Note this is nothing more than a thread for sharing thoughts on the gods, no more, no less. I have this idea because I'm curious as to who everyone else thinks the gods are, so it's only speculation.
Here's some of my guesses:
The Shadow: The Shadow in the Flame
Olladra: Vaaraak (an odd connection, but it might fit)
The Traveler: The Emerald Claw (he might still be alive) or Sora Kell
Tiamat might be related to The Mockery or The Fury, maybe The Fury more so
The roles are, according to Thir, mutable - any sufficiently advanced creature (dragons like to think that it's limited to them, but this is not necessarily true, as the Traveler was almost certainly a doppelganger) has the potential to ascend and displace the 'reigning' Sovereign. So all of those (except Tiamat, who is already revered by the dragons as part of the tier above Sovereignty) are viable possibilities, at least for a given point in time.
Tiamat is actually one of the Fiends from the time of the fiends and servant to a powerfull overlord. Tiamat is bound in the Pit of Sorrows somewhere on Argonessen. So she is not part of the Pantheon of the dragons.
One of the key points of Thir is that dragons aspire to godhood by embodying the ideals of one of their gods. You become the next Aureon by excelling at those values Aureon embodies. According to Thir, Ourelonastrix was the FIRST "Aureon" - but not the last. The myth is that Aureon taught the secrets of magic to the giants of Xen'drik. But most likely that was a mortal wyrm following the path of Aureon - not Ourelonastrix, who was likely long dead at that point.
So if you look to the first myths, you may find your answers in the first age. Ourelonastrix as Aureon. The deeds of Dularanahk are remembered in myths of Dol Arrah, along with the flaying of her treacherous brother Dulazurak. Even if they became Sovereign archetypes of Thir, some of the original myths of the Dark Six could easily be based on Overlords fought by the proto-Sovereigns. Given that Tiamat has power over the hearts of dragons, I like the idea that Tiamat may actually play the role of the Devourer in the **** of Arawai scenario. Tiamat corrupted the egg of a noble bronze dragon, producing a Khyber wyrm with the power to drive other dragons to madness - but who still had some of the nobility of her mother, being capable of inspiration as well as rage.
In any case, my point is that whatever the origin of the FIRST myths, over the course of history many mortal or immortal beings may have played the roles of the Sovereigns. Even looking to Thir, the founder of the Library of Korranberg believed that he could displace the dragons to become Aureon himself. If there's any truth to that, there's lots of possibilities. Sora Kell as the Traveler is an interesting one. She's a wanderer and a shapeshifter. She might not be the ONLY Traveler in history - but she could certainly be one of them.
My favorite god of all is The Traveler, and since it's so mysterious, it's the most fun learning of it. Obviously, Sora Kell sprang up 'cause she is, of course, a shapeshifter. On the other hand, The Emerald Claw may be The Traveler, too. He may still be alive, in disguise, unwitting that his daughter is "alive", but he might be dead, too. Hell, maybe The Traveler was the first doppelganger, and it incarnates itself, like the Cabinet of Faces says.
Then again, there might be more connections to Vaaraak and Balinor, but one is black and the other is green, so that lessens the case. However, maybe Balinor and Great Druid Oalian are one and the same.
When you described Tiamat, Mr. Baker, it definitely sounded more like The Devourer.
The more I think on it, the more these gods feel influenced on ancient myth. More specifically, the Greeks and Romans. A "same gods, different names" connotation.
Given the circumstances, it's possible the dragon (or even mortal) that taught weaponry or brought forth fire was the first Onatar, or at least a derivative.
Given Bel Shalor's immortality, it's possible he is THE Shadow, but it's speculative (and fascinating).
Boldrei has some similarities to Anaarlasha, who aided the creation Io'vakas, but they're vague at best, and the dragon type is different.
There's also the chance of aberrations being gods. Perhaps Belashyrra is The Mockery. After all, the philosophy may be metaphorical: It makes a mockery of life, which aberrations kind of do to begin with.
Oh, and what might the Becoming God become?
Well, I think that's enough for the moment. Thanks for chiming in, Mr. Baker.
Then again, there might be more connections to Vaaraak and Balinor, but one is black and the other is green, so that lessens the case.
Not really.
As others have said, the basic principle of Thir is that a mortal being can ascend to godhood, with the previous incarnation of the god rising further to a plane beyond mortal understanding. Thir places no restrictions on what color of dragon can pursue a particular Sovereign path. So the FIRST loredrake was blue, and the Church of the Wyrm Ascendant depicts Aureon as a blue dragon. But you could have a green, red, or black dragon who follow the path.
Vvaraak can't have been the dragon who originally inspired the myth of Arawai, because she's far too young. But she was certainly a dragon following the Child of Eberron path - a dragon on her way to becoming Arawai - and her deeds may have inspired myths of Arawai among the areas she passed through.
