2E spellsinger? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

2E spellsinger?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
theswordsmaster
Jun 25, 2009 17:16:17 We'll be starting a 2E game in about a month. I was going over some book and I found the spellsinger in "wizard and rogue of the realms". Is it playable and if yes how good compared to a standard/specialist wizard?

The_swords_master
#2
mock26
Jun 25, 2009 18:03:50
We'll be starting a 2E game in about a month. I was going over some book and I found the spellsinger in "wizard and rogue of the realms". Is it playable and if yes how good compared to a standard/specialist wizard?

The_swords_master

Spellsingers are a cool character idea, but in my experience they do not work out that well. It is great that they can cast spells of any level, but there are severe penalties involved for casting a spell outside of their spell-casting "range." Thus, you will never find a 1st level spellsinger casting a 9th level spell (-32 penalty for their non-weapon proficiency check). It is nice when you can sometimes cast a spell one or two levels beyond your range, but this can often be rare. The biggest problem with the spellsinger is the requirement to dance for X number of rounds equal to the level of the spell being cast and then rest for an equal number of rounds. This makes spellsingers pretty useless in combat, especially as the spell "needed" to be cast can change from round to round and the spellsinger must know in advance how long to prepare. For example, if you want to cast a third level spell you have to dance for three rounds and then cast the spell (and then rest for three rounds before you can try to cast another spell). A lot can change in three rounds. Even casting a first level spell means that you are unable to cast a spell every other round. The inability to cast Invocation/Evocation spells also hinders their direct combat abilities.

If it is going to be a combat intensive campaign (or even a combat-moderate campaign) I would advise against a spellsinger. If there is a lot of roleplaying then it might be a viable option. I personally think that they work best as NPCs.
#3
theswordsmaster
Jun 25, 2009 18:20:50 I'll probably go with a wizard then. The campagin will probably have some moderate form of combat. We're starting at level 1, any good advice for me. We're using the skills & power variant so I can customize about any aspect of my wizard. any specialist worth using?

The_Swords_Master
#4
mock26
Jun 25, 2009 20:45:27
I'll probably go with a wizard then. The campagin will probably have some moderate form of combat. We're starting at level 1, any good advice for me. We're using the skills & power variant so I can customize about any aspect of my wizard. any specialist worth using?

The_Swords_Master

Propose the "Mock26 Wizard House Rules 1 & 2" to your DM. The first house rule from my campaign is that wizards get a spell bonus just like clerics get, but it is based on Intelligence instead of wisdom. The second house rule is that wizards can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast, to a maximum of 5 extra spells. For example, a wizard capable of casting 6 first, 4 second and 2 third level spells could memorize 11 first, 8 second and 4 third level spells. While the total number of spells he can cast does not change, the mage has a lot more versatility (and survivability) at low levels.

As for Skills & Powers rules, I am not all that familiar with them. My 2nd level campaign does not use those. If your DM allows the above house rules then any wizard can really be playable, useful, and not be a death-magnet. If your DM does not go for them then maybe an evocation specialist. Being specialized will give you an extra spell at first level. Just be sure to choose a school of magic that gives you the spells that you want! A combat specialist mage who cannot cast magic missile or fireball is often not very effective.

If there is an option in the Skills and Powers that can give you a decent combat weapon then you should consider it, and then take a missile weapon. I think I remember something about being able to pick a weapon and have an equivalent THAC0 as a fighter of the same level with that weapon. (I also think that there is something about taking a different Hit Die for your class.) Having a bow or throwing daggers or darts is a handy thing for when you have run out of spells or you want to conserve your spells. It allows you to deal damage without having to expose yourself to undo danger. Give a lot of thought on what you want this character to become, both in the beginning and in the long run. If you do not care much about crafting magic items or inventing spells then look into trying to just improve your combat abilities so that you can be (more) effective when you run out of spells and will have a better chance of surviving at lower levels.

Also, BUY ARMOR! You cannot wear armor if you want to cast spells, but once you are out of spells there really is no rule that prevents you from pulling on a suit of chainmail for some added protection.

What level are you starting at? If you are starting at first level then you might want to consider an elven fighter/mage blade singer. If you are starting at a higher level then maybe a dual-classed human could work (assuming, of course, that you have the stats for it). If at a higher level find out what your starting XP is and I can offer some advice on dual-classing.

If your DM has any questions about either of my house rules, which have been in use in my campaign for 9 years now, send me a PM and I will pass along my e-mail address and he can shoot me an e-mail. I will say, up front, that both of those house rules have worked really well (the memorization one applies to all spellcasters) in my campaign and have heightened it incredibly. They have not detracted from my game at all. And find out what house rules he is using! There might be something in there that will give you some advantages.
#5
theswordsmaster
Jun 25, 2009 21:11:47 With Skills & power I can get 2 bonus spell per level I can cast one of which is of my specialisation. I'll propose your house rules to him and hope for the best. We're starting at 1st level. As for the bladesinger I'll have to look it up. Thanks for the help. It's appreciated.

