From what I understand, all the surface drow were forced back underground or 'redeemed' and changed back to the original 'dark elves'.
In the 4e FRCS, I can find no mention of this occurance, and there's no mention of it in the Drow entry in the FRPG. Is Wizards just ignoring this whole trilogy and the history it established, or is there something I missed?
Eventually, this will become a nuisance if we don't get a more clear explanation. My gaming group hasn't had anyone even consider a Drow PC yet, and I believe this "up in the air" state of things will ensure we don't for a long time. The faerzress-induced neo-descent you mentioned combines with the death of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun to leave far fewer reasons for topside drow, in my opinion. I'd be tempted to ignore the series, myself, if it hadn't changed the landscape so.
The novels seemed to written with the goal of returning drow to monster status, while the FRPG offers them as a PC race. What gives?
-Drow who did not have "pure" Miyeritari blood in their ancestry, or were not of the Church of Eilistraee: Nothing happened.
-That's all there is to it.
-Drow who had "pure" Miyeritari blood in their ancestry, or were of the Church of Eilistraee: The curse that transformed them into Drow was removed, thus transforming them back into their original Dark Elven forms. In D&D stats, this would translate to "Wild Elf" (3e), or "Elf" (4e).
-Drow who did not have "pure" Miyeritari blood in their ancestry, or were not of the Church of Eilistraee: Nothing happened.
-That's all there is to it.
Wow, that's pretty concise. Maybe I was tired when I read the last few chapters. I would've thought I'd have caught this. Maybe I did and simply forgot. :shrugs:
It might be nice to see how Q'arlynd Melarn has fared since the redemption. He was pretty much the only character of interest in the entire series, for me.
By "pure", are we talking "free of the taint of Wendonai"? I do seem to recall that much being hinted (or even stated), though it's been a while since I finished the series. I might just reread, in parts, the last novel.
By "pure", are we talking "free of the taint of Wendonai"? I do seem to recall that much being hinted (or even stated), though it's been a while since I finished the series. I might just reread, in parts, the last novel.
-Right. I like to use quotation marks because the whole idea borders on impossible. The Descent of the Drow happened about 12,000 years ago, in game terms. When it did happen, Miyeritaari survivors (Miyeritar had already been destroyed by the Dark Disaster) and Ilythiiri merged together to form the first bunch of Drow settlements in the Underdark, Telantiwar and Guallidurth, only the latter of which still survives. It's borderline impossible and ridiculous that a "pure" bloodline of Miyeritaari blood only would exist in the present, given the amount of intermingling and time.
-Right. I like to use quotation marks because the whole idea borders on impossible. The Descent of the Drow happened about 12,000 years ago, in game terms. When it did happen, Miyeritaari survivors (Miyeritar had already been destroyed by the Dark Disaster) and Ilythiiri merged together to form the first bunch of Drow settlements in the Underdark, Telantiwar and Guallidurth, only the latter of which still survives. It's borderline impossible and ridiculous that a "pure" bloodline of Miyeritaari blood only would exist in the present, given the amount of intermingling and time.
Agreed. It would be a very small number, if any, who made it through "pure".
Perhaps that's the in-game reason needed to explain why the redeemed dark elves haven't been worth mentioning at all in 4E--they're just too few to matter. A very, very few "pure" individuals combined with the surviving worshippers of the "Masked Lady" really wouldn't amount to many at all.
Well, that'll be my in-game/metagame reasoning, at least. Sucks to be the rare good-natured drow who wasn't a servant of Eilistraee. Talk about being "stuck on the outside looking in".
-All in all, it's something that I ignore (though, I like the concept of the Masked Lady), so...
-Drow who had "pure" Miyeritari blood in their ancestry, or were of the Church of Eilistraee: The curse that transformed them into Drow was removed, thus transforming them back into their original Dark Elven forms. In D&D stats, this would translate to "Wild Elf" (3e), or "Elf" (4e).
Would the pure form of Drow be "Elf" (4e) or "Eladrin"? They seem to share a lot more in common with Eladrin... at least mechanically.
Would the pure form of Drow be "Elf" (4e) or "Eladrin"? They seem to share a lot more in common with Eladrin... at least mechanically.
-No. Dark Elves are/were "Wild" Elves, which are now "Elves".
-No. Dark Elves are/were "Wild" Elves, which are now "Elves".
Huh. I wonder why the designers chose to go with a more "eladrin" mechanic for the 4e dark elves. Anyways... neat.
-No. Dark Elves are/were "Wild" Elves, which are now "Elves".
Well ... that is, of course a retcon done in TGHotR. Matter of factly, according to that they were not "wild" elves, but "green" elves, who later became "wilds" and "woods" too, methinks. Previous lore (i.e. all published before late 2007) had pre-Descent dark elves as more akin to moon elves than any other.
As for "good" drow not being adressed by the removal of the "curse" ... there is always the next sourcebook or novel, you know. They minced much of the lore that has gone before, not least in the LP series, so who knows whether another set of info deals with good "drow" too. Then again, why should they? The 4E Realms are home to adventurers who apparently do not face much of the prejeduce that has accompanied their namesakes of the previous millenia. A flame-headed genasi might walk alongside a horn-skulled tiefling (with hooves and tail, of course) and a cool-looking drow ... and no-one really takes notice. And there hardly is a difference between the races these days as well, at least when it comes to rule-related stuff. Who'd play a plain human when there are no rule or flair "penalties" playing a far "cooler" race these days?
I like the Wendonai idea. But I don't like the reversing to Miyeritari. I can't believe the "pure" blood mentioned. The Illythiiri were the majority of pre-Descent. And they were certainly not the Green elves.
... yet, in stepped Brian and changed the lore that went before. If he had made the elves fey-something like they did in 4E, evolution-wise, no problem. But instead of finally removing nigh-pre-AD&D lore about the "green" elves from the sourcebooks, he* actually turned it a little worse. *sigh* Just MHO.
BTW, the whole thing of the curse-reversal is quite spongey, as there are many loop-holes and gaps yet to be plugged. Though I am not sure whether I actually want to know more ...
*Or the designer responsible for this section of TGHotR.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
Well ... that is, of course a retcon done in TGHotR.
-Indeed, it is, but it is canon nonetheless.
Matter of factly, according to that they were not "wild" elves, but "green" elves, who later became "wilds" and "woods" too, methinks.
-Green Elves, which have, of course, been retconned into "Wild" Elves.
Previous lore (i.e. all published before late 2007) had pre-Descent dark elves as more akin to moon elves than any other.
-I disagree. They would be more akin to Sun Elves than Moon Elves.
-Indeed, it is, but it is canon nonetheless.
It is canon now. And that's no news, LK.
-Green Elves, which have, of course, been retconned into "Wild" Elves.
I'd rather put that like: lore has been advanced, not retconned. At least in the sense that we usually use "retcon" hereabouts.
-I disagree. They would be more akin to Sun Elves than Moon Elves.
Well, here I was not speaking of feelings, but existing (AFAIK) lore again. If I was going by my own impression of the Ilythiiri and Miyeritari, I'd place them next to the suns/golds too.
I see the Miyeritari more like Moon-Elves. The northern Wood Elves behaved more like Moon Elves, and it stands to reason that the Miyertari followed suit (they seem to behave much like whatever groups are around them, possibly making them one of the most 'adaptive' Elven subgroups around). When in Rome...
Ergo, the third canon group of Dark Elves - the Sethomiir - probably took on cultural similarities of the Star Elves, or local wood (half) Elves, and/or even some of the traits of the Raumathar humans (perhaps some slavic-like material would be appropriate for these dark Elves?).
They learn, and they adapt. Its the primary trait of Dark Elves. When they are beaten, they examine their shortcomings, make allowances, and then don't let it happen again. They take wheatever parts of the surrounding culutres work for them and fit it into their own society, thereby evolving as a people, if not as individuals.
You may beat a dark Elf once, pehaps twice... but soomer or later he is going to know you better then you know yourself.
We need a Jarlaxle smiley.... maybe I'll work on that...
They minced much of the lore that has gone before, not least in the LP series, so who knows whether another set of info deals with good "drow" too. Then again, why should they?
I think the same thing, perhaps for different reasons, though. I miss the Vhaeraunites and Eilistraee's worshippers. Even if I never played such as a PC, the world was richer for their being out there somewhere (in my opinion, at least).
At the same time, it could be that the original niche of the drow, that off badass villains, needed to be reemphasized.
I will continue to play them, or not, much as before. I never did get around to playing a Cleric of Vhaeraun...kind of a shame, looking back on it.
The 4E Realms are home to adventurers who apparently do not face much of the prejeduce that has accompanied their namesakes of the previous millenia. A flame-headed genasi might walk alongside a horn-skulled tiefling (with hooves and tail, of course) and a cool-looking drow ... and no-one really takes notice.
I think this depends more upon where you are. In some places this might be true; and I agree it is more true in general than it was pre-Spellplague. In many places, though, certain races are still going to be distrusted, or even feared, with drow likely at the top of that list. There were several small allusions to this sprinkled throughout the FRCG (or FRPG, can't remember which). The info for Westgate and Baldur's Gate comes to mind.
I liked the way Rich Baker handled the Tiefling "Sorceror" in Swordmage. Many didn't know what he was. Some thought he was some type of devil or monster of some sort, while others did recognize him as a tiefling (at least Geran did). No one, though, had a neutral response to his fiendish appearance; and his race definitely made him stand-out. It seemed fitting.
And there hardly is a difference between the races these days as well, at least when it comes to rule-related stuff. Who'd play a plain human when there are no rule or flair "penalties" playing a far "cooler" race these days?
If there are fewer significant mechanical differences, as you suggest, that shouldn't make anyone less likely to play a Human in 4E. Humans are the most versatile race, mechanically, and can excel in any class. They still get their bonus feat and skill, plus a bonus @will power and the Human Defense Bonuses. I hardly think that penalties are needed for "cooler" races, as their mechanics aren't any more dramatic or powerful than the Human mechanics. The racial mechanics are pretty balanced, for the most part.
Sometimes you want to play a Genasi Wizard from Calimshan, sometimes a Human Rogue from Baldur's Gate, and sometimes a Drow Ranger from .... er...somewhere...
I think there's less reason with 4E to make the outlandish racial choice, just for some mechanical benefit, than ever before. Granted, there are still advantageous selections to be made. Such choices were intentionally built into 4E, after all, such as Elf Ranger, Eladrin Wizard, Tiefling Warlock, and so on... They aren't absurd as in the past, in my opinion, since the abolishing of the "Level Adjustment" races.My view could be coloured, though, by the fact that no one in our gaming circle has ever come to me wanting approval for their "Half-Dragon Half-Umberhulk Ogremage Sorceror PC".
I'd rather put that like: lore has been advanced, not retconned. At least in the sense that we usually use "retcon" hereabouts.
-It is a retcon, in that there was no explanation for the "change". If there was, at least there would be an explanation. But, since it suddenly became "Green Elves are now Wild Elves, Wood Elves- a subrace that is completely new, and impossible, going by previously established information- are Copper Elves, and some individuals that used to simply be Green Elves could be considered either 'Wild' or 'Wood' without explanation, that's a retcon in my book. It isn't a sudden pop, like many other retcons- though, it is- because, like you said, some context is given.
Well, here I was not speaking of feelings, but existing (AFAIK) lore again. If I was going by my own impression of the Ilythiiri and Miyeritari, I'd place them next to the suns/golds too.
-Oh, okay. Gotcha.
Ergo, the third canon group of Dark Elves - the Sethomiir - probably took on cultural similarities of the Star Elves, or local wood (half) Elves, and/or even some of the traits of the Raumathar humans (perhaps some slavic-like material would be appropriate for these dark Elves?).
-The Drow of House Sethomiir were not a separate racial/ethnic group. They were Ilythiiri. The rulers of Ilythiir, until near the end, when the Hune's were tapped for the job, and the Sethomiir left for the Yuirwood/Thay area. It would only really be after they left that they'd begin to develop in ways "deviant" to traditional Ilythiiri culture (which would shortly be turned to mush-mosh anyway).
The 4E Realms are home to adventurers who apparently do not face much of the prejeduce that has accompanied their namesakes of the previous millenia.
I don't know... The town of Loudwater doesn't let in any "monstrous races" (as per the FRCG), and I see a number of instances in the FRCG where an organization is said to not like any but members of their own (race). The 4e FR seems pretty xenophobic to me.
Who'd play a plain human when there are no rule or flair "penalties" playing a far "cooler" race these days?
People who want to role-play a human? People who like the benefits that the human race grants them? The human race's benefits are pretty awesome in 4e...
I wonder if the Hune drow have something to do with that House of Illythiiri.
-Presumably. The Hunes that exist today, such as Valas Hune, are descendants of the Hunes that ruled Ilythiir in the last days of the Ilythiiri Empire.
-The Drow of House Sethomiir were not a separate racial/ethnic group. They were Ilythiiri.
