xoriat and the leadership of the Daelkyr, they were eventually defeated or driven into dark places.
Remember that the empire wasn't destroyed DURING the war with Daelkyr. Many great cities and provinces were lost, but the empire itself remained for over a thousand years after the defeat of the Daelkyr. It's simply that it suffered a mortal wound that festered and grew in the centuries that followed. Remember that the Daelkyr are lords of Xoriat, and in in defeat they scattered seeds of madness that flourished over the years that followed. Warlords rebelled against the emperor. People turned away from the old traditions and began worshipping strange gods, including the Cults of the Dragon Below and the 16-god pantheon mentioned in PGtE. The clans now known as the Heirs of Dhakaan recognized the cancer as incurable and went into isolation to preserve their traditions and discipline. But in the end, the empire fell at the hands of the goblins; the Daelkyr were simply the hand that set the wheel in motion.
More relative info on the fringe nations.
That should have happened already for 3.5! They've completely ignored all those unique and interesting places they've created and barely presented across Khorvaire.
Too bad we'll have to wait until D&D:WOWWE (that's Dungeons and Dragons: World of Warcraft Wanna-be Edition) comes out to get anything on these places (if they do anything on these places - I tragically predict that they'll rehash all the existing stuff in painfully costly new books with the same old material and information with the only new thing being error corrections, the new MMORPG-like mechanics and some new eye-candy and one or two new fun-to-muse over tidbits to make it "seem" worth it.
But in the ECS, as I said, most things have already been touched on by others here.
1. Player's Guide and Campaign Guide that are separate books
2. Page count of Each book around 320 pages
3. Better maps; more detail; better scale
4. Smaller font size to pack in as much info as in the FRCS for 3rd ed.
5. Smooth out the confusion from the description of the artificer class--it shouldn't require us to discuss it and put up a FAQ on these messageboards. (That shows the description had bugs in it). How it works could be explained clearer with a worked example since the class uses many non-standard elements.
6. Better mechanics (probably) in the core rules so that there is a reason for the PCs to visit NPCs like an inquisitive or a sage etc
7. Have a third book for monsters. Don't put monsters in the ECS. Call it Monsters of Eberron
8. Travelling/Cost of Living all in one place
9. Mostly have Khorvaire info with a smattering of info on other places
10. Poster map as mentioned would be nice (with more details)
11. Much less fluffy sitting-on-the-fence writing. You employ professional writers to write material, but the writing from Races of Eberron was total rubbish. It was almost like rehash of everything in the ECS. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE fluff in books (much more than say, annoying statblocks). It's just that a minority of the fluffy material for Eberron was really poorly written. Please don't repeat that mistake. I understand that it might not have been the writers' fault; it may have been poor direction etc.
Note that your readers aren't stupid. They're articulate, well-educated, well-read, literate people. Don't give them crap for their cash.
12. Make the setting even more gritty, with some gory description of the Last War.
13. Please, please include some more definite ideas on how DMs can capture the pulp/noir/adventure ideas to make Eberron-esque adventures. You'll profit from it by receiving better submissions from writer for Dungeon Online.
Cheers,
Mark
PH Eberron, DM Eberron and MM Eberron. Just makes sense.
A third book for monsters just makes sense to me.
The problem, honestly, is that Eberron simply doesn't have enough UNIQUE monsters to fill a "Monsters of Eberron" book. One of the points of Eberron is to provide ways to incorporate the monsters from core in a logical fashion - and furthermore, some of Eberron's unique monsters are now in the core MM. So you've got the daelkyr, the quori, the deathless... that's not enough to justify a 320-page book. And if one book - a non-specific MM - can benefit players of all settings, more people get to make use of the work, while the Eberron-specific book budget can be pushed towards things that are truly unique to Eberron and can't be shared (planes, nations, history, etc). In fact, the runehound from the MM III was originally designed for the ECS; but it's something that can easily be used in core or FR.
OK everyone, we need something new to talk about... and disembodies threads aren't helping.... SO i am starting a new thread to ask you, the Public and Fans of this Grand Campaign, this Marvel of ingenuity and imagination...
GOOD rules for Swiftwing shifters, and for werebat form to be included as an option in GOOD rules for Weretouched Masters.
Every time I try to come up with a decent build using the current rules I end up throwing up my hands in disgust and giving up.
- Ron ^*^
It's incorrect to say "The empire utterly failed and all success was due to the Gatekeepers." What the Gatekeepers were able to do was to break the connection to Xoriat and to bind the Daelkyr in Khyber - stripping the armies of their leaders and stripping those leaders of much of their power. How could they do that when the Dhakaani couldn't? Because affecting the path of the planes and crafting mystic seals isn't just about numbers and resources - it's about magic, and the Dhakaani simply didn't have a culture that pursued that style of magic.
Snipped a lot there. Thanks for the info, as usual.
