Now with Mystra dead, I'm presuming the ban on true 10th level+ spells and such is gone. Wouldn't that mean that someone could cast Karsus' Avatar?!
Buahahahahha!!!! Indeed.. :P
Now, maybe a mountaintopflip and mythallar first. Spheresails would be nice on a flying city too..
Then think about godhood
Ding dong, the witch is dead!
Now with Mystra dead, I'm presuming the ban on true 10th level+ spells and such is gone. Wouldn't that mean that someone could cast Karsus' Avatar?!
The Weave's gone, too. And just because there's no one who bestows a restriction upon you in regard to spell levels, doesn't mean that there is automatically no upper limit. Also, magic in 4e works in a different way now. Actually, there are no longer 'high-level spells', or epic spells, for that matter.
Anyway, let's assume the target is again the god of magic. Then I think you would become quite desperate in your search for the right deity :D
The Weave's gone, too. And just because there's no one who bestows a restriction upon you in regard to spell levels, doesn't mean that there is automatically no upper limit. Also, magic in 4e works in a different way now. Actually, there are no longer 'high-level spells', or epic spells, for that matter.
Anyway, let's assume the target is again the god of magic. Then I think you would become quite desperate in your search for the right deity :D
But why would there be an upper limit? And Karsus' Avatar wasn't meant solely for Mystra; any god(ess) will do.
And once that is done, move into a giant pyramid they craft with a zillion wall of stones. And rule forever thru clergy and infinite range magic powers.
All you really need is a scrying pool.. and lots of spells :P
And let some promising youth take over the old flying city to become the next god. In a few millennia there should be a few hundred of those demigods
Eventually society may abandon the flying cities and move in with their gods into those base 2km & height 3km pyramids riddled with chambers, halls and demiplanes that can provide all neccessities of life.
hehe.. and make their many wives goddesses too.. and keep producing spirit children for all eternity (that can incarnate into people to make them true believers that will strive to godhood of their own). Now with a whole multiverse open, this could be quite a rebirth of the believers of tyhe source.. :P
But why would there be an upper limit?
Well, let's look into the Player's Handbook. Level 29 are the highest spells in there (which would be lvl 9 in previous editions). I can't see any lvl 38 or whatever spells because the level limit is 30 (so far). Reasonable, isn't it?
And Karsus' Avatar wasn't meant solely for Mystra; any god(ess) will do.
Thus the simley after my sentence in the last post :P
Well, let's look into the Player's Handbook. Level 29 are the highest spells in there (which would be lvl 9 in previous editions). I can't see any lvl 38 or whatever spells because the level limit is 30 (so far). Reasonable, isn't it?
You wouldn't find Karsus' Avatar, or any other 12th level spells, in Player's Handbook 3.5 either;p
Ioulaum himself is still around tho, as is terraseer.. both should have 12th level spells up their sleeves :P
Now then ofcourse, level 12 may be easier to achieve. one upon a time it took lvl 41, but with epic feats you could get by Wiz 24 3 epic feats... 10th, 11th and finally 12th level spellslots.
Assuming those are still the relevant slots that is.
Karsus avatar could be a slot 20 spell this time around you know ;)
You wouldn't find Karsus' Avatar, or any other 12th level spells, in Player's Handbook 3.5 either;p
No, you misunderstood me.
The point is, that in previous editions the limit was 9th level. Spells above were just lower lvl spells cast with metamagic feats. In the Realms (not in core), in the Arcane Age, was it possible to cast true 10th to 12th lvl spells (not spells augmented with metamagic).
However, now with 4e, everything is supposed to be core and there is no weave anymore. Thus, the limit is a 9th level equivalent, a level 30 spell. Maybe in some future sourcebooks we get epic spells or even high-level spells for the 4e magic system, too.
Now then ofcourse, level 12 may be easier to achieve. one upon a time it took lvl 41, but with epic feats you could get by Wiz 24 3 epic feats... 10th, 11th and finally 12th level spellslots.
Keep in mind, that a 12th level spell in AD&D is not necessarily a 12th level spell (achieved thru metamagic feats) in 3e.
Here's Karsus' Avatar (the epic spell version):
Karsus's Avatar
Conjuration (Netherese)
Spellcraft DC: 407
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting Time: 6 hours, 11 minutes
Range: Unlimited (interplanar)
Target: One Deity
Duration: 20 hours if successful
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 3,663,000gp, 10 years, 74 days, 146,520 XP; Seeds: transport (DC 27), transport (DC 27), transport (DC 27), fortify (DC 27), transform (into outsider, DC 21); Factors: grant 20 outsider HD (+76), unwilling target (+4), interplanar (+4), change from touch to target (+4), any creature type (+40), transfer DvR (x2), transfer portfolio (x2), transfer domains (x2); Mitigating Factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20), increase casting time by 6 hours (-12), caster dies (-50), requires 10 years of additional research (-730) artifact material components (heavy magic, -237), artifact material component (enchanted starmetal, -500), burn 10,000 XP (-100).