... and as such, they were pre-Descent "dark elves", not drow. ;)
Cyber-Dave ... don't you think that when a race is solely determined by the benefits it gets (there are no real penalties, are there - rule- or flair-wise) it'll soon does not matter what race do you play? It is much like the classes thing. They pumped up the "lame" classes (like fighters) and curbed the "all-too-powerful" ones ... to end up with some sort of equilibrium or "balance". Diversity went out of the window .. or rather is simply determined by who deals more damage (and much more so than in any previous edition) by utilizing this or that "ability". But that's just MHO.
Agreed. It would be a very small number, if any, who made it through "pure".
Perhaps that's the in-game reason needed to explain why the redeemed dark elves haven't been worth mentioning at all in 4E--they're just too few to matter. A very, very few "pure" individuals combined with the surviving worshippers of the "Masked Lady" really wouldn't amount to many at all.
Well, that'll be my in-game/metagame reasoning, at least. Sucks to be the rare good-natured drow who wasn't a servant of Eilistraee. Talk about being "stuck on the outside looking in".
The whole storyline never was about "Drow Redemption". Its purpose was clearly aimed to get rid off Elistraee with handing out a viable justification for the event. Now if you have this grandious story and you as the author decide for a particular character to "leave the stage" you have a certain set of options to accomplish that. Well after you decided for this figure to "die" you must find a way that fits the figure and the whole context in which it existed. Giving her the opportunity to at least partically fullfill the premise she embodied "redemption for the Drow" let her vanish in a blaze of glory. The statement that "Drow found redemption" wasnt meant to have an effect on the Drow as a whole. It was only to grant her death some meaning.
Well ... that is, of course a retcon done in TGHotR. Matter of factly, according to that they were not "wild" elves, but "green" elves, who later became "wilds" and "woods" too, methinks. Previous lore (i.e. all published before late 2007) had pre-Descent dark elves as more akin to moon elves than any other.
As for "good" drow not being adressed by the removal of the "curse" ... there is always the next sourcebook or novel, you know. They minced much of the lore that has gone before, not least in the LP series, so who knows whether another set of info deals with good "drow" too. Then again, why should they? The 4E Realms are home to adventurers who apparently do not face much of the prejeduce that has accompanied their namesakes of the previous millenia. A flame-headed genasi might walk alongside a horn-skulled tiefling (with hooves and tail, of course) and a cool-looking drow ... and no-one really takes notice. And there hardly is a difference between the races these days as well, at least when it comes to rule-related stuff. Who'd play a plain human when there are no rule or flair "penalties" playing a far "cooler" race these days?
Agreed! In addition, it has been mentioned that the miyeritari elves have been great spellcasters and that all aspects of their culture have been very sophisticated. That doesnt sound very much as if they have been wild or wood elfs. I vote for Eladrin not only as "redeemed Drow", but now since Drow lost their +Int bonus actually as a given minority within Drow society as well.
As I see it the Miyeritari are somewhere between Sun- and Moonelfs. To me the Sun- or Goldelfs are the "grandious elfs". They have this Jupiter and Sun quality. From their point of view life is joy and passion. Moon- or Silverelfs are "heartly elfs". Where everything is about felt or perceived emotions. The "Miyeritari" have this neptunian aspect. Where the world is a mystique and romantic place, where the grandious meets the intimate.
-Presumably. The Hunes that exist today, such as Valas Hune, are descendants of the Hunes that ruled Ilythiir in the last days of the Ilythiiri Empire.
Are there any more Houses (surnames) that can be traced thus?
-The Drow of House Sethomiir were not a separate racial/ethnic group. They were Ilythiiri. The rulers of Ilythiir, until near the end, when the Hune's were tapped for the job, and the Sethomiir left for the Yuirwood/Thay area. It would only really be after they left that they'd begin to develop in ways "deviant" to traditional Ilythiiri culture (which would shortly be turned to mush-mosh anyway).
Yes, buuuuuut... what defines a seperate group?
I had always assumed that ALL the Dark Elves were of one group originally, with a small bunch moving north. Those northern Illythiiri would not have been known as Miyeritari until after they formed the nation of Miyeritar with Green Elves. Miyeritari is NOT a racial designation, because both Dark and Green Elves were part of the group. The Miyertar Dark Elves were Illythiir who were part of the nation of Miyertar. Just as those three Green-Elf nations involved in the War of Three Leaves were not seperate racial groups - we shouldn't confuse racial groups with national ones.
If you are going to assign different attributes to the Miyeritari, then you must do so with the Sethomir, While it is true that they split MUCH later from the southern Dark Elves, it stands to reason that they would develop differently over time (as did the Miyeritari). This is especially true if they out-survived the southern group - we did find some evidence of Dark Elves living on the surface in the Unapproachable east up until very recently.
I'm not saying the Sethomir would have been different the day after they moved away... but a few thousand years later? Of course there'd be differences.
The Miyeritari have been in the north for thousands of years so they are considered another ethnic group. It's long enough even for elven to develop distinct differences from the "original" dark elves from Faerie.
The whole storyline never was about "Drow Redemption". Its purpose was clearly aimed to get rid off Elistraee with handing out a viable justification for the event. Now if you have this grandious story and you as the author decide for a particular character to "leave the stage" you have a certain set of options to accomplish that. Well after you decided for this figure to "die" you must find a way that fits the figure and the whole context in which it existed. Giving her the opportunity to at least partically fullfill the premise she embodied "redemption for the Drow" let her vanish in a blaze of glory. The statement that "Drow found redemption" wasnt meant to have an effect on the Drow as a whole. It was only to grant her death some meaning.
or did wendonai just lie? he is a demon after all. and going forward you dont need to worship a goddess you can return to worshipping the seldarine and regain your true form. fearing that a good god wont love you because you believe a lie you accept the god who hates you and persecutes you. dooming yourself to suffering and torment in this life and beyond. i didnt see it as "the drow are redeemed poof myritari" its more an ongoing plot angle for people who want to play good drow. drow use drow stat modifiers before redemption chopping wood and carrying water after redemption chopping wood and carrying water.
I know human history isn't Elven history... but seriously. The Miyeriari actually had far less time to differentiate themselves from their southern cousins then the Sethomir have since.
Undrek-Thoz would be the most likely place to find the modern Sethomir, and you'll note that their society is quite a bit different then most Dark Elven ones - it is based on cooperation between ten seperate cities - something completely unheard of in the west.
I agree that the Eastern drow (Undrek'Thoz) are a bit different from the western ones. Underdark makes mixing harder and differences easier.
Sethomiir isn't a nation, it's just a single House!
... and as such, they were pre-Descent "dark elves", not drow. ;)
-Well, yes. Thank you for catching that.
Are there any more Houses (surnames) that can be traced thus?
-There's not too many I can think off of the top of my head, because there are so very few Drow/Dark Elven surnames that we have from the era. Hune and Sethomiir are the only ones I can think of.
Yes, buuuuuut... what defines a seperate group?
I had always assumed that ALL the Dark Elves were of one group originally, with a small bunch moving north. Those northern Illythiiri would not have been known as Miyeritari until after they formed the nation of Miyeritar with Green Elves. Miyeritari is NOT a racial designation, because both Dark and Green Elves were part of the group. The Miyertar Dark Elves were Illythiir who were part of the nation of Miyertar. Just as those three Green-Elf nations involved in the War of Three Leaves were not seperate racial groups - we shouldn't confuse racial groups with national ones.
If you are going to assign different attributes to the Miyeritari, then you must do so with the Sethomir, While it is true that they split MUCH later from the southern Dark Elves, it stands to reason that they would develop differently over time (as did the Miyeritari). This is especially true if they out-survived the southern group - we did find some evidence of Dark Elves living on the surface in the Unapproachable east up until very recently.
I'm not saying the Sethomir would have been different the day after they moved away... but a few thousand years later? Of course there'd be differences.
-As Ziriel is saying, those Drow were not a separate ethnic group. Those Drow were simply House Sethomiir of Ilythiir. When they left Ilythiir, and arrived in the Yuirwood/Thay area, they were still ethnic Ilythiiri. As I said in my initial response, it would only be after they left Ilythiir that they would have begun to develop culturally in a manner deviant to the Ilythiiri.
Because there is more history attacheed to the Miyeritar Elves you are giving them greater significance... but that's unfair. Canonically you may be correct, but a lack of information is NOT proof as to it's opposite (which applies to both you and I).
Find me a canon source that says that it wasn't a single Dark Elven House that travelled north in those early days and joined with the Green Elves in that region, eventually forming the nation (NOT racial group) of Miyeriar.
While it is true that the Miyertar had a few thousand years before the descent to differentiate themselves from the pack, they were all killed (at least, thats what we thought until recently). If any Sethomir are still around (and I suspect they would be, giving the references to Dark Elves in the Aglarondan Forests going back just a few centuries), it seems to me that it is far more plausible that the Sethomir eventually became an even more distinct group from the southern Illythiiri then the Miyeritari did (in those few millenia they were around).
In my Drow material for the Elven Netbook (what's that? :P ), I have it where a single, LARGE house left Faerie (the Feywild now) back before the arrival of the Eladrin (Gold and Silvers). There may have been minor subject-houses that followed them, but that would have been the dominant group, and just like in every other culture, it split into many sub-groups (houses) as time went on - just as Menzoberranzan itself was founded by a single house originally.
I even took it further (I think... its been awhile since I wrote that), and hint that the Dark Elves are merely just one of the branches of the 'Wild Elf' (Green) group, that set itself apart early-on (in Faerie). The fact that the GHotR mention the coming of Wild Elves before the 'High Elves' (Eladrin) lends some credence to that. Also breaking from that group would be the 'Wood Elves', the Gruagach (who seem a LOT like Dark Elves, but with lighter coloration), and my own theoretical 'Brown Elves' (the nomadic clans). Since the Dark Elves were apparently on Toril before the Eladrin, and the only prior mention of Elves in the GHotR is of the "coming of the Greens", one can easily surmise that the Illythiir were just a very dark-skinned group of Wild Elves, with more war-like tendencies (think Plains-Indains vs most of the tribes from the NE).
Ergo, Elven culture started out with just two groups (after the break from the fey) - the nobles (Eladrin, which would be the Gold, Silver, and Star... and possibly the Avariels), and the Wild Elves, or just 'Elves' in 4e (which would include those 'more primitive' groups I mentioned above, and perhaps also the Lythari and mythical Snow Elves).
Commoners and Nobles... just like everyone else. Thats how it always starts - the 'haves' and the 'have-nots'. This situation is actually exaccerbated in the Dragonlance material, with the groups of magic-wielding Elves looking down at all the 'barabric' tribes of Wood Elves.
This line of thought now has me thinking about my long-fogotten Elven pre-history. I'm thinking map again... maybe one to go with an article.
Mapping a section of the Feywild might be a nice change-of-pace for me.
-I'm not giving anybody any greater anything. I don't even know where Miyeritar comes it to anything. It's not relevant to anything I am saying, and I haven't even mentioned it in any of my posts.
-The Drow of House Sethomiir were from Ilythiir. So far, so good. They left Ilythiir, and went to the east. So far, so good. When they arrived in the east, and set up shop there, they were still House Sethomiir, originally from Ilythiir. Any development after House Sethomiir arrived in the east can be considered divergent cultural development. Anything before is not divergent, but Ilythiiri.
-As Ziriel is saying, those Drow were not a separate ethnic group. Those Drow were simply House Sethomiir of Ilythiir. When they left Ilythiir, and arrived in the Yuirwood/Thay area, they were still ethnic Ilythiiri. As I said in my initial response, it would only be after they left Ilythiir that they would have begun to develop culturally in a manner deviant to the Ilythiiri.
LK ... one more time and I'll get the scourge out and pay a Loviatar priestess to use it! There were no drow in Ilythiir, nor was the House Sethomiir of Ilythiiir a drow one. They were dark elves! And that means pre-Descent dark elves. The name became, as you know, synonymous with drow after the Descent, but we ... no you are speaking of pre-Descent people and there were no drow about.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
LK ... one more time and I'll get the scourge out and pay a Loviatar priestess to use it! There were no drow in Ilythiir, nor was the House Sethomiir of Ilythiiir a drow one. They were dark elves! And that means pre-Descent dark elves. The name became, as you know, synonymous with drow after the Descent, but we ... no you are speaking of pre-Descent people and there were no drow about.
-Well, at least everyone understands what I am trying to say! :P
-Maybe I'll get it by next post. Third time's a charm.
1) Modern FR Elves are (primarily) Sun, Moon, Wild, and Wood/Copper. There are also the Star and Aquatic elves but these rare/isolationist/off the beaten path
2) These various Elven "races" are actually cultural subsets of either Eladrin or Elf stock - Sun and Moon being Eladrins and Wild and Wood being Elves. Question 1: Where do the Drow fit in?
3) Prior to the end of the Crown Wars, the Wild and Copper subsects were collectively Green Elves.
