Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 morandir62 Jul 13, 2011 19:32:46	A living construct is built from a combination of organic and inorganic materials, much like any other construct, except that some of the organic material is either living or imbued with life during the creation process. The Warforged are made using a blend of materials.  The core of a Warforged is a frame formed from wood, stone, or metal.  Bundles of root-like fibers surround the core and serve as the muscles of the construct.  Plates of steel and wood are fused over this layer of tendrils, forming the hard outer shell of the Warforged. Assuming access to a creation forge and that it is the arcane energies of the forge that grants the Warforged it’s actual sentience, as symbolized by the unique “ghulra" when emerging from the forge. A Warforged emerges from the creation forge with only the most basic knowledge of the world, drawn from a template bound into the creation forge.  It can speak the Common tongue, and it recognizes its creators and instructors.  After the first few months [3-4], however, the Warforged's thought patterns crystallize, fixing on the path it has chosen for ¾ War!  Other thought patterns can be learned over time, much like other sentient beings.   What is the construction time for a single Warforged? What is the Gold Piece cost for a single Warforged? What is level should the creator/Artificer be? Is the Mark of Making required?
#2 Alex_ Jul 13, 2011 21:36:11	The game doesn't actually go into exquisite detail regarding those questions, so it's up to DMs to decide.  That being said, I made the following decisions...  I assume that a single warforged takes anywhere between a few days to a few weeks to be born- varying wildly depending on the materials being used (unarmored takes less time than mithirl armored), the level of sophistication (brutish melee types take less time than mage types) and the size/effeciency of any single forge.   The price is also going to vary depending not only by the raw materials, but just how much people are willing to pay.  I'm sure that when Warforged first appeared, people were desperate for new soldiers and the prices were high.  As the war continued and armies had hundreds or thousands in their ranks, prices dropped. Also, since they were made en masse for use by military forces, I doubt you'd ever order 1 or 2 at a time- like you would for a golem.  Instead, you'd sign an X million gold contract with House Cannith for Y amount of Warforged and continued support for the next Z years.   The "level" of the artificer is irrelevant. It simply requires a powerful mark of Making to keep it "powered". The Lord of Blades has a Cannith heir stashed away in the Mournlands and uses him/her to operate the forge.
#3 morandir62 Jul 13, 2011 22:51:38	I agree with you on the time-frame it was what I was looking at based on other constructs. I'm trying to figure pricing post-war and at a lower rate of production.  I was looking at 800-20,000gp Does the Mark of Making supply power the forge then?  I couldn't figure its purpose as the Warforged gained a lifeforce of its own given its limts. Could a high level artificer do it without the Mark?  The adventure Heart of the Forbidden Forge has an 8th level (elite) who was trying to figure the forge out.
#4 Alex_ Jul 14, 2011 0:19:36	Warforged aren'tm made like other constructs, so the time/pricing is going to be different.  In general, however, it's easier and faster to make a large number of Warforged compared to a large number of Golems/Hommunculi/etc.   Also, there is no "post-war" market for Warforged.   The "end" of the war occured with the Signing of the Treaty of Thronehold. Part of the treaty involved the shutting down of all creation forges and recognition of Warforged as equal to any other sapient race. The only new Warforged that are being created are being created illegally by mad scientist types or evil overlords- neither of whom are looking to sell them.    The books never go into detail about how the forges work, but they are apparently based on a sort of technology found in Xen'drik that was used by the giants to make warforged-like constructs during their war with the Quori.   Aside from House Cannith, there is no official means of creating Warforged that people know of. If you decide that the Mark of Making is required in your campaign then the high level Artificer could simply be on a fool's errand.  Or maybe he can potentially discover a workaround.
#5 morandir62 Jul 14, 2011 2:42:05	The bullets mentioned above came from WotC articles written by Skip Williams and Keith Baker, as it shows Warforged begin as constructs, but then Aaren d'Cannith used a creation forge, which he had himself modified to reduce cost, and ultimately gave them life and individuality as he discovered by the ghulra.  It also appears from the article that Aaren made this discover through his own independent research into crafting constructs.  Later House Cannith formally disinherited him and his father and son corrupted his life work for war. The “post-war” market is not to sell Warforged, but to pay for the construction fees associated with the material, some of which may be considered black market items, used to build them. While the Treaty made the crafting of Warforged illegal, there are others who are interested in the creation process including House Jorasco, Citadel of Breland, and perhaps some PCs.
