Of them all, there are several missing from the books (I am actually pleased that so few were changed or removed). I am posting this here in the hopes that people might have sources, threads, or other information about the fate of these beings...or speculation as to what might have happened to them.
DEAD, MISSING, SUBSUMED, OR NOT-LISTED GODS
The following gods aren't in the book. This means that they are either (a) dead (Mystra); (b) missing; (c) have been subsumed by other gods (Hanali Celanil); or (d) exist but aren't listed as being unimportant (say, like, Lurue).
- Lathander--Became Amaunator. (FRCG)
- Hanali Celanil--Subsumed: Apparently always an aspect of Sune, also Angharradh (FRCG (Sune), F&P (Angharradh))
- Sehanine Moonbow--Exists as Angharradh (who was Hanali, Sehanine & Aerdrie) (F&P), also as Selune (per Rich Baker Ask-the-Author)
- Aerdrie Faenya--Actually Akadi (see Evereska entry in FRCG)
- Ubtao--Actually a primordial. Location and fate unknown. Turned on the other primordials early on in history; stayed in Faerun. (FRCG, p 42)
- Talos--Merged with/was always an aspect of Gruumsh (Rich Baker Ask-the-Authors thread)
- Yondalla--Merged into Chauntea (Rich Baker Ask-the-Authors thread)
- Nobanion--Exarch of Silvanus, lives on material plane (original Countdown to the Realms article, though note this is not reflected in the FRCG; the original article was rescinded and reposted without data on Nobanion. Whether the Firemane mentioned in the new updated article is actually Nobanion is unknown.)
Dead Gods (CONFIRMED): - Eilistraee--Dead: Killed by a servant of Llolth in an FR novel
- Mystra--Dead: Assassinated by Cyric, caused spellplague (FRCG)
- Tyr--Dead: Died defending the upper realms from demonic incursion (FRCG)
- Azuth--Dead: Wound up in the Nine Hells after Dweomerheart's destruction and killed by Asmodeus (FRCG)
- Helm--Dead: Slain by Tyr in a duel arranged by Cyric (FRCG, GHR)
- Deep Duerra--Dead: Died fighting the Dwarven gods (GHR)
- Gorm Gulthyn--Dead: Died eliminating the Duergar gods (GHR)
- Haela Brightaxe--Dead: Died eliminating the Duergar gods (GHR)
- Laduguer--Dead: Died in a fight with the Dwarven gods (GHR)
- Velsharoon--Dead: Consumed by fire; corpse in Aglarondian hands (FRCG)
- Savras--Dead: Killed in the collapse of Dweomerheart (Countdown to the Realms)
- Deneir -- Vanished: Unknown (FRCG)
Changes (UNCONFIRMED): - Rillifane Ralathil--subsumed by Silvanus? (no source)
Fate Unknown: - Gwaeron Windstrom--Unknown: Likely subsumed by Mielikki or killed by Malar (from Faiths and Pantheons clues at least)
- Lurue--Unknown, may simply just not have been mentioned
- Ulitiu--Unknown (probably still snoozing/dead or subsumed by Auril)
- Mask--Unknown
- Shaundakul--Unknown
- Dumathoin--Unknown
- Eldath --Unknown
- Finder--Unknown
- Flandal Steelskin--Unknown
- Gaerdal Ironhand--Unknown
- Gargauth--Unknown
- Ilneval--Unknown
- Rillifane Rallathil--Unknown
- Segojan Earthcaller--Unknown
- Sharindlar--Unknown
- Urdlen --Unknown
- Urogalan--Unknown
- Yurtrus--Unknown
NOTES:
Other nonhuman, monstrous deities such as Ilsensine and Baphomet aren't mentioned on purpose as the length would get WAY too long for a decent post/thread.
We are also told that some gods' fates have not been revealed intentionally (like Mask), as future writings will/may illuminate what happen(ed) to them. This is as nonspecific as it gets.
1) Velsharoon is dead. His corpse is kept as a monument to the Simbul (who was thought to have died in the same fires that consumed Velsharoon.
2) Akadi has always been Aerdrie Faenya. This information on Evereska included that.
I'm quite surprised there are so many unknowns at this point. I get the FRCG tomorrow and expect to be pretty disappointed.
18DELTA
1) Are truly dead
2) Passed into Abeir
3) Left the Realms
According to the FRCG those seem to be the options.
He forgot a few--but the time it took to compile this alone says enough.
I'm sure I forgot a few. I am hoping people can tell me which ones I forgot, so I can add them to the list above and maybe we can hack out some data on exactly what became of them (or create our own fan speculation regarding this).
I'm quite surprised there are so many unknowns at this point. I get the FRCG tomorrow and expect to be pretty disappointed.
most are
I'm sure I forgot a few. I am hoping people can tell me which ones I forgot, so I can add them to the list above and maybe we can hack out some data on exactly what became of them (or create our own fan speculation regarding this).
All up for that, my man. Sure I'll have some theories once I am able to get my eyes on things.
Like, I'm sure that Garagos was attacked and eaten by a bunch of 18DELTA's smileys.
Poor bastard.
...you can assume that deities who don't appear on the list are no more. The exact circumstances of each one's departure are something that we didn't detail, because it's not necessarily relevant to the "snapshot" of the world you see in the new FRCG. However, I imagine that future DDi articles might explore some of these topics at greater depth, just like the Cormyr article goes into a lot more detail about the Forest Kingdom than the 2-page spread in the FRCG.
We have a "secret timeline" in house where many of those events are set in order, and the exact fates of missing deities are specifically noted. So we do know what happened to most of those deities. They're not included in the new FRCG because it's not terribly useful to fill a book with things that aren't actually present in the current day. Some of those are fine, of course--you want people to know about the origin of old ruins, or ancient catastrophes that might have left adventure-ful legacies in the modern era. But is it really that important to most FR campaigns that there used to be a goddess of streams and ponds called Eldath?
(And yes, I'm not saying anything about Mask because that's Paul Kemp's story to tell.)
most are
That's why I am going to throw on my happy face and read it with pleasure!!!
:D ...
The reason I made this thread wasn't to get into a relative debate about 4E FR vs. 3.5 FR and what's good and what isn't.
I made this thread because I have an intense interest in the deities of the Realms, find the 4E version of FR to be interesting--my actual verdict on it is still out--and I want to know what the story is with the gods, or be able to create one/borrow one if people come up with interesting stuff.
I looked for this info on other threads but all I found were people *****ing back and forth about their favorite things being blown up, destroyed, mangled, Rich Baker Must Be Stopped, etcetera, etcetera.
So if we could keep the hating and baiting to a minimum and just try to make this an informational thread, that would be great.
damn judges
Gwaeron Windstrom--Unknown: F&P has him listed as in danger of being subsumed by Mielikki or killed by Malar. If anything, he would be an Exarch. His sphere seems to be taken up by Baervan Wildwanderer (Travel), a gnomish deity; or Marthammor Duin (Explorers) a Dwarven deity. He's an easy victim.
Lurue--Unknown, may simply just not have been mentioned
Nobanion--Unknown, may simply just not have been mentioned
These two gods may simply not have been mentioned, which is what I think happened--intelligent good monsters got short shrift in 4E, why not their gods in the FR? Alternatively, Mielikki may have had to subsume them in order to maintain her status as a God in the wake of the spellplague.
Ubtao--Unknown, With the almost-total destruction of Chultan civilization, he is probably dead.
Which should be a story in and of itself, if anyone really cares to write about Chult.
Ulitiu--Unknown (probably still snoozing/dead or subsumed by Auril)
The sleeping god was always kinda boring and mostly a floating corpse to begin with.
Mask--Unknown
Ah, Mask. I can't wait to see what they do with him and don't really want to speculate.
Shaundakul--Unknown
See also Gwaeron Windstrom, above.
Deneir --Unknown
Despite the awesomeness of Cadderly, Denier was always pretty much a superfluous deity when one considers Oghma and Sune. I don't know why or how they got rid of him, but he would also be a pretty good victim for any number of gods who would want his knowledge and/or power.
Dumathoin--Unknown
Between Kelemvor and the remixing of the gods to have almost all races represented in one large pantheon (rather than having all different races worship different gods), this minor dwarven deity must've been considered superfluous.
Eldath --Unknown
Wow, I always hated Eldath and I'm so glad someone finally killed her. Maybe it was Malar. I mean, seriously, everything she could do was done better by Silvanus and/or Mielikki. It'd be one thing if she were a goddess of peace, but she wasn't. The only thing that really made her INTERESTING was her role in contrast with Tempus, but that's not enough to garner worshippers.
Finder--Unknown
While an interesting character in novels, he never did seem to have any sort of divinity about him--his garnering of Moander's power was more in the way of an accident than anything else. With the loss of the saurials, his major source of worshippers, his disappearance isn't really all that odd. (I don't actually know that they're gone but they aren't mentioned, like, anywhere, unless the location of Darkwatch is any sort of clue. I don't expect them to make a reappearance.)
that's all for now, anyone else?
Finder--Unknown
While an interesting character in novels, he never did seem to have any sort of divinity about him--his garnering of Moander's power was more in the way of an accident than anything else. With the loss of the saurials, his major source of worshippers, his disappearance isn't really all that odd. (I don't actually know that they're gone but they aren't mentioned, like, anywhere, unless the location of Darkwatch is any sort of clue. I don't expect them to make a reappearance.)
-The Shadowvar discovered the Hidden Dale and attacked it, claiming it for their own. The Saurials living there fled into the Underdark.
Anyone else have any speculation/confirmation of anything?
As for Sehanine...needless to say, I find it pretty amusing she survived in the CORE PHB rules but not in FR.
The information on the saurials was found under the Dales (Tarkhaldale) (pg. 112).
Ubtao was retconned into never being a god but instead a primordial who turned on his fellows and remained in Faerun instead of Abeir. I would assume he is still around or perhaps left to return to the Elemental Chaos.
I don't mean to question you but...well, actually, we should have sources for everything that're traceable to make sure that things which sound official aren't. Even the early developer's comments about some of these things can be viewed as suspect given the changes made in the book from what we knew before.
I'm going to update the original post with sources.
Talos--Merged with/was always an aspect of Gruumsh? (I can't find a source for this)
-This was also in Rich Baker's thread.
I know that they probably have other followers in Realms space.) of their followers are no-longer around. The only reason why that Patheon was around was because of their people were brought to the Realms. I got a picture in my mind of a shepard with a flock of sheep. Now that the sheep are gone they went back to where they are from.-Yes I just got the book.
18DELTA :D
Now that the sheep are gone they went back to where they are from.
-Of course, we have no information that their people there exist anymore, either. If they are indeed the Ancient Egyptians, from Earth, as has always been heavily implied, the culture is most certainly dead.
I would provide a link if I was capable of finding it.
Nobanion is mentioned in a Countdown to the Realms article. He's now an exarch of Silvanus and lives in the Natural World.
I would provide a link if I was capable of finding it.
-That article was rescinded, edited, and re offered, excluding the part with Nobanion. He is no longer an exarch of Silvanus.
-That article was rescinded, edited, and re offered, excluding the part with Nobanion. He is no longer an exarch of Silvanus.