4) The nation of Miyeritar, as of the Crown Wars era, consisted of Dark and Green Elves (or Wood Elves depending on the age of the sourcebook). The nation of Illithyiir consisted of Dark Elves. The nation of Aryvandaar consisted of Sun Elves. Miyeritar and Illithyiir were allies.
5) During the Crown Wars era, Miyeritar continually gets the short end of the stick (annexed, conquered, razed with High Magic) while Illithyiir becomes more and more ruthless (forging a pact for power with Wendonai, continuing the worship of Lolth, etc.).
6) Corellon alters the Dark Elves as part of the Descent.
[Info gathered from the various sourcebooks]
From the Lady Penitent series:
1) Miyeritar Dark Elf refugees/survivors fled to the other Dark Elves.
2) [Backed by other sourcebooks] All Dark Elves suffered from the Descent.
The major disconnect between the past given histories and the Lady Penitent series is the fate of the Miyeritar Dark Elves after Miyeritar fell. The major sourcebooks of old don't really cover it, but the Lady Penitent series seems to have a break down: some converted to Lolth worship over time and others did not (though whether they were Eilistraeens or just "apathetic" in the style of many male Drow characters seems to fall to individual families). So, while Wendonai introduced a physical blood taint into the Illythiir Dark Elves, Miyeritar Dark Elves could avoid that by not mingling with Illythiir -and here the series is less clear on how much could occur within a bloodline for it to be considered tainted- or at least minimizing the amount of mingling with hard-core Lolth worshipers.
The High Magic performed in Ascendancy of the Last seems to have effected Drow descended from the Miyeritar Dark Elves whose families have relatively steered clear of Lolth worship (a whole lot of lip service, etc.) and Drow Eilistraeens. Those associated with the Free City of Sshamath relocated to the City of Hope (i.e. Rhymanthiin, a city from the original Miyeritar, raised by Blackstaff and most of the "heavy-hitting" mages of Faerun). One might assume that the Eilistraeen network for smuggling Drow out of the Underdark was put to work getting newly minted Dark Elves to safety. "Renegade" Drow but not Miyertaran or Eilistraeens were not affected, presumably because of the blood taint (i.e. Drizzt Do'Urden, Tos'Un Del'Armgo, and Liriel Baenre: all of whom come from what are or were prominent Menzoberrenzan houses which if I remember correctly are all of Ilythiir descent).
As for Question 1: I believe that, overall, it would not matter if the original Dark Elves were Eladrin or Elven in nature. From a selective breeding stand-point modern Dark Elves would have what ever characteristics that Drow would have aimed for (Charisma and Dexterity according to 4ed) until they eventually introduced different material into the mix (highly likely as they probably have a very low population). A representative Drow to Dark Elf would have no real changes other than the conversion of Darkvision to Low-Light vision as skills and proficiencies are culturally/assumed background determined. A DR 1470+ Dark Elf (i.e. they've come to adventuring age for 1470+) could be Elven or Eladrin depending on what one believes became of those "first" Dark Elves (DM perogative?). If one wants my opinion on pre-Descent Dark Elves it is that they were of Eladrin persuasion as they are presented as foil to the Sun Elves whereas Elf Elves are primarily depicted as the not quite as crazy ones (maybe it was the +2 Wisdom?
)Drow as they stand for 4ed are pretty much the same as they were:
- Lolth worshiping crazies
- Those running the religious spectra from
Enough to stay alive (ex: Zaknafain)--Grudgingly acknowledges Lolth in her role as racial deity (ex: Gromph Baenre)--Acknowledges Lolth in her role as racial deity--Whoo! Chaos! (ex: Jarlaxle Baenre)
The idea of a truly good Drow (a la Drizzt) is a whole other topic and the Lady Penitent has removed the richest source for their conception as well as non-Lolth worshiping non-good Drow. The simplification of the Elven pantheon matched the overall design push for every pantheon: simplification and consolidation. The other option was the incorporation of Vhaerun into Mask (who was himself incorporated into Shar) and Eilistraee into Selune which really would have been retcons. This way there is now a proper set-up for Elf/Drow hatred and warfare without more than usual inter-Drow fighting (i.e. religious sects causing trouble for the Lolth clergy versus Houses engaged in shadow wars for power). The Drow, in a way, have returned to their roots as the evil underdogs (guided by Lolth) who are constantly looking for a way to get a hit in versus an insurmountably more powerful foe (the children of the Seldarine); get clever or admit defeat as it were. Is it any wonder then that Danifae ended up as the shell for Lolth?
In my opinion, for those of us who want a non-evil Drow PC, Tos'Un Del'Armgo provides the basis: a Drow who has gone native, not out of a sense of good and evil, but because of attachments formed which slowly outgrew those of the Underdark (for those of you who read comic books, particularly Marvel's Secret Invasion think
Show
the Hank Pym skrull who went renegade because of hot chocolate and pancakes
There were probably more dark elves spread over the map of Faerûn than just those of Miyeritar and Ilythiir (mark the spelling ;) ), yet we only know for certain that the two were actually "realms" of dark elves. While Ilythiir was dominated by dark elves - the ones called Ilythiiri - Miyeritar was indeed a realm "ruled" by green and dark elves. The former were - for most of D&D and AD&D just green elves, though took on the name of wild elves too. In 3E, a distinction was made between the more feral wild and the more civilized wood elves - both of which are more or less just two different branches of the green elves. 4E introduced a new and rather unnecessary twist to this tale, also turning the dark elves into "green" elves in direct contradiction to what went before, e.g. the Elven Timeline of Faerûn as given in Cormanthyr.
All dark elves of Faerûn were driven underground by the rituals done by all elven subraces after the horrors the dark elves released upon the world - of so goes the legend. As we know by now, the suns of Aryvandaar also slaughtered thousands - notably the green and dark elven population of Miyeritar as well as many thousands more when actually creating Evermeet. That was Elven High Magic going out of hand - twice. Now, as of Lady Penitent, we now know that the rituals wrought actually bound the dark elves to the Underdark radiation known as faerzress - the reason why they were able to cast Faerie (i.e. Faerzress and not Fairy) Fire. The spell cast during the last novel of that series essentially unbound some of the drow from this faerzress (you see, one of those rather silly things, when magic can determine between good and evil or pedigrees lines going back 12,000 years and all
). That re-created the new dark elves of 4E (if there actually are any) - i.e. yet unmentioned grey-skinned elves - and the normal drow, who are still bound to faerzress. At least flair-wise. Not that the designers so far determined between the terms of drow and dark elves in the rulebooks so far.1) Modern FR Elves are (primarily) Sun, Moon, Wild, and Wood/Copper. There are also the Star and Aquatic elves but these rare/isolationist/off the beaten path
-Elves that exist in the Forgotten Realms are as follows:
- Moon Elves
- Star Elves
- Wood Elves
- "Wild Elves"
- Aquatic Elves
- Avariel
- Lythari
- Dark Elves/Drow
- Snow Elves (Possibly. The existence of Megwandir, and her consort.)
- Desert Elves (Possibly. The existence of al-Qahera)
2) These various Elven "races" are actually cultural subsets of either Eladrin or Elf stock - Sun and Moon being Eladrins and Wild and Wood being Elves. Question 1: Where do the Drow fit in?
-Going by D&D mechanics, yes. Going by previously established lore, no. Going by the D&D mechanics, 'Eladrin' are Sun/Moon/Star Elves. 'Elves' are everything else, with the exception of Avariel, Lythari and Aquatic Elves. Drow have their own 'separate' race.
3) Prior to the end of the Crown Wars, the Wild and Copper subsects were collectively Green Elves.
-"Wild" Elves is a terrible misnomer, and the premise behind Wood Elves is flawed, and impossible. That said, yes, according the the official sources that are incorrect Wild Elves are the original Green Elves, and Wood Elves are a subrace that sprung from them breeding with other Elves.
4) The nation of Miyeritar, as of the Crown Wars era, consisted of Dark and Green Elves (or Wood Elves depending on the age of the sourcebook). The nation of Illithyiir consisted of Dark Elves. The nation of Aryvandaar consisted of Sun Elves. Miyeritar and Illithyiir were allies.
-Yes. It is likely that Aryvandaar consisted of Sun Elves and Moon Elves, primarily.
5) During the Crown Wars era, Miyeritar continually gets the short end of the stick (annexed, conquered, razed with High Magic) while Illithyiir becomes more and more ruthless (forging a pact for power with Wendonai, continuing the worship of Lolth, etc.).
6) Corellon alters the Dark Elves as part of the Descent.
[Info gathered from the various sourcebooks]
-Yes, and yes.
-More information about all of this can be found in Elves of Faerûn.
-"Wild" Elves is a terrible misnomer, and the premise behind Wood Elves is flawed, and impossible. That said, yes, according the the official sources that are incorrect Wild Elves are the original Green Elves, and Wood Elves are a subrace that sprung from them breeding with other Elves.
What?! Wood Elves sprung from elves interbreeding?! It's canon?!
No way. Elves don't interbreed. The child of green and anything else would be green or... anything else.
Back to the topic. All the dark elves were affected by the Descent, never mind if they were Ilythiiri or Miyeritari or anything else, and all became drow. Now the drow get somehow separated from the faerzress (which made them drow) and...? And it's impossible. No way of reverting all long time since the Descent of the Drow.
Though I like the fact we're rid of "good" drow and "redemption" concept.
-More information about all of this can be found in Elves of Faerûn.
Which has to be read with a bit of caution, as official and unofficial stuff us presented in there and the latter is not always marked as such.
I for one have no problem with "wild" or feral elf, for that is what they are.
What?! Wood Elves sprung from elves interbreeding?! It's canon?!
No way. Elves don't interbreed. The child of green and anything else would be green or... anything else.
-Yes. Wood Elves, in the FRCS and RoF have a genesis in being the offspring (many times over) of Sun Elves, Moon Elves, and "Wild" Elves. We already have, as you mention, canon regarding what happens when Elves of two different subraces produce offspring- it's either one, or the other. The FRCS, and later RoF ignored this. Doesn't change the fact that it's wrong, however.
Except that elves can apparently interbreed... feel free to blame that on interbreeding with humans, who passed on genetic adaptability to their helf children, who later bred with elves to create elves capable of interbreeding. Then we can get a whole Blade of the People angle going about humans leading to radical pollution of glorious pure elven blood, and to save the race, genocide must come quickly before they start having to worry about the effects of inbreeding borne from that insular gold-elf culture of theirs... :P ;)
-Elves have always (seemingly) had the ability to interbreed amongst themselves, or amongst certain other races. In the first case, which is the only one of importance here, two Elves mating with each other yields an Elf that is considered either of the subrace of the mother, or of the father. Traits get mixed and matched, but there can be no such thing as an Elven "mutt", which Wood Elves, as per the FRCS and RoF are.
Except that elves can apparently interbreed... feel free to blame that on interbreeding with humans, who passed on genetic adaptability to their helf children, who later bred with elves to create elves capable of interbreeding. Then we can get a whole Blade of the People angle going about humans leading to radical pollution of glorious pure elven blood, and to save the race, genocide must come quickly before they start having to worry about the effects of inbreeding borne from that insular gold-elf culture of theirs... :P ;)
-Sounds like Hitler was an Elf.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
-Yes. Wood Elves, in the FRCS and RoF have a genesis in being the offspring (many times over) of Sun Elves, Moon Elves, and "Wild" Elves. We already have, as you mention, canon regarding what happens when Elves of two different subraces produce offspring- it's either one, or the other. The FRCS, and later RoF ignored this. Doesn't change the fact that it's wrong, however.
Or retconned, and more importantly, canon, retroactive canon perhaps, but canon nonetheless, and the 'one, true way' of it for the purposes of discussions on the matter, no matter how you might personally feel about it. :P
-Elves have always (seemingly) had the ability to interbreed amongst themselves, or amongst certain other races. In the first case, which is the only one of importance here, two Elves mating with each other yields an Elf that is considered either of the subrace of the mother, or of the father. Traits get mixed and matched, but there can be no such thing as an Elven "mutt", which Wood Elves, as per the FRCS and RoF are.
Well, not any more... those days are past and done, and no longer the law of the land, at least not where Wood Elves are concerned. :P :P
Oh, and
to Delta for his keen observation.-Drow who had "pure" Miyeritari blood in their ancestry, or were of the Church of Eilistraee.
I had the impression that not all members of the church of Eilisatraee wre transformed (but given a choice). Which means that there is now at least one drow in 4e who was formerly an Eilistraee priestess...
All Eilistraeens got transformed and their goddess killed so there are no good drow now. One point good from all this bunch of... non-canon ;)
Who? I don't see anyone. Halisstra is dead and Qilue is dead too.
All Eilistraeens got transformed and their goddess killed so there are no good drow now. One point good from all this bunch of... non-canon ;)
A number of Eilistraeen's left the faith when they joined up with the Vhaeraunians. Anyway, as I said, I simply ignore some of the lore of the LP series, as you'd hardly find magic able to distinguish aeon old pedigree, good-heartedness, or being a follower of a a certain deity. BTW, you wonder what happened to those good-/neutral-hearted Eilistraeens / Masked Lady worshippers who happened to be in a Lolthite city when the change happens ...
