In the 3.5 ECS we had:
1) Races of Eberron - 17 pages
2) Classes of Eberron - 15 pages
3) Heroic Characteristics - 28 pages
4) Prestige Classes - 16 pages
5) Magic of Eberron - 30 pages
6) Adventuring Equipment - 10 pages
7) Life in the World - 98 pages
8) Organizations of Eberron - 22 pages
9) An Eberron Campaign - 10 pages
10) Magic Items - 16 pages
11) Monsters - 32 pages
12) A sample adventure. - 11 pages
Based on the FRCS I'm guessing we'll get:
* A starting region in detail similar to Fallcrest of the DMG. It will have a sample adventure (taking the place of chapter 12).
* Magic of Eberron - A combination of Chapter 5 and Chapter 10 3.5 ECS
* Planes of Eberron - The rest of Chapter 3 from the 3.5 ECS
* Faiths of Eberron - Some of Chapter 8 from the 3.5 ECS
* Lands of Eberron - Chapter 7 from the 3.5 ECS
* Adventures in Eberron - Its been confirmed there'll be a chapter mentioning possible changes to Eberron as you move the timeline forward. Also include Chapter 9
* Threats of Eberron - The rest of Chapter 7.
Assuming there'll be equal sizes for the chapters from 3.5 Chapters and their counterparts in the 4e ECS (not really a safe assumption but we might as well go with it for now), also assuming the 4e ECS will be the same size as the 4e FRCS and finally if we assume the starting region will take 20 pages (in addition to the sample adventure), we'll have 66 pages unaccounted for.
With all of that, I think its safe to say some of the supplemental information from the 3.5 ECS books will be republished, but no single book will have all of its fluff reprinted. Even if those 60 pages were spent on the fluff from one book, would any book be able to have all of its fluff reprinted in 60? (Such as say Faiths of Eberron which seems the most crunch-centric after Races of Eberron and Magic of Eberron).
How much crunch is in the Sharn City of Towers book? Because even if they devote 90 pages to it, that's still 100 pages of material from the original book they can't include. So I'd say Sharn: City of Towers would still be a good buy.
Sharn City of Towers is like 5% crunch (not sure of the page count so I'll give you percentages). Probably one of the highest fluff to crunch books in the whole D&D 3rd ed line.
* Chapter 1 - Starting region. - 32 pages.
* Chapter 2: Adventuring - Info on possible ways in which the timeline could be advanced, history on Eberron. Some mundane treasure items, and a glossary (including some of Chapter 9). - 9 pages.
* Chapter 3: Magic - A combination of Chapter 5 (excluding planes) and Chapter 10 3.5 ECS - 11 pages.
* Chapter 4: Cosmology - Rest of Chapter 5 - 9 pages
* Chapter 5: Khorvaire and Beyond. - Chapter 7 - 100 pages.
* Chapter 6: Threats - Chapter 8 and Chapter 11 - 46 pages.
With these new pages numbers we now know that every single chapter in the 4e ECS will be the same size (if not smaller) as its 3.5e counterpart. And so 4e Eberron DMs should feel free to get the fluff heavy 3.5 Eberron supplements as very little, if any of it, will be reprinted in the 4e books.
Sharn City of Towers is like 5% crunch (not sure of the page count so I'll give you percentages). Probably one of the highest fluff to crunch books in the whole D&D 3rd ed line.
I'd guess the most fluffy one would be Dragons of Eberron. Just went through that and haven't found much crunchy except the CR36 big dragons.
Sharn City of Towers is like 5% crunch (not sure of the page count so I'll give you percentages). Probably one of the highest fluff to crunch books in the whole D&D 3rd ed line.
Luckily, a lot of the Eberron 3.5 books are very heavy on the fluff side, so they should still be quite viable for 4th ed.
I think i will get all of them as I only need 3 or so books to complete my my collection (yes i even have explorers handbook, I just love Eberron that much
)
.Anywho jokes aside, 60 pages to play with really isn't that much compared to the wealth of material that exists for Eberron in 3.5e. Which means that following the current maxim of Wizards, the uptake of Eberron will reflect the amount of material released both physically and digitally to supplement the ECS and Players Guide.
In other words, make your voices known, buy the stuff and we'll get more of it. Simple Keynsian economics. If it is successful, they'll give it more support.
Sharn City of Towers is like 5% crunch (not sure of the page count so I'll give you percentages). Probably one of the highest fluff to crunch books in the whole D&D 3rd ed line.
And, one of the books I've gotten the most bang for my buck for. Sharn City of Towers is amazing.
What we NEED in the ECS is information on Races, languages, Regions, Magic, Dragon marks. Now on Regions and Magic we need REAL information.
For regions we coudl use distribution of races in a given region, languages spoken, etc.
For Races we need detailed rules and information on how the races are different in Eberron, and how different races fit in here.
Basically I would like to see the ECS do all the things the FRCG FAILED to do so epically.
Cheers!
To respond to the OP's question i hope we get any REAL information rather than the useless twaddle that fleshes out the Forgotten Realms book.
What we NEED in the ECS is information on Races, languages, Regions, Magic, Dragon marks. Now on Regions and Magic we need REAL information.
For regions we coudl use distribution of races in a given region, languages spoken, etc.
For Races we need detailed rules and information on how the races are different in Eberron, and how different races fit in here.