Maybe they began to truly feel bad with all this crap.
Here's an interesting bit.
After reading the reply above, I did some searches. I found a cut-and-pasted version of the article in question which included the following passage:
PRIDE OF THE FIREMANE: Zalaznar Crinios (CE dark tree druid 20), has turned away from the teachings of Eldath to embrace Malar, who "rewarded" the High Druid by transforming him into a Dark Tree (Shining South p62). Zalaznar is gathering a great host of fell beasts to sack the forest community of Gurnth (village; population ~300). Nobanion is calling all able-bodied adventurers to his side at Machran Spire in an effort to counter the pending invasion.
Nobanion
Lord Firemane, Lord of Gulthandor
Unaligned Exarch of Silvanus
Seen as a great protector and guardian across the Vilhon Wilds, Nobanion (No-BAN-yun) appears as a great male lion of at least twice normal size. His coat gleams with the radiance of the sun, and his mane is incredibly thick and luxurious. Sometimes the Lion God's mane ignites in a nimbus of amber and golden fire, the origin of his title "Lord Firemane." At will he can sprout the wings of a gigantic eagle.
Thought to be a favored champion of Silvanus, Nobanion now rules the forested realm of Gulthandor from the druidic stronghold of Cedarsproke. Beyond Gulthandor, Lord Firemane is also honored as the titular ruler of the wemic Tenpaw tribe of the Shining Plains. Clerics of Silvanus who honor the tenets of the King of Lions are known as Roaring Avengers.
Exarchs
The exarchs are often called demigods or heroes, and many are ascended mortal servants of greater gods, brought up from the world to serve as agents of their divine masters. Many, but not all, attract worshipers of their own, and they have some ability to grant spells, but are more often simply conduits from the mortal world to the attention of the higher gods. For example, the druids of Gulthandor pay homage to the Lion God, but in reality the character's divine spells are being granted by Nobanion's patron, Silvanus. Unlike true deities, exarchs are not bound to live in Astral Dominions with their patrons. Like Nobanion, many choose to live on the Material Plane, more directly engaged in the lives of their mortal followers.
Finally, exarchs in D&D campaigns are fully intended to be defeatable by any epic-level PC strong enough to attempt it. Of course, immortal beings are not just sitting around waiting for epic-level adventurers to take their life. And should the PCs even succeed in such an endeavor, they'll surely have earned the wrath of the exarch's patron deity.
But then, wanting the original source, I searched and found this:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080227a
which includes the following passage in the same general location of the article:
North and west of Turmish beyond the Orsraun and Alaoreum Mountains stretches the forested realm of Gulthandor. Gulthandor has no ties with the largely disbanded organization once known as the Emerald Enclave. Ilighôn, once the island home of the Enclave, became part of mainland Turmish when the seas retreated in 1386 DR.
...
PRIDE OF FIREMANE: Zalaznar Crinios (NE treant druid 12), has secretly turned away from the teachings of Mielikki to embrace Malar, who "rewarded" the High Druid by transforming him into a treant. Crinios used this transformation as proof he is meant to lead in Gulthandor. Dark creatures now threaten the forest, as well as nearby settlements. Unaware of Crinios’s duplicity, a druid who prefers lion form and calls himself Firemane has put out the call for those willing to purge the forest of whatever blight grows at its heart.
So, it looks like (if the original cut-and-paste was accurate, and it looks like it is) that they changed it. Whether this means Nobanion is or isn't an exarch, I dunno.
So, it looks like (if the original cut-and-paste was accurate, and it looks like it is) that they changed it. Whether this means Nobanion is or isn't an exarch, I dunno.
-Told you. What, you doubted me? I am hurt...
Didn't doubt you--just didn't read your post about it after I was done posting mine.
-So, you're saying that you're ignoring me, then?
:P
While he isn't mentioned in the Gods section, page 44 has a treasure description that says:
"100gp: A quill pen case made of gold, held shut by a clasp. Carved into the case is a scene of a scribe writing in a tome, sitting on a stool amidst stacks of parchment; the symbol of Deneir is engraved on the opposite side."
Could he be an exarch that isn't listed?
Could he be an exarch that isn't listed?
-Nothing in that description lends me that notion. It's only a picture on the box, correct? That he's mentioned is a good thing, though.
Another interesting tidbit:
While he isn't mentioned in the Gods section, page 44 has a treasure description that says:
"100gp: A quill pen case made of gold, held shut by a clasp. Carved into the case is a scene of a scribe writing in a tome, sitting on a stool amidst stacks of parchment; the symbol of Deneir is engraved on the opposite side."
Could he be an exarch that isn't listed?
You can also get a strand of Mystra's hair....I wouldn't read too much in to it.
Eldath --Unknown
Wow, I always hated Eldath and I'm so glad someone finally killed her. Maybe it was Malar. I mean, seriously, everything she could do was done better by Silvanus and/or Mielikki. It'd be one thing if she were a goddess of peace, but she wasn't. The only thing that really made her INTERESTING was her role in contrast with Tempus, but that's not enough to garner worshippers.
I have always loved Eldath. Yeah I know in 4th edition where every power has to deal damage she just doesn't work in the limited scope of the game...but you should check your facts she IS(or was) the goddess of Peace.
I have always loved Eldath. Yeah I know in 4th edition where every power has to deal damage she just doesn't work in the limited scope of the game...but you should check your facts she IS(or was) the goddess of Peace.
-That's one of the things that frustrates me the most with:
A) The design goals
B) New players*
C) Old players*
-Not everything makes sense IN RELATION TO YOUR CHARACTER. But, 90% of the things that are present make sense IN RELATION TO THE WIDER WORLD.
*Not everyone, of course.
-That's one of the things that frustrates me the most with:
A) The design goals
B) New players*
C) Old players*
-Not everything makes sense IN RELATION TO YOUR CHARACTER. But, 90% of the things that are present make sense IN RELATION TO THE WIDER WORLD.
*Not everyone, of course.
Yeah I really think this is where the The New FR and 4th edition fails for me. It seems that the design goals limited to what the design staff could imagine and what is use to players...for instance what use would a PC have for a god of farming? According to them none...barring the fact that a farming god probably would have a millitant sect to protect the farms and such from bandits and monsters(especialy in their PoL setting) not to mention artifacts etc that could have them producing adventuring cleris...we'll ignore this for a second. Um since the church doesn't have adventurers wouldn't they be hioring adventures to do the things above? Thus would it have great value to a DM or possibly a gero who grew up on a farm( ala Luke Skywalker and about a dozen other examples in the movies and literature) worship this god because that was how they were raised? Heck that was the plot for the Seven magnifiecent Gunfighters.
So we loose the goddess of peace because they couldn't imagine how that would be useful...I can come up with atleast 3 character concepts and a dozen adventure ideas and a full campaign based around a goddess of peace. true I can just come up w/ the goddess of peace...but I think I'll just stick with a system that allow me to be creative without having to create a 30 new powers, etc just to properly convey it.
A god of farming can still exist though and may show up in a later article. The designers did not feel that they needed to fill up the book with gods that may not be of immediate use to most gamers. Most people IMO playing D&D will not need a farm god or god of peace and water. These gods may just appeal to a very small aspect of gamers/consumers out there and the designers probably felt like they did not need to include them. They very well could exist in the setting even though they are not in the main campaign book. ;)
Hey Rauric good to see you...well read your posts.
Sure but I think you missed my point...the game itself doesn't support a goddes of peace. How would you build a pacifistic cleric in 4th edition? I could do so just using core in 3.5. I don't see anyway to do so in 4th...or even come close to it.
Also how much space are we talking here...a line on a chart....
Also lets be honest here DDI isn't really worth buying into from the free sample they have given....
D&D has always had a combat focus people. Always. You had to figure out how to work in pacifist gods and their clerics into the game, not the designers. Why? Because (most likely IMO) only a very small
portion of the gamer population wanted to actually play a pasicfist in D&D, a game about fantasy combat, originally based on a mini WARgame.
The designers do not have to focus on a small community for the intitial book. They can do so in later articles. For now be at ease with the thought that Eldath and other "missing" gods are still around, but the book did not focus on them in any way.
I like DDI articles so far so I am sure I will be satified with future content. I liked Dungeon magazine but always found Dragon to be a waste most of the time. Like I said DDI works for me.
Read my sig. The one about how people complained about 3E i just like they are complaining about 4E. It (3e) was called a video game. People said it would suck the rping from D&D. It did not do any of those things, and neither will 4E.
D&D has always had a combat focus people. Always. You had to figure out how to work in pacifist gods and their clerics into the game, not the designers. Why? Because (most likely IMO) only a very small
portion of the gamer population wanted to actually play a pasicfist in D&D, a game about fantasy combat, originally based on a mini WARgame.
The designers do not have to focus on a small community for the intitial book. They can do so in later articles. For now be at ease with the thought that Eldath and other "missing" gods are still around, but the book did not focus on them in any way.
I like DDI articles so far so I am sure I will be satified with future content. I liked Dungeon magazine but always found Dragon to be a waste most of the time. Like I said DDI works for me.
Focus? one little lousy line on a chart? Is a focus? Heck that is all I ask... actualy I really wished they did this with all the gods then forgot that they existed as they really do a lousy job with them anyway.
And no I never said the that 3rd edition was videop gamey...I mean the fact is video games have been for years trying to like table top games...and I never said 4th edtion is video gamey. But it is defintly much more of a straitjecket then 3rd edition ever was. And I am not talking about the entireity of 3rd vs 4th ed core(which is all we have) I am talking about 3rd ed core vs 4th ed core.
By the by, there *IS* a god of farming in the 4E FR. She's Chauntea, same as it ever was.
-In the High Imaskari write up, it mentions that Mulharand was scoured by the spellplague (PAGE 138 FRCG). When I read that I realized that the Mulharand Pantheon didn't need to be around anymore because the Bulk(for those that want to try and correct my opinion.
-Yes I just got the book.
18DELTA :D
But ppl in Gheldaneth still paint circles in his heads... Mulhorandi ppl and culture still alive... cults of mulhorandi deities is baned by the Imaskari iron fist.
why should gods that so long protect their children... simply leave when ppl needed most, without any good explanation?
only reason i can think is that all gods dominion and the main part of the city of the gods in Mulhorandi reaper in Abeir...
so much changes, and so weak explanations...
in the entry about spirit soaring it just says
'Once a temple to the vanished god Deneir'
and that's I could find at least
Okay, bit of a tangent here, I'm sure y'all can find lots of other threads to argue about what y'all love hate or are indifferent about in the Realms.
By the by, there *IS* a god of farming in the 4E FR. She's Chauntea, same as it ever was.
Yes the whole point about the god of farming was taken from their design philophies from one of the preveiw books....and she is not so much the goddess of agiculture but of how 'sentient creatures interact with the natural world'. Yeah I don't get that much either.
Also I was just correcting a mistake you made.
But yes we can move this discussion elsewhere...
