The veracity of the Blood of Vol - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 Sacrament Nov 09, 2009 17:56:34	I was re-reading my eberron material during the last weeks (you know, preparing my games and all) and it appears (in my interpretation at least) that all the sourcebooks seem to paint the Blood of Vol as a "fake" religion with either corrupt undead who care nothign for the faith (the top of the BoV) and clueless peasants which just believe in inner divinity (the bottom of the BoV). But, wasn't the BoV based on ancient Qabalrin traditions that some Aereni chose to follow (Like the Vol family and others), so is there a basis of "truth" in the seeker religion, or is it just all lies? Does vol herself believe that the power of blood could be unlocked to make mortals "gods"? What about the crimson covenant? Plus, i always understood the BoV dogma to be very close to the ideals of the undying court, they have different means, but they both wish to transcend mortal life and reach divinity (how they do it is how they differ). I understand the BoV is a major political player (maybe more so than a theological one), but it would suck if this amazing religion (the most interesting of all the setting in my eyes) was nothing more than a front for a power hungry lich. So, what's your take on this. The BoV, fake religion only used for power, or a real religion that also happens to have a corrupt leadership? PS: I understand that Vol is more running the faith according to her own interest, and that many of the higher ups also spend few time fighting death and mortality, and more working for themselves, but all the churches have that level of corruption (except for Quori faiths), that doesn't make the general dogma of the religion any less genuine. PS2: Anyways, as the DM I can always decide how much of the BoV is pure machination and how much is ancient tradition looking to rid the world of mortality.
#2 focusgents Nov 09, 2009 22:01:21	I'd definitely agree with you. One of the big things that drew me to Eberron was the concept of faith. In other settings (pre 4e), gods would literally show up and do your dirty work, which is pretty simplistic. The first campaign guide made clear that faith was all that was necessary to have divine power, not the god. Vol is a great example of this. Belief in yourself and your blood is true, because you believe, no matter how crazy the people at the top are (cough* Christianity cough religious right *cough). Even though Erandis has twisted it to her means, I'm sure there are still some powerful and righteous believers who have never taken part in her machinations (probably because she knows they won't go along with her less ethical plans). An interesting plot line would be an almost completely benevolent sect arising within the faith, challenging her control of the faith. Finally, I have a lot of faith (weird how that word keeps popping up) in Keith, and I doubt when he wrote Vol up he meant for it to a throw-away "evil" religion.
#3 ellorin Nov 10, 2009 3:46:13	PS: I understand that Vol is more running the faith according to her own interest, and that many of the higher ups also spend few time fighting death and mortality, and more working for themselves, but all the churches have that level of corruption (except for Quori faiths), that doesn't make the general dogma of the religion any less genuine. Indeed. There is the Blood of Vol religion, based on ancient elven beliefs, and Vol's Queen of Death cult. That said, many 3,5 sources, especially the early ones, did treat the Queen of Death cult as the "true" faith.
#4 Hellcow Nov 10, 2009 3:48:45	One of the big things that drew me to Eberron was the concept of faith. That is the key. Are the teachings of the BoV true? Well, are those of the Silver Flame? Are those of the Sovereign Host? The BoV is as "true" as any of them - and like any of them, has a mix of true followers of the faith and corrupt priests who seek to abuse the faith of their followers for personal gain. The beliefs of the BoV may be entirely true. Or they may be delusional, and their faith is allowing them to tap into some other power source, just as a priest of the Sovereign Host may be channeling the will of Aureon or merely tapping into some primal energy source. As far as the Qabalrin are concerned... they did not practice the faith of the Blood of Vol as it is practiced on Khorvaire, which is why it's the Blood of Vol and not some Qabalrin sage. The Qabalrin were the first elves to experiment with negative energy necromancy. Refugees from the destruction of the Ring of Storms joined the elven exodus and formed what became the Line of Vol, and their knowledge played a role in Vol's approach to the essential elven question of how best to preserve their greatest souls. When the line of Vol was erradicated, their elven and dragonborn allies fled to Khorvaire, and brought these ideas with them... and the modern faith evolved from that. IMO, Erandis VOl wasn't even involved in establishing the faith; she laid very low for centuries to ensure that the Undying Court believed her to be dead. This is one reason why she's not too attached to the principles of the faith. It's inspired by the beliefs and actions of her family, but it wasn't their faith. Finally, I have a lot of faith (weird how that word keeps popping up) in Keith, and I doubt when he wrote Vol up he meant for it to a throw-away "evil" religion. My goal with the BoV, Sovereign Host, and Silver Flame was to have religions that have the same potential for depth and story as the faiths of our world. To have religions that are based on positive principles - religions where you can understand WHY a peasant might choose to follow it, not just a cleric or paladin - yet whose practices can be misinterpreted by