What do Karrns think of the use of undead by their nation's armies? How do they feel about their sons', brothers', and fathers' corpses being used as fodder instead of being given an honorable buriel? Do the people accept this as the "will of their betters", is there very vocal internal opposition to it, or is there quiet opposition (which seems the most likely to me because of the authoritarian nature of the government there)? Tell me what you think.
But that's the Blood of Vol. We've stated elsewhere that there are Karrns who strongly oppose the use of undead. Page 77 of City of Stormreach mentions Drago Thul, the leader of the Swords of Karrn, as a veteran commander who feels undead sully the practice of war. Bear in mind that many Karrns follow the Sovereign Host, and share the same general beliefs towards the dead as people in other lands. The Silver Flame is the faith that is strongly opposed to use of undead, so it's Thrane that most despises this... but there's certainly lots of room for Karrns that are uncomfortable with the practice.
Anyhow, just my thoughts. ;)
But that's the Blood of Vol. We've stated elsewhere that there are Karrns who strongly oppose the use of undead. Page 77 of City of Stormreach mentions Drago Thul, the leader of the Swords of Karrn, as a veteran commander who feels undead sully the practice of war. Bear in mind that many Karrns follow the Sovereign Host, and share the same general beliefs towards the dead as people in other lands. The Silver Flame is the faith that is strongly opposed to use of undead, so it's Thrane that most despises this... but there's certainly lots of room for Karrns that are uncomfortable with the practice.
My thinking now is about whether there might be any underground organized resistance to it within Karrnath itself...
So many juicy ideas.
.When I think of the effect that using undead in the military has had on Karrnathi society, my mind goes straight to the soldiers on the battlefield who might one day be those undead. It mentions somewhere in one of the books that soldiers are proud of the thought that they might serve their country even in death, but I tend to think that applies only to the most fanatical members of the blood of Vol and/or fanatically patriotic of the soldiers.
Your average soldier might view it as just one more way the higher-ups can screw him over. Think about it: he takes orders from officers for a living, and they have the power of life or death over him. He gets tossed into battle against mages, griffons, warforged battle machines, roving fortresses, and any of a number of other fantastical war devices which a common soldier like him has no real hope of overcoming except in superior numbers and with great casualties. And this is on top of the general crappiness that is war in all times and all settings.
So he probably regards the possibility that, even after death, he might still be forced into fighting this crazy war, with a kind of gallows humor. In one of my campaigns I had a grizzled old Karrn veteran tell this joke: "What's the difference betweem a Karrn officer and an Aundarian battlemage? The Aundarian will only get you killed once!" I think it encapsulates the sort of attitude that would pervade the lower ranks of the Karrnathi military with regards to their officers. They might love their country and think that war is inevitable, but they still hate the sissy rear-echelon officers that issue orders and get the grunts killed.
I sort of wandered off topic a bit there, but I hope you get something helpful out of it anyway. Just my 2 cents.
It's hard to follow up the creator of the setting on this kind of question, but I'll give it a shot
When I think of the effect that using undead in the military has had on Karrnathi society, my mind goes straight to the soldiers on the battlefield who might one day be those undead. It mentions somewhere in one of the books that soldiers are proud of the thought that they might serve their country even in death, but I tend to think that applies only to the most fanatical members of the blood of Vol and/or fanatically patriotic of the soldiers.
Your average soldier might view it as just one more way the higher-ups can screw him over. Think about it: he takes orders from officers for a living, and they have the power of life or death over him. He gets tossed into battle against mages, griffons, warforged battle machines, roving fortresses, and any of a number of other fantastical war devices which a common soldier like him has no real hope of overcoming except in superior numbers and with great casualties. And this is on top of the general crappiness that is war in all times and all settings.
So he probably regards the possibility that, even after death, he might still be forced into fighting this crazy war, with a kind of gallows humor. In one of my campaigns I had a grizzled old Karrn veteran tell this joke: "What's the difference betweem a Karrn officer and an Aundarian battlemage? The Aundarian will only get you killed once!" I think it encapsulates the sort of attitude that would pervade the lower ranks of the Karrnathi military with regards to their officers. They might love their country and think that war is inevitable, but they still hate the sissy rear-echelon officers that issue orders and get the grunts killed.
I sort of wandered off topic a bit there, but I hope you get something helpful out of it anyway. Just my 2 cents.
As Mr. Baker indicated, there are probably also officers who feel disgruntled at the use of undead. The two posts together are starting to indicate that there may be a widespread, secret movement within Karrnath which is silently (for now) opposed to the use of undead, and given the right motivation may become the nucleus around which a popular revolt may occur. I was always uncomfortable with the idea that many people followed the Blood of Vol; I had it in my head that it was mainly the religion of the nobles in Karrnath.
This could very well neatly separate the two sides in a civil war centered around the Blood of Vol and the use of undead in the Karrnathi military. There could be a (nearly) completely unexpected French-style revolution in the country. The amusing part about it, to me, is that I see the vampiric King Kaius actually siding with the rebels against the largely Blood of Vol-dominated aristocracy!
