1358 to 1478: Rewriting the Era of Upheaval - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

1358 to 1478: Rewriting the Era of Upheaval

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
pamela
May 17, 2009 9:11:01 I'm considering having a campaign which leaves out the history of 2e and 3e. I hated Ao and the Time of Troubles and am considering the years between the first and last editions as possibly one long era when Abeir and Toril came into conjunction, with primordials and gods warring and fighting to keep their two worlds alive. As the two sister planets collide and separate, returning to their respective planes/dimensions/whatever, the Spellplague arises.

It's a very rough idea but I also am waiting for my sister to find and mail my old Gray Box set. What kind of things could you see arising during this revised Era of Upheaval?
#2
lord_karsus
May 17, 2009 11:43:27 -The primary thing you are going to have to come up with is, if you are keeping the Spellplague as it is, how Cyric exists as a deity.
#3
pamela
May 17, 2009 12:36:16
-The primary thing you are going to have to come up with is, if you are keeping the Spellplague as it is, how Cyric exists as a deity.

I am more than happy to change the cause of the Spellplague since I've never been fond of Cyric. Indeed, the only post-ToT newbie that I consider worthy of keeping is Kelemvor.

The list of greater gods that I could "confirm" (as much as Wikipedia would let me) from the Old Gray Box were: Azuth, Bane, Bhaal, Chauntea, Gond, Helm, Ilmater, Lathander, Malar, Mask, Mielikki, Myrkul, Mystra, Oghma, Selûne, Shar, Shaundakul, Silvanus, Sune, Talos, Tempus, Tyr and Umberlee. Comparing it to the 4e books, these are the only ones who've carried over (ignoring histories of deaths in between): Bane, Chauntea, Oghma, Selûne, Shar, Sune and Tempus. I am still mulling over Lathander/Amaunator's fate though one or the other will still remain.

If this list is correct, there were no specifically non-human gods in the Gray Box (bear in mind again I don't have the books at hand and am surfing the fickle Net to check this out in the meantime).

I was also unable to confirm whether Tymora was actually in the Gray Box. I think she was but it's been at least four years since I saw those books...
#4
lord_karsus
May 17, 2009 13:00:43 -The deities that underwent apotheosis as a result of the Time of Troubles are:

Cyric
Finder Wyvernspur
Kemelvor
Mystra

-The deities that died as a result of the Time of Troubles are:

Bane
Bhaal
Gilgeam (right after, and as a direct result of the Time of Troubles)
Ibrandul
Leira
Moander
Myrkul
Ramman
Tiamat
Torm
Zinzerena
#5
meldread
May 17, 2009 23:05:25 Here is a suggestion for you. As Abeir and Toril come into conjunction, it causes the Weave to go wild and crazy causing the Spellplague. It'll allow you to keep the Weave in the end, but it'll give you the Spellplague.

As for Abeir... well, I'd treat it as an alternate dimension. Abeir is effectively an "alternate Toril." The conjunction is very similar to how the planes in Eberron effect the Material Plane. Learn more about that here.

You'll have to come up with some reason for the conjunction, but a powerful wizard screwing with the space / time continuum might work. I say start the world from the Old Grey Box, and have the conjunction take place around the Time of Troubles. Have a group of players that actually play through it, deal with the aftermath, and determine the future through further gaming sessions.
#6
meldread
May 18, 2009 0:36:58 Let me add to my above thoughts.

Basically, what we are trying to establish is the fact that Toril has parallel universes, each one with things slightly different than another. Abeir is one such alternate Toril.

Abeir itself came into being around the time the Sundering took place, and thus on Abeir it never happened. History itself has been altered as a result.

Now, this would mean that it is technically possible for someone who was born during the Sundering and is still alive, to have a copy of themselves on both worlds. Obviously, they would have led totally separate lives, but it would still be them nevertheless.

