Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Scrinoverlord Feb 21, 2009 16:22:01	Forgotten Realms players snap at new players who are even SLIGHTLY wrong about FR lore. New concepts? That's bad (apparently). It seems also that FR players are older, more mature, and a little humorless. Eberron players? Well, they have a Motivational Poster thread. Must I say more? :D Anyone else see any...er...fissures between the two worlds?
#2 salla Feb 21, 2009 16:42:36	Rather. I've been amused that there's a fair amount of ranting on the FR board about the 'Warforged in FR' Dragon article 'heresy', and I haven't seen complaint one about the 'Genasi in Eberron' half of the SAME article. EDIT: I blame the canonicity (is that a word?) of the novels. It's created, in the minds of many FRites, I think, a 'continuity lockout', where they feel that they cannot deviate from canon in their games, and anything that might do so is to be shunned. Since Eberron has been, from the get-go, intended to be each individual group's Eberron, we don't have that mental block. I experienced this once when I was running a Star Wars game, set during the Clone Wars. Anakin Skywalker had gotten captured and was going to be exsanguinated, and then his midichlorians injected into the big-bad. The PCs assumed I wouldn't violate canon and proceeded to waste time and screw around even after I had given them a pretty definite timetable. They didn't make it, and he died, on screen with a body found. There was about five minutes of total silence. It was really kind of awesome. Now try to imagine a hard-core FR canon fanatic killing off Elminster or Drizzt or someone else with that kind of name-dropping status ...
#3 saint_matthew Feb 22, 2009 0:00:10	I recently had another player start gunning for my character in a LFR's game after i told him that i thought the Drizzt was a very boring character & that i thought the Ed Greenwood was an overrated author, whose plots & general writing style jumped around to much to be worth reading & that his style has become more frantic and less readable with age. This was at a FLGS & the GM had to ask the player to stop trying to kill my character or leave. Now when i say tried to kill my character, it started out as small things like not helping me defend the party (he was a sword and board fighter, i was a Cleric of Sune) & ended with him actually attacking my character (claimed that i had turned evil). Poor (old) Forgotten Realms fans. I have noticed that many fans (see also slavering fanboys) of the old realms hate the new realms, are more then a little obsessive & hate anyone who can't see the awsomeness of Drizzt, Elminster & Ed Greenwood. Now i love Eberron & so far am enjoying the new realms (as opposed to my dislike of the old realms), but i hate Drizzt, Elminster & the collected works of Ed Greenwood leave me feeling bored & annoyed at having wasted my time with his writings. Its strange what fictional things people will get annoyed about. -M
#4 neofish7 Feb 22, 2009 0:37:31	We all know that Eberron owns, that's why, i'd say, 90% of 4th edition is modeled after it :D . Seriously, check it out. It kinda sucks, but at the same time you can really tell what the designers where reading and gettin inspired from. I mean, even 4th ed Realms takes heavy notes from the 'ole Eberron playbook *cough* Mournland* cough* Aberrant Marks* cough* it's kinda funny, and kinda sad... The only thing i'm worried about is the Artificer of 4th edition. It was my favorite class of 3.5, hands down. But the 4th power system like its the only thing that doesnt fit with 'ficer. If it turns out to be anything like the playtest one, i'm going to be sorly dissapointed...
#5 Marcus_Majarra Feb 22, 2009 2:29:20	As a side note regarding the new Artificer, one of my players has recently tried out the Magic Weapon at will power. It is pure awesome.
#6 shady314 Feb 22, 2009 3:15:37	You're not the first to make a post stating something to this effect. There are a lot of reasons for the difference in community but I think the most important is simply age. Eberron is still so new it hasn't had the opportunity yet for players to become so hidebound. People haven't grown up with it, haven't had the time to build anything up as sacred and "tradition" isn't a possible answer to anyone's questions.
#7 PJammaGod Feb 22, 2009 7:55:37	I have to say Saint Matt I aint surprised in the slightest what happened in your game session. BTW would any of the players be people I happen to know (past or present?), because I can think of several people whom take this game perhaps a tad too... seriously :P .
#8 saint_matthew Feb 22, 2009 8:03:23	not anyone we've gamed with in the past PJammaGod (thankfully). I quite enjoyed the play style of some of the players. Those that had never played FR before.