Or retconned, and more importantly, canon, retroactive canon perhaps, but canon nonetheless, and the 'one, true way' of it for the purposes of discussions on the matter, no matter how you might personally feel about it. :P
-As I've said numerous times, that something is canon doesn't make it inherently correct, when viewed in terms of plausibility and relation to the rest of continuity. I was arguing with somebody about this sort of issue somewhat recently, I remember. Whoever it was couldn't/wouldn't understand that canon does not mean inherently correct. I believe I used the example of the Shade Enclave, where there are three canon versions of what happened to the city. All are (or were) canonically official, but all three could not have happened.
Well, not any more... those days are past and done, and no longer the law of the land, at least not where Wood Elves are concerned. :P :P
-Pshh. You're right, though, the rule applies/ed to all other Elven groups except the "Wood Elves".
A number of Eilistraeen's left the faith when they joined up with the Vhaeraunians. Anyway, as I said, I simply ignore some of the lore of the LP series, as you'd hardly find magic able to distinguish aeon old pedigree, good-heartedness, or being a follower of a a certain deity. BTW, you wonder what happened to those good-/neutral-hearted Eilistraeens / Masked Lady worshippers who happened to be in a Lolthite city when the change happens ...
-Wow sucks to be them.
Thats sucks, they take a good story IMO and screw up the lore with it. :embarrass 18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
Some of these novel-series makes you wonder why anyone would bother worshipping gods - the poor mortals ALWAYS gets screwed in the end.
-I'm not giving anybody any greater anything. I don't even know where Miyeritar comes it to anything. It's not relevant to anything I am saying, and I haven't even mentioned it in any of my posts.
-The Drow of House Sethomiir were from Ilythiir. So far, so good. They left Ilythiir, and went to the east. So far, so good. When they arrived in the east, and set up shop there, they were still House Sethomiir, originally from Ilythiir. Any development after House Sethomiir arrived in the east can be considered divergent cultural development. Anything before is not divergent, but Ilythiiri.
Gotcha.
I was just making a point that the Sethomir would have had more time (in the long run) to diverge from Illythiir culture, after the split form te Illythiir.
Which we appear to be in agreement on... Saints preserve us! :D
I was just making a point that the Sethomir would have had more time (in the long run) to diverge from Illythiir culture, after the split form te Illythiir.
Which we appear to be in agreement on... Saints preserve us! :D
-Right, yes. Case closed.
-As I've said numerous times, that something is canon doesn't make it inherently correct, when viewed in terms of plausibility and relation to the rest of continuity. I was arguing with somebody about this sort of issue somewhat recently, I remember. Whoever it was couldn't/wouldn't understand that canon does not mean inherently correct. I believe I used the example of the Shade Enclave, where there are three canon versions of what happened to the city. All are (or were) canonically official, but all three could not have happened.
Whichever one came last is the correct version, or possibly they're variant theories for something that is meant to be left ambiguous, or whoever was handling that was inept, take your pick. As to canon being correct, it always is, even when it makes no sense... either its a retcon of something, we're just not seeing the brilliant logic of it, or its an oversight and just waiting to get overruled, but its still correct until contradicted or rescinded.
-Pshh. You're right, though, the rule applies/ed to all other Elven groups except the "Wood Elves".
Well, you could look at it as a transformation on the part of the Seldarine, after a plea from those groups involved in becoming wood elves. Maybe it was an attempt to bring unity back to the elves after the Crown Wars broke so many things for the elves, in a literal and societal sense. Toss in a deity quietly behind things and it makes a lot more sense... maybe the elves themselves aren't even sure which one it was, or if it was indeed a group of them working in concert. There are several ways it could be explained if you're willing to fill in a few blanks and take a more liberal approach to interpreting what was said, without ever having to dip into the discomfort of elven genetics.
Whichever one came last is the correct version, or possibly they're variant theories for something that is meant to be left ambiguous, or whoever was handling that was inept, take your pick. As to canon being correct, it always is, even when it makes no sense... either its a retcon of something, we're just not seeing the brilliant logic of it, or its an oversight and just waiting to get overruled, but its still correct until contradicted or rescinded.
-Canon =/= perfectly correct. Canon is official, and that part I don't contest, ever. Canon isn't always correct, however. There are numerous cases of canon being inherently incorrect all over the place. When that stuff happens, we get the little continuity gaffes and problems that no one likes. If canon always was perfectly correct, that'd be great. But, it's not.
Well, you could look at it as a transformation on the part of the Seldarine, after a plea from those groups involved in becoming wood elves. Maybe it was an attempt to bring unity back to the elves after the Crown Wars broke so many things for the elves, in a literal and societal sense. Toss in a deity quietly behind things and it makes a lot more sense... maybe the elves themselves aren't even sure which one it was, or if it was indeed a group of them working in concert. There are several ways it could be explained if you're willing to fill in a few blanks and take a more liberal approach to interpreting what was said, without ever having to dip into the discomfort of elven genetics.
-All of that is nice, but no lore anywhere makes mention of any of it.
BTW, mind the spelling, please. For it is the realm of Ilythiir and its dark elven inhabitants are called the Ilythiiri. At least the name-giving "tribe" is.
Generally speaking, hoping for good spelling on the internet is hopeless. ;)
-Canon =/= perfectly correct. Canon is official, and that part I don't contest, ever. Canon isn't always correct, however. There are numerous cases of canon being inherently incorrect all over the place. When that stuff happens, we get the little continuity gaffes and problems that no one likes. If canon always was perfectly correct, that'd be great. But, it's not.
See, now you're just being silly in your expectations... and I kind of like those smaller continuity gaffes myself, they leave room for my ebil mind to maneuver and twist things to suit my :evillaugh purposes.
-All of that is nice, but no lore anywhere makes mention of any of it.
Doesn't refute the idea either as far as I'm aware... left plenty of room to read between the lines and draw your own conclusions as to how it was actually accomplished I thought.
See, now you're just being silly in your expectations... and I kind of like those smaller continuity gaffes myself, they leave room for my ebil mind to maneuver and twist things to suit my :evillaugh purposes.
-You don't need continuity gaffes and problems to twist and change things to suit whatever purpose you need them to fit.
Doesn't refute the idea either as far as I'm aware... left plenty of room to read between the lines and draw your own conclusions as to how it was actually accomplished I thought.
-No, nothing says that what you wrote is wrong. Nothing supports it either. It's just as likely as Corellon Larethian chewing a piece of bubble gum given to him by Valkur, that causes him to sneeze, which accidentally spreads some of Queen Titania's magical Faerie Dust across Abeir-Toril, in which dinosaurs from Chult absorb into their skin, which are later eaten by the Elves in question.
It would explain-away one of the MANY continuity problems of RoF.
Elves (and Eladrin... yeeesh) do breed true to either parent's heritage, but if there is ANY dilution of the pure Elf blood, then some half-breeding may occur.
This is probably one of the biggest fears of the Eldreth Veluthra - the 'melting pot' effect on the entire Elven race, becuase of 'human pollution'. Although they don't openly admit it, theirs is a genetically-bound caste society, and any thing that upsets the 'status quo' upsets the people on top.
I like it... A LOT.
Once again, my hat's off to Stigs.
Elves (and Eladrin... yeeesh) do breed true to either parent's heritage, but if there is ANY dilution of the pure Elf blood, then some half-breeding may occur.
-If there is Human blood in the first generation, there the child will become a Half-Elf. In the second generation, the blood is diluted already that the child will be considered either Human (Like Khelben, for instance. He is 1/4 Elven, 3/4 Human, and is considered a Human, in terms of D&D stats). Anything past that is minimal as well. This has nothing to do with inter-Elven breeding (Creating offspring with things inside the Elven race), however. Half-Elves are a result of extra-Elven breeding (Creating offspring with things outside the Elven race).
That it functions adequately mechanically is a bit different from working 100% in harmony with the mechanics. You can approximate, sure, but I've found the mechanics are only good to a certain point.
Sure... just keep telling yourself that spunky. :P
That it functions adequately mechanically is a bit different from working 100% in harmony with the mechanics. You can approximate, sure, but I've found the mechanics are only good to a certain point.
-If you say so. I'll take your word for it. I, personally, have never really encountered mechanical issues, pertaining to the setting, be it the Forgotten Realms, or my own setting. I don't also use plenty of rules that are in the rulebooks, so that may be part of it as well.
-Well, yes. Thank you for catching that.
-There's not too many I can think off of the top of my head, because there are so very few Drow/Dark Elven surnames that we have from the era. Hune and Sethomiir are the only ones I can think of.
House Aelryth of Miyeritar is another one. It was mentioned on p. 14 of the Grand History of the Realms. And then the names of the houses in the LP Series, wich helped Qsomewhat to undo the curse. The "ghosts" in this Selu'Kiira seemed to have the same house name, like the drow who handled the specific mindstone. I believe the minds who helped Qsomewhat were also from house Melarn, so this house name should have existed in ancient Miyeritar.
Wasn't there somewhere in a novel or sourcebook or article a statement that even house Baenre existed before the Descent?
Wasn't there somewhere in a novel or sourcebook or article a statement that even house Baenre existed before the Descent?
-Not anything I remember, though it is possible. The earliest mentions that House Baenre gets is in -3,864 DR, when House Nesadra was exiled from Menzoberranzan, and House Baenre became the preeminent and dominant House of the city.
House Aelryth of Miyeritar is another one. It was mentioned on p. 14 of the Grand History of the Realms. And then the names of the houses in the LP Series, wich helped Qsomewhat to undo the curse. The "ghosts" in this Selu'Kiira seemed to have the same house name, like the drow who handled the specific mindstone. I believe the minds who helped Qsomewhat were also from house Melarn, so this house name should have existed in ancient Miyeritar.
Wasn't there somewhere in a novel or sourcebook or article a statement that even house Baenre existed before the Descent?
Great, thx.
I agree about Melarns and Q'arlynd. I read somewhere that his kiira was passed on for generations. So if it's the lore gem, it had to be before the Descent.-Canon =/= perfectly correct. Canon is official, and that part I don't contest, ever. Canon isn't always correct, however. There are numerous cases of canon being inherently incorrect all over the place. When that stuff happens, we get the little continuity gaffes and problems that no one likes. If canon always was perfectly correct, that'd be great. But, it's not.
However, we need to realize that we're also talking about two different "canons" here. The Game Setting Canon, and the Novel Setting Canon.
The novel setting canon doesn't change, at least not without WotC and the writers declaring it so.
The canon for the Game Setting? All discussion of "canon" goes out the window once the DM opens the FR boxed set or Campaign Setting book. Then, RULE 0 kicks into effect, and no matter what the novel-hounds scream over it, the DM is the one who decides what is and is not "canon", because at that point, it becomes his or her Forgotten Realms, not WotC's.
Remember, people, once you set down the books and pick up that character sheet and funny-sided dice, all this arguing we've been doing in this thread becomes utterly and completely moot.
However, we need to realize that we're also talking about two different "canons" here. The Game Setting Canon, and the Novel Setting Canon.
The novel setting canon doesn't change, at least not without WotC and the writers declaring it so.
-While we can make distinctions, in the setting- and officially- there is no difference. All novels and sourcebooks share the same canon.
The canon for the Game Setting? All discussion of "canon" goes out the window once the DM opens the FR boxed set or Campaign Setting book. Then, RULE 0 kicks into effect, and no matter what the novel-hounds scream over it, the DM is the one who decides what is and is not "canon", because at that point, it becomes his or her Forgotten Realms, not WotC's.
-No, not really. Everything in the sourcebooks (and the novels) are canon. A DM can change whatever it is he/she wants, and that's fine, but that results in his/her campaign being less canon, and more homebrew- which isn't a bad thing or anything, mind you. As you said, it becomes that person's Forgotten Realms, which aren't canon, and as such, aren't very important in discussions. For example, if someone was asking a question about what Myth Drannor is like since it's subsequent restoration by the Elves, and someone in their response talks about how they had a meteor hit and destroy Myth Drannor in 1,372 DR, that's not very helpful or relevant, as that is not what the poster was asking for information for.
-That's almost akin to saying that, since every baseball stadium has it's own ground rules, the official MLB rules of baseball aren't of too much relevance.
This way there is now a proper set-up for Elf/Drow hatred and warfare without more than usual inter-Drow fighting (i.e. religious sects causing trouble for the Lolth clergy versus Houses engaged in shadow wars for power). The Drow, in a way, have returned to their roots as the evil underdogs (guided by Lolth) who are constantly looking for a way to get a hit in versus an insurmountably more powerful foe (the children of the Seldarine); get clever or admit defeat as it were. Is it any wonder then that Danifae ended up as the shell for Lolth?