outsiders, can spawn fear or prejudice, or inspire zealotry or extremism that the moderate follower would despise. Looking to the Blood of Vol, to the outsider it's a creepy death cult of undead lovers. But look closer and it's nothing of the sort. It's not a death cult; it reveres life and seeks to overcome death itself. It encourages community ties - stand together with your neighbor, because the universe itself is against us and in the end all we have is each other. It takes that vital question - Why would a just god allow suffering and death? - and asserts that he wouldn't, and that the answer is that the gods are our enemies - they kill us for their sport. While they associate with undead, they don't revere undead, nor does the typical follower want to BE undead; he wants the divinity that is his birthright, and you sacrifice any chance of getting that when you become undead. The sentient undead are martyrs and mentors, champions who have thrown away their chance at perfection in the hopes of guiding others to that future. Nonsentient undead reflect the idea that it is blood and soul that matters. A dead body is a dead body. Once the spark of life is gone, there's no reason to get too attached to the body. Beyond that, community is a key value, and it's the ultimate form of organ donorship - giving your body to your community after death, that you can continue to protect or serve your family and friends even when you have been taken from them. Erandis doesn't care about this. Many of her inner circle have no interest in this, and many of her undead servants became undead because they wanted personal power - not to champion a battle against the Sovereign Host. But the majority of BoV priests are true to the principles of their faith (hence the faith being unaligned in 4E). The Emerald Claw has a particularly high concentration of corrupt/self-serving priests... but the faith as a whole is as real as any other on Khorvaire; it's followers may even, on average, be more committed to the principles of their religion than the fairly casual faith of the Sovereigns.
#5 Hellcow Nov 10, 2009 3:52:02	That said, many 3,5 sources, especially the early ones, did treat the Queen of Death cult as the "true" faith. Yes. The 3.5 ECS presents the extremist/misguided faith of the Emerald Claw as more or less the basic principles of the BoV as a whole. Later sources do a better job of showcasing the depth of the religion. The BoV in Sharn sidebar in Sharn: City of Towers was closer to my original vision of the faith as a whole, and it's expanded on in later material.
#6 Sacrament Nov 10, 2009 7:51:14	Erandis doesn't care about this. Many of her inner circle have no interest in this, and many of her undead servants became undead because they wanted personal power - not to champion a battle against the Sovereign Host. But the majority of BoV priests are true to the principles of their faith (hence the faith being unaligned in 4E). The Emerald Claw has a particularly high concentration of corrupt/self-serving priests... but the faith as a whole is as real as any other on Khorvaire; it's followers may even, on average, be more committed to the principles of their religion than the fairly casual faith of the Sovereigns. That's what I thought: The BoV is "real" (as in, actually a religion and not just a front for a political machination) and it's just the upper heads that are corrupt. That makes me want to go ahead with my plan of having Kaius revealing himself as a vampire (gaining much sympathy from Karnns, of which most are seekers) and founding his own "protestant church" of the BoV. Pretty much based on this: "Erandis is really most interested in Erandis, and her schemes are more about regaining her mark or increasing her power than saving the entire world from the curse of death. This is why Sharn: City of Towers says that the people of Graywall don't know the true nature of their religion. Actually, they DO know the true nature - it's just that they don't realize that many powerful members of the church are abusing their trust, placing the desires of Erandis over the supposed tenets of the faith. This could, ultimately, lead to a schism in the church if another powerful undead champion... say, a powerful vampire who can also command loyalty through nationalistic ties... were to openly challenge Erandis and claim that she is a false champion. The Order of the Emerald Claw are Erandis' personal followers, and they place her desires over all else; but other members of the Blood of Vol could, in time, come to question the Queen of Death." (From: www.karrnathishadows.com/BloodofVol.html)
#7 Madfox11 Nov 11, 2009 4:01:10	While such a move by Kaius might endear him to the local populace, it would have the opposite effect on the rest of the world. The Silver Flame would likely use it as an excuse to invade Karnath, and probably rally the other nations. Nobody would want to talk with Kaius, and everything he does becomes very suspect since he feeds on humans and can dominate them with a mere gaze. Granted, many such fears would be somewhat irrational since a ruler does not need to be a vampire to do dreadful things. Of course, one of the biggest fears would be to have an immortal ruler. Kaius apparently wants peace, and revealing his true nature would have the exact opposite effect.