Basically I would like to see the ECS do all the things the FRCG FAILED to do so epically.
Cheers!
Remember, they're a whole other book coming out for FR, wait for that and you'll probably have all of the stuff you want.
Remember, they're a whole other book coming out for FR, wait for that and you'll probably have all of the stuff you want.
If you are reffering to the Player's guide I have trouble keeping my hopes up. I thought since the next books was a players guide the FRCG would be a default DM's guide and it is a poor excise for a DM's guide.
Being mainly concerned with playing in Eberron I was looking at the Realms books to see what we could look forward to, or in this case fear from the ECS.
So be afraid. Be very afraid.
Cheers!
Personally I hope they avoid the Eberron equivalent of the Loudwater chapter though, I was otherwise moderately happy with the FRCG.
We need to remember that the ECS will be spread between two books.
No we need to remember that WotC has decided to charge us for two books for the information that we paid for in one book last edition. At least we can HOPE that the players guide give us that information. I for one refuse to hold my breath even if I am playing a Warforged.
Cheers!
No we need to remember that WotC has decided to charge us for two books for the information that we paid for in one book last edition. At least we can HOPE that the players guide give us that information. I for one refuse to hold my breath even if I am playing a Warforged.
Cheers!
Great to see the negativity isn't confined to the FR forums now
Great to see the negativity isn't confined to the FR forums now
Just trying to do my part to save my beloved Eberron from the same shabby treatment that the FR is currently getting in its FRCG right now.
Cheers!
With the ECG and EPG, this is being kept in mind from day one. The ECG is a book for the DM and ONLY for the DM. It's NOT going to include information about the operation of dragonmarks, because that's information players AND DMs need - and therefore, information that will appear in the EPG. On the other hand, it will include information about the secret schemes of the dragonmarked houses - because that's information that the players should know nothing about.
Meanwhile, the EPG includes information aimed at both players AND DMs. This is where you'll see information about races, religions, feats, and what you might know as a CITIZEN of a nation - as opposed to the ECG, which tells you the secrets going on in a nation that players shouldn't know, such as which king might not be what he seems and what evil power is really manipulating religion X.
Essentially, the DM needs the EPG. It's going to have dragonmarks, the artificer, information about warforged, and all of that. It's going to tell the player what it means to come from Thrane or Valenar. But the player doesn't need the ECG - because this is the book that will talk about the Lords of Dust, the Dreaming Dark, the deep history of the world that you won't know without a high History skill, and the schemes that are building in the shadows.
I can't speak to the FRCG, not having worked on it. However, having worked in the ECG, I can talk about that. Essentially, the original ECS was designed to be the only book you needed for Eberron, including all information vital to both players AND DMs - with the consequence that, due to limited space, the country descriptions include things the DMs might have wished to keep secret, and so on.
With the ECG and EPG, this is being kept in mind from day one. The ECG is a book for the DM and ONLY for the DM. It's NOT going to include information about the operation of dragonmarks, because that's information players AND DMs need - and therefore, information that will appear in the EPG. On the other hand, it will include information about the secret schemes of the dragonmarked houses - because that's information that the players should know nothing about.
Meanwhile, the EPG includes information aimed at both players AND DMs. This is where you'll see information about races, religions, feats, and what you might know as a CITIZEN of a nation - as opposed to the ECG, which tells you the secrets going on in a nation that players shouldn't know, such as which king might not be what he seems and what evil power is really manipulating religion X.
Essentially, the DM needs the EPG. It's going to have dragonmarks, the artificer, information about warforged, and all of that. It's going to tell the player what it means to come from Thrane or Valenar. But the player doesn't need the ECG - because this is the book that will talk about the Lords of Dust, the Dreaming Dark, the deep history of the world that you won't know without a high History skill, and the schemes that are building in the shadows.
Excellent idea!
I really was annoyed that every single player for some reason seemed to know that Kaius III was a vampire (so much, that he might never be so in my campaigns), that Erandis d'Vol was the head of the Blood of Vol religion and that she was staying in the Lhazaar region (which would only be a rumour in my campaigns) and that Cardinal Krozen was evil.
With the ECG and EPG, this is being kept in mind from day one. The ECG is a book for the DM and ONLY for the DM. It's NOT going to include information about the operation of dragonmarks, because that's information players AND DMs need - and therefore, information that will appear in the EPG. On the other hand, it will include information about the secret schemes of the dragonmarked houses - because that's information that the players should know nothing about.
After reading the FRCG I STILL hardly know anything about the regions that I shoudl know as a DM. It gives a sparse bare bones gloss of the regions. The books does a horrible job as a DM guide. I hope that the ECG does better.
It could hardly do worse.
CHeers!
Don't change the setting!
There's no plans to substantially change the setting.
I did want to ask you how the new core races will fit into the setting and won't some races abilities work differently? In Eberron I can't see gnomes acting like the Monster Manual gnomes. They aren't fae in Eberron after all.
I keep hearing otherwise. Also isn't that what was said about FR?
At this point, most of the ECG is already written, and as one of the people involved in the writing, I'm fairly confident about the nature of the content. And personally, even outside of WotC channels, I'd heard about the Spellplague and timeline advancement at least six months ago - the furor about it was one of the factors that convinced WotC NOT to advance Eberron's timeline.