When I spoke with Ed Greenwood at D&D XP last February about the rumored changes--at the time I was particularly miffed about the concept of Helm and Tyr fighting it out over the hand of Tymora--he told me that the stuff in Grand History of the Realms was only *one* possible explanation for what had occurred, implying that that was only what current dogma as perpetuated by the historians/churches had put out. Whether or not that was what *actually* happened was up to me, and I should feel free to change it or make my own storyline about it.
That being said, given the information we have about the Spellplague and the loss of magic and its effects on the gods and goddesses, it's my belief that the changes to the deities occurred as a result of gods attempting to hang on to their power via absorbing, subsuming, or otherwise grabbing power from other deities. There's certainly precedence for this in Realmslore as it stands, especially during the original Time of Troubles.
In the case of the good gods, this could very well be--in fact, I would say it was--voluntary merging of lesser and demigods/exarchs with gods above them in a "well, here we both are on this boat. we're starving. one of us has to eat the other in order to survive. so I'll sacrifice myself." bit. The possibility of the gods actually re-emerging after a time also exists.
Evil gods could be much more predatory.
I would also state that one reason that the demihuman deities who have subsumed portfolios once belonging to human deities might well be that the farther a deity was from Dweomerheart, the safer one was.
Consider that the planes have undergone a realignment, as so:
Original Planes (now gone):
The Abyss: Kicked to the curb at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos.
Dweomerheart (destroyed) was home to Azuth, Mystra, Savras and Velsharoon. All of these gods are dead.
Brightwater: has either (a) merged with the Gates of the Moon or (b) had its denizens moved there as refugees or (c) had Selune come and rename the place in her honor. Of the gods in this realm, all survived.
Dragon Eyrie: Has either merged with Celestia (unlikely) or its deities (if any other than Tiamat and Bahamut still exist, which is unliely) have moved to other planes (Bahamut in Celestia; Tiamat in Banehold).
Elemental Planes: Have become the Elemental Chaos. All the gods (primordials) here survived.
Fury's Heart: Merged into the Deep Wilds. With the exception of Talos, who was subsumed by Gruumsh, all the former residents live in the Deep Wilds.
Gates of the Moon (note): Of the gods originally extant here, only Selune survives. Finder and Shaundakul are both gone (see below about Shaundakul). The question here is: did Brightwater merge with GotM or the other way around? The name of the new plane is GotM, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
One interesting missing person from Gates of the Moon is Shaundakul, who was the god of (among other things) portals. With the major disruption of portals by the spellplague, perhaps he was destroyed as a result of that (or perhaps his death caused many of them to stop working or malfunction).
The Golden Hills: This plane is no more. Of its residents, only Flandal Steelskin, Gaerdal Ironhand, Segojan Earthcaller, and Urdlen perished. (Or perhaps it's better to say that only Garl Glittergold, Baervan Wildwanderer, Baravar Cloakshadow and Calladuran Smoothhands survived). They all now live in Arvandor with the elves. What happened here is entirely unclear. Historically, the gnomes and elves have always had some of the closer ties between demihuman races; it's not unthinkable that Corellon offered them refuge if the Hills were under attack or had other issues.
The House of Nature: This realm no longer exists. Interestingly enough, Chauntea, Lathander, Silvanus all were in this realm. What apparently happens here is that Lathander takes Siamorphe (from the dissolution of the House of the Triad), Waukeen (from Brightwater) and transforms into Amaunator forming the Eternal Sun; Chauntea heads off on her own to Green Fields (taking refuge with and subsuming Yondalla); and Silvanus grabs Auril, Malar, Shialla, Mielikki, and Umberlee to form the Deep Wilds.
The majority of missing/dead gods with no explanation behind their disappearance on the lists come from this realm: Lurue, Nobanion, Ubtao, Eldath, Gwaeron Windstrom, and "various animal lords and the deities of many nature-oriented creatures".
The situation I believe may well be the case here is that the House of Nature, being tied to the natural world of Toril perhaps particularly strongly, was affected greatly by Abeir's return and the Plaguelands effects as well as that of the Spellplague caused major disruptions that led to such a dissolution and mass casualties amongst lesser gods, who perhaps gave up their essences to either be absorbed by Greater Gods trying to keep some semblance of the realms together or to fight the effects of such problems on the plane itself before succumbing.
Hammergrim: Destroyed and dispersed into the Astral Sea during the War of Gold and Gloom in 1383.
Heliopolis: Gone, along with the Mulhorandi pantheon who inhabited it. Tiamat moved in with Bane.
House of the Triad: In 1384, after the death of Helm, Ilmater relocated to Brightwater. This leaves Torm and Tyr in the House. Ilmater, after the presumed merging of Brightwater, moves into Celestia, which is inhabited by Torm now--which probably was what the House of the Triad became or was renamed to.
Plane of Shadow: This plane became the Shadowfell. Shar moved in to the Towers of Night. Mask's fate is also unknown.
New Cosmology:
Arvandor (Corellon): (Same. All the gods here survived, with the exception of Rillifane Ralathil.)
Banehold (Bane) (Barrens of Doom and Despair): Talona moved out to become Shar's roomie. Beshaba moved out to shack up with Tempus. Otherwise, Hoar and Loviatar are all chillin' with the Bane man, along with Tiamat.
Celestia (Torm): Probably the remains of the House of the Triad. These days, it's kinda a lonely place with Ilmater and Bahamut living there.
Cynosure (Neutral Ground): (Same)
Deep Wilds (Silvanus): See above entry re: House of Nature.
Demonweb Pits (Lolth): Same. Llolth survived, though the other Drow gods did not (and were presumably killed by Llolth, per the entry on Ghaunador).
Dismal Caverns (Ghaunadaur): This is what was apparently formerly known as the Deep Caverns.
Dwarfhome (Moradin): Same. All of the gods here survived with the exceptions of Haela Brightaxe (dead) and Gorm Gulthyn (dead) who died in a war that also apparently slew Deep Duerra and Laduguer) pre-Spellplague; and Sharindlar, who we have no explanation for the disappearance of.
Eternal Sun (Amaunator): Everyone's favorite god of renewal, now the big bad Sun God, has a cozy little setup here. He's chillaxin' with Siamorphe, which makes sense, and Waukeen, which is a pretty weird match. Maybe she's funding the big guy's ego/holy war, or maybe she's got some good blackmail material on him, or maybe she's giving him some on the side.
Fugue Plane (Kelemvor) (Same. Kelemvor and Jergal survive.): Yeah, you wouldn't really think that a place so chock-full of soul energy would be affected much by anything.
Gates of the Moon (Selune and Sune) (Gates of the Moon + Brightwater): See above speculation.
Green Fields (Chauntea): Here's an interesting one. Chauntea's realm was originally the House of Nature. How she wound up in the domain of the Halflings is pretty remarkable when you think about it. See also House of Nature, above.
House of Knowledge (Oghma): Not really that different, with the exception of Deneir's vanishing. Maybe he was in the stacks when the quake hit and a bunch of books fell on him...or maybe they just didn't notice he was gone until it was too late.
Nine Hells (Asmodeus): Our dark-horse candidate for godhood really whupped some butt in the chaos, bumping the Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos. It's not that he really needed to do much. The funny thing about Asmodeus is his portfolio/sphere of "Sin", which is pretty silly given that "sin" is a word usually associated with transgression against a divine law. Does he have worshippers who give him power by disobeying him? Has the punishment for being False changed to being brought into the Nine Hells? Have the baatezu solicitors on the waiting line for divine messengers reaped a harvest from those souls waiting for emissaries from gods that are dead? All of these questions and more will be answered on next Geraldo: Mysteries of Deneir's Vault!
Nishrek (Gruumsh): Preeeetty much par for the course. How, exactly, Gruumsh absorbed Talos is probably a really neat story. Ilneval and Yurtrus both seem to have bitten the big one, but then again, it would certainly be within Gruumsh's general personality (and if not his, than Bahgtru's or Shargaas's) to subsume them to increase or maintain their own power. Without Shargaas, though, I am guessing that Luthic's getting pretty tired of being the only female up there.
Supreme Throne (Cyric): Second verse, same as the first.
Towers of Night (Shar): Where she went when she lost dominion over all of Shadow. Unsurprisingly shacked up with Talona.
Warrior's Rest (Tempus) (Same): Probably a rockin' party palace, what with all the inhabitants: Garagos, Red Knight, Tempus, Uthgar, and Valkur. Just the right number for a great game of Axis and Allies.
Astral Plane: Ulutiu is unexplained. With the massive disruptions to the regular planes, eddies in the space-time continuum (get him out!) may have destroyed Ulutiu.
That's what I got for now. What do y'all think?
Eldath (reading F&P) was *primarily* the guardian of groves. Her portfolio is listed as "Quiet places, springs, pools, peace and waterfalls" and she has a list of titles such as "Goddess of Singing Waters, Mother Guardian of Groves, the Green Goddess". Her existance as a goddess of peace was (while somewhat unique in the Realms) not exactly her most important aspect. Even her dogma allows for fighting in self-defense (which I don't think her clerics could do in 2nd edition if memory serves). The emphasis on her necessity in the 4E realms as a goddess of peace, I think, is somewhat misplaced as while that's what the players note her for (and I did, until you corrected me), and while it's one aspect of who she is, it's not her primary aspect by her description.
Re: "how sentient creatures interact with the natural world" for Chauntea.
Her Sphere is listed as Life and her description says "She holds sway not so much over the natural world, but over the way in which sentient mortals interact with the natural world. The Great Mother is revered by any who depend on the land for their livelihood. A kindly mistress, she ensures healthy harvests to those who treat the tilled earth with the respect she demands."
I'd say that's pretty much "farming" if you include that second sentence there. And herding. And fishing. And well, ya get the idea.
This is rampant speculation (and along the lines of, "We aren't including 100 years of history mostly because we want you to come up with your own reasons.")
When I spoke with Ed Greenwood at D&D XP last February about the rumored changes--at the time I was particularly miffed about the concept of Helm and Tyr fighting it out over the hand of Tymora--he told me that the stuff in Grand History of the Realms was only *one* possible explanation for what had occurred, implying that that was only what current dogma as perpetuated by the historians/churches had put out. Whether or not that was what *actually* happened was up to me, and I should feel free to change it or make my own storyline about it.
That's what I got for now. What do y'all think?
Well that is all good and well the flaw I see in this is as a DM I need to know what actualy happened. Especialy since at high levels in 4th edition it is expected that the PCs will start rubbing elbows with these beings.
I mean I know the DM and the players can do whatever they want...by then why buy the books? I used to buy them because they were really a good spark for creativity and a good basis to build things around that I don't have the time to build myself. Now I just don't see why they can't just let us know what really happened...or offer a couple possibilities like the do in Eberron.
If I want to read a story I read a book if I want to tell a story I play a RPG...see the difference here?
Re: Eldath
Eldath (reading F&P) was *primarily* the guardian of groves. Her portfolio is listed as "Quiet places, springs, pools, peace and waterfalls" and she has a list of titles such as "Goddess of Singing Waters, Mother Guardian of Groves, the Green Goddess". Her existance as a goddess of peace was (while somewhat unique in the Realms) not exactly her most important aspect. Even her dogma allows for fighting in self-defense (which I don't think her clerics could do in 2nd edition if memory serves). The emphasis on her necessity in the 4E realms as a goddess of peace, I think, is somewhat misplaced as while that's what the players note her for (and I did, until you corrected me), and while it's one aspect of who she is, it's not her primary aspect by her description.
