Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jeebus2010 Apr 06, 2008 18:18:33	I was explaining to a friend of mine the series of events that led to magic being from a dragons only thing to the elves but i couldn't figure out where humans learned to use magic. Divine magic is pretty simple to guess. kind of a self learned thing.
#2 Hellcow Apr 06, 2008 20:18:41	I was explaining to a friend of mine the series of events that led to magic being from a dragons only thing to the elves. By the current history? They figured it out on their own. It's a science, after all; different people can take different paths to it. Looking to Sarlona, Ohr Kaluun is noted as having a strong magical tradition including both wizards, warlocks, and mystic theurges. Khunan is described as having powerful wizards, and Corvagura as having a strong line of sorcerers. Of course, much of this knowledge was lost in the Sundering (and note that most of the humans of Khorvaire came from Rhiavhaar, not noted for magic); this is one reason for adventurers to go to Sarlona, to seek to find lost arcane secrets of Khunan or Ohr Kaluun. So, humans have been continuing to develop the arcane arts over the Age of Galifar. Personally, I feel that the Last War has actually been a period of remarkable advancement; during the peace of Galifar, things were somewhat stagnant, but the war spurred magical innovation (and deadlier weapons). But I don't feel that the humans were "given" magic in the same way the giants were. They likely learned some techniques from the elves, especially when you had the influx of elves after the destruction of the line of Vol; but actually, I think Aerenal as a society is more focused on the divine than the arcane, with its devotion to the Undying Court.
#3 Edymnion Apr 06, 2008 21:16:39	Yeah, its not Stargate, some people actually have been able to learn how to do a few things on their own without it coming from some ancient race as a hand-me-down. ;)
#4 jeebus2010 Apr 06, 2008 22:59:32	Human Inginutity FTW! :D
#5 Edymnion Apr 07, 2008 12:13:54	Human Inginutity FTW! :D I would say "who would have ever thought to try waving their arms around while babbling and throwing bat poop at somebody?" as to humans figuring out magic on their own, I would say the same thing about whoever had the bright idea to put mashed up seeds, raw eggs, bovine lactose, and stick squeezings (aka flour, eggs, milk, and sugar) into a pan, mix them up with some water, and stick it all in a fire for 20 minutes, and yet somebody invented the birthday cake all the same.
#6 vegetalss4 Apr 07, 2008 12:55:49	I would say "who would have ever thought to try waving their arms around while babbling and throwing bat poop at somebody?" as to humans figuring out magic on their own, I would say the same thing about whoever had the bright idea to put mashed up seeds, raw eggs, bovine lactose, and stick squeezings (aka flour, eggs, milk, and sugar) into a pan, mix them up with some water, and stick it all in a fire for 20 minutes, and yet somebody invented the birthday cake all the same. We are strange, and thats our greatest advantage
#7 Hellcow Apr 07, 2008 13:10:28	I would say "who would have ever thought to try waving their arms around while babbling and throwing bat poop at somebody?" For me, the key is that we don't know what primitive magic looked like. Equivalently, when we look at magic missile we're seeing a revolver... but the process of hitting someone at a distance began with just throwing a rock at them, and then coming up with a sling to throw the rock farther and harder, and so on. Eberron is a magical world. People can see that in manifest zones, divine magic (which I agree operates on a less scientific level), and the abilities of magical creatures. The discovery of words of power, of the power of motion to influence magic, and the use of certain materials (verbal, somatic, and material components) are probably all things that have evolved over time - and all things that have made magic more powerful and efficient than it once was. Alternately, it could be that ALL magic at one point used a specific component or focus - all wizards needed staves to channel magic - and it was only in recent decades that a critical discovery broke them of this dependency. And beyond that, if you believe in the gods, there is always room for divine inspiration. A man wakes up one day with a brilliant idea for three foundational words of power. Perhaps his research just clicked in his head - or perhaps it was a gift of the Sovereign Aureon.
#8 RedRider Apr 07, 2008 14:00:12	Then again there's sorcerers. Who could probably cast some spells without needing to understand them. ("PRETTY LIGHTS!") Then a few generations later under the rule of the sorcerer-kings, scholar-slave Aur E. Ron comes along, looks at the sorcerers and says "I bet I could do that, only with self discipline instead of some kind of blood-given power." Thirteen generations and a hundred years of magical war later, there's wizards casting Dancing Lights everywhere.