I did want to ask you how the new core races will fit into the setting...
I'm limited in what I can say. I'll say a few things:
- The goal of 4E Eberron is to incorporate these new elements in such a way that it feels like they COULD have been there all along. In other words, we aren't going to say "House Orien is a house of eladrin", because if you've been playing an Orien heir and running an Orien-centric campaign, it all goes out the window. We're not invalidating, for example, Dragonmarked. It builds on what's gone before, creating a way for these races to exist without having a huge impact on the history you are familiar with - as opposed to rewriting the world you know.
- Each of these races has flavor that makes it unique to Eberron. The Zil gnomes and the Aereni elves aren't traditional gnomes and elves; Eberron's eladrin will likewise have their own unique elements that make them different from the eladrin of other settings.
- Each race has a connection to Khorvaire. If you've read James' novels, you know that there are dragonborn in Argonnessen. However, the idea of a first-level PC coming from Argonnessen robs that land of much of its mystery, and that's not going to be the default path for dragonborn PCs. Likewise, James mentioned at Gen Con that the eladrin come from Thelanis (as has been established in 3.5 Eberron material), but there will be an easier conenction to use.
and won't some races abilities work differently?
Sure. Shifters in 4E work differently than shifters in 3.5. But the core idea of the race remains the same. I'm running a 4E Eberron campaign right now with a shifter in the group, and I haven't found that he feels any less like a shifter to me.
In Eberron I can't see gnomes acting like the Monster Manual gnomes. They aren't fae in Eberron after all.
Gnomes in Eberron have never acted like core gnomes of any edition; why would they start now? The fact that they are fae by type has no impact on their culture. Their racial abilities - a racial gift for Stealth and the ability to slip away from an attacker - are perfectly well suited to the Zil, who prefer to use words as their weapons. As is, the powers of the gnome(which will be explanded upon when they finally get a full racial write-up) can be quite useful for a Trust assassin.
But the important point is that the gnomes of Eberron WON'T act like the Monster Manual gnomes. Because they aren't the Monster Manual gnomes. They may share statistics with them, just as they shared the stats of the 3.5 PHB gnome. But their culture isn't going to change just because they can now fade away instead of speak with burrowing mammals.
I disagree that that power is perfectly suited to gnomes.
Really? Because when I look back to the Dragonshards I wrote about the gnomes, I see the following relevant quotes:
- 1. "Magic runs through the blood of the gnomes - a faint gift of illusion that some attribute to the distant touch of Thelanis."
- 2. "Stealth, deception, and pure tenacity are the tools of the gnome."
- 3. "The Zil gnomes are schooled in deception from childhood, and, all too often, their good cheer and friendly demeanor is an illusion."
- 4. "Even a goodhearted gnome may rely on manipulation and deception to accomplish his goals."
- 5. "A society that thrives on deception..."
- 6. "And the magic of the bard is an extension of the innate racial gifts of the gnome -- magic that lies latent in the blood of the race."
- 7. "While the gnomes had yet to master the arts of wizardry, magic has always run through the blood of the gnomes. While many gnomes could summon a voice from the shadows, a few became full-fledged sorcerers, specializing in illusion."
Beyond all this, you have the quote of "Dorilan" at the start of the piece - "We believe the best guards are those who remain hidden."
So, looking at all of this: From the very begining we've suggested that the gnome race has connections to Thelanis and innate mystical powers, as illustrated by points 1, 6, and 7. Their ties may not be as close or recent as those of the eladrin, but the same could be said of Eberron's elves. Gnomes have always possessed gifts of illusion and deception, and this is a part of their society. And Eberron's gnomes have always sought to avoid direct conflict - which fade away helps them to do.
Will they have ADDITIONAL powers? Quite possibly, whether these are things you can obtain through racial feats or whether, like the warforged, their final form will be different from the MM form. I, for one, am a strong proponent of the gnomes having prestidigitation as something they can somehow acquire as a racial ability, since I see this as tying into their culture (the cleanliness and color of their cities, the exotic flavoring of their foods). Perhaps you'll see a racial feat that lets them use prestidigitation and ghost sound (for the Thurimbar rod) as at-will or encounter abilities; either of these would actually be a big improvement over the 1/day use they get in 3.5. But racial feats and the like is information you'd see in the Player's Guide, and that's not something set in stone yet.
In any case, I take the gnomes of Eberron very seriously. And to the best of my knowledge, I've written pretty much everything canon out there about them. Deception, illusion, and the touch of fey magic has always been there among the gnomes. The fact that they can more easily slip away from combat in 4E is a change, but again, in a culture steeped in deception, not one I see as forcing any significant change on Eberron.
It still sounds like it's going to make them far better at sneaking around than someone with the Mark of Shadow and that just isn't right.
Say what now?
First, you haven't seen the Mark of Shadow. What makes you so sure the gnome racial is going to make them better at sneaking than someone possessing an ability you haven't seen? You're not giving us very much credit for coming up with solid mechanics for the dragonmarks.