I'm starting a campaign soon featuring Orc and Goblinoid PCs fighting Aberrations, and on Daelkyr lord in particular who is (guess what?) working on breaking the bonds that keep it in Khyber. Of course the Gatekeepers will feature in this campaign, but I also included a goblinoid tradition that is equally revered among their own kind -- the Keepers of the Cerulean Sign (from Lords of Madness). It seemed a perfect fit since Hobgoblins have such reverence for their bards and the CotCS is basically a bardic PrC. Now it may be that the original Keepers developed AFTER the Daelkyr were already sealed by the Orcs -- certainly I would have them develop AFTER the Gatekeepers did. On the other hand it may well be that today's goblinoid Keepers remember some important lore that has been forgotten even by the Gatekeepers.
Thanks for clearing up another thing for me in your post -- when the 16 god pantheon of the goblinoids came about. Another piece of the puzzle falls into place.
- Ron ^*^
Don't release without rules for Psionic.
Keep the cosmology.
No spoiler.
Keep as much blank space as it was in the first ECS. No need of time travel chart... let me decide...
I don't want to see any difference in any fluff to squeeze some major insert **cough** Eladrin **cough**.
The wizard discipline thing could be replace(or just renamed) with the arcane school(or organisation) known in Eberron.
I have a pretty easy Eberron wishlist. Much more generalized than ECS, too!
... 1st and only wish: Stop generalizing.
Really. That's it. Now, the effect that would have would be staggering if it actually happened, but... I own just about every Eberron book out there, and while reading each one I get the feeling that I'm getting a 'high level overview'. I like having a high level overview, they're very helpful for planning. That doesn't fill the gaps though. As much as I enjoy world building on my own, I don't want to have to make up every single little detail.
Think of Forgotten Realms: Waterdeep. The only thing that comes close in Eberron really is Sharn. And while Sharn has some detail, it's nowhere near the level of Waterdeep.
In being more specific, I think we'll end up with longer books.. But hey, we can cut out all the pictures that seem like they're just there to fill up space, and maybe drop the font size a point or two.
It would be really great if there were a lot more nitty-gritty detail in the next set of releases.
I agree with this but believe the majority does not so I don’t plan on it changing, and I am not completely convinced it should. Although I would personally like more information cleared up I have a lot of respect for someone who can put so much work into creating a world without having to have the final say on the major events of that world. That being said I think there is to much of a “you fill in the blanks” to some of the source books, FoW comes to mind. I liked the book but grew frustrated at the continual “it could have been A or B, nobody knows” in the book. I don’t want all the answer but personally feel more information is left unanswered than my feeble brain can figure out on its own.
Also, I can’t wait until 2009 for another Eberron fix, I hope we see something before then.
and a good point is to translate the books in other lenguages. ( there are many importants books which are only in english like dragonmarked or at least it isn't in spanish XD)
-- Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies for as many prestige classes as possible :
Smaller/shorter, lower level PrCs such as Dragonmark Heir (or maybe even some of the 5-level PrCs from "DragonMarked", like the Storm Sentry [SwordMage! :D]) could be done by the right application of classes, feats and talents... the more complicated/high level ones like Bone Knight, Windwright Captain, Revenant Blade, Heir of Siberys, et al would likely need a paragon path. As for epic destinies, well, it's a world that needs heroes... go wild!
-- Definitive explanation for the tieflings and the dragonborn :
I love both of the races, but the tiefling might be a little easier to incorporate into Eberron as characters... Although this one might not be too hard. Tieflings = Demon Wastes, Planar influence of Shavarath, etc etc; Dragonborn = Q'barra, and/or Argonessen.
-- Artificers... :
A lot of work will end up being redone with these, I wager. Since XP will no longer be used as a cost for building items, another system will have to be used for Retain Essence... or just discarded entirely (but replaced with what?)
If I think of something more I'll add it in...
Oh, and my pet theory on Cyre/Mournland: The Dead Grey mist (and all of its effects on the land below) is part of a country-sized Epic Living Spell.
Your Mileage May Vary, however...
That is, like the Iconic Monsters section on page 303 of the current ECS, but expanded to include a larger number of monsters. Even if the entries are shorter.
-- Artificers... :
A lot of work will end up being redone with these, I wager. Since XP will no longer be used as a cost for building items, another system will have to be used for Retain Essence... or just discarded entirely (but replaced with what?)
Maybe just make retain essense an ability that allows an artificer to transform a magic item into an equivalent level item over a period of time that is proportional to the level of the item (even in the field). In other words, make it a direct exchange rather than through the currency of XP points.
I want exactly what it has currently, just updated for 4e rules. I personally don't feel it requires a single change.
I want exactly what it has currently, just updated for 4e rules. I personally don't feel it requires a single change.
Really? I'd like more info on some things. That's a change that I think it does require, or else you could just grab the core 3 and your old ECS and wait for the psionics book to come out.
(I already have taken Eberron and moved onward in time. So much of the material that is given really has such potential to move many ways. There are all sorts of things just waiting to happen. When the setting gets too far out of wack, I can always start over fresh.)
