Bane (E) - Tyrants, Fear, Hatred, Authority?, Expansionism?
Cyric (CE) - Strife, Murder, Lies, Madness?
Tymora (G) - Luck, adventurers
Torm (LG) - Justice?, Loyalty, Duty
Tempus (U) - War, Battle, Courage, Strength
Oghma (U) - Knowledge, Inspiration
Moradin (G) - Creation, Craftsmen, the Forge
Corellon (G) - Magic, Music, the Arts, the Feywild
Sune (G) - Love, Beauty
Ilmater (LG) - Suffering, Martyrdom, Perseverance, Healers
Shar (E) - Night, Loss
Selune (G) - the Moon, Stars, Dreams, Prophecy
Tiamat (E) - Greed, Vengeance
Bahamut (LG) - Honor, Valor, Protection
Asmodeus (E) - Betrayal, Corruption, Devils, The Nine Hells
Silvanus (U) - The Wilderness
Kelemvor (U) - Death and the Dead
Mielliki (G) - Forests, Animals, Autumn
Talos (CE) - Destruction, Storms, Rebellion
Umberlee (E) - Oceans and the Seas possibly a demigod of Talos
Malar (E) - Bloodlust and Hunting
Llolth (CE) - Darkness, Spiders, the Drow
Loviatar (E) - Pain, Torture possibly a demigod of Bane
Amaunator (U) - the Sun, Light, Law
Gond (U) - Invention, Technology
Gruumsh (CE) - Savagery and Slaughter
Talona (E) - Poison and Disease
Beshaba (E) - Misfortune and Ill-luck
Chauntea (G) - Toril, Agriculture
Mask (E?) - Shadows, Thievery, Intrigue?
Waukeen (U) - Wealth and Trade
Shaundakul (U) - Wind, Travel, Exploration possibly a demigod or exarch
Set (E) - Serpents, Deserts
-Who needs a preview article in the summer? The campaign is being released in the summer!
Well, I guess that the Wizards Cashier would need it, would he not?
I want 500 gods per continent
Well, the FR these days consist of only one continent and 200 deities will do for them.
I want 500 gods per continent
There's over 10,000 in Wa!
Well, the FR these days consist of only one continent and 200 deities will do for them.
so you don't want further development, just old stuff rewritten
There's over 10,000 in Wa!
I don't play there, but isn't the Path the only religion, plus a few spirit cults, but that's a good number
instead of killing off deities, there should be a realistic line in the CS that says that there are thousands of beliefs in Faerun, and this is only a glimpse
I don't play there, but isn't the Path the only religion, plus a few spirit cults, but that's a good number
There's The Path and The Way, and I was referring to The Temple of 10,000 Gods.
And yes, there are many cults (Black Leopard etc).
so you don't want further development, just old stuff rewritten
The Realms so far have about 150 deities ;) That should be enough of a clue for today!
instead of killing off deities, there should be a realistic line in the CS that says that there are thousands of beliefs in Faerun, and this is only a glimpse
That might have been a better idea.
Is that the finalised list?
No, it's speculation, as far as I can tell.
so you don't want further development, just old stuff rewritten
-Given that it's only 100 years, yes, there shouldn't be much 'further development', concerning the divine. How much difference is there in the Catholic Church now, as opposed to 100 years ago? Then, replace Catholic Church, with, say, Mielikki, or someone else.
instead of killing off deities, there should be a realistic line in the CS that says that there are thousands of beliefs in Faerun, and this is only a glimpse
-Indeed. That would have made everyone happy.
Is that the finalised list?
-The finalized list is probably set in stone, yes. I mean, it's May, and the setting is going to be published in July, I believe.
Why did the OP assign some deities CE or LG but others just E, why is Bane (a LE deity) E or Asmodeus (the personification of LE) E...?
Torm and Bahamut seem to crossover on each other's portfolio's quite a lot...wonder how they will work out that...
-If Bahamut wasn't a deity who was confirmed to have been retaining his own essence, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that Bahamut could have been Torm's "racial form" towards Dragons. If you want to go "out of the loop" a little, since the information here is shaky, perhaps one could say that Torm was a Paladin dedicated to Bahamut, and that Bahamut petitioned for his apotheosis when he became a deity.
-Any way you put it, though, it is likely that Torm and Bahamut will be allies, and will be working closely together. It is likely that they will form a "new" Triad, I think.
Why did the OP assign some deities CE or LG but others just E, why is Bane (a LE deity) E or Asmodeus (the personification of LE) E...?
-You've got me. Maybe he/she wasn't 100% certain of alignment?
