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Treaty of Thronehold provisions

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
dan_vk
Nov 16, 2010 14:22:18 Here are the known provisions of the Treaty of Thronehold:
New borders were establish, and Aundair, Breland, Darguun, the Eldeen Reaches, Karrnath, the Lhazaar Principalities, the Mror Holds, Q’barra, the Talenta Plains, Thrane, Valenar, and Zilargo were recognized as sovereign nations, while Droaam, the Shadow Marches, the Demon Wastes, and the Mournland remained indistinct regions. Warforged were declared people, not property, and House Cannith was forbidden to produce more warforged. All existing letters of marque were declared void. Throneport was established as a multinational province under the eyes of House Deneith’s Throne Wardens. Castle Galifar was declared off-limits to all but its keepers. House Deneith’s Sentinel Marshalls were tasked with capturing war criminals, and the Tribunal was formed to judge them.

I recall reading somewhere, perhaps in a post by Hellcow, that the Treaty of Thronehold is based on the real world Treaty of Versailles. What are some things you think should be in the Treaty of Thronehold but are not mentioned in sourcebooks?

I am surprised there is no mention of military restrictions, such as a cap on the number of troops and a prohibition against the stockpiling of magical arms.
#2
Juums
Nov 17, 2010 16:03:43 As the Treaty of Thronehold was negotiated between powers that had relative parity with one another, caps on the number of deployable troops would have either never on the table in the first place, because no one had the power to enforce them, or were abandoned during negotiations because it was rightly seen that no one would have had an incentive to comply without a guarantor of sufficient power to bring cap-breakers to heel. The cap on the size of the interwar Reichswehr that resulted from Versailles, after all, was a punitive measure taken by the Allies in the hopes of keeping Germany unable to make war for at least a generation.

Meanwhile, you did see the various powers agree to at least one provision prohibiting the stockpiling of magical arms: The decision to destroy House Cannith's creation forges. I dimly recall one of the Sharn Inquisitive newsposts being about a diplomatic row between Breland and Karrnath about the latter's continued stockpiling of undead in contravention of the Treaty of Thronehold.

I imagine a lot of the text of the Treaty of Thronehold is actually dedicated to the minutae of territorial realignment, sorting out issues of repatriation of citizens, compensation of nobles, and resolution of ownership of high-value assets in both newly formed nations and between the Five Nations whose territory changed hands with the new borders. From my own runnings of it, I've always liked the Treaty of Thronehold as a half-implemented document: As alluded to above, one of my favorite points of friction to insert is that the disarmament provisions were fairly large, requiring not only the destruction of the creation forges but the drawing down and destruction of Karrnath's undead legions, Breland's bound-elemental war machines, and Aundair's war-time arcane colleges. (As well as Thrane's legions of bound celestials, though that's a quirk of my take on the setting.) Thus far, the still-standing Five Nations have dragged their feet in complying, with House Cannith raising a royal stink about being coerced into destroying its livelihood while everyone else ignores their obligations under the same provisions. (To the point that House Cannith's put a moratorium on disassembling its creation forges in protest. Though that, again, is my game and its subplots crowding out the canon.)
#3
jedi123
Nov 17, 2010 16:14:14 One feature to remember is, IIRC, it also has tried to put a stop to alliances between Dragonmarked Houses and National Royalty. THere are other factors that were made in an attempt by the nations to limit the houses power.
#4
dan_vk
Nov 18, 2010 12:58:44
As the Treaty of Thronehold was negotiated between powers that had relative parity with one another, caps on the number of deployable troops would have either never on the table in the first place, because no one had the power to enforce them, or were abandoned during negotiations because it was rightly seen that no one would have had an incentive to comply without a guarantor of sufficient power to bring cap-breakers to heel. The cap on the size of the interwar Reichswehr that resulted from Versailles, after all, was a punitive measure taken by the Allies in the hopes of keeping Germany unable to make war for at least a generation.

Fair enough. Considering the pushing match international politics tends to be, that is a more than reasonable possibility. Although there is no source material to support it, I imagine the Treaty of Thronehold more closely resembling the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Since Aundair, Breland, Karrnath, and Thrane were most likely the strongest negotiators, signatories would be prohibited from expanding their militaries beyond a certain number, but existing militaries would be pared down over time.

Meanwhile, you did see the various powers agree to at least one provision prohibiting the stockpiling of magical arms: The decision to destroy House Cannith's creation forges.

For some reason I never thought of the ban on creating new warforged as a nonproliferation clause, but that makes a lot of sense. I always saw it in the context of individual rights for a newly-freed people. What do you think about prohibitions against siege engines, such as battlebriars and warforged of limited intelligence, like warforged titans?

