On an unrelated note, it's probably a good thing elves can't make their own bows, because apparently its against their elfdom to cut living wood... (4e PHB p. 41)..
Seriously though, what the h*ll happened to craft...
PC: I'm going to make my own bow!
DM: OK. You'll need to gather the materials and spend a few days working. How do you start?
Skill challenges... rituals... lots of options...
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1040842
Re: the skill challenge encounters... YES, you can do it that way, but it certainly doesn't address the quality of any particular item, and its also an incredibly irritating for a character who is all about fabrication.
The best characters I've ever had made excellent use of Craft on a regular basis. It provided, I think, a very enriching level of customization to the game that kept me coming back.
In 20 years you've never experienced a craft check? Ya'll must have some unimaginative players.
Oh, I'm sure I've rolled a craft check for something, but the idea of spending points in a skill that comes up once in a blue moon...
And, while I assume your being jestful, we've had some very enjoyable campaigns and sessions without them. Professions and Crafting are simply not our bag of tricks.
Dare I make the connection, and no kick intended on D&D or any MMORG, when I first played my first MMORG I noticed they had skills. I tried them. I met some folks who lived and died by them, skills were the uber of game mechanics. I don't enjoy them in video games, nor in tabletop.
We've always played more hack slash, dungeon crawl, since day one. Were not there to build a city, become a lord of some town. We show up when something needs to die, and we do our jobs well!
We've always played more hack slash, dungeon crawl, since day one. Were not there to build a city, become a lord of some town. We show up when something needs to die, and we do our jobs well!
HAHA!! Now there's an attitude I can get behind. Totally great example of stylistic differences. Our play style has always been more like, show up, kill bad guy, enslave their entire family, sell all of their possessions, melt down all the metal into brand new shiny weapons, put the animals and underlings on treadmill for primitive energy production... you know, market economics 101.
Most of this came about as a result of the fact that our DM was uber-stingy when it came to handing out treasure, so we basically got creative and did what we had to do to "get by".
Re: the skill challenge encounters... YES, you can do it that way, but it certainly doesn't address the quality of any particular item, and its also an incredibly irritating for a character who is all about fabrication.
The best characters I've ever had made excellent use of Craft on a regular basis. It provided, I think, a very enriching level of customization to the game that kept me coming back.
I'm not sure I understand why it is more irritating to a player who has a character that is all about crafting?
Given a reasonable character background, they can make all the same (or 4e equivalent) things.
The quality of the items? You want rules for masterwork items I take it? Do those still exist? Can't be that hard to do as a skill challenge.
You can still have a very enriching level of customization without having to worry about robbing Peter to pay Paul.
This takes me back to the release of Saga Edition. Crafting stuff wasn't core then either, and everyone made a stink.
This will go down in one of two ways...
A WOTC will tell everyone that crafting is not heroic, and should be done off screen.
People will complain.
A WOTC will tell everyone that they want crafting just so they can get cheap weapons and armor.
People will complain.
DnD Insider will publish an article about crafting. It will be a feat, and will give you a small bonus. Eventually it will be expanded so that you can add different mundane properties that have limited focus.
OR...
In like two months the Arms and Equipment guide is coming out and there will be feats in there that let you make awesome items, the likes of which have never been seen before. It will have a simple and effective system that probably doesnt involve rolling for craft checks, and wont let you get powerful items for cheap.
I'm hoping for the second one!
In like two months the Arms and Equipment guide is coming out and there will be feats in there that let you make awesome items, the likes of which have never been seen before. It will have a simple and effective system that probably doesnt involve rolling for craft checks, and wont let you get powerful items for cheap.
I'm hoping for the second one!
I'm with you, brother!
For instance, mathematics isn't explicitly mentioned as a skill, so just assume that any PC is a budding Euler or Ramanujan if he cares about it. Or he might suck at math, if you want him to, as a matter of fluff.
So if you say your elf is a master bowmaker, he is. If you say your elf is a master bowmaker, a brilliant chef, a genius mathematician, and a beautiful singer, he's all that too.
Seriously though, what the h*ll happened to craft...
To quote the designers themselves, crafting wasn't "sexy enough" to be worthy of 4e.
On an unrelated note, it's probably a good thing elves can't make their own bows, because apparently its against their elfdom to cut living wood... (4e PHB p. 41)..
Not a problem. In Eberron, they just make their bows out of livewood, which remains alive even when cut.
