Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Syltorian Apr 04, 2013 7:30:44	I was wondering about some of the inhabitants of these two planes. Lamannia is described as a realm of wild, untouched nature. Thelanis is a mysterious realm of legends and magic, and strongly associated with the fey, all shown very nicely in Keith Baker's Gates of Night novel.  Now, I was wondering about some of the fey creatures which have not only exceptionally strong ties to nature, but ties that actually define them. These would, in the 3.5 Monster Manual, largely be the dryad and, to a lesser extend, the nymph. Both are put, per the 3.5. ECS, in Thelanis (p.99), which fits considering the strong mystical flavour and real-world legends about these nature spirits. Wood and water spirits were, after all, famous for charming people, drawing them into a world where time worked differently, and for being utterly unpredictable, helpful at one time, but using terrifying curses at others. That fits Thelanis superbly. Yet the dryad is tied to a tree, the nymph has a strong relationship with a lake, both of which seem connected to Lamannia. So I was wondering how people go about this. Is it possible for creature to be connected to two planes at the same time? Say, a dryad being created when Thelanis touches an exceptional tree? Where do nature spirits - your traditional Greek river-gods[1], for instance, who are equally mystical (Thelanis) and naturebound (Lamannia) fit in? Many thanks! [1] N.b. On Eberron, they would naturally not be gods, though, like Radiant Idols, could get themselves worshipped as such by intent or accident (as the Greensingers do, though not under the label of god).
#2 Hellcow Apr 04, 2013 10:16:21	Personally, I focus on Lamannia as being about primal nature: iconic entities and elemental forms. While the Greensingers would take issue with this, in my opinion the Fey of Thelanis aren't part of nature... not even the dryad. The Fey are the magic we wish was in the world. The dryad is the spirit we want the tree to have, when we see the slender willow and think of it as a beautiful woman. But again, there's nothing natural about a tree having a spirit that resembles a human woman; it's something magical, a story we want to believe. For me, this is what Thelanis is. The realm of stories. The realm of the magic we want in the world. The Fey reflect hopes, fears, secret and subconscious desires. By contrast, Lamannia is pure and inhuman nature. There is nothing human about the primal tree of Lamannia; but it is the healthiest, most vibrant tree of its type you can possibly imagine. Rather than attaching a naiad to a stream, I'll put a water elemental in there: sentient on some level, but completely inhuman. The first adventure I ran in Lamannia was when a group of adventurers were stranded there; the airship they were on passed through an airborne manifest zone, and when they entered the plane the bound elemental instantly broke free. They crashed in what seemed to be a sizable canyon. As they started to explore, the captain of the vessel was snatched away by a roc; the group sniped at it, but they were low-level characters and couldn't really touch a roc. As the roc cleared the top of the canyon, IT was snatched up by a lynx... a lynx that was over two miles from tip to tail, which just leapt over their "canyon" in a single bound. At that moment they realized just how small they were in this place... how small they were in the pure face of nature. Needless to say, they dealt with the things on their scale in that canyon... the survivors of other crashed ships, a community of lycanthropes who escaped the Purge by fleeing to Lamannia, elemental forces, etc. But again, to me, the key to Lamannia is that there is nothing HUMAN or anthropomorphic about its native inhabitants; it's pure, primal nature.