#6 AvonRekaes Jul 14, 2011 10:52:50	There really is no offcial answer to the cost of a single warforged or just the wholesale cost for the components (pre-labor costs). Unlike constructs in 3rd edition, who could be created in a process similar to magic item creation, the construction of Warforged is an entirely plot-based, deus-ex-machina handled, situation. As far as cannon goes, the Creation Forges are Dragonshard Focus Items. Meaning that they require the appropriate Dragonmark to function (like how Airships require the Mark of Storm, or the Lightning Rail requires the Mark of Passage). They're constructed specifically to work only with the Mark of Making. It's not so much that the Mark "powers" the Creation Forges. A Creation Forge amplifies and harnesses the inherent magic present in the Mark. The Creation Forge is essentially a magnifying glass. It has no power inherent within it, per say, it is an object through with the magic of your mark takes on greater aspect. It's still your Mark that's doing everything. So far, the Lord of Blades (and apparently the artificer in that adventure) is trying to find a way to use the Creation Forge without a Mark of Making, but that is rather like trying to fry and ant with a magnifying glass without any light to refrac through it. Probably why he hasn't succeeded yet.
#7 morandir62 Jul 14, 2011 13:07:29	Deus-ex-machina is not working for my players hence the post.  We know there is no canon, but we are looking for ideas and suggestions.  Aaren’s main goal in using the modified forge was to reduce cost by rapidly growing the binding roots of the flexible material similar to the roots of livewood trees. The core of a warforged begins with a frame formed from wood, stone, or metal.  Bundles of root-like fibers surround the core and serve as the muscles of the construct.  Plates of steel and wood are fused over this layer of tendrils, forming the hard outer shell of the warforged.  The precise appearance and construction of the body depends on one of the five main models of the Warforged. Composite Plating Adamantine Body Darkwood Body Mithral Body Unarmored Body The creation forges channel the powers of Cannith heirs producing effects similar to major creation and fabricate.  But it appears that there were other forges that did not require the Mark of Making used by the giants of Xen'drik, which my player’s believe an artificer may be able to use. The Lord of Blades has salvaged a creation forge in the Mournland.  This forge while now functional is still damaged, which only produces Warforged at a fraction of the rate at which it used to, and it is not unusual for these Warforged to emerge with deformities; despite his access Cannith secrets.  The mage has other problems with the forge not related to the absent Mark.
#8 Alex_ Jul 14, 2011 14:03:34	Deus-ex-machina is not working for my players hence the post.  We know there is no canon, but we are looking for ideas and suggestions.  Aaren’s main goal in using the modified forge was to reduce cost by rapidly growing the binding roots of the flexible material similar to the roots of livewood trees. The core of a warforged begins with a frame formed from wood, stone, or metal.  Bundles of root-like fibers surround the core and serve as the muscles of the construct.  Plates of steel and wood are fused over this layer of tendrils, forming the hard outer shell of the warforged.  The precise appearance and construction of the body depends on one of the five main models of the Warforged. Composite Plating Adamantine Body Darkwood Body Mithral Body Unarmored Body The creation forges channel the powers of Cannith heirs producing effects similar to major creation and fabricate.  But it appears that there were other forges that did not require the Mark of Making used by the giants of Xen'drik, which my player’s believe an artificer may be able to use. The Lord of Blades has salvaged a creation forge in the Mournland.  This forge while now functional is still damaged, which only produces Warforged at a fraction of the rate at which it used to, and it is not unusual for these Warforged to emerge with deformities; despite his access Cannith secrets.  The mage has other problems with the forge not related to the absent Mark.   A deus ex machina is the ONLY way it's going to work.   The giants of Xen'drik didn't make actual Warforged as the people of Khorvaire knew them.  That didn't occur until after a brilliant Cannith heir and decades of research produced them.   After the forges were closed, people have tried to replicate them without fulfilling all the requirements.  Because they are not fulfilling in the same requirements or following the exact same processes, they are not getting the same results.   And there exists no easy clean explenation (in world or metagame) for it.     So a DM introduced deus ex machina is how you resolve it.   Not that it's a bad thing.  Eberron is full of them.  Heck, the creation forges are themselves a form of Deus Ex Machina, since they allow for the economic largescale creation of constructs (with human level intelligence/autonomy) when up until then all you had were expensive one off creations with limited cognitive skills.
