Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Bly2729 May 19, 2009 11:17:13	As Alex said, 3.5 Eberron embraced pulp and swashbuckling over the top style action. 4th edition itself embraced the sort of thematic direction Eberron went in, so they needed to do something different. It’s sort of weird, I always saw Eberron as the 3.5 rules taken to their logical conclusion. I’m curious to see how the culture of a magical economy shifts. Is it going to be as simple as people use rituals instead of spells? I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be. By the way, is the 4E magical economy how they figure out which kids are going to be adventurers and PCs when they grow up? "Billy was an apprentice, but everything he made was worth exactly 1/5th of the cost to produce it and no one wants to give him a proft. He must be marked by the Prophecy to hit the adventurer gravy train." Its a sort of interesting logical puzzle. As an adventurer, no matter how hard you work, nothing you create will ever make you rich. Instead your destiny is to find your living in tombs and temples. Sure you have to kill monsters for it, but you still find or loot it. So far, all of the previews have focused on Droaam and the Mournland. The Excerpt mention Xen’drik and Aerenal. The Five Nations lumped together in every preview and never really focused on. Is it that 4E Eberron wants to kick us into the woods and remove the sort of support adventuring in a nation brings? Does anyone else think that Mordain the Fleshweaver is being marketed as the Darker and Edgier Elminster of Eberron? Dragonmarks will likely function as a Channel Divinity Feats with a ritual behind them. Even tier of the Dragonmark conforms to a tier of play (Heroic, Paragon, Epic). Siberys Marks make a logical epic destiny. For some reason, the previews have all plugged the importance of the PCs to the Draconic Prophecy. Now in 3.5 I did not give two silver pieces about the thing. It seemed like the Dragons stayed on their island with necks craned up to the sky while I was fighting on the roof the 9 pm to Passage and saving the world. Chamber Agent: Excuse me, do you have a moment to talk about the Draconic Prophecy? Me: Go plug your Dharma Initiative elsewhere Hanso that guy in the half-faceplate is trying to STAB ME!! Here’s a little DM tip, every time you mention a prophecy you create two PCs dedicated to thwarting said prophecy. The Excerpt says that the dragons are “incensed” that the Prophecy is being written onto mortal flesh. If a Halfling bartender using magic to cut lemons in a Ghallanda Tavern is a serious threat to your religion and existence, your priorities need adjusting. Having said that, I am curious to see what they do with Changelings. I loved my 3.5 Transmuter/Illusionist Reality Seeker and now that the fun is gone from 4E illusion spells I’m wondering where they can go from here. They’ll probably have language and will defense bonuses, but how do you add something to their most memorable feature (Change Shape) which in 4th Edition is essentially a roleplaying mechanic as someone on the boards pointed out. I mean, sort of the blessing and curse of 4E is that races and classes are balanced by their combat effectiveness. Anyways that's all I have for now.
#2 Marcus_Majarra May 19, 2009 11:36:36	For some reason, the previews have all plugged the importance of the PCs to the Draconic Prophecy. Now in 3.5 I did not give two silver pieces about the thing. It seemed like the Dragons stayed on their island with necks craned up to the sky while I was fighting on the roof the 9 pm to Passage and saving the world. I think it's a bit narrow-minded to assume that including the Draconic Prophecy in your campaigns should require the participation of dragons. The Prophecy itself is the living tapestry of history that has passed and is yet to come. Any and all who seek to have influence over fate have stakes with the Prophecy and, even without the inclusion of creatures or characters that actively study it, can still serve as an excellent plot hook in all sorts of adventures. The Dreaming Dark trilogy has more than one example of creatures interacting with the prophecy, none of them being a dragon in the first place. That the Draconic Prophecy play a prominent role in 4E Eberron seems natural to me, given that PCs have access to epic destinies that quite obviously makes them important in the unfurling of history.