Karsus spent well over a decade researching this spell. It was so complex that he had to use a stone-filled gizzard of a gold dragon and part of the epidermis of the pituitary gland of the tarrasque just to enchant one of the material components of the spell. This spell has been recreated using the information presented by a newly ressurected Karsus.
It's believed this spell allows the caster to temporarily become a god of his choosing, merging the current god with himself the moment the spell is completed. After the duration ends, the targeted god and caster are seperated and the divinity is stripped away from the caster, resulting in his death.
Material Components: heavy magic, enchanted starmetal (must be enchanted using an unknown epic spell utilizing the epidermus of the pituitary gland of the tarrasque and a stone filled gizzard of an adult gold dragon as material components)
XP Cost: 10,000 XP
Karsus avatar could be a slot 20 spell this time around you know ;)
According to an epic spellcasting variant of Dicefreaks, which divides the DC by 10, rounds down and adds +7, Karsus' Avatar would be a lvl 47 spell ;)
Have fun with Improved Spell Capacity x38 :P
No, you misunderstood me.
The point is, that in previous editions the limit was 9th level. Spells above were just lower lvl spells cast with metamagic feats. In the Realms (not in core), in the Arcane Age, was it possible to cast true 10th to 12th lvl spells (not spells augmented with metamagic).
However, now with 4e, everything is supposed to be core and there is no weave anymore. Thus, the limit is a 9th level equivalent, a level 30 spell. Maybe in some future sourcebooks we get epic spells or even high-level spells for the 4e magic system, too.
I am perfectly aware that the limit was 9th level; I played D&D 1st edition through to 3.5. In the Arcane Age, as you say, there are true 10+ lvl spells.
Until they can core tweak in a max spell level, I don't see why one shouldn't be able to cast true 10th level spells. There's a difference between not making 10th level spells (or the equivelant) and saying it's not possible.
I am perfectly aware that the limit was 9th level; I played D&D 1st edition through to 3.5. In the Arcane Age, as you say, there true 10+ lvl spells.
Until they can core tweak in a max spell level, I don't see why one shouldn't be able to cast true 10th level spells. There's a difference between not making 10th level spells (or the equivelant) and saying it's not possible.
In core there were never 10+ lvl spells. So why should there be any with 4e now? I'm pretty sure they come up eventually with some epic spells (i.e. beyond lvl 30 spells). And then, everything you have to do is to convert your 12th lvl spell to this new system.
In core there were never 10+ lvl spells. So why should there be any with 4e now? I'm pretty sure they come up eventually with some epic spells (i.e. beyond lvl 30 spells). And then, everything you have to do is to convert your 12th lvl spell to this new system.
That's not the point; why shouldn't there be more powerful spells? In FR, the thing that stopped it was Mystra; now that she and the Weave's gone, why shouldn't it be possible?
That's not the point; why shouldn't there be more powerful spells?
As I already said, because the magic system changed (not just in the Realms). And because the new system isn't unique anymore ('cause there's no weave).
In FR, the thing that stopped it was Mystra; now that she and the Weave's gone, why shouldn't it be possible?
In FR it was Mystra, yes. In core there were no such spells. And now everything is core, so...
Making the history of Netherease magic a fallacy; the fact is it is entirely MORE likely that the Weave in its original incarnation allowed casters to cast beyond level 9, which is the normal universal limitation placed upon mortal magic.
After Mystryl's death, she learned her lesson, and reset things back to what they should be (which is how it worked everywhere else).
At least thats the way I always looked at it.
In FR it was Mystra, yes. In core there were no such spells. And now everything is core, so...
It is still FR.. despite the chasms, dragon born and floating farm houses...
Which means 10th+ exists.
Btw, we havent heard what became of Tam, i mean we know he went thru some ritual/spell top turn himself into a superbeing. And he did that after mystra was gone..
And he made that somewhat non-szass-tam-like deal.. (see undead for more).
So here i am, seriously suggesting he knew that when mystra was gone 10+ would be workable again, and had a copy of one of those ancient spells. Perhaps even the karsus avatar.
Perfect way to cheat his way out of the deal.
Which means theres a god that is very ****** off at szass atm :D
It is still FR.. despite the chasms, dragon born and floating farm houses...
