Tiamat and the Dreaming Dark - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Tiamat and the Dreaming Dark

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
EnderXenocide0
Sep 25, 2012 17:12:12 Why would they work together? Or to what end would Tiamat and her followers try to manipulate the Dreaming Dark or vice versa?

Ready? ........GO!
#2
Madfox11
Sep 26, 2012 6:25:52
Why indeed? Their goals have little in common with one another, and assuming they even know the other exists (which is far from given), little reason to trust one another. Groups that have really long term views and a love for scheming tend to be almost paranoia about being manipulated by other similar groups. After all, if they want something to happen and a potential enemy happily complies for just a minor favor, they would wonder what that enemy gets out of it and whether or not it would hurt their own agenda in the long run. It is after all, what they would do when helping the other side ;)

What is more the dragons and overlords are extremely powerful, especially as a group. The Dreaming Dark is likely well aware of what the dragons did on Xendrik, and they would want to let sleeping dragons alone until they would be absolutely ready to deal with a force powerful enough to curse a continent for millenia and severe the connection between planes. Anger them, and all work in Riedra is likely to be ruined overnight.

For them to be true allies, you probably need to do something with the Prophecy and the turning the Dreaming Dark is trying to prevent. For example, if the release of Tiamat (and the other Overlords) would be much more effective in achieving the Quori's goals than slowly conquering Riedra, Khorvaire, Argonesse and Xendrik they would follow that path as well. Or perhaps the monoliths help get the other planes closer, strengthening some manifestion zones and making it easier for the Overlords to escape. It would be a cool twist if the Quori only learn of this side effect at the last moment, and realize that in their moment of victory they also harvest their own defeat by releasing all demonlords ;)

Of course, Tiamat is locked up and she does not directly influences events on Eberron, and the Dreaming Dark tends to work with a lot of go-betweens. Those followers also are not a single body with one mind. Individuals have their goals and methods. Chances of them accidentally manipulating the other in doing something are much bigger. It requires only a mad quori* to be convinced that the Chamber is a big threat that can only be contained by releasing Tiamat and you have a faction of the Dreaming Dark working with followers of Tiamat. Similarly, if a particular subtle Lord of Dust wants something in the Prophecy from happening, and convinces agents of the Dreaming Dark it is in their favor without revealing his allegiance they would end up working together as well.

Although, in all honesty, I see the two much more as opposing forces. The Dreaming Dark is about extreme order. To me demon lords are corruption and destruction, the anethma of order. Covering the world with the magic of those monoliths would likely actually strengthen the bindings that keep the Overlords imprissoned. There is something cool about the PCs being given the choice to work with one against the other because the enemy of my enemy is my friend...

* I wonder whether there is a demon lord of the corruption of dreams and ambitions? Or whether demon lords dream and hence can be manipulated by quori? ;)
#3
EnderXenocide0
Sep 26, 2012 17:55:25 What I think I'm shooting for in this campaign is that the Dreaming Dark is the main recurring villain of the story and the plot focuses on stopping them from conquering Khorvaire with one of their many plots. What they don't realize, however, is that they are being partly manipulated by the Lords of Dust into releasing at least one of the Overloards. I'm trying to weave Tiamat specifically into this because on of my players is a Dragonborn striving to create an army of Seren barbarians-turned-Dragonborn to aid the Light of Siberys in their struggle against the fiends, particularly Tiamat.
#4
Madfox11
Sep 27, 2012 3:04:40 In that case I would do something with the draconic guardians in Q'Bara. What if the prophecy talks about the ultimate betrayal by a dragon would release Tiamat (in a suitably vague poetic way of course)? If the Dreaming Dark somehow concludes the corrupted black dragon poses a threat and wants it removed, it might actually push that dragon into doing something foolish such as releasing the Overlord imprisoned below. Even if the PCs can stop him from doing the stupid thing, it is too late and Tiamat increases in power (or even gets released). Mind you, this is a bit of a no-win situation for the PCs unless they stop the Dreaming Dark before it pushes the black dragon too far. If they cannot stop this there is no way to win anymore since either they help the Dreaming Dark by killing the black dragon before he can even betray his duty or they don't and Tiamat gets stronger...

