Without heavy weapons of any sort, no gunpowder or explosives or any kind, how in the hell do you stop one of these suckers? Traditional fortress siege techniques can't work because the thing is mobile. It'll just move through your siege lines, slowly but surely. And what's to stop the Brelish from applying the same technique on a smaller scale, creating the equivalent of an elementally powered armored personnel carrier (with some decent speed)? How can armies with medieval hand weapons and very light missile weapons defeat such techniques?
Without heavy weapons of any sort, no gunpowder or explosives or any kind, how in the hell do you stop one of these suckers? Traditional fortress siege techniques can't work because the thing is mobile. It'll just move through your siege lines, slowly but surely. And what's to stop the Brelish from applying the same technique on a smaller scale, creating the equivalent of an elementally powered armored personnel carrier (with some decent speed)? How can armies with medieval hand weapons and very light missile weapons defeat such techniques?
This is why Forge of War is my least favorite Eberron book: In the course of trying to be a sourcebook for the Last War, it invariably succeeds in fouling up almost everything it touches by introducing truly mind-boggling amounts of Fridge Logic. (And the fact that Cyre's the book's favorite punching bag, but that's not particularly pertinent.)
The simplest answer to this conundrum is that armies have far more at their disposal than simply swords and bows, or at least by the later stages of the Last War, at any rate. The sky's really the limit as to what one can do in terms of giving the world non-mage "heavy" weaponry: In my current game, my PCs have encountered widespread usage of alchemical grenades, up-CLed eternal wands, and elementally infused special weapon materials, as well as the odd vehicle-mounted eldritch dragonshard cannon. In other threads, arcane artillery and magical landmines have been discussed to one degree or another. An alternative interpretation is that magic replace convetional heavy weaponry: I'm not a particular fan of this interpretation, though all manner of fun can be had with it. My favorite has been instituted as a recurring detail whenever I run the setting, which is that cloudkill was an invention of middle of the Last War and a major impetus for the transformation of the way wars are waged. (This is more of a 3.5e than 4e rationale, though: A proliferation of cloudkill preparatory bombardments provides an impetus for a soldier capable of withstanding and fighting in them without protection, which poison-immune 3.5e warforged could do.)
As to the specific question of how the Darguuni forces managed to take out a floating fortress, it really depends on your imagination. My own preferred explanation was that the goblinoids couldn't have done it without Cyran help, but that's because I read a lot into the military topography of the Marguul Pass, the battle for which the floating fortress was destroyed in. Between 894 and 970 A.K., Cyre presumably created its own analogue to Sterngate to anchor the inevitable chain of fortifications created at its end of the Marguul Pass. These fortifications would need to be reduced or bypassed in order to proceed into the Darguuni heartland to Haruuc's little revolt and the Cyrans who presumably maintained them would be unlikely to allow a Brelish army to march by them peacably, so reduction is necessary. (Incidentally, fortress reduction actually provides a legitimate excuse to deploy a floating fortress, thus allowing the Brelish military who championed the expedition to not look like total idiots.)
At any rate, in due time the floating fortress would be committed to reducing the Cyran fortification belt: Such a reduction would, presumably, entail it settling down and remaining relatively immobile as a base of operations for the investing Brelish army. Once it stops moving for a prolonged period of time, all the Darguuni insurgents would need to do is blow the pass behind it to trap it and render it vulnerable to conventional besieging or whatever else they may have up their sleeves. (Up to and including simply dropping rocks on it.) True, it's not easy to blow a pass when you've got no explosives, but there's easily sufficient magic out there to do it: Where that magic may come from is another question, but my own explanation would be that it would be provided by Cyre as part of a safe passage agreement to repatriate the Cyran garrisons of the fortification belt.
I remember reading somewhere that the goblins basically lured the fortress into a canyon and boarded the sucker from above.
Yeah, I was remembering something similar.
The Brelish entered Marguul Pass, the most direct invasion route from Breland into the Darguul heartland, and the Darguuls were waiting. I can't recall whether the Darguuls disabled Veldarren's locomotion, or if poor Brelish tactics got Veldarren jammed up in rough terrain. (I know there's quite a difference between the two, and that that's the point of the OP). Once Veldarren was disabled, the Darguuls boarded and occupied it.
In the novel The Doom of Kings, the protagonists visit the (immobile) Darguul-occupied fortress it has now become.
Alternately, while Eberron has no gunpowder or explosives, "siege staves" (staves, as in the plural of staff) do exist, and these apparently have vast destructive power.
I remember reading somewhere that the goblins basically lured the fortress into a canyon and boarded the sucker from above.
So that is four people remember reading it (including me), though were I cannot remember. I remember it to be a mix of tacitcal blunders by Breland troops (most importantly underestimating the number and skill of the enemy, and not realizing that if you are in a high narrow pass it is surpprisingly easy to jump down on the fortress), and gobling brilliance (luring the enemy in a realy unfavorable situation, getting inside the fortress and disabling the floating/steering mechanism before Breland forces could recover).
In any event, considering the fortress is still in use I doubt that many siege staves were used ;) It is also really conveniently located, and a prime location for the defence of Darguun. Hence, it is unlikely that if there ever was a Cyran fortress chain here that much is left of it, but to be honest, I doubt there ever was anything big. The mountains have always been a big dangerous wilderness infested with goblins avoided by most civilized people, and the Cyre province that is now Darguun were sparsely settled. There were easier access routes into the country, and sending armies through mountains, even non-monster infested ones, have never been good idea.
The reason why I was never terribly excited about the possibility of eternal wands and siege staves is that, as wands and staves, they would require skill at magic to utilize, which necessarily limits their use to a (relatively) small pool of specialists.
In contrast, war machines (even magical ones) such as the floating fortresses or airships are potentially far more strategically significant in comparison to the rarity of personnel capable of operating them. 10 artificers piloting 10 floating fortresses are far more significant a threat than 10 artificers operating 10 siege staves, and so in my mind this still places an enormous advantage in the construction and use of these magical war machines since there are not enough heavy weapons to balance against them.
I may not be entirely clear on my point, so if my syntax is a little weird-sounding just let me know.
That said, the Battle of Marguul Pass is detailed on page 33 of The Forge of War. In the order of battle given, it does establish that the Goblins had, "a small company of sorcerers and artificers called the Hammerfists." It does not mention, but I have to wonder about, the involvement of the Silent Tribes in the final assault on Veldarren.
Anyways. To address your question, Pluisjen, Matshuc Zaal, "the Stolen Fortress", is in Marguul Pass. It isn't noted on either the fold-out map in the ECG, or the Darguun map in the ECG or ECS.
The original question was also extended to ask why the Brelish couldn't also develop the equivalent of an APC (an Armored Elemental Land Cart, perhaps?) and therefore have the means to overrun the battlefield, when the opposing side may only have a handful of magic users with which to combat them? I was expressing astonishment that the goblins could have had the firepower necessary to down an entire floating fortress.
I think this just highlights a strange sort of paradox within the Eberron setting itself whereby lots of essentially "high tech" items exist and are used extensively, but the consequences of these items on warfare aren't really taken to their logical end.
But in this case, I don't really see the utility of armored vehicles without guns. Basically, armored vehicles give you someplace safe to shoot from. In the Eberron context, it's about the same as a castle that's right were you need it to be.
Sure, you can get your army there faster, but once on the battlefield, without the guns, you still have to come out of the APC to fight.
When I am running, I try to remember that there is relitive parity. The moving castle with the arrow slits needs to contend with the swarms of locust that can be summoned into it through those slits. Or the wall that appeared in front of it. Or the fact that rolling innexorably at the undead doesn't have the same frighteneing effect that it does on living troops.