Okay, now that we have established that, here is how it could all potentially take place. Take a Baelnorn, a Neutral Aligned Elven Lich, who has a "Third Eye" - the gift for seeing into the future.

This Baelnorn has been around since before the Sundering, and he is so powerful that he makes the Srinshee look like a novice. He knows about these parallel universes, and although he doesn't really have the ability to travel to them (such is rather difficult under circumstances), he does have the ability to communicate between them. Essentially, he is exploiting a loophole in the fabric of the space-time continuum.

So, he is in contact with his copy in Abeir. As the years go by they both foresee something horrible. Like the total end of everything horrible.

And the event in question is going to begin on Toril as a result of the Sundering. So this is what prompts this Baelnorn into action.

Now, it is impossible to alter the past. You can travel back in time, but anything you change will have no impact on the future. So, in normal circumstances Toril and the multiverse would be doomed.

However, this Baelnorn has a plan to save it, by exploiting a loophole. While he cannot change the past under normal circumstances, if he can overload the fabric of space-time he can overwrite the past to save the future.

Now, the alternate Toril's are not static in position. They are mobile, much like the planes in Eberron. Under normal circumstances it is very difficult to even communicate with a parallel universe let alone have any impact on it. Thankfully, everything has just become coterminous. The Baelnorn has waited thousands of years for this, and it is his only chance to be successful for the next ten thousand years.

As the two parallel universes become coterminous both copies of the Baelnorn begin casting a spell that would effectively create a physical bridge between the two universes. However, there is a law that states that only one copy of an individual can exist at any one time. As the two universes form a bridge between them, the Baelnorn's merge into a single entity, that is effectively double the power of both individually.

The Baelnorn would then inhabit the space between the two worlds as a uber-entity. With his power and in his current location he has the ability to see with perfect clarity every past that could have been, and every future that could be. Of course, this does not mean he knows what WILL happen, only what COULD happen. This allows him to know what to avoid doing.

The PC's are vital, of course, and therefore the Baelnorn cannot destroy them. Unless he wants to have everything be for naught.

This gives the PC's two choices. First, they could try and close the bridge between the conjoined alternate worlds. However, to do this they must slay the Baelnorn. If they are successful in that action, the entire multi-verse is doomed in roughly 25,000 years, and all of existence is wiped out. If they choose to aid the Baelnorn then they save all of existence and the Baelnorn commits suicide to close the bridge.

The reason the Baelnorn has to die is that his existence is the bridge. The spell that both copies cast was to effectively join themselves together and create the bridge, which would then in effect allow them to alter reality itself.

Crazy things would happen throughout the world as a result. You could be walking through the forest and suddenly, all the trees would disappear and in their place could be a small village. The people themselves would appear as if they had always lived there, and to them you would be the one who strangely appeared out of nowhere.

Alternatively, you could be walking through a village and a building could suddenly disappear and all the people suddenly find themselves outside... or all the people in the village could suddenly disappear... virtually anything could happen. Even events, though you'd remember them, would not have taken place. So let's say you burned a village to the ground and killed all of its people. It could be possible to return to that village, and it would be as if you never arrived. The people would all be alive again, the village would seem just as it was before you burned it, and the people would not remember you. (Because to them you never arrived.)

Even the maps themselves could change. Entire landmasses could simply vanish, or new ones could simply appear out of nowhere. The entire world, all of space and all of time is completely mutable. To some extent it would be controlled by the Baelnorn, but overall it would be chaotic and largely random.

The Weave would react negatively in strange ways, because it, like the Baelnorn exists on both worlds.

Now, there is the problem of the gods. That can easily be solved by imagining what is going on in the planes. It is likely that space-time is being influenced there as well. To mortals the gods could simply fall silent, with no response and no action taken to stop what is going on. Likely because they are too busy trying to hold their divine realms together, and keep from being wiped out of existence.