#3 AvonRekaes May 19, 2009 13:48:10	Dragonmarks will likely function as a Channel Divinity Feats with a ritual behind them. Even tier of the Dragonmark conforms to a tier of play (Heroic, Paragon, Epic). Siberys Marks make a logical epic destiny. Interesting, but I disagree with your assumptions regarding the tiers. There are 4 tiers of Dragonmarks, Least, Lesser, Greater, and Siberys. This doesn't map to the tiers of play. Furthermore, various NPCs are noted as having a Greater mark, and a few rare ones have the Siberys mark. These NPCs are not seen as epic movers and shakers of the setting, they're just another resource of the house. Greater and Siberys marks would most likely be a paragon tier game element for PCs. Siberys Heir would be a perfect Paragon Path. If you're assuming that Siberys would be better as an epic destiny so someone could take both a "Dragonmarked Heir" type paragon path to improve the usefulness of their least, lesser, and greater dragonmarks, and then go into Siberys Heir, you'd be forgetting that Siberys marks are mutually exclusive with the lower marks. IE, if you have a Greater Dragonmark, you can't have a Siberys Dragonmark. Therefore it's more likely that we'll see two dragonmarked paragon paths. One for developing your standard marks, and one for manifesting a Siberys Mark. And again, Siberys Marks aren't epic in scope. An Epic NPC would be a highly visible figure in the settling like Vol, Jaela Daran, or the Great Druid Oalain. Handing out epic-level effects to random business people isn't likely.
#4 bobiago May 19, 2009 17:08:29	I have tried to get interested in the Draconic Prophecy. I really have. And the setting, and Keith, and everyone keeps on telling me that I should care about it. But I find it completely boring as a central theme. I get it. It's big. It's mysterious. It is the reason for wars and purges and genocides. It's the main motivation of all dragonkind. It may even have been the reason for the conflict that created the world. And it is deliberately unfathomable. Am I the only one who finds unfathomable things a bit sketchy to be hanging adventure plots, especially pulp/noir plots on?
#5 nthdegree256 May 19, 2009 17:59:07	I have tried to get interested in the Draconic Prophecy. I really have. And the setting, and Keith, and everyone keeps on telling me that I should care about it. But I find it completely boring as a central theme. I get it. It's big. It's mysterious. It is the reason for wars and purges and genocides. It's the main motivation of all dragonkind. It may even have been the reason for the conflict that created the world. And it is deliberately unfathomable. Am I the only one who finds unfathomable things a bit sketchy to be hanging adventure plots, especially pulp/noir plots on? I can see where you're coming from, I admit to having similar difficulties with the Prophecy. The trick I use to make it interesting is to recognize that it's not a big predestined list of how everything will happen. It's more like a bunch of big IF-statements in a program. "If X, Y, and Z happen, then so-and-so will definitely die before a year has passed." It keeps the Prophecy from seeming like a big immovable railroading device, and more like a useful tool - it tells you what actions are necessary to get an event to occur, but doesn't guarantee that those actions will happen without effort.
#6 mhacdebhandia May 21, 2009 0:37:33	Another way to look at the Draconic Prophecy: It's not the reason PCs do things. It's not the reason your antagonists do things. It can be the reason NPCs get involved in the struggle between the PCs and the antagonists - on either side, or, since this is Eberron, on both sides at different times. So the PCs have discovered that a Karrnathi noble is trying to provoke a war in order to create the circumstances that will allow her to depose Kaius III and rule in his stead - on behalf of her secret patron, Vol. The PCs have their reasons for opposing her - but the Draconic Prophecy can be the reason why other parties are getting involved, whether to help or to hinder the PCs. Perhaps they simply seek to stop the noble from enacting her scheme. Perhaps they want the noble to start a war, because it fits with a condition of the Prophecy they wish to see fulfilled, but have other reasons to oppose her after the war begins - perhaps the Prophecy says that Kaius III must remain on the throne in order for their desires to come to fruition, or even that one of the PCs must replace him as king. Maybe they want the noble to become Queen of Karrnath because it's actually crucial to defeating Vol once and for all - or so the Prophecy says. The real utility of the Draconic Prophecy is that it's exactly the sort of motivation that makes the two-faced, backstabbing, murky-loyalties tone of adventure in Eberron possible.
#7 Alex_ May 21, 2009 0:55:23	As Alex said, 3.5 Eberron embraced pulp and swashbuckling over the top style action. 4th edition itself embraced the sort of thematic direction Eberron went in, so they needed to do something different. Well the 10 facts about Eberron is almost word for word like the 3.5 incarnation. It doesn't seem like they'll be changing much of anything conceptually, and instead, will simply embracing a system that understands and facilitates Eberron better all around. Having said that, I am curious to see what they do with Changelings. I loved my 3.5 Transmuter/Illusionist Reality Seeker and now that the fun is gone from 4E illusion spells I’m wondering where they can go from here. They’ll probably have language and will defense bonuses, but how do you add something to their most memorable feature (Change Shape) which in 4th Edition is essentially a roleplaying mechanic as someone on the boards pointed out. I mean, sort of the blessing and curse of 4E is that races and classes are balanced by their combat effectiveness. 4E Dopplegangers are now Changelings.