#9 Hellcow Apr 07, 2008 14:21:51	Then again there's sorcerers. Who could probably cast some spells without needing to understand them. ("PRETTY LIGHTS!") Yup. Of course, by default, a sorcerer still needs guano to cast fireball. Which means you probably saw a lot of Corvaguran sorcerers with Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, and Still Spell - essentially, until they figured out more efficient ways to channel their powers, they had to learn to do them without those components. However, as they had the power, they could work at finding ways to channel it - and then the sages of Ohr Kaluun and Khunan could seek to replicate these effects in other ways. I assume that there's actually a whole list of "primitive spells" that just don't exist any more, because they suck. Today, a 3rd-level spell slot gets you fireball - it just takes guano and a word of power. Two thousand years ago, people may have spent that same spell slot on flameshot - a single target, wimpier version of scorching ray that didn't have components. Again, look at the evolution of firearms, explosives, etc, etc and assume that magic has gone through the same sort of evolution. It may be that the mages of Ohr Kaluun mastered secrets unknown even in modern Khorvaire. The people of Nulakhesh and Rhiavhaar weren't that advanced. Doesn't mean that they didn't have magic - it just means that their magic may have really sucked by modern standards. The simplest way to do this is just to take a modern spell and make Still Spell and Silent Spell an innate part of it - which would make magic missile a third level spell. But I do think they may simply have had different, lamer effects as well.
#10 artector Apr 07, 2008 16:14:54	Also there's ritual magic, or at least I'd think there'd be. Stuff that incorporates elaborate ceremonies to natural elements, eventually someone with the actual ability to do magic did a ritual and blew up their table (produced something). Over time they started replicating it, realized they didn't need to turn north and honor the great beast of winter to chill something, they simply needed to make some mimicry of the act. And thus the somatic components would be born. As it seperated from religion arcane magic would become more scientific. I could see magic being developed in this way, though it certainly doesn't have to be. And I do like the points in this thread. Theoretical speculation is really entertaining.
#11 Hellcow Apr 07, 2008 16:26:04	Over time they started replicating it, realized they didn't need to turn north and honor the great beast of winter to chill something, they simply needed to make some mimicry of the act. One of the chapters I did for Atlas Games' Occult Lore dealt with sympathetic magic, which follows some of these same principles - perform magic by creating sympathetic connections between the actions you perform and the results you wish to have happen. It's certainly the sort of thing one could see as laying the path for the more "modern" form of arcane magic, and a ground on which they could discover basic arcane principles.
#12 fabius_maximus Apr 08, 2008 6:06:16	What about artifice? I'd like the idea that it was invented by the Dhakaani, and the human settlers just "stole" their secrets. Or stumbled over them.
#13 Nived Apr 08, 2008 12:13:53	I don't see artifice as something that needs to be taught either. In the same way that some people in this world don't need to go to college to become mechanical or electrical engineers to build, wire up, customize, and trick out a hot rod. They just need access to a car and time to learn how it works by messing with it. That's what Artificers do, in a way. Wizards are the engineers who originally designed the magical items. Artificers are the guys who took them apart to see how they work, put them back together again and figured out that if you pump nitrous into the carborator it'll go faster. In effect.
#14 cuaglar Apr 11, 2008 13:37:25	Another way it might have come about, that I can see, is through incantations like those found in Unearthed Arcana. For those unfamiliar, here is a link: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedIncantations.html I've never used incantations in Eberron, in part because they're a little tricky to design, but also because I've never thought of a role for them before. But now I do. The vital point of an incantation is that it can be cast by people who have no magical power, either for a sorcerer, wizard, or artificer. Draconic magic, of course, is natural, but for humans of Sarlona arcane magic could have developed from using incantations from people who had the appropriate skills. Rituals to hasten the spring or lessen a harsh winter, put a defensive ward around the village, and so on. And then, perhaps the first sorcerer was created when an incantation was used to imbue a newborn child with arcane magic, and wizardry branched out from that first batch of sorcery. Also, I don't know the entire deal about dragons in Sarlona, but apparently there were, and are, some living there. Out of hundreds of dragons living there for thousands of years, it's not improbable that one of them decided to teach the rudiments of arcane magic to someone, most probably like an experiment. Like giving cold chimpanzees a small fire. And then, boom! It works! Mr. Adaptive Human Race manages to actually use magic! Oops.
#15 romulus_lonewolf Apr 12, 2008 19:42:04	Interestingly, Pyramid Online Magazine printed, some time ago, an article about the possible development of magic from early primitive spellcasting to more sophisticated effects, called The Five Movements of Magic. To sum them up here: The First Movement is Intuitive Magic, the very earliest principles of magic - the laws of contagion and sympathy - are discovered, and elaborate rituals involving one or the other of those laws are created. Spellcasters are seen as blessed, divine beings (even if the magic is Arcane) and Magic is limited to basic spells and "agrarian" magic, and requires extensive rituals and props to work. The Second Movement is Utilitarian Magic, where magic stops being seen as a divine act and starts being seen as a tool to be used and improved upon. Mages begin to learn how to cast spells without mystical props, and simpler and less time-consuming rituals are developped. The Third Movement is Structured Magic, where the magical community continues assessing the logic and structure of magic, leading to the formation of a formal, systemic approach to spellcasting, leading to the formation of Spell Schools. The Fourth Movement is Abstract Magic, where abstract philosophical thought is developped and applied to the study of magic. The nature of matter starts to be analyzed and debated upon, more sophisticated manipulations of the sentiant mind is undertaken, and the manipulation of reality itself begins. The Fifth Movement is Higher Magic, where the theoritical limits of magic are fully explored. Spells begin to explore time, space and other dimensions, and some experiments in the creation of life begins. It is also discovered how to permanently store magical energy within items, leading to the creation of magical items. ...Now, that article was designed for use with the GURPS Magic system, but I can see a similar approach working with D&D spells.