Everyone has advantages, it's what advantages you have at that particular battle that matter.
Also, "getting there quicker" is an absolutely MASSIVE advantage in a military campaign. If you're vehicles can outrun horses (either by speed or endurance, the latter might be more likely) you can literally move through your enemy's country faster than they can even react to your movement. That's true in any era, not just our modern world with our high speed victories. The successes of the Roman Army? Marching speed. Napoleonic France? Marching speed. The Mongols? Contrary to popular belief, it was not their ability to outmaneuver enemy horsemen on the battlefield, but their ability to choose the time and place of the battle because of their superior operational mobility. It's not a little thing. It's a huge factor.
That said, I'm not sure if the floating fortresses are elemental powered. The first airships took flight only 10 years ago. Anybody know when elementals were first used on Lyrander ships? I'm pretty sure the Lightning Rail was established before the Last War, though.
Thinking about it, other pieces of fluff have established that elemental groundcars (generic term for ground vehicle) were tested, but did not enter advanced development. Also, consider that miniaturization generally seems to be more difficult than initial creation; generally, its far easier to start with something big, and then make it small, than it is to make it small to begin with. I believe that is another (poorly-worded) reason why AFVs have not appeared in Eberron.
....Yet.
I'll grant you that miniaturization is probably difficult in this case, and that this is the reason why AFVs haven't appear... yet.
But I'd say it's definitely something for anyone interested in running a war campaign to think about.
I will grant you that Eberron AFVs are a development to keep an eye out for, and may make a good plot hook. Personally, though, I would go with a hundred-meter-tall 'mech powered by steam and using a combination of a bound fire elemental and a bound water elemental (or even a straight-up steam elemental).
Oh! It could be the Becoming God's body!
Then, of course, you have to worry about the lunatic wizard in his tower secrelty building a vast army with which to conquer the world...
Muahahahahahaha!!!!
Maybe a Brelish AEPC is less scary to the gobilin that is part of the Grand Darguun Behemoth Cavelry.
I guess what I didn't understand was how an elemental APC was such a game changer that any given combatant would develop those rather than seige staves. Both items have a function and could be useful, and turn the tide of battle depending on the situation.
Another point that matters is that since there is no real "industrial revolution" in Eberron, no matter how common a magic item is, it was made by hand by somebody. So it's really a matter of where each nation wants to spend their resources, because they think it will make the most difference.
Zorak, your point about Eberron being a pre-industrial society does have merit, but Jaster and I (and others) have discussed that in other threads. Sure, things have to be hand-crafted....until you bring schema into the picture. Plus, with a little creative thinking and a lot of lateral/anachronistic thinking, you can get stuff that uses Eberron sources to power modern-day or real-life stuff. My example of the mech powered by steam heated by a fire elemental and circulated with a water elemental is one example. Really, it is up to the DM exactly how much punk is in Eberron; by default, its dungeon punk, but it can easily become magicpunk or even straight-up steampunk if you really want.
I believe Queen of Stone went over this, tho I may have "remembered" extra tactics, as that would be how i'd assualt one ;)
The mech comment goes back to a point I've made in a few other threads, that the development of construct soldiers (both of the sapient variety and the merely sentient type seen in the 'Titans) would very soon (if the militaries of the Five Nations were smart) begin to outpace the development of all other weapons. Why raise an army of thousands when you can simply build millions (potentially) of mindless constructs?
The problems with this concept though are many. Firstly, the reason why Karnath brought up the dead, Eldeen employed nature, and Breland created the Warforged was for a lack of soldiers but a relative abundance of other resources. However, within regards the the Warforged there are certain limits. Crafting costs, forging time, laws, all have a part to play. Further, the other problem arises from certain individual warforged gaining free will. I wouldn't trust a soldier with an alien mindset, and neither did they, initially.
Even the dumbest construct soldier is far more intelligent than a cruise missile, and building them by the thousand to send against your enemies in gigantic huma... err, I mean construct wave attacks would be a cheap method of waging war.
Cruise missles are programmed by individuals not left to their own devices, so the analogy is moot. As for the cost, a warforged runs about 5,000gp in costs to make, let alone purchase. That number is hard to figure out exactly but there was a blurb in a book citing a Cannith Artificier with a well built forge could build a dozen warforged for the cost of a shield guardian. The guardian costing 65,000gp for spells and materials. Not to mention the 4,600xp cost. I would hesitate to call this cheap.
As for armored elemental vehicle, there were two vehicles in 3.5 that I recall being relatively small but interesting in this regard. One was a spiked gyroscopic orb of spiked stone called the "Rumbler." The other was a run of the mill wagon that was bonded to an earth elemental, and since there are elementals bound to armor, I think size isn't much of an issue. Although there might a correllation to size of the elemental and power produced.
I seem to recall an overeager commander chasing down a goblin force they believed they'd routed and following them into the Pass. In an already tight fit, bugbears and other such pushing boulders down the walls as the fortress passed, narrowing the sides and jamming opening between the fortress and the walls in the pass. Goblin troops waiting in ambush then unleashed artillery fire from above on the cliff walls, while boarding parties descended from ropes. With it's locomotion halted, and it's primary defenses designed for a ground assualt, it fell to the aerial attack and insertion.
That is pretty much exactly what I remember reading.
I believe Queen of Stone went over this, tho I may have "remembered" extra tactics, as that would be how i'd assualt one ;)
And this would be the mysterious source we all remember reading, but to which we couldn't quite put a name. I likely never would've remember it was in The Queen of Stone. I've almost reread that book a few times within the last week, but decided not to do so. I'm sure I'll go through it again sooner or later.
The mech comment goes back to a point I've made in a few other threads, that the development of construct soldiers (both of the sapient variety and the merely sentient type seen in the 'Titans) would very soon (if the militaries of the Five Nations were smart) begin to outpace the development of all other weapons. Why raise an army of thousands when you can simply build millions (potentially) of mindless constructs? Even the dumbest construct soldier is far more intelligent than a cruise missile, and building them by the thousand to send against your enemies in gigantic huma... err, I mean construct wave attacks would be a cheap method of waging war.
Then, of course, you have to worry about the lunatic wizard in his tower secrelty building a vast army with which to conquer the world...
Muahahahahahaha!!!!
The average D&D construct is nowhere near as "smart" as a guided weapon: Accurately hitting a target hundreds of miles away is no mean feat, especially when it requires active compensation for things like wind speed, atmospheric pressure, and myriad other factors. D&D constructs excel at doing exactly what they're told. It was the faultiness of run-of-the-mill constructs that precluded their widespread adoption by Jarot I: He lived long enough to see House Cannith's prototypes and, in turn, to see how easily they were circumvented due to the cumbersome nature handling them under fire. (Forge of War goes out of its way to make the point that the first Cannith military constructs could be dodged by literally stepping out of the way of their charges, in addition to the standard adventurers' plan of luring them into a pit trap.) Furthermore, armies of mindless constructs still require large numbers of human(oid) handlers, because the constructs' instructions invariably need updated once the battle is joined. (Incidentally, that's why I'd argue warforged sapience is a feature and not a bug.)
Though I think you're quite right about construct-building crowding out other weapons programs. The interesting thing is that warforged are an accretive advantage: You pay to raise a battalion of warforged, and the formation will remain in existence forever. This lends itself well to long-term force build-ups, so that the large capital costs can be defrayed over time. If you're looking for a more realpolitick-y reason why creation of warforged was prohibited by the Treaty of Thronehold, the fact that a never-ending peacetime arms race would invariably have ensued is a fairly good one.