Torm and Bahamut seem to crossover on each other's portfolio's quite a lot...wonder how they will work out that...
Why did the OP assign some deities CE or LG but others just E, why is Bane (a LE deity) E or Asmodeus (the personification of LE) E...?
This comes up on a thread in the more general 4E forums, note I have not made a point of looking it up and am working off hearsay.
4E is cutting out several alignments, the new set will come out to
Lawful Good
Good
Unaligned
Evil
Chaotic Evil
I'd comment further but well that would be a bad thing right now.
This comes up on a thread in the more general 4E forums, note I have not made a point of looking it up and am working off hearsay.
4E is cutting out several alignments, the new set will come out to
Lawful Good
Good
Unaligned
Evil
Chaotic Evil
I'd comment further but well that would be a bad thing right now.
WTF???!!!
That is wack!
And makes no sense. Really.
WTF???!!!
That is wack!
And makes no sense. Really.
-In short, I agree. I am thinking, though, that this new LG really exemplifies the "Exalted Good" character, while the G exemplifies everyone else that is good, while CE really exemplifies that "Vile Evil" character, while the E exemplifies everyone else that is good. Of course, that's too bad for your Robin Hood heroes (CG), and those Sith-like villains (LE).
-But, oh well. Not my game, and I am guessing, not your either.
If memory (of again, hearsay) is accurate, some bright soul decided that Neutral and Chaotic Good were played too similarly while Lawful and Neutral Evil were also played very similarly so in the interest of avoiding redundancy (and needless symmetry) they diced certain things.
Going further with that logic, urdunnir are sometimes played/portrayed similarly to shield dwarves, when it comes to background etc. (there are some urdunnir on the surface, in shield dwarf towns) or my fey'ri who was disguising as an elf is also just a redundancy, why couln't I play a simple elf? Something's lacking here.
I need an explanation for this WotC. Axxing the amount of lore on the redundant alignments makes the job a lot easier heh?
Going further with that logic, urdunnir are sometimes played/portrayed similarly to shield dwarves, when it comes to background etc. (there are some urdunnir on the surface, in shield dwarf towns) or my fey'ri who was disguising as an elf is also just a redundancy, why couln't I play a simple elf? Something's lacking here.
-One of the core mantras that have been the 4e changes is something like, "No more redundency", or something to that effect. Don't expect to see Urdunnir anymore, either. Just a feeling. ;)
Could be its an effort to try to bring in people who get confused by the chaotic as anything but evil concept. There's an odd notion that seems to be prevalent with certain types that Law is always good and Chaos is always bad... I'd go into that more, but it's probably not wise at the moment.
-I don't know about that. I mean, one of the most famous good archetypes is the 'Robin Hood" hero, who happens to be CG. And, again, one of the most famous evil archetypes would be the "Hitler" villain, who happens to be LE. But, I don't know. If the goal is to boil things down intentionally...
I don't much care for it, either. Hell, I would've preferred to have seen the alignment system thrown out altogether and replaced by something like Allegiances from D20 Modern. But if they're gonna keep alignment, then they should've either kept Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil, or gotten rid of Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil and just used Good/Unaligned/Evil. Having LG and CE without CG and LE is just weird. Oh well.
I think if they were going to overhaul the alignment system, they should have just done what the preview materials hinted at--just have Good, Unaligned, and Evil. I don't get the rationale behind keeping two of the "extreme" alignments and getting rid of the others.
Could be its an effort to try to bring in people who get confused by the chaotic as anything but evil concept. There's an odd notion that seems to be prevalent with certain types that Law is always good and Chaos is always bad...
Yeah, that's one of the things I dislike about it.
Something's lacking here.
Agreed, but I was reporting hearsay rather than commenting. If I start commenting, I'll be less polite than I have been so far in this thread. The alignment shift is silly but mostly minor to me. The idiocy inherent in some of their other moves to limit redundancy or much of what their doing to FR ranks higher on my list of things to respond to.
So, continuing with LK's example, as a Robin Hood character, you may tell your DM: "I am chaotic good, you know, as in the previous editions... you get the idea, right?" or maybe "I will help people but I will go against the status quo. I will make something considered illegal: I will steal from the rich to help those that need that money more than anyone else."
Now, this is more a rule to say how good or evil you are, and has the same weight in your character sheet as the color of your hair.
-Indeed. And, truthfully, it really shouldn't. I am all in favor of alignment transcending the 'fluff' barrier, and it having tangible mechanical reflections (via, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, etc.).
