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Undying and The Blood of Vol

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
minoritarian
May 10, 2008 5:27:55 Has anybody else thought of placing some undying (such as those from BoED) in the ranks of the Blood of Vol? I know that thematically it's supposed to have developed from the teachings of a line of negative-energy using necromancers but the religion is aimed at overcoming the curse of death not upon becoming undead. With that in mind surely they'd have explored other methods of overcoming death and creating champions and creating Undying doesn't seem so far a stretch.

Or am I being silly?
#2
elrodian
May 10, 2008 10:01:25 Well i did not totaly understand what you said. But I think you are asking if Deadless, like the Undying Court, in the Blood of Vol but i think that they would be lichs not Deadless becaues the Deadless are created form positive energy and you can only create the deadless in the City of the Dead becaues it is a large Manifest Zones of Irian. So I think there would be liches in the Blood of Vol becaues they use negative energy. Aeranal is also a large Manifest Zones for ngative energy but with the Vol not even allow close to Aeranal(becaues they do not know she is lich) They would have to have a different Manifest Zone. But i think that Vol Castel, Illmarrow Castle, could be a large Manifest Zone of Illmarrow Castle so she could make lichs.
Back to the question i think there lichs not Deadless in the Blood of Vol.
#3
Hellcow
May 10, 2008 13:11:24
you can only create the deadless in the City of the Dead becaues it is a large Manifest Zones of Irian.

Elrodian has hit on a key point here. It's not 100% true, but it's on the right track. In looking to the Deathless...

It's not a simple process. It took the elves ten thousand years to figure out how to create deathless - time the line of Vol spent learning to create liches, vampires, and the like.
It requires access to a powerful Irian manifest zone. Aerenal actually has a bunch of these, Shae Mordai being the most powerful.
The Deathless require positive energy to sustain their existence. The Undying can leave their manifest zones, but when they do the positive energy that sustains them is the devotion of their followers (which spreads to them as a whole; no one specifically worships Undying soldier Bob, but the cultural devotion to the Undying Court creates a pool of positive energy that sustains him). Essentially, just as the vampire takes life energy to sustain its existence, the Undying require spiritual energy - it's simply the case that this energy can be giving freely and without harming the devotee. But if you killed all of the living followers of the Undying Court, you would cripple the Aereni deathless and trap them in their manifest zones.

Both the Blood of Vol, the Undying Court, and for that matter the Tairnadal faith are based on avoiding death. But all three took different paths, and each path requires significant research and devotion. In my opinion, it's unlikely anyone associated with the Blood of Vol knows the secret of creating greater deathless... and even if they did, they'd need to have connection to Irian and a cult personally devoted to supported those deathless (the whole spiritual energy flow is specifically tied to the rites and rituals of the Undying Court, just as the rites and rituals of the Blood of Vol include giving blood to sustain vampire champions; again, it's an entirely different spiritual tradition).

It's certainly supposed to be the case that you could find deathless elsewhere in the world, but the idea is that it should be a similar arrangement to Aerenal - a cultural pillar in which the Deathless draw strength from their living devotees. By comparison, negative undeath could be seen as selfish (or at least "independent"); the negative undead can take the energy it needs to survive if it's not freely given. So the Dragonshard computer game actually has dwarven deathless from a barbarian tribe that's supposed to have developed its own deathless techniques - but like the elves, it's the case of the deathless being sustained by the devotion of their descendents.
#4
siran_dunmorgan
May 11, 2008 14:50:28 Now, this begs the question of the tradition out of which the Aereni developed the Deathless in the first place. The tradition of the Undying Court and the Priests of Transition clearly opposes the Blood of Vol, but we can reasonably ask whether this is a matter of politics or of more fundamental philosophy.

Phrased more simply, does the tradition of the Aereni derive from the same, initially Qabalrin philosophies and practices as does the Blood of Vol, or was there another tradition among the elves and giants that dealt with the life-giving, life-sharing aspect of Irian-based energy of which we are unaware?

We know that the Qabalrin tradition—and therefore the Blood of Vol—did not develop in an intellectual vacuum: the techniques by which aspects of magical power or the influence of other planes and various elements are bound into a bloodline is seen in the context of the Qabalrin, in the Umbragen, in the Sulatar, and in the various races of giants, these latter apparently produced by binding elemental or planar powers into various family lines of the original titan-like race.