This is one of the answers to why the Sovereign faith is so widespread, even in places where there's been no cultural contact... why the post-Dhakaani goblins already had a sixteen-god faith mapping to the Sovereigns when Pyrinean missionaries showed up on Khorvaire, why the Guardians of Rusheme have their own Sovereigns, and so on. Because they may have all encountered different dragons following the same Sovereign paths. Again, "Aureon" taught magic to the giants... but that probably wasn't the dragon Ourelonastrix who discovered the Prophecy, as he was likely long dead. Instead it was another dragon following in his footsteps and expanding the myth of the Sovereign.
In other words, the Traveler could be Sora Kell, the Emerald Claw, AND an immortal doppelganger... or, at least, all three could have inspired myths of the Traveler.
Of course, were I in this world, I'd probably be more of a religious skeptic regarding the Sovereign Host. However, the one thing I see most poignantly is that, even if you don't believe these beings were gods (or that the gods don't even exist), it is their LEGACY that just might give them that godhood upon passing. The legacy gives them the strength and influence to be remembered, and THAT could be what leads to godhood, not being all-powerful or whatever because dragons, while extremely strong, can't kill a god, but maybe with a great enough legacy, they might become one. The legacy they leave behind is what makes them "gods", or at least, very powerful legends. Of course, based on this, one could call King Arthur a god.
Still, from my view, the legacy creates the gods, and thus the belief, and then the emulation of that belief that bolsters said legacy, thereby making the gods stronger.
If such is the case, then Ourelonastrix could be the first Aureon, then those that came later were those that tried (and very likely succeeded) in following Aureon's legacy. Vaaraak could exemplify the legacy of Arawai or Balinor or whoever, depending on belief. Anaarlasha, then, could be part of the legacy of Balinor or Boldrei.
When you mentioned the Dhakaani gods, it brought up the conversion of the Roman gods from the Greek gods all over again, and by extension, the Egyptian and Sumerian religions, as they do have similarities. Cultural diffusion is a powerful thing, and I'm guessing those were possible inspirations for the Sovereign Host like Catholicism was for the Silver Flame (well, the Church). If so, damn good choices, Mr. Baker.
If I ever get to play Eberron, I'll definitely try to be The Traveler's legacy. Dark Wanderer springs to mind as an Epic Destiny.
Still, from my view, the legacy creates the gods, and thus the belief, and then the emulation of that belief that bolsters said legacy, thereby making the gods stronger.
Case in point the Aerenal elves. (un)Living proof that with enough faith and emulation you can grant power to those whom you are emulating and effectively worshipping (though it's more complex than that for the Aerenal elves).
Probably also why the Dragon's don't like the elves. Competitors in the (effective) godhood club aren't good for business ;) . And with enough draconic hubris, the thought of an elf ascending as opposed to a Dragon... that's just not cricket.
Draconic hubris? What else is new? Then again, it's possible the reason the elves haven't faced the full force of the dragon is BECAUSE of religion: Some may be fanatical, while others could be totally agnostic. That could be the reason.
The Gods of Eberron? Hmmm....how about the the gods found in the Player's Handbook 3.x- but with different names
...huh!? The pantheon of Eberron has never been anything similar to the pantheon of any other D&D world, including the Greyhawk pantheon used in the PHB 3.5. What are you talking about?
The Gods of Eberron? Hmmm....how about the the gods found in the Player's Handbook 3.x- but with different names
...huh!? The pantheon of Eberron has never been anything similar to the pantheon of any other D&D world, including the Greyhawk pantheon used in the PHB 3.5. What are you talking about?
Giving it the benefit of the doubt and assuming it's a statement based on casual observation as opposed to intentional trolling... There are similarities between the Sovereigns and the Greyhawk deities, sure. Just as there's similarities between both of them and the core pantheon, the draconic pantheon, the Greek pantheon, and so on. It is the nature of a panthiestic faith to have gods dedicated to fundamental aspects of life - Fertility, war, love, craft, and so on. So on a surface level, it's easy to say "There's a god of war, a god of travel, a god of magic... just like the Greyhawk pantheon."
But on closer examination, they don't directly match up. Just look at the domains and you'll see many differences.
Fharlanghn is the Greyhawk deity of Travel. But his focus is literally on travel and the protection of travelers... Travel, Protection, Luck, Weather. In the Nine, Kol Korran is the patron of travelers, but he combines this role with that of the trader; his core domains are Travel, Charm, and Commerce. Both touch on travel, a fundamental element of any civilization; but Fharlanghn is literally lord of travelers, while KK addresses the purpose of travel. Meanwhile, for the wanderer, you have the Traveler. The Traveler carries a bit of Olidammara and a bit of Fharlagnhn, but again doesn't match to either. Like Fharlanghn, the Traveler is a wanderer; both have the Travel domain. Like Olidammara, it is a deity of cunning, and both have Chaos and Trickery. But the Traveler is ultimately a god of Change, and one of its key aspects is dangerous innovation... as shown by the Artifice domain.