I dimly recall one of the Sharn Inquisitive newsposts being about a diplomatic row between Breland and Karrnath about the latter's continued stockpiling of undead in contravention of the Treaty of Thronehold.

I should look that up! It could be very useful for the campaign I am currently running.

I imagine a lot of the text of the Treaty of Thronehold is actually dedicated to the minutae of territorial realignment, sorting out issues of repatriation of citizens, compensation of nobles, and resolution of ownership of high-value assets in both newly formed nations and between the Five Nations whose territory changed hands with the new borders.

This is how I imagine it, too. A lot of territory changed hands.

(As well as Thrane's legions of bound celestials, though that's a quirk of my take on the setting.)

That is brilliant. I hope you do not mind me stealing the idea.

One feature to remember is, IIRC, it also has tried to put a stop to alliances between Dragonmarked Houses and National Royalty. THere are other factors that were made in an attempt by the nations to limit the houses power.

I was under the impression those limits were in the Korth Edicts. Where did I miss this?
#5
Juums
Nov 18, 2010 14:07:20 @Dan_VK:
While I'm still not a fan of the idea of Treaty of Thronehold containing troop caps, I can definitely get behind the idea of it being discriminatory against the non-Five Nations denizens of Khorvaire. I always envisioned it as...well, the Treaty of Versailles, but in the technical sense: The Treaty of Versailles, after all, only dealth with the Allied disposition of the German Empire. Separate treaties, the Treaties of St. Germaine and Sevres, disposed of the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires. So the Treaty of Thronehold was, mainly, an agreement between Aundair, Breland, Karrnath, and Thrane to end their own conflict, with the Treaty of Throneport being signed a few days later in which the Five Nations, as a bloc, dictated terms to the nations created by the war. I also always thought it made sense for the Treaty of Thronehold to treat the nations beyond the Five Nations differently: Zilargo, Eldeen Reaches, New Galifer, and Mror Holds probably get a better deal, as they're culturally part of the Five Nations, while a harsher shake is reserved for Darguun, Valenar, and Droamm. (To the point of non-recognition of the Droammite state in the Treaty of Thronehold.)

With regard to warforged...well, in the canon, I suspect a creation forge is a creation forge: As all of them were destroyed, the issue of what to do about the various forms of less intelligent warforged mooted itself. That said, in the game I'm currently running, what to do about non-sapient warforged is a major political issue and bone of contention. As the heavy warforged are very much what, in modern parlance, would be dual-use technology. A warforged titan can be an awesome tool of destruction, but if you replace its axe-and-maul with hands, it can also be an incredibly useful tool of heavy industry; a steel kraken can be a tool of control of the seas, but it can also be way to maintain shipping channels and towing ships through difficult waters; and a warforged raptor can delivers parcels just as easily as rocks from on-high. House Cannith has strenously argued that the creation forge destruction provisions applied only those producing "compact" warforged -- standard-issue sapient warforged, warforged scouts, and psiforged -- and that it would resist, through force of arms in necessary, attempts by national governments to force to dismantles its creation forges dedicated to producing "heavy" warforged. (That said creation forges could easily be repurposed to produce more sapient warforged remains unstated, though everyone knows it.)

On the subject of arcane siege engines and fantastic warbeasts, I think the signatoreis of the Treaty of Thronehold would have agreed to disagree on that: As some powers were likely more dependant upon them than others -- i.e. Aundair with battlebriars, Karrnath with heavy undead -- it seems unlikely they'd achieve consensus about it, at least beyond vague platitudes about disarmament in the name of peace. I always imagined the Treaty of Thronehold including provisions guaranteeing the rights of Awakened animals and sapient undead, too: As I've run it, Aundair made extensive use of the former, to the point of having entire shock companies of magebred bears led by Awakened magebred bear officers. And everybody knows about Karrnath's sentient undead. It seems odd that warforged would be afforded special recognition of their citizenship, while other sentient creations of magic would not be. (Sentient, but non-sapient, undead get no such protections: In my fanon I run, Karrnath went through a spell in the 950s and 960s of producing hundreds of boneyards, from Libris Mortis, for use against Aundair, Thrane, and Cyre. Nobody has forgotten the horrors those things wrought.)

Writing all of this out illustrates to me there's way too much going on behind the curtain in my Eberron game, especially in light of the fact that my PCs will never see most of it.
#6
jedi123
Nov 18, 2010 23:32:04

I was under the impression those limits were in the Korth Edicts. Where did I miss this?