#9 jhanzur Jul 15, 2011 5:07:10	Warforged aren'tm made like other constructs, so the time/pricing is going to be different.  In general, however, it's easier and faster to make a large number of Warforged compared to a large number of Golems/Hommunculi/etc.   Also, there is no "post-war" market for Warforged.   The "end" of the war occured with the Signing of the Treaty of Thronehold. Part of the treaty involved the shutting down of all creation forges and recognition of Warforged as equal to any other sapient race. The only new Warforged that are being created are being created illegally by mad scientist types or evil overlords- neither of whom are looking to sell them.    The books never go into detail about how the forges work, but they are apparently based on a sort of technology found in Xen'drik that was used by the giants to make warforged-like constructs during their war with the Quori.   Aside from House Cannith, there is no official means of creating Warforged that people know of. If you decide that the Mark of Making is required in your campaign then the high level Artificer could simply be on a fool's errand.  Or maybe he can potentially discover a workaround. Well, there is no official market for Warforged right now.... Merrix is still trying to make them, and probably succeeding. Likely he's selling them off to unscrupulous individuals.
#10 AvonRekaes Jul 15, 2011 8:12:02	Actually from what I recall in canon, Merrix d'Cannith is indeed making new warforged, but he seems to be setting them free, not selling them. I gather that Merrix is more Mad Scientist than Evil CEO, making experimental warforged and turning them loose to "gather data". But my memory's details on it are vague at best. I suppose Evil CEO is a valid interpretation.
#11 Alex_ Jul 15, 2011 9:24:56	Yes, I do believe Merrix is releasing his.   The thing is, if someone really wants a Warofprged, there are already thousands of them out there wandering around Khorvaire. Unless they have very very specific desires in a particular type of Warforged, there's no reason to buy new (and probably many reasons not to).   Besides, in Karrnath and Thrane, warforged are already pretty much reduced to the status of slaves and endentured servants.  Their status in Breland, Aundair and rest of the Khorvaire, while better, isn't great.  It'd be a fairly easy task of buying/hiring a retinue of Warforged for use as bodygaurds/minions/assasins/whatever. Chances are you'd be getting seasoned combat veterans as well.
#12 morandir62 Jul 15, 2011 11:02:11	Someone PM me a link to this [I don’t have this book] In 3rd edition's The Forge of War (Wyatt, Baur & Marmell, 2007), we hear that: "With a functioning and well-maintained creation forge, a Cannith artificer can craft a dozen warforged for a cost comparable to that of a single shield guardian," or about 10,000 gp for twelve.  The process is noted to benefit from mass production -- cheaper to make by the dozen than singly.  (Page 100) Warforged were commonly fielded in squads of 8 (plus a human sergeant and a magewright "mechanic"). "These squads were integrated into regular platoons of living soldiers, although platoons and sometimes entire companies of warforged (except for the commanders) could be found in some armies."  It's worth noting that companies in the Five Nations could range from 80 to 120 people.  (Page 101) The integrated racial mix for Warforged is 5% [RoE] unless otherwise noted, while nearly deathless they can be killed and have no way of replenishing their race.  The Treaty of Thornhold is a deathknell to them without any means to repopulate their kind they are a dying race and too far scattered. Thus in Aundair with 2 million inhabitants there is only 100,000 Warforged scattered throught a country with an area of 560,000 square miles or one per 6 square miles While Breland has 3,700,000 inhabitants there is only 185,000 Warforged scattered throught a country with an area of 1,800,000 square miles or one per 10 square miles.  Manhattan is 23 square miles, try finding two Warforged in its pre-columbian wilderness. Its capital city of Wroat, population of 80,870, has only 1,617 Warforged, meaning that you see 1 warforged for 50 other inhabitants of the city..  Re: Merrix d'Cannith “New” Warforged don’t forget that a new Warforged only knows what he’s trained for in the first few months, the rest of their learning comes at the same pass as the other races.  Who knows what other insidious plans this evil CEO has especially since the Treaty basically ruined his livelihood.
