They've continuously acted as if they had secrets concerning how the newer races will function in Eberron, even saying that we have to wait for the ECG to find out what those differences are ... well, I've done nothing but scour that book and I find information on Tieflings, Goliaths, and Dragonborn extremely lacking. Frankly, you have to search to find anything at all. There is no mention of other races (Genasi, Devas ...) but that is more excusable because they really did say that these other races are rare.
On the other hand, if they are in the setting at all, they ought to be made a part of it. Do Devas need to be the new Humans in the setting? Of course not, but a cool story involving a deva in the ECG would have been great.
One last thing ... Eladrin. *sigh* I was disappointed. Keith Baker, James Wyatt, and other developers really led us on for this thing. Don't get me wrong, I like those guys, but they really exagerated on how that story "fit" with the flavor of Eberron. Most of the spires are just placeholders. A few are quite cool, but they are the exception rather than the rule here. Frankly ... some FR got into my Eberron. These feyspires don't evoke a new exciting culture in the world; they are islands of wierd happenings in the world. The ECG suggests that these feyspires knew each other (thus the Fading Dream's vendetta), yet their cultures don't really seem to ... mesh.
In short, the integration of these races is lacking. Honestly, I'll take the good with the bad for the Eladrin (like I said, I REALLY like the Fading Dreams feyspire), but, for the Tieflings, I was hoping for a lot more insight into Ohr Kaluhn in the ECG and I didn't really get much. Same with the Dragonborn and Goliaths.
Well. There it is.
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
With the Eladrin, they went too far, for you, in emphasising them. For Tieflings, Dragonborn, and Goliaths, they didn't go far enough.
Personally, I agree with you somewhat. I feel like the only Feyspires worth my time are the Fading Dream (Which, by the way, would have been a perfect justification for Quori stats since you can fight them inside the tower!), the ruin of the one in Xen'drik, the ruin of the one in the Mournland, and the one beseiged by goblins in Darguun. The rest of them are just... rather vanilla. Maybe some DDI Background articles can make them cool and Eberron-y, but by and large their roll seems to be "We're straight out of fairy tales." which incidentally does make them tradtional fantasy in a rather non-traditional fantasy setting.
Also, I would have liked more information on the Dragonborn. Nothing concrete, maybe, but how bout some tantalizing hints or rumors for their khorviarian empire that fell? If there are any in the book, they're addressed so briefly that I missed them. An interesting ruin or two, maybe an artifact, would have been nice. (The goblins have their Six Kings monuments and the Dealkyr War, the Giants have their cyclopean ruins and the Quori War and destroying a moon, but the Dragonborn just get "no one knows why it fell. kthnxbye")
The Tieflings of Orh Kaluun would have been something nice to get more information about, but I'm not personally interested in pre-reidran Sarlona. Nevertheless, I know some people are, so its a topic that I understand could have gotten more light.
As for goliaths? Well, they've always been a pretty simple people, so I didn't really expect much from them. Stick `em in some mountains, they're done.
Devas I would have liked to know more about. Their interaction with the Dragons and Shullassakar, other allies in the Demon/Dragon war.
Which, by the way, would have been a perfect justification for Quori stats since you can fight them inside the tower!
Yup, no coincidence there - one thing I liked about the Fading Dream was the chance to meet quori physically, even if it's not their domain.
There are things that didn't make it into the ECG, and I hope we will be able to get more details about them later. Looking to the Eladrin and tieflings, I'd certainly like to talk more about their different cultures and the hooks these can present for players. The tieflings of Droaam are quite different from those of the Demon Wastes. Looking to the Feyspires themselves, I'd like to go into more detail (and I'm frustrated that the EPG not only doesn't give much in the way of story hooks to work with, but also contradicts the ECG on a number of points related to them - the idea that most of the spires have been trading vs the ECG's statement that they've almost all been hidden and things of legend, the whole shadow-marked eladrin business, etc), but that's something that can be done in time.
In terms of the cultures of the Feyspires meshing, they aren't supposed to. They do know each other - just as the Aereni know the Tairndadal and both have heard of the Drow. They are different cultures, each of which supports different character ideas. Unfortunately, we didn't get enough space to go into full detail on them, at least yet.
by and large their roll seems to be "We're straight out of fairy tales." which incidentally does make them tradtional fantasy in a rather non-traditional fantasy setting.
Certainly, but I'd argue that in some ways that's exactly the point. They don't belong. They are alien - plucked from a realm of stories and forced into harsh reality. The question now is whether they'll adapt and evolve, or be torn apart. Shae Loralyndar is in the least danger in that regard, because it's in the Twilight Demesne, and has long had ties with the Greensingers; while it was never named, the Fey Court in the Eldeen Reaches has been mentioned in the past. But Shae Joridal is already under attack, and it's likely just a matter of time before the lord of Taer Syraen pushes the Karrns too far. Pylas Pyrial is the one whose culture has been the most influenced by its contact with Eberron, and I'd certainly like to explore that.
In any case, I'm sorry to let you down, LDM. The issue is that I have far more in my notes and thoughts than made it into the books. *I* remain excited about the feyspires, because I see a vast story in my head; unfortunately, it would appear too little of that story made it into the books. Likewise, I would like to see more info about the Dragonborn; I appreciate mystery, but it's a little unnecessarily mysterious, I think. Honestly, I personally really don't have much interest in goliaths (I just use their stats for the eneko of Secrets of Sarlona) or genasi; I've never associated them with Eberron and don't have a personal interest in working them in at my table, so I'm unlikely to be the one who develops a DDI article or the like for them. Dragonborn I'm fine with purely because they can be added to Q'barra without too much of an upset of what's gone before... and because I like the idea of another foe for the Dhakaani empire back in its days of glory.
In any case... sorry you're disappointed with this aspect of things, and all I can say is that it's a casualty of space and time. I hope that some of these issues will be addressed in the future.
If, however, these holes will be addressed in future articles, then I'll be okay ... eventually. It looks like you wish that more made its way into the ECG too, so I probably shouldn't have called you out. I appologise.
Well, whoever it was that decided that the Dragonborn empire "fell somehow," that was very wrong, sir, very wrong indeed.