Second, who are you comparing here? Absolutely anyone who just happens to possess the Mark of Shadow to absolutely any gnome? Or a spy of House Phiarlan - who in 3.5 terms is likely to possess multiple levels of rogue or expert - to a random gnome-on-the-street? In my opinion, the TYPICAL Phiarlan agent will be sneakier than the typical gnome - not simply because of the mark, but because the typical Phiarlan agent will have multiple levels of training to draw upon, while the gnome will be first level. With that said, what the Dragonshard (article) clearly calls out is the fact that the (3.5) Zil gnomes ARE more cunning and deceptive than members of most other cultures - and that people who would likely be commoners in other nations often have a single level of expert or bard in Zilargo, getting them training in Bluff, Sense Motive, Hide, or the like. Deception is part of their culture, and as I said, even a connection to Thenalis is part of their 3.5 history. They may not match the ELITE of House Phiarlan - but this racial ability won't let them do that in 4E, either.
With that said...
Third, in my opinion, the Trust is (and always has been) one of the deadliest and most efficient espionage agencies in Khorvaire, and I have always considered it to be a match for Phiarlan on its home ground and a close rival on foreign soil. Madra Sil Sarin in Sharn is supposed to be one of the deadliest assassins in Khorvaire, period. The dragonmarks give you an edge - but they should not be the absolute. Again, in everything I've written, I've always emphasized that deception is a key tool of the Zil, that they don't fight fair, that you won't see them coming - and I feel that the base 4E mechanics work fine with that.
In any case, we are straying FAR from the original point of the thread. If you'd like to start a new thread as to whether the 4E gnome mechanics are a good match for the Zil, we can continue the argument there. But the question here is whether we will be making significant changes to the setting, and the answer is no.
Second, who are you comparing here? Absolutely anyone who just happens to possess the Mark of Shadow to absolutely any gnome? Or a spy of House Phiarlan - who in 3.5 terms is likely to possess multiple levels of rogue or expert - to a random gnome-on-the-street? In my opinion, the TYPICAL Phiarlan agent will be sneakier than the typical gnome - not simply because of the mark, but because the typical Phiarlan agent will have multiple levels of training to draw upon, while the gnome will be first level. With that said, what the Dragonshard (article) clearly calls out is the fact that the (3.5) Zil gnomes ARE more cunning and deceptive than members of most other cultures - and that people who would likely be commoners in other nations often have a single level of expert or bard in Zilargo, getting them training in Bluff, Sense Motive, Hide, or the like. Deception is part of their culture, and as I said, even a connection to Thenalis is part of their 3.5 history. They may not match the ELITE of House Phiarlan - but this racial ability won't let them do that in 4E, either.
I'm talking about a House Phiarlan agent with Dragonmark isn't going to be as good as Zilargo agent. It sounds like House P really isn't that special at supposedly being such great spies and such.
With that said...
Third, in my opinion, the Trust is (and always has been) one of the deadliest and most efficient espionage agencies in Khorvaire, and I have always considered it to be a match for Phiarlan on its home ground and a close rival on foreign soil. Madra Sil Sarin in Sharn is supposed to be one of the deadliest assassins in Khorvaire, period. The dragonmarks give you an edge - but they should not be the absolute. Again, in everything I've written, I've always emphasized that deception is a key tool of the Zil, that they don't fight fair, that you won't see them coming - and I feel that the base 4E mechanics work fine with that.
It's not like House P is a bunch of idiots either and in fact I'd say they are still better than Zilargo because at least not everyone is aware of what they are and do and it seems everyone knows Zilargo are deceptive little you know whats...
Sounds like a change to me.
Oh, for goodness sake. Have you read the Zilargo Dragonshards, AkumaDaimyo? Are you familiar with Madra Sil Sarin? Should I quote Races of Eberron ("When diplomacy fails, they fight their wars with blackmail, espionage, and careful assassination.... The gnome's natural gift for illusion is a manifestation of their racial bent towards deception; a gnome will rarely engage in direct conflict when he can strike from the shadows...")? None of this is a change.
Why would you really need them then if Zilargo is SOOO much better? Why even have House P at all then? Just take them out.
Honestly, AD, I'm begining to find your attitude insulting. I'm going to assume that you mean this as a serious question, but if you don't change your tone you can forget about seeing any future responses from me on this thread.
First, I didn't say that the gnomes were better at espionage; you did. I said that the typical Phiarlan agent would be superior to the typical gnome, possessing multiple levels of training that outweigh the gnomes' cultural inclination towards deception. None of this changes the fact that the gnomes HAVE a cultural bias that teaches them to be deceptive. Looking to 4E, the gnomes have a racial bonus to Stealth and reactive stealth as a racial. And elves have a racial bonus to Perception, which is also a useful tool for a spy. Among other things, the elf's +2 Perception negates the gnome's +2 Stealth - allowing the Phiarlan elf to spot the Zil gnome.
What I said is that the Trust is a match - not better, a match - for Phiarlan on its home territory, a land where it enjoys the full power of law and has an unparalleled network of eyes and ears. This isn't because the gnomes are so much more badass than the elves - it's because they have willingly handed control of the nation to a secret police organization, something I'd expect most of us to find to be a terrifying concept. Zilargo is a paranoid's wet dream; anyone you meet COULD be out to get you. Outside of Zilargo they're good, as they spend their lives devoted to deception. In Zilargo? No one messes with the Trust. And that should be terrifying, not awesome. They are more effective than the Dark Lanterns of Breland or the Royal Eyes of Aundair because the people of Zilargo have surrendered a level of freedom that the Brelish would find unthinkable.