Erm... all of this is really scattered and rambling thoughts. Sorry. :P
#7
krownhunter07
May 18, 2009 18:23:14 Very interesting idea... I'll think on it and post something helpful... hopefully...
#8
yakman
May 18, 2009 21:53:45 Then I think that you should probably think about the key Primordial players. After all, if they are active in your revised world (which they were/are not in Abeir) then you should probably come up with at least one or two as villains (or the leaders of those villains)--even if they ARE defeated by the time your campaign begins.

Also, where are you geographically setting the campaign? Try to think about the campaign locations and how the long war between the divine and the primordials impacted that location.

Also, you might want to grab some inspiration from Sword and Sorcery's Scarred Lands setting, which is set in the aftermath of such a war.
#9
pamela
May 19, 2009 15:11:28 Meldread, thank you both for your ideas and the link to Eberron. I am swamped with work right now but promise to check out the link more carefully when the weekend comes around. My husband (my #1 player ;) ) was very intrigued by your thoughts on the parallel Baelnorns; I may have a fight on my hands if I decide not to use them, dammit! :P

Yakman, thanks for the reminder about the primordials. I rather foolishly assumed I could use the FR ones but as you point out, that really doesn't make much sense at all if they have been restricted to Toril. Another question arises as to why they DID choose to stay behind and not follow their brethren to Abeir.

This could bring up a question as to whether any deities ever stayed behind (a way to introduce some of the gods who hadn't been in the Gray Box).
#10
meldread
May 19, 2009 16:48:51 No problem. I suggested the idea because it allows you to completely change anything you want - either by adding or retconning, and you have the advantage of it not technically being a retcon at all. :P

After it ends, one way or another, I imagine something like the equivalent of earthquakes in space-time. Essentially this would be the world trying to heal itself, by getting rid of things that no longer make sense. (Example: Because Bob was never born to found the town, the town therefore does not exist, and the people who would have lived there were either never born or didn't arrive.) This would continue for at least a decade, at the very least.