Warforged do cost a little bit to up keep, especially if they get involved in combat. It is probably less than a human soldier, although it might be easier to get old bread and water than the rare woods and metals needed to repair a warforged. Furthermore, as was discussed earlier on these boards, the warforged are alien sapient creatures. At first they looked like the perfect weapons, but it is already clear they are not. In some areas they have become a real threat (the Lord of Blades, maybe the God of Many), and they have just the same range of emotions as humans. Nobody also knows whether they are truly eternal/immortal. I don't think any of the warforged reached the age that humans consider old, let alone dwarves and elves ;)
One other thing to keep in mind is economics and culture. In a typical D&D game there is no need to pay more than lip service to economics on the scale of nations. Who cares whether Breland has the money to buy a floating fortress if it makes a good adventure? In RL for example the juggernaut battlecruisers of early 20th century were so expensive that the governments really did not want to use them in an actual battle. I read somewhere there has been only one example of a battle with these ships, which only proved that the cost:use ratio was not in favor of their use. So I presume the same is very likely true for these fortresses, and it is also the argument for the smaller elemental vessels not being very successful. Besides the fact that they have to compete with magebred animals, they also have to compete with those very same wizards and artificers who can be just as destructive and a lot more mobile and likely cheaper. What is more, many of the elemental vessels actually require an artificer or dragonmarked member to operate at even remotely good efficiency.
Finally there is culture. Just because technology can do something does not mean society will accept or endorse it. There are dozens of examples in RL were it took decades if ever for new inventions to be put to use, and that is without taking into consideration that the Dragonmarked Houses have a monopoly and hence vested interest in many activities that would be impacted by the new inventions. They would likely control the release of many new inventions.
Of course, the real reason not to bother too much with mecha-warriors, tanks and so on is that it does not make for a typical Fantasy setting and hence is not what most people want when playing D&D. The above arguments are in the end just there as a lip-service for the suspension of disbelief and if you want a more modern warfare like environment, than who is to stop you? But that is just stating the obvious ;)
That's not why I post about it here, though. I just think it's awesome to talk about.
Warforged do cost a little bit to up keep, especially if they get involved in combat. It is probably less than a human soldier, although it might be easier to get old bread and water than the rare woods and metals needed to repair a warforged.
Although warforged upkeep was necessarily expensive in 3E, it's much cheaper than a human in 4E. In 3E, warforged could not heal naturally, which meant that they were always dependent on artificers or magewrights. At the very least someone capable of using an (Eternal or not) Wand of Cure/Repair Light Wounds/Damage had to be in the unit. Without magical healing, a wounded warforged was simply broken, and one knocked below 0 HP could stay that way for centuries.
In 4E, it's a different story. First, a warforged never fails a death saving throw because it can always take 10 in the alternative, and after enough rolls, a warforged will get a 20 and be able to spend a surge, if it's got one. With warforged resolve, a soldier can always heal himself up to at least a point over being bloodied. In the worst-case scenario, a warforged left unconscious on the field with no surges left will benefit from an extended rest in no more than 24 hours.
In other words, warforged have gone from a "broken protocol droid" model to a "Terminator" model of durability and upkeep.
Of course, the real reason not to bother too much with mecha-warriors, tanks and so on is that it does not make for a typical Fantasy setting and hence is not what most people want when playing D&D. The above arguments are in the end just there as a lip-service for the suspension of disbelief and if you want a more modern warfare like environment, than who is to stop you? But that is just stating the obvious ;)
I think that's basically right, but something like a mechsuit isn't too crazy for Eberron. In fact, they could be a pretty logical conclusion.
Every nation expects another war to come along, so nations would love to have more warforged soldiers, but the Treaty stops Cannith from making any more of them. But what's to stop them from making something that can do the job? Magical armor that enhances the wearer's abilities already exists. The major benefits of warforged are that they intelligent, durable, and relatively cheap (in 3E, they were only about 5 times the price of basic magical armor).
A soldier in magic armor is intelligent and durable. All that's missing is the low price. I don't see anything stopping Cannith from finding a way to lower the cost of a suit of armor. A lot of Eberron materials note that it took time to Cannith to bring intelligence to constructs. At first they were all INT - golems, but then they eventually got to animal-like intelligence before getting to warforged. It's easy to imagine that Cannith could make an animalistic construct more easily than one with full human intelligence.
In fact, the homunculus monsters are a great fit for this. In 3E, these things were cheap, usually just a couple hundred GP. That's because killing them harmed the creator. Why not have the same principle work in 4E? You could have homunculus armor, a dim but loyal creature bound to protect and mentally obey they creature it caries within it. If it's destroyed, the wearer suffers somewhat as well.
It could be represented as a monster pretty easily: write up a soldier or skirmisher creature, that, upon death, ejects a humanoid soldier.
Of course, it all boils down to mobility. Khorvaire had two moving fortresses, and the goblin took over one of them with little trouble (The Battle or Marguul Pass), while the other (Argonth) surveys the Brelish coast, but let's think about this: The only fortress they used in combat did no good. It's certainly cool, but it has to be used correctly, and the Brelish did not used their wepaon correctly.
That said, mechanical monsters, be they actual monsters or humanoids controlling them, can definitely work. In fact, I'm trying to integrate them in my own setting. To be honest, though, nothing beats fighting a humanoid enemy.
Khorvaire had two moving fortresses, and the goblin took over one of them with little trouble (The Battle or Marguul Pass), while the other (Argonth) surveys the Brelish coast, but let's think about this: The only fortress they used in combat did no good. It's certainly cool, but it has to be used correctly, and the Brelish did not used their wepaon correctly.
The Five Nations certainly, from time to time, fell prey to their own military-industrial-complexes. In the middle of a war, a gigantic flying castle seems awesome, and you can just hear the king's court saying things like, "Sire, not only will be able to move men without horses, but its construction will create hundreds of jobs! Not only that, but House Cannith has offered us a 10% discount on the next 1,000 warforged we order if they get the contract." With Kundarak issuing so many loans, it was easy for nations to make unnecessary or inefficient military expenditures. It would probably have been better to buy more mundane materials.
Of course, it's also possible that some nations, like Breland, had more money than they could spend on what they wanted. What does Breland do with 10 million GP when the creation forges are already working at full capacity? Why, buy gigantic hovering castles, of course!
1. Because of the weird economics of magic, price is based on effect, rather than on material needed to produce something, so a large flying carpet 60K Drow airskiff 80K and an elemental airship 100k are in the same ballpark. So there is no real incentive to follow one school of magic over another.
2. Items of signifigant power tend to need to be wielded by individuals of signifigant power. It raises the cost of magic if it can be used by everyone.
3. Almost any magical advantage, can be countered by a different magical advantage.
4. All of the major players have a similar resource pool, and can impliment some sort of "game changing" magical support.
These four things lead me to the way in which Eberron warfare is the most like modern warfare:
INFORMATION is what wins battles more than any other factor.
The Brelish floating fortress is a powerful asset, as are gryphon cavelry, or siege staves or wizards. The general that knows what and where the enemies assets are can plan to counter them, while the general that doesn't know what he is facing has to prepare for just about anything. This delutes what the uninformed general can bring to bear.
Once you have the beter intelegence, it's just a matter of the logistics of bringing the apropriate forces to bear on the enemy... how hard could that be?
Although warforged upkeep was necessarily expensive in 3E, it's much cheaper than a human in 4E. In 3E, warforged could not heal naturally, which meant that they were always dependent on artificers or magewrights. At the very least someone capable of using an (Eternal or not) Wand of Cure/Repair Light Wounds/Damage had to be in the unit. Without magical healing, a wounded warforged was simply broken, and one knocked below 0 HP could stay that way for centuries.