#13 AvonRekaes Jul 15, 2011 12:07:39	I wouldn't go as far as saying the Treaty "ruined" Cannith's livelihood. Pre- and durring-War Cannith was a nearly unstopable economic powerhouse. Today they're still the leading supplier of magic devices (especially weapons) to the Five Nations. For sure, the destruction of the Creation Forges set them back, but it was more like evening out their power with the rest of the Houses than it was crippling them. Remember the House is responsible for producing and maintaining many many more wonders and conveniences than just the Warforged. As for Merrix d'Cannith personally, he's risen to lead fully a third of the House, and depending on where the DM goes with it, he's possibly poised to become the new Patriarch. Not exactly begging for scraps. Also those population numbers are interesting, but don't forget that statistics for an entire nation are not automatically spread evenly throughout the country. Sure, Breland may have only one warforged per 10 square miles on average. But Sharn is a city 6 miles wide, 1 high, and has much much more than a single warforged working in the Cogs foundries.
#14 Alex_ Jul 15, 2011 12:09:06	Thus in Aundair with 2 million inhabitants there is only 100,000 Warforged scattered throught a country with an area of 560,000 square miles or one per 6 square miles While Breland has 3,700,000 inhabitants there is only 185,000 Warforged scattered throught a country with an area of 1,800,000 square miles or one per 10 square miles.  Manhattan is 23 square miles, try finding two Warforged in its pre-columbian wilderness. Its capital city of Wroat, population of 80,870, has only 1,617 Warforged, meaning that you see 1 warforged for 50 other inhabitants of the city..      It's worth noting that those Warforged are not likely just wandering around in the wilderness.  Warforged- in general- prefer to be working and were up until a few years ago the sole property of their respective governments' armies.   They're going to be fairly concentrated in urban areas and found in laborer/defense related occupations- wherever those are concentrated in the city.   Koreans make up a small section of the US's population, and Houston's population, but If I drive down the right streets, there are going to be Korean Buddhist temples, Korean resturaunts, and Korean run businesses EVERYWHERE.
#15 morandir62 Jul 15, 2011 15:34:42	Also those population numbers are interesting, but don't forget that statistics for an entire nation are not automatically spread evenly throughout the country.  Sure, Breland may have only one warforged per 10 square miles on average.  But Sharn is a city 6 miles wide, 1 high, and has much much more than a single warforged working in the Cogs foundries. True that is an average spread and I did not deduct the overall population of each city which will only make the spread smaller for and lesser towns, villages, thorpes, hamlets, and individual farms, as well as the rest the countryside   The verticle city of Sharn, covers 36 cubic miles, population of 211,850, has only 2,119 Warforged, meaning that you see 1 warforged for 50 other inhabitants of the city.  While many may work in the Cogs; the acutal number living there is 62.     It's worth noting that those Warforged are not likely just wandering around in the wilderness.  Warforged- in general- prefer to be working and were up until a few years ago the sole property of their respective governments' armies.   They're going to be fairly concentrated in urban areas and found in laborer/defense related occupations- wherever those are concentrated in the city.   Koreans make up a small section of the US's population, and Houston's population, but If I drive down the right streets, there are going to be Korean Buddhist temples, Korean resturaunts, and Korean run businesses EVERYWHERE. While the United States has 308,745,538 inhabitants there is only 14,819,785 Asians (includes Koreans) scattered throught a country with an area of 3,794,101 square miles or one per 4 square miles.  The city of Houston, population of 2,099,451, has only 125,967 Asians (includes Koreans), meaning that you see 1 warforged for 196 other inhabitants of the city. An estimated 400,000 illegal aliens also reside in the Houston area or 19% means you’re 3x more likley see to see them. [Note the Offical US Census does not break down ethniticty, only race.] Of course you’ll see more in ethnic enclaves and certain job markets, but if you step back and look there real isn’t that many.  Of course to the more prejudice “Warforged Haters” the fact that they do jobs most don’t want or just their appearance would make them seem EVERYWHERE.  But the truth is the average Warforged population on whole remains at 5% making them a rare race.