#8 Sacrament Nov 11, 2009 7:01:54	While such a move by Kaius might endear him to the local populace, it would have the opposite effect on the rest of the world. The Silver Flame would likely use it as an excuse to invade Karnath, and probably rally the other nations. Nobody would want to talk with Kaius, and everything he does becomes very suspect since he feeds on humans and can dominate them with a mere gaze. Granted, many such fears would be somewhat irrational since a ruler does not need to be a vampire to do dreadful things. Of course, one of the biggest fears would be to have an immortal ruler. I've always thought a united front of nations against another in Khorvaire was highly unlikely. Let's see what could happen: Thrane goes on an anti-Karnnath crusade, while the bulk of their army is off fighting in Kaius land, Aundair sees the opportunity to "reclaim" Thaliost. Same for Breland, sending a sizeable force to Karrnath would leave their border with Droaam and Darguun unguarded, and of all the nations of Khorvaire, Karnnath enjoys the closest relations with Droaam and Dargun and they could easely be swayed into attacking Breland. Zilargo, meh... they'll just talk Kaius to death I guess. Valenar is already at war with them technically. The Laazhaar princes might actually support a country ruled by an undead follower of the blood of vol. As for the Mrror Holds, I have no idea how they would react? Although, I admit that Kaius probably would want to extend his zone of influence and find more allies and secure Karnnath's position before revealing himself. (Or stepping down from the throne before revealing himself). Kaius apparently wants peace, and revealing his true nature would have the exact opposite effect. I remember reading somewhere, and I'm pretty sure it was a WoTC source. That Kaius wanted peace mainly because he knew "something" (implied to be from the cults of the dragon below or the lords of dust) was coming and he needed the whole ressources of a nation to be able to fight it. Anyone seen this elsewhere, or i'm just making stuff up?
#9 Sacrament Nov 11, 2009 7:03:30	That said, many 3,5 sources, especially the early ones, did treat the Queen of Death cult as the "true" faith. Yes. The 3.5 ECS presents the extremist/misguided faith of the Emerald Claw as more or less the basic principles of the BoV as a whole. Later sources do a better job of showcasing the depth of the religion. The BoV in Sharn sidebar in Sharn: City of Towers was closer to my original vision of the faith as a whole, and it's expanded on in later material. That's closer to my vision too. In fact, maybe I'll have Vol "removed" from the BoV (though not from the world, just lose her position in the faith) and replaced by another, more dedicated head of the faith.
#10 ellorin Nov 11, 2009 7:24:27	That said, many 3,5 sources, especially the early ones, did treat the Queen of Death cult as the "true" faith. Yes. The 3.5 ECS presents the extremist/misguided faith of the Emerald Claw as more or less the basic principles of the BoV as a whole. Later sources do a better job of showcasing the depth of the religion. The BoV in Sharn sidebar in Sharn: City of Towers was closer to my original vision of the faith as a whole, and it's expanded on in later material. That's closer to my vision too. In fact, maybe I'll have Vol "removed" from the BoV (though not from the world, just lose her position in the faith) and replaced by another, more dedicated head of the faith. Now there's an epic destiny.
#11 Hellcow Nov 11, 2009 23:59:18	That's closer to my vision too. In fact, maybe I'll have Vol "removed" from the BoV (though not from the world, just lose her position in the faith) and replaced by another, more dedicated head of the faith. I'm not sure I follow. Erandis Vol isn't the spiritual leader of the Blood of Vol. At the moment, the most respected priest in the faith proper is Malevenor, the high priest in Atur. The overwhelming majority of the BoV faithful have no idea Erandis exists. If they did, they would view her as a great undead champion, doubly so due to her ties to the line of Vol, and many would likely place trust in her. But, in terms of the actual, recognized hierarchy of the church, Erandis has no place in it and isn't even known to exist. With that said, she IS the unquestioned leader of a fanatical subsect of the faith. But the activities and heirarchy of that sect are not known to the common faithful, nor supported by them. So I'm just saying that there IS a publicly recognized, dedicated head of the faith... Malevenor. He spends his days in the temple in Atur tending to the spiritual needs of his flock and spreading the word. He's not out to conquer the world or turn everyone into zombies. To put it in a modern analogy, Malevenor is the pontiff, while Erandis is the charismatic leader of a terrorist cell that has its roots in the same faith. She uses the faith to recruit her followers, and her followers are fanatics who serve her without question... but if she just popped up in Atur, she would have to establish her credentials and win people over. She might be able to do just that she's powerful, brilliant, and charismatic. But Malevenor is the high priest in Atur; Erandis is a legend hidden away on a distant island. And while she's won over the people of the EC, that's because she's specifically recruited people who will fall for her message. There are certainly those in the BoV faithful who would want to know how the things she's doing further the goals of the faith. Again, the EC often takes evil actions - but the faith is not evil.
#12 Hellcow Nov 12, 2009 0:04:43	And just in case the point has gotten lost again... it's called "The Blood of Vol" because of its roots in the beliefs of the LINE of Vol, not because of any connection to Erandis herself. The people who fplanted the seeds of the faith in Khorvaire were allies of the line of Vol, but they truly believed that the line had been utterly exterminated; Erandis remained in hiding for centuries before she began to extend her influence beyond Farlnen. So the name carries power, and it gives her a foothold in the hearts of seekers. But it does not command obedience, and seekers who learn of her existence may question her actions after they get over their initial wonder.