In 4E, it's a different story. First, a warforged never fails a death saving throw because it can always take 10 in the alternative, and after enough rolls, a warforged will get a 20 and be able to spend a surge, if it's got one. With warforged resolve, a soldier can always heal himself up to at least a point over being bloodied. In the worst-case scenario, a warforged left unconscious on the field with no surges left will benefit from an extended rest in no more than 24 hours.
I would be careful about applying 4E healing rules for PCs to how NPCs function. In 4E one of the core philosophies is that the rules of the PCs do NOT necessarily apply to the NPCs. For example, NPCs have only 1 healing surge (at heroic tier anyway), and they cannot spend second wind. In 4E the designers also purposely stepped away from bothering with the minutea of upkeep for the PCs. It is simply assumed the PCs earn enough gold for basic upkeep. In short, upkeep for warforged armies is left entirely up to the DM and the PC rules should not automatically be applied to them.
As for war being relatively primitive in the typical fantasy story/setting, that is most likely the result of those stories mostly focussing on adventurers: small groups of elite *much* more skilled and poweful than 95% of the population. Those kind of groups rarely work well in actual battles, and to increase their influence on the actual battlefield you also need to change a few things to make it "believable"* to the average reader/player that they do have a direct impact on the battle.
* Not necessarily realistic, but realistic enough for people to suspend their disbelief, and as far as warfare goes, how many people know more than the basics about warfare and its history in RL?
I would be careful about applying 4E healing rules for PCs to how NPCs function. In 4E one of the core philosophies is that the rules of the PCs do NOT necessarily apply to the NPCs. For example, NPCs have only 1 healing surge (at heroic tier anyway), and they cannot spend second wind. In 4E the designers also purposely stepped away from bothering with the minutea of upkeep for the PCs. It is simply assumed the PCs earn enough gold for basic upkeep. In short, upkeep for warforged armies is left entirely up to the DM and the PC rules should not automatically be applied to them.
As for war being relatively primitive in the typical fantasy story/setting, that is most likely the result of those stories mostly focussing on adventurers: small groups of elite *much* more skilled and poweful than 95% of the population. Those kind of groups rarely work well in actual battles, and to increase their influence on the actual battlefield you also need to change a few things to make it "believable"* to the average reader/player that they do have a direct impact on the battle.
And that's why I usually reserve these discussions for Eberron, since Eberron is a magic-rich setting and there is a prevalence of low level magic that makes certain wonderous feats (analogous to modern technology) possible and even pervasive to some extent. In other words, the only reason why your average person may never even see an airship is more because airships are expensive, and Khorvaire hasn't reached a certain level of economic development, rather than that they are truly miraculous.
I could see a time in the "future" of Khorvaire where economic growth and interdependence between the Five Nations (barring a resumption of the Last War, which is probably a given) creates a circumstance where everyone has access to Sivis communication technology, everyone gets most of their goods via Orien and Lyrander shipping, and where air and rail travel are quite common and even everyday things.
* Not necessarily realistic, but realistic enough for people to suspend their disbelief, and as far as warfare goes, how many people know more than the basics about warfare and its history in RL?
I believe the word you're searching for here is verisimilitude, not realism.
And that's why I usually reserve these discussions for Eberron, since Eberron is a magic-rich setting and there is a prevalence of low level magic that makes certain wonderous feats (analogous to modern technology) possible and even pervasive to some extent. In other words, the only reason why your average person may never even see an airship is more because airships are expensive, and Khorvaire hasn't reached a certain level of economic development, rather than that they are truly miraculous.
I agree, but only up to a point. Personally I always cringe when the DM starts treating the magic of Eberron as just an other type of modern RL technology. I don't mind the magic elevators of Sharn, the flying ships or the lightning rail, but the idea of washing machines, telephones and guns does not sit well with me. If I wanted those I would be playing Shadow Run ;)
A warning, though: TVTropes might even be more addictive than Wikipedia: xkcd.com/609/
But, essentially, my argument is that generally, authors don't think about how magic would change the world. This is why I have such a low opinion of the Realms; it may be undeserved, but to my knowledge, FR is a medieval society with magic slathered on top and little care for the socioeconomic ramifications of magic. Eberron, however, does take the step of factoring in the socioeconomic ramifications of magic. Jaster, I think your problem (and mine, too) is that we see how much further, and how much cooler, Eberron could be, but the authors do not see what we see.
I agree, but only up to a point. Personally I always cringe when the DM starts treating the magic of Eberron as just an other type of modern RL technology. I don't mind the magic elevators of Sharn, the flying ships or the lightning rail, but the idea of washing machines, telephones and guns does not sit well with me. If I wanted those I would be playing Shadow Run ;)
That's why I said analogous, not identical. That means it performs the same function in society, not that they have magical cars and magical stoves. Magic has replaced technology in Eberron. I would argue that this actually turns it into an alternative form of technology.
While some devices would appear similar to their real world equivalents (coughlightningrailcough), this is more a result of being unable to imagine another form to the device. For example, an Elemental Land Cart probably looks like an automobile, but this wouldn't be because of a conscious immitation of automobiles on the part of the author (necessarily), only because it's difficult to imagine a land-based method of locomotion that is not a draft animal, that you sit in or on, and which moves under it's own power along roads that doesn't look like that. The same goes for lots of other magical devices that might exist in Eberron.
Jaster, concerning your irritations with most depictions of medieval warfare falling far short, well, I have to cite TVTropes on this. Granted, there doesn't seem to be an actual article on this, but I believe it would be a combination of Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale and Did Not Do The Research
A warning, though: TVTropes might even be more addictive than Wikipedia: xkcd.com/609/
For the love of all that is holy, why in the world would you link me to TvTropes? I might get lost in the Abyss, for surely the demonic hordes reside there.
But, essentially, my argument is that generally, authors don't think about how magic would change the world. This is why I have such a low opinion of the Realms; it may be undeserved, but to my knowledge, FR is a medieval society with magic slathered on top and little care for the socioeconomic ramifications of magic. Eberron, however, does take the step of factoring in the socioeconomic ramifications of magic. Jaster, I think your problem (and mine, too) is that we see how much further, and how much cooler, Eberron could be, but the authors do not see what we see.
This, exactly. I have the same problem with the Realms, and ironically the same disappointment with Eberron (all the more because it comes so close). I never really played D&D in order to escape into mythic fantasy (I honestly think, even though it's horror, the World of Darkness does it better. That's just me, though), but rather to explore utopian (or dystopian) themes. In fact, I rather treat D&D more like most people treat science fiction*.
*Without all of the baggage that comes with science fiction authors who essentially write fantasy but feel the need to claim that the technology and societies they write about are "realistic" (when they are clearly a 1 or 2 on the Scale of Sci-Fi Hardness).
I agree, but only up to a point. Personally I always cringe when the DM starts treating the magic of Eberron as just an other type of modern RL technology. I don't mind the magic elevators of Sharn, the flying ships or the lightning rail, but the idea of washing machines, telephones and guns does not sit well with me. If I wanted those I would be playing Shadow Run ;)
That's why I said analogous, not identical. That means it performs the same function in society, not that they have magical cars and magical stoves. Magic has replaced technology in Eberron. I would argue that this actually turns it into an alternative form of technology.
The difference between analogous and identical are really just semetics when dealing with the effects such things have on society. After all, it is the function that influences society ;)
I know that magic has replaced technology in Eberron (up to a point anyway), and it certainly much more integrated into the setting then in settings like the Forgotten Realms (although you do it a bit of a disservice to call it 'medieval' or to say that magic has no influence on society, it is just that magic is much rarer and much less predictable than technology in RL or magic in Eberron). I just want to keep its impact the same as during the early industrialization in Europe. I also want to keep magic a bit less predictable and mundane then technology is in real life. Like I said, otherwise I would be playing Shadow Run or the Dark World from Storytell system.