Pretty much every match-up comes out this way. There's overlap between sun deities Pelor and Dol Arrah, but DA is specifically a war goddess and Pelor isn't. Boccob and Aureon are both gods of lore and magic, but Aureon is also a deity of law while Boccob is a neutral force of pure balance. And so on, and so on. Yup, there's war gods and gods of magic and chaos and travel... just as you'll find in panthiestic faiths around the world. But if you look deeper than that, you'll see that they explore these concepts in different ways.
The Gods of Eberron? Hmmm....how about the the gods found in the Player's Handbook 3.x- but with different names
Uhh, yeah, I don't really care about the gods of the other settings. Sure, they have plenty of similarities (this IS D&D after all), but my interest in the gods of Eberron stems from their enigmatic/abstract nature. The gods in other settings are well-defined to the point people know they exist. Time of Troubles much? Forgotten Realms gods are numerous and prevalent to the point they're your next-door neighbor, which deadens my fascination with the setting: There's no mystery to it. Too many gods, too many gods in human form. No thanks.
As for Greyhawk, I know little of it, but from what I read, the deities are pretty visible in their own way. They clearly exist, so yeah, doesn't interest me. Not what I'm looking for.
The mystery is what holds me in. Learning more and more and forming my own conclusions instead of having them rammed down my throat brings out the explorer and investigator in me. It's because of all the mystery in Eberron that labels it as my favorite setting. So much unknown makes for a fun game, and the gods are the biggest mystery of all, The Traveler as #1.
The Traveler is the deity that holds the most fun to me because it's so unknown, and its name is kind of enigmatic because it's a god of change, which is unpredictable and not always good. The Traveler really could be interpreted as a deity of eras: As it travels to new places, a new era dawns, so the name is definitely figurative AND literal. That could also be why they say, "beware the gifts of The Traveler" because the new era is not always a pleasant one. The Age of Giants and the Dhakaani Empire show The Traveler's a fickle being indeed. It goes from place, but could also move from era to era.
Now that I think of it, a cleric of The Traveler would make an excellent ally of the kalashtar worshipping The Path of Light.
I was merely suggesting that some of the work is done. If the original poster wants to detail abstract ideas that is up to them. I also agree that there/were are LOADS of gods in the FRCS.
...I think you've completely misinterpreted what the OP was asking.
There is something I've found very interesting about Eberron. The gods are more abstract than in any other setting, and I always have fun trying to figure exactly who or what the gods are based off of. For example, it's said the blue dragon Ouralonastrix (hope I spelled it right) is the basis of Aureon. Naturally, it's just speculation, but I wonder what everyone else thinks: Who are the gods?
Note this is nothing more than a thread for sharing thoughts on the gods, no more, no less. I have this idea because I'm curious as to who everyone else thinks the gods are, so it's only speculation.
Here's some of my guesses:
The Shadow: The Shadow in the Flame
Olladra: Vaaraak (an odd connection, but it might fit)
The Traveler: The Emerald Claw (he might still be alive) or Sora Kell
Tiamat might be related to The Mockery or The Fury, maybe The Fury more so
In which book can I find these information? This system is completely new to me.
In which book can I find these information? This system is completely new to me.
You may have misunderstood the original poster's intent. He says "Note this is nothing more than a thread for sharing thoughts on the gods, no more, no less."
One of the things that distinguishes the Sovereigns from the gods of many other D&D settings is that they do not manifest in the world, and that if they have corporeal forms on some higher plane, it's on a plane that no mortal can reach*. However, there are certainly myths of the Sovereigns. So what inspired those myths? This is what I think the OP is getting at. Who are the beings that have inspired the tales of the gods? Sora Kell is an immortal shapeshfiter who wanders the world and the planes - could she have inspired some of the myths of the Traveler?
Beyond this, however, Dragons of Eberron provides information on the draconic religion of Thir. One of the elements of this religion is the belief that dragons have the potential to ascend and become Sovereigns - though this is a temporary posting, seen by them as being more like a saint than a god. Some people - such as the founder of the Library of Korranberg - have taken the stance that if a dragon could become a Sovereign, a gnome (or human or whatever) could as well. With this in mind, the OP's question can also be seen as "Who have the Sovereigns been throughout history?" The concept of Thir has some similarities with the belief of the Valenar elves, in that the idea is that by pursuing a particular path and patterning behavior on this archetype, one draws closer to the divine power. As such, a dragon following the Loredrake path could easily be mistaken for an incarnate Aureon by ignorant people. Thus, again, the OP is saying "Who do you think people have seen as the gods?"
* I've always said this - "If the gods exist in corporeal form, it's on a plane mortals can't reach." At least some of the Sovereign vassals believe that this is the purpose of Dolurrh - that when memories fade, it's not that your soul is just withering away; the "fading" is actually a reflection of your soul leaving its mortal burdens behind as it ascends to the higher realm of the Sovereigns. But there's a variety of questions here.