#13 lonewolf Nov 12, 2009 10:17:28	I always assumed that while Malevenor is the recognized leader of the church, that he is nothing but a puppet of Erandis who is pulling the strings behind the curtain. But this is also a very interesting way of looking at it.
#14 Sacrament Nov 12, 2009 12:17:34	I always assumed that while Malevenor is the recognized leader of the church, that he is nothing but a puppet of Erandis who is pulling the strings behind the curtain. But this is also a very interesting way of looking at it. Same for me. I never saw him as the head of the church proper doesn't he only get only a small writeup in Five Nations? Although it does make sense to have him as the High priest of the church. But Hellcow's posts really cleared it up for me (thanks a lot by the way). I feel it's just that there is so much to the BoV and so much going in that faith (compared, say, to the sovereign host) and church, spread over so many sourcebooks that it can get pretty confusing at times.
#15 Hellcow Nov 12, 2009 13:09:15	I always assumed that while Malevenor is the recognized leader of the church, that he is nothing but a puppet of Erandis who is pulling the strings behind the curtain. I see the source of the confusion... the hierarchy section of Faiths of Eberron places Erandis at the top. Per FoE, Malevanor is a member of the Crimson Covenant, and described as having contact with Erandis. Even bearing that in mind, there's two things I'd say to that. Malevanor may report to Erandis. But he's not a member of the Emerald Claw. He's a priest of the Blood of Vol, and one who has risen up through the ranks of the faithful. The fact that Erandis has convinced him that it is in his best interests and those of the faith to report to her and heed her advice doesn't mean that HE cares nothing for the faith and is using it to manipulate his followers, as Erandis does. Erandis is brilliant and charismatic, and she IS the last surviving heir of the Vol bloodline, which should inspire awe in the Seekers. So personally, I see Malevanor as a true Seeker, concerned with spreading the faith, helping his flock reach within, and someday defeating the Sovereigns themselves; he simply believes that Erandis is the greatest undead champion the faith has seen, and that in reporting to her and heeding her words, he is advancing the goals of the faith. He's not a fanatic like the members of the Emerald Claw, nor a power-hungry opportunist like Demise. He reflects the fact that Erandis is a cunning and charismatic manipulator who can fool smart people into serving her ends - just as she originally tricked Kaius. But I think that Malevanor is a good example of someone who could turn against Erandis if she was clearly exposed as acting against the interests of the faith... though bear in mind that he also knows exacylu how powerful she is and that she could destroy him if he defied her. So he's in a tight spot. This could actually lead him to come to the PCs and offer them information to help them against Vol. Alternately, if Kaius were to embrace the faith and declare himself to be a champion of it, Malevanor might throw his support to the king. Second... Per FoE, Erandis is at the top of the hierarchy. But the vital thing is that outside of the Crimson Covenant, no one knows it. She's not the Keeper of the Silver Flame; she's hidden on a shrouded castle in the east. To the degree that her name is known, it's through the EC,,, and even there, she's known as "The Queen of the Dead", not "Erandis Vol." Remember that her line was wiped out, and the Undying Court and Light of Siberys would both be happy to wipe her out. Since she can't use her mark or pass it on, they aren't TOO worried - but there's surely dragons or agents of the Deathguard who would love to deal with her just to tie up loose ends. So she's SECRETLY influencing the Abactors, secretly in contact with members of the Crimson Covenant... but as far as the faithful are concerned, the high priests are the leaders of the faith. And as noted above, many of those high priests may be entirely devoted to the principles of the faith. The fact that some of them are part of the Crimson Covenant and doesn't automatically mean that they are corrupt manipulators (though some are, like any of the faiths of Eberron); it means Erandis has convinced them that she has the best interests of the faith at heart. As for Kaius revealing he's a vampire... I agree that Thrane can't afford to make a unilateral assault on Karrnath with Aundair still hungry to reclaim lost land. However, it's not merely Thrane that would be concerned about this. The Silver Flame has followers in Aundair and Breland as well; in fact, most of the most zealous members of the Pure Flame are from Aundair. Beyond that, vampires don't get much love from followers of the Sovereign Host, either; the paladins of Dol Arrah seek to spread her light into dark places, and hey, vampires can't bear that light. And while Aurala would love to strike a weakened Thrane, the downfall of Karrnath puts her one step closer to her true goal of ruling a unified Galifar - far more important than just snatching Thaliost. So I could see her supporting a renewed conflict with Karrnath... supporting Thrane in this but letting them do most of the heavy lifting, so that when it's over both are weak enough for her to make her move. Beyond this... it's a move that would win Kaius support of followers of the BoV. But what about those followers of the Sovereign Host in Karrnath? What about those warlords who chafe under his rule and have been looking for an excuse to usurp the throne? It would be an interesting move, but a very dangerous one, and I think it's just a question of which domino chain would be triggered.