#9 rauric Feb 22, 2009 9:55:36	You're not the first to make a post stating something to this effect. There are a lot of reasons for the difference in community but I think the most important is simply age. Eberron is still so new it hasn't had the opportunity yet for players to become so hidebound. People haven't grown up with it, haven't had the time to build anything up as sacred and "tradition" isn't a possible answer to anyone's questions. It has started already in some cases. When the designers suggested a 2 year time jump some online fans kinda freaked and then the designers canned the idea. The idea of a 13 year old Keeper of the Flame really bothered some folks. Plus some folks are complaining already how they may incorporate some 4E stuff (Planar names especially) into EB. I have met some pretty liberal FR fans in my days of gaming so I lucked out. I know there are some canon zealots out there but I never met them.
#10 skrapsan Feb 22, 2009 10:23:35	I think it also depends on what people you happen to run into. It would just seem that Eberron have fewer of the "fanatics". But then again, as others have mentioned before, the setting is built up with a lot of blanks so that the DM should be able to fill in his own ideas.
#11 joni-san Feb 22, 2009 10:30:54	The idea of a 13 year old Keeper of the Flame really bothered some folks. -Joni
#12 goblin_pride Feb 22, 2009 10:53:22	This was at a FLGS & the GM had to ask the player to stop trying to kill my character or leave. Now when i say tried to kill my character, it started out as small things like not helping me defend the party (he was a sword and board fighter, i was a Cleric of Sune) & ended with him actually attacking my character (claimed that i had turned evil). So what's the problem? Simple enough solution, the GM either starts a parallel game for the two factions of the party or one of you is rolling up a new character. The fact that he started it because you criticized the FR novels makes it more likely which way I'd lean. The FR players I've played with in the past always break from canon. I've played in games where Cormyr is ripped apart by civil war, orcs and goblinoids unite to found great empires in the north, and even one campaign with an all drow cast of characters. When added to an "anything goes" mindset, the Forgotten Realms is alot more like Eberron than the FR that the fanboys love. As far as party infighting goes, that should be driven by the character rather than the player. Just last night I almost left one of the other players in a losing situation because it would give the rest of the group a chance to get away from a grisly end*. It's nothing personal against the other player, but sometimes their character has to die. I'd rather not have their blood on my blade most of the time**, but sometimes a quick poke to the kidney with the pointy end is just what it takes to get the authorities off my trail and that's the way it is. *Sometimes you don't have to outrun the bear, neh? Currently I'm playing a wood elf druid and our group's human barbarian engaged an umber hulk while the rest of the party was making a well-executed withdrawal. In the mind of a druid with a memory longer than a human's lifespan already, sacrificing one human to save two elves and a dwarf was an acceptable loss. He got lucky, the withering fire from the covering players dropped the umber hulk before it got him. Had it not gone down, he wouldn't have found an avenue of escape. **I have a bit of a reputation for killing off other PCs. We don't always play nice and the first warning that a certain behavior is dangerous to the party is generally a bit more pointed than most people prefer. Just don't sit down to a drow, goblin, orc or thieves guild game with me or someone like me and you'll be okay.
#13 salla Feb 22, 2009 11:09:48	I recently had another player start gunning for my character in a LFR's game after i told him that i thought the Drizzt was a very boring character & that i thought the Ed Greenwood was an overrated author, whose plots & general writing style jumped around to much to be worth reading & that his style has become more frantic and less readable with age. This was at a FLGS & the GM had to ask the player to stop trying to kill my character or leave. Now when i say tried to kill my character, it started out as small things like not helping me defend the party (he was a sword and board fighter, i was a Cleric of Sune) & ended with him actually attacking my character (claimed that i had turned evil). Are we allowed to use the world 'douchebag' on these boards? If we, are my only response is .. What a douchebag.
#14 rauric Feb 22, 2009 11:14:46	My group has a policy for players/pcs who get out of hand. They either let them die if they keep getting in way over there head, or they tell the PC (not the player) to leave their adventuring party. The 2nd option actually keeps the group from making attention getting pcs that will to "plot bomb" my games. Although the last time we went up against something that was way over our heads we kept fighing. A level 8 solo was against us (4 level 3 pcs). Thanks to the two defenders (pally & fighter) and my artificers (me) healing (yeah healing!) we stomped it. We all were going to flee but the barbarian dwarf flt dirty about lasting so long and then finally running. He stopped and turned around when he saw that the Solo was still going to catch us and get at least a few more whacks in and was going to "buy us some time". The group could not let him go down like that and fought on.