Re: "how sentient creatures interact with the natural world" for Chauntea.
Her Sphere is listed as Life and her description says "She holds sway not so much over the natural world, but over the way in which sentient mortals interact with the natural world. The Great Mother is revered by any who depend on the land for their livelihood. A kindly mistress, she ensures healthy harvests to those who treat the tilled earth with the respect she demands."
I'd say that's pretty much "farming" if you include that second sentence there. And herding. And fishing. And well, ya get the idea.
And her cleric in 1st/2nd/3rd are called peacebringers I would say that probably was a very important aspect of her worship...I mean they weren't called pondguardians or something like that. And in all edition they could fight to defend themselves or others in their care.
As to Chauntea she was never really a agicultural goddess as much as a earthmother figure. Yes she has farming as a portfolio...but like Eldath is more then just calm waters and druid groves Chauntea is much more then just a agicultural goddess. Also it would be hard to axe from the setting as accpording to the mythology she is the setting.
That is what gets me about this new edition. You said you hate Eldath. You just probably just never saw one played well and well you probably never will now.
Anyway we should stop on this tangent on this thread...I mean we could just have this conversation in person after all.
Anyway, all that nitpickiness aside, what do people think about the cosmological changes as they apply to the alteration and potential fates of the gods? It's just my theories on things but I am curious for feedback.
Yeah sure if you like you gods like immortals from the Highlander movies....it as good of a justification as any for bad writting.
THANK you.
By the by, there *IS* a god of farming in the 4E FR. She's Chauntea, same as it ever was.
-That bit stems from...Worlds and Monsters, I believe it was. Maybe it was Chris Perkins' interview. Meh, either way. When talking about pantheons, one of the developers said that, and I am paraphrasing, deities that had no relevance to adventurers were not going to be included in the new edition, and asked rhetorically what kind of characters would worship farming deities.
he started it.
damn judges
Judges don't start things--they finish them.
Anyway, all that nitpickiness aside, what do people think about the cosmological changes as they apply to the alteration and potential fates of the gods? It's just my theories on things but I am curious for feedback.
First off, damn. Lots of effort, dude.
Second, I don't think you can think much into the changes and how it relates to the fates of the gods if you don't really understand the reasoning behind it. Not nitpicking, just saying that, without facts, you can't lay down a solid judgment.
The thing is, we most likely will never know what happened, except perhaps in vague future DDI articles. So the point of the thread at this moment is to attempt to fill that information in with speculation that could possibly be used in people's campaigns. It's my hope that on this board I'll find people who know the FR as well as (if not better than; I am by no means an expert) I do to discuss possibilities for that sort of thing.
Yeah, I know I'm whistling in the wind in terms of what actually happened.
The thing is, we most likely will never know what happened, except perhaps in vague future DDI articles. So the point of the thread at this moment is to attempt to fill that information in with speculation that could possibly be used in people's campaigns. It's my hope that on this board I'll find people who know the FR as well as (if not better than; I am by no means an expert) I do to discuss possibilities for that sort of thing.
As the new format and indescription of the current Realms seems to be intentional for newbies, I would hope that DDi becomes the source for those "true" gamers that want the scoop.
Will that happen? Still up in the air.
So...to really get what you are looking for, you'd really need to buy the 3e books for answers.
Ironic, no? ;)
They can continue to call and pray for missing gods and receive power?
exemple:
I can pray and follow Horus-Re dogmas, but receive power from Amaunator (since Horus is missing)?
Or i need to complete change my faith and my char?
What happen with priest of missing gods?
They can continue to call and pray for missing gods and receive power?
exemple:
I can pray and follow Horus-Re dogmas, but receive power from Amaunator (since Horus is missing)?
-That's usually what happens. Deities who have similar dogmas "pick up the slack" of Clerics who are praying to deities that don't exist in the world. They don't have to answer, though. But, because of divine alliances and all of that stuff, that usually doesn't happen.
What happen with priest of missing gods?
They've likely died out. It's been roughly 100 years since these events occured, and seeing as how Mulhorandi priests were all human, they would've died from old age barring extenuating circumstances. However, if there're any that're still around then they can cast spells even though their gods aren't around, as cleric magic in 4E is no longer directly derived from the gods. Instead, the ability to cast those spells are imparted permanently onto a recipient after a priest performs a ritual of ordination (or the gods ordain the character, themselves). So if there's still a Cleric of Horus-Re out and about, he could still cast spells. Although I'm wondering when the rules for priest magic changed in the Realms. Did they start working like that before or after the Spellplague? If so, then that changes how things may've turned out.
Anyway, all that nitpickiness aside, what do people think about the cosmological changes as they apply to the alteration and potential fates of the gods? It's just my theories on things but I am curious for feedback.
It will work for my game in a year when I run it. If Shaundakul and other gods I will want to use do not show up I will make them show up. I am tricky like that. ;)
Like I have said before, 5 years ago I would have been ticked off about these changes but time changes a person, even a gamer. I am a different person and gamer than I was 5 years ago thank god. :D
Focus? one little lousy line on a chart? Is a focus? Heck that is all I ask... actualy I really wished they did this with all the gods then forgot that they existed as they really do a lousy job with them anyway.
And no I never said the that 3rd edition was videop gamey...I mean the fact is video games have been for years trying to like table top games...and I never said 4th edtion is video gamey. But it is defintly much more of a straitjecket then 3rd edition ever was. And I am not talking about the entireity of 3rd vs 4th ed core(which is all we have) I am talking about 3rd ed core vs 4th ed core.
Yes, to some that would be a focus on what they were getting away from.
They want to draw in new players and just focus on essentials.
I am a DM and fan of the FR and have all of the god books from 2E and 3E.
I do not really need a list the gods because I have those books and my imagination and can figure out what to do with my campaign without WOTCs help. Simple as that. At least for me it is, other opinions may vary.
I figured I'd find folks interested in the same thing here. Scott
I do have the 3E books (and the 2E books, and some 1E books...owning a gaming store and all that...) which is why I posted the analysis. See, I love the FR gods. I want to have in my head a nice timeline for how it all worked out, and I wanted to get some help doing so.
Scott
Anyway my point of a earlier seemed to be lost in a attempt at humor. So I'll be plain and straight forward.
Your idea fit perfectly to the lore that has been written about the Realms...Though I would say that during the Time of Troubles it wasn't so much of grabbing power as seattling old scores...and since the gods domains were disrupted during the spellplague no god had that protection of the domain. So I would say it was a mix of power grabbing and payback.
Other than that they have been strong hints that some of the gods have disappeared to Abeir. So the question is which gods? I am thinking that the Mulhorandi pantheon got shifted to Abeir along with their lands and people...as well as Matzica and their gods...but they could be others. I could even see somer gods going willingly to escape the Spellplague...or maybe Shandukel went there because it was a new land to explore.
Other than that they have been strong hints that some of the gods have disappeared to Abeir. So the question is which gods? I am thinking that the Mulhorandi pantheon got shifted to Abeir along with their lands and people...as well as Matzica and their gods...but they could be others. I could even see somer gods going willingly to escape the Spellplague...or maybe Shandukel went there because it was a new land to explore.
-Any places that switched with landmasses on 'Abeir', it'd make sense for any deities widely worshiped in the area to migrate to 'Abeir' with their worshipers. The thing is, though, that wouldn't mean that the deities are suddenly absent from Toril.
One thing that fascinates me about the Returned Abeir bit is this:
The continent of Returned Abeir is known to the realms of Faerun. That continent has effectively suppressed worship of deities, or rather, primordials. Are the faiths of Faerun proselytizing or sending missionaries there? How do Abeirians view the afterlife (which in FR cosmology is inextricably tied to the gods?) Where did Abeirian souls go before Returned Abeir, if not to the Fugue Plane? If they were going to the Fugue Plane, why didn't the FR gods know about Abeir simply from discussing things with them? If the gods DID know how did their priests not discover it?
There are potentially HUGE plot threads to be woven by DMs regarding Returned Abeir. There are lots of faiths who would probably jump at the chance to try to "save" the people in Abeir.
Additionally--not that the new FRCS doesn't have enough stuff in it for plots--if the Maztican or Mulhorandi deities moved to Abeir, then cool things might be in store over there (or maybe they were all slaughtered by the dragons there.)
-Any places that switched with landmasses on 'Abeir', it'd make sense for any deities widely worshiped in the area to migrate to 'Abeir' with their worshipers. The thing is, though, that wouldn't mean that the deities are suddenly absent from Toril.
If we go by the lore of 1st and 2nd you would be absultutely correct...but it began w/ 3rd edition and 4th edition finished it. Each setting will have it's own cosomolgy. The shared cosomology is gone from D&D I believe...atleast everything I have read suggests this. I'll personaly will miss this..
So once a god goes to Abeir he is removed from Toril.
Speaking of Abeir...
One thing that fascinates me about the Returned Abeir bit is this:
The continent of Returned Abeir is known to the realms of Faerun. That continent has effectively suppressed worship of deities, or rather, primordials. Are the faiths of Faerun proselytizing or sending missionaries there? How do Abeirians view the afterlife (which in FR cosmology is inextricably tied to the gods?) Where did Abeirian souls go before Returned Abeir, if not to the Fugue Plane? If they were going to the Fugue Plane, why didn't the FR gods know about Abeir simply from discussing things with them? If the gods DID know how did their priests not discover it?
There are potentially HUGE plot threads to be woven by DMs regarding Returned Abeir. There are lots of faiths who would probably jump at the chance to try to "save" the people in Abeir.
Additionally--not that the new FRCS doesn't have enough stuff in it for plots--if the Maztican or Mulhorandi deities moved to Abeir, then cool things might be in store over there (or maybe they were all slaughtered by the dragons there.)
Well in 4th edition supposely not even the gods know where you go when you die.(I haven't seen anything in the FRCG to say it is different in the Realms. Also again Toril and Abeir has two different cosomologies. So would the gods know about Abeir?
I mean Shar and Selune would know about for sure maybe Chauntea...the others? Maybe not so much? So the questions becomes why would Selune and Shar keep it a secret? Was Abeir a failed attempt on their parts to create a world? Is this secret why Shar is the goddess of secrets?
Also they say that religion is suppressed on Returned Abeir...that would suggest to me atleast that relgion would exist there it is just underground...sorta like the Romans suppressed Christain faith before they converted. So what forms of religions would they have? Who is now answearing their prays now that they are removed from their older deities?
As to the afterlife:
"The souls of those who die travel through the Shadowfell to the Fugue Plane. There they await judgment. Some pass out of creation before any ruling comes, others after. Where these souls go not even the gods know. One that has strong faith and capabilities might be taken to the dominion of its deity, to serve him or her beyond life. Others remain on the Fugue Plane as aides to the god of death. A few cling to the Shadowfell or to the world, continuing on as ghosts or other insubstantial undead." (pg 65)
So, perhaps with the Abeirian elimination of deity worship/primordial worship by the Dragons (pg200) those dead who didn't follow any deities were amongst those lost. (the Faithless, IIRC). Or perhaps they were stolen away by the Baatezu. It also seems somewhat unlikely (though possible) that most of the Primordial worshippers on Abeir (those that there were, which weren't many) were lost because those beings aren't exactly the sorts to pay too much attention to their worshippers even on Toril.