#8 JohnLynch May 21, 2009 2:41:40	Am I the only one who finds unfathomable things a bit sketchy to be hanging adventure plots, especially pulp/noir plots on? One of the first things I did as a DM thinking about setting a campaign in Eberron was to define the Draconic Prophecy. Its still a big mystery to my players of course, but I understand it which lets me make adventures involving it. That's one of the big draws I like about Eberron. Everything seems to only be defined to a certain point so a DM can then go from there. If you don't have time to define something and think up details for it, then Eberron isn't a good setting for you. But for someone like me where I was looking for a framework that I could the build upon to make my own, its perfect. As for how Eberron will change, I'm fairly confident the ECS won't change appreciably (yes we'll have dragonborn as a part of Khorvaire's background. Eladrin will probably be more prominent in history. But I doubt they'll be to a major degree). The EPG at this stage looks like it could be making the steampunk more prominent/actually present in 4th ed Eberron.
#9 paideia May 21, 2009 5:59:53	Therefore it's more likely that we'll see two dragonmarked paragon paths. One for developing your standard marks, and one for manifesting a Siberys Mark. I think you're right. An Heir of Siberys and a Dragonmark Heir PP. However I still think they are going to go with the multiclass mechanic, that they used for spellscars in FR. The individual dragonmark qualities as feats, with the possibility of the Dragonmark Heir PP automatically upgrading your mark as the old Prestige Class did.
#10 AvonRekaes May 21, 2009 10:00:19	I think they'll go more the route of Weapon Training multiclass feats, rather than Spellscar's multiclass-only class. That is.... You take a feat called "Mark of X". This feat might give you a +2 to a skill, and maybe one or two rituals you can do as if you had a ritual book and mastered them. Then you take "Least Mark of X" which will function like "[Weapon] Novice", giving you the encounter swap power specific to your mark. Then "Lesser Mark of X" which will function like "[Weapon] Specialist", giving you the utility swap power specific to your mark. And then "Greater Mark of X" which will function like "[Weapon] Expert", giving you the daily swap power specific to your mark. If you take the Dragonmarked Heir PP, It may give you an extra use of each of your swapped powers. This would let you have up to two dragonmark powers of each type (encounter, daily, or utility), or a single use of each type given from the PP, and then you're free to pick the rest of them from your base class. Heir of Siberys would be difficult to write, since you'd have to make three new powers for each Mark. Or they might make a generic encounter and utility power, and then the daily would be specific for each Mark.
#11 Alex_ May 21, 2009 10:06:18	Heir of Syberis might even become an Epic Destiny. It used to be, you had to be more than level 15 to take it anyway.
#12 AvonRekaes May 21, 2009 10:31:31	It wasn't ever an epic destiny. It probably won't be one. Siberys Marked NPCs have been mentioned before, haphazardly. While they're rare enough to be special, they're in no way a road to immortality. You don't need to have a destiny to be Siberys Marked. The mentioned NPCs are just resources of their houses. No where near Epic in scope. They're a much better fit for Paragon. Using the dictionary definition of "paragon", Siberys Marked individuals are paragons of their houses, or dragonmarked power.
#13 ellorin May 21, 2009 12:51:30	Concerning the Siberys subject, as I stated in an older thread, I completely agree with AvonRekaes.
#14 ieattrollsforbreakfast May 21, 2009 13:02:25	There was article some time ago by James Wyatt about statting up the characters from his novel. One of them has a Siberys mark, which James approximated with a home-brewed Paragon Path. The powers were just taken from the Wizard class, I believe. So it's possible the Heir of Siberys PP (or ED, but I doubt that) will allow access to the powers of certain classes based on house, rather than printing 12 new ones. For what it's worth, I used to think the Heir of Siberys would make a great Epic Destiny. After a previous thread about the subject, though, I'm firmly in the Paragon Path camp. Epic Destinies are about changing the world and immortality, paragon paths are about being the movers and shakers of the mortal world. If you ask me, Siberys marks fit the latter.