Which means 10th+ exists.
Of course it's still FR. But the rules are core. No more FR-only mechanics.
As I'm in a hurry, to summarize it: I'm right, and u're wrong :P
Of course, that would just be houseruling it, but it would work.
Being essentially a font of Raw magic Mystra, at Aos beckoning, Created the Weave, that the Mortals would not be able to draw on her essense. This was also to limit the upward Reaches one could achieve with magic.
Given the expanse of the universe/ Multiverse, is stands to reason that Magic is dispersed, and thus diluted. Without a focus of unparalelled raw magic, there is no way to achieve such spell levels. Should Mystra be reborn, and no weave reformed, the focus would return, and wizards should in theory once more be able to draw upon her, for true 10th + level spells.
-RW
P.S. It said in second edition that such spells drew upon the essense of Mystra herself, so this is backed by canon material.
If you say that the old editions levels 1-9 are now spread across 27 levels, you can also say that those uber-spells (10+ level) can be cast at levels 28-30 now.
Of course, that would just be houseruling it, but it would work.
It would actually have to be extended upwards to level 36.
10 = level 30
11 = level 33
12 = level 36
-RW
Actually, working on my take of it, it makes sense both by lore and Mechanics. Mystra was in Essense a focus of the Universes Magic. It is how she was so phenominally powerful, and Why Ao had to put a Restriction on that Power Via the Chosen.
Being essentially a font of Raw magic Mystra, at Aos beckoning, Created the Weave, that the Mortals would not be able to draw on her essense. This was also to limit the upward Reaches one could achieve with magic.
Given the expanse of the universe/ Multiverse, is stands to reason that Magic is dispersed, and thus diluted. Without a focus of unparalelled raw magic, there is no way to achieve such spell levels. Should Mystra be reborn, and no weave reformed, the focus would return, and wizards should in theory once more be able to draw upon her, for true 10th + level spells.
-RW
P.S. It said in second edition that such spells drew upon the essense of Mystra herself, so this is backed by canon material.
But why would you then be able to cast High Magic rituals, some of which are FAR more powerful than a 10th level spell? And how would the "fake" 10th level spells be useable? They still use the same amount of "essence." Also, without Mystra going "right lads, no more spells over 9th level!" I don't see why it shouldn't be possible, in theory. I mean, Iolaum's Longevity still existed as epic magic, even if it's level version didn't exist.
It still makes sense in context with the rules and lore. Highmagic still exists, in the form of Ritual Magic/ Circle magic.
The major difference comes in one wizard casting something for no cost, and another doing so at the expense of breathren, or ones own life.
-RW
But why wouldn't it be possible to cast true 10th level spells? It makes no sense, lore or mechanical wise.
-Because the Weave is different, and 10th Level spells are now minor things like Fireball and such.
-That said, Mystra appropriated every shred of research and stuff about Karsus' Avatar, so should someone want to cast it, they'd have to start from scratch with the development of the spell.
Because both High magic, and Epic magic, drew upon the caster to power them, not the universe or Mystra. If you want to drain your own essense to power such spells, then by all means cast things of higher power.
It still makes sense in context with the rules and lore. Highmagic still exists, in the form of Ritual Magic/ Circle magic.
The major difference comes in one wizard casting something for no cost, and another doing so at the expense of breathren, or ones own life.
-RW
But say you've modified a spell to equal an 11th level spell. Why wouldn't you be able cast true 10th level spells, as I presume they would take the same amount of personal power. Just curious as to why you need the universe or Mystra to power 10+ level spells.
Just curious as to why you need the universe or Mystra to power 10+ level spells.
-Because, in Realmspace, all 'mundane' spells drew upon the power of Mystra and the Weave. One of the problems with the new Forgotten Realms book saying that the Weave doesn't exist anymore, but magicians can still cast spells, is that it doesn't explain how this is possible, being as that, based on past information, we know this isn't possible. An explanation, which the new book doesn't have, would go a long way to making sense of certain things.
I think Szass Tam wanted to perform such a aritual with the new magic system. It's written in FRCG that he worked "a titanic ritual", but his attempt was thwarted (the novel Unholy by R. L. Byers will provide details I suppose)
-RW
-Because, in Realmspace, all 'mundane' spells drew upon the power of Mystra and the Weave. One of the problems with the new Forgotten Realms book saying that the Weave doesn't exist anymore, but magicians can still cast spells, is that it doesn't explain how this is possible, being as that, based on past information, we know this isn't possible. An explanation, which the new book doesn't have, would go a long way to making sense of certain things.
Just because Torillans were told magic couldn't work without the weave, doesn't mean it was true. The weave was a way to control, and surpress what casters could do, after the nonsense that nearly destroyed the planet.