Again, some of the feyspires were really neat ... just not all of them. I can see what you mean by these feyspires being alien to Eberron; I can even imagine a cool story based on that. On the other hand, I don't generally seperate Eberron from its planes in the sense of mood. In other words, Thelanis isn't FR in my games (I know that isn't what you meant).
In other words, when my PCs go to Thelanis I'd want to make it just as political and mysterious as it is on terrestial Eberron. I understand that it is important to make splatbooks useful in all campaign settings ... but I feel like they could have done this a bit better.
*sigh* I don't want to personally attack you, Keith. I guess it comes down to preferences (and I'm free to change things in my game), but I wanted to register my opinion on the matter. With some minor (or major in some cases) changes, I think I can make Thelanis feel Eberron-y again.
Sincerely,
Lord Dreadman
The OP seems like a very impatient sort IMO. This is from seeing many of his other posts about EB 4E. Not a blast on ya just an observation. Being a fan of RPGs is an odd thing. You need to learn patience. The designers cannot put everything out in one product. They need to make money. They need to sell the DDI. So they give us enough items to ignite out imaginations and let us build things of our own in their sandbox.
I am glad some of the spires are different than the others. Who wants the smae place spread all across the globe? The Fading Dreams spire is great IMO because they are incredibly dark and stuck on Eberron now. Plus like HK says it is a link to Dal Quor so those minis can actually be used now! ;)
Anyway this book for me was more than enough for now. Articles shall come I think that will make everyone happy. Especially if they are as good as the Graywall articles.
Some hints and contradictory rumors would have been nice.
Easy enough. Let's look at the existing data, limited as it it.
- The dragonborn show up in Q'barra during the Age of Giants, to assist the draconic guardians of Haka'torvhak.
- In the Age of Monsters, we have the rise and fall of their empire. Personally, I'm not crazy about the use of the term "empire" because it implies something more widespread than it actually was. I see them as having a strong presence in the Talenta Plains and of course Q'barra, with a small presence in adjoining territories.
- At some point, the taint of Haka'torvhak corrupts Rhashaak. He's now served by fiends and by the Poison Dusk, which only includes a small number of Dragonborn.
- Modern dragonborn don't know what happened.
So, first of all, we have the fact that in establishing a kingdom in the first place, they were turning their backs on what they were supposed to be doing - helping the dragon guard Haka'torvhak. And what do you know, the guardian fell to the darkness. Make of that what you will.
Next you have the fact that by the time they began their spread, the Dhakaani empire was already established. As such, while it's unlikely to be the source of a disaster that wipes things from memory, I have no doubt that they clashed with the goblins, and to me this would seem to be a major factor in pushing them back from whatever territories they claimed outside Q'barra. The goblins didn't just start ruling all of central Khorvaire; there was a time when you would have found orcs in Breland and Karrnath. It was a process of expansion over the course of many centuries, driving enemies into the wild territories they didn't want. So I'd expect to find signs of dragonborn/Dhakaani conflict in ruins and treasures found in the Talenta region.
Then you have the Daelkyr. It may have been the work of the Gatekeepers that pushed Xoriat away, but they weren't confined to one piece of Khorvaire. They devastated the Dhakaani Empire across the continent, and we know that they destroyed the old dwarven kingdom beneath the Ironroot Mountains. The Dragonborn "empire" had already been broken by that point - but a clash with madness could be the piece that wiped it from memory. This could mean that there are relics of a dragonborn-daelkyr clash hidden in or beneath Q'barra... not to mention daelkyr-warped dragonborn.
And then there is the demon overlord bound beneath Haka'torvhak, whose influence has corrupted Rhashaak and driven the dragonborn from Haka'torvhak, the city they were originally supposed to help guard. Did some dragonborn fall to the corrupting influence of the overlord as well? Was there a horrible civil war as the dragonborn sought to take back Haka'torvhak from their corrupted kin... a war which they obviously lost, as the city remains in fiendish hands? Are the dragonborn allied with the Poison Dusk today actually tainted by demon forces, something more and less than typical dragonborn? This could be an interesting path for a dragonborn sorcerer or warlock - drawing power from the force below Haka'torvhak, believing that he can find a way not to be corrupted by it and to eventually cleanse the tainted city.
So to me, the Dhakaani conflict is an obvious explanation for the loss of territory beyond Q'barra. As for the final fall that wiped thing sfrom memory, I think that either daelkyr or a vicious civil war to expunge the taint of the overlord could play into that - and I think both offer very interesting possibilities for adventures or PC hooks in modern Q'barra, as the past is revealed. In any case, one important thing to know is that they came as defenders of Haka'torvhak; they spread beyond it; and somehow in the process lost the city they came to defend and lost their own history.
Modern dragonborn don't know what happened.
Tangent: Even back in 3.5, the "modern ignorance" angle appealed to me when incorporating the tieflings (my favorite outliers in Eberron). Each individual or group claimed to be descended from diabolists of Ohr Kaluun, or the incarnations of demon princes, or simply born during the wrong planar conjunction... but claims were all they had. They had no proof that one origin story was more accurate than another beyond their horns, tails, and what older folks told them. Rather than one objective truth, there are countless stories that conveniently fit the available facts.
That's something I've always liked about Eberron-- the sense that there's a great deal of history, but nobody has a monopoly on it.
Honestly, my biggest beef with the ECG? That not one of the Valenar elves wields a double scimitar.
Honestly, my biggest beef with the ECG? That not one of the Valenar elves wields a double scimitar.
Yes, I'm honestly a little puzzled by that too.
Pure awesome
Wow! Thanks Keith! I wasn't even aware that the dragonborn came specifically to help defend Haka'torvak. I must've skimmed right over it. Also the time frame for when it disappeared, I didn't realize could align with the Dealkyr war.
...(and I'm frustrated that the EPG not only doesn't give much in the way of story hooks to work with, but also contradicts the ECG on a number of points related to them - the idea that most of the spires have been trading vs the ECG's statement that they've almost all been hidden and things of legend, the whole shadow-marked eladrin business, etc),...