Post/Author/DateTime

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Sacrament

Nov 09, 2009 17:56:34

I was re-reading my eberron material during the last weeks (you know, preparing my games and all) and it appears (in my interpretation at least) that all the sourcebooks seem to paint the Blood of Vol as a "fake" religion with either corrupt undead who care nothign for the faith (the top of the BoV) and clueless peasants which just believe in inner divinity (the bottom of the BoV).

But, wasn't the BoV based on ancient Qabalrin traditions that some Aereni chose to follow (Like the Vol family and others), so is there a basis of "truth" in the seeker religion, or is it just all lies? Does vol herself believe that the power of blood could be unlocked to make mortals "gods"? What about the crimson covenant?
Plus, i always understood the BoV dogma to be very close to the ideals of the undying court, they have different means, but they both wish to transcend mortal life and reach divinity (how they do it is how they differ).

I understand the BoV is a major political player (maybe more so than a theological one), but it would suck if this amazing religion (the most interesting of all the setting in my eyes) was nothing more than a front for a power hungry lich. So, what's your take on this. The BoV, fake religion only used for power, or a real religion that also happens to have a corrupt leadership?

PS: I understand that Vol is more running the faith according to her own interest, and that many of the higher ups also spend few time fighting death and mortality, and more working for themselves, but all the churches have that level of corruption (except for Quori faiths), that doesn't make the general dogma of the religion any less genuine.

PS2: Anyways, as the DM I can always decide how much of the BoV is pure machination and how much is ancient tradition looking to rid the world of mortality.

focusgents

Nov 09, 2009 22:01:21

I'd definitely agree with you. One of the big things that drew me to Eberron was the concept of faith. In other settings (pre 4e), gods would literally show up and do your dirty work, which is pretty simplistic. The first campaign guide made clear that faith was all that was necessary to have divine power, not the god.

Vol is a great example of this. Belief in yourself and your blood is true, because you believe, no matter how crazy the people at the top are (cough* Christianity *cough* religious right *cough). Even though Erandis has twisted it to her means, I'm sure there are still some powerful and righteous believers who have never taken part in her machinations (probably because she knows they won't go along with her less ethical plans). An interesting plot line would be an almost completely benevolent sect arising within the faith, challenging her control of the faith.

Finally, I have a lot of faith (weird how that word keeps popping up) in Keith, and I doubt when he wrote Vol up he meant for it to a throw-away "evil" religion.

ellorin

Nov 10, 2009 3:46:13

PS: I understand that Vol is more running the faith according to her own interest, and that many of the higher ups also spend few time fighting death and mortality, and more working for themselves, but all the churches have that level of corruption (except for Quori faiths), that doesn't make the general dogma of the religion any less genuine.

Indeed. There is the Blood of Vol religion, based on ancient elven beliefs, and Vol's Queen of Death cult. That said, many 3,5 sources, especially the early ones, did treat the Queen of Death cult as the "true" faith.

Hellcow

Nov 10, 2009 3:48:45

One of the big things that drew me to Eberron was the concept of faith.

That is the key. Are the teachings of the BoV true? Well, are those of the Silver Flame? Are those of the Sovereign Host? The BoV is as "true" as any of them - and like any of them, has a mix of true followers of the faith and corrupt priests who seek to abuse the faith of their followers for personal gain. The beliefs of the BoV may be entirely true. Or they may be delusional, and their faith is allowing them to tap into some other power source, just as a priest of the Sovereign Host may be channeling the will of Aureon or merely tapping into some primal energy source.

As far as the Qabalrin are concerned... they did not practice the faith of the Blood of Vol as it is practiced on Khorvaire, which is why it's the Blood of Vol and not some Qabalrin sage. The Qabalrin were the first elves to experiment with negative energy necromancy. Refugees from the destruction of the Ring of Storms joined the elven exodus and formed what became the Line of Vol, and their knowledge played a role in Vol's approach to the essential elven question of how best to preserve their greatest souls. When the line of Vol was erradicated, their elven and dragonborn allies fled to Khorvaire, and brought these ideas with them... and the modern faith evolved from that. IMO, Erandis VOl wasn't even involved in establishing the faith; she laid very low for centuries to ensure that the Undying Court believed her to be dead. This is one reason why she's not too attached to the principles of the faith. It's inspired by the beliefs and actions of her family, but it wasn't their faith.

Finally, I have a lot of faith (weird how that word keeps popping up) in Keith, and I doubt when he wrote Vol up he meant for it to a throw-away "evil" religion.