#3 Syltorian Apr 13, 2013 11:34:21	Sorry for taking so long to respond. It has been a busy week, and your answers deserve more than a quick thanks - though a thank you is absolutely necessary!  Personally, I focus on Lamannia as being about primal nature: iconic entities and elemental forms. While the Greensingers would take issue with this, in my opinion the Fey of Thelanis aren't part of nature... not even the dryad. The Fey are the magic we wish was in the world. The dryad is the spirit we want the tree to have, when we see the slender willow and think of it as a beautiful woman. But again, there's nothing natural about a tree having a spirit that resembles a human woman; it's something magical, a story we want to believe. For me, this is what Thelanis is. The realm of stories. The realm of the magic we want in the world. The Fey reflect hopes, fears, secret and subconscious desires. This clears up my problems. Thank you! Although one question remains: whose stories does Thelanis embody? The fey we use in D&D are, by necessity, built around human stories, hopes, fears, etc. But the planes pre-date the mortal races, even the dragons and the (immortal) rakshasa. So, was Thelanis at first simply an empty plane filled with potential, and got populated by and by? Which would mean that somewhere at its core, there are things embodying the fears and hopes of the races of the Age of Demons. Does Thelanis grow and change with the stories, once enough people on Eberron believe in them (whilst also influencing them, if someone stumbles into the easily-reachable Faerie Court - as seems to be suggested (by one of the characters, Daine, IIRC, never explicitely by you, of course in Gates of Night, and in the tale of Marusan in the Fading Dream)?  Would you go as far as, say, Terry Pratchett in the Discworld novels, to say that some forces in Thelanis could and do try to shape stories: make sure the poor, exploited girl marries the prince; make sure there are birds to eat the breadcrumbs left behind by Hänsel and Gretel? At least, when Thelanis is close, and perhaps as a way to survive (in a fashion similar to the Quori trying to prevent the Turn of the Age). Other agencies trying to guide the path of the future would probably get rather exasperated at such "flighty" interference with whatever preferred path of the Prophecy they seek to realise. By contrast, Lamannia is pure and inhuman nature. There is nothing human about the primal tree of Lamannia; but it is the healthiest, most vibrant tree of its type you can possibly imagine. Rather than attaching a naiad to a stream, I'll put a water elemental in there: sentient on some level, but completely inhuman. So to check if I got this: A naiad (or equivalent water-fey) in the river would represent the beauty, freshness, but also capriciousness of the stream, rather than its being a natural feature. It can demand offerings, get angry if observed, lure people their death, fall desperatly in love, and do all those things which stories tell about them, and which cause people even today to throw coins into fountains. Whereas a water elemental would just be the river, in a sense, and care neither about offerings thrown into it, nor about mills and bridges (as fey do, one way or another, in the stories), just so long as it can flow - even if it might destroy those same mills because it feels like rushing too strongly - no more opinionated, or open to reason, than an actual river would be. This leaves me with some problem regarding those elementals which are largely described as having very human-like traits, and motivations that go beyond the purely natural. The avatars of Elemental Evil (and Good) would be the biggest ones; Lamannia, as nature, seems to not care about good or evil, and if there are Lords of Lamannia, they would only "rule" because they happen to be the toughest things around, but not necessarily of more than animal intelligence (as the Lion is considered King of Animals). Then there are the Elemental Wierds: granted, they are alien, but with interests and connections to divinatory magic which was believed to reside in the elements by many cultures: would their ties make them fey rather than elementals? The first adventure I ran in Lamannia was when a group of adventurers were stranded there; the airship they were on passed through an airborne manifest zone, and when they entered the plane the bound elemental instantly broke free. They crashed in what seemed to be a sizable canyon. As they started to explore, the captain of the vessel was snatched away by a roc; the group sniped at it, but they were low-level characters and couldn't really touch a roc. As the roc cleared the top of the canyon, IT was snatched up by a lynx... a lynx that was over two miles from tip to tail, which just leapt over their "canyon" in a single bound. At that moment they realized just how small they were in this place... how small they were in the pure face of nature. Needless to say, they dealt with the things on their scale in that canyon... the survivors of other crashed ships, a community of lycanthropes who escaped the Purge by fleeing to Lamannia, elemental forces, etc. But again, to me, the key to Lamannia is that there is nothing HUMAN or anthropomorphic about its native inhabitants; it's pure, primal nature.  That is a great image! I would have liked to see the faces of your players (and their characters). It also explains the difference between nature as embodied by Eberron, and nature as embodied by Lamannia. I guess druid sects like the Gatekeepers would also prefer not to have Lamannia cross over too strongly.