Just one question about the shadow marked eladrins: Where exactly does the ECG contradicts the EPG? I just looked it up, but I couldn't find a contradiction. I'm only asking because I pondering to develop an adventure line around the shadow marked clan of Taer Syraen, so it would be a shame if I get the facts wrong. What exactly am I missing? If someone could enlighten me, I would be grateful. Thx in advance.
Just one question about the shadow marked eladrins: Where exactly does the ECG contradicts the EPG?
There's nothing wrong with it if you like it. I don't like it for two reasons.
Page 18 of the ECG has a sidebar about Dragonmarked PCs, which states "The character might be a member of a race unconnected to the dragonmarked houses... These characters are extremely rare - it's not recommended that you create NPCs who fall into this category unless the story of your campaign demands it... the character is probably the first such case (the dragonmarked houses have) ever seen." So this isn't a contradiction as such, because if the needs of your campaign require it, you can do whatever you want. But it implies the casual presence of something that the ECG describes as being exceptionally rare.
Page 48 of the ECS states that until the Mourning, the feyspires have been the stuff of legends, "found only by chance and rarely seen twice before they shifted back to Thelanis." The "fey lords employed powerful magic to cloak their cities from mortal eyes." Page 83 to 84 suggests that the fey of Taer Syraen have driven off those who try to approach the city. Neither of these make a strong case for a clan of shadowmarked elves having settled in the spire.
Of course, you don't HAVE to use this vision of Taer Syraen. If you WANT that clan of shadowmarked elves there, I can see lots of interesting ways to explain it and use it. I'm just saying that as a writer I'm bothered by the contradiction... one book saying "don't make out-of-race dragonmarks unless you really really have to" and the other saying "Oh, sure, there's this bunch of out-of-race marked folks over here", and one saying "There's been a casual trading relationship for ages" while the other says "until recently, we thought this was just a faerie tale."
But in this case it's a good thing, because it sounds like you want the mark in the spire. ;)
There's nothing wrong with it if you like it. I don't like it for two reasons.
Page 18 of the ECG has a sidebar about Dragonmarked PCs, which states ...
Page 48 of the ECS ... Page 83 to 84 suggests that the fey of Taer Syraen have driven off those who try to approach the city. Neither of these make a strong case for a clan of shadowmarked elves having settled in the spire.
Of course, you don't HAVE to use this vision of Taer Syraen. If you WANT that clan of shadowmarked elves there, I can see lots of interesting ways to explain it and use it. I'm just saying that as a writer I'm bothered by the contradiction... one book saying "don't make out-of-race dragonmarks unless you really really have to" and the other saying "Oh, sure, there's this bunch of out-of-race marked folks over here", and one saying "There's been a casual trading relationship for ages" while the other says "until recently, we thought this was just a faerie tale."
Yes, I got the contradiction about the "trading relations" vs. "faerie tale" issue. What I didn't get is where the ECG contradicts the EPG about the shadow marked eladrins of Taer Syraen, because the Taer Syraen entry in the House Phiarlan chapter (bottom of p. 226 ECG) states "The elves of house Phiarlan discovered this feyspire, and over the course of several centuries, a mixed clan elves and eladrin bearing the Mark of Shadow grew the prominence there."
Furthermore more it says in short, that this clan, unhindered by the Korth Edicts, serve the prince of the feyspire as spies and secret police. And that the clan leaders exploring their relationship to House Thuranni and Phiarlan, unsure how to proceed.
This seems to me to be basically the same info, as in the Eladrin entry in the EPG (EPG p.36), plus a little additional DM background info.
But in this case it's a good thing, because it sounds like you want the mark in the spire. ;)
To be frank I'm totally unbiased about this. I'm new to the setting, just picked up the EPG and the ECG and starting an Eberron campaign. BTW, awesome work. I really love the setting. Can't wait to start. :D
Thx for you answer. And btw I find it admirable, that the creator of a setting frequently communicates with the community, share his thoughts and answers questions. This is really remarkable.
What I didn't get is where the ECG contradicts the EPG about the shadow marked eladrins of Taer Syraen, because the Taer Syraen entry in the House Phiarlan chapter (bottom of p. 226 ECG) states...
Ha! My bad. I wrote the House Phiarlan section for the book, so I made the mistake of assuming I knew what was in it - but that piece was added in the editing process.
On the one hand, I'm glad it's there, because what I hate most is contradiction between books.
On the other hand, I don't like the concrete presence of out-of-race dragonmarks when it's otherwise suggested that this is a truly rare and remarkable thing. I suppose one can argue that eladrin and elves have similar backgrounds, but personally, I don't like out-of-race dragonmarks without a very interesting reason and I'll be holding to that in my personal campaign. So it bugs me.
But with that said, the ECG does indeed support the EPG, and while I may not like this particular thing I am glad to see that it's not a contradiction between books. And hey, since it WASN'T in the original entry I wrote, it means an editor caught the inconsistency and changed it to bring the two into line, which is a good thing.
The me, a campaign setting creator should be free to choose which race he use and which it doesnt. I know Keith can't decide everything but I do feel that changing Eberron to match 4.0 was rather dumb. And why did Wotc do this anyway?
I know this will seem silly to compare, but lets take a look at the old 3rd Edition Dragonlance. The setting is well known for not using certain classic races (like Halflings and Orcs). Did they change it just because the Phb included half-orc? Nope.
Lets say they one day make a 4.0 (or will it be 4.5? ;) ) Dragonlance. Are they going to retcon the whole damn history of Krynn just to add their precious little dragonborn, goliath, deva and all?
Because players will be happier knowing that they can pick a cool new race out of the PHB or PHB2 and it won't be shot down because "WotC hadn't invented them when they made the setting, so they don't exist."
Because setting enthusiasts will be happier knowing that these characters have a place and role in the setting storyline.
Because it gives DMs and players alike new hooks and new ideas to weave into their plots and stories.
Because allowing the setting to stagnate and not change as the game itself progresses is a surefire way for it to fall out of relevance.