Come to think of it you're right. I get some of the provisions mixed up with those two.
#7
morgrum
Dec 04, 2010 6:25:38 Since Eberron lacks the equivalent of the Geneva convention (AFAIK), I think a definition of war crimes and who would be prosecuted for them would also be included in the treaty. I can't imagine anyone would want to run the risk of signing the treaty and then having the Sentinel Marshals cart off half of their high command the next day.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dan_vk Nov 16, 2010 14:22:18	Here are the known provisions of the Treaty of Thronehold: New borders were establish, and Aundair, Breland, Darguun, the Eldeen Reaches, Karrnath, the Lhazaar Principalities, the Mror Holds, Q’barra, the Talenta Plains, Thrane, Valenar, and Zilargo were recognized as sovereign nations, while Droaam, the Shadow Marches, the Demon Wastes, and the Mournland remained indistinct regions. Warforged were declared people, not property, and House Cannith was forbidden to produce more warforged. All existing letters of marque were declared void. Throneport was established as a multinational province under the eyes of House Deneith’s Throne Wardens. Castle Galifar was declared off-limits to all but its keepers. House Deneith’s Sentinel Marshalls were tasked with capturing war criminals, and the Tribunal was formed to judge them. I recall reading somewhere, perhaps in a post by Hellcow, that the Treaty of Thronehold is based on the real world Treaty of Versailles. What are some things you think should be in the Treaty of Thronehold but are not mentioned in sourcebooks? I am surprised there is no mention of military restrictions, such as a cap on the number of troops and a prohibition against the stockpiling of magical arms.
#2 Juums Nov 17, 2010 16:03:43	As the Treaty of Thronehold was negotiated between powers that had relative parity with one another, caps on the number of deployable troops would have either never on the table in the first place, because no one had the power to enforce them, or were abandoned during negotiations because it was rightly seen that no one would have had an incentive to comply without a guarantor of sufficient power to bring cap-breakers to heel. The cap on the size of the interwar Reichswehr that resulted from Versailles, after all, was a punitive measure taken by the Allies in the hopes of keeping Germany unable to make war for at least a generation. Meanwhile, you did see the various powers agree to at least one provision prohibiting the stockpiling of magical arms: The decision to destroy House Cannith's creation forges. I dimly recall one of the Sharn Inquisitive newsposts being about a diplomatic row between Breland and Karrnath about the latter's continued stockpiling of undead in contravention of the Treaty of Thronehold. I imagine a lot of the text of the Treaty of Thronehold is actually dedicated to the minutae of territorial realignment, sorting out issues of repatriation of citizens, compensation of nobles, and resolution of ownership of high-value assets in both newly formed nations and between the Five Nations whose territory changed hands with the new borders. From my own runnings of it, I've always liked the Treaty of Thronehold as a half-implemented document: As alluded to above, one of my favorite points of friction to insert is that the disarmament provisions were fairly large, requiring not only the destruction of the creation forges but the drawing down and destruction of Karrnath's undead legions, Breland's bound-elemental war machines, and Aundair's war-time arcane colleges. (As well as Thrane's legions of bound celestials, though that's a quirk of my take on the setting.) Thus far, the still-standing Five Nations have dragged their feet in complying, with House Cannith raising a royal stink about being coerced into destroying its livelihood while everyone else ignores their obligations under the same provisions. (To the point that House Cannith's put a moratorium on disassembling its creation forges in protest. Though that, again, is my game and its subplots crowding out the canon.)
#3 jedi123 Nov 17, 2010 16:14:14	One feature to remember is, IIRC, it also has tried to put a stop to alliances between Dragonmarked Houses and National Royalty. THere are other factors that were made in an attempt by the nations to limit the houses power.
#4 dan_vk Nov 18, 2010 12:58:44	As the Treaty of Thronehold was negotiated between powers that had relative parity with one another, caps on the number of deployable troops would have either never on the table in the first place, because no one had the power to enforce them, or were abandoned during negotiations because it was rightly seen that no one would have had an incentive to comply without a guarantor of sufficient power to bring cap-breakers to heel. The cap on the size of the interwar Reichswehr that resulted from Versailles, after all, was a punitive measure taken by the Allies in the hopes of keeping Germany unable to make war for at least a generation. Fair enough. Considering the pushing match international politics tends to be, that is a more than reasonable possibility. Although there is no source material to support it, I imagine the Treaty of Thronehold more closely resembling the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Since Aundair, Breland, Karrnath, and Thrane were most likely the strongest negotiators, signatories would be prohibited from expanding their militaries beyond a certain number, but existing militaries would be pared down over time. Meanwhile, you did see the various powers agree to at least one provision prohibiting the stockpiling of magical arms: The decision to destroy House Cannith's creation forges. For some reason I never thought of the ban on creating new warforged as a nonproliferation clause, but that makes a lot of sense. I always saw it in the context of