#4 Hellcow Apr 13, 2013 12:11:45	This clears up my problems. Thank you! Although one question remains: whose stories does Thelanis embody? All of them. I'll point out that in The Gates of Night, Xu'sasar encounters the ghost scorpion - an important piece of the stories of her people, but one with no meaning to the other travelers. Likewise, she interprets the entire experience in a different way than the others. The fey we are FAMILIAR with reflect human stories; that doesn't mean there aren't OTHER fey in Thelanis who are based around Goblin stories, or a dryad-equivalent based on how a Goblin sees a tree. With that said, some fey concepts are relatively universal; everyone has to deal with Winter sometime. In that case, what you might have is a single spirit that's perceived in a different form by different beings; so a human sees a Ghaele of Winter as an elf-like human, while a Goblin might see a bugbear with ice-crusted fur. The Ghaele might interact with human and goblin in a different way, instinctively adopting the customs they expect from their tales. It's the same approach I've suggested for the Daelkyr... if you're familair with Gaiman's Sandman comics, it's the same way beings of different races and cultures all see Dream through their own lens. So as humans, we tend to see the human face of Thelanis... but there are many others. Would you go as far as, say, Terry Pratchett in the Discworld novels, to say that some forces in Thelanis could and do try to shape stories: make sure the poor, exploited girl marries the prince; make sure there are birds to eat the breadcrumbs left behind by Hänsel and Gretel? Absolutely. This is essentially the basis of the plot of The Fading Dream, and one can argue that the Queen of Dusk does a similar thing throughout The Dreaming Dark. There's also the chicken and egg question. Does the story appear in Thelanis because of its popularity in Eberron, or does the story BEGIN in Thelanis and leak out into the mortal world? So to check if I got this: A naiad (or equivalent water-fey) in the river would represent the beauty, freshness, but also capriciousness of the stream, rather than its being a natural feature. It can demand offerings, get angry if observed, lure people their death, fall desperatly in love, and do all those things which stories tell about them, and which cause people even today to throw coins into fountains. Whereas a water elemental would just be the river, in a sense, and care neither about offerings thrown into it, nor about mills and bridges (as fey do, one way or another, in the stories), just so long as it can flow - even if it might destroy those same mills because it feels like rushing too strongly - no more opinionated, or open to reason, than an actual river would be. That's what I'm suggesting. This leaves me with some problem regarding those elementals which are largely described as having very human-like traits, and motivations that go beyond the purely natural. The avatars of Elemental Evil (and Good) would be the biggest ones... Then there are the Elemental Wierds: granted, they are alien, but with interests and connections to divinatory magic which was believed to reside in the elements by many cultures: would their ties make them fey rather than elementals? Yes; note that the elemental weird in the Dreaming Dark stories is actually serving the ends of the Queen of Dusk, and there's a distinct possibility that she actually IS the Queen of Dusk. There are elementals in Lamannia, but that doesn't mean ALL elementals are from Lamannia. Key point: The fiends of Fernia. A balor from Fernia isn't an elemental. It has an anthropomorphic frame of reference and embodies mortal fears of the wild, uncontrolled power of flame. It is an "elemental entity of fire" - but it is a completely different order of being from the pure elemental which gets bound to an airship. The elementals of Lamannia, on the other hand, fall into that latter camp. So in other words, a force of Elemental Evil would be more likely to come from Fernia or a similar plane than Lamannia; to a certain degree one could argue that the princes are somewhat redundant since Eberron places fiends in elemental planes.
#5 Syltorian Apr 13, 2013 16:27:10	All of them. I'll point out that in The Gates of Night, Xu'sasar encounters the ghost scorpion - an important piece of the stories of her people, but one with no meaning to the other travelers. Likewise, she interprets the entire experience in a different way than the others. The fey we are FAMILIAR with reflect human stories; that doesn't mean there aren't OTHER fey in Thelanis who are based around Goblin stories, or a dryad-equivalent based on how a Goblin sees a tree. I really liked how Xu'sasar behaved so differently from her Khorvairian companions when they met the scorpion and the double-headed serpent, and (not necessarily related to the fey), her misunderstanding about how you get food at an inn. It would be interesting to see what kind of fey the goblins have; as for the embodiments of the fears and hopes of dragons and fiends, that most be something truly terrible. With that said, some fey concepts are relatively universal; everyone has to deal with Winter sometime. In that case, what you might have is a single spirit that's perceived in a different form by different beings; so a human sees a Ghaele of Winter as an elf-like human, while a Goblin might see a bugbear with ice-crusted fur. The Ghaele might interact with human and goblin in a different way, instinctively adopting the customs they expect from their tales. It's the same approach I've suggested for the Daelkyr... if you're familair with Gaiman's Sandman comics, it's the same way beings of different races and cultures all see Dream through their own lens. I'll have to try Gaiman's comics. I'm afraid, I haven't gotten around to that yet, but I love Good Omens / Bad Omens and am rather intruiged by American Gods, based on a Dragon Article a while ago.   