I would agree that this does increase the likeliness for more direct conflict between drow and elves. However, if I may point out some things that did not seem to change...
1. Lolth is still a deity of vileness and chaos. When her worshipers are not fighting other drow sects, they are still fighting each other. I read through some new material in the Demon Queen Enclave adventure, and it seems she and the drow have not changed too much from their original concept. Drow are still backstabbing each other quite a bit. Lolth, for all we know, is probably still sitting back and getting pleasure from it all.
As a side note to those who are concerned with whether or not drow are always supposed to follow Lolth from now on....one of the drow villains in the book follows Orcus, if I am not mistaken. So, technically, drow are still allowed to stray from Lolth, despite the statement in the Monster Manual describing them as a race that tries to subjugate everything that does not follow Lolth.
2. Even when there are no drow 'heretics' to fight, the drow still have plenty of monsters to fight in the Underdark.
3. Many drow long for the day to finally defeat their surface cousins, but full-fledged attacks, with everything else in consideration, will probably not happen for a long time. At least, they will not be happening regularly. The whole "death to elves" thing is their general war cry, and probably does reflect the mood of the drow at the time. Historically speaking, the drow doubtlessly hate the elves more than any other race, but they in practice treat anything they are at war with the same way. They were killing most deep gnomes at the same rate they were killing elves at some point; arguably even at a higher rate because they were at direct war with them. They will always talk about exterminating their foes.
Lolth may prioritize drow a bit more than her other worshipers (as they are the bulk of her worshipers), but in the end, I think she will enjoy seeing everything fall apart. She secretly wants -everything.-
Then again, I have yet to get my Forgotten Realms books in the mail. Maybe they made her more drow-centric compared to older editions.
In my opinion, for those of us who want a non-evil Drow PC, Tos'Un Del'Armgo provides the basis: a Drow who has gone native, not out of a sense of good and evil, but because of attachments formed which slowly outgrew those of the Underdark ...
After reading through some of the 4.0 material again and again, I would have to say I agree with you. I used to be the most cynical about the whole change with drow, but I think every game-maker knows that once they make a playable race, they know they have to make room for exceptions. Drow became a playable race since the Forgotten Realms 4.0 set, if I am not mistaken. They may still be monsters as a general rule, but for those who are concerned with whether or not they can play a redeemable drow again...
...Other drow struggle to rid themselves of Lolth's touch and instead seek Corellon's aid, eventually becoming the fey god's crusader within the dark realms of their race, gaining blessings of healing and light from the patron of the eladrin and elves....
This is roughly from... Robert J. Schwalb. Children of Darkness, Dragon #367, p. 63-73. Wizards of the Coast. I quoted this portion from the Forgotten Realms Wikipedia entry on drow, which summarizes this article.
I personally predicted that Corellon never abandoned the Drow. Something about that very end of the Lady Penitent Trilogy told me he was not going to let Lolth win them completely...
Thinking about this, I do not mind their generalized sentences about drow in the core material. At first it bothered me (as some of you may know from my first few posts), but now I am realizing that there is a lot to read into on those basic sentences.
In my personal opinion, while I am never a fan of making things completely good and evil, I did want them to make a point that good drow are very, very rare...and good drow are not pushovers. They survived all of those years for a reason. Ed Greenwood actually made a statement about it in 2nd edition. Drow of the Underdark 2nd edition explicitly stated that only 20% of drow are considered "good" and in terms of mechanics, the vast majority of that 20% are meant to be more on the neutral spectrum.
Does this mean I do not think anyone should play a good drow, or even a non-Lolthite drow for that matter? Not at all. I am just stating from a lore perspective that it is still meant to be rare, even in older editions.
I am sad at the fact Eilistraee and Vhaeraun died, but at the same time, I think these changes may force people to think even more on their character concepts when they make an exceptional drow. Furthermore, it might even have them start as a drow Lolthite who comes up on the surface for one reason or another, but then finds a better life and maybe even matures past the traditional prejudice encouraged by the race's society. And then if they feel like they want to follow To'sun Armgo's example, they can find a cute elven woman.
Kidding about the skirt-chasing bit!
Best regards,
AryaNightingale
EDIT: Please let me know if I sound totally weird in this post somehow so I can clarify things later or make the tone smoother. I been reading all night and am now dead tired.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080929
In older editions, I think he did take 'exceptional drow'. I do not think any FR lore said that Corellon never took drow, just the bulk of his worshipers would be non-drow elves. It is like how 95% of Lolth's worshipers are drow or drow-blooded, but she still secretly backs the cult of Moander, which is composed of evil humans and elves. So, in that aspect, I do not think the FR lore would be overthrown over that. Again, these would be exceptions. Exceptional exceptions are as rare as exalted good or vile evil.
I will try to be fair, though. While Corellon himself may not be the one with the issues, the biggest problem with Corellon devoted drow is that they will rarely, if ever, find elven clergy who would acknowledge them...even as laymen. Like I stated in another post, the racial apathy is likely on the rise. Elves aware of the War of the Spider Queen events may likely convince themselves that only those "dark skinned elves" were considered redeemable, and the drow are equivalent to demons and fiends. This is where I make the distinction between the trends of the worshipers and the views of the deity themselves, which are not always exactly alike - just similar.
Regardless, redeemable drow or not, I still see cults of Sheverashi fanatics attacking them.
A lot of people agree that Lady Penitent Trilogy shook a lot of established elven lore. I find it unfortunate and I am still sad to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (especially Vhaeraun) die over it. However, if we are going by the book events, Corellon did take Eilistraee's place on the game of sava...I think it meant something and he isn't completely giving up yet. This is not something I always do, but seeing that canon has killed off Eilistraee, I do not see them ignoring that one bit in the end.
Then again, regardless of our opinions on the matter, Corellon and Lolth will be fighting over the fate of their children until the end of times. That is one thing many people will probably agree on. In the end, drow are 'fallen' elves (or fey if you want to go by newer terminology). I am just an elven and drow lore junkie who tries to keep updated on them, even when I feel sad about changes made to them. Ultimately, what people do with a game is up to them. Some friends of mine, for instance, would not touch the 4.0 lore with a 50 foot pole.
Best regards,
AryaNightingale
The whole storyline never was about "Drow Redemption". Its purpose was clearly aimed to get rid off Elistraee with handing out a viable justification for the event. Now if you have this grandious story and you as the author decide for a particular character to "leave the stage" you have a certain set of options to accomplish that. Well after you decided for this figure to "die" you must find a way that fits the figure and the whole context in which it existed. Giving her the opportunity to at least partically fullfill the premise she embodied "redemption for the Drow" let her vanish in a blaze of glory. The statement that "Drow found redemption" wasnt meant to have an effect on the Drow as a whole. It was only to grant her death some meaning.
I've said as much on different thread in an unkindly manner, but it's all true. The whole LP story was entirely Deus Ex Machina from start to finish on so many levels (Wendonai, various pieces of lore, etc) that the story has absolutely zero credibility.
On a side note, according to what they have about this "drow redemption" (where the Drow black skin turns brown making them dark elves, and losing their white hair, etc) apparently doesn't affect Drizzt in any way...in Salvatores latest book he has black skin and white hair still well after the "redemption".
Furthermore, in said book Drizzt is attacking (and killing some) Humans, Elves and Dwarves. All the while protecting Orcs.
I guess Drizzt is now Evil.
When I was regularly reading the Drizzt books, I had this feeling that while I did not doubt him hating drow and their vile acts with a passion, it is still -the- society he knows. So, he may not have turned evil, but I still would not doubt some part of 'the Underdark,' as some people would call it remains in his heart. He may react to this by being more able to do the drastic for a better cause (Chaotic?) or simply by showing rebellion to the drow matriarchs on the surface because he can get away with it now.
Even if he does end up being less good than normal, I highly doubt that he would return to the Underdark and kiss Lolth's feet. His environment seems like it would play a far stronger role in this case. Nonetheless, Drizzt is still meant to be a very rare case, even by past lore and present lore.
Something to note on drow...
Another thing people might want to consider for 4.0 drow is their numbers. The Spellplague hit the Underdark as badly as the surface, if not more because there are reserves of magical metal down there that was dormant. Someone correct me if I am wrong on this, but with that in mind, I do not think people should be seeing drow more regularly on the surface.
Then again, it is not like they needed the Spellplague to keep their numbers down. In the end, they have means of keeping their population down when they cannot economically support their city-state. :::Cough.:::
Best Regards,
AryaNightingale
I've said as much on different thread in an unkindly manner, but it's all true. The whole LP story was entirely Deus Ex Machina from start to finish on so many levels (Wendonai, various pieces of lore, etc) that the story has absolutely zero credibility.
On a side note, according to what they have about this "drow redemption" (where the Drow black skin turns brown making them dark elves, and losing their white hair, etc) apparently doesn't affect Drizzt in any way...in Salvatores latest book he has black skin and white hair still well after the "redemption".
Furthermore, in said book Drizzt is attacking (and killing some) Humans, Elves and Dwarves. All the while protecting Orcs.
I guess Drizzt is now Evil.
This was discussed in another thread, recently. The redemption affected only those of pure blood (those not bearing Wendonai's taint) and worshippers of Eilistraee. Drizzt, like most drow, failed to fulfill either requirement.
Well, I've read the same article on FR Wiki and didn't see the citation... If it's true, eh... overthrown all the lore about FR. I don't imagine Corellon having drow worshippers, it was clearly said that his faith were elves except drow.
-Corellon Larethian, in Demihuman Deities, has Drow worshipers. His clergy includes "a handful of Dark Elves", which meant Drow (at the time).
In spite of that, I could have sworn Rich Baker said something about drow being more "accepted" on the surface than they used to be.
I could see that. Certain areas, such as Westgate, probably do accept drow more often than other places.
This was discussed in another thread, recently. The redemption affected only those of pure blood (those not bearing Wendonai's taint) and worshippers of Eilistraee. Drizzt, like most drow, failed to fulfill either requirement.
I will not argue that at all, and I agree with this premise, based on what has been established. However, this does not mean Drizzt is actually evil. Eilistraee's ability to redeem is hers, and affected her worship and those without Wedonai's taint. However, I am actually going to take another perspective on this, while still honoring what has happened. Eilistraee's actions (or sacrifice, whatever one wishes to suggest) simply removed the taint that made drow disposed toward evil.
So, I will not argue that all other drow still bare some taint. Do tieflings not suffer from the same thing, though? Yet, are there still a handful of tieflings who manage to become non-evil? What makes this different for a drow now? As a side note, again, that article I posted made explicit that drow, while they may still struggle with the taint, can still fight it in 4.0; just they will still struggle. Then they can try to actually 'officially redeem,' so to speak, through the one option near the end of it (something still very rare, no doubt).
In the end, individual differences will always exist in stories. So, arguing whether Drizzt is evil or not will be a moot point until R.A. Salvatore releases the Ghost King.
Personally, for my own character concepts, I like the idea of a drow who does not turn good through time, but simply changes his goals and motivations. In other words, I like the idea of an antihero drow who starts as a villain serving some drow house, but ends up being able to care for individuals of other races after being around them long enough. The drow would still be prejudice, but this drow would be subjected to the Michael Jordan effect (e.g., phenomenon when some Caucasians do not like African Americans but may like Michael Jordan). So then he betrays his original house not because he values life and protects it, but because he grew to care for those who associated with him. This may seem like a somewhat 'redeemable' quality, but over all is still selfish and far from altruistic.
That, and said drow was taught to hate and fear Lolth all of his life, but with no priestesses enforcing her laws, he can get away with killing spiders now.
At any rate, there are many ways to go about approaching drow on the surface. If some people want to play that Lolth can randomly possess them whenever they try to do something against her will, go for it. Others can simply play out that the drow has a disposition for more chaotic evil acts than not, and have to still fight that disposition to their very last days.
For my own campaigns and stories, I would make drow start as non-good and then let the roleplay take them where it would naturally take them. At this point, I think the only realistically good drow anymore are those who are high leveled and had the experience that would let them turn that way. Anything in the low level category would probably still be part of drow society one way or another, or only recently left it. This is me, though. It is my way of acknowledging that the drow are still pretty much tainted, but when environmental factors are strong enough, they can allow for the drow to work with that. State vs. trait, so to speak.
Of course, many probably would find this too liberal. And I probably went too overboard on this post...again.
Best Regards,
AryaNightingale
-Corellon Larethian, in Demihuman Deities, has Drow worshipers. His clergy includes "a handful of Dark Elves", which meant Drow (at the time).
Thank you for the citation, Lord Karsus. Again, I will be fair in my stance (or try to be), even if we acknowledge past lore, it is only a handful of drow this article spotlights. So, this is consistent with the past and present circumstances for the drow. Drow turning away from evil should not be as rare as true fiends doing so, but I still think it should be very, very rare...as much as I am ruthlessly playing the opposition here.
Best Regards,
AryaNightingale
In the end, individual differences will always exist in stories. So, arguing whether Drizzt is evil or not will be a moot point until R.A. Salvatore releases the Ghost King.