Finally... "Why even have House P at all"? Are you seriously asking me that question? Do you really believe that the fact that some other force could match House Phiarlan makes them irrelevant in the setting? The Lords of Dust and Dreaming Dark run rings around Phiarlan and Thuranni. That doesn't mean that the Shadow Houses are suddenly irrelevant. The most critical feature of the Shadow Houses is that they are mercenaries: they are, without question, the best spies you can hire in Khorvaire. The Trust may be a match for them in Zilargo - but you can't pay the Trust to spy for YOU. You can't even find a Trust agent to ask about the job. Phiarlan and Thuranni can easily change sides - working for Breland one day, and for the Order of the Emerald Claw or the Aurum the next. While the Trust works for Zilargo, plain and simple. They serve a very specific role within the game. The Shadow Houses serve another. The fact that Zilargo is one of the more difficult places for spies to operate is part of the flavor of that nation, and an opportunity for adventure (say, having a Phiarlan PC being sent to do a job in Zilargo that it's been judged a large team could not accomplish) - not a reason to eliminate the house.
So coming all the way back to the original question: will 4E change Eberron? No. In 3.5 Eberron, the typical Phiarlan agent is a better spy than the typical Zil gnome, while a highly trained agent of the Trust (such as Madra Sil Sarin) can prove their equal. Having now written both a typical Phiarlan spy, Thuranni assassin, and elite Trust agent for 4E, I can say that the trained agents of the houses of Shadow are far superior to a 1st level gnome, regardless of reactive stealth and fade away - and that the elite Trust agent is also superior to that 1st level gnome. None of this affects the fact that Zilargo is a culture rooted in deception - and that the 1st level gnome is sneakier than a 1st level Brelish commoner, which has also always been the case.
I'm talking about a House Phiarlan agent with Dragonmark isn't going to be as good as Zilargo agent. It sounds like House P really isn't that special at supposedly being such great spies and such.
Please demonstrate the logic behind this conclusion. You're saying "I've seen this gnome racial, so clearly the guy with the gnome racial is going to be better than this other guy who has an ability I've never even seen." And which of the gnome abilities is so frightening here? The +2 racial Stealth modifier helps, but let's face it, under 3.5 gnomes actually did even BETTER in this regard, because as small creatures they got +4 to Hide. Fade Away helps you escape from combat - good for a cowardly gnome, but the Thuranni assassin would prefer not to be seen in the first place. Reactive Stealth is the biggest help in this regard, but it still relies on the gnome's actual Stealth skill. So if it's a question of "Will the Mark of Shadow provide an ability that will match reactive stealth?", I think I can safely say "Yes".
Beyond this, it's not my intention to say that the Shadow Houses aren't special - if you check my Dragonshards and Dragonmarked, I think you'll see that I'm fond of MANY things in Eberron and not just gnomes. On a global scale, House Phiarlan and House Thuranni are a match for any mortal force (the Dreaming Dark, Chamber, and Lords of Dust all have unfair advantages). Every organization - whether it's the King's Citadel or the Trust - has an advantage on its home ground. The Trust has an even greater advantage because of the amount of power that has been placed in their hands and the gnomes' natural talents of illusion and deception - again, which are clearly called out in the Dragonshards and Races of Eberron, and hardly a change. But the fact that they can defend themselves from Thuranni spies on their home ground, in a land geared towards deception and where they have nearly absolute power, doesn't make the elves morons; instead it says something about the cultural priorities of the gnomes.
At the end of the day, level is going to determine everything. If you have a first level gnome and a first level elf with the mark of shadow - well, what classes have they taken? What feat did the gnome take instead of the Mark of Shadow? I can't tell you what the Mark of Shadow does, so I can't compare them point to point - but it will give the elf an edge. And when you compare the 4th-level elf to the 1st-level gnome, then it's not even a contest.
P.S. Did I mention that I can't wait for the two Eberron books to be released? Way too much time between now and then. Way too much. :P
I have to say, AD, it seems like you have a bit of an elf fetish. Where do you stand on changelings and the Cabinet of Faces? As far as I can tell, they're more badass than Phiarlan - virtually no one knows they exist. Should 4E take away the changelings' shapechange ability in order to make Phiarlan cooler? ;)
Wrong. I just wonder why you need all these other espionage houses, agencies and the like when you have Zilargo.
Meanwhile, when I say that the Trust is a match for Phiarlan on its home turf, it's not because the individual agents of the Trust are, one-to-one, a match for the individual agents of Phiarlan. It's because of the resources the Trust has available... again, in Zilargo What's been said before is that absolutely anyone in Zilargo could be an agent of the Trust - sheer numbers alone are their strength. The slightest slip, and someone could be there to see it. Establishing safehouses in Zilargo is difficult, because any merchant, food vendor, or what have you could have ties to the Trust - and any suspicious requisition of resources, unusual levels of magic, etc could be noticed. It's a paranoid society - and as such, hard to get a foot in the door. And again, it's things like this that should make Zilargo a very disturbing place for adventurers - the fact that the innkeeper could be a spy for the Trust, and if he determines you're an enemy agent, he could poison your stew.