There's also the chicken and egg question. Does the story appear in Thelanis because of its popularity in Eberron, or does the story BEGIN in Thelanis and leak out into the mortal world? And what do the inhabitants of Thelanis think about this? The Eladrin in The Fading Dream do not seem to be overly impressed with this "world of mud". Do they consider their plane to be the real prime material, and themselves to be in the centre of the orrery? That's what I'm suggesting. Thanks! That gives me a lot to work with. Yes; note that the elemental weird in the Dreaming Dark stories is actually serving the ends of the Queen of Dusk, and there's a distinct possibility that she actually IS the Queen of Dusk. There are elementals in Lamannia, but that doesn't mean ALL elementals are from Lamannia. Key point: The fiends of Fernia. A balor from Fernia isn't an elemental. It has an anthropomorphic frame of reference and embodies mortal fears of the wild, uncontrolled power of flame. It is an "elemental entity of fire" - but it is a completely different order of being from the pure elemental which gets bound to an airship. The elementals of Lamannia, on the other hand, fall into that latter camp. So in other words, a force of Elemental Evil would be more likely to come from Fernia or a similar plane than Lamannia; to a certain degree one could argue that the princes are somewhat redundant since Eberron places fiends in elemental planes. Thanks again. Incidentally, speaking of Fernia: there also seem to be a rare few fire-related celestials on Sea of Fire, if I recall correctly. Could a shift in power make the plan good-aligned - in the same way Dal Quor (supposedly) changes between alignments?
#6 Madfox11 Apr 15, 2013 2:09:15	Thelanis is a plane of hopes, fears and stories. Dol Quor is a plane of dreams. Makes you wonder how those two interact because the two spheres are very closely related. It certainly would explain why eladrin don't sleep and are remarkably resistent to mind influencing magic.
#7 Syltorian Apr 15, 2013 7:57:00	Thelanis is a plane of hopes, fears and stories. Dol Quor is a plane of dreams. Makes you wonder how those two interact because the two spheres are very closely related. It certainly would explain why eladrin don't sleep and are remarkably resistent to mind influencing magic. This is partially explored in The Fading Dream and the Explore Taer Lian Doresh Dragon Magazine articles. The Cul'sir emperor trapped the eladrin of the Spire of Fading Dreams in Dal Quor during the Age of Giants, using the link of their lord Shan Doresh against them. The Fading Dream quite vividly describes that battle. They seem to have survived the Turning of the Age, too, which would probably make the current incarnation of the Quori (and the Kalashtar) highly interested in them, and what they know about the last age of their race.  It would certainly be interesting to have the interrelationship of the planes explored in more detail. Does Thelanis eventually fade into Xoriat, as stories become ever more insane? Does the Lord of Taer Syraen, a personification of Winter, have the same ties to Risia as Shan Doresh had to Dal Quor? What influence does Shavarath have on battles between Yuguloths on Mabar, and conversely, do warrior epics draw from Shavarath (for the pure rage of war) as much as Thelanis (for the actual stories)? All of these planes meet on Eberron, but do they also influence each other, and how? I am afraid that answers to this would require a Planes of Eberron supplement or a series of magazine articles, not that this is the first place such a book has been asked for.
#8 Madfox11 Apr 15, 2013 8:09:29	This is partially explored in The Fading Dream and the Explore Taer Lian Doresh Dragon Magazine articles. The Cul'sir emperor trapped the eladrin of the Spire of Fading Dreams in Dal Quor during the Age of Giants, using the link of their lord Shan Doresh against them. The Fading Dream quite vividly describes that battle. That though is only one spire and has no direct impact on the rest. Note that eladrin do not sleep and are highly resistent to magical influence (+5 bonus on saves vs. charm effects). My DM hints in his campaign that it was actually that resistence that got the giants to enslave the eladrin to use them in their war against the quori. Of course, that is something for his campaign since it clashes a bit with the canon timeline, but it fits his story (and that of my PC) quite well. Note that in 3e this might work somewhat better since in 3e elves do not sleep either (unless I am completely misremembering the elf) while in 4e this ability is only retained by eladrin.