But with that said, the ECG does indeed support the EPG, and while I may not like this particular thing I am glad to see that it's not a contradiction between books. And hey, since it WASN'T in the original entry I wrote, it means an editor caught the inconsistency and changed it to bring the two into line, which is a good thing.
Thx for clearing this up. Inconsistency can be really annoying. Seems the editor has earned his pay for the month. ;)
Lets say they one day make a 4.0 (or will it be 4.5? ;) ) Dragonlance. Are they going to retcon the whole damn history of Krynn just to add their precious little dragonborn, goliath, deva and all?
As it stands, yes. Since the "Everything is core"-doctrine, this races will be added. I don't know if they "going to retcon" the whole history, but one way or another these thing will probably show up in DL 4.0 (if there is one).
Lets say they one day make a 4.0 (or will it be 4.5? ;) ) Dragonlance. Are they going to retcon the whole damn history of Krynn just to add their precious little dragonborn, goliath, deva and all?
Probably, yes.
Lets say they one day make a 4.0 (or will it be 4.5? ;) ) Dragonlance. Are they going to retcon the whole damn history of Krynn just to add their precious little dragonborn, goliath, deva and all?
Well, they made three new types of draconians to match the new "main" metallic dragons, so all signs point to yes.
House Phiarlan chapter (bottom of p. 226 ECG) states "The elves of house Phiarlan discovered this feyspire, and over the course of several centuries, a mixed clan elves and eladrin bearing the Mark of Shadow grew the prominence there."
Correction, that states;
ECG p 226 Under Taer Syraen: "The elves of house Phiarlan discovered this feyspire, and over the course of several centuries, a mixed clan of eladrin and elves bearing the Mark of Shadow grew the prominence there."
Because of the placement of the 'and' and the nature of English, this sentence is vague. It could be argued that;
- It means that the Feyspire contains Eladrin (no mark) and Elves (mark of Shadow) and or
- both Eladrin and Elves with the Mark of Shadow live there.
I think that perhaps that was left vague on purpose.
It means that the Feyspire contains Eladrin (no mark) and Elves (mark of Shadow)
Yes, and that is the interpretation I will be using. ;)
Correction, that states;
Because of the placement of the 'and' and the nature of English, this sentence is vague. It could be argued that;
- It means that the Feyspire contains Eladrin (no mark) and Elves (mark of Shadow) and or
- both Eladrin and Elves with the Mark of Shadow live there.
I think that perhaps that was left vague on purpose.
Oh, of course you are right. I mixed them up. Sorry, it was after 2 in the morning when I wrote this. No intend.
Anyway, it doesn't change the answer to my question, that was: Are there any contradiction concerning this issue between the EPG and the ECG? And this doesn't contradict the EPG explicitly. Or does it?
DISCLAIMER: I didn't wanted to argue for or against shadow marked eladrins. If my posts gave this impression I apologize. There seem to be two stances on that issue, and I'm still undecided which one I will adopt. I just read about that there are contradictions between the EPG and the ECG and wanted to find out what they are, because I was afraid, that I could have miss an important information.
Anyway, it doesn't change the answer to my question, that was: Are there any contradiction concerning this issue between the EPG and the ECG? And this doesn't contradict the EPG explicitly. Or does it?
Depending how you read it, Operations' interpretation does solve any conflict. Right now, the Phiarlan ECG entry and the Eladrin EPG entry support one another. The conflict is with the ECG's statement that out-of-race dragonmarked NPCs are something to avoid unless it's vital to the story. However, if you go with Operations' reading and say that it's a mini-house formed of marked elves and unmarked eladrin (just as Tharashk has marked humans, marked half-orcs, and unmarked orcs) then there's no contradiction of any kind.
There is of course still contradiction on the fact that the EPG says "There's been a casual trading relationship for ages" and the ECG says "They've been places of myth and legend" (with the exception of Pylas Pyrial, which is specifically supposed to have had trading relations with the Zil).
But at the end of the day, it's all about inspiration. I'm NOT trying to stop anyone from using dragonmarked Eladrin, if they want to. I just want it to be a choice - for the DM who doesn't like out of race marks to feel that he can leave them out. Taer Syraen is the one place where out-of-race marks are explicitly stated as existing... at least, depending on your reading.
Honestly, my biggest beef with the ECG? That not one of the Valenar elves wields a double scimitar.
Um, what about this one page 164 and page 167.
*Edit Oh you meant the stat blocks not the art. Right got it, my mistake.
But meh. I don't care so much. The material of the book is fantastic!
Reading both the EPG and ECG, I've decided to just keep the races from the previous edition, allow Dragonborn only in the case that they take poison as their breath weapon (and thus are simply called Lizardfolk), and all the new races (Goliaths, Teiflings, Eladrin, Devas) are simply the broad assortment of Mournland Magebred from House Vadalis. They won't be available for beginning level play, but maybe high heroic on up I'll allow it.
That is dumb and you are a bad DM for doing this. (No offense, I mean this in the nicest way possible)
There is of course still contradiction on the fact that the EPG says "There's been a casual trading relationship for ages" and the ECG says "They've been places of myth and legend" (with the exception of Pylas Pyrial, which is specifically supposed to have had trading relations with the Zil).
Is that really that much of a contradiction? (I ask, having not actually read the ECG as-of-yet.) Could they not have "been places of myth and legend" and had a "casual trading relationship for ages"?
I mean, if we're talking about the small blurb on page 35 of the EPG, I read that as "When Feyspires would appear in Eberron, the inhabitants would trade with nearby settlements," with the understanding that such appearances were extremely rare, in and of themselves.
I'd just expect that "casual relationship" of some Eladrin leaving to trade with the locals would be where the myths and legends come from.
EDIT: I can't help but think of them as the Eberron equivalent of UFO-sightings (with Phiarlan knowing "the truth" for some time now, and obviously keeping it a secret, ala "The Government").
Is that really that much of a contradiction? (I ask, having not actually read the ECG as-of-yet.)
Yes.