#16 elrodian Apr 20, 2008 14:02:29	I think Aerenal as a society is more focused on the divine than the arcane, with its devotion to the Undying Court. The Elves are more foced on arcane magic. Aerenal the only thing that charges is arcane magice all other thing like makeing weapons or farming has not change but arcane magic is the only thing that is allowed to chang
#17 mystrich Apr 20, 2008 15:12:38	What about artifice? I'd like the idea that it was invented by the Dhakaani, and the human settlers just "stole" their secrets. Or stumbled over them. I don't see how it's the Dhakaani, for the same reason you can't create infusions. Artificers can add to the artificer infusions list by going to Xen'drik and finding infusions in Giant ruins (sure you could rule that Dhakaani had infusions no one had found, but Giants has access to much more magic and technology'). IMO No one created artifice, it's just the study of magic items to the point you gain the ability to replicate their abilities, both in creating items and with the ability to use infusions.
#18 fabius_maximus Apr 21, 2008 9:22:24	I don't see how it's the Dhakaani, for the same reason you can't create infusions. Artificers can add to the artificer infusions list by going to Xen'drik and finding infusions in Giant ruins (sure you could rule that Dhakaani had infusions no one had found, but Giants has access to much more magic and technology'). IMO No one created artifice, it's just the study of magic items to the point you gain the ability to replicate their abilities, both in creating items and with the ability to use infusions. Who says that the goblins didn't learn artifice from the giants that migrated to Khorvaire?
#19 Hellcow Apr 21, 2008 12:05:54	The Elves are more foced on arcane magic. Aerenal the only thing that charges is arcane magice all other thing like makeing weapons or farming has not change but arcane magic is the only thing that is allowed to change The Aereni have always had an interest in "magic and mysticism" - but remember that divine magic is just as much magic as arcane magic is. The same goes for the PGtE statement (written by, well, me): Only in magic is innovation encouraged, as the Aereni believe that there is no such thing as perfection when it comes to the arts of magic... Magic taken generally - not arcane magic alone. And when you look at Aerenal, its greatest innovations have been in the divine arena. The PGtE specifically calls out the fact that the younger races have begun to match the magical abilities of the Aereni, despite the fact that the Aereni have been practicing the arts of magic for more than twenty thousand years longer than they have. The elf wizard and human wizard both cast the same sort of fireball. But when it comes to divine magic, the elves have something humanity has never matched: the Undying Court. Taken as a whole, the Court has the power of a true god. They're the only mortal culture to have achieved something like this. Beyond this, the majority of the Aereni institutions that we know about are divine organizations - The Undying Court and its priests, and the paladins and clerics of the Deathguard. And the new Aereni spell presented in the PGtE is a cleric spell. And for what it's worth, I firmly believe that divine magic is also something that needs to be explored and developed - that discovering proper rituals and prayers to channel divine powers in specific ways is itself an art. It took the Aereni thousands of years to create the Undying Court. And while it is technically true that a cleric can prepare any cleric spell that exists, I've always felt free to place restrictions on that list. The create spirit idol spell in PGtE doesn't say that you HAVE to be Aereni to use it - but it is supposed to be a ritual unique to Aerenal, and I see know reason for a priest of the Silver Flame to instantly have access to the spell simply because it exists in a book. This is something I've said in other sourcebooks regarding places like Sarlona and Xen'drik; personally, rather than just dumping a huge mess of new cleric spells on the players whenever a new sourcebook comes out and having to explain why you didn't use cool spell X last week, I prefer to say that these new spells are tied to Khalesh or Pyrine, or are simply new innovations spreading through the churches of Khorvaire (raising the possibility that some priests will consider use of a particular new spell to be heresy). Thus cleric spells can become a form of treasure just like wizard spells, as you learn new ways to invoke the favor of your gods - and potentially have to face consequences if a spell is considered a heretical practice. But back on point, I maintain that the Aereni are stronger with divine magic than they are with arcane - which is one reason I don't agree with the "Make the Aereni into eladrin because they're +int elves" approach.