#15 green_yawgmoth Feb 22, 2009 13:20:18	Forgotten Realms players snap at new players who are even SLIGHTLY wrong about FR lore. New concepts? That's bad (apparently). It seems also that FR players are older, more mature, and a little humorless. Eberron players? Well, they have a Motivational Poster thread. Must I say more? :D Anyone else see any...er...fissures between the two worlds? Bolded part is my contention. Almost all of the FR players I have met have been almost comically immature. I've had DMs kill off my character piece by piece because I made an arcane spellcaster, because I wanted to play a human, because my character's backstory had him born in a certain area, all manner of weird hatreds. And all of them neglected to mention "hey, make a kobold or an elf or else your character is boned" because apparently it's more fun to kill off characters in offensive ways than simply say "hey, here's the game idea, make characters for it." I'm not even going to get into what has happened when I point out little logical flaws in the setting. It's akin to seeing a child stick their fingers in their ears and yelling "I'm not listening you're just wrong lalalala!" Maybe I just got the cream of the crap in every place I've lived.
#16 jabberwocky888 Feb 22, 2009 13:52:01	Ok, in my country there aren't many D&D groups so I can't judge the maturity of FR players. But honestly, from what I know about FR setting (3ed and previous) I find it a bit too like a fairy tale. That depends partly on the GM, true, but even one of my friends refused to GM FR and ran a Greyhawk campaign instead (and made it an excitingly mature world of intrigue). I played in FR a few times and didn't like the setting at all. I'm really glad for Eberron.
#17 shady314 Feb 23, 2009 5:06:40	It has started already in some cases. When the designers suggested a 2 year time jump some online fans kinda freaked and then the designers canned the idea. I have met some pretty liberal FR fans in my days of gaming so I lucked out. I know there are some canon zealots out there but I never met them. Are you ever going to get over that? I am sure you remember I was one of the people that argued against the time jump and it had nothing to do with my not wanting them to screw with canon. At least the argument was kept civil. Also your statement suggests the idea was canned solely due to us. I'd certainly love to take all the credit but there were designers that also opposed it you know.
#18 PJammaGod Feb 23, 2009 7:03:45	I dunno is this thread is kinda going in the right direction. A FR bashing thread probably doesn't make us look like the most credible players right now :P .
#19 salla Feb 23, 2009 7:35:09	I dunno is this thread is kinda going in the right direction. A FR bashing thread probably doesn't make us look like the most credible players right now :P . We're not bashing FR, we're bashing the FR fans who have Elminster's staff shoved up their backside and need to have it magically removed. :D
#20 rauric Feb 23, 2009 7:53:47	Are you ever going to get over that? I am sure you remember I was one of the people that argued against the time jump and it had nothing to do with my not wanting them to screw with canon. At least the argument was kept civil. No, I am over it. I just wanted to point out that EB fans can be act the same way. This setting is new and people may be still open to new ideas, but given time gamers are a silly, rigid lot. And yes we did keep that argument pretty civil. I loathed EB in the beginning until I was "forced" to play in a friends game. After a month I liked the setting and after six months I loved it. Now I am running it. If I kept my closeminded arrogant "FR is best" attitude I would have missed out on a fun world to play in. I was turning into one of those FR elitest people I had heard about, and I did not like it. I do not plan on turning into an EB elitest either. Trust me, given time we will see many like those. It is the way of the gamer.
#21 Otakkun Feb 23, 2009 13:21:42	saint_matthew I recently had another player start gunning for my character in a LFR's game after i told him that i thought the Drizzt was a very boring character & that i thought the Ed Greenwood was an overrated author, whose plots & general writing style jumped around to much to be worth reading & that his style has become more frantic and less readable with age. This was at a FLGS & the GM had to ask the player to stop trying to kill my character or leave. Now when i say tried to kill my character, it started out as small things like not helping me defend the party (he was a sword and board fighter, i was a Cleric of Sune) & ended with him actually attacking my character (claimed that i had turned evil). Poor (old) Forgotten Realms fans. I have noticed that many fans (see also slavering fanboys) of the old realms hate the new realms, are more then a little obsessive & hate anyone who can't see the awsomeness of Drizzt, Elminster & Ed Greenwood. Now i love Eberron & so far am enjoying the new realms (as opposed to my dislike of the old realms), but i hate Drizzt, Elminster & the collected works of Ed Greenwood leave me feeling bored & annoyed at having wasted my time with his writings. Its strange what fictional things people will get annoyed about.
#22 rauric Feb 23, 2009 18:21:22	The thing is these are the stories that are head and told. People that never played in the setting start to get the impression that the setting is too bloated with lore that they must know or they are behind the curve somehow. This is never true and it is truely about the players/DM and not the setting, but still the stories will spread because of those fans that take things too far.