-It's not a question as to if Drizzt is evil or not. We know that he isn't. His canon alignment is Chaotic Good. He bears the "taint" of Wendonai, however. This, in and of itself, is neither good nor bad. It simply is a plothook that is, in my opinion, poorly thought out and poorly implemented.
Thank you for the citation, Lord Karsus. Again, I will be fair in my stance (or try to be), even if we acknowledge past lore, it is only a handful of drow this article spotlights.
-Drow who are "redeemed" (in the sense that they are not Chaotic Evil, or obeying the matriarchy of Lolth, and not the sense introduced in the Lady Penitent trilogy) are/were indeed in a very small minority.
Mind, the moon elf normally arrested or killed drow on sight, but the drow proved himself well enough. It just went to show that the elves are not really that united of a people. At some point, another gold elf and a wood elf were bickering about their differences.
Smacks too much of predestination and original sin for me to ever accept it as something other than a typical falsehood put forward by Gold Elves to hide their crimes during the Crown Wars.
Maybe the dehumanization (or de-elvenization) of drow makes it so no one feels bad about killing their children in mindless dungeon raids in the Underdark.
Regards,
AryaNightingale
how much would it have hurt wizards to make the dark masked lady an exhark of sehanine or corellon? :embarrass
Do not (as in: NOT) try to make sense of the reasoning behind the deiicide amongst the drow deities at the eve of 3,5E.
Regardless, I personally hated how they removed the only other option for evil drow male. Vhaeraun's concept for elven supremacy and his clergy ruling the surface was very appealing and acted as a counter-Lolth mindset. From what I have seen, Lolth has not done anything to include worshipers from this school of thought...which is funny, considering she secretly stole Zinzerena's clergy, who were composed of rebels of the system and then stole Moander's evil surface elves.
If they are going to still make her a deity who feeds on chaos and political intrigue in drow society, I am sure they would not make her more complicated by doing that. Oh well. C'est le vie.
I am biased, I suppose. Lolth never really impressed me as a deity short of being the equivalent of Shar for the elves. When I talk about her positively, it is only to discuss that she is not as drow-centric as her worshipers make her out to be and that she is less concerned with defeating surface elves as she is with hurting Corellon's power...to finish what she wanted to do from the start: rule everything. Drow are a means for this goal. In the end, drow were just impressionable elves/fey who fell into her web, only given care because they make the bulk of her worshipers. Unless that changes in the newer books (from what I seen after reading more 4.0 books, it has not changed), that is what she is.
Regards,
AryaNightingale
Smacks too much of predestination and original sin for me to ever accept it as something other than a typical falsehood put forward by Gold Elves to hide their crimes during the Crown Wars.
-Agreed, although, this time, it's some theoretical falsehoods put out by Wendonai. If it hadn't been for the last book, which more or less "confirms" the bloodline taint thing, I'd chalk it up to the Balor lying, myself.
Again, I am probably too liberal.
Regards,
AryaNightingale
In either case, it still makes my point. If tieflings can overcome their demonic taint, then drow should not have anymore difficulties than they do.
This discussion now reminds me of a comment this one tiefling character actually said (my fault!). When he entered the city with his albino skin and wings, it seemed no one had an opinion. Then when a drow entered the city, it seemed -everyone- had an opinion. I think there might be a double-standard in how the two races are treated sometimes, in mechanics and in how DMs run their NPCs and establishes house rules.
Regards,
AryaNightingale
Smacks too much of predestination and original sin for me to ever accept it as something other than a typical falsehood put forward by Gold Elves to hide their crimes during the Crown Wars.
I agree with this.
Friendly regards,
AryaNightingale
-Agreed, although, this time, it's some theoretical falsehoods put out by Wendonai. If it hadn't been for the last book, which more or less "confirms" the bloodline taint thing, I'd chalk it up to the Balor lying, myself.
He may STILL be lying, and some undisclosed factor may have been responsible for what he was taking credit for.
After all, Balors are like that.
I still regularly reference this simple adventure when it comes to drow lore. Drow of the Underdark 3.5 I think covered some of this stuff, but it still never matches up to Gary Gygax's original work.
Now I am beginning to sound older than I am. :embarrass It is still an idea for a 4.0 adventure, though. The Demon Queen Enclave does not seem to introduce near as many aspects of a drow city that Vault of the Drow 1st edition did.
Now I am beginning to sound older than I am. :embarrass
No need to be embarrassed, after all, I just passed the 40 mark (although I still look like my early 30's, must be the long hair)! As long as you don't slip into Grognard-syndrome, nothing wrong with being a D&D playing greybeard. After all, look at Ed Greenwood!
Still, though. There was a lot of substance for so few pages in a book. It lead to Queen of the Demonweb Pits, one of the first extraplanar modules released.
Best regards,
AryaNightingale
He may STILL be lying, and some undisclosed factor may have been responsible for what he was taking credit for.
After all, Balors are like that.
-I forget the technical term for this phenomenon, but, given various possibilities, the one that is most usually correct is the most straightforward in the bunch of possibilities. As in, for example, when there is a dead body with a bullet hole in it, the person died most likely from being shot, not from being strangled.
-But, yeah, he could be lying, and some undisclosed factor may have been responsible for what transformed various Drow. But...:P
Do not (as in: NOT) try to make sense of the reasoning behind the deiicide amongst the drow deities at the eve of 3,5E.
akk!
i should have listened and now my brain hurts! 
why did they keep gaundegar the drow god of slimes/oozess and jellies but went all out to kill off killranshea, vaerhum, selvatrim?! my brain popped! 
i should have left better enough alone.
she was right...
by the dark lady ...
she was right.!
it would be like keeping the dwarven god of pink moles!
-I forget the technical term for this phenomenon, but, given various possibilities, the one that is most usually correct is the most straightforward in the bunch of possibilities. As in, for example, when there is a dead body with a bullet hole in it, the person died most likely from being shot, not from being strangled.
-But, yeah, he could be lying, and some undisclosed factor may have been responsible for what transformed various Drow. But...:P
You do realize we're talking about a fantasy world, and one ruled over by WotC at that, right? You can just toss that principle right out the window given some of the convoluted plots they've been hitting us with lately...
I do not know why I never asked myself this, but in Elaines Evermeet Novel the Ilythiiri of Atorrnash worshipped the Slimo and Vhaeraun c. -25100 DR and Lolth took Ka'Narlist as her consort around -24500 DR, so did they let these older lore slip through when they made Lost Empires? In Brians Grand History these dates are mentioned but the entry of Lost Empires is missing.
How is this meant? When I am thinking this for me, I believe that some Ilythiiri began to worship Vhearaun, Ghaunadaur und later the ones around Ka'Narlist also to take Lolth into their thoughts, but it took until -18000 DR until most Ilythiir houses took them. Or was the entry of Lost Empires just retconned away when Brian's Grand History became available?
-I forget the technical term for this phenomenon, but, given various possibilities, the one that is most usually correct is the most straightforward in the bunch of possibilities.
The Principle of Parsimony, I believe.
You do realize we're talking about a fantasy world, and one ruled over by WotC at that, right? You can just toss that principle right out the window given some of the convoluted plots they've been hitting us with lately...
-Should still be in effect.
A little question, because I reread some things about history of the dark elves. In Lost Empires of Faerûn was an entry that stated Ilthiiri discovered Ghaundaur in -18000 DR and in the following centuries Lolth and the rest of the bad bunch.
I do not know why I never asked myself this, but in Elaines Evermeet Novel the Ilythiiri of Atorrnash worshipped the Slimo and Vhaeraun c. -25100 DR and Lolth took Ka'Narlist as her consort around -24500 DR, so did they let these older lore slip through when they made Lost Empires? In Brians Grand History these dates are mentioned but the entry of Lost Empires is missing.
How is this meant? When I am thinking this for me, I believe that some Ilythiiri began to worship Vhearaun, Ghaunadaur und later the ones around Ka'Narlist also to take Lolth into their thoughts, but it took until -18000 DR until most Ilythiir houses took them. Or was the entry of Lost Empires just retconned away when Brian's Grand History became available?
-The Sundering destroyed Atorrnash, and thus, Ghaunadaur and his worshipers were either killed or displaced. Thousands of years later, after the Ilythiiri Empire had been formally founded (Again, if you want to consider Atorrnash "Proto-Ilythiir"), Ilythiiri Drow discovered the worship of Ghaunadaur. It's a case of something being lost, then found again.
The Principle of Parsimony, I believe.
-Occam's Razor, that was it, yes. "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."
Example. In a multiplayer server, I actually wanted to make my friend an elven slave, a friend who was playing a Lolthite. The DM told me that drow never took elven slaves and it was -always- a kill or sacrifice on sight. I looked in my books, and I saw a several cases of those; in addition, Drow of the Underdark 3.5 made it clear that while most elves were killed or sacrificed on sight, some were indeed taken as slaves for some use or some torture exhibit. However, because the DM was the DM, I pretty much just made point that his ruling was fine, but it was still house rules and nothing really, technically, and explicitly stated in the books. He really did not like me afterward. Oh well. :-)
Why would I want to do that for a PC concept, you wonder? Well, I did not have much time to dedicate to the place and I thought it would have been fun to play a slave instead of a leader type. Considering how spiteful drow would be to an elf, I thought that would have been interesting roleplay. I tend to roleplay various types of concepts just for the fact that I want to learn how to relate to those concepts through seeing things from their viewpoint.
Either way, said DM was actually trying to force many other house rules that were claimed to be strictly book material. He did not allow Eilistraeans and he was even stingy about allowing Vhaeraunite drow. In addition, he and the other staff made all Aasimar good only and all Tieflings evil only. To be frank, I did not think he and the other staff was big on being by-the-books as much as he was about polarizing a server to where it was nothing more than a combat game. I guess he was trying to be by-the-books too hard.
As a note, while they did try indeed to make all drow evil, they never raised a finger to make all elves good. Do I see a double standard here?
And now you ask, why did I spend paragraphs on this trivial little thing? It is to make the point that while the lore, books, etc. should be honored and considered, there are many possibilities out there. Sometimes, you might just have to make house rules to do justice to the game you want to make. Other times, you simply just have to set standards on background information of characters, stories, and so forth to do justice to the game you want to make. What matters is you acknowledge what you are doing, and can be open about it with others.
Regards,
AryaNightingale
On the whole though, I do agree with your point there. Canon is good for a starting point, but it only covers so much, and leaves tons and tons of room for interpretation and creativity. And, of course, sometimes it just has to be tossed out the window, or possibly mutilated beyond recognition, to make things work. Depends on the game and the group, and the sort of story you're trying to tell.
after the Ilythiiri Empire had been formally founded (Again, if you want to consider Atorrnash "Proto-Ilythiir"), Ilythiiri Drow discovered the worship of Ghaunadaur. It's a case of something being lost, then found again.
That sounds nice, much better than my own interpretation. Well, maybe I explain it a little around both. And now you ask, why did I spend paragraphs on this trivial little thing? It is to make the point that while the lore, books, etc. should be honored and considered, there are many possibilities out there. Sometimes, you might just have to make house rules to do justice to the game you want to make. Other times, you simply just have to set standards on background information of characters, stories, and so forth to do justice to the game you want to make. What matters is you acknowledge what you are doing, and can be open about it with others.
Was this meant as an answer to my question(s)? Well, sorry but that is not usefull in my case, because I did not search the lore for the rpg thing. I am making some articles in the german faerûn-wiki, so I must stick to the official version ;) What others make of the details, well that is their own thing. For the article it is more important what is still official canon lore and what not (this said, if the statement of this or that sourcebook/novel is still canon or retconned away).
Regards,
AryaNightingale
-The Sundering destroyed Atorrnash, and thus, Ghaunadaur and his worshipers were either killed or displaced. Thousands of years later, after the Ilythiiri Empire had been formally founded (Again, if you want to consider Atorrnash "Proto-Ilythiir"), Ilythiiri Drow discovered the worship of Ghaunadaur. It's a case of something being lost, then found again.[/i]
What are Ilythiiri drow?
What are Ilythiiri drow?
-You and your semantics. :P
-Though, technically, Ilythiiri Drow would have existed. Ilythiiri Drow would have been Drow who were of Ilythiiri heritage who fled into the Underdark. The society would have quickly fell apart, however, especially after the Drow from other Dark Elven settlements integrated with each other as they began wandering the Underdark. It'd be like how the founding fathers of the United States were English, and only in the next generation were the first Americans born. I was trying to think of a German analogue for you, but couldn't. You're smart, though. I'm sure you understand what I mean.
-You and your semantics. :P
-Though, technically, Ilythiiri Drow would have existed. Ilythiiri Drow would have been Drow who were of Ilythiiri heritage who fled into the Underdark. The society would have quickly fell apart, however, especially after the Drow from other Dark Elven settlements integrated with each other as they began wandering the Underdark. It'd be like how the founding fathers of the United States were English, and only in the next generation were the first Americans born. I was trying to think of a German analogue for you, but couldn't. You're smart, though. I'm sure you understand what I mean.