That Shar knew (and that that's one of the reasons she's the goddess of secrets) makes sense; same with Selune. Maybe they just didn't mention it because they didn't think the re-alignment of the worlds could ever happen?
Abier and Toril have the same cosmology, according to the book (hence my confusion).
As to the afterlife:
"The souls of those who die travel through the Shadowfell to the Fugue Plane. There they await judgment. Some pass out of creation before any ruling comes, others after. Where these souls go not even the gods know. One that has strong faith and capabilities might be taken to the dominion of its deity, to serve him or her beyond life. Others remain on the Fugue Plane as aides to the god of death. A few cling to the Shadowfell or to the world, continuing on as ghosts or other insubstantial undead." (pg 65)
So, perhaps with the Abeirian elimination of deity worship/primordial worship by the Dragons (pg200) those dead who didn't follow any deities were amongst those lost. (the Faithless, IIRC). Or perhaps they were stolen away by the Baatezu. It also seems somewhat unlikely (though possible) that most of the Primordial worshippers on Abeir (those that there were, which weren't many) were lost because those beings aren't exactly the sorts to pay too much attention to their worshippers even on Toril.
That Shar knew (and that that's one of the reasons she's the goddess of secrets) makes sense; same with Selune. Maybe they just didn't mention it because they didn't think the re-alignment of the worlds could ever happen?
See the things is what I meant by no more shared cosomolgy is that there is still the default one of the cosmic soup. In othe words there is a FR Shadowfell and Fugue plain, as well as a Abeir shadowfell and Fuge plain, and a Eberron Shadowfell and Fugue plain. Each are separate and distinct.
Now I might be wrong here but that is the general sense of the direction of the designers.
Another possibilty occured to me about Abeir it might have been the creation of just Shar. She tried to make a world on her own when she got into that fight with Selune...but it was a flaw creation( which is the reason for the high population of abberations). And as she is a selfish being she of course wants to destroy Toril which is a better world. You could even say she killed Mystra not to gain magic or keep a god of magic from coming into being but to break Toril apart by infusing bit of Abeir on it...thus hastening it's destruction.
If we go by the lore of 1st and 2nd you would be absultutely correct...but it began w/ 3rd edition and 4th edition finished it. Each setting will have it's own cosomolgy. The shared cosomology is gone from D&D I believe...atleast everything I have read suggests this. I'll personaly will miss this..
So once a god goes to Abeir he is removed from Toril.
-Right, but 'Abeir' is another planet, that was created by Ao for the 'Primordials', so they wouldn't "complain" about the deities having Toril. So, there's a retcon to the solar system, but 'Abeir' is still in Realmspace.
-At least, this is how I've made sense of it.
Other than that they have been strong hints that some of the gods have disappeared to Abeir. So the question is which gods?
Any and all. I don't think its a "hint" in the least, as more or less, "We didn't kill you're god. Go to Abeir and find them." Same bit as with all the dead gods floating in the Astral Sea and them being able to be brought back.
This is WotC's way in saying, "Yeah, we did it, but we didn't."
Please tell me the realms are still connected to countless other worlds, through spelljamming, planes and portals.
I thought Sigil also survived into 4e so Fearun still is connected to this city of portals at least.
So of course in your game they can always be connected. Not a big deal in the end.
Oh no they didn't!
Please tell me the realms are still connected to countless other worlds, through spelljamming, planes and portals.
I thought Sigil also survived into 4e so Fearun still is connected to this city of portals at least.
-In 3e, Realmspace became it's own self contained universe. It's possible to travel to other places (It'd have to be, otherwise things in the setting's history wouldn't be possible), but they'd be the Forgotten Realms version of those placed. So it'd be Forgotten Realms-Krynn, not the actual Krynn from Dragonlance, for example.
-Confusing, I know.
In terms of cosmology, FRCS says that Toril & Abeir are on the same plane, the natural world. They share a Fugue Plane, outer planes, the Elemental Chaos, etcetera, etcetera. (p 60: "Toril and Abeir, held together in the natural world, are situated amid other planes of existance. Most theoreticians place the Astral Sea, domain of the gods and resting place of their dominions, above the world. A mixture of energy and elements exists below in the Elemental Chaos; at its bottom the Abyss roils with demonic malice. Alongside the world are its reflections; the mystical Feywild, a place of boisterous life and magic, and the gloomy Shadowfell, a dim realm of decay and apathy.")
As for Toril deities in Abeir, they say:
"In the history of Toril, numerous deities have died by various means. Others have changed allegiances or suffered from the effects of the Spellplague. A few disappeared into Abeir. Indeed, whole pantheons have left Faerun or have been destroyed."
-In 3e, Realmspace became it's own self contained universe. It's possible to travel to other places (It'd have to be, otherwise things in the setting's history wouldn't be possible), but they'd be the Forgotten Realms version of those placed. So it'd be Forgotten Realms-Krynn, not the actual Krynn from Dragonlance, for example.
-Confusing, I know.
I agree. Its unnecesary as well.
Mages such as Bigby and Mordenkainen traveled to the realms, and in my campaign they were the real deal, not ones from Alternative Dimension 635. Abeir manages to become one of the few Alt. Dim. that has caught up to the current realms.
For a DM its really important to be able to understand the picture when one zoomes out to a bigger planar horizon. And the picture for the new cosmology seems to be quite similar to the Great Tree cosmology, except the elemental chaos and the abyss have come closer to the roots of Fearuns world tree, and the godly domains in the branches have been solidfied or shed into the few that are left now. So the Tree has sank away abit and is rooted in a swampy elemental soup, with the Godly Island Domains flooting beyond the clouds in Torils upper natural world.
I am quite shocked the green fields replace the house of nature. And that Fury's Heart and the Dragon Aerie have deteriorated into the Elemental Chaos and the Celestial domains.
So with the limbo gone, where do githzerai reside in the Core and in Torils cosmology?
Given that:
(A) In the 4E paradigm, deities don't directly grant priestly power on a constant basis. A cleric is initiated/ordained once, and at that point they are capable of using their powers indefinitely. (I had a problem with this, too, being an old school type guy, but then I re-read this comic and this one too and stopped taking myself so seriously).
(B) Some races are more long-lived than others. According to the PHB (and the FRPG might have different numbers in it when it comes out), dwarves remain vigorous past 150 years; Eladrin are good for over 300; Elves live past 200; Tieflings have an unspecified lifespan;
(C) the FRCG specifies that one means of converting your campaign is to have your characters be trapped in suspended animation or in a time-spanning portal.
It therefore follows that there are still (amongst the longer-lived races) clerics and/or paladins of lost or dead gods and that there can be a handful of clerics and/or paladins of other races (given (C)) of lost or dead gods.
This leads to a good way to turn lemons into lemonade in terms of such gods. Don't like the divine changes in 4E but are looking for the path of least change storyline-wise to bring your favorite gods back? Turn it into a plotline. It's not as if having gods respawn is incompatible with Realmslore in *any* edition--just look at Xvim/Bane, Torm, and even (depending on how you look at it) Amaunator.
It's also possible (though a bit of a stretch, in my opinion) for the ordination process as described in the PHB to apply to still-extant sects of lost gods. I don't recall if, say, Myrkul cultists retained their clerical abilities in 3.5, but in any event, given the new paradigm, if you assume that (A) divine power comes from the priestly ordination rather than direct divine intervention and (B) there's always extra unclaimed divine energy from the dead gods lying around to claim, then it's possible that such cults/churches continue to exist amongst the shorter-lived races.
Then there's the "wolf in sheep's clothing" plotline, such as that with Leira in 3.5: when Cyric slew her (at least if I recall correctly it was Leira, johnkretzer probably remembers this better as we discussed it once), he continued to grant prayers to her worshippers without revealing that he was the source.
And then, of course, there's the Waukeen Effect. Not only did Lliira take over her portfolio and sub for her when she was captured, there was an adventure module (For Duty & Deity) which dealt with adventurers rescuing her from imprisonment. In the FR campaign I play in, one of our groups rescued Waukeen (though not using that module).
As the Realms divine paradigm works (and I can see nothing indicating this has changed) the existence of deities and their power level is tied (after the Time of Troubles) to the strength and number of their worshippers. One of the main tenets Ao laid down in his last appearance in the novels was that the gods had a direct responsibility to their worshippers to maintain their existance. (This one always made me wonder why some deities were still around...) This leaves the door open for plotlines where gods come back from the dead/being vanished.
My long-term D&D DM, a stickler for Realmslore if there ever was one, had the habit of:
(A) having the PCs do something plotwise relating to the world;
(B) reading the new FR book that came out from Wizards and griping that they changed something relating to (A) such as a backstory or something else which would have interfered with/impacted (A);
(C) rewriting/changing/retconning what we had done in (A) to fit with the new Realmslore that Wizards put out;
and then (D) writing another plot to allow us to recreate the effects of (A) taking into consideration the new events from (B) so that his game remained on the track that Wizards had put out.
There's no reason that (provided you WANT to use the 4E FRCS) in-game plots couldn't be used to bring back 3.5E dead/missing/subsumed deities. I can think of few new FR articles/books that would be negatively impacted by the return of a certain deity. They aren't coming out with new sourcebooks for the Realms according to current plans; all new world updates will be Dragon/DDI articles in the future, plus the occasional FR novel and RPGA adventure.
I agree. Its unnecesary as well.
-Agreed. Apparently, a lot of people at WotC didn't like the connected multiverse that TSR had set up. But, as I said, a lot of things wouldn't be possible without a connected multiverse (multi-planar deities present in different settings, specific spells being present in multiple settings, etc.), so they had to finagle some kind of way to make Realmspace all by itself, all while keeping all of the multiplanar stuff.
I wonder however if Elder Evils fits in with the FR?
Spelljamming got very nicely incorporated into FR. The spelljamming fleet of both gnomes and elves where kept secret to the people but they have played roles in some magical progress and in the defence of Torils realmsspace.
Some of the Elder Evils fit in seamlessly such as Pandorym and Kyuss.
What happened to the Mulhorandi Pantheon...
AFAIK nothing. As in they could still exist, just as Kara-Tur still exists despite getting no mention in the FRCG.
Also one question: I believe its been said that a source (either the FRCG or Rich Baker in his thread) has said some of the gods who go unmentioned simply left Toril to go to other worlds to either create new life or to become gods of other worlds. Did someone actually say this? If so do I understand what was said correctly?
The interconnectivity was a nice business model aswell. Any DM who wanted to incorporate some Krynn material into the Torils realmspace could just buy the material and do so.
-Agreed. But, that's so 2e...
Some of the Elder Evils fit in seamlessly such as Pandorym and Kyuss.