The first question I received is Can we have dragonmarks?
I had to explain, that at the moment, their are no rules for dragonmarks.
The 4.0 power system fits well into dragonmarks, so I thought about saying, your "dragonmarks" can explain part of your powers but I don't know how that will work out when the 4.0 Eberron Books come out. It might backfire on me, so I said that dragonmark can manifest themselves later on in your characters life.
Gnomes and Warforged are in the Monster Manuel.
I can have fun in the meantime, given the choice of rushed work on books now or well thought quality books later--the choice is obvious, 4.0 Eberron needs to be done right.
I like the idea of two or three books instead of one. And a poster map would be nice.
I'd like to see more information about dragonshards...
I invented a "gold rush" on dragonshards in Q'Barra with wagon trains running thru the Talenta Plains. That was fun. :D
I am getting a little off topic here, so getting back to the subject -- yes more information on Dragonshards would be nice since they are very Eberronish.
I just wish that gods were a bit more present in 4th edition.
I would like to have more information on religion, especially druids sects.
On this note, I hope a few things happen where religion is concerned with the 4e ECS.
* The Sovereign Host: Don't spend a whole lot of time on the individual gods, as most clerics venerate the entire crew.
* Church of the Silver Flame: Please make it very clear that no, this is NOT the catholic church in fantasy dressing.
* The Blood of Vol: Put more time into describing what the religion is all about and it's status in the Five Nations, rather than who is masterminding it.
* Cults of the Dragon Below: Firstly, 'Khyber cults' is less of a mouthful. ;) Secondly, it might help if we quit capitalizing the 'C' in cults, to reinforce that these guys are not organized in the least and have no unifying doctrine, just a similar madness and love of sacrifice.
* The Path of Light & Undying Court: If these are gonna be in the ECS, other religions of similar prevalence should be mentioned as well (like the Keepers of the Past and the Becoming God).
* Druidism: We got plenty of info about these guys in Faiths of Eberron, but a quick run-down and description of each sect would be nice for novices. Also, don't focus so much on them pesky Gatekeepers...
1. more information on the monstrous nations.
2. bonuses given to players based on region and background feats, in a similar fashion to Guardians of Order A game of thrones regional benefits and background feats.
I just never saw anything in the fluff that said they want to be in charge
I like the daelkyr. I use them as the right-hand men of the mindflayers, and other baddies.
I just never saw anything in the fluff that said they want to be in charge
Well, they rule the plane of Xoriat and created the mind flayers. They canonly don't care about escaping since they're immortal, but the mind flayers follow them and try to free them since they aren't, although Mind Flayers are the only aberrations that occasionally follow their own schedule as well.
Well, they rule the plane of Xoriat and created the mind flayers. They canonly don't care about escaping since they're immortal, but the mind flayers follow them and try to free them since they aren't, although Mind Flayers are the only aberrations that occasionally follow their own schedule as well.
I meant to say dolgaunt. :embarrass
although Mind Flayers are the only aberrations that occasionally follow their own schedule as well.
Are or aren't? If you meant "are" then I'll disagree. Aberrations are a unpredictable bunch, and beholders, aboleths, and many other aberrations do indeed follow their own twisted, alien schedules apart from the machinations of the daelkyr.
In the Player's Guide I would love to see 5 things ever Reacher Knows. 5 things every Valenar knows. 5 things every Lhazzarite knows. etc...
"Adventures in...." in the 3.5 ECS were helpful, but I believe the "Getting the PC's involved" sections of the Five Nations book were more on the mark. I'd like to see a great deal of that in the 4E ECS.
Make the races come alive. Really. I believe that the flavor of Eberron comes on two primary levels. The racial and political tensions of the world, and the way you perceive yourself fitting into it. These two primary levels of flavor are the reason we need two books. In the new player's guide, all central races, new and old, need to be crystalized so that any Eberron player can smell the Shadow Marsh swamp-water dripping off a half-orc, or feel their spine tingling with danger when they spot a Thurrani Heir.
Be sure to detail the materials that make Eberron Unique. Byeshk, Bronzewood, Soarwood, Flametouched Iron, Dreamlily. Suggest places that they can be found, and who might be looking for them.
Your fan base loves the idea of dragonshards. Talk about how they are used in the world. Talk about their meaning in a few different cultures.
In the new ECS, talk about who needs them, and possible sinister plans involving them. Does Morgave have the Hope Diamond of Siberys Shards on display? Was it once stolen and used in a terrible Eldritch Machine?
Put in grayed out side bars that don't draw the eye, and put the secrets there. The fact is that players frequently glance through the ECS, and they should. Make it harder for players to ruin surprises for themselves.
More on the War of the Mark (and aberrant marks in general)
A full race treatment for Eberron Hobgoblins (Dhaakani [sp?])
A four fold pamphlet introducing the basics of Eberron that I can give to my players so that they know enough about the setting to start a game without fumbling about.