3.5/4e Hybrid "Shadowdale" module help? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

3.5/4e Hybrid "Shadowdale" module help?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
greekgeorge
Apr 27, 2009 15:57:47 Hey gang,

Okay, I have a challenge and would luv a little input from you, the D&D Realms gaming community.

Back in the summer, my long-running 3.5 game suddenly halted, and we left off before the end of the hardback module "Shadowdale". I've been playing 4e since it came out, and over these months, I've not touched a drop of 3.5...not because I hate it or anything, just have not.

So this coming weekend, suddenly, it appears we are gonna get together and try to at least wrap the dern 3.5 arc. As I started to look back through the final battles and prep, I shuddered with the vast array of spells and rules I'll need to have in memory, with at least 3 sets of flying, magic-spell/ability using baddies...probably all at once!

I find myself wanting to run "my" side of things 4e style, with a balanced encounter-difficulty meter, and some psuedo-4e stat blocks for the baddies and their mounts. Not because I am lazy, but I want this to be a fun reunion and not a drudgery of 2/3 of the players trying to figure out "backwards" to 3.5 rules again.

It will be 6 level 12 PCs... against at least 2 Skymages, the Zhent Captain on her flying mount, and her 4 flying bodyguards. I tried to generalize to keep from putting spoilers in here. Also, I would like to use "minion" ideas to set up the Zhentil Keep forces manning the Twisted Tower, to include archers, ballistae, and anyone who fights on the ground.

Any thoughts?
#2
krownhunter07
Apr 27, 2009 16:56:26 My first advice; try to make it 4e rules. Find creatures that best fit the ones in the adventure, convert the PC's and run with it.
#3
lord_karsus
Apr 27, 2009 17:06:30 -A story is a story. Stories (99.9% of the time) are not contingent on rules. You can use a 1e module using 2e rules, a 2e module using 3e rules, and a 3e module using 4e rules. All you need to do is translate the stats of things like monsters, or NPCs, or whatever else. I know there are some difficulties on direct translations with some things, like, say magic weapons, so in cases like that, for the sake of ensuring that things actually run, you and the players might have to hand wave some things, so that magic weapons, or potions, or wands, or specific spells, or whatever, have always worked like that.
#4
rauric
Apr 27, 2009 18:12:11 There are balista rules in the DDI I think. Minions are easy enough there dmg could be about 7 and their defenses should follow the DMGs guidlines a bit. Give them glaives to add some reach to them. Make the archers minions also.
Since the pcs don't have much access to flying spells at 12 this may be a tougher fight than it would have been in 3E. Perhaps there should only be 2 flying attackers. Perhaps 2 skymages and the boss. Does the Captain really need bodyguards in the air? Maybe give the pcs a chance to unchain the other flying mounts before the enemy can get on them. That may make for an interesting encounter. Unless
#5
greekgeorge
Apr 27, 2009 18:49:48 Um, maybe I was unclear on one point.. and you guys sometimes respond like you are talking to a 12 year old noob, meaning you are sweet and helpful, and make me smile. ;)

I have to run this in 3.5. In fact, if [when] I convert it, I will lose at least 3 players. So for now, this stays 3.5...

My point was, I want to use the 4e "style" of making monsters/baddies with simple sets of stats. Just trying to DM Eregul the Freestave and his mount is plenty tough, but the way the story has played out, it would make no sense for the Zhents not to mount an all-out defense against the party of 6.

Instead of trying to refresh the guys for 3.5 down to all the nitty gritty details, I would rather use some 4e design theory at least to make my DM job easier, and make it a smoother, dynamic, roleplay-heavy "epic" battle... after all, the defeat of ZK at Shadowdale led to the eventual fall of the whole Keep! It's a huge moment, IMO, in Realms history...
#6
lord_karsus
Apr 27, 2009 21:12:52 -So, use abbreviated stats, then. I know, whenever I DM, the only pertinent information I take out from the Monster Manual, or DMG, if it's an NPC with class levels, is their HP, AC, INT, Speed, Attacks/Damage, Saves, Special Abilities (which includes special skill bonuses, if applicable) and Items (if applicable). What's the point of including how many ranks in Swim someone/something has? If you want him/her/it to swim away, if something in the story happens to take place in water, then so be it; what do the players know if you're arbitrarily making things up?
#7
ScrivenerofDoom
Apr 29, 2009 6:23:18
(snip) My point was, I want to use the 4e "style" of making monsters/baddies with simple sets of stats. Just trying to DM Eregul the Freestave and his mount is plenty tough, but the way the story has played out, it would make no sense for the Zhents not to mount an all-out defense against the party of 6. (snip)

I understand what you're wanting to do in one sense but not in another.