If I told you you could only get water from taps, and later you discovered a lake, would you argue that the lake couldn't possibly exist?
-RW
Just because Torillans were told magic couldn't work without the weave, doesn't mean it was true. The weave was a way to control, and surpress what casters could do, after the nonsense that nearly destroyed the planet.
-Omniscient 3rd party point-of-view sourcebooks told us that magic couldn't work without the Weave. These sources tell absolute statements, and do not lie, twist words, misinterpret things, and so on.
It would actually have to be extended upwards to level 36.
10 = level 30
11 = level 33
12 = level 36
-RW
Well, imho 1 to 30 in 4e is like 1 to 9 in previous editions. So 10th would be lvl 33, 11th would be lvl 36, and 12th would be lvl 40.
Well, imho 1 to 30 in 4e is like 1 to 9 in previous editions. So 10th would be lvl 33, 11th would be lvl 36, and 12th would be lvl 40.
Yes, but with a spell cap of 27, that makes the spell levels a multiple of 3. Levitate, a former second level spell, is now a 6th level spell. This equation isn't true for all the conversions, but most stand up well to it.
Now with this in mind, the 30, 33, and 36 levels can be derived.
-RW
Yes, but with a spell cap of 27, that makes the spell levels a multiple of 3. Levitate, a former second level spell, is now a 6th level spell. This equation isn't true for all the conversions, but most stand up well to it.
Now with this in mind, the 30, 33, and 36 levels can be derived.
-RW
Yeah, I can see your point.
However, one could argue that spell levels relate to class/character levels. Thus, it would even make sense with the deities (or other beings more powerful than lvl 30) in mind (i.e. Morading lvl 38 would qualify for 11th level spells. So the most powerful deities would be able to cast 12th level spells).
Well, this is just a thought of mine.
-Omniscient 3rd party point-of-view sourcebooks told us that magic couldn't work without the Weave. These sources tell absolute statements, and do not lie, twist words, misinterpret things, and so on.
For the sake of lore, is it so hard to assume my answer?
At the time they had no intent of changing things as they have, however from a mechanics standpoint it worked in our favour. It's always easier to play something out, if you believe it to. If your Wizard thought they had to rely on the Weave, or no magic could exist, then you thinking the same made their thoughts more steadfast.
However, with the change, we, as the PCs, are shocked to find it was all an elaborate lie. Which to me I don't so much mind. I always treated the weave as something that power Toril alone, and when taking wizards off world, had them adapt to the new universal magic. This change just canonizes how I always played.
I think it's certainly better than simply saying it's impossible.
-RW
It would actually have to be extended upwards to level 36.
10 = level 30
11 = level 33
12 = level 36
-RW
30, 35, 41 and we are damn close to how netheril the box put it down.
For the sake of lore, is it so hard to assume my answer?
-Yes, because the rules of the universe are the rules of the universe.
-Yes, because the rules of the universe are the rules of the universe.
But they aren't the rules of the universe. They were assumed laws for years, until the reality has at last been revealed. Simply because they were portrayed in a way to convince even the players, doesn't mean that all along the truth wasn't as it is now.
And regardless of what old lore says, new lore trumps. So at the end of the day, this factual rule is the correct one.
I personally think it's better to see it this way, than to close your mind and pretend otherwise.
-RW
-Again, 3rd person omniscient sources do not have the ability to be wrong. What is, is.
And 4E is a third party omniscient source, that must therefore be correct.
it states that it is possible, thus refuting your arguement of impossibility.
Now, for the sake of smoothing the lines, a very valid arguement is being made, that you don't want to hear. I like you LK, but you're sounding kind of stubbornly closeminded right now. :P
I think it makes things more interesting to assume that the OOC knowledge made the IC knowledge easier to play, when we didn't know that there was anything but the Weave.
-RW
And 4E is a third party omniscient source, that must therefore be correct.
it states that it is possible, thus refuting your arguement of impossibility.
Now, for the sake of smoothing the lines, a very valid arguement is being made, that you don't want to hear.
-How can two sources, both 100% correct and absolute, that dictate how the rules of the universe work, be different?
I like you LK, but you're sounding kind of stubbornly closeminded right now. :P
-Me? Never.
tabra can do lvl 10, maybe 11.
Ioulaum himself is still around tho, as is terraseer.. both should have 12th level spells up their sleeves :P
Now then ofcourse, level 12 may be easier to achieve. one upon a time it took lvl 41, but with epic feats you could get by Wiz 24 3 epic feats... 10th, 11th and finally 12th level spellslots.