Read the ECG and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's not simply a question of how infrequently they appear; it's the fact that "Following a disastrous conflict in the Age of Giants, the fey lords employed powerful magic to cloak their cities from mortal eyes. The feyspires became places of legend, found only by chance and rarely seen twice before they shifted back to Thelanis." With the notable exception of Pylas Pyrial, the feyspires have never wanted contact with their mortal neighbors; on the contrary, they have avoided contact with the mortal world out of the belief that such contact could have disastrous results, as it did for Shae Tirias Tolai. Taer Syraen is noted as refusing to even speak with Karrnathi ambassadors... not exactly supporting a casual trading relationship (though Taer Syraen is certainly one of the least friendly spires).
Essentially, the feyspires have been about adventurers - whether it's the handful of eladrin adventurers leaving to explore the world and staying behind to start a family, or the human adventurer who stumbles upon the city and convinces the eladrin to allow him inside. It's about stories of exceptional individuals and the adventures they have had, as opposed to mundane "Yes, they showed up in 654 and traded crystal flowers for five hundred pounds of flour, and then went away in 656 and didn't come back again."
Again, of course, it does vary by spire. The Greensingers have had a connection to Shae Loralyndar, but that's specifically the Greensingers, not a general open relationship with the mortal world; the greensingers are all about being emissaries between the worlds. Pylas Pyrial has had that casual trading relationship, but that's called out as being the exception: "PCs interested in purchasing fey goods or negotiating with eladrin lords will find this to be the most accessible of the feyspires."
One could argue that the EPG section is simply an oversimplification, describing only Pylas Pyrial. But the core story of the feyspires is that they have been in hiding, that the loss of their defensive magics has changed everything, and that places like Shae Joridal and Taer Syraen could be destroyed by conflict with the nations they inhabit. Pylas Pyrial has had a casual trading relationship, but the others have not.
Yes.
Read the ECG and you'll see what I'm talking about.
See, this is what I get for not getting a copy yet :P . Personally, I blame Borders. This is their fault.
Of course, I respect other people's opinions, especially Hellcow's, that eladrin shouldn't be marked, and that it's merely elves living amongst them who are. But... in my land, eladrin and elves are the same race, just with different planar origins. And so, if you take Phiarlan elves and send them to the Feywild to breed for a few millenia, you'll start to get Mark of Shadow eladrin. Maybe the mark is rare, or maybe it creates Aberrant marks as often as it creates Marks of Shadow, but eladrin can sustain a Mark of Shadow in my world. I find this situation a lot more interesting, anyway, with a lot more story hooks to be created
It also creates an interesting situation where the Mark of Death could re-manifest itself in eladrin, rather than elves. Maybe Vol hasn't even considered this possibility... after all, if Mark of Shadow eladrin are secret police in a feyspire that doesn't talk much with the surrounding terrain, she might not even know Marks can appear on eladrin... and if she were to find out, imagine an Emerald Claw invasion of all the feyspires, and the PCs have to run from feyspire to feyspire to try and stop them... when a couple weeks ago they didn't even know feyspires were real, much less where they are.
EDIT: Of course, the vast, vast secretness of each feyspire implied by... whichever book implies it, hard to keep track now... puts a crimp in things. But not much, really:
If any organization were to discover highly secret information, and send in infiltrators, who would then evolve into Eladrin... the elven house of spies would surely fit the bill =P
See, this is what I get for not getting a copy yet :P . Personally, I blame Borders. This is their fault.
Blamestorming are we? ;)
Blamestorming are we? ;)
I happen to have the Mark of Blamestorm, thank you very much. :P
I happen to have the Mark of Blamestorm, thank you very much. :P
So overpowered. They'd better errata that.
Simply because I've always seen eladrin and elves as simply... two sides of the same racial coin. Eladrin who spend generations on the Material Plane eventually transition to elves, elves who spend generations in the feywild eventually transition to eladrin. The EPG even supports this: "Generations of isolation from the Feywild fundamentally changed them, though." on page 36 EPG.
Far be it from me to challenge what you do in your own game, but just speaking specifically to the EPG quote, bear in mind that the EPG - especially the races section - is intentionally imperfect knowledge, as shown by the statement that the empire of Dhakaan fell "to the usual infighting". Coincidentally, if you turn to page 36 of the ECG, you have the statement "-80,000: (The giants) enslave the eladrin of Shae Tirias Tolai, and through magical experimentation produce elves and drow from this stock." Per canon, it's not natural evolution. After all, teleporting slaves are a huge pain in the *****. If you look to the eladrin racial abilities as reflecting a natural touch to Thelanis and an ability to slip back through it, if only for a moment... then the giants stripped them of that link.
Once you've established that, you have the fact that per the old canon, half-elves could have the Mark of Storm, but elves couldn't, while half-elves couldn't have the Mark of Shadow. I PERSONALLY see the relationship between elves and eladrin as being similar to that of elves and half-elves. There's a strong common heritage - but they are not the same race.
WITH THAT SAID... While I'm not crazy about any out-of-race mark, if you allow elves and eladrin to interbreed and still produce eladrin offspring, letting elves and eladrin share the Mark of Shadow is probably the least offensive to me. While I see them as distinctly different, at the same time, if you allow them to interbreed and produce viable offspring, and thus have an eladrin with a blood tie to the house... again, *I* may not do it, but it does have a very different feel from having a village of tieflings with the Mark of Scribing.
With that said, per canon, the relationship between elves and eladrin is the same as that between drow and eladrin. So if you're going that way, the logical assumption would be that drow who develop a direct blood connection to a Phiarlan line could also develop the mark. Again, not that I WANT shadowmarked drow, and I doubt I'd do it in my game - but if eladrin and elves get to share, I'd think drow would as well.
It also creates an interesting situation where the Mark of Death could re-manifest itself in eladrin, rather than elves. Maybe Vol hasn't even considered this possibility...
If you allow eladrin to develop one traditional elf dragonmark, it stands to reason they could develop the other. However, per the books, the mark has developed in Taer Syraen because of a blood relationship with Phiarlan elves. So I'd assume you'd need a blood connection to House Vol.