#20 elrodian Apr 21, 2008 12:26:32	Hellcow i see where u are comeing from but it is sayed in The Elves of Aerenal, Part Two the elves find it easys to become wizards and it does also goes on to say that the Undying Court was created with energy of Irian by necromancer so think the Elves priest are priest/necromancer This is the link http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050613a
#21 Hellcow Apr 21, 2008 12:59:54	Hellcow i see where u are comeing from but it is sayed in The Elves of Aerenal, Part Two... Just checking, Elrodian - you are aware that I wrote that article, right? Now let's go back to my original statement: I think of Aerenal as a society is more focused on the divine than the arcane, with its devotion to the Undying Court. Again, the key - as stated in PGtE - is that the elves are a people devoted to magic and mysticism, which encompasses both arcane and divine magic. When I speak of necromancy in these articles, I speak of it in both the arcane and divine sense; remember that there's plenty of divine spells in the necromancy sphere, such as the create spirit idol spell presented in the PGtE. The elves do have a natural gift for wizardry, which is a reflection of their ability to multiclass as wizards - but as the PGtE points out, while the elves had a much earlier start, humans are quickly catching up in arcane sophistication. Beyond that, what I was talking about was Aereni SOCIETY. And there, there's no question that divine plays a greater role than arcane. More elves may have wizard levels than do cleric levels. But as a society, the Aereni aren't a magocracy, and we haven't described vast influence of schools of magic. As a culture, every elf doesn't aspire to become an archmage. But every elf DOES hope to prove worthy to join the Undying Court. Every line has its deathless advisors. Arcane magic is something the elves value and something they are good at. But it's divine magic that truly defines their society, and it is divine magic where they have accomplished things no other mortal civilization has matched.
#22 elrodian Apr 21, 2008 14:03:12	Well no i did not know that so now i feel stuiped lol but know i get what u are saying know i thought that u were saying that the elves more talented with divine magic then arcane magic.
#23 Edymnion Apr 21, 2008 17:26:03	Well no i did not know that so now i feel stuiped lol Heh, yeah, just in case you hadn't heard, Hellcow is Keith Baker. The setting creator. Thats his name on the front of the ECS. ;)
#24 elrodian Apr 21, 2008 18:49:12	Heh, yeah, just in case you hadn't heard, Hellcow is Keith Baker. The setting creator. Thats his name on the front of the ECS. ;) yes i know what when he said he wrote the article
#25 romulus_lonewolf Apr 22, 2008 23:14:18	Don't forget, being proficient with Divine Magic doesn't prevent you from becoming proficient with Arcane Magic as well. Case in point: The Mystic Theurge prestige class.
#26 beckettvampire Apr 28, 2008 10:47:14	Might not help, and this is in no way connected to Eberron, but in all my games, Arcane magic was developed by magic users that studied the miracles Divine characters did. They essentialy stumbles upon the basics of alchemy and duplicated 0 level spells such as light. It took hundreds of years, and a lot of anthropology, but arcane magic attempted to duplicate these miracles for the common people, (and for personal power, etc. . .) but that is why arcane magic is more common, usually more appearently flashy, and a lot more scientific in nature. Almost every (presplat book) arcane spell can be found in a divine spell to, and those that can not are just research that went the wrong way and found something new altogether. While the arcanists didn't steal anything fromthe divine side in game, they are always much less wise and a great deal more arrogant, so they took pride in naming spells after themselves (like Bigby's. . ., or Tenser's Tran.), and there is a bit of a argument between the two, as the divine side generally feels that respect should be given to the powers that be for originating the magic, not some foolish but lucky mortal that is dust now for throwing a few bat turds and a handfull of dust in the air, speaking some giberish, and calling on arcane power. Mechanically, that usually just boils down to divinely made scrolls (or whatever) being named a more religious name and wizards sometimes not knowing what its arcane spell is. Take Identify, a Divine spell on the Magic Domain and a general Wizard spell. Divine example- a simple prayer that beseaches the deities to impart their wisdom and experience in hopes of empowering the mind and faith and leading to true revelations. . . Arcane example- Identify
#27 just_another_user Apr 29, 2008 16:56:52	I was explaining to a friend of mine the series of events that led to magic being from a dragons only thing to the elves but i couldn't figure out where humans learned to use magic. Divine magic is pretty simple to guess. kind of a self learned thing. In my Eberron the actual status of arcane magic knowledge come from the study of dragonmarks. Before dragonmarks the few existing human wizards were linked (directly or indirectly) to elves (i.e an elf teached magic to a human, he teached it to their apprentice (human, of course) and so on, and so on) and maybe some very gifted hedge wizard (and of course the odd sorcerer). With the study of dragonmarks , financed by dragomarked Houses in the attempt to recreate their effects and to create items apt to amplify and widen the applications of their powers, was also created the base of modern taumaturgical science in Eberron, included the discovery of magewright and artificer tecniques, a true arcane revolution. Elven magic is still more advanced because they have some thousand of years of advantage, but the gap is getting every year smaller.