What I do understand is that you want simpler stat blocks. What I don't understand is that you already have the stat blocks because they're in the book (OK, so most of them have errors but WotC never did master 3.5E stat blocks).

Does this mean you are proposing to rewrite the stat blocks to be a bit more like 4E?

I can understand that because it would make DMing that much easier... but it means you have to go back and redo parts of the stat blocks possibly costing you more time and effort than just simply restarting the adventure in 4E and converting on the fly (quite simple, really, especially if you have access to the Compendium).

However, if you want to go with the 4E-style blocks then I suppose you're really looking to change the spells as that is the most problematic part of DMing NPCs after 10th or so level. Are you planning to give spellcasters "at-wills"? Once you answer that question it will make it easier to offer up some ideas for your consideration.

PS: I've put my questions in bold so that they stand out.
#8
Diffan
Apr 29, 2009 9:41:37 I'm trying to understand what your asking for here so I'm going to use an example enemy from Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave:

Book stats:
Starweaver Bestra Mornscroll; CR 5
hp 36 (5 HD)
_________________________________________________________________
Female Chondathan human cleric 5 (Shar)
NE Medium humanoid
Init -1; Senses Listen +3, Spot +3
Languages Chondathan, Common, Giant
_________________________________________________________________
AC 18, touch 9, flat-footed 18
(+8 armor, -1 Dex, +1 shield)
Fort +7, Ref +1, Will +10
_________________________________________________________________
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Melee mwk heavy mace +6 (1d8+2) (includeds divine favor) or
Melee spontaneous inflict serious wounds +5 melee touch (3d8+5, Will DC 17 half) or
Melee spontaneous inflict moderate wounds +5 melee touch (2d8+5, Will DC 16 half) or
Melee spontaneous inflict light wounds +5 melee touch (1d8+5, Will DC 15 half)
Base Atk +3; Grp +4
Special Actions rebuke undead 4/day (+3, 2d6+6, 5th), spontaneous casting (inflict spells)
Combat Gear wand of cure light wounds (30 charges), scroll of divine power (DC 5 caster level check [+4] to activate)
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 5th):
3rd--bestow curse (DC 17), blacklight* (DC 16), dispel magic
2nd--cure moderate wounds, detect thoughts* (DC 15; CL 6th), hold person (DC 16), spiritual weapon (CL 4th; chakram: +6 melee, 1d8+1/x3)
1st--bane (DC 15), divine favor (CL 4th), doom (DC 15), obscuring mist*, shield of faith
0--detet magic, guidance (2; CL 6th), read magic, resistance
*: Domain spell. Deity: Shar. Domains: Darkness, Knowledge
_________________________________________________________________
Abilities Str 13, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12
SQ aura of evil
Feats Blind-Fight^B, Discipline, Initiate of Shar, Shadow Weave Magic
Skills Bluff +9, Concentration +7, Diplomacy +3, Hide +1, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (religion) +5, Speak Language (Giant)
Possessions combat gear plus masterwork full plate, masterwork light steel shield, masterwork heavy mace, cloak of resistance +1, disc of secrets, 18 gp.

Now something you might be more interested in:
Starweaver Bestra Mornscroll; CR 5
Medium humanoid
Female Chondathan human cleric 5
_________________________________________________________________
Initiative -1; Senses Listen +3, Spot +3
HP 36 (5 HD)
AC 18, touch 8, flat-footed 18
Fort +7, Ref +1, Will +10
Speed 4 squares
_________________________________________________________________
Melee mwk heavy mace +6 (1d8+2) (includeds divine favor) or
Melee inflict wounds +5 melee touch (1d8 per level +5, Will DC 14 + spell level)
Base Atk +3; Grp +4
Special Actions rebuke undead 4/day (+3, 2d6+6, 5th), spontaneous casting (inflict spells)
Combat Gear wand of cure light wounds (30 charges), scroll of divine power (DC 5 caster level check [+4] to activate)
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 5th):
3rd--bestow curse (DC 17), blacklight* (DC 16), dispel magic
2nd--cure moderate wounds, detect thoughts* (DC 15; CL 6th), hold person (DC 16), spiritual weapon (CL 4th; chakram: +6 melee, 1d8+1/x3)
1st--bane (DC 15), divine favor (CL 4th), doom (DC 15), obscuring mist*, shield of faith
0--detet magic, guidance (2; CL 6th), read magic, resistance
*: Domain spell. Deity: Shar. Domains: Darkness, Knowledge
_________________________________________________________________
Alignment Neutral Evil; Languages Chondathan, Common, Giant
Skills Bluff +9, Concentration +7, Intimidate +2
Feats Blind-Fight^B, Shadow Weave Magic
Str 13, Dex 8, Wis 16
Con 14, Int 10, Cha 12
Equipment Combat gear plus masterwork full plate, masterwork light steel shield, masterwork heavy mace, cloak of resistance +1, disc of secrets, 18 gp.