With THAT said, there's where the secrecy of the spires is perfect for the story. My point is that people DIDN'T know about the spires - not even the Aereni. As such, it's perfectly possible that a single heir of the line of Vol could have found a feyspire (probably Shae Joridal) long ago and settled inside. It could even be that the name was lost over the generations, and the eladrin/elves who share this blood don't even know it. So if you want such a story, it seems perfectly reasonable to have the bloodline of Vol preserved in a feyspire unknown to both Erandis and the Deathguard.
Of course, the vast, vast secretness of each feyspire implied by... whichever book implies it, hard to keep track now... puts a crimp in things.
Not really. Again, the point of that secrecy is that they didn't invite open contact. In the case of Taer Syraen and Phiarlan, what the books say is that Phiarlan "discovered" the feyspire (and certainly, if anyone's going to, the elf spy network seems like a good candidate) and managed to get people inside. My PoV is that the feyspires weren't interested in alerting people to their presence or dealing with a nation - but if an interesting group of people show up knocking on their door (and elves are certainly a curiosity to the eladrin, if an unpleasant reminder of the past) they'd certainly be interested in hearing their story. Given the militant nature of Taer Syraen, it's even possible that the first Phiarlan elves were taken prisoner upon discovering the spire, and over time overcame that harsh welcome.
I do want to state once and for all: It's great that you respect my opinion, but really on this I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do. Honestly, I don't mind out-of-race marks if they truly serve the purpose of an excellent story. I'm OK with dragonmarked eladrin in Taer Syraen - I just want that to be MY choice and not forced upon me. The idea of having living heirs of Vol in Shae Joridal is very interesting, even if they don't possess the Mark of Death and it's simply the case that they COULD manifest it (which would be enough for the Deathguard). I probably would allow an out-of-race dragonmark in my campaign if a PC had a really amazing backstory and was willing to have a very interesting life. I just don't want it as a casual "Of course every cleric has the Mark of Healing" - because in my game, it's a reason to have your leader BE a halfling. But that's MY game, and if I show up and play a game with you as DM and you've got scribing-marked tieflings, I wouldn't say "You can't do that! Waaah!"
Even given the elves long lifespan this is an insane amount of time. In our world neanderthal died out 25,000 years ago to put that in perspective.
I don't quite understand how they are linked to the day of Mourning though.
I'm not sure if I want to play them up as being rather Xenophobic and isolationist or if they have conflicting groups (Those who think cooperating with the outside is best vs. those who appeal to being isolationist).
As it stands, they have no unified stance. Pylas Pyrial is happy to deal with outsiders. Nothing much has changed for Shae Loralyndar, which has always been the heart of the Twilight Demesne. The problem cases are Shae Joridal, which might like to be isolated, but which is now under siege by goblins - and as such may NEED outside help to survive; and Taer Syraen, which has no particular interest in relations with Karrnath, but which may not have much choice in the matter. In the past, they've been able to simply hide and ignore the outside world until the cities went home. Now they CAN'T hide, the Karrns and Darguuls aren't going away, and it looks like the cities may not BE going home. So even the isolationists need to figure out what to do. If you want to play an eladrin warlord or swordmage from Taer Syraen, you may be haughty and cold, but you could be that vital bridge your people NEED to forge a link to the outside world and stop the potential war with Karrnath that lies ahead. But the goal is for each spire to provide different hooks and plots for PCs tied to that spire... or PCs who come into contact with it.
I don't quite understand how they are linked to the day of Mourning though.
Neither do they. In the past the spires were hidden and shifted between the planes. The instant the Mourning consumed the spire in Cyre, all of the cities lost their concealing magics, and it appears they aren't shifting back any more. Most assume that it's sympathetic magic - that the cities were linked by their common bond to Thelanis, and that the damage of the Mourning reached out through that link and damaged them all. So perhaps the answer lies in the Mournland. Perhaps it can be undone. Or perhaps the feyspires are trapped on Eberron forever. Like the Mourning itself, you'll have to decide.
Edit: Also are Sulatar elemental bound weapons described in the ECG (I haven't had a good look yet, being sick isn't fun).
I happen to have the Mark of Blamestorm, thank you very much. :P
!So overpowered. They'd better errata that.
!Pulls out Blamethrower and Flames away!;)
On topic WotC did nothing wrong. They made a great setting...BETTER.
That is dumb and you are a bad DM for doing this. (No offense, I mean this in the nicest way possible)
Though I'm wary to respond to what appears to be a troll post, I'll go ahead and try to defend my stance.
While I support WotC for coming out with 4e with races like Dragonborn and Eladrin to fill in and consolidate the niche archtypes that were either not easily accessible in 3.5 or were to just missing (IE: Magic Elves and a Draconic race), I am not a fan of either race as realized in Core 4th Ed or 4Eberron. Not even the illustrating prowess of Wayne Reynolds (praise be his name) can make the race appealing to me. The same can be applied for Devas, Teiflings, and Goliaths (wasn't a fan back when they were in 3.5). Having said that, I stress that while I may not like the fluff and physical descriptions/illustrations surrounding these races, I do appreciate the mechanics they bring to the table.
I like the Dragonborn statblock as it might be used by a PC, but I don't like race. I don't particularly care for my Eberron to have Eladrin towers reaching all about Khorvaire. I don't like the concept of Devas and the idea of Reincarnations of Rakshasas and Couatl's roaming the countryside in human bodies. What I do like, is the Dragonborn's breath weapon, the Eladrin's Teleport ability, and the Deva's, Goliath's and Teiflings stats and racial abilities.
So here's how I compromise: Use the Stats, not the Race. If you are statistically a Dragonborn in MY Eberron game, you are not a Dragonborn in Eberron. You're a Poisondusk Lizardfolk with a toxic breath weapon (Poison). You are an Lyrander Heir of Syberius who can manifest the power of the storm at a rate not found in most bearer's of the Mark (Lightning Breath). You are a devout cleric of the Fury/Onatar who manages to manifest the fires of Rage/Fist of Onator wherever you travel (fire breath weapon). You could be so many of these things and more, but you are NOT a Dragonborn in MY Eberron.
