Now, the Player's Guide will certainly be a "must buy" as it will have all the mechanical updating of Eberron to 4e... but have they mentioned any significant changes or additions that will make the 4e Eberron Campaign Guide a "must buy" for those very familiar with the setting from 3.5e?
...or armed with your knowledge of 3.5e Eberron, will the seasoned fans just be grabbing the 4e Eberron Player's Guide and hopping right into their new Eberron campaigns?
So I hear they're not going to advance the world time-frame when they re-introduce Eberron for 4e.
Now, the Player's Guide will certainly be a "must buy" as it will have all the mechanical updating of Eberron to 4e... but have they mentioned any significant changes or additions that will make the 4e Eberron Campaign Guide a "must buy" for those very familiar with the setting from 3.5e?
...or armed with your knowledge of 3.5e Eberron, will the seasoned fans just be grabbing the 4e Eberron Player's Guide and hopping right into their new Eberron campaigns?
Yes. Anything Eberron is a "must buy".
For players I would recommend NOT getting the Campaign Setting. For DMs however I would say it was a must. It is bound to have information that might have been stretched over several books previously, as well as updated rules for the more esoteric stuff (eldritch machines for instance). Concerning the "new" races and classes it might also have important background information and various secret factions and intrigue in general.
The point still stands, though, that the ECG is where all of the quori, daelkyr, dolgaunts, etc. will probably be found.
If you've got access to DDi then I'd say this is significantly less of a draw if you've got the 3.5e ECS.
Based on the FRCG and what we've been told about ECG I'm going to say it isn't a must if you have the 3.5e books. It will of course have some stuff you can't find anywhere else, but the percentage of this will be fairly small (IMO). The FRCG was an update to the setting, from what I've gathered the ECG will be a correction (some things were overemphasised, other things weren't emphasised enough) with some minor exclusive content.
Yes. Anything Eberron is a "must buy".
Yup yup. New details about the setting, no matter how small, are still new details. :D
I intend to buy the 4e ECG... was just wondering if it was sounding like you really needed it before starting a new 4e campaign, if you were already very familiar with the world and had the 3.5e books.
More/new info is indeed nice... but if there's not that much, there's little reason to hesitate kicking off a new campaign as soon as you get your hands on the Player's Guide.
...good catch reminding me that the monster write-ups will be in there. That is pretty darn essential overall (though you could easily use insider or simply not involve those monsters till the book comes out a month later).
I intend to buy the 4e ECG... was just wondering if it was sounding like you really needed it before starting a new 4e campaign, if you were already very familiar with the world and had the 3.5e books.
Well, I've been running an Eberron campaign for a couple of months now, so technically you don't need either of them. I have cautioned my players, though, that there may be some retconning when the books come out.
Yes. Anything Eberron is a "must buy".
QFT
There's a diff between a "must buy" and a "should still buy even if not an absolute must". ;)
I intend to buy the 4e ECG... was just wondering if it was sounding like you really needed it before starting a new 4e campaign...
Of course you don't NEED it to start a 4th Edition Eberron campaign... In fact, I've been running one for months now. We started a week after 4th Edition launched. We've been running weekly/bi-weekly for 25 sessions now. That's about 8 months now and it'll be 9 before the 4th Edition ECG and EPG releases.
On the other hand, I cannot WAIT to get my hands on the new ECG and EPG in order to inject some more 4E Eberron goodness into my ongoing campaign (save ends).
Actually, it is my impression, that the Player's Guide is mainly for players and that the Campaign Setting will contain all the spoilers that you might not want your players having access to. It always annoyed me that some secrets (a certain longevous monarch comes to mind..) were spelled out in the 3.5 books, when the revealing of them should have been a major climax of your storyline.
For players I would recommend NOT getting the Campaign Setting. For DMs however I would say it was a must. It is bound to have information that might have been stretched over several books previously, as well as updated rules for the more esoteric stuff (eldritch machines for instance). Concerning the "new" races and classes it might also have important background information and various secret factions and intrigue in general.