In 4E the designers also purposely stepped away from bothering with the minutea of upkeep for the PCs. It is simply assumed the PCs earn enough gold for basic upkeep. In short, upkeep for warforged armies is left entirely up to the DM and the PC rules should not automatically be applied to them.
Nor should they be automatically dismissed. Take a look at the warforged monster entries. Those written before the EPG usually have only the (similar) ability to gain temps as an encounter power, while those written afterwards usually have the same ability as the PC race. In other words, this trait appears to be standard for the race. I understand the philosophy that NPCs don't operate like PCs in every way, but I think it's reasonable to consider how a trait persistent across a race might affect how that race behaves.
I just had the thought that, even if they are not proficient at warfighting (for the reason that the dumbest ones possess little or no capability for independent action), armies could have a long train of constructs for manual labor purposes. Because they are tireless, the construction of field fortifications would be able to be accomplished on a scale and at speeds unheard of for a pre-modern army.
Anyone who is familiar with Roman warfare, and their field fortifications, can probably see the potential ramifications of this when taken to logical extremes. Just a thought. Discuss.
Also, don't forget that field fortifications aren't just defensive. It would be handy to work on siegeworks around the clock with tireless troops.
One thing to keep in mind is that the usefulness of warforged as a labor force depends entirely upon how cheap human labor is. There are more than enough examples in RL where human life is so cheap that it hardly matters they would die by the dozen even if their were reasonably readibly available alternatives. Mind you, considering the Last War, I suspect the humanoid labor force is relatively low right now, so I am sure that it is relatively expensive. On the other hand, it were among other reasons the concerns about the labour force that made creating warforged illegal.
Another problem I have with the objections to these ideas comes from the idea that there are only two types of constructs, which are A) Completely dumb, requiring instructions just to move and B) Human-equivalent sapience (Warforged). If these things were developed (as the source material repeatedly states) over a span of years or even decades, there would have to be a continuum of increasing intelligence in the constructs until modern Warforged were reached. So, objections about how intelligent constructs are, while valid in the immediate aftermath of their initial development, don't hold once you have a history of several generations of the technology to work with.
Cost is also a valid argument, but it is highly dependent on exactly how big is the economy of Khorvaire. It's kind of frustrating that the same folks who will say "but it's too expensive!" will immediately thereafter refuse to throw around any ideas about just how big is the Khorvairian economy.
I don't know if construct intelligence would necessarily increase at a constant rate. To my knowledge, several advances in computer technology have resulted in massive jumps in efficiency or computing power. Don't ask me what, though, because I don't know. That's just my impression.
I have to get driving to Rhode Island, so I'll keep this short.
I don't know if construct intelligence would necessarily increase at a constant rate. To my knowledge, several advances in computer technology have resulted in massive jumps in efficiency or computing power. Don't ask me what, though, because I don't know. That's just my impression.
While that's true, there is still a progression (instead of a steady slope, it's a series of ridges). If everyone remembers, Warforged Titans weren't completely dumb constructs that required instructions for their every movement. So, clearly, the development cycle didn't jump from puppets to Warforged.
One though I had for an Eberron game was to have such a construct built during the Last War by a creator who has since died. Without new orders, the creature continues to carry out its wartime instructions. For instance, the Nimble, its last orders being to "Assassinate Karrnathi warlords" would still be doing so.
Another approach I particularly like is to have constructs obeying Cyran instructions that no longer make sense, such as, "Destroy the goblin squad and report to your commander," who has since been destroyed by the Mourning. The construct wanders the continent to find a solution to the problem. It seeks out Jorasco healing, necromancy, or prophecy as a way to contact it's old commander. Another might have orders merely to "Protect Cyre," and lost its mind as a result of the nation's destruction; it now thinks the only way to protect Cyre is to capture Cyrans and ... adapt them to survive in the Mournland.
I get the feeling that all of the mentions in novels or sourcebooks about instances where people tried to use constructs in new ways, but failed, are generally author fiat in order to avoid the logical extremes I'm talking about (specifically). It's not an inherent flaw in the notion of using constructs in these ways, it's an answer (even if anticipatory) to those notions in order to justify why these particular phenomena don't exist.
In the few novels I read where this was discussed they were specifically talking about low-intelligent stuff (in my example nearly mindless undead). If you look at RL the typical commercial viable robots work on mindless jobs that do the one same thing on and on. They are definitely good at that, and likely better than sapient creatures if only because they never get bored ;) In any event, I was not arguing that constructs could not be used for the stuff you mentioned, I said that it depends a bit on their intelligence and capability for independend thought. Since that is entirely dependend on the DM, you can adapt based on the needs of the campaign.
In the few novels I read where this was discussed they were specifically talking about low-intelligent stuff (in my example nearly mindless undead). If you look at RL the typical commercial viable robots work on mindless jobs that do the one same thing on and on. They are definitely good at that, and likely better than sapient creatures if only because they never get bored ;) In any event, I was not arguing that constructs could not be used for the stuff you mentioned, I said that it depends a bit on their intelligence and capability for independend thought. Since that is entirely dependend on the DM, you can adapt based on the needs of the campaign.
And I definitely will! I don't really feel threatend in my ability as DM to do as I please; I just enjoy discussing the possibilities (I also get some interesting ideas from the discussion). Please don't mistake my vigour with hostility (sometimes I think I come off that way).
In any case, not that I have abandoned the use of constructs altogether, but I have realized recently that in a society with lots of magic, it would eventually evolve into a curse/countercurse affair. The closest analogy to this I can think of in RL is Information Warfare (basically, creating events through the use of magic that affect the way the population of the target country views the world; magical propoganda, I suppose).
I mean construct wave attacks would be a cheap method of waging war.
Actually that's the point: They are not cheap. If a single human-sized construct costs as much as training, equipping and feeding/housing 100 human troops for years, it's no longer a cheap method
Actually that's the point: They are not cheap. If a single human-sized construct costs as much as training, equipping and feeding/housing 100 human troops for years, it's no longer a cheap method
Actually, it's far cheaper than doing that. I think someone earlier in this thread figured out the cost of a single Warforged trooper was something like 5,000gp, total. I depends on exactly what 5,000gp will buy you, but I'm willing to bet that is significantly cheaper than training, feeding, equipping, and lodging even a single soldier of equivalent skill for years. You only have to drop that gold once for a Warforged.
Again, though, as I've said repeatedly it matters just how large the economy of a single one of the Five Nations actually is; to put it simply, how much stuff can you buy with 5,000gp?
Compare to the standard human Warrior 1 that you can turn a peasant into after training. The warrior is probably much cheaper, particularly since you aren't having to pay the entire cost of years of service up front. Indeed, its likely that armies bear in mind that not every warrior is going to last years when doing their budgets.
Depends what you mean by equivalent skill. Warforged are far superior in warfare to an equivalent human simply due to their nature, even when you are talking about the elite 2nd-3rd level fighters equivalent to what warforged start out as.
Compare to the standard human Warrior 1 that you can turn a peasant into after training. The warrior is probably much cheaper, particularly since you aren't having to pay the entire cost of years of service up front. Indeed, its likely that armies bear in mind that not every warrior is going to last years when doing their budgets.
I'll give you that my statement assumes a constant state of war into the foreseeable future, and that the expectation that the Warforged won't be necessary after a certain point (and therefore will not be needed for warfighting) would increase it's relative cost dramatically.