My alignments (and portfolios) are guesses, but I think reducing the number was a good move. The Chaotic Good or Lawful Evil type characters are not eliminated by the 4e alignment choices, they are included under the broader heading of Good and Evil. We'll have to see how they define them, but this really is a story issue - alignment has no mechanical impact (which is good, in my opinion). They honestly could have eliminated alignments entirely and I don't think it would have made much of a difference.
-If Bahamut wasn't a deity who was confirmed to have been retaining his own essence, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that Bahamut could have been Torm's "racial form" towards Dragons. If you want to go "out of the loop" a little, since the information here is shaky, perhaps one could say that Torm was a Paladin dedicated to Bahamut, and that Bahamut petitioned for his apotheosis when he became a deity.
-Any way you put it, though, it is likely that Torm and Bahamut will be allies, and will be working closely together. It is likely that they will form a "new" Triad, I think.
My guess was that Torm has become the leader of the Triad, while Bahamut has come in to replace Helm. Now, GHotR mentions that both Siamorphe and Ilmater left for Brightwater - but I think we've been given some impression that one or both of them might return to the House of the Triad. They both had problems with the actions of Tyr, but Tyr is gone now.
My guess was that Torm has become the leader of the Triad, while Bahamut has come in to replace Helm. Now, GHotR mentions that both Siamorphe and Ilmater left for Brightwater - but I think we've been given some impression that one or both of them might return to the House of the Triad. They both had problems with the actions of Tyr, but Tyr is gone now.
I'm hoping for that, as well. I'd prefer to see both Ilmater and Siamorphe back in the House of the Triad, and hopefully we'll find out that they've since returned to the House of the Triad (and that Tymora's returned to Brightwater, or risen to Greater God status and founded her own deific realm). Nobanion would be a nice addition, to, as would Hoar. Six gods total in the House of the Triad would be nice.
As for the Triad itself, I'm hoping it'll get reformed with Torm at the top buttressed by Ilmater and Bahamut, Lesser Gods each. The Triad, IMO, should be one Greater God and two Lesser Gods. That's a triad. One at the top, two at the bottom. What you had before, with a Greater, Intermediate, and Lesser God wasn't a triad. It was a totem pole. Here's what I'm talking about.
And the greater House of the Triad organization (with Nobanion in the place of a new god, there), the Triad Triforce
. 
I'm hoping for that, as well. I'd prefer to see both Ilmater and Siamorphe back in the House of the Triad, and hopefully we'll find out that they've since returned to the House of the Triad (and that Tymora's returned to Brightwater, or risen to Greater God status and founded her own deific realm). Nobanion would be a nice addition, to, as would Hoar. Six gods total in the House of the Triad would be nice.
As for the Triad itself, I'm hoping it'll get reformed with Torm at the top buttressed by Ilmater and Bahamut, Lesser Gods each. The Triad, IMO, should be one Greater God and two Lesser Gods. That's a triad. One at the top, two at the bottom. What you had before, with a Greater, Intermediate, and Lesser God wasn't a triad. It was a totem pole. Here's what I'm talking about.
And the greater House of the Triad organization (with Nobanion in the place of a new god, there), the Triad Triforce
I think the idea of a new Triad is a bit repetitious. Why go through the same thing again?
It seems that the Realms in the 1470's will be a darker place and I think the gods and their alliances should reflect that.
As for the gods and their alliances, one would think that those alliances would be closer then ever, what with Lesser Gods and Demigods/Exarchs unable to have their own domains. Lesser Gods and Demigods are all in the service of Greater Gods. That alone makes those alliances pretty strong. And when it comes to a domain ruled over by a Lawful Good god, it makes sense to have some kind of organization and hierarchy. Hence, 'the Triad'.
Hoar manages to get back at Anhur and turns evil as Tyr's inlfuence is halted? (Hoar currently resides in the Barrens Doom and Despair which is bound to rub off some evil on him)
So what happens to the mulhorandi gods?
gonzo apparently. Do we know Set is sticking around?
I like that a lot actually. Set ruling a YuanTi infested Mulhorand opposed by Aumanator and Bahamut (I need to face it stinking dragonborn will be soiling up the fun in this region though) even Tiamat.
It seems that the Realms in the 1470's will be a darker place...
-All the more reason for more and more deities to form..."unions".
So what happens to the mulhorandi gods?
-It is wholly likely that most of them are going to be merged with likeminded deities.
That being said it's possible the spellplague and the merger with Abeir wiped Mulhorand off the map like it did to Unther. That'd be sad, but I'd be able to deal with it.
--It is wholly likely that most of them are going to be merged with likeminded deities.