-The same is/was said for the Forgotten Realms, and I disagreed then.
-Personally, when players are making up characters, they need to know what the world is like in order to make those characters. Being familiar with the Forgotten Realms, and having both the new FRCG and the FRPG, I don't think, that relying primarily on the FRPG and the FRPG alone, you'd have enough to make a well thought out character. Being as that Eberron is getting the very same treatment, I'd expect the same from those books. I use an example that is only relevant to the Forgotten Realms, but being as that I don't know anything about Eberron, I can 'translate' it. The gist of it, though, is that if players don't know about the world they're playing in, they create character concepts that don't work in the setting- a Wizard from a country that does not tolerate Wizards, or a race from a country that does not tolerate that race, or some other combination that doesn't make sense unless a great deal of bending and twisting goes on to accommodate that odd combination of race, class, back story, and whatever else.
4E Eberron is not going through the same sorts of changes as 4E FR did. If you're deeply familiar with 3E Eberron, you certainly could run without it. However, having worked on the 4E ECG, I'm happy with it and feel that it addresses a lot of things I wish we'd had in the original ECS. You've got more detailed write-ups on a lot of subjects, regions, and groups that were only touched on in the ECS, along with a few new organizations or threats. It's not ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, but I feel that it's certainly a good read with lots of useful material.
Cool.
As mentioned, I totally intend to buy it ...I was more wondering if I should wait till I buy/read it to start a new campaign. Sounding like that won't be essential (to wait, that is) - good to hear. I do look forward to the new monster write-ups, new threats, and expanded info on old favorites. :D
Thanks for the info, all!
-Personally, when players are making up characters, they need to know what the world is like in order to make those characters.
Of course they do. I happen to believe, that FRPG does quite a good job at giving the information you ask for (I will admit though, to not having read the FR books that closely, since I decided to use Eberron as a setting). However in the case of Eberron a lot of the grand story of the world revolves around secret organizations and their various plots. By revealing all of these to your players you lose the element of surprise (both mechanically and in terms of narrative).
That has always been a pet peeve of mine in regards to the sourcebooks. I liked reading them for the fluff and background stories, but kept running across stuff I shouldn't know as a player. In fact, the main reason I chose to place my own campaign in Eberron is that I knew my players did not know the world, whereas everyone and their grandmother has read something about FR and can lecture for hours upon secret organizations and historical minutiae.
I suppose it really comes down to whether you build your character with the DM as the campaign progresses or you sit down and write it all before. I tend to prefer the former, but can certainly see the appeal of the latter.
Of course they do. I happen to believe, that FRPG does quite a good job at giving the information you ask for (I will admit though, to not having read the FR books that closely, since I decided to use Eberron as a setting). However in the case of Eberron a lot of the grand story of the world revolves around secret organizations and their various plots. By revealing all of these to your players you lose the element of surprise (both mechanically and in terms of narrative).
That has always been a pet peeve of mine in regards to the sourcebooks. I liked reading them for the fluff and background stories, but kept running across stuff I shouldn't know as a player. In fact, the main reason I chose to place my own campaign in Eberron is that I knew my players did not know the world, whereas everyone and their grandmother has read something about FR and can lecture for hours upon secret organizations and historical minutiae.
I suppose it really comes down to whether you build your character with the DM as the campaign progresses or you sit down and write it all before. I tend to prefer the former, but can certainly see the appeal of the latter.
Or a combination of both. Player who joins an organization, knowing that there exists some secret or corruption, but being largely unaware to what extent it goes.
Or a combination of both. Player who joins an organization, knowing that there exists some secret or corruption, but being largely unaware to what extent it goes.
Exactly. I would define this as the difference between knowing that the Dreaming Dark exists and knowing the names and locations of their agents in Khorvaire. Or knowing that the Church of the Silver Flame draws fanatics and is prone to corruption and knowing every single secret cabal, power-hungry cardinal and murderous zealot in the organization.