My goal with the BoV, Sovereign Host, and Silver Flame was to have religions that have the same potential for depth and story as the faiths of our world. To have religions that are based on positive principles - religions where you can understand WHY a peasant might choose to follow it, not just a cleric or paladin - yet whose practices can be misinterpreted by outsiders, can spawn fear or prejudice, or inspire zealotry or extremism that the moderate follower would despise. Looking to the Blood of Vol, to the outsider it's a creepy death cult of undead lovers. But look closer and it's nothing of the sort. It's not a death cult; it reveres life and seeks to overcome death itself. It encourages community ties - stand together with your neighbor, because the universe itself is against us and in the end all we have is each other. It takes that vital question - Why would a just god allow suffering and death? - and asserts that he wouldn't, and that the answer is that the gods are our enemies - they kill us for their sport. While they associate with undead, they don't revere undead, nor does the typical follower want to BE undead; he wants the divinity that is his birthright, and you sacrifice any chance of getting that when you become undead. The sentient undead are martyrs and mentors, champions who have thrown away their chance at perfection in the hopes of guiding others to that future. Nonsentient undead reflect the idea that it is blood and soul that matters. A dead body is a dead body. Once the spark of life is gone, there's no reason to get too attached to the body. Beyond that, community is a key value, and it's the ultimate form of organ donorship - giving your body to your community after death, that you can continue to protect or serve your family and friends even when you have been taken from them.

Erandis doesn't care about this. Many of her inner circle have no interest in this, and many of her undead servants became undead because they wanted personal power - not to champion a battle against the Sovereign Host. But the majority of BoV priests are true to the principles of their faith (hence the faith being unaligned in 4E). The Emerald Claw has a particularly high concentration of corrupt/self-serving priests... but the faith as a whole is as real as any other on Khorvaire; it's followers may even, on average, be more committed to the principles of their religion than the fairly casual faith of the Sovereigns.

Hellcow

Nov 10, 2009 3:52:02

That said, many 3,5 sources, especially the early ones, did treat the Queen of Death cult as the "true" faith.

Yes. The 3.5 ECS presents the extremist/misguided faith of the Emerald Claw as more or less the basic principles of the BoV as a whole. Later sources do a better job of showcasing the depth of the religion. The BoV in Sharn sidebar in Sharn: City of Towers was closer to my original vision of the faith as a whole, and it's expanded on in later material.

Sacrament

Nov 10, 2009 7:51:14

Erandis doesn't care about this. Many of her inner circle have no interest in this, and many of her undead servants became undead because they wanted personal power - not to champion a battle against the Sovereign Host. But the majority of BoV priests are true to the principles of their faith (hence the faith being unaligned in 4E). The Emerald Claw has a particularly high concentration of corrupt/self-serving priests... but the faith as a whole is as real as any other on Khorvaire; it's followers may even, on average, be more committed to the principles of their religion than the fairly casual faith of the Sovereigns.

That's what I thought: The BoV is "real" (as in, actually a religion and not just a front for a political machination) and it's just the upper heads that are corrupt.

That makes me want to go ahead with my plan of having Kaius revealing himself as a vampire (gaining much sympathy from Karnns, of which most are seekers) and founding his own "protestant church" of the BoV. Pretty much based on this:

"Erandis is really most interested in Erandis, and her schemes are more about regaining her mark or increasing her power than saving the entire world from the curse of death. This is why Sharn: City of Towers says that the people of Graywall don't know the true nature of their religion. Actually, they DO know the true nature - it's just that they don't realize that many powerful members of the church are abusing their trust, placing the desires of Erandis over the supposed tenets of the faith. This could, ultimately, lead to a schism in the church if another powerful undead champion... say, a powerful vampire who can also command loyalty through nationalistic ties... were to openly challenge Erandis and claim that she is a false champion. The Order of the Emerald Claw are Erandis' personal followers, and they place her desires over all else; but other members of the Blood of Vol could, in time, come to question the Queen of Death."

(From: www.karrnathishadows.com/BloodofVol.html)

Madfox11

Nov 11, 2009 4:01:10

While such a move by Kaius might endear him to the local populace, it would have the opposite effect on the rest of the world. The Silver Flame would likely use it as an excuse to invade Karnath, and probably rally the other nations. Nobody would want to talk with Kaius, and everything he does becomes very suspect since he feeds on humans and can dominate them with a mere gaze. Granted, many such fears would be somewhat irrational since a ruler does not need to be a vampire to do dreadful things. Of course, one of the biggest fears would be to have an immortal ruler. Kaius apparently wants peace, and revealing his true nature would have the exact opposite effect.

Sacrament

Nov 11, 2009 7:01:54

While such a move by Kaius might endear him to the local populace, it would have the opposite effect on the rest of the world. The Silver Flame would likely use it as an excuse to invade Karnath, and probably rally the other nations. Nobody would want to talk with Kaius, and everything he does becomes very suspect since he feeds on humans and can dominate them with a mere gaze. Granted, many such fears would be somewhat irrational since a ruler does not need to be a vampire to do dreadful things. Of course, one of the biggest fears would be to have an immortal ruler.