I.e., if you pay for a warforged and it's the equivalent of the total cost of upkeep for a single soldier for 10 years, but the war only lasts 5, then it's not worth it. If, however, the war then lasts 20 years it becomes a significantly cheaper investment.
While this whole argument would be sound on a cas-by-case basis, it definitely does not refute the concept in principle that construct soldiers would tend to be cheaper over time, among other (obvious) advantages.
Actually that's the point: They are not cheap. If a single human-sized construct costs as much as training, equipping and feeding/housing 100 human troops for years, it's no longer a cheap method
Actually, it's far cheaper than doing that. I think someone earlier in this thread figured out the cost of a single Warforged trooper was something like 5,000gp, total. I depends on exactly what 5,000gp will buy you, but I'm willing to bet that is significantly cheaper than training, feeding, equipping, and lodging even a single soldier of equivalent skill for years. You only have to drop that gold once for a Warforged.
Again, though, as I've said repeatedly it matters just how large the economy of a single one of the Five Nations actually is; to put it simply, how much stuff can you buy with 5,000gp?
Not at all. 5,000 is freakingly expensive. Don't look through the lense of player character's wealth.
We're talking about 1st level warriors (as a standard warforged is also only CR 1/2, just like them).
You can equip them roman legion style for less than 100gp (scale mail, heavy wooden shield, dagger, short sword and some spears) and then you just have their wage.
E.g. the cost for mercenary is 3sp per day, so ~110gp a year.
So assuming 100gp equipment amd 110gp wage per year you get 24 soldiers for one year for the costs of just one warforged.
After initially equipping them, you can maintain 45 human soldiers for the cost of one warforged (and assuming the later truly has 0 costs to maintain).
While warforged certainly have other advantages (like not tiring, don't needing a supply train for food, ....) 25 soldiers are much better at controlling an area than one warforged (especially if it is killed just as easily as a single human soldier)
Main point is them not really being any stronger than your human soldier. If you just let them linger in the barracks as your standing army, the warforged may become eventually cheaper over long enough time. However if you ever have to replace loses from the battlefield, then your state treasury is better very deep. If a battle costs kingdom A 1,000 human soldiers and kingdom B better doesn't lose more than 42 of it's warforged (and since they aren't inherently superior on the battlefield, that's very unlikely and the replacement humans are calculated with their yearly costs, replacing them would actually be much cheaper).
While no doubt they would have been used in large battles, most of their advantages in warfare would have come from their superior mobility.
I was actually under the impression that warforged came out of their training and were sold as relatively elite units: Generally level 2 fighters.
While no doubt they would have been used in large battles, most of their advantages in warfare would have come from their superior mobility.
Well, the thing is, warforged were usually kept in seperate units, not so much elite ones. I wouldn't be shocked if they had a level in fighter, maybe two, with the lieutenants having 4, and commanders having 7 or 8, I suppose.
In terms of mobility, I almost think, since Thrane and Karrnath look at them more as property, they were probably used on the front lines as expendable soldiers instead of mobile shock troops. You might be right, but I think they were probably stuck on the front.
Superior (operational) mobility, certainly. However, part of that (operational) mobility is due to a far lighter logistical requirement. A lower logistical requirement is invaluable in and of itself. Plus, yes, they are better trained (and probably equipped) than most infantry.
That's kind of what I was getting at by saying they were cheaper. People usually fail to factor in all of the expense of supporting even one soldier. It's not just his weapons and other personal gear, it's the food he needs to eat, the water he needs to drink, the carts to carry it, the beasts of burden needed to pull those, the harness and other gear needed for those beasts of burden (perhaps you need a whole other series of carts just to carry the tools and material necessary to build a temporary stable to house them), and the food needed for those beasts of burden, all of which requires an ever longer supply train carrying all of the supplies needed to supply the suppliers. Whew!
The cost could grow dramatically from that, even if it appears as if it only costs a few hundred gp to equip an individual soldier. Not to mention that fact that Warforged don't take 15-20 years to reach maturity, and so losing even thousands of them at once isn't going to have the strategic impact on you that the loss of thousands of young men will.
Note that if I look at the numbers mentioned above, a country is best off to have both. A standing army with a core of warforged and auxillery of normal human militia in case of war and to control conquerred territories.
People usually fail to factor in all of the expense of supporting even one soldier. It's not just his weapons and other personal gear, it's the food he needs to eat, the water he needs to drink,
Which is covered by his 3sp per day. Actually if you really have a standing army, the payment would likely be less than 3sp in cash because of the free food.
Sure, you need to build some barracks, but that's a fixed cost per X hundred soldiers. And with warforged you have to build factories to mass produce them.
the carts to carry it, the beasts of burden needed to pull those, the harness and other gear needed for those beasts of burden (perhaps you need a whole other series of carts just to carry the tools and material necessary to build a temporary stable to house them), and the food needed for those beasts of burden, all of which requires an ever longer supply train carrying all of the supplies needed to supply the suppliers. Whew!
Sure, the costs to maintain them in the field might be higher, but that's nothing to the costs of having to replace a single warfored destroyed in action.
People usually fail to factory how freaking much a single gold piece actually is. Copper and silver exist for a reason and it's not to bother PCs with having to haul in their loot in cumbersone change. Most NPC never see (forget about owning) a single gp in their entire life.
A soldier with 3sp a day is already receiving a very high wage.
P r e t t y sure that the 3sp/day is pay, and doesn't include supplies. Was that in that list in the 3e DMG? Alongside scribe and butler and whatnot?
You pay them 3sp and with that they have to buy what they need for themselves. If you also provide them with food and other stuff, that should impact the cash you pay them.
Annother example of the value of a single gp is the bridge/gate toll service: Once copper piece! Government don't set up manned checkpoints to collect 1 cp from each traveller because they just want to irritate them. 1 cp is real money for them
And like said before: Just housing them as your standing army might be cheaper in the medium/long run with warforged instead of ordinary soldiers. And warforged would indead be cheaper and more mobile on the field. However all advantages evaporate in face of having to replace a squad of destroyed warforged vs. a squad of killed soldiers. And we're talking about orders of magnitude that the former is more expensive than the second.
1,000 warforged killed in action? That's 5,000,000 gp please.
1,000 soldiers killed in action? Well, guess that's less than 12,000 to replace them (with 10,000 just being the equipment)
And like said before: Just housing them as your standing army might be cheaper in the medium/long run with warforged instead of ordinary soldiers. And warforged would indead be cheaper and more mobile on the field. However all advantages evaporate in face of having to replace a squad of destroyed warforged vs. a squad of killed soldiers. And we're talking about orders of magnitude that the former is more expensive than the second.1,000 warforged killed in action? That's 5,000,000 gp please.
1,000 soldiers killed in action? Well, guess that's less than 12,000 to replace them (with 10,000 just being the equipment.
Whether it's worse to lose a squad of warforged or a squad of human soldiers is entirely dependent on how large your population is, and how long the war lasts. Attrition isn't going to hurt you as much if you lose thousands of Warforged. More can be built. If you lose thousands of men, sure, the immediate cost to replace them isn't much. But if you're engaged in a long struggle (let's say 100 years, for example), then demographics actually becomes an issue. At a certain point, you simply run out of men.
A human takes 15-20 years to mature into a condition that is suitable for use as a soldier. How long does a single Warforged take to construct? A couple of days, maybe? A week? In order for them to have been useful as weapons, it must have been fast (we know this, because they were used). You're not factoring in the total cost, still, of raising a human being to maturity and then equipping them as an army. It's immense.