Assuming those are still the relevant slots that is.
Karsus avatar could be a slot 20 spell this time around you know ;)
Ioulaum and Terraseer are still around? What's the story behind that?
Ioulaum and Terraseer are still around? What's the story behind that?
Ioulaum is a undead illithid elder brain these days.... and Terraseer always was a sarrukh lich.
With Mystra gone and both the Weave and Shadow Weave shattered the magic of the Realms cosmology has weakened and altered but survived since it was the magic in the Weave which supposedly held the world together.
With no goddess of Magic and no Weave mages had to learn a new way to work magic and many did though not as powerful as before.
Tam tried a ritual but it failed, whether through interference or just not the right mix it's not clear on at this point. It's possible he tried something akin to Karsus' Avatar and it failed either because he couldn't find a target diety or it didn't mesh with the way magic now works.
Karsus' Avatar would be a ritual in 4e and not a spell (3e 12th level equivalent or otherwise) as it's casting time is over 5 minutes. It would have to be at least a level 30 ritual due to its effects as this would be the equivalent of the demigod Epic Destiny Quest.
-The Terraseer is likely awake now. LEoF hinted that the Terraseer's time in stasis was nearing and end, and that it was approaching his time to walk the Realms once more. With the Spellplague, and the new "Netheril", and everything, a perfect time.
Yeah--I glanced through the FRCG at the bookstore, and it seems there's a little Sarrukh kingdom around now. I don't know any real details about it though (I only skimmed through stuff).
Yeah--I glanced through the FRCG at the bookstore, and it seems there's a little Sarrukh kingdom around now. I don't know any real details about it though (I only skimmed through stuff).
-It began with an 'O', I think.
-It began with an 'O', I think.
It's Okoth and is on the shores of the Lake of Salt and near the Sharwood. this is in the southeast region of Faerun, east of the Underchasm and on the Gulf of Luiren. It looks like it might be part of the Abeir crossover actually as it's southeast of Tymanther.
In 2nd edition the supplement Dragon Kings (for Dark Sun) did have 10th level spells.
As for the Netherese spells, I think, and it would fit within the new rules, that these will be rituals, and they may go over 30th level, just as monsters can. It will just require multiple casters and/or special feats and foci.
According to an epic spellcasting variant of Dicefreaks, which divides the DC by 10, rounds down and adds +7, Karsus' Avatar would be a lvl 47 spell ;)
Have fun with Improved Spell Capacity x38 :P
Um you are wrong here a Epic level spell isn't prepared in a spell slot. You get a certain number of Epic Spells per Day.
Also this whole arguement is moot as Karsus's Avartar is probably a epic destiny in 4th edition
Um you are wrong here a Epic level spell isn't prepared in a spell slot. You get a certain number of Epic Spells per Day.
No, you are wrong, obiviously.
I said 'According to an epic spellcasting variant of Dicefreaks'.
Lastly epic spells are not handed out according to one's rank in Knowledge (Arcana) or similar skills - the epic spell's spell level is just as responsible for its use as the creator's designs. If you want to cast Olymbian Bolt, for instance, you would need access to 16th lvl spells (via Improved Spell Capacity x7), a base relative ability of 26, and spend the resources to develop the spell itself.
Although if you really wanted a look at said spell, odds are a copy exists, of the notes if not the spell, in the library of Oghma.
-Nope. Mystra destroyed all of Karsus' spell notes and such, to prevent the spell from being used ever again.
No, you are wrong, obiviously.
I said 'According to an epic spellcasting variant of Dicefreaks'.
Ah I thought I would give the rule that made epioc spells useable...my bad. That is really a rule that makes up epic spells useless...shrug.
Anyway in 4th edition to do Karsus's Avartar would probably be a Epic Destiny.
If they don't, then let's just houserule what the tiers would look like. 4e needs some true epic stuff beyond the not-so-epic "epic tier". The power progressions would continue as normal, the rituals would progress along the same rate, and there would be a new analogue of paragon paths and epic destinies.
I really don't think that they can get away with capping the power level in its current state and still have guys like Tam and Terraseer running around.
If they don't, then let's just houserule what the tiers would look like.
I recommend checking out U_K's site immortalshandbook.com.
Here he talks about tiers above epic level ;) (at the bottom)
Tam himself is a level 30 elite lich/wizard. He's quite powerful but even his attempt at godhood failed and was via a ritual, not a spell tied to his level. If we assume he has the same level limit as a PC when it comes to rituals the ritual he attempted was level 30. Due to it requiring a human kingdom under his control by the way it sounds it is probably more powerful than most level 30 rituals but also has a higher cost and DC than most as well.