#9 Hellcow Apr 15, 2013 12:08:37	That though is only one spire and has no direct impact on the rest. Maybe yes, maybe no. Taer Doresh was a bridge between Dal Quor and Thelanis, and may well have symbolized the link between dream and story. In The Fading Dream, Cadrel relates a story that says that elves don't sleep because they are ashamed of abandoning Taer Doresh to its fate, and thus cannot bear to go to Dal Quor. This is just a story, loosely inspired by Kipling's Just So stories... on the other hand, as Thelanis is the plane of stories, that's more relevant than it would be elsewhere. With that said, it's worth noting that very few native planar inhabitants sleep. Eberron is a planar crossroads, and the mortals of Eberron are touched and influenced by all the planes; when they sleep, they are drawn across that connection to Dal Quor. Angels, fiends, and the like are creatures of a single plane, with no innate connection to Dal Quor. Looking back to the underlying philosophical difference between Dal Quor and Thelanis... One could make the argument that stories are consciously shaped and told, while dreams are the stories of the subconscious. Even if a story existed before you tell it, you can decide what spin to put on it; lucid dreamers aside, you can't choose your dream. Furthermore, while stories change and evolve, they tend to do so in a logical way... while the logic of dreams can completely shift from moment to moment. Thus there are similarities between them, certainly, but Dal Quor is a wilder and less predictable place. It's more about raw primal forces and emotions, whereas Thelanis is a little more... refined and defined. Of course, this speaks to the heart of Dal Quor; on the borders you have the areas that are entirely shaped by the minds of mortals, which can be very concretely defined... but which may not last for long at all. Dreams are innately fleeting things, whereas a good story can last forever. Note that in 3e this might work somewhat better since in 3e elves do not sleep either (unless I am completely misremembering the elf) while in 4e this ability is only retained by eladrin. I will note that the decision that 4E elves sleep really bothered me... The fact that elves don't sleep plays a role in the Dreaming Dark novels, and is why Xu'sasar can't join the rest of the party in Dal Quor. It's the same sort of thing as the 3E to 3.5E change that afflicted lycanthropes can't pass on the affliction, which undermines the entire foundation of the Lycanthropic Purge; it SEEMS like a trivial change, unless you have a story that's grounded on that one particular detail.
#10 Hellcow Apr 15, 2013 12:15:52	They seem to have survived the Turning of the Age, too, which would probably make the current incarnation of the Quori (and the Kalashtar) highly interested in them, and what they know about the last age of their race. They survived the Turning of the Age, but that doesn't mean that they weren't affected and transformed by it. It could be that prior to the turn, they remained fey of Taer Doresh - trapped in Dal Quor, but still true to what they once were. The Turn of the Age ushered in the nightmare reign of il-Lashtavar, and I think it's fair to think that it was this that turned Taer Doresh into Taer Lian Doresh, the fortress of fading dreams. Once they made dreams come true; now they are nightmares. Of course, one wacky thing to explore would be the idea that the fey of Taer Doresh worked closely with the Quori of the previous age and were one of the motive forces that drove the war between the Quori-Giant war. If so, it clearly didn't work out so well for them - they remain trapped and fading - but it could be that they are in part responsible FOR the last Turn. Which of course means that if the Kalashtar are correct and the next age is one of light, perhaps il-Yannah woud actually heal the wounds of the Fading Dream...
#11 Madfox11 Apr 16, 2013 1:52:59	With that said, it's worth noting that very few native planar inhabitants sleep. Eberron is a planar crossroads, and the mortals of Eberron are touched and influenced by all the planes; when they sleep, they are drawn across that connection to Dal Quor. Angels, fiends, and the like are creatures of a single plane, with no innate connection to Dal Quor.  I seem to remember reading somewhere that one of the dangers of wandering through Dal Quor is that you can wander into the dreams of powerful entities such as imprisoned demon lords and dragons. The danger being that these powerful dreams might never release you. I think it was somewhere about not all of the 'good'-aligned quori making it to a kaleshtar host and this being potential adventure seeds... Do I misremember? Or is there something about being captured for eternity that forces those demon lords to enter Dal Quor (nowhere else to go)? (Note that of course I am well aware that as a DM this is certainly one of the easiest things to change, just curious about other people's opinions.)