-Pandorym was created in the Forgotten Realms, and then exported elsewhere. Though, remember, the other Pandorym's out there are Pandorym-A, Pandorym-B, and so on.
Also one question: I believe its been said that a source (either the FRCG or Rich Baker in his thread) has said some of the gods who go unmentioned simply left Toril to go to other worlds to either create new life or to become gods of other worlds. Did someone actually say this? If so do I understand what was said correctly?
-The book said that, I believe. Deities who are not mentioned may have left to go to 'Abeir'.
Spelljamming was cool to me when I was 16 or so, now I detest it and how TSR tried to fit it into FR. Hopefully it is never touched on again.
2) Well not to dash your hopes but read page 41, under The creation. It seems in part WotC are touching upon Spelljammer. And if it last long enough(4th edtion) that is Spelljammer and Planescape will produce some strange hybrid setting that is meaningless.
Then there's the "wolf in sheep's clothing" plotline, such as that with Leira in 3.5: when Cyric slew her (at least if I recall correctly it was Leira, johnkretzer probably remembers this better as we discussed it once), he continued to grant prayers to her worshippers without revealing that he was the source.
That is correct. Though it started off in 2nd edition.
In 3rd edition with the servant of the falling feat you could be a cleric of a fallen god...though I don't think they went into where or who the spells came from.
Though in 4th edition once you are invested you don't need the god anymore. (Though I guess it can be concealed from you who is investing in you.) So if I am a priest and I get invested by say Sune and the next day Cyric uses his cheesy plot powers to escape and kill her I would still gain spells and probably will never know it happened. And in the end it wouldn't matter much.
Also the number of worshippers you have I don't think matters to the gods anymore. It is just a feeling that they want you to go kill the god...not go and and conduct a campaign to crush the god's power centers, discredit his religion, or converting or killing his followerrs etc. They made it alot simpler.
If WOTC does work in Spelljammer then oh well. I will ignore it unless they can make me change my mind about it which is always possible. If spelljamming becomes a thing where you can use the ships in the Planes than that may be something I can get into.
Something in a RPG supplement cannot dash my hopes. I do not get too worried if WOTC does something I do not like. :D
(A) In the 4E paradigm, deities don't directly grant priestly power on a constant basis. A cleric is initiated/ordained once, and at that point they are capable of using their powers indefinitely. (I had a problem with this, too, being an old school type guy, but then I re-read this comic and this one too and stopped taking myself so seriously).
This might be slightly off topic but I still can't get over my problems with this.
If you take the old way to the ridiculous extreme as the comics sure it is stupid...but that was done for humor...it is like they took it seriously.
I mean look at this way I train to be a cleric of say Bob the god of puppies and slayer of kittens. I become ordained and get invested...now a couple of yearss later I fall in love with a kitten and a puppy bites me...in my anger I kill the puppy with a spell. Then using my powers and such I creat Tony the god of kittens and slayer of puppies. Shouldn't Bob have the power to de-invest me? I just find it removes depth from the game not to have divine character atleast some what beholden to a higher power...then again in 4th edition it seems that the gods are just high level monsters and quest givers...
Also it is funny the reason why there is Exarchs, gods, and greater god is so you can worship a god at each stage of your power level.
Sorry again if this is off topic. If you would like to respond do so via PM.
Also it is funny the reason why there is Exarchs, gods, and greater god is so you can worship a god at each stage of your power level.
There weren't different levels of gods beforehand?
Anyway I liked many things years ago that I do not care for now. I grew out of certain things. I changed. Life happened to me. That is all I was saying.
If WOTC does work in Spelljammer then oh well. I will ignore it unless they can make me change my mind about it which is always possible. If spelljamming becomes a thing where you can use the ships in the Planes than that may be something I can get into.
Something in a RPG supplement cannot dash my hopes. I do not get too worried if WOTC does something I do not like. :D
Actualy I didn't call you any names or immature(I would point it out but it seems you reported the post and they edited it). You just always seem to be down on everything old to the point where you have to mention it in conversation that "Well I grew out of it". Thus you are infering, maybe it is intentional maybe it is not, that it is immature. While we can all be unconstructive in our posts for various reason I can't think of a single one made by you where you offered real advice other just "do it yourself". I might be wrong it it might just be me that you respond this way to.
I on the other hand have atleast attempted to give constructive advice to people in regards to how things can work and such.
As to a interconnect universe...I like the idea alot. Liking it or disliking it has nothing to do with maturity or growing out of it. The concept is great though as it does open up certain doors that are just closed with out it...it was the only thing I hated about Eberron, though that was fixable.
The reason why WotC got rid of it was nothing to do with the fans not wanting it either. If they didn't they couldn't pull off the Spellplague's disruption of the planes. Which is why they started to move away from it at the end of 3rd so fans don't ask what happened to Wee Jas(who according to lore used to hang out with Mystra alot but didn't like Midnight too much)...etc.
Anyway this is the last response I'll make to your posts as I really don't think this gets either us anywhere.
There weren't different levels of gods beforehand?
Sure there was but it didn't say most of the time at a certain level you go looking for a more powerful deity...
Page 72 under Priests and Laay Worshippers. While it isn't a rule I just find it silly that as you increase in power you will go loking for a more powerful god.
Sorry but a priest should be a little more devoted then that.
Yeah, it isn't a rule. It's just a suggestion, as someone worshipping a god who's weaker than they are is pretty silly. It was silly in 3E if your character was level 50+ worshipping a quasipower, and it's still silly. They're just pointing it out and suggesting a course of action if it bothers you.
That is why giving gods stats in the 1st place is silly...if I was talking about 3rd or 2nd, but I am not. Also since there is no stats for gods yet, oh wait no they stated one...sigh well the sillieness just continues I guess
Also every game has silly little rules why do people take it so personaly when pointed out?
That being said, the death of deities at the hands of the PCs is hardly something that anyone's *promoting* in the 4E paradigm, so much as they're leaving the *possibility* open. In a game where, at Epic Levels, one of the possible destinies is "Demigod", it's hardly unimaginable that characters would, at one time or another, find themselves fighting with another demigod/exarch. It's also unlikely in the extreme that killing that Exarch would permanently kill them without the specific intercession of the DM in a plotline designed to do so. I view them a lot like avatars, and in my time in my current campaign I've had characters fight (and slay) a couple've those in the course of plotlines.
I'll put my opinion on this like so:
(A) I don't believe that Wizards expects people to willy-nilly kill deities like they are any other monster, but that such an event would be an epic, campaign-ending quest; and
(B) Any DM who ran it as anything *other* than that would, in my opinion, be someone whose opinion I could care less about--and who probably shouldn't BE a DM; and
(C) I hazard a guess that Wizards would agree with me on (B).
Amusing story: When I first played D&D--I must've been 10 years old, it was fourth or fifth grade--we had a copy of the old school Deities and Demigods. Our super-duper characters were gonna wander around and kill the evil gods, so we went through the Deities and Demigods book and made a "Kill List", where we'd mark off which gods we were planning to kill and in what order. I think I still own that old, tattered book somewhere. Killing gods got old after a while, but I remember having a blast doing it.
In terms of scaling up your worship, I am of mixed feelings about that. Personally, I would think that one of the plotlines I would have running at epic levels for a character who was going up in level would be to increase the grandiosity, scope, and awareness of their deity's worship--and the god, in and of itself, would be levelled up in the hierarchy by the character's actions to keep pace with the levelling. The idea that a character would worship an Exarch from 1-10, a God from 11-20 and a Greater God from 21-30 is pretty silly, though...I mean, Gods are still tougher than level 30 people!
That is why giving gods stats in the 1st place is silly...if I was talking about 3rd or 2nd, but I am not. Also since there is no stats for gods yet, oh wait no they stated one...sigh well the sillieness just continues I guess
Also every game has silly little rules why do people take it so personaly when pointed out?
Who's taking it personally? I think it's stupid in all editions. I'm just glad they're not planning on statting every single god, although I still don't care for the fact that they're going to stat a few.
Agreed, on all points. I'd rather not see actuals stats of deities (stats of their avatars was a nice midpoint, in the 2e books), and the difference between a Level 30 character and a deity (even a weak demideity) should be as apparent as the difference between a Level 1 character and a Level 30 character.
This isn't in keeping with the idea of Epic-level 4E, where PCs can become demigods at the end of a campaign. Whether you agree with that goal or not in your PERSONAL campaign is up to you; and something I hoped to avoid being discussed in this thread.
The vast, vast majority of D&D games last 6-12 months, tops, with a MAXIMUM of about 60 4-hour sessions and a general average of about 30 4-hour sessions (because most games meet twice a month). Presuming 3 encounters per session, and a levelling ratio of one level per 9 encounters, you're looking at most games topping out at about 20th level (60 sessions*3 encounters=180 encounters/9 per level=20th level). The dedicated posters on this board and other boards have probably got longer campaigns under their belts (I know I have), but we're a minority and will continue to be so.
The idea that at the end of a campaign that lasts longer than that (and for an average bi-monthly campaign, in order to hit 30th level, it would take you roughly 3 years (or 90 sessions) to gain 30th level, completing 360 hours of play. If, at the end of that time, a party of 30th level adventurers manage to whack an Exarch as part of a plotline and become a demigod...well, I for one have little problem with that; that's a pretty epic amount of time to be playing and dedicating to the game, and there should be a pretty cool reward at the end of it. And it's just an Exarch...and for gods in the Realms over the past 25 years of the Realms' existance, "death" is more often than not just a temporary time-out.
The idea that PCs can't do something like slay Moander, or have a hand in the Bhaal/Myrkul/Bane death/ascension, or anything of that nature is contrary to the established history of the Realms; stating that you personally don't like those episodes in the history of the Realms is a personal opinion and doesn't apply to rational criticism of the 4E Realms, anyway. There's precedent throughout the history of the Realms; the game provides it as an OPTION, they enable that option, some people like it, it's appropriately presented as an EPIC option; and it's poor grounds on which to criticize 4E FR given the history of the FR as a whole.
Now back to our regular programming...any more ideas as to what happened to the other gods?
-This isn't in keeping with the idea of Epic-level 4E, where PCs can become demigods at the end of a campaign. Whether you agree with that goal or not in your PERSONAL campaign is up to you; and something I hoped to avoid being discussed in this thread.
-Emphasis mine, case in point why I said what I said, regardless of design goals.
Now back to our regular programming...any more ideas as to what happened to the other gods?
They're in Abeir. And someday they're gonna pop back into Faerun like all those heroes did at the end of Secret Invasion #1. Only they won't be Skrulls.
-Now back to our regular programming...any more ideas as to what happened to the other gods?
Any thoughts on Yondalla(sp?) the head huncho of the halfling pantheon? My is she got absorbed by Chauntea which is why Chauntea inherited all those halflings( I feel so sorry for her :D ).
Off topic: It should be note Richard Baker has said he it is completely possible for a group of 30 level PCs to kill Cyric in a module in the future...My thinking is that is how they plan to create the transition between 4th and 5th when it comes out. It might even be a RPGA event module...
But it does speak to the fact that it isn't just exarchs that are PCs killable.
Personaly I would probably do what most of would to and trat any and all stats as their avartars stats( though in 4th edition earchs does = choosen which is why Fzoul and Obould got it.)