If this is true, what happens with true resurrection? Bear in mind that once a soul has fully faded, it won't respond to resurrection, because it doesn't WANT to leave Dolurrh... you have to go pull it out. But if you do, memory will return - and no one's ever come back with memories of the higher plane. It's possible that a mortal brain simply can't hold these memories, and you lose them on your return. Orit's possible that what you're actually doing is creating a new version of yourself. The snake shed its skin to go to the realms above... and you've picked up the discarded skin and breathed new life in it. So... does it really have a soul? Are there now two of you? Or are you a hollow, spiritual shell?
Of course, this assumes that you believe in the Sovereigns and the higher realm. Most who don't believe in the Sovereigns dismiss this as fancy. But if you really wanted to shake things up, you could have someone claim to have found the gate to the realm of the Sovereigns. Perhaps this is the PCs themselves. Using some ancient spell, they find themselves in a glorious realm inhabited by the heroes of the past and the mighty Sovereigns themselves. But is it real? Is this finally conclusive proof of the gods... or is it a clever ruse of some sort? Could this "Realm of the Sovereigns" actually exist INSIDE one of the demon overlords of the First Age, who's trying to lure enough souls into his demiplanar stomach to give him the strength to rise?
One of my players in my current Eberron Campaign wants to become a Contemplative. He plays a Cleric of Olladra. Some weeks ago he asked me for more material about Olladra, but I couldn't really help him. I looked into Faiths of Eberron but the description are, as all the other ones, really small and not very informative. Are there anywhere more detailed information about the single Sovereigns or is it a fact of the general Eberron design that they aren't described in detail (thats at least one thing that I could get from your last post.)
But the real problem for me is the Requirement of the prestige class. It says:
Must have had direct contact with one’s patron deity or a direct servant of that deity.
As you said, the Gods doesn't really interfere in mortal life. But to simply make an encounter with another Olladra Cleric isn't enough for me. Do you have any idea how I could solve this?
Oh and thanks a lot for your answer. I really appreciate that and I'm sorry for my bad English ;)
But the real problem for me is the Requirement of the prestige class. It says: Must have had direct contact with one’s patron deity or a direct servant of that deity.
As you said, the Gods doesn't really interfere in mortal life. But to simply make an encounter with another Olladra Cleric isn't enough for me. Do you have any idea how I could solve this?
There are angels that serve the Sovereigns in Eberron. The key is that even the angels have never actually SEEN the Sovereign that they serve. But they believe with ever fiber of their being that they are an extension of the Sovereign's will. They believe that the Sovereign guides their actions. They are without doubt; this is part of what defines them as angels. It's up to you as DM to decide if they truly are guided by higher powers, or if they simply believe it.
Among other things, it's spirits like these that generally act as the voice of the god when priests use spells like commune or planar ally. The fact that these spells work isn't proof the deity exists, but it's certainly proof that there are angels convinced of their existence and acting in their name. Essentially, these could be seen as the Sovereigns' ambassadors to the "lower" planes.
So I'd consider such an angel - the angel who answers communes directed to Olladra - to be sufficient for the purposes of this prereq.
I think that Faiths of Eberron is as detailed as you will find, unless there are more Dragon articles (like the recent one on the Traveler).
If you're still looking around for info, Elodred, I'd suggest reading the Grand History of Ebberon on Scribd. It doesn't delve very deeply into Thir, but it does note some similarities between Thir and the Sovereign Host. Just go and Scribd and type Grand History of Eberron. It'll be an easy find.
In fact, since we're on the Sovereign Host, it's more than likely that Pyrine (the Sarlonan kingdom the Sovereign Host came from) had direct contact with the dragon some millenia ago. It is a little weird, though, considering most dragons don't like lesser races. Maybe a descendent of Ourelonastrix or an exemplar of Aureon passing on the knowledge?
Why mention this? Well, the name, for one. The name sounds an awful lot like Kol Korran, and what's more, Kol Korran was the god of wealth, so you could say this gnome wasn't carrying on the legacy of Aureon (if the Sovereigns exist), but was rather becoming an exemplar of KOL KORRAN, what with obtaining a wealth of knowledge. After all, Kol Korran deals more with monetary wealth, sure, but knowledge has its own value, so it may be this gnome may take Kol Korran's place instead of Aureon's.
What's more, being a noble family, it's possible Kol Korran's name may have been derived from this family? Just a guess, as it seems too much like a coincidence to dismiss.
What's more, being a noble family, it's possible Kol Korran's name may have been derived from this family? Just a guess, as it seems too much like a coincidence to dismiss.
I'd think it more likely that the name of the family was inspired by the Sovereigns. Look around US cities and you can find lots of people named Christian and Jesus. The names of the Sovereigns used in modern Khorvaire are inherited from the old Pyrinean culture of Sarlona - thus Kol Korran was being called by that name long before humans ever encountered gnomes.