When it comes to gathering a particular piece of information in Aundair or Breland, the Shadow Houses will have a far easier time than the Trust. That's something that will be echoed both by the mechanics (as I say, I wrote the stats for the typical 4E Phiarlan spy, and reactive stealth has nothing on what they can do) and the resources of the house. But when it comes to doing anything in Zilargo itself, that's their place of power, and their strength comes not simply from the abilities of their agents, but from their vast resources and ability to act without restraint.
Likewise, the Dark Lanterns will have an edge in Sharn, and the Royal Eyes in Aundair. The strength of the Shadow Houses is, among other things, versatility - and the fact that you can hire them, while the other agencies serve national ends.
You are just being rude to the guy, and all that will accomplish is pushing him away from posting on the boards. He has no obligation to post here as much as he does, and if people are rude/unpleasant to speak to, he has no reason to post here as much as he does. So yes, in the interest of not wanting Keith to stop posting here, perhaps because I really love Eberron, I am apologizing for your behavior... that has nothing to do with brown nosing.
Wrong. I just wonder why you need all these other espionage houses, agencies and the like when you have Zilargo.
Because every one of them serves a different purpose, and I'm personally amazed that you can't seem to see that. The adventure I run using the Trust is going to be completely different from one using Thuranni. You're talking as if the only thing that matters is "Who's number one" - whereas there's dozens of other factors at work.
- What is their motivation?
- Who do they work for? Can you hire them, or do they only serve a specific agenda?
- What resources are at their disposal?
- Is their power limited to certain geographical areas?
- Do they have specialized tools?
- Do they specialize in certain types of operations?
- How large is the organization?
- What is the level range of the typical agent?
House Phiarlan is a large organization with specialized tools (including its dragonmark) spread across a wide geopgraphical area. It is not tied to a particular political agenda and is willing to sell its services. It possesses a core group of highly skilled agents along with a much larger group of agents who are not espionage specialists.
The Cabinet of Faces is an extremely skilled group, but it's far smaller than House Phiarlan and lacks its resources. They don't have strong ties in any particular area, but get by on the sheer power of their shapechanging and telepathic skills. You might be able to hire them, but it's on a whim; they don't have a standard set up for this.
The Trust is incredibly powerful in Zilargo, due to its massive resources and numbers of agents. Beyond Zilargo, they are effective, but there are others who are better. They cannot be hired, and generally speaking, cannot even be found. It's the bogeyman - the organization that will potentially assassinate adventurers who do something wrong in Zilargo. Outside Zilargo, you'll likely never encounter it, unless you cause trouble at a Zil embassy (as called out in Sharn).
The Dark Lanterns are agents of Breland. The kingdom has an elite group of highly skilled agents with access to the resources of the crown, but they lack the numbers or international resources of Phiarlan. You can find the HQ of the Dark Lanterns, but you can't hire them. They've certainly got an edge in Sharn - but they lack the contacts Phiarlan has in Fairhaven, Passage, or Flamekeep.
And so on, and so on. The attitude of "If the elves aren't the best, why have them?"... I don't really know how to respond to it. The Shadow Houses serve a clear purpose. Zilargo's high level of inpenetrability to espionage ALSO serves a purpose; it means that if you want to spy on Zilargo, you're going to want to send someone very special - like the PCs.
Anyhow, I'm repeating myself, and we've now spent most of a page talking about something that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. So unless something substantially new comes up, I'm going to let the matter rest here. Akuma, if it still doesn't make sense to you, I'm sorry to hear that. But you asked before if we were going to change the setting, and as I've said, we are not. The change of the gnome racial should not change the setting - especially because the Mark of Shadow will also be changing, and is designed to allow the Shadow Houses to fill the same role we've always intended that they fill.
I never once said "If elves aren't the best why have them." Not once.
No, you said "If Zilargo is the best, why have the elves" - in spite of the fact that HC himself never said Zilargo was the best, simply that it was the equal of the elves on its home ground... something intended to point out how much power the Trust has in Zilargo, not how ineffective the elves are.
It just seems to me that this whole idea of how Houses are supposed to have a sort of monopoly in an area doesn't hold true in the espionage facet and that is sort of confusing given how the other marks work.
To use a real life metaphor, why have Blackwater when the US Army exists? Why have private detectives when you have a police force? Because you can hire one of them. You can get deniability. You can supplement your own forces. Let's look to Breland. They've got the Dark Lanterns, who are supposed to be pretty good at what they do. However, they want to pull off a particular vitally important operation in Aundair. They are currently allied with Aundair, and have no good contacts in Aundair. If they're caught, and it's likely they would be, it could jeopardize the alliance between the nations. On the other hand, Phiarlan already has a strong foundation in Aundair, and if THEY are caught, no one knows who hired them. Deniability.
Beyond this, remember that Phiarlan has been around for thousands of years. Prior to the Last War, they wouldn't BE hired to spy on enemy nations; they'd be hired by Count Bob to spy on Duchess Frank. Count Bob couldn't get the Dark Lanterns to work for him, let alone the Trust. They are a mercenary intelligence agency, and they hold a near monopoly on mercenary intelligence gathering. But the nations still want their personal agencies. As it turns out, Zilargo's is quite effective, and that's something that is pretty clearly spelled out in the dragonshards; it's a scary secret police state with assassins waiting to strike from the shadows if you step out of line.
It just seemed to me that there is a lot of options for epsionage but not as many for say healing, hospitality or other services and I've been wondering why that is.