#12 Hellcow Apr 16, 2013 2:06:23	I seem to remember reading somewhere that one of the dangers of wandering through Dal Quor is that you can wander into the dreams of powerful entities such as imprisoned demon lords and dragons. The danger being that these powerful dreams might never release you. Dragons are mortal creatures of Eberron, and as such they dream. In a number of locations I've discussed eidolons - mortal entities such as titans or dragons that cast their spirits into Dal Quor in order to escape dissolution in Dolurrh, essentially becoming eternal dreams. A draconic eidolon appears in The Gates of Night, and elsewhere it's suggested that these eidolons could be used as Eberron's answer to vestiges. However, I personally would never have a demon dream, at least not as humans do. Mortals are creatures of both soul and flesh, and the soul can drift while the flesh sleeps and go to Dal Quor. A demon (or angel, or quori) is a creature of incarnate soul. The two aren't separate pieces, and even if it COULD sleep, if it went to Dal Quor it would go there in its entirety; it wouldn't leave its body behind. So yes, a draconic eidolon is an "eternal dream", touching on my point about lucid dreaming above - it's an artificial, conscious construct that has no place in the natural order of Dal Quor. As such, it's certainly a place where a mortal soul could be captured and held indefinitely... which is, of course, precisely what is going on in The Gates of Night. But as always, these are just my thoughts on dreams and demons. I'm sure there's quite a few people who have played with the idea of the dreams of an Overlord; if I wanted to explore that, I might suggest that the Overlord's "dreams" are essentially an entirely separate demiplane - not tied to Dal Quor at all, but with the proper magic a mortal dreamer could be redirected into the slumbering Overlord's dream instead of going to Dal Quor.
#13 Syltorian Apr 16, 2013 5:13:07	Thanks for clarifying the differences and similarities between Dal Quor and Thelanis. With that said, it's worth noting that very few native planar inhabitants sleep. Eberron is a planar crossroads, and the mortals of Eberron are touched and influenced by all the planes; when they sleep, they are drawn across that connection to Dal Quor. Angels, fiends, and the like are creatures of a single plane, with no innate connection to Dal Quor. Outsiders and Elementals don’t sleep by 3.5, if I recall correctly, but regular fey? Cadrel’s story would suggest that they do: the Eladrin dreamt before shunning Dal Quor out of shame, else they would not be able to tell the difference. What about other creatures native to other planes, but not outsider, elementals, or, in the case of Mabar, undead? What about aberrations? Does a Dolgrim dream? I will note that the decision that 4E elves sleep really bothered me... The fact that elves don't sleep plays a role in the Dreaming Dark novels, and is why Xu'sasar can't join the rest of the party in Dal Quor. I agree. The inability of elves to dream also seemed to play a big role in the war against Dal Quor, as it allowed the giants to use their slaves as soldiers who could not be spied on as easily (which probably also led to considerable experimenting to replicate that ability), and in turn explained why the elves rose in power as the giants were weakened.   It's the same sort of thing as the 3E to 3.5E change that afflicted lycanthropes can't pass on the affliction, which undermines the entire foundation of the Lycanthropic Purge; it SEEMS like a trivial change, unless you have a story that's grounded on that one particular detail. Doesn’t this actually make the specific lycanthropic threat which led to the Purge much more terrifying? Lycanthropes were around long before the 830s: if people were used to afflicted lycanthropes not spreading the curse, they would be all the more horrified if this rule suddenly stopped to be true. This would help hammer home the point that the horrors committed by the Purified were not mindless genocide, but the panic-reaction of well-meaning people who knew the odds were against them. IIRC, there is a template in one of the Dragon Magazines which made natural lycanthropes create afflicted lycanthropes who could spread the curse. It was a Forgotten Realms based adventure, connected to the beast-god Malar, but I found it suited the Purge quite well. If used, this would mean that under certain special circumstances (say, tongue in cheek, dark rituals and the conjunction of six moons) , the Lycanthropic Threat might suddenly increase again. They survived the Turning of the Age, but that doesn't mean that they weren't affected and transformed by it. It could be that prior to the turn, they remained fey of Taer Doresh - trapped in Dal Quor, but still true to what they once were. The Turn of the Age ushered in the nightmare reign of il-Lashtavar, and I think it's fair to think that it was this that turned Taer Doresh into Taer Lian Doresh, the fortress of fading dreams. Once they made dreams come true; now they are nightmares. That would explain why Shan Doresh, a caring hero of his people, changed his attitude so radically. Not that the natural strain of living in a world of horror for millennia as the result of cowardly betrayal would not be sufficient reason for his spite.  