The next issue is the linguistic basis of the names. You have Dol Arrah and Dol Dorn; you could look at this and just see "Dol" as a family name, but my personal thought is that "Dol" means "War". The names of the Sovereigns are what they are. Dol Arrah is "Honor in War", while Dol Dorn is "Strength in War". A question is whether this language is old Common (the language of pre-Riedran Sarlona) or Draconic. In any case, I'd think that "Korran" means "Wealth" or "Prosperity", with Kol Korran being the Lord of Prosperity - and that the gnomish family assimilated it.
What's more, being a noble family, it's possible Kol Korran's name may have been derived from this family? Just a guess, as it seems too much like a coincidence to dismiss.
I'd think it more likely that the name of the family was inspired by the Sovereigns. Look around US cities and you can find lots of people named Christian and Jesus. The names of the Sovereigns used in modern Khorvaire are inherited from the old Pyrinean culture of Sarlona - thus Kol Korran was being called by that name long before humans ever encountered gnomes.
The next issue is the linguistic basis of the names. You have Dol Arrah and Dol Dorn; you could look at this and just see "Dol" as a family name, but my personal thought is that "Dol" means "War". The names of the Sovereigns are what they are. Dol Arrah is "Honor in War", while Dol Dorn is "Strength in War". A question is whether this language is old Common (the language of pre-Riedran Sarlona) or Draconic. In any case, I'd think that "Korran" means "Wealth" or "Prosperity", with Kol Korran being the Lord of Prosperity - and that the gnomish family assimilated it.
I wonder what Dol Azur would mean, then. "Victory in War", perhaps? Win at all costs, that sort of thing? Perhaps it was a desire for victory that lead him to betray his siblings. Throwing away his honor to win would definitely tick off Dol Arrah.
And maybe Kol Turrant means "Lord of Vices" or somesuch. Something to do with greed or the like.
It is entirely possible that Sovereign gods are really that: gods. Immutable, eternal, omniscient, etc, and the Dragons are just deluding themsevels into thinking that they can attain such a status.
Maybe the Sovereigns don't exist at all and all their followers are just grasping at straws?
This is one of the things that I love about Eberron. We're told what people think. We're not told whether they're right or wrong.
Why are we assuming that the Thir sect is even right? ...Maybe the Sovereigns don't exist at all and all their followers are just grasping at straws?
I don't think anyone is assuming that the Thir sect is right. Check my posts and you'll see that I say "One of the elements of (Thir) is the belief that dragons have the potential to ascend and become Sovereigns..." adding "Of course, this assumes that you believe in the Sovereigns and the higher realm."
There may be truth to Thir. The Pyrinean faith may be closer to reality. Or there may be no truth to either. Only the DM knows for sure!
Why are we assuming that the Thir sect is even right?
It is entirely possible that Sovereign gods are really that: gods. Immutable, eternal, omniscient, etc, and the Dragons are just deluding themsevels into thinking that they can attain such a status.
Maybe the Sovereigns don't exist at all and all their followers are just grasping at straws?
This is one of the things that I love about Eberron. We're told what people think. We're not told whether they're right or wrong.
What you say is certainly possible. I've never said one religion or another was right. All I've wanted to know is opinion. The whole basis is really to discuss the possibility of the gods' existence. Maybe they're there. Maybe they're not. There is an undeniably divine power in Eberron as divine magic exists, but the source of divine magic is unknown. After all, High Cardinal Krozen has divine power, despite being a self-righteous a-hole and being a total hypocrite of the Silver Flame.
It is always possible Thir is merely there to stroke the egos of the dragons, but like all races in Eberron, not every dragon is an arrogant prick.
Now that I think of it, a cleric of The Traveler would make an excellent ally of the kalashtar worshipping The Path of Light.
Or any character who desperately wants a new era in Eberron.
Hmmm....
After all, High Cardinal Krozen has divine power, despite being a self-righteous a-hole and being a total hypocrite of the Silver Flame.
Amongst other things.
After all, High Cardinal Krozen has divine power, despite being a self-righteous a-hole and being a total hypocrite of the Silver Flame.
Krozen is a complex figure. Let's take a look at a few quotes from the 4E ECG...
Show
"He, like other senior religious officials, climbed through the church’s ranks, serving for a time as a holy warrior and priest, attaining the rank of archbishop for his zeal and unmatched piety."
"In truth, it was hard to object to Krozen’s appointment—few could match his knowledge of the sacred texts or his passion for the church."
"In the early years of his tenure, Cardinal Krozen worked tirelessly to strengthen the church in the
lives of the common people of Thrane, and to keep Thrane’s military strong."
"Although he was ruthless, his loyalty and devotion to the Silver Flame remained true . . . at least until the Mourning."
"Bit by bit, he has succumbed to the temptation of using dark magic..."