I've always thought a united front of nations against another in Khorvaire was highly unlikely. Let's see what could happen:

Thrane goes on an anti-Karnnath crusade, while the bulk of their army is off fighting in Kaius land, Aundair sees the opportunity to "reclaim" Thaliost.
Same for Breland, sending a sizeable force to Karrnath would leave their border with Droaam and Darguun unguarded, and of all the nations of Khorvaire, Karnnath enjoys the closest relations with Droaam and Dargun and they could easely be swayed into attacking Breland.
Zilargo, meh... they'll just talk Kaius to death I guess.
Valenar is already at war with them technically.
The Laazhaar princes might actually support a country ruled by an undead follower of the blood of vol.
As for the Mrror Holds, I have no idea how they would react?

Although, I admit that Kaius probably would want to extend his zone of influence and find more allies and secure Karnnath's position before revealing himself.

(Or stepping down from the throne before revealing himself).

Kaius apparently wants peace, and revealing his true nature would have the exact opposite effect.

I remember reading somewhere, and I'm pretty sure it was a WoTC source. That Kaius wanted peace mainly because he knew "something" (implied to be from the cults of the dragon below or the lords of dust) was coming and he needed the whole ressources of a nation to be able to fight it.

Anyone seen this elsewhere, or i'm just making stuff up?

Sacrament

Nov 11, 2009 7:03:30

That said, many 3,5 sources, especially the early ones, did treat the Queen of Death cult as the "true" faith.

Yes. The 3.5 ECS presents the extremist/misguided faith of the Emerald Claw as more or less the basic principles of the BoV as a whole. Later sources do a better job of showcasing the depth of the religion. The BoV in Sharn sidebar in Sharn: City of Towers was closer to my original vision of the faith as a whole, and it's expanded on in later material.

That's closer to my vision too. In fact, maybe I'll have Vol "removed" from the BoV (though not from the world, just lose her position in the faith) and replaced by another, more dedicated head of the faith.

#10

ellorin

Nov 11, 2009 7:24:27

That said, many 3,5 sources, especially the early ones, did treat the Queen of Death cult as the "true" faith.

Yes. The 3.5 ECS presents the extremist/misguided faith of the Emerald Claw as more or less the basic principles of the BoV as a whole. Later sources do a better job of showcasing the depth of the religion. The BoV in Sharn sidebar in Sharn: City of Towers was closer to my original vision of the faith as a whole, and it's expanded on in later material.

That's closer to my vision too. In fact, maybe I'll have Vol "removed" from the BoV (though not from the world, just lose her position in the faith) and replaced by another, more dedicated head of the faith.

Now there's an epic destiny.

#11

Hellcow

Nov 11, 2009 23:59:18

That's closer to my vision too. In fact, maybe I'll have Vol "removed" from the BoV (though not from the world, just lose her position in the faith) and replaced by another, more dedicated head of the faith.

I'm not sure I follow. Erandis Vol isn't the spiritual leader of the Blood of Vol. At the moment, the most respected priest in the faith proper is Malevenor, the high priest in Atur. The overwhelming majority of the BoV faithful have no idea Erandis exists. If they did, they would view her as a great undead champion, doubly so due to her ties to the line of Vol, and many would likely place trust in her. But, in terms of the actual, recognized hierarchy of the church, Erandis has no place in it and isn't even known to exist.

With that said, she IS the unquestioned leader of a fanatical subsect of the faith. But the activities and heirarchy of that sect are not known to the common faithful, nor supported by them.

So I'm just saying that there IS a publicly recognized, dedicated head of the faith... Malevenor. He spends his days in the temple in Atur tending to the spiritual needs of his flock and spreading the word. He's not out to conquer the world or turn everyone into zombies. To put it in a modern analogy, Malevenor is the pontiff, while Erandis is the charismatic leader of a terrorist cell that has its roots in the same faith. She uses the faith to recruit her followers, and her followers are fanatics who serve her without question... but if she just popped up in Atur, she would have to establish her credentials and win people over. She might be able to do just that she's powerful, brilliant, and charismatic. But Malevenor is the high priest in Atur; Erandis is a legend hidden away on a distant island. And while she's won over the people of the EC, that's because she's specifically recruited people who will fall for her message. There are certainly those in the BoV faithful who would want to know how the things she's doing further the goals of the faith. Again, the EC often takes evil actions - but the faith is not evil.

#12

Hellcow

Nov 12, 2009 0:04:43

And just in case the point has gotten lost again... it's called "The Blood of Vol" because of its roots in the beliefs of the LINE of Vol, not because of any connection to Erandis herself. The people who fplanted the seeds of the faith in Khorvaire were allies of the line of Vol, but they truly believed that the line had been utterly exterminated; Erandis remained in hiding for centuries before she began to extend her influence beyond Farlnen. So the name carries power, and it gives her a foothold in the hearts of seekers. But it does not command obedience, and seekers who learn of her existence may question her actions after they get over their initial wonder.