Don't just factor in all of the cost they incur when they are in uniform, factor in the cost over their entire lifetime that they incur on society as a whole. And during the majority of that time, they are useless as soldiers. A 20 year old man can't be useful in warfare for a full 75% of his life up to that point. A Warforged takes what, a a few weeks to train to combat readiness? If you're thinking about this in total war terms (which I must admit has been my starting point from the beginning), then construct soldiers just make so much more sense on every level, once you're able to produce them.
Note btw that in the whole calculations we assume the costs for the forges have been taken care off. In reality that might actually be rediculously expensive. So for an Eberron nation to restart using warforged means a significant innitial investment, which they might never earn back unless the next war lasts another 100 years.
But if you're engaged in a long struggle (let's say 100 years, for example), then demographics actually becomes an issue. At a certain point, you simply run out of men.
Long before that you did already run out of money.
5,000gp!!!!
Governments thinking that 1 cp is worth enough to maintain toll stations.
Well, given the fact that Kundarak functions as a centralized banking power, and, by virtue of letter of credits, can give out fiat currency.....well....Eberron's economic system is far more modern than the one in the 3e PHB. Khorvairian nations have national debts, deficit spending, etc.
Yeah, but small bits of text in official material seem to hint that Kundarak was quite happy with the break in warfare, because the amount of debts was reaching a point were even Kundarak had an issue with it. So it might be more modern than 3E, even it has its limitations.
Hmm. I wonder if the next step in Kundarak's plan, or perhaps the Aurum, will be to issue paper currency?
Oh, certainly granted. Its just that Kundarak has the ability, and has displayed the ability, to issue more money then they actually have.
Hmm. I wonder if the next step in Kundarak's plan, or perhaps the Aurum, will be to issue paper currency?
Aren't letters of credit already a form of paper currency? Certainly how our paper currency started out iirc.
Aren't letters of credit already a form of paper currency? Certainly how our paper currency started out iirc.
A form, yes, but when I say, "paper currency," i mean currency with fixed denominations. I figure a letter of credit is essentially being able to draw from your checking account.
Aren't letters of credit already a form of paper currency? Certainly how our paper currency started out iirc.
A form, yes, but when I say, "paper currency," i mean currency with fixed denominations. I figure a letter of credit is essentially being able to draw from your checking account.
Ah, good point. Though aren't Kundarak letters of credit payable to bearer? Only the fixed denomination is missing in that case.
Aren't letters of credit already a form of paper currency? Certainly how our paper currency started out iirc.
A form, yes, but when I say, "paper currency," i mean currency with fixed denominations. I figure a letter of credit is essentially being able to draw from your checking account.
Ah, good point. Though aren't Kundarak letters of credit payable to bearer? Only the fixed denomination is missing in that case.
They're a fixed denomination that is updated when you withdraw from the account. So, its really like a debit card.
Long before that you did already run out of money.5,000gp!!!!
Governments thinking that 1 cp is worth enough to maintain toll stations.
Given what Ogiwan said about Kundarak letters of credit, running out of money isn't a problem. Besides, total wars (I am assuming that the Last War fits this model; I could be wrong) don't end because the financial system can no longer bear it; the financial system changes to accomodate the continuing hostilities. Many innovations in finance occurred specifically to address shortages in money during wartime, where the belligerents required new means to fund their armies.
Total wars end when one side becomes completely materially and demographically exhausted, unless some other factor intervenes (in this case, the Mourning). While no nation other than Cyre was debellated during the Last War (and in this case, Cyre was annihilated not occupied), there is no telling what the limits of endurance are for any one of the Five Nations. The point I was trying to make is that constructs are a superior long term investment because once you build them, they do not need to be continually resupplied (thus using up more resources; a human soldier doesn't finish consuming once he completes his training). And if you lose many of them, they can be replaced very, very quickly. If a human soldier is lost, it requires a lot more on the part of society to replace that individual soldier. Stop looking at checkbooks, and start looking at the maternity ward in your local hospital.
For example, let's say battles in Eberron were particularly bloody affairs (let's say about as bloody as WWI, as it is often compared to that, but even the Punic Wars might suffice). What happens if a nation loses the entire 15-25 year old demographic in a year's time? Guess how long it will take that nation to replace that demographic? 15-25 years. If he loses a comparable number of warforged? Depending on the natural resources available within his borders, and exactly what is required to build a warforged, he might be able to replace those numbers in a couple of weeks, months at most. That represents a significant advantage in a war of attrition. Note that last part.
We know that certain nations were reaching the limits of their endurance near the end, because there is no other reason for the Karrnathi use of undead or the heavy Cyran use of warforged. All you have to do is look at the official history to know that the warforged actually represent a revolution in warfare on Khorvaire, since they were adopted as soon as they became practical and it allowed a nation like Cyre (beset on all sides by enemies) to last longer than their natural (i.e., human) limits would have carried them.
Deny it all you want, but there are good reasons why artificial systems quickly replace human beings even in situations where humans would be tactically or operationally more sophisticated. The low cost over the long term is what makes constructs attractive in the first place.
Let us assume that, in the late-Last War period, a combatant nation wishes to raise a new infantry battalion. An infantry battalion for the combatant nation consists of 480 men, divided into four companies of 120 men, which are in turn broken down into four platoons of 30 men each. The battalion will be assumed to have an operational life of at least ten years, to be manned by enlisted men serving two-year terms and officers serving five-year terms, with one officer for every nineteen enlisted men.
The following assumptions will be stipulated to:
--The direct monetary cost of maintaining an enlisted footman is 1gp/day. The indirect monetary cost of maintaining the same is 5sp/day. The cost of foregone economic activity for an enlisted footman is 1gp/day. The cost of outfitting an enlisted footman with the tools required to fight is 70gp.
--The direct monetary cost of maintaining an officer of foot is 5gp/day. The indirect monetary cost of maintaining the same is 5gp/day. The cost of the foregone economic activity for an officer of foot is 3gp/day. The cost of outfitting an officer of foot with the tools required to fight is 325gp.
--The direct monetary cost of maintaining a warforged is 1.5cp/day. There indirect monetary cost of maintaining the same is 1sp/day. There is no foregone economic activity in maintaining a warforged. The cost of creating and outfitting a warforged to fight is 5,020gp.
For the above assumptions, a "direct" monetary cost is one which is directly attributable to a particular soldier: Food, water, board, provisioning, maintenance of personally controlled kit and animals, and the like. "Indirect" monetary costs are those which are borne to maintain the soldier but are not directly attributable to him: Costs of maintaining the logistics train, smithies, barracks, roads, and a thousand other bits of minutea that keep the men at the front in fighting trim. Foregone economic activity should be self-explanatory.
The immediate cost of raising an all-human battalion, consisting of 24 officers and 456 enlisted men would be 39,720gp. The immediate cost of raising a similar formation with human officers and warforged enlisted men would be 2,296,920gp. The yearly upkeep, in direct, indirect, and foregone economic costs, of the all-human battalion is 529,880gp. The yearly upkeep, in direct, indirect, and foregone economic costs, of the warforged battalion is 133,021gp.
With those numbers in mind, and with the above stipulated numerical values, let us examine the a year-to-year study of the costs of maintaining a warforged and a human version of the battalion:
Year 1
All-Human: 569,600gp
Warforged: 2,429,941gp
Year 2
All-Human: 1,099,480gp
Warforged: 2,562,962gp
Year 3
All-Human: 1,661,280gp
Warforged: 2,695,983gp
Year 4
All-Human: 2,191,160gp
Warforged: 2,829,004gp
Year 5
All-Human: 2,752,960gp
Warforged: 2,962,025gp
Year 6
All-Human: 3,290,640gp
Warforged: 3,102,846gp
Year 7
All-Human: 3,852,440gp
Warforged: 3,235,867gp
Year 8
All-Human: 4,382,320gp
Warforged: 3,368,888gp
Year 9
All-Human: 4,944,170gp
Warforged: 3,501,909gp
Year 10
All-Human: 5,474,050gp
Warforged: 3,634,930gp
Over the minimum lifetime of the battalion, the cost of a formation of warforged led by human officiers costs roughly a third less than a comparable formation composed entirely of humans. While the ramp-up costs are sizable, they are not necessarily as sizable as one might abstractly envision, with parity between the two being reached during the fifth year of maintaining the formation. Or, as was said by myself months ago and JasterMereel more recently, warforged are more cost-effective the longer one envisions utilizing them.