Not sure how much that helps but it may help give you an idea of what your trying to accomplish.
#9
greekgeorge
Apr 29, 2009 16:12:36 @ Diffan - Thank you, it is "cleaner and neater" the 2nd time...

@ Scriv - I guess it just boils down to, given that I want to run this awesome aerial battle between the Zhent garrison and major NPCs, and the PCs who earned the help of Pegasi, and that I can't [yet] convert this campaign to 4e, but have to finish this one last session in 3.5, I was trying to accomplish a short-hand version for my side of it.

I've never been able to memorize spells by their mere name, and when this module is written from like, 23 different books... I don't want a pile of books to flip back and forth. I figured if I used even a little 4e design mentality on my side of the battle, I could make it a cooler, dynamic, challenging battle. I figure I can use a wand in-hand for Eregul the Freestave as a sort of At-Will.

I was also looking for a thread for anyone who ran and/or converted this module. I want to give the players my best, make it a battle for the history books, but I never realized after a mere 9 months, how much I would begrudge having to slip back into 3.5, and I ran 3.x from day 1, often!

I certainly would love to run this, converted completely, into 4e... but at present, I can't. As I may have said before, a few of my old friends who have played with me for years, have so much 4e hate, they won't even look at it or talk about it, and have threatened to quit "if" I convert. These are people I've never fought with about anything before, and some of whom have played through 1 or 2 edition changes with me before.
#10
rauric
Apr 29, 2009 20:30:10 Sorry to hear that. 4E is cake to run compared to 3E IMO. I look foward to planning my games now. Good luck, I am not a big numbers guy and probably cannot help ya much more.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 greekgeorge Apr 27, 2009 15:57:47	Hey gang, Okay, I have a challenge and would luv a little input from you, the D&D Realms gaming community. Back in the summer, my long-running 3.5 game suddenly halted, and we left off before the end of the hardback module "Shadowdale". I've been playing 4e since it came out, and over these months, I've not touched a drop of 3.5...not because I hate it or anything, just have not. So this coming weekend, suddenly, it appears we are gonna get together and try to at least wrap the dern 3.5 arc. As I started to look back through the final battles and prep, I shuddered with the vast array of spells and rules I'll need to have in memory, with at least 3 sets of flying, magic-spell/ability using baddies...probably all at once! I find myself wanting to run "my" side of things 4e style, with a balanced encounter-difficulty meter, and some psuedo-4e stat blocks for the baddies and their mounts. Not because I am lazy, but I want this to be a fun reunion and not a drudgery of 2/3 of the players trying to figure out "backwards" to 3.5 rules again. It will be 6 level 12 PCs... against at least 2 Skymages, the Zhent Captain on her flying mount, and her 4 flying bodyguards. I tried to generalize to keep from putting spoilers in here. Also, I would like to use "minion" ideas to set up the Zhentil Keep forces manning the Twisted Tower, to include archers, ballistae, and anyone who fights on the ground. Any thoughts?
#2 krownhunter07 Apr 27, 2009 16:56:26	My first advice; try to make it 4e rules. Find creatures that best fit the ones in the adventure, convert the PC's and run with it.
#3 lord_karsus Apr 27, 2009 17:06:30	-A story is a story. Stories (99.9% of the time) are not contingent on rules. You can use a 1e module using 2e rules, a 2e module using 3e rules, and a 3e module using 4e rules. All you need to do is translate the stats of things like monsters, or NPCs, or whatever else. I know there are some difficulties on direct translations with some things, like, say magic weapons, so in cases like that, for the sake of ensuring that things actually run, you and the players might have to hand wave some things, so that magic weapons, or potions, or wands, or specific spells, or whatever, have always worked like that.
#4 rauric Apr 27, 2009 18:12:11	There are balista rules in the DDI I think. Minions are easy enough there dmg could be about 7 and their defenses should follow the DMGs guidlines a bit. Give them glaives to add some reach to them. Make the archers minions also. Since the pcs don't have much access to flying spells at 12 this may be a tougher fight than it would have been in 3E. Perhaps there should only be 2 flying attackers. Perhaps 2 skymages and the boss. Does the Captain really need bodyguards in the air? Maybe give the pcs a chance to unchain the other flying mounts before the enemy can get on them. That may make for an interesting encounter. Unless