Or knowing that the Church of the Silver Flame draws fanatics and is prone to corruption...
Just as an observation, I'll point out that while we've paid a lot of attention to corruption where it's appeared, I don't believe the CotSF is any more PRONE to corruption than the other major faiths of Eberron. The Blood of Vol has serious problems with corrupt priests abusing the faith of the followers (Erandis Vol among them). The Sovereign Host does better because there's less of an organized hierarchy for an ambitious, corrupt person to take advantage of, but Stormreach gives an example of corruption within the SH... and in Breland, a priest of the Dark Six can often be considered a corrupt priest of the Sovereign Host (entirely different story in, say, Droaam, but that's something else entirely). The Path of Light may do better because the telepathic nature of the kalashtar makes it a little harder to hide a lack of faith and impure motives... and the Undying Court is an interesting one as well.
The Silver Flame has a problem with corruption, and we've focused on this to a greater degree than the SH... but I don't see the faith as innately generating corruption any more easily than the SH or BoV. We've just put it more in the spotlight.
The Silver Flame has a problem with corruption, and we've focused on this to a greater degree than the SH... but I don't see the faith as innately generating corruption any more easily than the SH or BoV. We've just put it more in the spotlight.
The brighter the light, the starker the shadow?
Though it is for 4th edition, would the ECG be of any use for 3.5 games as well? How much of the new information about Eberron is dependent on 4th edition specific mechanics, and/or cosmology?
I doubt it will be of very much use to you. The main things about the ECG (based on comments from Keith and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide) are:
1) Incorporating the 4th ed-isms (eladrin, dragonborn, shadowfell) in a seamless manner.
2) Stressing different aspects of Eberron then were stressed in the 3.5e books
3) Including a chapter on possible ways to advance the Eberron timeline.
4) A chapter on a town or city in Eberron.
Point (1) isn't of much use to you. As for Point (2) if you've read Keiths comments on this forum and on his blog then you probably already know a lot about what will be stressed or de-emphasised in the ECG (playing down the "priests are evil, especially ones for the Silver Flame" as that was accidentally emphasised a bit too much in the 3.5e books with Silver Flame priests only as corrupt as anyone else. Also playing up the Draconic Prophecy and also playing up on how important the Last War is and how everything isn't hunky-dory).
Point (3). However from memory that was mentioned a year ago and hasn't been talked about very much since. It could be this chapter has been cut from the final book. Also Point (4) could be quite useful, depending on which location is explored. If its Sharn I think you've probably got all the information you need. Although if its Whitecliff from Q'barra that could be useful for you.
All of that is just my impression. It could be I'm remembering things wrong or I might have misunderstood a comment here or there.
If you are interested in the 4th ed ECG, definitely don't preorder it. At the very least wait for people's comments on the forum who've read it.
As for Point (2) if you've read Keiths comments on this forum and on his blog then you probably already know a lot about what will be stressed or de-emphasised in the ECG (playing down the "priests are evil, especially ones for the Silver Flame" as that was accidentally emphasised a bit too much in the 3.5e books with Silver Flame priests only as corrupt as anyone else. Also playing up the Draconic Prophecy and also playing up on how important the Last War is and how everything isn't hunky-dory).
I also got the impression that certain villains, organizations and regions, that were not focused overly on in earlier books would be getting their due. I expect we might see Erandis d'Vol or Mordain the Fleshweaver statted out or at least expanded on. The Shadow Marches, Q'Barra and the Demon Wastes might get more background treatment. It would also be nice to see more info on the Order of the Emerald Claw and possibly the Lords of Dust.
I also seem to recall Keith mentioning "new" threats to Khorvaire (there was speculation on another thread about an undead Lhazaar).
1) Incorporating the 4th ed-isms (eladrin, dragonborn, shadowfell) in a seamless manner.
Indeed.