A few nobles might have connections to the organization, or even be high-ranking members of certain cells, but on the whole they fear the change to the status quo that a Claw revolution would bring. Also Kaius has his own devious ways of ensuring the loyalty of his nobility, or at least ferret out the most disloyal. Not that those ways always work.
.And yeah, I like your take as well! The important thing is to set up a tangled ball of loyalties, betrayals, tensions, and philosophies. Karrnath is a great backdrop for class upheaval and gray morality adventuring.
My thinking now is about whether there might be any underground organized resistance to it within Karrnath itself...
There was a mention of the Red Watchers:
"Magic of Eberron introduces a new organization dedicated to fighting the undead -- the Red Watchers, who seek to cleanse the land of Karrnath... Most members of the organization come from a background with the Silver Flame or the Sovereign Host"
There was a mention of the Red Watchers:
"Magic of Eberron introduces a new organization dedicated to fighting the undead -- the Red Watchers, who seek to cleanse the land of Karrnath... Most members of the organization come from a background with the Silver Flame or the Sovereign Host"
Sooooooooo useful. Thank you very much.
For a change of perspective, I once used a cell of them as the story's villains. Well-intentioned, but still fanatical crusaders that posed a significant threat to the PCs(almost all Seekers) and Karrnathi stability.
A threat to Karrnathi stability is exactly what I'm looking for! Hehe...
When I think of the effect that using undead in the military has had on Karrnathi society, my mind goes straight to the soldiers on the battlefield who might one day be those undead. It mentions somewhere in one of the books that soldiers are proud of the thought that they might serve their country even in death, but I tend to think that applies only to the most fanatical members of the blood of Vol and/or fanatically patriotic of the soldiers.
I agree with you on regular soldiers. Karrns who follow the Sovereigns may be troubled by it, and the Karrn vs. Aundarian joke is great. But I don't think it requires any special fanatacism on the part of Blood of Vol followers. It's a cornerstone of the faith. The BoV is based on a few basic principles. Mortals stand alone against a hostile universe. If the gods exist they are our enemies: as such, it is vital that we support our familiy and our neighbors, because our community is all that we have. The spark of divinity that defines us is in our blood - and once that blood is gone, so is everything that was us. The bones of your uncle are not your uncle. There is no reason to revere them. And if those bonds can protect your nephw - potentially keep him from dying as well - that is an obvious thing to do. It's not a sacrifice, because there's no value to the thing being "sacrificed". In the BoV you value people in life. You value their memory and their legacy in death. But the physical corpse is no part of that.
So again, the key is that the BoV holds no reverence for the corpse and places an extreme emphasis on protecting kin and community. Having your corpse serve or protect your community after death is simply logical, and more than that, a practice that has been part of BoV tradition long before the war... so within the BoV there's no need for fanaticism.
I agree with you on regular soldiers. Karrns who follow the Sovereigns may be troubled by it, and the Karrn vs. Aundarian joke is great. But I don't think it requires any special fanatacism on the part of Blood of Vol followers. It's a cornerstone of the faith. The BoV is based on a few basic principles. Mortals stand alone against a hostile universe. If the gods exist they are our enemies: as such, it is vital that we support our familiy and our neighbors, because our community is all that we have. The spark of divinity that defines us is in our blood - and once that blood is gone, so is everything that was us. The bones of your uncle are not your uncle. There is no reason to revere them. And if those bonds can protect your nephw - potentially keep him from dying as well - that is an obvious thing to do. It's not a sacrifice, because there's no value to the thing being "sacrificed". In the BoV you value people in life. You value their memory and their legacy in death. But the physical corpse is no part of that.
So again, the key is that the BoV holds no reverence for the corpse and places an extreme emphasis on protecting kin and community. Having your corpse serve or protect your community after death is simply logical, and more than that, a practice that has been part of BoV tradition long before the war... so within the BoV there's no need for fanaticism.
Would you say that the Blood of Vol is definitely a more populist religion in that respect, or would you say it's just as valid to interpret it as a mainly aristocratic (or those aspiring to be aristocrats) cult? Obviously I get that the DM is the final authority on interpretation in his own game, but I wanted to know if such an "aristocratic cult" interpretation would be very different from your original intentions on the character of the faith?
Having your corpse serve or protect your community after death is simply logical, and more than that, a practice that has been part of BoV tradition long before the war... so within the BoV there's no need for fanaticism.
I've been following this thread closely. The adventure I'm working on right now involves the Qabalrin and I'm filtering for info about the BoV's origins.
I find the "long before the war" part interesting. I assume then that it was when Kauis made his deal with the Queen of the Dead that undead soldiers became mainstream? Undead warriors protected BoV communities before that and it was just a quieter subject?
I find the "long before the war" part interesting. I assume then that it was when Kauis made his deal with the Queen of the Dead that undead soldiers became mainstream? Undead warriors protected BoV communities before that and it was just a quieter subject?