There's not as many as you think. If you're in Breland, there's two: the King's Dark Lanterns and the Shadow Houses. If you're in Aundair, there's two: the Royal Eyes and the Shadow Houses. If you're in Zilargo, there's two: the Trust and the Shadow Houses. And, of course, all of those first options are only available to you if you are a RULER of the nation in question. If you're an Aundairian noble, you can't get the Royal Eyes to run an errand for you; the Shadow Houses are the only option you have available to you.
The Dark Lanterns, Royal Eyes, and especially the Trust are all integral parts of the governments they are attached to. For Phiarlan to object to the Trust would be like Blackwater telling the US that it couldn't have an army. And this is precisely what the Korth Edicts were put in place to avoid - to ensure that the houses COULDN'T dictate to the rulers of nations. Now, of course, their power is fading, but that was the intent.
If your point is "If the Trust is more effective than the elves, why would anyone hire the elves", I understand your confusion - but the answer is, simply, because even if the Trust was better, its services are not for hire. And that's actually why it is as strong as it is; because it's not a business, but rather has the full resources of a nation to draw upon.
But Hellcow does have a point; if you want to continue the discussion, it would make sense (and be kinder to other people who might be interested) to start a thread with a relevant title.
In that case let's start the PC's in the Festering Holt
Anywho jokes aside, 60 pages to play with really isn't that much compared to the wealth of material that exists for Eberron in 3.5e. Which means that following the current maxim of Wizards, the uptake of Eberron will reflect the amount of material released both physically and digitally to supplement the ECS and Players Guide.
In other words, make your voices known, buy the stuff and we'll get more of it. Simple Keynsian economics. If it is successful, they'll give it more support.
So asking them to produce a series of webisodes detailing a story set in Eberron using 4e rules to introduce and highlight that its still Eberron and not some attempt to force feed into a slot ala Faerun wouldn't count?
I mean wouldn't you like to see something like those teifling & gnome, beholder intro turned into something truly interesting like a series of short 2-5 minute webisode having an actual adventure played out using Eberron leading into the introduction of Eberron 4e?
You know classic Eberron, fights on top of trains, hovering fortresses, the mournlands and so on?
What do you want them to do?
Now back to the Thread. Are we going to see more info on some of the Pincipalities in Lhazaar Principalities, The group, the Silver Torch, Are we going to see a history of the ir'Wynarn line or some info ob Valenar.
I would also like to say that the two book is good but i would like it in one book becaues of the money (we all know it is good to save it ) but i like my info in one spot and i think it is good haveing the players know the plots becaues it makes a DM work harder to get them in it not like i i want you to go see who the real leader of the Blood of Vol is you can have how can the DM them it becaues how i see it is that the PCs are the only ones that know and so you need to get thing done that with out tell people becaues they could kill you to keep the you form tell any one or they will think you are out of you mind.
House P has this becaues none of the group listed can be bought. and the trust is only AS GOOD AS House P when it on it own land.
That's the gist of it. Now, of course, House Phiarlan has lost its monopoly because of the split with House Thuranni. However, each of the houses are stronger in different parts of Khorvaire (Thuranni stronger in Karrnath, Lhazaar, and the wild lands, Phiarlan stronger in Aundair, Breland, and Thrane); and beyond that, Phiarlan is generally slightly better on information while Thuranni has the edge with assassination. But if you're conducting operations in Karrnath, you likely want Thuranni; in Breland you'll go to Phiarlan.
Now back to the Thread. Are we going to see more info on some of the Pincipalities in Lhazaar Principalities, The group, the Silver Torch, Are we going to see a history of the ir'Wynarn line or some info ob Valenar.
I can't speak to things on this level of detail at this point in time. While primary work on the books is done, they still have to go through editing and development. Some of the material that's there now is going to go away, and other material is going to be added. So feel free to say what you'd LIKE to see, but I can't confirm content on this level of detail yet.
I would also like to say that the two book is good but i would like it in one book
It's going to be two books. It's already in WotC's catalog as two books, it's been written as two books, and so on; it's not something they're going to change at this point.
Finally, let's get back on track everyone!!! So we've got two books effectively coming, ECS for all your DM crunchy goodness and Players Handbook for all the PC's looking for how to flesh out their noir fetish :P . What would do we think/would like to see in either book now that the distiction has been made?
And finally thanks for giving me shivers in regards to the Lords of the Dust/Dreaming Dark. I guess when you've got countless millenia to hone your skills, you get very, very good.
True. But to clarify, skill isn't the only factor; they get to break the rules. In the case of the Lords of Dust, the thing to remember is that the Lords of Dust have had a strong presence in Khorvaire since before humanity (or even the elves) ever set foot on the land. Along with the dragons, they've been watching the Prophecy, planting their pawns in places where they can affect critical moments. So how do the Lords of Dust outmanuever House Phiarlan? By having a family in House Phiarlan who have been serving the Lords of Dust since before the family WAS a house. By arranging for the house to be split before it could become a threat, or because that split served their purposes. Which is not, of course, to say that the Lords of Dust WERE responsible for the split; but they certainly could have been. My point is that it's not simply about the skills of individual Lords of Dust, but also about the resources they've amassed and schemes they've laid over the course of a hundred thousand years.