Krozen began as a deeply devout man. He's always been dedicated to strengthening Thrane. He's just always believed the prosperity of Thrane was tied to military strength, the strong influence of the church across the state, and his personal leadership. The Mourning exacerbated his character flaws - pushing him to deal with darker forces that the younger Krozen would never have dealt with. He's become more convinced that Thrane NEEDS him - as the ECS says, "If the Mourning was a magical phenomenon, he must find the trigger and control it to ensure that Thrane remains secure and to force his enemies to their knees." And in turn, he's become convinced that Thrane is, on some level, HIS nation - because he's the one who can keep it safe.
One of the challenges of the Silver Flame is that the closer you are to it, the closer you are to the Shadow in the Flame. The Keeper exists to help hold Bel Shalor at bay, but he's still there; and as the ECG says, "(Bel Shalor's) strength is his ability to trick good people into performing evil deeds."
Krozen's initial ability to tap into the power of the Flame is perfectly logical; he was deeply devout and passionate about his cause. As his path has turned darker, he's still drawing on the Flame - just the darker side of it. He's becoming a hypocrite in that the Church exists to protect people from the sort of dark forces he's starting to deal with; but I've always believed that in HIS mind, he's doing what's best for the people of Thrane. They need his strong hand. They need someone who will protect them from both the other nations and from the threat of the Mourning. And the Keeper just isn't strong enough.
He's more likely to be a villain than a hero in most campaigns. But in looking at his clerical ability, it's important to see that he was one of the most devout priests in the past; he's simply fallen from his way.
"In truth, it was hard to object to Krozen’s appointment—few could match his knowledge of the sacred texts or his passion for the church."
"In the early years of his tenure, Cardinal Krozen worked tirelessly to strengthen the church in the
lives of the common people of Thrane, and to keep Thrane’s military strong."
"Although he was ruthless, his loyalty and devotion to the Silver Flame remained true . . . at least until the Mourning."
"Bit by bit, he has succumbed to the temptation of using dark magic..."
Krozen began as a deeply devout man. He's always been dedicated to strengthening Thrane. He's just always believed the prosperity of Thrane was tied to military strength, the strong influence of the church across the state, and his personal leadership. The Mourning exacerbated his character flaws - pushing him to deal with darker forces that the younger Krozen would never have dealt with. He's become more convinced that Thrane NEEDS him - as the ECS says, "If the Mourning was a magical phenomenon, he must find the trigger and control it to ensure that Thrane remains secure and to force his enemies to their knees." And in turn, he's become convinced that Thrane is, on some level, HIS nation - because he's the one who can keep it safe.
One of the challenges of the Silver Flame is that the closer you are to it, the closer you are to the Shadow in the Flame. The Keeper exists to help hold Bel Shalor at bay, but he's still there; and as the ECG says, "(Bel Shalor's) strength is his ability to trick good people into performing evil deeds."
Krozen's initial ability to tap into the power of the Flame is perfectly logical; he was deeply devout and passionate about his cause. As his path has turned darker, he's still drawing on the Flame - just the darker side of it. He's becoming a hypocrite in that the Church exists to protect people from the sort of dark forces he's starting to deal with; but I've always believed that in HIS mind, he's doing what's best for the people of Thrane. They need his strong hand. They need someone who will protect them from both the other nations and from the threat of the Mourning. And the Keeper just isn't strong enough.
He's more likely to be a villain than a hero in most campaigns. But in looking at his clerical ability, it's important to see that he was one of the most devout priests in the past; he's simply fallen from his way.
Amongst other things.
Somehow I've never actually seen this before. Thanks for the link!
After all, High Cardinal Krozen has divine power, despite being a self-righteous a-hole and being a total hypocrite of the Silver Flame.
Krozen is a complex figure. Let's take a look at a few quotes from the 4E ECG...Show"He, like other senior religious officials, climbed through the church’s ranks, serving for a time as a holy warrior and priest, attaining the rank of archbishop for his zeal and unmatched piety."
"In truth, it was hard to object to Krozen’s appointment—few could match his knowledge of the sacred texts or his passion for the church."
"In the early years of his tenure, Cardinal Krozen worked tirelessly to strengthen the church in the
lives of the common people of Thrane, and to keep Thrane’s military strong."
"Although he was ruthless, his loyalty and devotion to the Silver Flame remained true . . . at least until the Mourning."
"Bit by bit, he has succumbed to the temptation of using dark magic..."
Krozen began as a deeply devout man. He's always been dedicated to strengthening Thrane. He's just always believed the prosperity of Thrane was tied to military strength, the strong influence of the church across the state, and his personal leadership. The Mourning exacerbated his character flaws - pushing him to deal with darker forces that the younger Krozen would never have dealt with. He's become more convinced that Thrane NEEDS him - as the ECS says, "If the Mourning was a magical phenomenon, he must find the trigger and control it to ensure that Thrane remains secure and to force his enemies to their knees." And in turn, he's become convinced that Thrane is, on some level, HIS nation - because he's the one who can keep it safe.
One of the challenges of the Silver Flame is that the closer you are to it, the closer you are to the Shadow in the Flame. The Keeper exists to help hold Bel Shalor at bay, but he's still there; and as the ECG says, "(Bel Shalor's) strength is his ability to trick good people into performing evil deeds."