Such a thing is just an opportunity for you as the DM to deal with inconsistencies in the setting that might crop up as a result.
#11
colman
May 20, 2009 3:51:59 Can I just say I love this project, even if I'm going to stay with the official history?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pamela May 17, 2009 9:11:01	I'm considering having a campaign which leaves out the history of 2e and 3e. I hated Ao and the Time of Troubles and am considering the years between the first and last editions as possibly one long era when Abeir and Toril came into conjunction, with primordials and gods warring and fighting to keep their two worlds alive. As the two sister planets collide and separate, returning to their respective planes/dimensions/whatever, the Spellplague arises. It's a very rough idea but I also am waiting for my sister to find and mail my old Gray Box set. What kind of things could you see arising during this revised Era of Upheaval?
#2 lord_karsus May 17, 2009 11:43:27	-The primary thing you are going to have to come up with is, if you are keeping the Spellplague as it is, how Cyric exists as a deity.
#3 pamela May 17, 2009 12:36:16	-The primary thing you are going to have to come up with is, if you are keeping the Spellplague as it is, how Cyric exists as a deity. I am more than happy to change the cause of the Spellplague since I've never been fond of Cyric. Indeed, the only post-ToT newbie that I consider worthy of keeping is Kelemvor. The list of greater gods that I could "confirm" (as much as Wikipedia would let me) from the Old Gray Box were: Azuth, Bane, Bhaal, Chauntea, Gond, Helm, Ilmater, Lathander, Malar, Mask, Mielikki, Myrkul, Mystra, Oghma, Selûne, Shar, Shaundakul, Silvanus, Sune, Talos, Tempus, Tyr and Umberlee. Comparing it to the 4e books, these are the only ones who've carried over (ignoring histories of deaths in between): Bane, Chauntea, Oghma, Selûne, Shar, Sune and Tempus. I am still mulling over Lathander/Amaunator's fate though one or the other will still remain. If this list is correct, there were no specifically non-human gods in the Gray Box (bear in mind again I don't have the books at hand and am surfing the fickle Net to check this out in the meantime). I was also unable to confirm whether Tymora was actually in the Gray Box. I think she was but it's been at least four years since I saw those books...
#4 lord_karsus May 17, 2009 13:00:43	-The deities that underwent apotheosis as a result of the Time of Troubles are: Cyric Finder Wyvernspur Kemelvor Mystra -The deities that died as a result of the Time of Troubles are: Bane Bhaal Gilgeam (right after, and as a direct result of the Time of Troubles) Ibrandul Leira Moander Myrkul Ramman Tiamat Torm Zinzerena
#5 meldread May 17, 2009 23:05:25	Here is a suggestion for you. As Abeir and Toril come into conjunction, it causes the Weave to go wild and crazy causing the Spellplague. It'll allow you to keep the Weave in the end, but it'll give you the Spellplague. As for Abeir... well, I'd treat it as an alternate dimension. Abeir is effectively an "alternate Toril." The conjunction is very similar to how the planes in Eberron effect the Material Plane. Learn more about that here. You'll have to come up with some reason for the conjunction, but a powerful wizard screwing with the space / time continuum might work. I say start the world from the Old Grey Box, and have the conjunction take place around the Time of Troubles. Have a group of players that actually play through it, deal with the aftermath, and determine the future through further gaming sessions.
#6 meldread May 18, 2009 0:36:58	Let me add to my above thoughts. Basically, what we are trying to establish is the fact that Toril has parallel universes, each one with things slightly different than another. Abeir is one such alternate Toril. Abeir itself came into being around the time the Sundering took place, and thus on Abeir it never happened. History itself has been altered as a result. Now, this would mean that it is technically possible for someone who was born during the Sundering and is still alive, to have a copy of themselves on both worlds. Obviously, they would have led totally separate lives, but it would still be them nevertheless. Okay, now that we have established that, here is how it could all potentially take place. Take a Baelnorn, a Neutral Aligned Elven Lich, who has a "Third Eye" - the gift for seeing into the future. This Baelnorn has been around since before the Sundering, and he is so powerful that he makes the Srinshee look like a novice. He knows about these parallel universes, and although he doesn't really have the ability to travel to them (such is rather difficult under circumstances), he does have the ability to communicate between them. Essentially, he is exploiting a loophole in the fabric of the space-time continuum. So, he is in contact with his copy in Abeir. As the years go by they both foresee something horrible. Like the total end of everything horrible. And the event in question is going to begin on Toril as a result of the Sundering. So this is what prompts this Baelnorn into action. Now, it is impossible to alter the past. You can travel back in time, but anything you change will have no impact on the future. So, in normal circumstances Toril and the multiverse would be doomed. However, this Baelnorn has a plan to save it, by exploiting a loophole. While he cannot change the past under normal circumstances, if he can overload the fabric of space-time he can overwrite the past to save the future. Now, the alternate Toril's are not static in position. They are mobile, much like the planes in Eberron. Under normal circumstances it is very difficult to even communicate with a parallel universe let alone have any impact on it. Thankfully, everything has just become coterminous. The Baelnorn has waited thousands of years for this, and it is his only chance to be successful for the next ten thousand years. As the two