The_Swords_Master
#6
mock26
Jun 25, 2009 23:57:12
With Skills & power I can get 2 bonus spell per level I can cast one of which is of my specialisation. I'll propose your house rules to him and hope for the best. We're starting at 1st level. As for the bladesinger I'll have to look it up. Thanks for the help. It's appreciated.

The_Swords_Master

The bladesinger is in the Complete Book of Elves. There are two ways to be a bladesinger. One is to simply be a fighter and take the Bladesinging proficiency which gives some combat bonuses. Or you can take the Kit. Be warned, though, that some DM's view the bladesinger kit to be overpowered.

And you are welcome! I am always glad to help out where I can.

Also, do not forget that suit of armor! :D
#7
theswordsmaster
Jun 26, 2009 16:49:26 I got hold of him and got his houses rules. I get a +1 bonus to a stat for every 4 character level as per the 3.0/3.5 rules except I can't go beyond my racial limit. I also get bonus spell from a high INT but I still have to hear what he think about memorizing more spell.

I looked at the bladesinger and it's awesome. A great alternative to the spellsinger and much more playable. any input as to which elf subrace to use. The kit suggest the gray elf or high elf but it's only a suggestion.

I won't forget my armor...and they WILL be surprised for sure. Except for the usual mithril chain shirt of twilight +X in 3.5 they don't see wizard in armor much ;)

The_Swords_Master
#8
mock26
Jun 26, 2009 18:12:09
I got hold of him and got his houses rules. I get a +1 bonus to a stat for every 4 character level as per the 3.0/3.5 rules except I can't go beyond my racial limit. I also get bonus spell from a high INT but I still have to hear what he think about memorizing more spell.

I looked at the bladesinger and it's awesome. A great alternative to the spellsinger and much more playable. any input as to which elf subrace to use. The kit suggest the gray elf or high elf but it's only a suggestion.

I won't forget my armor...and they WILL be surprised for sure. Except for the usual mithril chain shirt of twilight +X in 3.5 they don't see wizard in armor much ;)

The_Swords_Master

As for which type of race, it really does not matter. You might want to base it on the character's personality.
#9
faraer
Jun 27, 2009 12:11:28
Be warned, though, that some DM's view the bladesinger kit to be overpowered.

Including Colin McComb, its creator, who later thought of PHBR8 The Complete Book of Elves as something of a youthful indiscretion.
You might want to base it on the character's personality.

Yes. These rules exist to represent character concepts, not the other way round.
#10
theswordsmaster
Jun 27, 2009 12:29:16 I'll probably used the standard elves then. As for the "overpoweredness" of the bladesinger, I don't think it's gonna be a problem for my DM. We're used to being almost always overwhelmed by his encounter so every bit of power we can get is put to good use.

With Skills & Power I've got to "buy" the school I want to cast spell from but I'm sure there's one or two school I can drop in favor of other abilities like improved HD or better THAC0. I don't really like necromancy but if there's a very good reason to keep it I might change my mind. Evocation is an old classic but is it really useful in 2E. I'm kinda used to 3.5 spellcasting...going back is hard.

The_Swords_Master
#11
mock26
Jun 27, 2009 14:25:09 If I had to choose I would probably opt for doing away with Necromancy. Evocation is always a good standby, and do not forget about the illusions. Talk to your DM about how he uses them. If he treats illusions as being like holographic projections that everyone can see then definitely keep illusions. Improved Phantasmal Force (2nd level) is a great spell for hiding! My players have used it create a false wall in a room and then hid behind the wall while some powerful monsters went on by. If, however, the DM treats them like 3rd edition where you have to target individual minds then you might consider scrapping illusion as well.

Also, find out what spells he is allowing and what source books. Specifically, find out if he will allow you to use the Wizard's Spell Compendium books. There are a LOT of spells in there, more so than what is just in the Player's Handbook. Find out what spells he will allow and once you have that list then start reading through the spells of the various schools of magic and start picking spells that you think you would find useful. Rate them all on a scale of 1 to 5 and when you are done see which schools of magic have the best rating (the most spells you would like) and which have the least. This will help you choose which ones to select.

As I said earlier I have been running my 2nd edition campaign for 9 years now and if you have any questions shoot me a PM with your e-mail address. Also, if your DM is looking for a fellow 2nd edition DM to bounce ideas off of, please offer to him my services.

Take care and have a great day....

ciao,
john.