Also, I wonder if repairing a warforged is cheaper than raising/conscripting/whatever and training a human soldier.
What, exactly is, "forgone economic activity"?
Also, I wonder if repairing a warforged is cheaper than raising/conscripting/whatever and training a human soldier.
I believe "forgone economic activity" would be the productive capacity of that individual in some other area vital to society or the war effort. For instance, someone who becomes a soldier cannot also work in a factory manufacturing arms.
As to whether repairing a warforged is cheaper than raising/conscripting/whatever and training a human soldier, I suppose that's one of those areas where you have a great deal of freedom to decide whether warforged were used extensively; in other words, it's probably whatever you want it to be.
Personally I'd say it's cheaper, since the warforged were used in large numbers and their superiority on the battlefield over humans isn't great enough to consider them a "superweapon" or anything like that. So, the only conceivable advantage is logistical in nature, which includes repair/conscription. But I'm working backward rather than forward with that conclusion.
Personally I'd say it's cheaper, since the warforged were used in large numbers and their superiority on the battlefield over humans isn't great enough to consider them a "superweapon" or anything like that. So, the only conceivable advantage is logistical in nature, which includes repair/conscription. But I'm working backward rather than forward with that conclusion.
That's more-or-less what I've come up with, save for the fact that I do think that Warforged are superior to normal humanoid troops. Not enough to be a superweapon, but certainly enough to justify employing them.
Hmm. I wonder if that initial start-up time/cost is why large units of 'forged were used....
Jaster, you make a lot of good points about the benefits of a construct army, and infer a few others that may have alternate explanations. For example, saying that the "only conceivable advantage" of warforged is "logistical in nature", and that therefore warforged must be easier/more efficient to replace than living soldiers, strikes me as potentially flawed.
Think about it: your nation has been fighting for a century. Your citizens are tired of seeing their young men march off to die for no forseeable benefit. Suddenly you are given an option to deploy constructed soldiers which, though expensive, are effective as living troops but will provoke little public backlash should they perish. Doesn't it make sense that a nation might make that investment simply to shore up support for the war/reduce public pressure to end it? And once the benefits of the construct army became apparent, that nation may maintain a standing unit of these wareforged despite their comparitively higher cost for the strategic flexibility that it affords them.
If this were the case, one would expect to see the largest deployments of warforged in those nations with the fullest coffers and/or the most susceptability to public opinion. As far as I know, one could make a good case that Breland and Cyre are those two nations, and they indeed fielded the most warforged. (In Cyre's case you also have a nation with considerable wealth but a low population, increasing the pressure to use forged units. Or at least that is what I recall, I don't have any references on me)
Second, even assuming that the warforged do end up costing less than living soldiers all told, it does not therefore follow that you can produce them endlessly. It never alludes to this in any reference source I am aware of, but it is possible that producing the warforged requires some resource (metal, mineral, magical etc.) that there simply isn't that much of, or the sources of which are not (prohibitively) expensive but are not easily scaled to industrial levels. Perhaps some metal vital to their construction is found in only a few places on Khorvaire, and is painstaking to extract properly. As a result, only so many warforged can be made each year, and expanding that capacity is difficult or impossible.
I like that second possibility as a DM especially because it opens up all sorts of maneuvering over the control of those resources, sabotage of your enemies' supplies, and even cannabalization of irreparably damaged units to construct new warforged. It also provides an explanation of why warforged might be important but not overwhelming tools of war assuming the rest of your (JasterMereel's) arguments are apt.
Finally, there are a few other advantages beyond logistics which recommend warforged to the canny commander. They are disciplined (in the representations I've seen of them, at least). They are less likely to be swayed by enemy agents or to let something vital slip while engaging in vices. They make ideal sentries (do not tire, perhaps are less prone to boredom). They are less susceptible to disease/infection.
Just some thoughts late at night, if I read this in the morning and it doesn't make sense perhaps I'll come back and try to explain myself more clearly.
I've definitely considered that the resources to construct and/or repair warforged may be (or probably are) rare. I suppose my points were more generally about the idea of a construct army in the abstract. In specific instances, they would definitely not necessarily dominate warfare.
However, I think it's important to understand the ideal possibilities because military leaders in-game would probably have thought of it themselves.
One thought I always had was that I never really liked the use of straight undead by Karrnath. I think it would have been much cooler if they had invested in large numbers of flesh golems instead. It would also, I think, make Karrnath a much darker society, since it's quite different hacking up dead soldiers and stitching them together into some kind of (partially) undead, Frankenstein's Monster-like creature than it is just raising their skeleton. It would also allow them to use the body parts from fallen flesh golems to make more flesh golems. Just a thought.
To be honest, I'm actually surprised at the (relative) lack of variety in warforged models. Also, as I have said before, I'm surprised they didn't develop a more cheaply made version that only possesses animal intelligence but is about the same size (or smaller) as normal warforged. But we've been over that before.
The are called iron defenders, clay scouts, animated arbalasts, and so on ;) They do exist, especially in 4e where they have removed the automatic direct link between homonuculi and its creator as some kind of familiar.
As for flesh golems, well, that would certainly make Karrnath dark, but I might go so far as to say that it would make it too dark. I mean, saying, "Fight for Karrnath! Serve your country - twice!" is gallows humor (but funny gallows humor!) enough. If you make Karrnath any darker, I think that it would just start sliding into "evil necromantic sorceror" territory.
As for flesh golems, well, that would certainly make Karrnath dark, but I might go so far as to say that it would make it too dark. I mean, saying, "Fight for Karrnath! Serve your country - twice!" is gallows humor (but funny gallows humor!) enough. If you make Karrnath any darker, I think that it would just start sliding into "evil necromantic sorceror" territory.
I don't think it would make it too dark (considering the scale I'm beginning to see the Last War fought on...), but perhaps that could be some new development in Karrnath for the Next War (or, rather, there are plans on the table for it).
One idea I just had was that there may have been a specific battle (offensive) into Cyre conducted by Karrnath not too long after Cyre started using Warforged in numbers, and that the Karrns lost so many troops in this (failed) offensive that this was actually the cause of their shortage in manpower (with continuing effects on their demographics). I also considered that one possible implication of this is that Warforged are hated in Karrnath particularly, since many Karrns consider all Warforged (regardless of which Nation they served) to be responsible for the destruction of an entire generation of Karrn men. Just a thought.
Anyways. I think by canon.....yeah. First Karrnath undead army was in 898 YK. 'Forged were a hell of a lot later. So, Karrnath was using "Risen Patriots" for almost the entire war. Warforged were....what, the last 30 years?
Hmm. That actually might be an interesting dynamic.
Anyways. I think by canon.....yeah. First Karrnath undead army was in 898 YK. 'Forged were a hell of a lot later. So, Karrnath was using "Risen Patriots" for almost the entire war. Warforged were....what, the last 30 years?
I believe a little closer to 40, but yea. I'd just retcon it for my own games. It would be ironic having a 'Forged character enter into Karrnath and get shouted down by the inhabitants, who might be yelling something about how Warforged are "unnatural" and "abominations"...