Of course, personally I would not make it any conscious manipulation by either side. Manipulating the Dreaming Dark is difficult since you have no clue who its agents are (and they can change depending on whom the Quori inhabit) and everybody in charge on both sides are immortal millenia old entities. It could happen accidentally. The Lords of Dust realize that getting the black dragon to betray his trust and start poking the humans and the lizardfolk to escalate that conflict and manipulat humans to send expeditions into the ruins guarded by the dragon (humans powerful enough to give the dragon guardian pause). With the conflict escalating the Dreaming Darks own plots in Q'Bara are threatened unless it does something drastic against the lizardfolk and its draconic guardians, accidentally furthering the Lords of Dust plot even more since the Dreaming Dark is much more formidable opponent than mere humans.

One downside of this is that the Chamber has to be kept out of the conflict. Maybe though the dragon guardian is already corrupted too much to consider asking for help, or perhaps the Chamber is going to take too long to debate a sollution (at least in the eyes of the draconic guardian) or the prophecy in question is unknown or might point at similar events in another area. Or the PC is actually the agent of the Chamber send in to investigate/help the black dragon guardian ;)
#5
Hellcow
Sep 27, 2012 14:11:18 My gut - without having had the time to thoroughly digest the other posts in the thread - is that the Dreaming Dark wouldn't want to interact directly with Tiamat and her followers, because it's simply too dangerous to expose themselves too much to such a powerful force. And long term, their goals don't mesh. However, in the shorter term, we've already established that the dragons are a powerful force the DD needs to watch for. As such, I could see the DD giving Tiamat an unasked for helping hand in order to give Argonnessen a problem to deal with. In an ideal world, they'd want the dragons to be victorious over Tiamat - as draconic order is a better match for their goals than the chaos of Khyber - but vastly weakened by the conflict, and thus less of a threat to the DD.
#6
charlemegne
Sep 27, 2012 19:02:06 I would say that Hellcow is right in the way that, the DD would probably release or weaken the prison of Tiamat so the dragons would be distracted from whats happening meanwhile. What you also have to consider that the DD would probably either want Tiamat or the dragons to win that consfrontation and what the consequences of having either side win.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 EnderXenocide0 Sep 25, 2012 17:12:12	Why would they work together? Or to what end would Tiamat and her followers try to manipulate the Dreaming Dark or vice versa? Ready? ........GO!
#2 Madfox11 Sep 26, 2012 6:25:52	Why indeed? Their goals have little in common with one another, and assuming they even know the other exists (which is far from given), little reason to trust one another. Groups that have really long term views and a love for scheming tend to be almost paranoia about being manipulated by other similar groups. After all, if they want something to happen and a potential enemy happily complies for just a minor favor, they would wonder what that enemy gets out of it and whether or not it would hurt their own agenda in the long run. It is after all, what they would do when helping the other side ;) What is more the dragons and overlords are extremely powerful, especially as a group. The Dreaming Dark is likely well aware of what the dragons did on Xendrik, and they would want to let sleeping dragons alone until they would be absolutely ready to deal with a force powerful enough to curse a continent for millenia and severe the connection between planes. Anger them, and all work in Riedra is likely to be ruined overnight. For them to be true allies, you probably need to do something with the Prophecy and the turning the Dreaming Dark is trying to prevent. For example, if the release of Tiamat (and the other Overlords) would be much more effective in achieving the Quori's goals than slowly conquering Riedra, Khorvaire, Argonesse and Xendrik they would follow that path as well. Or perhaps the monoliths help get the other planes closer, strengthening some manifestion zones and making it easier for the Overlords to escape. It would be a cool twist if the Quori only learn of this side effect at the last moment, and realize that in their moment of victory they also harvest their own defeat by releasing all demonlords ;) Of course, Tiamat is locked up and she does not directly influences events on Eberron, and the Dreaming Dark tends to work with a lot of go-betweens. Those followers also are not a single body with one mind. Individuals have their goals and methods. Chances of them accidentally manipulating the other in doing something are much bigger. It requires only a mad quori* to be convinced that the Chamber is a big threat that can only be contained by releasing Tiamat and you