PS Be sure to pick up a hammer and a sack/box full of nails! You would be suprised at how useful they are, especially if you have to nail a door shut!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 theswordsmaster Jun 25, 2009 17:16:17	We'll be starting a 2E game in about a month. I was going over some book and I found the spellsinger in "wizard and rogue of the realms". Is it playable and if yes how good compared to a standard/specialist wizard? The_swords_master
#2 mock26 Jun 25, 2009 18:03:50	We'll be starting a 2E game in about a month. I was going over some book and I found the spellsinger in "wizard and rogue of the realms". Is it playable and if yes how good compared to a standard/specialist wizard? The_swords_master Spellsingers are a cool character idea, but in my experience they do not work out that well. It is great that they can cast spells of any level, but there are severe penalties involved for casting a spell outside of their spell-casting "range." Thus, you will never find a 1st level spellsinger casting a 9th level spell (-32 penalty for their non-weapon proficiency check). It is nice when you can sometimes cast a spell one or two levels beyond your range, but this can often be rare. The biggest problem with the spellsinger is the requirement to dance for X number of rounds equal to the level of the spell being cast and then rest for an equal number of rounds. This makes spellsingers pretty useless in combat, especially as the spell "needed" to be cast can change from round to round and the spellsinger must know in advance how long to prepare. For example, if you want to cast a third level spell you have to dance for three rounds and then cast the spell (and then rest for three rounds before you can try to cast another spell). A lot can change in three rounds. Even casting a first level spell means that you are unable to cast a spell every other round. The inability to cast Invocation/Evocation spells also hinders their direct combat abilities. If it is going to be a combat intensive campaign (or even a combat-moderate campaign) I would advise against a spellsinger. If there is a lot of roleplaying then it might be a viable option. I personally think that they work best as NPCs.
#3 theswordsmaster Jun 25, 2009 18:20:50	I'll probably go with a wizard then. The campagin will probably have some moderate form of combat. We're starting at level 1, any good advice for me. We're using the skills & power variant so I can customize about any aspect of my wizard. any specialist worth using? The_Swords_Master
#4 mock26 Jun 25, 2009 20:45:27	I'll probably go with a wizard then. The campagin will probably have some moderate form of combat. We're starting at level 1, any good advice for me. We're using the skills & power variant so I can customize about any aspect of my wizard. any specialist worth using? The_Swords_Master Propose the "Mock26 Wizard House Rules 1 & 2" to your DM. The first house rule from my campaign is that wizards get a spell bonus just like clerics get, but it is based on Intelligence instead of wisdom. The second house rule is that wizards can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast, to a maximum of 5 extra spells. For example, a wizard capable of casting 6 first, 4 second and 2 third level spells could memorize 11 first, 8 second and 4 third level spells. While the total number of spells he can cast does not change, the mage has a lot more versatility (and survivability) at low levels. As for Skills & Powers rules, I am not all that familiar with them. My 2nd level campaign does not use those. If your DM allows the above house rules then any wizard can really be playable, useful, and not be a death-magnet. If your DM does not go for them then maybe an evocation specialist. Being specialized will give you an extra spell at first level. Just be sure to choose a school of magic that gives you the spells that you want! A combat specialist mage who cannot cast magic missile or fireball is often not very effective. If there is an option in the Skills and Powers that can give you a decent combat weapon then you should consider it, and then take a missile weapon. I think I remember something about being able to pick a weapon and have an equivalent THAC0 as a fighter of the same level with that weapon. (I also think that there is something about taking a different Hit Die for your class.) Having a bow or throwing daggers or darts is a handy thing for when you have run out of spells or you want to conserve your spells. It allows you to deal damage without having to expose yourself to undo danger. Give a lot of thought on what you want this character to become, both in the beginning and in the long run. If you do not care much about crafting magic items or inventing spells then look into trying to just improve your combat abilities so that you can be (more) effective when you run out of spells and will have a better chance of surviving at lower levels. Also, BUY ARMOR! You cannot wear armor if you want to cast spells, but once you are out of spells there really is no rule that prevents you from pulling on a suit of chainmail for some added protection. What level are you starting at? If you are starting at first level then you might want to consider an elven fighter/mage blade singer. If you are starting at a higher level then maybe a dual-classed human could work (assuming, of course, that you have the stats for it). If at a higher level find out what your starting XP is and I can offer some advice on dual-classing. If your DM has any questions about either of my house rules, which have been in use in my campaign for 9 years now, send me a PM and I will pass along my e-mail address and he can shoot me an e-mail. I will say, up front, that both of those house rules have worked really well (the memorization one applies to all spellcasters) in my campaign and have heightened it incredibly. They have not detracted from my game at all. And find out what house rules he is using! There might be something in there that will give you some advantages.