#13

lonewolf

Nov 12, 2009 10:17:28

I always assumed that while Malevenor is the recognized leader of the church, that he is nothing but a puppet of Erandis who is pulling the strings behind the curtain. But this is also a very interesting way of looking at it.

#14

Sacrament

Nov 12, 2009 12:17:34

I always assumed that while Malevenor is the recognized leader of the church, that he is nothing but a puppet of Erandis who is pulling the strings behind the curtain. But this is also a very interesting way of looking at it.

Same for me. I never saw him as the head of the church proper doesn't he only get only a small writeup in Five Nations? Although it does make sense to have him as the High priest of the church.

But Hellcow's posts really cleared it up for me (thanks a lot by the way). I feel it's just that there is so much to the BoV and so much going in that faith (compared, say, to the sovereign host) and church, spread over so many sourcebooks that it can get pretty confusing at times.

#15

Hellcow

Nov 12, 2009 13:09:15

I always assumed that while Malevenor is the recognized leader of the church, that he is nothing but a puppet of Erandis who is pulling the strings behind the curtain.

I see the source of the confusion... the hierarchy section of Faiths of Eberron places Erandis at the top. Per FoE, Malevanor is a member of the Crimson Covenant, and described as having contact with Erandis. Even bearing that in mind, there's two things I'd say to that.

Malevanor may report to Erandis. But he's not a member of the Emerald Claw. He's a priest of the Blood of Vol, and one who has risen up through the ranks of the faithful. The fact that Erandis has convinced him that it is in his best interests and those of the faith to report to her and heed her advice doesn't mean that HE cares nothing for the faith and is using it to manipulate his followers, as Erandis does. Erandis is brilliant and charismatic, and she IS the last surviving heir of the Vol bloodline, which should inspire awe in the Seekers. So personally, I see Malevanor as a true Seeker, concerned with spreading the faith, helping his flock reach within, and someday defeating the Sovereigns themselves; he simply believes that Erandis is the greatest undead champion the faith has seen, and that in reporting to her and heeding her words, he is advancing the goals of the faith. He's not a fanatic like the members of the Emerald Claw, nor a power-hungry opportunist like Demise. He reflects the fact that Erandis is a cunning and charismatic manipulator who can fool smart people into serving her ends - just as she originally tricked Kaius. But I think that Malevanor is a good example of someone who could turn against Erandis if she was clearly exposed as acting against the interests of the faith... though bear in mind that he also knows exacylu how powerful she is and that she could destroy him if he defied her. So he's in a tight spot. This could actually lead him to come to the PCs and offer them information to help them against Vol. Alternately, if Kaius were to embrace the faith and declare himself to be a champion of it, Malevanor might throw his support to the king.

Second... Per FoE, Erandis is at the top of the hierarchy. But the vital thing is that outside of the Crimson Covenant, no one knows it. She's not the Keeper of the Silver Flame; she's hidden on a shrouded castle in the east. To the degree that her name is known, it's through the EC,,, and even there, she's known as "The Queen of the Dead", not "Erandis Vol." Remember that her line was wiped out, and the Undying Court and Light of Siberys would both be happy to wipe her out. Since she can't use her mark or pass it on, they aren't TOO worried - but there's surely dragons or agents of the Deathguard who would love to deal with her just to tie up loose ends. So she's SECRETLY influencing the Abactors, secretly in contact with members of the Crimson Covenant... but as far as the faithful are concerned, the high priests are the leaders of the faith. And as noted above, many of those high priests may be entirely devoted to the principles of the faith. The fact that some of them are part of the Crimson Covenant and doesn't automatically mean that they are corrupt manipulators (though some are, like any of the faiths of Eberron); it means Erandis has convinced them that she has the best interests of the faith at heart.

As for Kaius revealing he's a vampire... I agree that Thrane can't afford to make a unilateral assault on Karrnath with Aundair still hungry to reclaim lost land. However, it's not merely Thrane that would be concerned about this. The Silver Flame has followers in Aundair and Breland as well; in fact, most of the most zealous members of the Pure Flame are from Aundair. Beyond that, vampires don't get much love from followers of the Sovereign Host, either; the paladins of Dol Arrah seek to spread her light into dark places, and hey, vampires can't bear that light. And while Aurala would love to strike a weakened Thrane, the downfall of Karrnath puts her one step closer to her true goal of ruling a unified Galifar - far more important than just snatching Thaliost. So I could see her supporting a renewed conflict with Karrnath... supporting Thrane in this but letting them do most of the heavy lifting, so that when it's over both are weak enough for her to make her move.

Beyond this... it's a move that would win Kaius support of followers of the BoV. But what about those followers of the Sovereign Host in Karrnath? What about those warlords who chafe under his rule and have been looking for an excuse to usurp the throne? It would be an interesting move, but a very dangerous one, and I think it's just a question of which domino chain would be triggered.