Krozen's initial ability to tap into the power of the Flame is perfectly logical; he was deeply devout and passionate about his cause. As his path has turned darker, he's still drawing on the Flame - just the darker side of it. He's becoming a hypocrite in that the Church exists to protect people from the sort of dark forces he's starting to deal with; but I've always believed that in HIS mind, he's doing what's best for the people of Thrane. They need his strong hand. They need someone who will protect them from both the other nations and from the threat of the Mourning. And the Keeper just isn't strong enough.
He's more likely to be a villain than a hero in most campaigns. But in looking at his clerical ability, it's important to see that he was one of the most devout priests in the past; he's simply fallen from his way.
After all, High Cardinal Krozen has divine power, despite being a self-righteous a-hole and being a total hypocrite of the Silver Flame.
Krozen is a complex figure. Let's take a look at a few quotes from the 4E ECG...Show"He, like other senior religious officials, climbed through the church’s ranks, serving for a time as a holy warrior and priest, attaining the rank of archbishop for his zeal and unmatched piety."
"In truth, it was hard to object to Krozen’s appointment—few could match his knowledge of the sacred texts or his passion for the church."
"In the early years of his tenure, Cardinal Krozen worked tirelessly to strengthen the church in the
lives of the common people of Thrane, and to keep Thrane’s military strong."
"Although he was ruthless, his loyalty and devotion to the Silver Flame remained true . . . at least until the Mourning."
"Bit by bit, he has succumbed to the temptation of using dark magic..."
Krozen began as a deeply devout man. He's always been dedicated to strengthening Thrane. He's just always believed the prosperity of Thrane was tied to military strength, the strong influence of the church across the state, and his personal leadership. The Mourning exacerbated his character flaws - pushing him to deal with darker forces that the younger Krozen would never have dealt with. He's become more convinced that Thrane NEEDS him - as the ECS says, "If the Mourning was a magical phenomenon, he must find the trigger and control it to ensure that Thrane remains secure and to force his enemies to their knees." And in turn, he's become convinced that Thrane is, on some level, HIS nation - because he's the one who can keep it safe.
One of the challenges of the Silver Flame is that the closer you are to it, the closer you are to the Shadow in the Flame. The Keeper exists to help hold Bel Shalor at bay, but he's still there; and as the ECG says, "(Bel Shalor's) strength is his ability to trick good people into performing evil deeds."
Krozen's initial ability to tap into the power of the Flame is perfectly logical; he was deeply devout and passionate about his cause. As his path has turned darker, he's still drawing on the Flame - just the darker side of it. He's becoming a hypocrite in that the Church exists to protect people from the sort of dark forces he's starting to deal with; but I've always believed that in HIS mind, he's doing what's best for the people of Thrane. They need his strong hand. They need someone who will protect them from both the other nations and from the threat of the Mourning. And the Keeper just isn't strong enough.
He's more likely to be a villain than a hero in most campaigns. But in looking at his clerical ability, it's important to see that he was one of the most devout priests in the past; he's simply fallen from his way.
The thing that stands out was that Krozen is that he was fiercely devoted to the Silver Flame before he even begins his descent into darkness (or fall from grace, as it were). He's a textbook fanatic. One thing I believe is that you never trust a fanatic. They're closed-minded, self-righteous, and will only follow the rules as long as it suits their purpose. For that reason, I'd never give Krozen even the time of day. Hell, I wouldn't even piss on him if he was on fire.
There are fanatics in the church, but it's not a word I would have used for Krozen. However, the discussion about Krozen is really straying from the topic of this thread - I'm going to start a separate thread.
On another note, a quick look at The Keeper: What if The Keeper of the Flame is an aspect of The Keeper. Think about it: The Silver Flame is made up of a mass of spirits, and The Keeper is a keeper of the dead (in a manner of speaking), so maybe the Kepper of the Dead is THE KEEPER? The connection is weird, but interesting.
It is interesting. Not all cultures consider the Keeper to be an evil deity. The Restful Watch holds that the Keeper works with Aureon to save noble souls from Dolurrh so they can be reborn when they are most needed. If the Silver Flame IS a mass of noble spirits, it could be the same force the RW believes in. Where does the Keeper actually take the souls he snatches?
I'm curious, and maybe someone here knows the answer better, but when did the goblins begin worshipping the sovereigns? Were there always cults and sects that worshipped gods within the Dhakaani, or did they only turn to worshipping dieities after the Daelkyr arrived?
I'm not sure about the Dhakaani, but I know Llesh Haruuc has been pushing worship in the Sovereign Host since he took the reigns in Darguun. I think he worships Dol Arrah or Dol Dorn over the rest of the Host, but don't quote me on that.
I'm curious, and maybe someone here knows the answer better, but when did the goblins begin worshipping the sovereigns? Were there always cults and sects that worshipped gods within the Dhakaani, or did they only turn to worshipping dieities after the Daelkyr arrived?