#5 theswordsmaster Jun 25, 2009 21:11:47	With Skills & power I can get 2 bonus spell per level I can cast one of which is of my specialisation. I'll propose your house rules to him and hope for the best. We're starting at 1st level. As for the bladesinger I'll have to look it up. Thanks for the help. It's appreciated. The_Swords_Master
#6 mock26 Jun 25, 2009 23:57:12	With Skills & power I can get 2 bonus spell per level I can cast one of which is of my specialisation. I'll propose your house rules to him and hope for the best. We're starting at 1st level. As for the bladesinger I'll have to look it up. Thanks for the help. It's appreciated. The_Swords_Master The bladesinger is in the Complete Book of Elves. There are two ways to be a bladesinger. One is to simply be a fighter and take the Bladesinging proficiency which gives some combat bonuses. Or you can take the Kit. Be warned, though, that some DM's view the bladesinger kit to be overpowered. And you are welcome! I am always glad to help out where I can. Also, do not forget that suit of armor! :D
#7 theswordsmaster Jun 26, 2009 16:49:26	I got hold of him and got his houses rules. I get a +1 bonus to a stat for every 4 character level as per the 3.0/3.5 rules except I can't go beyond my racial limit. I also get bonus spell from a high INT but I still have to hear what he think about memorizing more spell. I looked at the bladesinger and it's awesome. A great alternative to the spellsinger and much more playable. any input as to which elf subrace to use. The kit suggest the gray elf or high elf but it's only a suggestion. I won't forget my armor...and they WILL be surprised for sure. Except for the usual mithril chain shirt of twilight +X in 3.5 they don't see wizard in armor much ;) The_Swords_Master
#8 mock26 Jun 26, 2009 18:12:09	I got hold of him and got his houses rules. I get a +1 bonus to a stat for every 4 character level as per the 3.0/3.5 rules except I can't go beyond my racial limit. I also get bonus spell from a high INT but I still have to hear what he think about memorizing more spell. I looked at the bladesinger and it's awesome. A great alternative to the spellsinger and much more playable. any input as to which elf subrace to use. The kit suggest the gray elf or high elf but it's only a suggestion. I won't forget my armor...and they WILL be surprised for sure. Except for the usual mithril chain shirt of twilight +X in 3.5 they don't see wizard in armor much ;) The_Swords_Master As for which type of race, it really does not matter. You might want to base it on the character's personality.
#9 faraer Jun 27, 2009 12:11:28	Be warned, though, that some DM's view the bladesinger kit to be overpowered. Including Colin McComb, its creator, who later thought of PHBR8 The Complete Book of Elves as something of a youthful indiscretion. You might want to base it on the character's personality. Yes. These rules exist to represent character concepts, not the other way round.
#10 theswordsmaster Jun 27, 2009 12:29:16	I'll probably used the standard elves then. As for the "overpoweredness" of the bladesinger, I don't think it's gonna be a problem for my DM. We're used to being almost always overwhelmed by his encounter so every bit of power we can get is put to good use. With Skills & Power I've got to "buy" the school I want to cast spell from but I'm sure there's one or two school I can drop in favor of other abilities like improved HD or better THAC0. I don't really like necromancy but if there's a very good reason to keep it I might change my mind. Evocation is an old classic but is it really useful in 2E. I'm kinda used to 3.5 spellcasting...going back is hard. The_Swords_Master
#11 mock26 Jun 27, 2009 14:25:09	If I had to choose I would probably opt for doing away with Necromancy. Evocation is always a good standby, and do not forget about the illusions. Talk to your DM about how he uses them. If he treats illusions as being like holographic projections that everyone can see then definitely keep illusions. Improved Phantasmal Force (2nd level) is a great spell for hiding! My players have used it create a false wall in a room and then hid behind the wall while some powerful monsters went on by. If, however, the DM treats them like 3rd edition where you have to target individual minds then you might consider scrapping illusion as well. Also, find out what spells he is allowing and what source books. Specifically, find out if he will allow you to use the Wizard's Spell Compendium books. There are a LOT of spells in there, more so than what is just in the Player's Handbook. Find out what spells he will allow and once you have that list then start reading through the spells of the various schools of magic and start picking spells that you think you would find useful. Rate them all on a scale of 1 to 5 and when you are done see which schools of magic have the best rating (the most spells you would like) and which have the least. This will help you choose which ones to select. As I said earlier I have been running my 2nd edition campaign for 9 years now and if you have any questions shoot me a PM with your e-mail address. Also, if your DM is looking for a fellow 2nd edition DM to bounce ideas off of, please offer to him my services. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john. PS Be sure to pick up a hammer and a sack/box full of nails! You would be suprised at how useful they are, especially if you have to nail a door shut!