parallel universes become coterminous both copies of the Baelnorn begin casting a spell that would effectively create a physical bridge between the two universes. However, there is a law that states that only one copy of an individual can exist at any one time. As the two universes form a bridge between them, the Baelnorn's merge into a single entity, that is effectively double the power of both individually. The Baelnorn would then inhabit the space between the two worlds as a uber-entity. With his power and in his current location he has the ability to see with perfect clarity every past that could have been, and every future that could be. Of course, this does not mean he knows what WILL happen, only what COULD happen. This allows him to know what to avoid doing. The PC's are vital, of course, and therefore the Baelnorn cannot destroy them. Unless he wants to have everything be for naught. This gives the PC's two choices. First, they could try and close the bridge between the conjoined alternate worlds. However, to do this they must slay the Baelnorn. If they are successful in that action, the entire multi-verse is doomed in roughly 25,000 years, and all of existence is wiped out. If they choose to aid the Baelnorn then they save all of existence and the Baelnorn commits suicide to close the bridge. The reason the Baelnorn has to die is that his existence is the bridge. The spell that both copies cast was to effectively join themselves together and create the bridge, which would then in effect allow them to alter reality itself. Crazy things would happen throughout the world as a result. You could be walking through the forest and suddenly, all the trees would disappear and in their place could be a small village. The people themselves would appear as if they had always lived there, and to them you would be the one who strangely appeared out of nowhere. Alternatively, you could be walking through a village and a building could suddenly disappear and all the people suddenly find themselves outside... or all the people in the village could suddenly disappear... virtually anything could happen. Even events, though you'd remember them, would not have taken place. So let's say you burned a village to the ground and killed all of its people. It could be possible to return to that village, and it would be as if you never arrived. The people would all be alive again, the village would seem just as it was before you burned it, and the people would not remember you. (Because to them you never arrived.) Even the maps themselves could change. Entire landmasses could simply vanish, or new ones could simply appear out of nowhere. The entire world, all of space and all of time is completely mutable. To some extent it would be controlled by the Baelnorn, but overall it would be chaotic and largely random. The Weave would react negatively in strange ways, because it, like the Baelnorn exists on both worlds. Now, there is the problem of the gods. That can easily be solved by imagining what is going on in the planes. It is likely that space-time is being influenced there as well. To mortals the gods could simply fall silent, with no response and no action taken to stop what is going on. Likely because they are too busy trying to hold their divine realms together, and keep from being wiped out of existence. Erm... all of this is really scattered and rambling thoughts. Sorry. :P
#7 krownhunter07 May 18, 2009 18:23:14	Very interesting idea... I'll think on it and post something helpful... hopefully...
#8 yakman May 18, 2009 21:53:45	Then I think that you should probably think about the key Primordial players. After all, if they are active in your revised world (which they were/are not in Abeir) then you should probably come up with at least one or two as villains (or the leaders of those villains)--even if they ARE defeated by the time your campaign begins. Also, where are you geographically setting the campaign? Try to think about the campaign locations and how the long war between the divine and the primordials impacted that location. Also, you might want to grab some inspiration from Sword and Sorcery's Scarred Lands setting, which is set in the aftermath of such a war.
#9 pamela May 19, 2009 15:11:28	Meldread, thank you both for your ideas and the link to Eberron. I am swamped with work right now but promise to check out the link more carefully when the weekend comes around. My husband (my #1 player ;) ) was very intrigued by your thoughts on the parallel Baelnorns; I may have a fight on my hands if I decide not to use them, dammit! :P Yakman, thanks for the reminder about the primordials. I rather foolishly assumed I could use the FR ones but as you point out, that really doesn't make much sense at all if they have been restricted to Toril. Another question arises as to why they DID choose to stay behind and not follow their brethren to Abeir. This could bring up a question as to whether any deities ever stayed behind (a way to introduce some of the gods who hadn't been in the Gray Box).
#10 meldread May 19, 2009 16:48:51	No problem. I suggested the idea because it allows you to completely change anything you want - either by adding or retconning, and you have the advantage of it not technically being a retcon at all. :P After it ends, one way or another, I imagine something like the equivalent of earthquakes in space-time. Essentially this would be the world trying to heal itself, by getting rid of things that no longer make sense. (Example: Because Bob was never born to found the town, the town therefore does not exist, and the people who would have lived there were either never born or didn't arrive.) This would continue for at least a decade, at the very least. Such a thing is just an opportunity for you as the DM to deal with inconsistencies in the setting that might crop up as a result.
#11 colman May 20, 2009 3:51:59	Can I just say I love this project, even if I'm going to stay with the official history?