#15 lyran May 21, 2009 13:46:53	Then you take "Least Mark of X" which will function like "[Weapon] Novice", giving you the encounter swap power specific to your mark. Then "Lesser Mark of X" which will function like "[Weapon] Specialist", giving you the utility swap power specific to your mark. And then "Greater Mark of X" which will function like "[Weapon] Expert", giving you the daily swap power specific to your mark. If you take the Dragonmarked Heir PP, It may give you an extra use of each of your swapped powers. This would let you have up to two dragonmark powers of each type (encounter, daily, or utility), or a single use of each type given from the PP, and then you're free to pick the rest of them from your base class. That sounds good. But awhile back I was thinking about how it would be interesting if gaining a mark would involve taking a channel divinity feat that channeled the power of the Draconic Prophecy. I think that waht your saying is probably along the lines of how they will work it out. Anybody want to place some bets?! :D Concerning the Siberys subject, as I stated in an older thread, I completely agree with AvonRekaes. You took the words right out of my mouth, Ellorin. I agree entirely with AvonRekaes. So it's possible the Heir of Siberys PP (or ED, but I doubt that) will allow access to the powers of certain classes based on house, rather than printing 12 new ones. Interesting. You’re probably right on this. I mean why would anybody take the long and difficult rout when they could take the easy route that is pretty much the same? I'm firmly in the Paragon Path camp. As am I.
#16 AvonRekaes May 21, 2009 15:47:23	I'm not so certain they'll just say "Use [Power], as the wizard power of the same name". There's lots of ways that can end up badly. Like, what if your Heir of Siberys is a half-elven mark of storm fighter? (*cough*). Your Daily attack, if based of a wizard attack, would key off Intelligence, instead of the much more beneficial Strength. It would be like forcing multiclassing Multiple-Ability-Dependancy on your character just to make them effective at the mark they've been waiting for for 20 levels. I think it far more likely that the mark powers, as a whole, operate more like racial attacks. Most racial attacks that I've seen allow you to chose the ability you attack with, to some extent. For example, a healing power for the Mark of Healing might key off wisdom or charisma, and you get to choose what works better for your character. As for Channel Divinity, I wouldn't be terribly suprised if there was a generic feat for "philosopher" clerics that explicitly channeled the remants of Sibery's spiritual energy. However, if Dragonmarks themselves were Channel Divinity feats, then you'd be in the awkward position of requiring all dragonmarked PCs to be Divine characters in order to qualify. Not very likely.
#17 Alex_ May 22, 2009 0:36:08	It wasn't ever an epic destiny. It probably won't be one. Siberys Marked NPCs have been mentioned before, haphazardly. While they're rare enough to be special, they're in no way a road to immortality. You don't need to have a destiny to be Siberys Marked. The mentioned NPCs are just resources of their houses. No where near Epic in scope. They're a much better fit for Paragon. Using the dictionary definition of "paragon", Siberys Marked individuals are paragons of their houses, or dragonmarked power. You had to be level 15+ before to get one. In 3.5 Eberron, that's is pretty darn up there. At that level you're essentially the highest level individual in the world, surpassed only by immortal monsters and entities of deific might. With the level range now being 1-30 instead of 1-20, making the Syberis mark available at level 20 isn't that huge a deal. And why can't it be a path to immortality should the player reach 30? It clearly plays a very important part in the Draconic Prophecy, one seemingly greater than all the other marks. You can't even have a Syberis mark if you already have a lesser one. Giving them at level 10 in 4E would be like giving them out at level 6 or 7 in 3.5. Not that it has to or even will work this way, but it's certainly workable.
#18 ieattrollsforbreakfast May 22, 2009 3:35:07	You had to be level 15+ before to get one. In 3.5 Eberron, that's is pretty darn up there. At that level you're essentially the highest level individual in the world, surpassed only by immortal monsters and entities of deific might. Actually, you could take your first level in the class at level 13. That's high enough to be considered among the best in Khorvaire, but you're not challenging immortal monsters and entities of deific might. It's roughly the level of the monarchs, barons, generals etc. that have made a name for themselves - movers and shakers, but not epic. I'm not so certain they'll just say "Use [Power], as the wizard power of the same name". There's lots of ways that can end up badly. Like, what if your Heir of Siberys is a half-elven mark of storm fighter? (*cough*). Your Daily attack, if based of a wizard attack, would key off Intelligence, instead of the much more beneficial Strength. Good point. I guess they could say 'choose the attack stat' or something, but I doubt they'd do that.