And that's the same approach I'll take with Teiflings, Genasi, Eladrin, and Goliaths. Mournland Magebred to me seems like a perfect simple catchall for the vast assortment of Humaniod offshoots. And yes, I might restrict the use of Character's wishing to be Mournland Magebred to campaigns involving Paragon Level play, House Vadalis, and/or the Mournland. But I might also allow a race's stats for a character if they can come up with a good abstraction of what he/she is that I like. I'll accept the races, and most of the classes, but I reserve final call on what Characters are playing in MY game.
I hardly think that makes me a Bad DM.
Far be it from me to challenge what you do in your own game, but just speaking specifically to the EPG quote, bear in mind that the EPG - especially the races section - is intentionally imperfect knowledge, as shown by the statement that the empire of Dhakaan fell "to the usual infighting". Coincidentally, if you turn to page 36 of the ECG, you have the statement "-80,000: (The giants) enslave the eladrin of Shae Tirias Tolai, and through magical experimentation produce elves and drow from this stock." Per canon, it's not natural evolution. After all, teleporting slaves are a huge pain in the *****. If you look to the eladrin racial abilities as reflecting a natural touch to Thelanis and an ability to slip back through it, if only for a moment... then the giants stripped them of that link.
Well, I had briefly forgotten about all that, but here's how I'd explain it. I am, if nothing else, a canon-junkie and one of the many people who believe your word is God =P
Eladrin, in their natural state, are of course eladrin. If you drop an eladrin on the Material Plane, it is removed from the raw energies of the Feywild--and over centuries, Eladrin will start giving birth to Elves under those conditions. Why? I'll leave that as a mystery. Maybe it happens when the Feywild is remote. Maybe it happens over time, like a blood-carried fey-battery draining and flickering out with each successive birth.
Regardless, elves are eladrin without the internal reservoir, nor the interplanar connection, of the feywild.
The giants saw this potential, and knew they needed slaves which were not eladrin, because the eladrin were too fey-like. So, instead of waiting millenia for the eladrin to de-evolve into elves, they simply used their magic to rip the raw essence of the feywild from them.
Thus, in my campaign setting, there are two origins of elves: A) the fey magic seeped out slowly over time, or B) it was ripped out millenia ago by giants. Either way leads to the same result, but because of low eladrin reproductive rates, the former option is extremely rare compared to the latter.
As for drow... during the same wave of slave-breeding that the giants ripped the magic from the eladrin to make elves, they started experimenting with putting other magic in its place. Darker magic. The energy of Khyber, or the insanity of Xoriat (ooh, did I just make a new plot hook for myself? =P), or the darkness of Dal Quor.
Drow... drow are eladrin, with their feywild magic brutally ripped out and new, darker magic thrust in its place.
Having said all that... if elves, regardless of their origin are 'eladrin with no connection to the Feywild', than if they moved INTO the feywild and started breeding, they would eventually regain that connection in the same way Category A Elves lost it.
Or perhaps, _ONLY_ Category A Elves can regain their connection, since it wasn't forcefully ripped out. I don't know. I'm not going to think about or write that part up, because I like there to be some ambiguitiy in my stories =P
Anyway, the point is, I don't see the giant-backstory of elves as the only potential backstory, nor do I see it as mutually exclusive to the thought of elves regaining their eladrin-hood by being born on the feywild over several generations. Maybe the ones created by giants CAN'T. Maybe they're the only ones who can. I don't know. But I find the thought of multiple origins to a single race enticing =P
....again, *I* may not do it, but it does have a very different feel from having a village of tieflings with the Mark of Scribing.
Why is Tiefling/Mark of Scribing the standard of Unraced Marks? *laughing* In another thread, I posted that I was so opposed to out of race marks, that I had written racial restrictions (as well as "or DM Permission" for prerequisites on all the dragonmark feats.
And I used Tiefling with Mark of Scribing more than once as my examples =P
Believe me, we are in agreement that unless a character has a compelling backstory and really wants to be 'destined' with a dragonmark, he's not getting an Unraced one (I'm going to keep using that word until it catches on XD).
Anyway, it just amused me that you used the tiefling/scribing example =P And I agree, of all the race/mark combinations, Eladrin/Shadow is probably the least worst. I just don't see it as out-of-race, I see it as... cousins. After all, in 3.5, Eladrin and Elves were pretty much the same race: If you were a snooty mage elf or a bowman elf riding horseback, you were the same race. Perhaps it's that mentality that makes me want them to have the same mark options.. or perhaps, it's as I described above: I really can come up with more compelling stories besides "A Giant Wizard did it" for their race, which naturally leads to Mark mixture.
So here's how I compromise: Use the Stats, not the Race.
Just yesterday I played in an Eberron game. My character was a young human student in Tronish...
Let Me Tell You About My Character
When the Mourning came, he was the soul survivor of the city, and he somehow became an anchor for the tortured spirits of those who died in the disaster. They whisper to him, and he can occasionally feel their thoughts and memories. When he is in danger, they manifest around him as swirls of mist that temporarily harden and block blows... and their fury and pain gives him the strength to strike at his foes, wielding an axe he shouldnt even be able to swing. He can temporarily call a mass of these mists into being as a ghostly ally, and he can even hide himself within an aura of dead-grey mist for short periods of time. The ghostly presences within him shield him from the touch of Dolurrh (IE, necrotic damage). He is driven by the spirits' desperate desire for vengeance against whatever caused the Mourning... or failing that, finding some way to lay these spirits to rest.
He's a scrawny human with a huge axe. He speaks more languages than he ever learned, often not realizing he's changed languages; and when he is faced with a difficult task, he may speak with a different voice for a moment - drawing on the knowledge or skills of one of the thousands of spirits bound inside of him.
He's a scrawny human with a huge axe. He speaks more languages than he ever learned, often not realizing he's changed languages; and when he is faced with a difficult task, he may speak with a different voice for a moment - drawing on the knowledge or skills of one of the thousands of spirits bound inside of him.
Is it presumed then that the Mourning also damaged the corresponding region in Thelanis as well?
Don't think so. It's still another plane. And while it's similar to the mortal world, it's not a perfect mirror of it, that is just brighter an more magical. And they cities were in the mortal world, when the mourning struck Shaelas Tiraleth. So there was also no need, that it took also place in Thelanis.