2) Stressing different aspects of Eberron then were stressed in the 3.5e books
This is the main point that I think will make the book of interest to purely 3E DMs. The point is that the 4E ECG is about the same size as the old ECG, but is purely CAMPAIGN material. As a result, there's simply more room to go into greater depth about everything from nations, current events, dragonmarked houses, conspiracies, religions, and general campaign flavor. Nations beyond the Five Nations get longer and deeper entries. Groups that got a half page entry in the original ECS get two or more pages this time around. And taking points like the impact of the Last War, it's not that it was presented in a different manner in previous books - it simply wasn't presented clearly at all. So I do believe that there is flavor material here that will be of interest to the all Eberron DMs. You'll have to decide if this makes it worth the purchase to you. It's not NEW material; by and large it's concepts that have always colored my writing. But it's things that may not have been presented in depth in the past.
3) Including a chapter on possible ways to advance the Eberron timeline.
I don't believe that such a thing exists. There's certainly a section discussing the current events that may play a critical role in shaping the future. But if there's literally any map of the future, I didn't work on it and didn't see it when I was able to review the text.
At the very least wait for people's comments on the forum who've read it.
Never bad advice. But in my opinion, we did managed to put stuff in the book that will make it of interest to all Eberron DMs. It's not just the 3E ECS with 4E game mechanics. I hope you'll share this opinion when you have a chance to read it. ;)
Never bad advice. But in my opinion, we did managed to put stuff in the book that will make it of interest to all Eberron DMs. It's not just the 3E ECS with 4E game mechanics. I hope you'll share this opinion when you have a chance to read it. ;)
Covering player and DM knowledge in the same book detracted a bit from the 3e's ECS. Which is one reason why I prefer the current system of separation.
Covering player and DM knowledge in the same book detracted a bit from the 3e's ECS. Which is one reason why I prefer the current system of separation.
I couldn't agree more. I'm looking forward to July.
Covering player and DM knowledge in the same book detracted a bit from the 3e's ECS. Which is one reason why I prefer the current system of separation.
Agreed. I'm fortunately lucky enough that my players never read anything about Eberron in 3.5e.
As a result, there's simply more room to go into greater depth about everything
Oh that's good to hear. I knew theoretically it had to be the case because of how much player info the 3.5e ECS had. But theory doesn't always mesh with reality ;)
You'll have to decide if this makes it worth the purchase to you. It's not NEW material; by and large it's concepts that have always colored my writing. But it's things that may not have been presented in depth in the past.
Indeed something else to consider isn't whether or not its better for DMs then the 3.5e ECS. But to consider whether or not its better for someone who has an entire library of the 3.5e books.
Although that's a call I won't be making. While I can talk about how I think the 4e ECS will be, once its out I can't compare it to the 3.5e one because while I've read it, I read it once and that was last year.
I don't believe that such a thing exists. There's certainly a section discussing the current events that may play a critical role in shaping the future. But if there's literally any map of the future, I didn't work on it and didn't see it when I was able to review the text.
Aaawh, bummer. That must have been one of the things I remembered wrong. I was under the impression we'd get it as notes on what had been planned for a timeline shift that we could ignore or use as we wished.
Although I'm somewhat glad as I was planning on ignoring it. I was going to give it a chance of course, but I prefer to go with my own stories anyway ;)
The Blood of Vol has serious problems with corrupt priests abusing the faith of the followers (Erandis Vol among them).
I have to say, I'd really like to read more about the good part of the Blood of Vol. Faiths of Eberron did cover it, and introduce the religion as not-as-malevolent-as-you-think, but it was still kinda evil. I'd like to be able to portray it as a religion a PC could play, and then drop the bomb.
The brighter the light, the starker the shadow?
Oooo. Nice.
I have to say, I'd really like to read more about the good part of the Blood of Vol. Faiths of Eberron did cover it, and introduce the religion as not-as-malevolent-as-you-think, but it was still kinda evil. I'd like to be able to portray it as a religion a PC could play, and then drop the bomb.
Check this website out:
http://www.karrnathishadows.com/BloodofVol.html
I personally find it very hard with BoV's holy symbol to perceive them as anything but evil.