#5 greekgeorge Apr 27, 2009 18:49:48	Um, maybe I was unclear on one point.. and you guys sometimes respond like you are talking to a 12 year old noob, meaning you are sweet and helpful, and make me smile. ;) I have to run this in 3.5. In fact, if [when] I convert it, I will lose at least 3 players. So for now, this stays 3.5... My point was, I want to use the 4e "style" of making monsters/baddies with simple sets of stats. Just trying to DM Eregul the Freestave and his mount is plenty tough, but the way the story has played out, it would make no sense for the Zhents not to mount an all-out defense against the party of 6. Instead of trying to refresh the guys for 3.5 down to all the nitty gritty details, I would rather use some 4e design theory at least to make my DM job easier, and make it a smoother, dynamic, roleplay-heavy "epic" battle... after all, the defeat of ZK at Shadowdale led to the eventual fall of the whole Keep! It's a huge moment, IMO, in Realms history...
#6 lord_karsus Apr 27, 2009 21:12:52	-So, use abbreviated stats, then. I know, whenever I DM, the only pertinent information I take out from the Monster Manual, or DMG, if it's an NPC with class levels, is their HP, AC, INT, Speed, Attacks/Damage, Saves, Special Abilities (which includes special skill bonuses, if applicable) and Items (if applicable). What's the point of including how many ranks in Swim someone/something has? If you want him/her/it to swim away, if something in the story happens to take place in water, then so be it; what do the players know if you're arbitrarily making things up?
#7 ScrivenerofDoom Apr 29, 2009 6:23:18	(snip) My point was, I want to use the 4e "style" of making monsters/baddies with simple sets of stats. Just trying to DM Eregul the Freestave and his mount is plenty tough, but the way the story has played out, it would make no sense for the Zhents not to mount an all-out defense against the party of 6. (snip) I understand what you're wanting to do in one sense but not in another. What I do understand is that you want simpler stat blocks. What I don't understand is that you already have the stat blocks because they're in the book (OK, so most of them have errors but WotC never did master 3.5E stat blocks). Does this mean you are proposing to rewrite the stat blocks to be a bit more like 4E? I can understand that because it would make DMing that much easier... but it means you have to go back and redo parts of the stat blocks possibly costing you more time and effort than just simply restarting the adventure in 4E and converting on the fly (quite simple, really, especially if you have access to the Compendium). However, if you want to go with the 4E-style blocks then I suppose you're really looking to change the spells as that is the most problematic part of DMing NPCs after 10th or so level. Are you planning to give spellcasters "at-wills"? Once you answer that question it will make it easier to offer up some ideas for your consideration. PS: I've put my questions in bold so that they stand out.
#8 Diffan Apr 29, 2009 9:41:37	I'm trying to understand what your asking for here so I'm going to use an example enemy from Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave: Book stats: Starweaver Bestra Mornscroll; CR 5 hp 36 (5 HD) _________________________________________________________________ Female Chondathan human cleric 5 (Shar) NE Medium humanoid Init -1; Senses Listen +3, Spot +3 Languages Chondathan, Common, Giant _________________________________________________________________ AC 18, touch 9, flat-footed 18 (+8 armor, -1 Dex, +1 shield) Fort +7, Ref +1, Will +10 _________________________________________________________________ Speed 20 ft. (4 squares) Melee mwk heavy mace +6 (1d8+2) (includeds divine favor) or Melee spontaneous inflict serious wounds +5 melee touch (3d8+5, Will DC 17 half) or Melee spontaneous inflict moderate wounds +5 melee touch (2d8+5, Will DC 16 half) or Melee spontaneous inflict light wounds +5 melee touch (1d8+5, Will DC 15 half) Base Atk +3; Grp +4 Special Actions rebuke undead 4/day (+3, 2d6+6, 5th), spontaneous casting (inflict spells) Combat Gear wand of cure light wounds (30 charges), scroll of divine power (DC 5 caster level check [+4] to activate) Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 5th): 3rd--bestow curse (DC 17), blacklight* (DC 16), dispel magic 2nd--cure moderate wounds, detect thoughts* (DC 15; CL 6th), hold person (DC 16), spiritual weapon (CL 4th; chakram: +6 melee, 1d8+1/x3) 1st--bane (DC 15), divine favor (CL 4th), doom (DC 15), obscuring mist, shield of faith* 0--detet magic, guidance (2; CL 6th), read magic, resistance : Domain spell. Deity: Shar. Domains:* Darkness, Knowledge _________________________________________________________________ Abilities Str 13, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12 SQ aura of evil Feats Blind-Fight^B, Discipline, Initiate of Shar, Shadow Weave Magic Skills Bluff +9, Concentration +7, Diplomacy +3, Hide +1, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (religion) +5, Speak Language (Giant) Possessions combat gear plus masterwork full plate, masterwork light steel shield, masterwork heavy mace, cloak of resistance +1, disc of secrets, 18 gp. Now something you might be more interested in: Starweaver Bestra Mornscroll; CR 5 Medium humanoid Female Chondathan human cleric 5 _________________________________________________________________ Initiative -1; Senses Listen +3, Spot +3 HP 36 (5 HD) AC 18, touch 8, flat-footed 18 Fort +7, Ref +1, Will +10 Speed 4 squares _________________________________________________________________ Melee mwk heavy mace +6 (1d8+2) (includeds divine favor) or Melee inflict wounds +5 melee touch (1d8 per level +5, Will DC 14 + spell level) Base Atk +3; Grp +4 Special Actions rebuke undead 4/day (+3, 2d6+6, 5th), spontaneous casting (inflict spells) Combat Gear wand of cure light wounds (30 charges), scroll of divine power (DC 5 caster level check [+4] to activate) Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 5th): 3rd--bestow curse (DC 17), blacklight* (DC 16), dispel magic 2nd--cure moderate wounds, detect thoughts* (DC 15; CL 6th), hold person (DC 16), spiritual weapon (CL 4th; chakram: +6 melee, 1d8+1/x3) 1st--bane (DC 15), divine favor (CL 4th), doom (DC 15), obscuring mist, shield of faith* 0--detet magic, guidance (2; CL 6th), read magic, resistance : Domain spell. Deity: Shar. Domains:* Darkness, Knowledge _________________________________________________________________ Alignment Neutral Evil; Languages Chondathan, Common, Giant Skills Bluff +9, Concentration +7, Intimidate +2 Feats Blind-Fight^B, Shadow Weave Magic Str 13, Dex 8, Wis 16 Con 14, Int 10, Cha 12 Equipment Combat gear plus masterwork full plate, masterwork light steel shield, masterwork heavy mace, cloak of resistance +1, disc of secrets, 18 gp. Not sure how much that helps but it may help give you an idea of what your trying to accomplish.
#9 greekgeorge Apr 29, 2009 16:12:36	@ Diffan - Thank you, it is "cleaner and neater" the 2nd time... @ Scriv - I guess it just boils down to, given that I want to run this awesome aerial battle between the Zhent garrison and major NPCs, and the PCs who earned the help of Pegasi, and that I can't [yet] convert this campaign to 4e, but have to finish this one last session in 3.5, I was trying to accomplish a short-hand version for my side of it. I've never been able to memorize spells by their mere name, and when this module is written from like, 23 different books... I don't want a pile of books to flip back and forth. I figured if I used even a little 4e design mentality on my side of the battle, I could make it a cooler, dynamic, challenging battle. I figure I can use a wand in-hand for Eregul the Freestave as a sort of At-Will. I was also looking for a thread for anyone who ran and/or converted this module. I want to give the players my best, make it a battle for the history books, but I never realized after a mere 9 months, how much I would begrudge having to slip back into 3.5, and I ran 3.x from day 1, often! I certainly would love to run this, converted completely, into 4e... but at present, I can't. As I may have said before, a few of my old friends who have played with me for years, have so much 4e hate, they won't even look at it or talk about it, and have threatened to quit "if" I convert. These are people I've never fought with about anything before, and some of whom have played through 1 or 2 edition changes with me before.
#10 rauric Apr 29, 2009 20:30:10	Sorry to hear that. 4E is cake to run compared to 3E IMO. I look foward to planning my games now. Good luck, I am not a big numbers guy and probably cannot help ya much more.