With the Dreaming Dark, they've had far less time on Eberron - but they have the gifts of possession, mind seeding, and dream manipulation. They know people's dreams and can turn them against them. And with mind seed, they can get moles in almost any organization, whether it's the Trust, Dark Lanterns, or the Shadow Houses.
Each organization has its limitations. The limits of mind seed are discussed in Secrets of Sarlona. The Lords of Dust are discussed in more detail in Dragon #337; the key issue here is that despite their resources and ability to outmanuever and manipulate mortal organizations, there's little motivation for them to interefere on a regular basis. When they choose to act, their resources are impressive (which is what makes them a threat that can easily continue to the epics) - but unless you're dealing with a turning point in the Prophecy, a chance to humiliate the Chamber, or a step towards releasing an Overlord (something that may itself take decades or centuries) they'll keep their cards hidden; after all, once you've exposed that mole that's been hidden for a thousand years, it's hard to recover it.
(Of course, the Chamber may end up setting the PCs in opposition to a LoD-controlled branch of an agency - so what appears to be a feud between Thuranni and Phiarlan could ultimately be revealed to be a feud between dragons and demons!)
Anyhow, we now return you to your previously scheduled thread topic.
*If the cover illustration of the woman with twigs in her hair and a pair of conjured wildcats, is any indication at least...
As the druid class will be released by the time the ECS comes out will we be seeing specific mechanics for the different druidic sects? No details needed just interested if the druids will be there from the beginning.
I can't speak to mechanics at this point in time. Until the book is out of development there's really no saying. However, the Druidic sects will have the same level of importance in the world that they do in 3.5 Eberron, and thus will be discussed in both the ECG and EPG.
So asking them to produce a series of webisodes detailing a story set in Eberron using 4e rules to introduce and highlight that its still Eberron and not some attempt to force feed into a slot ala Faerun wouldn't count?
I mean wouldn't you like to see something like those teifling & gnome, beholder intro turned into something truly interesting like a series of short 2-5 minute webisode having an actual adventure played out using Eberron leading into the introduction of Eberron 4e?
You know classic Eberron, fights on top of trains, hovering fortresses, the mournlands and so on?
What do you want them to do?
I'm not actually sure what you're asking Hopeless, if you're question is directed at me, is questioning my post or actually what it represents? I didn't even mention the flash shorts that wizards.com have produced (Hirsute Men ftw, I loved that skit). But as an aside, I rather liked the skits and would like to see more of them produced. Whether they continue with the rather tongue-in-cheek format or become something more serious, well that's a matter for the writers to decide.
Things I would like to see since ECS is the DM's book is more details on machiavelli-like plans that the various organisations of Eberron have (or may have). Just what are the 12 really up to? What major endeavours are the Ashbringers doing in the Eldeen Reaches to crush their arcane enemies in Aundair? Stuff for the DM to work with, inspire and otherwise give you little details to flesh them out.
Things I would like to see since ECS is the DM's book is more details on machiavelli-like plans that the various organisations of Eberron have (or may have). Just what are the 12 really up to? What major endeavours are the Ashbringers doing in the Eldeen Reaches to crush their arcane enemies in Aundair? Stuff for the DM to work with, inspire and otherwise give you little details to flesh them out.
This is essentially the idea of the "Threats" - calling out specific organizations, discussing the role they can play in a campaign, and providing material ready to be used. I can't say which groups are covered (because it may yet change), but I think that it's an improvement over Chapter Nine of the 3.5 ECS - and certainly the division of the books gives us more room to explore additional organizations.
Actually, here's a brief one: Will the ECS book also cover info on the continents outside Khorvaire (Xen'drik, Riedra, Argonessen, the Everfrost--or whatever it's called), and/or the planes? Or will we see those in separate books as in 3.5?
There's no assurance that there will be separate books as in 3.5. There will be additional material provided via DDI, but the future of Eberron in print is going to depend on the sales of those core books.
As to the main question, Khorvaire remains the focus, but all of the continents will be discussed. You aren't going to get the level of detail on Sarlona that you have in Secrets of Sarlona, but you'll probably get more than you had in the 3.5 ECS. And, of course, because the world is still at 998 YK, all of the flavor text in Secrets of Sarlona, Dragons of Eberron, and the like will still be valid (and before anyone asks, I don't know when DDI is going to put out the promised supplimental 4E material for Dragons of Eberron or City of Stormreach, though I've heard that wheels are turning).
Sounds like a change to me. I never read anything about these gnomes supposedly being just as good as House P.
Then you haven't read the books or any of the Dragonshards. Your campaign can be non-canon if you want, but in canon, gnomes = Phiarlan/Thuranni on their home turf, if not gnomes > Phiarlan/Thuranni. Outside their home turf, obviously P/T have the advantage. But again, your campaign may differ. But 3.5 already had this. There's no change here, just your misinformation/different campaign.
Wrong. I just wonder why you need all these other espionage houses, agencies and the like when you have Zilargo.
I laughed at this. Why do other countries need their spy groups the world has the Mossad in it?
Zil gnomes are not the best, and neither are the marked elf houses. They are damn good though. People will use the Houses because they may not want to get their nations spy groups involved. No group is the "Wovlerine" (best at what they do bub) of Eberron spy angencies though unless as a DM you want them to be.
Anyway it is not that big of a deal. Give those racials to the elves when you DM if ya want to. ;)