Dude, as stated elsewhere, I am reading Evermeet for the first time. I can't believe the amount of contradiction I am getting between it and the Lady Penitent series.
What do I do?!?! I don't know who to believe anymore!
Dude, as stated elsewhere, I am reading Evermeet for the first time. I can't believe the amount of contradiction I am getting between it and the Lady Penitent series.
-What, specifically? Start a new thread on the subject.
What do I do?!?! I don't know who to believe anymore!
-We're here for you.
-You and your semantics. :P
-Though, technically, Ilythiiri Drow would have existed. Ilythiiri Drow would have been Drow who were of Ilythiiri heritage who fled into the Underdark. The society would have quickly fell apart, however, especially after the Drow from other Dark Elven settlements integrated with each other as they began wandering the Underdark. It'd be like how the founding fathers of the United States were English, and only in the next generation were the first Americans born. I was trying to think of a German analogue for you, but couldn't. You're smart, though. I'm sure you understand what I mean.
Semantics? You speak of "my" people and term/link them wrongly! Much like saying "those Indo-Europeans are quite a difficult people to deal with" ... when actually speaking about Spanish or the Irish of today. When either could well have been come from Arabia during the Middle Ages, rather than the Eurasian plains.
Anyway, I was actually laying my finger on the fact that you amongst others write that Elven Netbook and should know the correct terminology. Wiggling your way out of this by whipping up some hypothetical stuff does not hold either, as - as we know by know - drow only became drow when they were "attached" to faerzress during the Descent ritual. Hence, any Underdark-living Ilythiiri would just be that, an Underdark living Ilythiiri (i.e. pre-Descent dark elf).
(And yes, a Happy New Year to you too!
)Hence, any Underdark-living Ilythiiri would just be that, an Underdark living Ilythiiri (i.e. pre-Descent dark elf).
-Unless the Descent of the Drow just happened.
Illythiir = one clan of Dark Elves that we know of. The Miyeritari may have been a clan that broke-off from that one early on, which seems likely. The Sethomir were definately a group of Illythiir that broke-off from the southern Dark Elves.
I have postulated that the Illythiir were THE Dark Elves that came to Toril, making the two terms synonymous in regards to Toril early on. Other clans, with different names, or even clans of mixed sub-races, may have migrated to other worlds.
This means that the GH Drow need not have been Illythiiri (despite the homebrew lore I wrote to the contrary elsewhere). The Drow living on Kule - also within Greyspace - are NOT Illythiiri, as far as I'm concerned. They didn't even know why they were 'cursed' until untold centuries later.
Illythiir is a clan name, and it seems likely to have been a major one that left Faerie early-on, and probably any other groups of dark Elves found on Toril (the ones in Maztica and Zakhara) were all part of this 'familial group' at first.
'Most likely' isn't canon, it's just conjecture, but conjecture based on ALL available facts. (making it just a damn good theory, IMHO).
I'm not really understanding the point of contention here. Is someone saying there were drow before -10,000 DR?
As far as I'm aware, there are no references to them (although there may have been 'Dhaerow' - traitors).
If there are references, it could just be an editting glitch - Lord knows I've come across my fair share of them in FR material.
Just the other day, I came across a rerference to an ancient Netherease temple of Mystra.
Yeahhhhhh... suuure....
Its redundant; if all Dark Elves on Toril were originally Illythiiri, then all Drow on Toril would have also been Illythiiri.
However, it depends on how seperated the related groups considered themselves. it is more then likely the Sethomir still considered themselves Illythiiri at the time of the descent, but it is just as likely that the Miyeritari did not.
It's hard to put together, though, because we have no canon stories taking place previous to this period (except that weird one about the Dragon Kingdoms). While on the surface it almost seems as if the Miyeritari didn't want anything to do with their southern cousins (perhaps these were the ones that left when Ka'Narlist came to power?), on the other hand the Illythiir went 'nutso' when they heard about what happened to their northern brethren - which could have all been 'smoke & mirrors' by the ruling elite to get the general populace to follow them into a war of conquest (VERY believable of the Dark Elves, and an option that plays to both mine and LK's take on them).
Hmmmm... The 'Dark Disaster' = RW 'Weapons of mass Destruction'?
That would make George Bush a Dark Elf, though. :P
Not sure I'm buying that Ilythiiri Drow bit there though LK... I'd question how much would actually be left of Ilythiiri culture in their shattered psyche's after they were transformed into Drow. Well, really, how much would really be left of their culture after all the evil they descended into due to those evil gold elves pushing them into it... ;)
Its redundant; if all Dark Elves on Toril were originally Illythiiri, then all Drow on Toril would have also been Illythiiri.
-At some point in time, Miyeritar came into existence and Miyeritaari culture was born. Influenced by Ilythiiri culture, Miyeritaari culture would have been difference. Much like, how the United States was founded by England, and the original founding fathers British, but in the years that followed, "original" Americans and American culture came into being. Have I used that analogy before? It sounds familiar...
Not sure I'm buying that Ilythiiri Drow bit there though LK... I'd question how much would actually be left of Ilythiiri culture in their shattered psyche's after they were transformed into Drow. Well, really, how much would really be left of their culture after all the evil they descended into due to those evil gold elves pushing them into it... ;)
-They didn't just randomly become amnesiacs.
This would be akin to leaving a fish in the desert, or a penguin in the jungle. Deep down they may have been the same Illythiir, but I think they were all turned into a group of border-line psychopaths by the life-shattering circumstances of their forced withdrawel.
They didn't turn themselves into Drow - the surface Elves did.
They merely survived - and flourished - just to get revenge. In that light, the surface Elves have created their own worst enemy...
But don't they always?
A funny thing, that Hubris, it always come back to bite you in the arse.
You know why 'faerie Elves' hate the Drow so much? Its because they see in them everything they can easily become. Drow are Elves... and they know that. How can they not help thinking...
"There, but for the grace of gods, go I"
They want to destroy the Drow because they hate their own, dark reflections. Inside of every surface Elf, is a twisted caricature waiting to get out.
Look at the story of Drizzt and (insert name here) - he was a Drow, and yet a force for good, She was a surface Elf, but got caught-up in her own quest for vengeance that she could not see past her own hatred, and in the end, it was she that became the murderous monster.
There is another similar story concerning a(n Elven) Vampire and a Vampire-hunter. If you become too obssessed, you become worse then that which you hate. Wise old Elves know this, but 'young-bloods' often fall prey to their inner selves - just look at the Eldreth Veluthra, or most any Gold-Elven families. The Drow did not create Demonfey... ELVES did.
They really aren't so different - surface Elves just have better PR.
-Not me and Zanan right now, no.
Just speak for yourself. I was talking pre-Descent dark elves. Post-Descent ... it would be drow of Ilythiiri pedigree / background, i.e. not drow who became somesuch out of Miyeritari (or any other than Ilythiiri) dark elves.
Edit: Just read reply 132 and please folks, let LK save his face. Remember, it doesn't look good anyway, half-sunk in that swamp ...
ave his face. Remember, it doesn't look good anyway, half-sunk in that swamp ...
-Exactly.
-And, people have fainted looking at this face. It's that beautiful. Ok, well, not really. They might have fainted because of the ugliness, but...
This was also something interesting that my one elven PC I noted learned in her character development, and it turned her into someone who indeed did try to redeem drow prisoners before going toward killing. Instead of killing her enemies, she tried to parlay or apply interrogation when possible (no torture), and with her Sense Motive, she managed to get them to open up to her honestly while promising sanctuary in their prison life so they would not get killed by their own kind or the elves. Eventually, if they cooperated long enough, she would risk them getting free (they were not in prison in a secret place anyway). In her eyes, the drow are still elves.
As for sun elves, there is a good reason why I never play one except as villains. I have a strong biased toward them. If I want an elven noble, I can still play a moon elf with only a slightly haughty attitude and that is it. While individual sun elves are fine and good, the subrace as a whole is the most hypocritical group I ever read about. They act holier-than-thou, yet they bred with demons and attempted to assassinate the Royal Family.
Though, despite the nastiness between elves and drow, the groups who would want to go out of their way to make the other side extinct, to the very last one, are still a minority (genocide of individual tribes and smite-happiness do not apply to this statement). Ed Greenwood wrote something in his Drow of the Underdark to this line, saying that many drow say they want to exterminate the surface elves, but they also do not believe in a holy war. It was a last priority for them compared to taking over the Underdark, I suppose.
Speaking of surface elves, I wanted to see Sheverash become evil, not Hoar. I am sorry, but while hatred and prejudice is all and good, wanting an entire race extinct is still as evil as wanting to subjugate, torture, sacrifice, and enslave. However, that is a topic of debate for another thread.
Regards,
AryaNightingale
There is another similar story concerning a(n Elven) Vampire and a Vampire-hunter. If you become too obssessed, you become worse then that which you hate. Wise old Elves know this, but 'young-bloods' often fall prey to their inner selves - just look at the Eldreth Veluthra, or most any Gold-Elven families. The Drow did not create Demonfey... ELVES did.
They really aren't so different - surface Elves just have better PR.
Tell that to the Hillsfarians.
They think any non-human has the worse PR...unless they are enslaved, fighting in their arenas, or giving their heads freely on a platter to hang outside of their walls.In all seriousness, forgive me if I am wrong, but your quote about the elven vampire reminded me of Jander Sunstar. Does it have anything to do with that? He learned a similar lesson as a sun-elven vampire, going to Ravenloft. Then near the end, he turned more good, strangely enough.
Sincerely,
AryaNightingale
Hmmmm... The 'Dark Disaster' = RW 'Weapons of mass Destruction'?
That would make George Bush a Dark Elf, though. :P
NO!
We WILL NOT have HIM!
You cannot make us!
:fight!:
:fight!:Just an odd (non-FR) queston for those members here who are not American - is ANYONE ever happy with their leaders?
I used to think it was just us, but since about 1990 (and the internet, and forums, etc...) I have come to the conclusion that no-one likes their gov't. It seems a favorite past-time to insult and belittle those in-charge.
It also appears to fall under the same rules as race - you can only make fun of your own (and yes, Americans will defend GW to everyone else, even if we personally could't stand the guy).
Now how to connect this to FR (and not annoy LK)...
I got it!
Cormyr seems to be the one nation that doesn't fall into this very human pattern - the 'little guy' loves their king; it's the nobility that usually has a problem with him (which makes him very 'Obamaesque', or is it that Obama is 'Azounesque'?)
Actually that's a very bad comparison, all things considered... Obama might be the ONLY American politican NOT cheating on his wife... :embarrass
Anyhow, it seems to be human nature, whether Realms or RW, to complain about public officials.
Southpark is a currentday form of satire I enjoy.
The curse included Eilistraee which certainly was ridiculous since she was Correlon's daughter and a good goddess. It's kind of like cursing all black people because Libya brings down an airliner -- it was a complete travesty of justice. It pushed a lot of good dark elves right into Lolth's clutches. I think frankly this is just as great a crime as the ones the Ilythiiri were accused of, though they certainly came close to genocide themselves. Apparently the Ilythiiri weren't too deeply into Lolth worship either because the books say that after the descent, the first drow temples to Lolth were full of wacky symbolism that Lolth found repugnant and for which she punished the drow till they "got it right" leading one to the conclusion that they may have been a long way from being devoted worshippers prior to the descent when they needed Lolth to survive.
I like the explanation that the saved drow might be just elves now except for their dark skin, but there is no evidence of that -- no line in the books that says this, no picture of a dark skinned elf, and no indication in the Drow PC section of PH2. In fact the PH2 drow lack light sensitivity which seems to lend credence to the theory that those ARE redeemed drow -- but if they are, why would they still have any LOLTH based powers? So I think the issue is still in doubt. I don't think we've seen WotC's take on what reformed Drow look like yet.
I wonder what would have happened if the primitive humans had prayed to their gods that these elves were raining down epic scale destruction on all the lands and asked for deliverence? Perhaps those gods might have cursed ALL the elves to the underdark, including Correlon and his entire pantheon. I have a lot more respect for the Middle Earth Elves, even with their obvious flaws.
I think the lesson of the descent and the drow is that noone is corrupt or evil merely because of the color of their skin, and you shouldn't judge a whole race (or in this case sub-race of elves) for the crimes of their leaders. One would hope that the gods would be more selective in their world-shaking punishments.
I've tried to read the 3e and 4e materials I could find (haven't read the lady penitent series of books) on the Drow and their story is really more interesting than most generally assume.
-See Elves of Faerûn for a compilation of all of it.
The Crown Wars didn't start with the dark elves as the villains and there were other elven tribes who were almost as bloodthirsty as the dark elves and THEY weren't cursed, though they were eventually disgraced.
-The Vyshaan were rightly hunted into "extinction". I'd think that's worse. I mean, at the end of the day, most Drow were still among the living.