But there is also the interesting question, if the feyspires function as feycrossing (may it be active or inactive). So even if the cities are stuck in they mortal world, does that mean that their inhabitants are stuck too? Or could they use the feycrossing to go easly go back in the feywild? Maybe they keep portals open all the time, so that they aren't completely severed from the feywild, while the city is in the mortal world. IMO that would make sense. The entry of Shae Joridal seems to indicate such a thing, because it mentions that some of the population left the city under siege (and I don't suppose they walked out of the main entrance). After reading the EPG I was hoping to get some more info about this in the ECG, but unfortunately I couldn't find anything specific about that in it. The last point would also raise the question if the some or even most of the population of Shaelas Tiraleth could have fled to Thelanis as the mourning struck. After all the city stood near the border of the mournland, had good magical defenses, was, after the bad experiences with the giants, probably on guard while in the mortal world, and was inhabited by a highly magical race. So this seems not totally impossible to me. But unfortunately the Shaelas Tiraleth entry was extremely vague for my taste, so I have no idea.
But, that's a lofty idea and I would need to think it through further.
As for props for the art. I love the pics of the Elemental Galleon. Now, I have an idea where best to attack the ship now.
It's also good they finally solidified the appearance of Hilt and Pommel for the Lord of Blades. The two Steel Predators make the already sinister, Shredder-tastic warforged look even more evil. Though, it also makes me think of Megatron and Ravage.
As for gripes...I'm kinda sad there wasn't much on the Quori stat wise. But, I assume we'll get more the Quori when Psionics finally come out for 4th.
I noticed before that there wasn't really a map of Argonesson other then the general shape. (Unless it appeared in Dragons of Eberron?).
It did, in fact, appear in Dragons of Eberron.
See, this is what I get for not getting a copy yet :P . Personally, I blame Borders. This is their fault.
I'm blaming Amazon. They shipped it 07/20/09 and I still don't have it yet! I'm a brainstormer too. That's kind of like House Lyrandar. But we use our minds.....
Although I did look at the ECG at a local bookstore. I had to think of what I could do since my characters were already in the feywild, in Austrazalian. So I guess my spires aren't "stuck" in Eberron. At least not yet.
I do want to say the art really gives a good overview of the setting; moreso than the last edition. Kudos to the art team!
(yeah, the halfling without a mask was annoying, as was the stat blocks of valenar not having a double scimitar, but, we already have some of the former and hopefully can expect the latter in an insider article.)
I did notice the "newer" races (all are not necessarily new; goliaths, dragonborn, tieflings, and aasimars were in 3.5) didn't really have a big part in the new setting. On one hand, that sucks if one of my players wants to play that race. They have little info and background "stuff" to go on when they create the character. Now I think I'm fairly creative and can adjust, but for new DMs/Players, this isn't very cool; especially if no one has insider to get the extra goodies. On the other hand, the setting pretty much stayed the same (which is what they set out to do, remember THE FANS wanted the setting to remain the same). The main focus is on the 3.5 races. AND we get fleshed out organizations that was much needed (Like the Aurum, Lords of Dust!). I was most excited about that. I'll have to agree with Mr Wyatt that the maps (especially the one at the back) are exceptional.
I'd really like my book to get here. Estimated delivery date is tomorrow, lets hope it's not late.
Mr Baker and Mr Wyatt, even though I haven't received mine yet, but have skimmed through it fairly well, thanks again for delivering a product of excellence.
I'm blaming Amazon. They shipped it 07/20/09 and I still don't have it yet! I'm a brainstormer too. That's kind of like House Lyrandar. But we use our minds.....
Although I did look at the ECG at a local bookstore.
[...]
I'd really like my book to get here. Estimated delivery date is tomorrow, lets hope it's not late.
Mr Baker and Mr Wyatt, even though I haven't received mine yet, but have skimmed through it fairly well, thanks again for delivering a product of excellence.
Y'know, I've just got terrible bookstore luck at the moment. Every store I've been in hasn't had it (though most have had Divine Power... which seems silly - perhaps ECG is selling better? ;) ). I need to just order it, but I'm putting that off until I'm going to be sure I'm home.
Y'know, I've just got terrible bookstore luck at the moment. Every store I've been in hasn't had it (though most have had Divine Power... which seems silly - perhaps ECG is selling better? ;) ). I need to just order it, but I'm putting that off until I'm going to be sure I'm home.
I had that same issue with the EPG. I wanted to flip through it while Amazon decided to deliver. It wasn't late like the campaign guide though. I finally got it today!
I suppose bookstores being out COULD be a good thing: They are selling out; which means more Eberron goodness. I dunno though. I think most people would want the setting more than that book. Unless they are haters. Which I don't understand with this setting.
The one thing I do find odd though is how the books strongly suggest the Marked Houses seem to oppose the peace (or at least that is how I interpret the comments). Why would they want the war to continue? War is ultimately very bad for bussiness since dead people do not buy goods and it ruins the economy. What is more, the war was at the verge of causing a huge rift between the houses (Thurani - Phiarlan, Cannith - Cannith, Tharask - Deneith) which would have reduced their power and influence a lot. Sure, individuals within the houses might stand a lot to loose, but as a whole no houses' income relies overly much on war (even Deneith and Tharask are going to keep earning a lot of gold in the mercenary business since evil litterally lives below their feet) and most losses due to the end of war would be compensated by an increase in trade and more peaceful endeavors.
well they didnt stick that not eberron side bar in it, that was wrong...
Try page 5
Just a point of fact: Cannith was devestated by the end of the war. Their leadership was wiped out by the Mourning, which is what caused the split and their weak prescence at Thronehold which lead to their creation forges being outlawed. Prior to that Cannith was raking in mucho bucks during the war by developing and selling weapons and warforged to all nations.
Yes, but House Cannith as a whole does not only sell weapons. Hence, the house stands to gain a lot more on the long run by developing and selling non-weapon items such as agriculture, mining, transport, comfort and so on. War ruins economies. Cyre might be a bit of an extreme example, but that is one country less of customers and a huge amount of potential profits and resources lost.