have a faction of the Dreaming Dark working with followers of Tiamat. Similarly, if a particular subtle Lord of Dust wants something in the Prophecy from happening, and convinces agents of the Dreaming Dark it is in their favor without revealing his allegiance they would end up working together as well. Although, in all honesty, I see the two much more as opposing forces. The Dreaming Dark is about extreme order. To me demon lords are corruption and destruction, the anethma of order. Covering the world with the magic of those monoliths would likely actually strengthen the bindings that keep the Overlords imprissoned. There is something cool about the PCs being given the choice to work with one against the other because the enemy of my enemy is my friend... * I wonder whether there is a demon lord of the corruption of dreams and ambitions? Or whether demon lords dream and hence can be manipulated by quori? ;)
#3 EnderXenocide0 Sep 26, 2012 17:55:25	What I think I'm shooting for in this campaign is that the Dreaming Dark is the main recurring villain of the story and the plot focuses on stopping them from conquering Khorvaire with one of their many plots. What they don't realize, however, is that they are being partly manipulated by the Lords of Dust into releasing at least one of the Overloards. I'm trying to weave Tiamat specifically into this because on of my players is a Dragonborn striving to create an army of Seren barbarians-turned-Dragonborn to aid the Light of Siberys in their struggle against the fiends, particularly Tiamat.
#4 Madfox11 Sep 27, 2012 3:04:40	In that case I would do something with the draconic guardians in Q'Bara. What if the prophecy talks about the ultimate betrayal by a dragon would release Tiamat (in a suitably vague poetic way of course)? If the Dreaming Dark somehow concludes the corrupted black dragon poses a threat and wants it removed, it might actually push that dragon into doing something foolish such as releasing the Overlord imprisoned below. Even if the PCs can stop him from doing the stupid thing, it is too late and Tiamat increases in power (or even gets released). Mind you, this is a bit of a no-win situation for the PCs unless they stop the Dreaming Dark before it pushes the black dragon too far. If they cannot stop this there is no way to win anymore since either they help the Dreaming Dark by killing the black dragon before he can even betray his duty or they don't and Tiamat gets stronger... Of course, personally I would not make it any conscious manipulation by either side. Manipulating the Dreaming Dark is difficult since you have no clue who its agents are (and they can change depending on whom the Quori inhabit) and everybody in charge on both sides are immortal millenia old entities. It could happen accidentally. The Lords of Dust realize that getting the black dragon to betray his trust and start poking the humans and the lizardfolk to escalate that conflict and manipulat humans to send expeditions into the ruins guarded by the dragon (humans powerful enough to give the dragon guardian pause). With the conflict escalating the Dreaming Darks own plots in Q'Bara are threatened unless it does something drastic against the lizardfolk and its draconic guardians, accidentally furthering the Lords of Dust plot even more since the Dreaming Dark is much more formidable opponent than mere humans. One downside of this is that the Chamber has to be kept out of the conflict. Maybe though the dragon guardian is already corrupted too much to consider asking for help, or perhaps the Chamber is going to take too long to debate a sollution (at least in the eyes of the draconic guardian) or the prophecy in question is unknown or might point at similar events in another area. Or the PC is actually the agent of the Chamber send in to investigate/help the black dragon guardian ;)
#5 Hellcow Sep 27, 2012 14:11:18	My gut - without having had the time to thoroughly digest the other posts in the thread - is that the Dreaming Dark wouldn't want to interact directly with Tiamat and her followers, because it's simply too dangerous to expose themselves too much to such a powerful force. And long term, their goals don't mesh. However, in the shorter term, we've already established that the dragons are a powerful force the DD needs to watch for. As such, I could see the DD giving Tiamat an unasked for helping hand in order to give Argonnessen a problem to deal with. In an ideal world, they'd want the dragons to be victorious over Tiamat - as draconic order is a better match for their goals than the chaos of Khyber - but vastly weakened by the conflict, and thus less of a threat to the DD.
#6 charlemegne Sep 27, 2012 19:02:06	I would say that Hellcow is right in the way that, the DD would probably release or weaken the prison of Tiamat so the dragons would be distracted from whats happening meanwhile. What you also have to consider that the DD would probably either want Tiamat or the dragons to win that consfrontation and what the consequences of having either side win.