#23 PJammaGod Feb 23, 2009 20:02:08	We're not bashing FR, we're bashing the FR fans who have Elminster's staff shoved up their backside and need to have it magically removed. :D *chuckles* I sit, rather gingerly, corrected ;)
#24 mafdet Feb 24, 2009 20:00:22	Since the topic of FR and FR fan bashing has come up and some bashing seems to be going on I have to wonder just how Eberron fans would react to the same things being done to the Eberron setting as were done to FR setting in the edition change? I mean when you consider that a mere 2 year jump was objected to strongly enough to get it negated, just what results would a 100 year jump have brought? Or more drastically what if the new edition decided to replace a continent like Sarlona with another newly created land of new races and then the Mornland is expanded to replace some of the nations and some other nations are arbitrarily replaced with newly created nations that have nothing to do with the nations they replaced? Wouldn't there then be screaming and complaining on the boards atleast as bad as that which the FR fans are bashed for? Also wouldn't the Eberron fans then be the ones feeling defensive when someone starts criticizing Eberron to their faces? Granted, none of this is at all likely to really happen as Eberron seems to be the setting which is to be protected in it's current form at all cost. You see, some of us are fans of multiple settings and I for one have to wonder just how things would be if the shoe had been on the other foot so to speak. In any case, I hope that this gives a little better perspective on the defensiveness of some FR fans, best wishes everyone.
#25 saint_matthew Feb 24, 2009 22:14:13	Since the topic of FR and FR fan bashing has come up and some bashing seems to be going on I have to wonder just how Eberron fans would react to the same things being done to the Eberron setting as were done to FR setting in the edition change? I mean when you consider that a mere 2 year jump was objected to strongly enough to get it negated, just what results would a 100 year jump have brought? Or more drastically what if the new edition decided to replace a continent like Sarlona with another newly created land of new races and then the Mornland is expanded to replace some of the nations and some other nations are arbitrarily replaced with newly created nations that have nothing to do with the nations they replaced? Wouldn't there then be screaming and complaining on the boards atleast as bad as that which the FR fans are bashed for? Also wouldn't the Eberron fans then be the ones feeling defensive when someone starts criticizing Eberron to their faces? Granted, none of this is at all likely to really happen as Eberron seems to be the setting which is to be protected in it's current form at all cost. You see, some of us are fans of multiple settings and I for one have to wonder just how things would be if the shoe had been on the other foot so to speak. In any case, I hope that this gives a little better perspective on the defensiveness of some FR fans, best wishes everyone. I dont think this would faze us as much as it has fazed the FR guilds (i think the term guilds is more appropriate here). The reason we didn't want a huge jump is very different from why the FR guilds didn't want the jump. We didn't want it because the campaign setting is so new that extreme changes would just confuse new players & would ruin the general feel of the setting (though a two year jump would have been fine as far as i'm concerned). As for things being altered in the Realms, it was all done rather organically from what i've seen. Yes some thing were destroyed, like my favourite nation Halruaa, but i got over it. the FR Guilds didn't want it because it would have destroyed much of the knowledge base they have built up over 2 decades. In my experience FR players in general are some of the most knowledgable & by association arrogant players of any setting. (NOTE- SOME players not all) so much information had been provided that if you have a true FR-Dino in your game, he or she will stop you every 2 minutes too tell you why you are wrong & mention some piece of meta-knowledge which gives him any advantage. not all FR fans were like that but a good deal fall into the "FR Guild" section rather then the player who just enjoys playing in the realms. -M
#26 PJammaGod Feb 25, 2009 1:08:49	*looks carefully around before posting* I'll candidly admit I was one of the people pro the 2 year hop-up for Eberron. In my mind it allowed several storylines to progress and ferment futher. It also allowed us to see how the cold war between the remaining four nations was bubbling along. But that idea was generally negated by the greater community and the 4e staff.
#27 shady314 Feb 25, 2009 2:34:22	This is all getting well away from the original posters point which was NOT that every FR fan is a canon zealot or that FR is bad etc. but that in GENERAL Eberron PLAYERS are more friendly to OTHER PLAYERS (even more specifically the FORUMS) when it comes to helping/contributing to the campaigns of newer or less knowledgeable DMs especially when it veers greatly from established lore. This I have found to be true. Posts on how to kill King Boranel, The Keeper of the Flame, Oalian etc. or advice on adapting other roleplaying systems to convert the setting into and things like that, get a very different general reaction on the boards than similar threads on the FR boards. This is not because Eberron players or the setting are intrinsically better. There is simply a very different vibe here for a variety of reasons.
#28 Webster Feb 25, 2009 2:43:01	Actually, we don't need threads picking on any other players or fans of other settings. Thread closed.