#19 AvonRekaes May 22, 2009 12:56:53	You had to be level 15+ before to get one. In 3.5 Eberron, that's is pretty darn up there. At that level you're essentially the highest level individual in the world, surpassed only by immortal monsters and entities of deific might. With the level range now being 1-30 instead of 1-20, making the Syberis mark available at level 20 isn't that huge a deal. And why can't it be a path to immortality should the player reach 30? It clearly plays a very important part in the Draconic Prophecy, one seemingly greater than all the other marks. You can't even have a Syberis mark if you already have a lesser one. Giving them at level 10 in 4E would be like giving them out at level 6 or 7 in 3.5. Not that it has to or even will work this way, but it's certainly workable. The level game doesn't really work all that well. Things were moved up and down the scale between 3 and 4e. But if you want to, let's take a look at a particular Eberron example: Mordain the Fleshweaver. In 3e, he was level 17ish, I believe. Now, he's been updated to low-epic, a level 21 Controller. And like Trolls pointed out, you could get into Heir of Siberys at level 13, not 15. That's five levels below 3e Mordain. Since the escale has gotten bigger in 3e, that should make the disparity between a fresh Siberys heir and Mordaine more like 7 levels than 5. So a Siberys heir should be right smack dab in the middle of Paragon. Again, though, this breaks down. Coming at it from another angle, you can look at Mind Flayers. In 3e, Mind Flayers were CR 8, now they're level 18. So you can say "Siberys heirs are about 5 levels higher than Mind Flayers in 3e, so they should be about 7 higher in 4e" And then Siberys heirs should be smack in the middle of epic. So, you see, the level game really breaks down. Any side could argue anything they wanted based purely on levels. I base my arguement for Paragon Siberys heirs because Siberys marks are not unique to PCs. I feel like Epic Destinies are, or at least an NPC that has one would be a huge deal in the setting and be one of the iconic personalities of that world. Like the Chosen of FR. Siberys marks are not that big a deal in Eberron. Sure, some of the personalities from the books might have them, like Gaven, but in-setting materials indicates that Siberys marks are merely powerful political movers and shakers. While the Draconic Prophecy might have more in store for Siberys marks, the "average" Siberys heir never follows through with this. Most Siberys heirs throughout Eberron's history were just leaders in their houses, and lived and died a mundane existance of wealth and influence. We can infer from the 3e book that Heirs of Siberys are rare but not unheard of. Throughout the Dragonmarked Houses history, there would have been more than just a handful. But we never hear about them. Instead we hear about stuff like Merrix d' Cannith the first, who invented Warforged, without a Siberys mark. Being Siberys marked isn't a road to immortality because we have evidence it isn't. The evidence is the complete lack of evidence of Siberys marked individuals who's lives and deeds were world-changing. Yes they had power, yes they had influence, but they were not Epic in scope. It would make more sense for a PC wanting to be a major part of the Prophecy to take an Heir of Siberys Paragon Path, and then the Champion of the Prophecy Epic Destiny we're going to get a preview of on June 8th.
#20 lyran May 22, 2009 14:41:01	I think what AvonRekaes said pretty much sums it up. Being a Heir of Siberys is something that should, and probably will, be a paragon path. Or maybe it won't be a paragon path at all. Maybe it will be just like regular Dragonmarks but with more perquisites. I find it interesting that although we will know in less than a month we still argue about it. It's like we’re trying to predict the future when the future is only an hour or so away. If as I said and The Heir of Siberys just turns out to be an elite version of regular Dragonmarks then how might it work out? Perhaps while the regular Dragonmarks will be something like what AvonRekaes is suggesting (Weapon Training), The Heir of Siberys will be like a multi-class only thing. I highly doubt this, though. I'm just tossing ideas around. Personally, I am more interested in what they will do with the ECS. They haven't really talked about it much. While they've peppered us with clues about the game mechanics they have pretty much left us in the dark about the ECS. Sure they've given us some ideas, but they haven't really talked about it as much as the game mechanics. Which they (Keith, James, and Bill) did not even design. All the more reason to suspect that they're hiding something big from us.
#21 AvonRekaes May 22, 2009 15:55:44	If Heir of Siberys weren't a paragon path, I could probably see it being done like Spellscar. Maybe just a whole bunch of powers, and a few that have specific requirements like "Must have the Siberys Mark of Storm". As for them hiding something big for the ECS, I really don't think so. They've told us that they aren't advancing the timeline, that they won't retcon whole nations or populations into the setting (IE, no "Zilargo is a nation of Dragonborn. The Dragonmark of Scribing was discovered among the dragonborn of that nation."), they said that they're highlighting parts of the world and setting that weren't given much attention before but were always there (tensions of the Last War just having ended), and that we can expect some new threats (something about a magebred human). I'm not really sure what they could suprise us with, other than tiny things we're already dying to know like "Where do the Dragonborn, Tieflings, and Deva fit?". And the answer shouldn't BE that suprising, hopefully.
#22 lyran May 23, 2009 14:36:00	I see what your saying. But I'm still more eager about the ECG. On what you said about the Heir of Siberys; my thoughts exactly.