Also with there suggeastion of upgrading the deity choice as you go up the teirs they suggest you drop that exarch at 11th level...going by Fzoul stats that is pretty far away from the time you get more powerful then he does.
Back on topic:
I'll ask again would it go against the point of this thread to discuss how deities that have died or was just left out survived and how they did so?
Off topic: It should be note Richard Baker has said he it is completely possible for a group of 30 level PCs to kill Cyric in a module in the future...My thinking is that is how they plan to create the transition between 4th and 5th when it comes out. It might even be a RPGA event module...
But it does speak to the fact that it isn't just exarchs that are PCs killable.
He also described it as a once-in-a-campaign event. That one would need to get a unique relic, perform a ritual, the stars would have to align properly, etc, in order to accomplish such a goal. PC's wouldn't simply be able to show up at their doorsteps and start gutting gods in alphabetical order. Although even then, I still don't care for that. At least that isn't as bad as I thought it might be when I first heard about being able to kill gods. Still, gotta see the implementation before one can say one way or the other.
He also described it as a once-in-a-campaign event. That one would need to get a unique relic, perform a ritual, the stars would have to align properly, etc, in order to accomplish such a goal. PC's wouldn't simply be able to show up at their doorsteps and start gutting gods in alphabetical order. Although even then, I still don't care for that. At least that isn't as bad as I thought it might be when I first heard about being able to kill gods. Still, gotta see the implementation before one can say one way or the other.
That is true...though just voicing my concerns is all that I believe you share as well.
Well, we'll see how things go. I'll reserve my Quality *****ing if/when Greater God stats are published and they turn out to be pushovers. :P If at the end of the day it turns out to really bug me, then I'll declare those game stats to be their Avatars and be done with it.
Richard Baker confirmed that Chauntea and Yondalla merged in an ask-the-authors post he made on here.
Re: Cyric
Any objections I have to anyone killing gods in the FR are removed for Cyric. Somebody shoulda shivved that mo-fo a LONG time ago. Hated him in any incarnation of the Realms.
Re: Exarch vs. Chosen
4E Exarchs are not, necessarily, Chosen; some are simply demigods. However, there are no Chosen in the 4E Realms (at the current moment) who are NOT Exarchs who were formerly Chosen.
Re: How Deities Died
It doesn't go against the theme of the thread to discuss how deities died so long as it isn't "the way they killed Bob was stupid" and is more along the lines of "How did they kill/would they kill Bob?" What would be more interesting to me personally (and the reason I started this thread to begin with) would be theories on how and why gods that we don't know the fate of MIGHT have died (as opposed to being subsumed or travelling to Abeir).
Re: GreenKnight and returning gods not being skrulls
They'll be Greater Dopplegangers.
Re: GreenKnight and returning gods not being skrulls
They'll be Greater Dopplegangers.
Re: How Deities Died
It doesn't go against the theme of the thread to discuss how deities died so long as it isn't "the way they killed Bob was stupid" and is more along the lines of "How did they kill/would they kill Bob?" What would be more interesting to me personally (and the reason I started this thread to begin with) would be theories on how and why gods that we don't know the fate of MIGHT have died (as opposed to being subsumed or travelling to Abeir).
Actualy I was more think how to alter things so deities that you want around that aren't can be around that fit in with what happened. It is related but slightly off topic. Whicxh is why I am asking.
An example of this would Elistrea survives by Correllen not getting stuck in traffic and showing up and saving her...and then when the Spell Plague hits she became his exarch of redemption...(that was quick and dirty).
Re: Exarch vs. Chosen
4E Exarchs are not, necessarily, Chosen; some are simply demigods. However, there are no Chosen in the 4E Realms (at the current moment) who are NOT Exarchs who were formerly Chosen.
-Note that plenty probably remain, albeit unmentioned. Mystra's Chosen, maybe not, because of all of the "controversy" there, but other deities' Chosen.
Mask is forgotten but not lost. He has a temple of some sort in Shadowfell defended by his Chosen. He is no longer worshipped as a god, but he's still around.
No I think he is taking a dirt nap(probably Shar)...and Cale will replace him...hey it is sneaky a greater god pretending to be a Exarch...because if there isn't a greater god on the premise it goes bye bye. Anyway that is my theory though I don't have extensive knowledge of the books.
because if there isn't a greater god on the premise it goes bye bye
Only for a dominion in the Astral Sea. Mask's domain is in the Shadowfell, so it may not share the same restrictions about having to be maintained by a Greater God.
Can anyone give a synopsis of how Elistraee dies in the books? I've not read that series.
We've been told on the ask-the-authors thread that we will find out what happened to Mask at the end of the latest series that features him (but it's another series I haven't read). What's going on in that series?
Can anyone give a synopsis of how Elistraee dies in the books? I've not read that series.
-The abridged summary:
Show
-Eilistraee inhabits the body of Qilue Veladorn, her Chosen, and is killed. More accurately, she allows herself to be killed, so that a powerful ritual can be completed, and Drow who are Miyeritari descent can become Dark Elves again.
Only for a dominion in the Astral Sea. Mask's domain is in the Shadowfell, so it may not share the same restrictions about having to be maintained by a Greater God.
That is true though I thought the Spell plague disrupted all the planes. So it wouldn't have been safe in Shadowfell because there was no Shadowfell till after the Spell plague...though I might be wrong in this.
A gloomy echo of Toril, the Shadowfell is at once
ancient and new. The dark goddess Shar reshaped
what was then known as the Plane of Shadow during
the years of chaos following the Spellplague. In her
craft, she folded in the energy of death that didn’t
make the transition to the Elemental Chaos. She
renamed her creation the Shadowfell, which became
its common name among mortals, though some still
refer to it simply as “Shadow.”
-They really should just do all or none. No use half-assing it.
Exactly...but they have gotten so good at half-assing things that its becoem second nature....and they always use a variant on the same excuse.. "No mortal being truly understand the extant of 's power". Well, last time I checked, DMs weren't "mortal beings" in the setting.. so I agree, if they are going to stat one, then they should stat them all, a process that shouldnt actually take too long since a lot of them would have similar "stats" and it would mostly be their churches dogma and ect that would be different.
The Shadowfell is just a new name for the Plane of Shadow, reshaped by Shar after the Spellplague into the Shadowfell:
Thank you for the info...though it shoiuld be noted she made it after the spellplague.
We are just going to have to wait and see I guess.
1) Helms dies. Most of the Flaming Fist merc being soldiers turn to Tempus.
2)Spell Plague hits...Eldath is lost among the Chaose and Tempus comes to her aid as some evil god approaches( I haven't decided on one yet).
3) Eldath is shocked to be saved by Tempus...Tempus explains why he strikes down any of his worshippers who attacks her followrs...that being war without peace is meaningless. And offers her to be one of his exarch(of Peace). Also pointing out by his side she might be able to avoid warfare and conflict. She agrees.
4)Tempus gives her some of his domain where none may attack. There is some grumbling but who is going to argue with Tempus? I mean really?
5)Back at Baldur's Gate a small sect of Eldathians are among the first refugees that comes to Baldurs gate. The Flaming Fist(though a dream...or whatever) with orders from Tempus were going to let the Eldathians in but refuse entery to the rest. Eldath had her followers stand between the army and the refugees. This stalemate ends with Tempus backing down(though he may have planned it from the start). The sect of Eldathians become rulers of Baldur's Gate and the Flsming Fist backing them up allows these idealist to survive in this world. And of course Baldur's Gate become the light in the dark for a bunch of Refugees.
6)Eldathians from Baldur's Gate now travel out into the world bringing a neutral mediation to various conclicts to in the Realms often traveling with the protction of a adventuring band or warrior in service to Tempus for protection.
7)Baldur's gate is still pretty much as described as the Flamning Fist and Eldathians aren't perfect...and the Eldathians try to stay neutral in conflicts so it is like the mayor(or govornor as described in the book).
Anyway that is just one of my small changes to the new Realms to make it fit betteer in my mind.
-I always operated under the assumptions that the Feywild was simply the Plane of Faerie, and that the Shadowfell was simply the Plane of Shadows. MT was postulating about certain things, and mentioned the Feywild being the Plane of Faerie and the Positive Elemental Plane rolled into one, and the Shadowfell being the Plane of Shadows and the Negative Energy Plane rolled into one. Belorin commented that this was indeed how it was, but your insecurity on the issue is making me second guess him, now, too. Though, the quote that you provided, I can see the "she folded in the energy of death that didn’t make the transition to the Elemental Chaos" as being the Negative Energy Plane.
There is definite mention of the "negative" being incorporated into the Shadowfell. As for "positive" and the Feywild, haven't seen or heard that yet. Though, MT has a solid foundation for it. It only makes sense.
Yet, still nothing there.
I don't know about the Eldathians being in charge of the Flaming Fists...well perhaps not 100 years later. In the beginning it makes sense (the Eldathians plus the Gondians coming up with ways to have the burgeoning city survive) but over time I imagine their influence would wane and we'd have a more balanced large city (with more plot elements).
There is definite mention of the "negative" being incorporated into the Shadowfell. As for "positive" and the Feywild, haven't seen or heard that yet. Though, MT has a solid foundation for it. It only makes sense.
Yet, still nothing there.
-Well, it had to have gone somewhere, didn't it? It and the Plane of Faerie merging together makes just about as much sense as the Plane of Shadows and the Negative Energy Plane merging together.
-Well, it had to have gone somewhere, didn't it? It and the Plane of Faerie merging together makes just about as much sense as the Plane of Shadows and the Negative Energy Plane merging together.
Was I arguing?
I like this one, once you bend your head around the idea that Tempus saves Eldath. While originally she served "Silvanus alongside Mielikki" Silvanus saving her is a little bit...well, boring.
I don't know about the Eldathians being in charge of the Flaming Fists...well perhaps not 100 years later. In the beginning it makes sense (the Eldathians plus the Gondians coming up with ways to have the burgeoning city survive) but over time I imagine their influence would wane and we'd have a more balanced large city (with more plot elements).
It isn't that the Eldathians are in charge really it is that they run things that different groups don't trust each other to run and also they are trusted to mediate honestly....also this actualy inspired more of a story element(which I can get into with you during private conversation)...it would be more of a partnership. Like I say it is a loose outline.
Also the power groups there still exist and such...consider the Eldathains as just a more diplomatic arm of the Flaming Fist in running the city.
Was I arguing?
-I didn't say you a arguing. I was simply stating an observation.
-I didn't say you a arguing. I was simply stating an observation.
Shadowfell is shadow and negative combined.
Feywild? Got no clue. But I have to side with Marcus, simply due to the fact that its such a "mystical" place. I mean, when everyone stands in awe and cries at the Great Tree, what would the Feywild do to you?
That is good...crap I am off topic again...damn you GK....
Remember that.
I mean, when everyone stands in awe and cries at the Great Tree, what would the Feywild do to you?
-Come again? I didn't quite understand that.
@ johnkretzer concerning Eldath and Tempus: that pair doesn't personally work for me but if it does for you, then more power to you.