Of course, one wacky thing to explore would be the idea that the fey of Taer Doresh worked closely with the Quori of the previous age and were one of the motive forces that drove the war between the Quori-Giant war. If so, it clearly didn't work out so well for them - they remain trapped and fading - but it could be that they are in part responsible FOR the last Turn. Interesting. So the Quori War was (possibly) a revenge against Cul’sir? It would be interesting if something, say, a docent or a captured old-age Quori would see an eladrin/elf/fey character as an ally… or someone they blame, in turn, for having led them to utter destruction. But as always, these are just my thoughts on dreams and demons. I'm sure there's quite a few people who have played with the idea of the dreams of an Overlord; if I wanted to explore that, I might suggest that the Overlord's "dreams" are essentially an entirely separate demiplane - not tied to Dal Quor at all, but with the proper magic a mortal dreamer could be redirected into the slumbering Overlord's dream instead of going to Dal Quor. So it might be possible that an Overlord’s dreams might exert a more powerful draw on dreams above its prison? For instance, could sleepers in Thaliost slip into the dreams of Rak Thulkesh rather than into Dal Quor? That could be interesting, and potentially a way to calm his influence and finally give some rest to that hate-filled region. How would the Quori react, though, if an area the size of a city is suddenly cut off from them? And would a rajah be able to control his dreams, or be prey to them just like less powerful mortals are… I wonder whether a campaign can be made out of this.
#14 Madfox11 Apr 16, 2013 5:31:33	On a related note, the quori install a rather stale rigid 'peaceful' society in Riedra, one with apparent little variation and no real hero worship (after all, that would get youngsters to want to become heroes). Wouldn't such a society really clash with what eladrin would want to see? Granted, even Riedrans still have stories. So a fey of winter would not care less since even a tame society still fears winter, but a fey about trickery, courage or freedom? Also, the towers seem to exclude planar travel and I assume that just as the Fey Spires should not be stuck in Khorvaire, being stuck in Thelanis is just as bad - old stories go rather stale don't they? (Mind you, I always liked the idea of fey lacking the ability to make true stories of their own without the aid of mortals. It is what makes them both dislike (jalousy) and admire mortals and goes a long way to explain their often mixed approach to mortals. It would also make them a bit symbiotic with mortals. The more stories are told by the mortals, the more power the fey representing those stories become. I am unsure whether that holds true in Eberron persee. It is not as if we have information on Thelanis during the Age of Demons and how much Dal Quor and Thelanis are influenced by Eberron ;))
#15 Syltorian Apr 16, 2013 5:52:39	Good point. Also, the Riedrans have the Edgewalkers, who react violently to anything extraplanar - including the fey. I would assume that the Inspired consider them 'evil spirits' to the same degree as the Kalashtar. I wonder what the Riedrans do about stories: in the worst case, they could be squashed. Live in the here and now. Don't dwell on fantasies. They lead you astray. Don't use metaphoras and allegories, even. Things are what they are. Don't go around telling people fanciful stuff about roses smelling just as sweet by any other name: a rose is a rose, and calling it something else is following the voice of the evil spirits.  It would make Riedran society even more terrifying if the Quori have managed to destroy the human urge to interpret the world around them with stories, but I can see this happening. The Quori interpret the world for you, and there is no escape in dreams or tales. As soon as you say "once upon a time" in Riedra, the thought-police will make sure there is no "happily ever after". In fact, no "after".