I think he was referring to the origin of the Blood of Vol, which stretches back to the elves of Xen'drik, the now-defunct 13th mark of death, and the old house of Vol.
It'a always good to hear from Hellcow, thanks for still hanging around the forums here. I've got a group who may head into Karrnath soon, and it's nice to brush up on my regional lore in case they meet any members of the Blood or the Claw.
[Would you say that the Blood of Vol is definitely a more populist religion in that respect... Obviously I get that the DM is the final authority on interpretation in his own game, but I wanted to know if such an "aristocratic cult" interpretation would be very different from your original intentions on the character of the faith?
As you say, as DM you're the final authority in your campaign. But as far as my original intent goes...
There are, essentially, two very different philosophical approaches at work within the Blood of Vol itself.
The first is one that thrives on hardship. It is a faith sown among people who have suffered through famine and plague. There are many ways to answer the question "What just god would allow our suffering?" - the Blood of Vol answer is "None; if the gods exist than they are against us. Perhaps one day our champions will find a way to defeat the gods or shatter the curse of immortality. That is their fight. But for now, what matters most of all is that we care for one another, for no higher power cares for us. Nothing awaits us beyond death but dissolution and oblivion in Dolurrh. This life is all we have, so treasure it. Make the most of it. And do your best to protect those that you love."
So in my mind, this is a faith of common people who have to deal with hardship. The undead are a secondary aspect. Intelligent undead champions of the faith have sacrificed the potential for true divinity to evade the curse of mortality, and the commonfolk assume they are working for the greater good. But people don't especially want to become vampires or liches - who after all, have had to sacrifice their spark of divinity to become undead - and these things aren't a part of their regular lives. The non-sentient undead are simply tools, based on the fact that the priests are skilled at creating undead and that there is no reverence attached to the physical corpse. In a time of famine and plague, they see it as logical to have the priest raise the bodies of those who die of starvation to help till the land for those still alive.
An aristocrat who already lives a comfortable life has little reason to question the beneficence of the gods. Heck, divine right was often used to explain why those who lived in luxury lived in luxury - the gods chose them. However, this gets to the second branch of the BoV: the people who believe that it is possible to attain personal immortality in this life through personal discipline... or people who want to become vampires or liches because they want the personal power and immortality (flawed though it may be) that comes with it. Most of the inner circle of the Order of the Emerald Claw take this approach. They don't care about freeing the masses from death; they just want to ascend to divinity themselves. And this is certainly more of an aristocratic approach.
I find the "long before the war" part interesting. I assume then that it was when Kauis made his deal with the Queen of the Dead that undead soldiers became mainstream? Undead warriors protected BoV communities before that and it was just a quieter subject?
Undead soldiers serving in the armies of Karrnath were new as of that deal. However, BoV communities made use of zombies and skeletons before that, simply as a smaller thing. They weren't trying to raise armies, and in many cases the undead would be used for simple manual labor as opposed to being equipped for war (and remember that Karrnathi undead have to be made from elite soldiers who died in battle - so those farm zombies were normal zombies). But undead have always been around in Seeker communities, just low-key. And not in great numbers, as not every community has a priest capable of doing it.
As Mr. Baker indicated, there are probably also officers who feel disgruntled at the use of undead.
In my Eberron novel, the main protagonist is the prime example of one, to the point where he's become an outlaw. He sometimes works with the Red Watchers, but mostly he goes it solo.
Nevertheless, "Risen Patriots" is a very evocative name, and I can only assume that while some soldiers may dislike the use of undead units on moral grounds, and others might dislike them because they are DIFFERENT, still others must embrace them.
The flip side of this whole issue is the people in Karrn society who like the fact that they can continue to serve their country even in death... I can only assume that while some soldiers may dislike the use of undead units on moral grounds, and others might dislike them because they are DIFFERENT, still others must embrace them.
And I agree.
The Karrns are a grim, martial society. Culturally, they are a nation that believes in victory at all costs. For most Karrns, the willingness to serve as undead is an aspect of that - it is the raw determination that will eventually bring them victory over the weaker Brelish and Thranes. If they die on the battlefield and their body is left to rot, they have in a sense surrendered. If their body is raised to fight again, they have the chance to fight on in some form - to bring down the enemy and in doing so, to protect their nation and save their children and loved ones.
Yes, there are Karrns who believe that RELIANCE on the undead weakens Karrnath's martial traditions. There are those who believe that it's unnatural, especially those with strong faith in the Sovereigns. But even among those who DO think it unnatural, some are willing to make the sacrifice, because that's what soldiers do... make sacrifices to protect their nation. You don't understand that, Aundairian, and that's why your queen will never wear the crown of Galifar.
So whether or not Karrns LIKE the undead, I think the majority of them ACCEPT it. Those who are strongly opposed to it are in the minority. Drago Thul and Tallis are exiles or outlaws. Soldiers may make grim jokes about it, but they still serve... at least until it looks like a leader like Thul has a serious chance of changing things, at which point we'll see how the sides are drawn.