I think there's a pretty decent chance they will all go. WoTC wants to decrease the number of deities because having more than 15 or 20 is apparently too confusing to the target audience. What better way to drop the numbers then by eliminating whole pantheons
One of my old DMs did something like that, with his homebrew deities in his world. Lines showing alliances and hatred and stuff like that.
And add in Gargauth, Talona, and Bhaal as the Demigods/Exarchs in service to Bane (Got the 'Dark Triad Triforce' set up, too, but no need to post it).
Although to be honest, this DOES fall into the "too much needless symmetry" thing. Still, I love the idea of Bane, Loviatar, and Tiamat working closer together. And with their archenemies Torm, Ilmater, and Bahamut forming a close alliance, I could see them drawing closer together to oppose them. Besides, I get this bad-ass He-Man vibe when I picture them duking it out. :D Rest assured, next time I run a Realms campaign, there WILL be a Dark Triad. Needless symmetry? Maybe. But damn if it doesn't look like it'd be immensely fun symmetry, too!
-It is wholly likely that most of them are going to be merged with likeminded deities.
This is probably going to happen. It is alluded to in F&P, let me paraphrase from memory: "scholars agree that in the future the mulhorandi pantheon will keep loosing influence and eventually will be merged with the faerunian pantheon"
Although to be honest, this DOES fall into the "too much needless symmetry" thing. Still, I love the idea of Bane, Loviatar, and Tiamat working closer together. And with their archenemies Torm, Ilmater, and Bahamut forming a close alliance, I could see them drawing closer together to oppose them. Besides, I get this bad-ass He-Man vibe when I picture them duking it out. :D Rest assured, next time I run a Realms campaign, there WILL be a Dark Triad. Needless symmetry? Maybe. But damn if it doesn't look like it'd be immensely fun symmetry, too!
-Not really. When one group amalgamates itself, it becomes exponentially more powerful. In order for, in this case, evil to survive, it, too, would need to amalgamate.
I see the Mulhorandi pantheon as quite stoic and pridefull. They would never merge themselves with the Fearunian dieties IMO. I think they just leave realmspace before that happens, perhaps taking all mulan pyramids to the skies on thier Chariot of Ptah and porting themsleves elsewhere. Only Set remains to reap his benefits with his advancement with the Yuan-Ti worship he gets.
-This would be a Retcon, however. As in "They were always..."
I dont mean that all mulan would leave... Only the pantheon and their royal offspring and a few other elites would be taken back to elsewhere. They will just forsake their worshippers for some reason. Perhaps the changelands accidentally trigger an imaskari artifect (what was it called, the Godsshield?) that shields the mulhorandi gods away from fearuns worship.
-I agree. Based on how the Mulan people work, that does indeed sound like the most likely thing that would happen in this situation. But, you misread me. I did't mean that what you were saying is going to be a Retcon. I meant that, come 4e Forgotten Realms, there will be the Retcon. It is wholly likely that the Mulhoandi Pantheon will simply consist of other "faces" of normal 'Faerûnian' deities, dispite some of the lore problems that causes, of course.
It is wholly likely that the Mulhoandi Pantheon will simply consist of other "faces" of normal 'Faerûnian' deities, dispite some of the lore problems that causes, of course.
Oh yeah.. like how they are going to merge the seldarine.
Oh yeah.. like how they are going to merge the seldarine.
-I am thinking, however, that's preferable to simply killing the major of them off, like what was done to the Mordinsamman (Dwarven Pantheon)...Maybe.
This is probably going to happen. It is alluded to in F&P, let me paraphrase from memory: "scholars agree that in the future the mulhorandi pantheon will keep loosing influence and eventually will be merged with the faerunian pantheon"
Perhaps its more semantics but I think it will be more of an absorption than merger
Perhaps its more semantics but I think it will be more of an absorption than merger
-Agreed.
Perhaps its more semantics but I think it will be more of an absorption than merger
Yea, that's what I meant in my original post - the Faerunian deities will absorb their like-minded mulhorandi counterparts. Thanks for the clarification
I like the idea of a merger - you could even have the Mulhorandi people refer the gods by the old names (Osiris for Kelemvor, as an example) and even have different methods of worship and so on. I believe the Rashemi already do something similar with a number of the gods.
-In certain cases, it makes sense. In others, it doesn't. From my observations, most of the prospective mergers seem to fall in the latter category, rather than the former. Again, from my perspective, the majority of the prospective mergers seem to be happening for the wrong reasons, and aren't exactly...smooth, in relation to the rest of Faerûn's story.
Again, from my perspective, the majority of the prospective mergers seem to be happening for the wrong reasons, and aren't exactly...smooth, in relation to the rest of Faerûn's story.
Heck, I'd say that's the case with most of the new setting changes in general.