I'm still caught between her being an exarch for Chauntea, Selune and Sune. I am leaning heavily towards marius4's suggestion of Selune.
Eldath as Exarch of Chauntea or Selune would be good (Although when it comes to Selune, I'd rather give her Finder Wyvernspur and Shaundakul back). I also like the idea of making her Exarch of Ilmater.
Argh, I still haven't read the FRCG (must try to steal it from my husband tonight); I thought for some reason that Ilmater was an exarch himself. Ilmater really is another excellent idea.
You're not making this easy on me! :P
I think he's referring to the comparative amount of awe inspired by an entire plane like the Feywild vs a single Great Tree.
The "Great Tree" that I believe is being discussed is an entire system of planes.
You're not making this easy on me! :P
Then I've accomplished what I've set out to do.
- The Thorny Knight
The "Great Tree" that I believe is being discussed is an entire system of planes.
Ah sorry; I was thinking it was that elvish tree in Baldur's Gate II. As you might guess, I'm not up on a lot of what's been going on in the Realms. ;)
@ GreenKnight: I hate you...
;)
@ GreenKnight: I hate you...
@ johnkretzer concerning Eldath and Tempus: that pair doesn't personally work for me but if it does for you, then more power to you.
I went with what was Tempus veiw on her...also the fact that she wouldn't figure big in any of the other gods list of deities that needed to be saved...Also Tempus always had the wisdom it seems to know that peace is needed.
It also allowed me to fix my problems with Baldur's Gate.
But as you said whatever works for you, then more power to you. I just figured I'll share the idea because people might get other ideas from it. Which is what the boards are best for.
I think he's referring to the comparative amount of awe inspired by an entire plane like the Feywild vs a single Great Tree. The impact would be so much greater.
-I'm still not understanding...The awe inspired by the Feywild is greater than the Forgotten Realms cosmology? But, what does this have to do with the possibility of the Plane of Faerie, and the Positive Energy Plane merging?
Ah sorry; I was thinking it was that elvish tree in Baldur's Gate II. As you might guess, I'm not up on a lot of what's been going on in the Realms. ;)
No need to be sorry, I was just saying.
Eilistraee is dead!?!?!?!
NOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Oh, man. This sucks for my good drow-based campaigns...
Is she really dead, or was it kinda just implied?
Agh!!!
Eilistraee is dead!?!?!?!
NOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Oh, man. This sucks for my good drow-based campaigns...
Is she really dead, or was it kinda just implied?
well in your game she doesn't have to die. She is not dead in...three of the FR games I directly know about.
Actually, could someone explain the Great Tree cosmology - or point me to a thread that references it? I was only aware of the Great Wheel and had wrongly assumed it to apply to all settings/campaigns.
It did, until 3E.
There's some information about the Great Tree in the 3E FRCS and Player's Guide. You might be able to find some information on the internet, too.
well in your game she doesn't have to die. She is not dead in...three of the FR games I directly know about.
She's not dead in my Realms either.
Actually, could someone explain the Great Tree cosmology - or point me to a thread that references it? I was only aware of the Great Wheel and had wrongly assumed it to apply to all settings/campaigns.
-Information on it is in the Player's Guide to Faerûn. Any more than that, and you'll have to start a new thread on it. Note, that it's woefully incomplete, however.
She's not dead in my Realms either.
Ok so that is four.
-Come again? I didn't quite understand that.
Thanks for those that tried to clear this up, but just another mistake of me typing too fast and thinking too slow again.
I meant the Grandfather Tree.
If a bunch of humans can come to awe and tears over it, with just its bit of magic, imagine an entire plane.
Sorry for the confusion. :surrender
-Oh, yes, yes. The Grandfather Tree. Lovely tree, that.
You're such a salesman. Love it. ;)
Grandfather Tree, huh? I'll remember it the next time I need some firewood...
But...but...
As for Angharradh, I don't know why she would bother with Corellon. In Ascendancy of the Last he was explicitly described as being 'androgynous.' She should turn to someone more manly, like Gruumsh or Tempus.
-Corellon Larethian has always been androgynous, when Araushnee was his consort, when Sehanine Moonbow was his consort...
As for Angharradh, I don't know why she would bother with Corellon. In Ascendancy of the Last he was explicitly described as being 'androgynous.' She should turn to someone more manly, like Gruumsh or Tempus.
um....ok gruumsh I just don't see.
Anyway just because something looks androgynous doesn't it is.
You know, reviewing the feats, I wonder how they managed to justify keeping Angharradh around when she's made up of three deities that were subsumed by other gods/primordials or were simply their aspects (Aerdrie->Akadi, Hanali->Sune, and Sehanine Moonbow->Selune).
I can't get an answer from any of the designers on who the 4th edition Angharradh really is. No where does it say in the campaign book that Sehanine was Selune - only Rich said that on the forums but there is no evidence to back that up.
If 2 of the goddesses were revealed as "imposters", how is Angharradh around and why? I am hoping Sehanine actually became Angharradh without the moon aspect which was absorbded by Selune. It would make ALOT more sense than saying Sehanine was Selune the whole time.
so "Who is Angharradh?"
I've come up with answers to all my questions on my own, using things people (esp johnkretzer) pointed out on this board, in terms of the gods. I hope you folks'll check out the link in my sig to my campaign concept thread; it contains explanations and changes for most of the gods based on my understanding of Realmslore.
Criticism of what I did, and what could be done differently, is appreciated!Just trying to be humorous and obviously failing...
Sorry seen enough WoW orc fanboys it is hard to tell these days.
I've always been a D&D orc fanboy since about '83 when I got my first advanced set and started making half-orc characters. I had been stuck with basic and expert before then... I've never played World of Warcraft...
Then I will tip my hat in respect to a orc fanboy before it became cool. ;)
-Ugh, I hate when that happens...I liked Pokemon before it was cool! I remember, I got that game the day after it came out!
If they make Pikachu an Exarch, I swear I'll quit this game. ;)
Jigglypuff is cuter, though.
Dead Gods (CONFIRMED):
[*]Deep Duerra--Dead: Died fighting the Dwarven gods (GHR)
[*]Gorm Gulthyn--Dead: Died eliminating the Duergar gods (GHR)
[*]Haela Brightaxe--Dead: Died eliminating the Duergar gods (GHR)
[*]Laduguer--Dead: Died in a fight with the Dwarven gods (GHR)
GHR is what source??
Dwarfhome (Moradin): Same. All of the gods here survived with the exceptions of Haela Brightaxe (dead) and Gorm Gulthyn (dead) who died in a war that also apparently slew Deep Duerra and Laduguer) pre-Spellplague; and Sharindlar, who we have no explanation for the disappearance of.
I don't know if this has been stated before, but I'm inclined to believe Sharindlar was always an aspect of Selune; so, probably she was subsumed, or exists nowadays simply as an exarch.
I don't know if this has been stated before, but I'm inclined to believe Sharindlar was always an aspect of Selune; so, probably she was subsumed, or exists nowadays simply as an exarch.
-Deities that aren't mentioned, we were told, that there's a reason why they're not around (be it death, leaving, etc...).
-Deities that aren't mentioned, we were told, that there's a reason why they're not around (be it death, leaving, etc...).
Yeah they fail to involve logic in the Realms. EB:"How do Gods become Gods?"
LK: "They just do"
COOL GAME GUYS HAVE FUN WITH THAT
-Deities that aren't mentioned, we were told, that there's a reason why they're not around (be it death, leaving, etc...).
Well, I see, and it's pretty clear that there's a plethora of reasons why they didn't get a mention. However, it won't bring any light into the darkened 4th edition setting if all we're able to do is sit around waiting the next supplement covering this specific matter. I think these boards need to realize they’re able to dictate what is canon in FR from now on. It’s just a matter of agreements and of good sense, which comes with knowledge –and knowledge about the Realms is something which you guys seriously have in tons.
However, it won't bring any light into the darkened 4th edition setting if all we're able to do is sit around waiting the next supplement covering this specific matter.
-There aren't going to be any supplements. The current design mantra is "two and we're done". The FRCG and the FRPG are the only books that the Forgotten Realms will have. The rest of the information that will be "released" is going to be via novels and online DRAGON/DUNGEON/DDI articles.
I think these boards need to realize they’re able to dictate what is canon in FR from now on. It’s just a matter of agreements and of good sense, which comes with knowledge –and knowledge about the Realms is something which you guys seriously have in tons.
-Well, not exactly. What's canon in someone's campaign, yes, is up to the individual, and that changes from game to game, and depends on the players/DMs. What's canon in the official, WotC supported Forgotten Realms setting, though, that's up to WotC and WotC alone.
-Well, not exactly. What's canon in someone's campaign, yes, is up to the individual, and that changes from game to game, and depends on the players/DMs. What's canon in the official, WotC supported Forgotten Realms setting, though, that's up to WotC and WotC alone.
The whole setting could head towards different direction once DMs/players realized they could impact positively building the history of the realms using this boards and that Living Forgotten Realms RPGA thing --and this is beyond systems [3.5ed or the 4th one] discussion. The huge step to the next century in Realms history dug some "holes" in the realms knowledge and the players/DMs of this place could team up together to find out what happened. The fact that WotC isn't planning to drive us crazy with thousands of supplements to read, covering obscure points, is another reason why it's all about us to write the history from now on.
Okay, it may sound utopic, but I can assure you, I'm not a child who found the realms out yesterday, or who doesn't know how behaves WotC or our Brazilian publisher. And I'm not saying this as if I knew more than anyone --the fact is I know so little that I'm always here trying to gather all info you people post. LK, I respect your opinion, but my point remains unchanged and will remain --so, no need to go down the pages discussing this.
;)
By the way, any chance to get a thread discussing the possibility of an unknown extant branch of the Irithyl dinasty? Would it sound interesting?
Yes, it is interesting.
I agree with you that fan-created lore is great, and many of us are creating exactly that. However, we cannot expect such lore to be "official", insofar as that's even important (I don't consider it too important, but there it is).
The whole setting could head towards different direction once DMs/players realized they could impact positively building the history of the realms using this boards and that Living Forgotten Realms RPGA thing --and this is beyond systems [3.5ed or the 4th one] discussion. The huge step to the next century in Realms history dug some "holes" in the realms knowledge and the players/DMs of this place could team up together to find out what happened. The fact that WotC isn't planning to drive us crazy with thousands of supplements to read, covering obscure points, is another reason why it's all about us to write the history from now on.
Okay, it may sound utopic, but I can assure you, I'm not a child who found the realms out yesterday, or who doesn't know how behaves WotC or our Brazilian publisher. And I'm not saying this as if I knew more than anyone --the fact is I know so little that I'm always here trying to gather all info you people post. LK, I respect your opinion, but my point remains unchanged and will remain --so, no need to go down the pages discussing this.
-All true. And, you're right- the point does remain the same: Canon is what people make of it, in their games. My version is probably different from your version, which is different from his version, which is different from her version, which is different from WotC's version. WotC's version is the official version, however.
By the way, any chance to get a thread discussing the possibility of an unknown extant branch of the Irithyl dinasty? Would it sound interesting?
-Go ahead and start one, then.