individual rights for a newly-freed people. What do you think about prohibitions against siege engines, such as battlebriars and warforged of limited intelligence, like warforged titans? I dimly recall one of the Sharn Inquisitive newsposts being about a diplomatic row between Breland and Karrnath about the latter's continued stockpiling of undead in contravention of the Treaty of Thronehold. I should look that up! It could be very useful for the campaign I am currently running. I imagine a lot of the text of the Treaty of Thronehold is actually dedicated to the minutae of territorial realignment, sorting out issues of repatriation of citizens, compensation of nobles, and resolution of ownership of high-value assets in both newly formed nations and between the Five Nations whose territory changed hands with the new borders. This is how I imagine it, too. A lot of territory changed hands. (As well as Thrane's legions of bound celestials, though that's a quirk of my take on the setting.) That is brilliant. I hope you do not mind me stealing the idea. One feature to remember is, IIRC, it also has tried to put a stop to alliances between Dragonmarked Houses and National Royalty. THere are other factors that were made in an attempt by the nations to limit the houses power. I was under the impression those limits were in the Korth Edicts. Where did I miss this?
#5 Juums Nov 18, 2010 14:07:20	@Dan_VK: While I'm still not a fan of the idea of Treaty of Thronehold containing troop caps, I can definitely get behind the idea of it being discriminatory against the non-Five Nations denizens of Khorvaire. I always envisioned it as...well, the Treaty of Versailles, but in the technical sense: The Treaty of Versailles, after all, only dealth with the Allied disposition of the German Empire. Separate treaties, the Treaties of St. Germaine and Sevres, disposed of the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires. So the Treaty of Thronehold was, mainly, an agreement between Aundair, Breland, Karrnath, and Thrane to end their own conflict, with the Treaty of Throneport being signed a few days later in which the Five Nations, as a bloc, dictated terms to the nations created by the war. I also always thought it made sense for the Treaty of Thronehold to treat the nations beyond the Five Nations differently: Zilargo, Eldeen Reaches, New Galifer, and Mror Holds probably get a better deal, as they're culturally part of the Five Nations, while a harsher shake is reserved for Darguun, Valenar, and Droamm. (To the point of non-recognition of the Droammite state in the Treaty of Thronehold.) With regard to warforged...well, in the canon, I suspect a creation forge is a creation forge: As all of them were destroyed, the issue of what to do about the various forms of less intelligent warforged mooted itself. That said, in the game I'm currently running, what to do about non-sapient warforged is a major political issue and bone of contention. As the heavy warforged are very much what, in modern parlance, would be dual-use technology. A warforged titan can be an awesome tool of destruction, but if you replace its axe-and-maul with hands, it can also be an incredibly useful tool of heavy industry; a steel kraken can be a tool of control of the seas, but it can also be way to maintain shipping channels and towing ships through difficult waters; and a warforged raptor can delivers parcels just as easily as rocks from on-high. House Cannith has strenously argued that the creation forge destruction provisions applied only those producing "compact" warforged -- standard-issue sapient warforged, warforged scouts, and psiforged -- and that it would resist, through force of arms in necessary, attempts by national governments to force to dismantles its creation forges dedicated to producing "heavy" warforged. (That said creation forges could easily be repurposed to produce more sapient warforged remains unstated, though everyone knows it.) On the subject of arcane siege engines and fantastic warbeasts, I think the signatoreis of the Treaty of Thronehold would have agreed to disagree on that: As some powers were likely more dependant upon them than others -- i.e. Aundair with battlebriars, Karrnath with heavy undead -- it seems unlikely they'd achieve consensus about it, at least beyond vague platitudes about disarmament in the name of peace. I always imagined the Treaty of Thronehold including provisions guaranteeing the rights of Awakened animals and sapient undead, too: As I've run it, Aundair made extensive use of the former, to the point of having entire shock companies of magebred bears led by Awakened magebred bear officers. And everybody knows about Karrnath's sentient undead. It seems odd that warforged would be afforded special recognition of their citizenship, while other sentient creations of magic would not be. (Sentient, but non-sapient, undead get no such protections: In my fanon I run, Karrnath went through a spell in the 950s and 960s of producing hundreds of boneyards, from Libris Mortis, for use against Aundair, Thrane, and Cyre. Nobody has forgotten the horrors those things wrought.) Writing all of this out illustrates to me there's way too much going on behind the curtain in my Eberron game, especially in light of the fact that my PCs will never see most of it.
#6 jedi123 Nov 18, 2010 23:32:04	I was under the impression those limits were in the Korth Edicts. Where did I miss this? Come to think of it you're right. I get some of the provisions mixed up with those two.
#7 morgrum Dec 04, 2010 6:25:38	Since Eberron lacks the equivalent of the Geneva convention (AFAIK), I think a definition of war crimes and who would be prosecuted for them would also be included in the treaty. I can't imagine anyone would want to run the risk of signing the treaty and then having the Sentinel Marshals cart off half of their high command the next day.