When the elves cursed the Drow with Correlon's help, they cursed everyone with dark skin more or less indescriminantly whether they had anything to do with the dark elf excesses or not. The books say that many believe that what happened was what always happens when the elves try something big -- they overreach themselves and cause a catastrophe.
The curse included Eilistraee which certainly was ridiculous since she was Correlon's daughter and a good goddess. It's kind of like cursing all black people because Libya brings down an airliner -- it was a complete travesty of justice. It pushed a lot of good dark elves right into Lolth's clutches. I think frankly this is just as great a crime as the ones the Ilythiiri were accused of, though they certainly came close to genocide themselves. Apparently the Ilythiiri weren't too deeply into Lolth worship either because the books say that after the descent, the first drow temples to Lolth were full of wacky symbolism that Lolth found repugnant and for which she punished the drow till they "got it right" leading one to the conclusion that they may have been a long way from being devoted worshippers prior to the descent when they needed Lolth to survive.
-Elves of Faerûn theorizes that Lolth meddled when the casting of that magic was going on, causing ALL Dark Elves, not just those of Ilythiir, to become cursed. Those Drow would then, in turn, come to hate the Elves and the Seldarine. They would then turn to Lolth, who conveniently would appear to them as a "savior" figure, of sorts, and ensnare them all in her proverbial web.
I like the explanation that the saved drow might be just elves now except for their dark skin, but there is no evidence of that -- no line in the books that says this, no picture of a dark skinned elf, and no indication in the Drow PC section of PH2. In fact the PH2 drow lack light sensitivity which seems to lend credence to the theory that those ARE redeemed drow -- but if they are, why would they still have any LOLTH based powers? So I think the issue is still in doubt. I don't think we've seen WotC's take on what reformed Drow look like yet.
-AGHotR invented the concept that Dark Elves were not their own Elven subrace, but rather, simply Green Elves (3e "Wild Elves"). The events in question turned those Drow back into Dark Elves, back into Green Elves (3e "Wild Elves"). In 4e, Green Elves (3e "Wild Elves"), statistically, are simply 'Elves'. Therefore, Dark Elves, statistically are simply 'Elves' in 4e.
--AGHotR invented the concept that Dark Elves were not their own Elven subrace, but rather, simply Green Elves (3e "Wild Elves"). The events in question turned those Drow back into Dark Elves, back into Green Elves (3e "Wild Elves"). In 4e, Green Elves (3e "Wild Elves"), statistically, are simply 'Elves'. Therefore, Dark Elves, statistically are simply 'Elves' in 4e.
Yes but like I said, if the Drow in the PH2 are meant to be these reformed drow, then why do they have Lolth based powers? And if they're just elves (presumably elves vs. eladrin), then why do the Drow in PH2 not have sensitivity to light since they'd still be cursed? And if WotC meant for them to be just elves, why was that not mentioned somewhere, or at least shown in an illustration? Naturally we can all make our own rulings as to where to put them in our games, but I'm just saying we don't really know. Your idea is as good as any I suppose given that there is no satisfying explanation. Maybe the Drow in PH2 ARE cursed but their light sensitivity has been lost as an effect -- maybe it was purely psychological.
On the other hand I just looked Drizzt in the character builder and he shows up as a 4e drow, and surely Drizzt would have been "uncursed" wouldn't he?
Yes but like I said, if the Drow in the PH2 are meant to be these reformed drow, then why do they have Lolth based powers? And if they're just elves (presumably elves vs. eladrin), then why do the Drow in PH2 not have sensitivity to light since they'd still be cursed? And if WotC meant for them to be just elves, why was that not mentioned somewhere, or at least shown in an illustration? Naturally we can all make our own rulings as to where to put them in our games, but I'm just saying we don't really know. Your idea is as good as any I suppose given that there is no satisfying explanation. Maybe the Drow in PH2 ARE cursed but their light sensitivity has been lost as an effect -- maybe it was purely psychological.
-Drow are Drow. Dark Elves are Dark Elves. Stat-wise, Drow =/= Dark Elves and Dark Elves =/= Drow. The stats in the book reflect Drow, and only Drow.
-Dark Elves are, stat-wise in 4e, 'Elves', because Dark Elves were made into Green Elves, and, stat-wise in 4e, Green Elves are 'Elves'.
"Green Elf" became the 'catch-all' for the Elven race (simply called 'Elves' in 4e), and all the sub-groups - Dark (Ilythiir), Wood (Sylvan), and Wild (Grugach) all became plain ol' 'Elves' as of 4e.
The former sub-races have now become simply a difference in 'outlook' for the various groups (depending on the level of technology they employ, and also their level of xenophobia).
Sun (Gold), Moon (Silver), and Star (Sildëyuir) all became Eladrin, as well as the Avariel (flying) variety (which will probably just become an epic path at this point).
Lythari are probably fey now, and may wind up 'seperate' but related to Elves/Eldarin. Personally, I would have combined them with the Loup de noir , whom I find very interesting, and under-used.
In fact, thats yet another notation to make for my own setting...
-Drow are Drow. Dark Elves are Dark Elves. Stat-wise, Drow =/= Dark Elves and Dark Elves =/= Drow. The stats in the book reflect Drow, and only Drow.
-Dark Elves are, stat-wise in 4e, 'Elves', because Dark Elves were made into Green Elves, and, stat-wise in 4e, Green Elves are 'Elves'.
That could be, but why no illustration of a darker skinned/brownish skinned elf or eladrin in the book under elf? And if some good drow were redeemed, wouldn't drizzt as the poster boy for good drow have been turned into a dark elf/green elf? And if so, why does the CB still show him as Drow? Even if you're right, I have some questions about Dark elves. Surely there would be some differences just due to genetic shift for them to be just as different from green elves as green elves are from eladrin. I would think they would have different stat bonuses and proficiencies (after all they don't exactly use the same weapons as elves, even the good ones right)?
If I were writing a PHB3 entry on Dark Elves, I would give them a mix of Elves/Eladrin/Drow stat bonuses and weapon proficiencies, maybe proficiencies with all the modern crossbows instead of bows, and maybe shortswords insted of longswords, and maybe darkvision instead of low light vision even after their transformation, etc. No darkfire, but maybe the native ability to cast light or something to reflect their underdark status, maybe a bonus to dungeoneering rather than nature. Just making them an elf doesn't seem an adequate treatment. They've still spent thousands of years in the dark.
I don't think they will ever get official 4e stats, though. Apparently, from what I gather from other posters, flight causes some unbalancing issues. So, that throws out Avariel right there.
I hope, that they find an elegant solution for that. I'm trying to make fey'ri and I thought about giving them an Encounter power that works like feather fall (when they are in a form that has wings) only that they can glide a certain distance (I'm undecided between 12 squares or twice the falling distance). Full flight would be introduced by the racial paragon path either like for the Scion of Arkhosia or for the Favoured Soul.
And, finally, Lythari...Maybe they'll get stats, since I know 4e has Lycanthropes, and Shifters, which are some derivative of Lycanthropes, so...
As far as I know Lythari in 3E were chaotic good elves with the werewolf template minus hybrid form. The big problem in 4E ist that we don't have level adjustment, so there would be nothing to balance regeneration 5 especially in early levels. And if Lythari would just become elves that can change into wolves it would be a bit sad... There were times when they were completely immune to normal weapons....
I think about making it a graft. You can get it if you are elf, eladrin (or drow :D :D :D ) at 10th level through a ritual if a born lythari is willing to transform you through the ritual. That seems halfway fair, theoretically a ritual caster can get the lich template with all benefits on level 14.... However, I have absolutely no idea how to balance born Lythari without making it dumb... I thought about taking away there proficiencies for metal weapons and armor, but that doesn't hurt spellcasters, I though about losing two healing surges, but I'm not sure if that's balanced.... Gnaaah these are the times I think that 4E as a system is a royal pain in the butt.....
The old Eilistraean shrines and their clergy would be empowered by alternatively Selune/Sehanine/Angharadh and Corellon and fiercely protected for the truth they represent of the races past. Eilistraee would still haunt the dreams of some dark elves somehow.
That could be, but why no illustration of a darker skinned/brownish skinned elf or eladrin in the book under elf?
-There were no illustrations of Dark Elves in the book, period.
And if some good drow were redeemed, wouldn't drizzt as the poster boy for good drow have been turned into a dark elf/green elf? And if so, why does the CB still show him as Drow?
-As evidenced in the prologue and epilogue of The Orc King, Drizzt did not transform, and was a Drow in 1,479 DR. He was not a worshiper of Eilistraee, nor did he (apparently) have untainted Miyeritaari blood running through his veins. So, given those two facts, there's no reason why he'd transform. One's personal outlook had nothing to do with anything; There are/were good & evil Drow, and there are/were good & evil Dark Elves.
Even if you're right, I have some questions about Dark elves. Surely there would be some differences just due to genetic shift for them to be just as different from green elves as green elves are from eladrin. I would think they would have different stat bonuses and proficiencies (after all they don't exactly use the same weapons as elves, even the good ones right)?
-Statistically, Dark Elves are Green Elves, which in 4e, would be 'Elves'. Being as that they don't have super-specific things to define subraces, stats wise, they'd have the same stats as 4e 'Elves'. Just like different Human groups are all statistically the same in D&D, so too would be Dark Elves, concerning the rest of Green Elvendom. Everyone shares the same generic stats.
As far as I know Lythari in 3E were chaotic good elves with the werewolf template minus hybrid form.
-That's, in my opinion, a very basic stat definition of Lythari, but one that worked/works none the less. In Elves of Faerûn, I was going to give them more novel-accurate stats, but I never did. Too much of a pain in the butt.
I don't know what the stance is on water-breathing creatures and all of that, but Aquatic Elves can only exist (without magic) in the water, which isn't the most utilitarian place to set adventures (just like the 'peaceful' Outer Planes), so that seems to throw them out also.
On the water-breathing: water genasi have water-breathing, so I would guess that it is not deemed an unbalancing factor. I am pretty sure that if they make an aquatic elven arce they likely will lift the under water only restriction.
Apparently, from what I gather from other posters, flight causes some unbalancing issues. So, that throws out Avariel right there.
I would not be suprised if they just say they are now completly extinct, because of some dragon-event or some other smaller scale catastrophe during the spellplagued time. Even during 3ed. times they gave them not a real role in the world and wrote most of the remaining Avariel are dead 'cause they were defending this and that and sacrificed for the good of the world (which did not thank it, because it did not know of them). It was always a nice and interesting race but not one they really used besides the occasional name-dropping in one story or sourcebook. It was only this non-flying avariel in the BG games which made them somewhat popular (not that I liked this to much crying character, there was nothing better than the real priestess in there, not too evil, good looking and not lamenting around and best of all, drow!).
On the water-breathing: water genasi have water-breathing, so I would guess that it is not deemed an unbalancing factor. I am pretty sure that if they make an aquatic elven arce they likely will lift the under water only restriction.
-Water Genasi are "Half-Breeds", though, formed by Water Elementals and Humans, so they'd have their Human heritage to allow them to breathe air and water, and exist safely on land and in sea. Being able to breathe air, that's the "breaking point", since they wouldn't have to worry about being only to survive in only one environment. Aquatic Elves, without "outside interference" (ie, items or magic) don't have that capability. They can only breathe water, and, physiologically, they need contact with water (fresh or salt), like aquatic mammals- staying out of the water for too long, as demonstrated in Tangled Webs is no good for them, physically. That's where the problem stems; without "outside interference", they're not going to be able to exist out of the water for too long, which is what is the main problem, being that, since D&D adventuring is being stressed, and aquatic campaigns aren't the most heavily used of settings, and being that other places that weren't the most heavily used of settings, like the Good Outer Planes were eliminated. I am sure that if 4e has a book dealing with underwater adventuring and stuff, like 3e's Stormwreck, and 2e's Sea of Fallen Stars, you'll see them. In a book that's totally about being only underwater, it wouldn't make sense not to have rules for being characters who existed in that environment.
I would not be suprised if they just say they are now completly extinct, because of some dragon-event or some other smaller scale catastrophe during the spellplagued time. Even during 3ed. times they gave them not a real role in the world and wrote most of the remaining Avariel are dead 'cause they were defending this and that and sacrificed for the good of the world (which did not thank it, because it did not know of them). It was always a nice and interesting race but not one they really used besides the occasional name-dropping in one story or sourcebook. It was only this non-flying avariel in the BG games which made them somewhat popular (not that I liked this to much crying character, there was nothing better than the real priestess in there, not too evil, good looking and not lamenting around and best of all, drow!).
-It's possible. But, if anything, the 3e trend seemed to imply the opposite, that the Avariel population was actually growing, and becoming more open to interacting with the rest of the world, with an increased "diplomacy" between the Avariel and the surface Elves, as mentioned in Races of Faerûn.
Will their offspring have changed too? Now into ordinary half-elves (or what's this new stupid word, half-eladablabla)?