The Qabalrin, and after them the Blood of Vol, learned to bind certain aspects of Mabar to the bodies of the dead: it is not much of a stretch to believe that the rituals and practices of the Aereni adapted these to create the Deathless. However, there are clear differences: the most fundamental of these being that Irian is a giving thing, where Mabar is a taking thing. It's not simply a matter of reversing the polarity of the required rituals.[1]

Hellcow suggests that the development of the Deathless required the giving aspect of the community to become focused on sharing the energies, the gifts of Irian: this perspective is very different from the Blood of Vol, which focuses on gathering the energies to the individual.

That the specific practices involved are not all that different—suggesting a Qabalrin source for both traditions—is seen in the growing popularity of the Stillborn within Aereni culture: that they can, reasonably, turn to the possibility of becoming undead rather than Deathless suggests that the traditions are not altogether that different.

That said, the idea of one of the Deathless practicing the rites of the Blood of Vol is not unreasonable, merely unlikely.

On the other hand, a Deathless champion being admitted by the hierarchy of the religion is… unlikely in the extreme, if for no other reason than Erandis d'Vol herself bears a certain grudge against them. Note, for instance, that she arms her priests with targath weapons. It's unlikely the only reason for that is to protect her priests from disease.

—Siran Dunmorgan

[1] I suspect that this was originally tried, but resulted in the obliteration of the body in a burst of holy fire, rather than the binding of its consciousness.
#5
elrodian
May 11, 2008 16:05:21 Siran Dunmorgan that is very cool and brings up alot of good points.

I think it is very likely that the The Qabalrin help developed both froms of createing bring what do not die. But i done reacher and i did read that the The Qabalrin are the ancestors of the line of Vol so i would think that The Qabalrin helped the Blood of Vol in froming there champians more then the Deadless but they could have use some of the points form them to help.

Now the when it comes to Deadless being in the ranks of The Blood of Vol i do not think it would happen. As you said Siran they Blood of Vol is foces on the individual and the Deadless foces on the community. So why would a Deadless even to take part in the Blood of Vol.

The Basic idea of cerateing the to different froms is the same but they use different energy and the ways to keep them form falling in to dusts are different. Like Hellcow said a deadless needs it's worshipers. or they would have to stay in the Manefest Zone to stay in being.

The Blood of Vol does not worship a being so deathless in it ranks would could not be