If you're talking about the sixteen-god faith the Sarlonans found being practiced by the goblins when they arrived on Khorvaire, that was something that developed as the empire was collapsing, and may have been one of the factors that contributed to that collapse. So I'd expect the Heirs of Dhakaan to be dismissive or evil hostile towards it. However, it's certainly possible that it existed as a sect throughout the history of the empire - and that it was the chaos and devastation of the Daelkyr incursion that let it take root. But it was never a pillar of the empire.
I'm curious, and maybe someone here knows the answer better, but when did the goblins begin worshipping the sovereigns? Were there always cults and sects that worshipped gods within the Dhakaani, or did they only turn to worshipping dieities after the Daelkyr arrived?
If you're talking about the sixteen-god faith the Sarlonans found being practiced by the goblins when they arrived on Khorvaire, that was something that developed as the empire was collapsing, and may have been one of the factors that contributed to that collapse. So I'd expect the Heirs of Dhakaan to be dismissive or evil hostile towards it. However, it's certainly possible that it existed as a sect throughout the history of the empire - and that it was the chaos and devastation of the Daelkyr incursion that let it take root. But it was never a pillar of the empire.
I've been reading through the Eberron books (3.5 and 4E), and the Dhakaani were largely atheistic. The empire was essentially their religion, at least that's how I see it regarding the modern Heirs of Dhakaan.
I was also wondering, are there names for the Dragon Sovereigns in Thir? I know a few were mentioned and it is said these names were aspects or variations of names within the Sovereign Host (sort of like how the drow's Vulkoor may be an aspect of The Mockery), but I wondered if all the names were known.
Another thing: The Cabinet of Faces were said to appoint a head or whatever that is believed an incarnation of The Traveler, the last was over 200 years ago. What could be possibilities for how this occurs? What does everyone think?
To finish, I am still of the mind that a kalashtar of the Path of Light would really tickle the fancy of a cleric of The Traveler.
If you're talking about the sixteen-god faith the Sarlonans found being practiced by the goblins when they arrived on Khorvaire, that was something that developed as the empire was collapsing, and may have been one of the factors that contributed to that collapse. So I'd expect the Heirs of Dhakaan to be dismissive or evil hostile towards it. However, it's certainly possible that it existed as a sect throughout the history of the empire - and that it was the chaos and devastation of the Daelkyr incursion that let it take root. But it was never a pillar of the empire.
In the novels of Dragon Below and Traitors there was no open hostility or open dismissiveness towards religion by the Dhaakani main characters of those novels. It was a fact of life. Of course, showing open hostility to religion when you are trying to gather support for your own cause is not always a good idea, and even less so when a beloved sovereign assassinated by one of your own is burried.
From what I have read on goblins, I gather that the Dhaakaani's main spiritualism was centered on ancestor worship. Dirgesingers apparently hold an important role in their society, next to warchampions and artificers. Singing in honor to the dead, and keeping the stories of the past alive, feels a bit like ancestor worship to me.
In the novels of Dragon Below and Traitors there was no open hostility or open dismissiveness towards religion by the Dhaakani main characters of those novels.
Sure, but bear in mind that "The Heirs of Dhakaan" aren't a monolithic entity. For all that they've tried to maintain shared traditions of the empire and have held onto crucial things - martial disciplines, dirgesingers, caste structure - the Kech Volaar and Kech Sharaat are as different from one another as Karrns and Aundairians, and have had thousands of years for that to continue. The Kech Volaar are the most open-minded of the Dhakaani, the most interested in diplomacy as a solution to problems and in understanding the beliefs of other cultures as a tool to successful diplomacy. The Kech Sharaat, on the other hand, are considerably more aggressive. As such, I'd expect a dirgesinger of the Kech Volaar to treat a Cleric of the Host with respect and to be happy to discuss their faith... while a bladebearer of the Kech Sharaat might spit on a Ghaal'dar following Dol Dorn for his foolish faith. And those are just two.
Even there, however, I wasn't suggesting a blanket attitude across any of the Heirs of Dhakaan - but rather attitudes you might see from specific hobgoblins. The Ghaal'dar have fallen from the path the HoD held to. Their adoption of flawed faiths is a reflection of this. A diplomatic HoD will set this aside or even try to learn more about it. A typical HoD will likely say "So what? This has nothing to do with me." And an especially beligerant one will may react with hostility - because it's the excuse he needs to do so.
From what I have read on goblins, I gather that the Dhaakaani's main spiritualism was centered on ancestor worship. Dirgesingers apparently hold an important role in their society, next to warchampions and artificers. Singing in honor to the dead, and keeping the stories of the past alive, feels a bit like ancestor worship to me.
That's the idea. But as I see it, it's more about encouraging the future generation to draw inspiration from the deeds of ancestors than the literal "we keep our ancestors alive through our veneration" ancestor worship of the Aereni and the Tairnadal.