Seriously, though, this is a case where the PHB fluff is irrelevant when dealing with the Eberron setting. The Valenar and Tairnadal won't have their fluff changed in 4E, anymore than they paid much attention to the fluff of the elf in the 3.5 PHB. Obviously, this topic isn't about elves, but as has been mentioned, it's basically not about Eberron - it's a complaint about a core 4E system (or lack thereof).
To quote the designers themselves, crafting wasn't "sexy enough" to be worthy of 4e.
Clearly they never had anyone take ranks in Craft (sex toys). Or had to deal with those artificers making those special warforged... component items.
Just curious... what am I missing that makes this an Eberron topic as opposed to a generic 4E systems discussion?
Because they wanted an Eberron specific response, most likely because they play an Artificer and realized that so far, the very, most basic idea of the Artificer as someone who makes items and magic items, cannot be done in 4e?
Clearly they never had anyone take ranks in Craft (sex toys). Or had to deal with those artificers making those special warforged... component items.
In all seriousness I believe the new ECS will solve most of the existing problems people are having with the 4th edition rules Hopefully
Because they wanted an Eberron specific response, most likely because they play an Artificer and realized that so far, the very, most basic idea of the Artificer as someone who makes items and magic items, cannot be done in 4e?
OK, first: that's a great answer if it was in fact the case. However, as I read it, I'm the first person in the thread who even MENTIONED the artificer. As I read things, it's a completely generic ***** session that specifically calls out the fluff of 4E's PHB elves - nothing to do with Eberron whatsoever. It doesn't talk about House Cannith, the roles of the Dragonmarked houses, or any of that. Simply "4E has no Craft.".
If people would like to turn it into an Eberron specific discussion about how to handle the artificer in a system without Craft skills, bravo. If it's just a generic complaint about a weakness of the system, them why not complain on a general board?
Beyond that, the concept of the artificer as someone who makes magic items can absolutely be done in 4E. Enchant Magic Item and Disenchant both exist as rituals. It is possible for a PC to create magic items, it simply doesn't require the expenditure of XP and it's more expensive. So again, if you want to come up with a way to create an artificer class that uses the Enchant Magic item ritual in a more efficient manner than other classes, great. If this is purely generic *****ing about perceived flaws of 4E that have nothing to do with Eberron, I'd rather it was taken to a generic board.
To clarify - before someone says "Why do you care - just read another thread" - with the release of 4E in a few days, I expect people to have all sorts of opinion. Some will love it, Some will hate it. I don't want to see ACTUAL Eberron issues buried in a landslide of bitter arguments that really don't have anything to do with Eberron. If this IS an Eberron discussion - does the lack of Craft have any impact on the artificer - than let's take it there. If not - if it's just about 4E - then let's take it where it belongs and keep the board focused.
On the Eberron side of things, I can definitely see some problems with the Artificer, and a few PrC's like that tremendously neat Alchemy based one from Magic of Eberron, the name of which just utterly escaped my recollection.
The artificer was a great class, but its abilites more often then not lended themselves to abuse.
The artificer, like the cleric or druid, became more powerful with every book that came out. New spells to make items from, new items to make, and new properties to temporarily add to weapons or armor.
Use Magic Device was probably thier most important skill, so naturally they would make magic items to boost that skill. The power to make a single use wand of any low lvl spell from any class let them easily out-class the wizard or rogue in problem solving ability. Some would argue, myself included, the the artifcer was meant to be the ultimate problem solving class, but you would be suprized how few problems could not be solved with one or two spells of 1-3rd lvl. A nightmare for any DM.
Custom Items were made... and that fiendishly simple chart in the DMG led many a trusting DM to allow them.
There were other problems, but the class remained cool.
The 4e artificer will probably be far more balanced, but we will have to wait. The designers know the problems, and 4e is all about balance and fun.
If I were to make an artificer class, here is some of the features I would likely include. The class would probably be a hybrid class. I would lean towards Leader and Striker.
Proficent in Rods, Wands, Staves, Orbs, Daggers, Crossbows, and Maces.
Thier Impliment powers cannot be used without impliments.
An exclusive artficer resources similar to healing surges and action points. It would have a jazzy name. Its too late for me to think of something "sexy" so lets call them Arcane Surges. These Arcane Surges would be used to boost/ehance items or other effects. Probably something like 3 + 1/2 lvl + Int or Cha.