#16 Hellcow Apr 16, 2013 14:35:27	Outsiders and Elementals don’t sleep by 3.5, if I recall correctly, but regular fey? Cadrel’s story would suggest that they do: the Eladrin dreamt before shunning Dal Quor out of shame, else they would not be able to tell the difference. Cadrel's story is along the same lines as "How The Leopard Got Its Spots" - just because the story exists shouldn't be taken as evidence that there was once a time when leopards didn't have spots. With that said, by the 3.5 SRD creatures with the Fey subtype may sleep, so I'd take it on a case by case basis. Of course, I'll point out that simply because a creature sleeps doesn't necessarily mean that it goes to Dal Quor when it does. Kalashtar sleep but don't go to Dal Quor when they do; their nocturnal visions are drawn from the memories of their line and quori spirit. Many planar creatures might have similar mechanics; they sleep, and they have visions when they do, but they have no connection to Dal Quor and their visions are entirely internal experiences, or tied to some other racial pool. Looking specifically to aberrations, I think there's a strong case to be made that a mortal native of Xoriat simply drifts back to Xoriat when it sleeps, its mind filled with the madness of its birth.  Doesn’t this actually make the specific lycanthropic threat which led to the Purge much more terrifying? Lycanthropes were around long before the 830s: if people were used to afflicted lycanthropes not spreading the curse, they would be all the more horrified if this rule suddenly stopped to be true. This would help hammer home the point that the horrors committed by the Purified were not mindless genocide, but the panic-reaction of well-meaning people who knew the odds were against them. Certainly, and that's the explanation we gave following the 3.5 change. My point is that prior to that change, it wasn't even a necessary explanation. Original 3E lycanthropy is terrifying. It utterly and completely transforms the victim's personality; an evil lycanthrope isn't simply "evil" in the nebulous sense we use elsewhere in Eberron, but is specifically called out as becoming a murderer who preys on the innocent, including former friends and family. Afflicted lycanthropes could pass the affliction, which allows for zombie-outbreak style exponential growth. Under those rules, the question isn't why the Purge occurred; it's why it wouldn't have happened sooner. As is, we're simply saying that at the time of the Purge, lycanthropy DID operate under 3E rules, most likely due to the influence of an Overlord; as such, it's always possible it could happen again.
#17 Syltorian Apr 23, 2013 9:48:23	Thanks again, Hellcow. I will also have to read more of Kipling now; some of his stories seem to be interesting for Thelanis, beyond being worththe read on their own account. Was there an answer planned to why the Purge didn't happen much earlier, if lycanthropy had remained with the 3.0 rules? I like the Overlord story (and his prakhuthu, the Feral Hand), and the idea that the outbreak of lycanthropy before the Purge was something exceptional (which might happen again), but I'd be interested to hear what the original plan was.
#18 Hellcow Apr 23, 2013 12:36:28	Was there an answer planned to why the Purge didn't happen much earlier, if lycanthropy had remained with the 3.0 rules? First, the lycanthropic population was largely concentrated in desolate, distant areas like the Towering Woods, far from major centers of civilization. Second, because the lycanthropic population largely took steps to prevent it from being an issue. You're a werewolf. You enjoy preying on innocents. You live near a village. How does turning everyone in that village into a werewolf actually HELP you? It takes away your prey pool and creates more competition for what prey exists; and furthermore, you don't have to have an 18 Intelligence to realize that a wildfire of infection is going to draw unwanted attention. All you have to do to prevent the spread is to make sure that you kill any victim you attack. By and large, such deaths are likely to be blamed on animal attacks, thus keeping your presence a secret. Whether or not the Purge made lycanthropy easier to spread, it certainly filled the lycanthropic population with an unnatural desire to spread it, overriding more rational desires for self-preservation. Essentially, it turned it into a 28 Days Later scenario, when previously it was more akin to most of the older werewolf movies - where the bite of a werewolf can transfer the curse, but where few victims survive attacks and werewolves are all but unknown. Personally, I have always seen wererats as the most likely to engage in a controlled program of infection in order to spread influence through an area, tied to the fact that wererats are also urban creatures; werewolves are more driven by loyalty to their existing pack than by a desire to increase that pack, and werebears tend to be loners. This is reflected in The Complete Guide To Wererats, which I wrote for Goodman Games pre-Eberron.
#19 Syltorian Apr 27, 2013 12:54:49	Thanks again for the reply. I'll see if I can get hold of the Complete Guide to Wererats. Will it be difficult to adapt it to Eberron? I know you discussed adapting your work on Oneiromancy to the setting in one of your Q&As, and Crime and Punishment seems to have influenced parts of Eberron (Medani, Tharashk, and, in particular, Dreadhold  spring to mind).