I am sorry for spelling mistakes i am going out to and i found out in the middle of writeing this.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 minoritarian May 10, 2008 5:27:55	Has anybody else thought of placing some undying (such as those from BoED) in the ranks of the Blood of Vol? I know that thematically it's supposed to have developed from the teachings of a line of negative-energy using necromancers but the religion is aimed at overcoming the curse of death not upon becoming undead. With that in mind surely they'd have explored other methods of overcoming death and creating champions and creating Undying doesn't seem so far a stretch. Or am I being silly?
#2 elrodian May 10, 2008 10:01:25	Well i did not totaly understand what you said. But I think you are asking if Deadless, like the Undying Court, in the Blood of Vol but i think that they would be lichs not Deadless becaues the Deadless are created form positive energy and you can only create the deadless in the City of the Dead becaues it is a large Manifest Zones of Irian. So I think there would be liches in the Blood of Vol becaues they use negative energy. Aeranal is also a large Manifest Zones for ngative energy but with the Vol not even allow close to Aeranal(becaues they do not know she is lich) They would have to have a different Manifest Zone. But i think that Vol Castel, Illmarrow Castle, could be a large Manifest Zone of Illmarrow Castle so she could make lichs. Back to the question i think there lichs not Deadless in the Blood of Vol.
#3 Hellcow May 10, 2008 13:11:24	you can only create the deadless in the City of the Dead becaues it is a large Manifest Zones of Irian. Elrodian has hit on a key point here. It's not 100% true, but it's on the right track. In looking to the Deathless... It's not a simple process. It took the elves ten thousand years to figure out how to create deathless - time the line of Vol spent learning to create liches, vampires, and the like. It requires access to a powerful Irian manifest zone. Aerenal actually has a bunch of these, Shae Mordai being the most powerful. The Deathless require positive energy to sustain their existence. The Undying can leave their manifest zones, but when they do the positive energy that sustains them is the devotion of their followers (which spreads to them as a whole; no one specifically worships Undying soldier Bob, but the cultural devotion to the Undying Court creates a pool of positive energy that sustains him). Essentially, just as the vampire takes life energy to sustain its existence, the Undying require spiritual energy - it's simply the case that this energy can be giving freely and without harming the devotee. But if you killed all of the living followers of the Undying Court, you would cripple the Aereni deathless and trap them in their manifest zones. Both the Blood of Vol, the Undying Court, and for that matter the Tairnadal faith are based on avoiding death. But all three took different paths, and each path requires significant research and devotion. In my opinion, it's unlikely anyone associated with the Blood of Vol knows the secret of creating greater deathless... and even if they did, they'd need to have connection to Irian and a cult personally devoted to supported those deathless (the whole spiritual energy flow is specifically tied to the rites and rituals of the Undying Court, just as the rites and rituals of the Blood of Vol include giving blood to sustain vampire champions; again, it's an entirely different spiritual tradition). It's certainly supposed to be the case that you could find deathless elsewhere in the world, but the idea is that it should be a similar arrangement to Aerenal - a cultural pillar in which the Deathless draw strength from their living devotees. By comparison, negative undeath could be seen as selfish (or at least "independent"); the negative undead can take the energy it needs to survive if it's not freely given. So the Dragonshard computer game actually has dwarven deathless from a barbarian tribe that's supposed to have developed its own deathless techniques - but like the elves, it's the case of the deathless being sustained by the devotion of their descendents.
#4 siran_dunmorgan May 11, 2008 14:50:28	Now, this begs the question of the tradition out of which the Aereni developed the Deathless in the first place. The tradition of the Undying Court and the Priests of Transition clearly opposes the Blood of Vol, but we can reasonably ask whether this is a matter of politics or of more fundamental philosophy. Phrased more simply, does the tradition of the Aereni derive from the same, initially Qabalrin philosophies and practices as does the Blood of Vol, or was there another tradition among the elves and giants that dealt with the life-giving, life-sharing aspect of Irian-based energy of which we are unaware? We know that the Qabalrin tradition—and therefore the Blood of Vol—did not develop in an intellectual vacuum: the techniques by which aspects of magical power or the influence of other planes and various elements are bound into a bloodline is seen in the context of the Qabalrin, in the Umbragen, in the Sulatar, and in the various races of giants, these latter apparently produced by binding elemental or planar powers into various family lines of the original titan-like race. The Qabalrin, and after them the Blood of Vol, learned to bind certain aspects of Mabar to the bodies of the dead: it is not much of a stretch to believe that the rituals and practices of the Aereni adapted these to create the Deathless. However, there are clear differences: the most fundamental of these being that Irian is a giving thing, where Mabar is a taking thing. It's not simply a matter of reversing the polarity of the required rituals.[1] Hellcow suggests that the development of the Deathless required the giving aspect of the community to become focused on sharing the energies, the gifts of Irian: this perspective is very different from the Blood of Vol, which focuses on gathering the energies to the individual. That the specific practices involved are not all that different—suggesting a Qabalrin source for both traditions—is seen in the growing popularity of the Stillborn within Aereni culture: that they can, reasonably, turn to the possibility of becoming undead rather than Deathless suggests that the traditions are not altogether that different. That said, the idea of one of the Deathless practicing the rites of the Blood of Vol is not unreasonable, merely unlikely. On the other hand, a Deathless champion being admitted by the hierarchy of the religion is… unlikely in the extreme, if for no other reason than Erandis d'Vol herself bears a certain grudge against them. Note, for instance, that she arms her priests with targath weapons. It's unlikely the only reason for that is to protect her priests from disease. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] I suspect that this was originally tried, but resulted in the obliteration of the body in a burst of holy fire, rather than the binding of its consciousness.
#5 elrodian May 11, 2008 16:05:21	Siran Dunmorgan that is very cool and brings up alot of good points. I think it is very likely that the The Qabalrin help developed both froms of createing bring what do not die. But i done reacher and i did read that the The Qabalrin are the ancestors of the line of Vol so i would think that The Qabalrin helped the Blood of Vol in froming there champians more then the Deadless but they could have use some of the points form them to help. Now the when it comes to Deadless being in the ranks of The Blood of Vol i do not think it would happen. As you said Siran they Blood of Vol is foces on the individual and the Deadless foces on the community. So why would a Deadless even to take part in the Blood of Vol. The Basic idea of cerateing the to different froms is the same but they use different energy and the ways to keep them form falling in to dusts are different. Like Hellcow said a deadless needs it's worshipers. or they would have to stay in the Manefest Zone to stay in being. The Blood of Vol does not worship a being so deathless in it ranks would could not be I am sorry for spelling mistakes i am going out to and i found out in the middle of writeing this.