The artificer would ignore the normal limitations on using the Daily Powers of items. He would spend his Arcane Surges instead to activate Items. He would proababy eventually be able to use the same item over and over, but at an increased cost (2 surges for the second time, 3 for the third). He wouldn't receive the ring benefits of using them after a milestone unless he spends an extra surge.
The artificers Utility Powers would probably revolve around spending his Arcane Surges to add bonuses to the party's items. It would be tough to decide weather they would last for an encounter or just for a day. This could be simply imbuing an item with an encounter power to re-roll an attack, add a bonus, add a bonus after the die is rolled, or re-roll damage. It might even be any of those depending on the utility power they chose. I would be inclined to have that as the low level enhancement mechanic, and the higher level mechanic to actually create or enchant a one encounter magic item of thier lvl.
The artificer would probably get an Iron Defender as a Minion pet. I would probably have rules to allow the artificer to spend an Arcane Surge to negate an attack that would take out the minion.
Naturally the artficer would automatically be able to enchant and disenchant items, and to brew potions. Maaaybe able to make items that were a level above him per tier. Maaaybe allow them to occasionly make an item slightly cheaper than normal, but taking a cumulative penalty to Arcane Surges that would dampen at each milestone they reach.
As a potential Leader/Striker hybrid, thier powers would revolve around party buffs and magical blasts.
Paragon Paths might focus on Temporary Buffs, Magic Item Creation, Blasting Foes, or maybe even a Magic Item Corrupter who would apply de-buffs to enemies.
And then there would be the epic destiny, Artifact Lord.
Ok, if that isn't enough inspiration for you guys to get started, I dont know what is. WOTC, I expect a little credit when you use my amazing idea.
With the release of 4E in a few days, I expect people to have all sorts of opinion. Some will love it, Some will hate it. I don't want to see ACTUAL Eberron issues buried in a landslide of bitter arguments that really don't have anything to do with Eberron.
I share this opinion. Discussing the 4E interpretation of the warforged is great for this board - discussing the 4E interpretation of the dwarf is another story. Multiclassing. Skill challenges. Prestige classes vs. Paragon Paths. There's going to be no end of things that people want to argue about. If it's a question of "How do I convert the Cannith Wand Adept to 4E", that's one thing. If it's "How do I convert the Arcane Archer to 4E", it's another. Both perfectly valid questions, but belonging in different places.
But, assuming that the initial poster WAS actually interested in the impact on Eberron: First, I see no impact on the setting itself. The fact that no in-game skill exists to perform the action isn't meant to imply that that action cannot be performed. As others have already said, NPCs do what the story needs them to do - so you've still got the Valenar bladesmith, he just doesn't actually need skill ranks to do his job. And if you want him to be the best bladesmith in the world, he's the best bladesmith in the world. So the elf can still make bows, House Cannith still produces things, and so on.
So what about PCs? Again, looking specifically to Eberron, the clear issue is the artificer. One of the artificer class features is acquiring more Craft feats than any other character. The other is the Craft Reserve and subsequent ability to produce magic items at a lower cost than other characters.
The Craft Reserve is relatively trivial. Magic items don't cost experience now; but they still cost money. So give the artificer a GP budget that can only be spent on creating magic items. I'm not saying that's the path the 4E ECS will take, or that it's the best path to take - but if you want a swift, literal parallel to the xp-budget-only-for-magic-items, changing it from virtual xp to gp is an easy move to make. Meanwhile, you could provide the artificer with a superior version of disenchant that adds the energy directly to his craft reserve instead of turning it into residuum, and you're in business. Another option would be to, for example, let the artificer create magic items a level or two above his own - or alternately, to say that people aside from artificers create at a level BELOW their own (depending whether you want to raise the bar for the party or just make the artificer the go-to guy for normal items). Not the best solution - I'm literally making this all up as I type, as I haven't been involved in the recent work on the 4E artificer - but certainly a solvable problem.
The alchemical savant is certainly a mess, but it's trouble to begin with as a prestige class, and because potions have changed. So I'm not even going to try there.
Now, the core problem - I just want my PC to be able to make a sword, and to have a random chance involved that determines the quality of the sword he creates - remains. Personally, if I agreed that it was part of the character's background, I'd likely just let him do a skill challenge (Endurance or Athletics for the forging, Perception for imperfections, lower-DC Intelligence for the main work). But I do see that as a core system issue as opposed to an Eberron issue.