Heck, I'd say that's the case with most of the new setting changes in general.
sing it, sister. The whole thing is just plain pointless
In that case they should've made the bare minimum amount of changes necessary to convert to 4E and left everything else alone.Especially with the whole "3 books and out" thing. I can see making these drastic changes if the line's tanking and you want to keep it going. But if you're not going to keep it going, anyway?
Of course, I don't think the line is tanking. When I have seen sales the FR books outsell Eberron
Heck, I'd say that's the case with most of the new setting changes in general.
-Yeah, I'd agree.
I've already had that discussion elsewhere, so I'm not really in the mood to repeat it. ;) Point is, if they're only gonna make three books (two really), then aren't all these changes pretty much pointless? Seems so to me, at least.
WotC won't continue the line anyway, so why wouldn't they give the Realms a massive facelift in order to attract casual gamers? It makes perfect sense, business-wise - most of the old fans will buy anything with an FR logo on it anyway, no matter how much fire and brimstone they're breathing right now, if only to find out how horribly mutated their setting has become; and non-fans get baited by the "Look, it's a completely new setting, everything you may have disliked in the past is gone - it's new, it's shiny, it's easy to use!" hints WotC's dropping left and right. If WotC continued the line in its "reimagined / reinvented / whatever state", the old fans would back out sooner or later. This way WotC's taking all the money the old fans would have been willing to invest anyway and that of the previous non-fans. Let's assume the New Realms can't hold a candle to the Classic Realms: When old and new customers find out, they'll have purchased the whole product line already. It's quite clever, actually.
Now, had WotC not changed much, they'd get the revenue for only two books (and an adventure module) from their old fans - that's far less profitable than continuing putting out sourcebooks. Because that doesn't agree with the new business model of "one disposable setting per year", they had to change the Realms on a massive scale to generate as much buzz as possible in order to get much more people than just their steady customers to buy their stuff.
DB
It makes perfect sense, business-wise - most of the old fans will buy anything with an FR logo on it anyway, no matter how much fire and brimstone they're breathing right now, if only to find out how horribly mutated their setting has become...
-This much, I disagree with, to a degree. Look at how many "current fans", based on just these boards, don't want anything to do with things. Those who contribute here certainly run the gamut from casual to hardcore, and, even with that difference in "investment time", many are still reaching the same conclusion.
-This much, I disagree with, to a degree. Look at how many "current fans", based on just these boards, don't want anything to do with things. Those who contribute here certainly run the gamut from casual to hardcore, and, even with that difference in "investment time", many are still reaching the same conclusion.
I don't know if we're representative of all FR fans (though I guess we're not), and although my impression is that there are more objectors than supporters, I can't be sure. Nevertheless, of course we're all curious what the designers have done to the Realms, and many of us have announced that they'll purchase the books - if only to have their fears confirmed. But the bottom line is that WotC doesn't care for what reason we buy their books - as long as we do.
Anyway, I can't say that WotC has published a single FR book that IMHO isn't inferior to its 2e counterpart - but their FR sales seem to have been pretty good (for a niche market, that is). That's why I think that the "WotC can't do no wrong" and "I don't care about the content, as long as it's on glossy paper and accompanied by snazzy art" crowds are big enough to ensure a financial success.
DB
I don't know if we're representative of all FR fans (though I guess we're not), and although my impression is that there are more objectors than supporters, I can't be sure. Nevertheless, of course we're all curious what the designers have done to the Realms, and many of us have announced that they'll purchase the books - if only to have their fears confirmed. But the bottom line is that WotC doesn't care for what reason we buy their books - as long as we do.
-I don't know if the opinions on these boards are in any way indicative of the greater shadow of the fanbase. No one knows. But, these boards to reflect a large difference in opinions, from the 1e apologists, to the 4e apologists. Someone made a quick poll in the defunct 4e Forgotten Realms section, and with all of these different opinions making their opinions known, for the most part, sentiment was not very complementary of what has been done.
Anyway, I can't say that WotC has published a single FR book that IMHO isn't inferior to its 2e counterpart - but their FR sales seem to have been pretty good (for a niche market, that is). That's why I think that the "WotC can't do no wrong" and "I don't care about the content, as long as it's on glossy paper and accompanied by snazzy art" crowds are big enough to ensure a financial success.
-There were a few that didn't have 2e counterparts that were very good. Lost Empires of Faerûn, for instance. Champions of Run/Valor were good concepts, but were a little wishy-washy in execution. If there had been a little more effort in those, they could qualify, too.
. Champions of Run/Valor were good concepts, but were a little wishy-washy in execution.
Dear, Bejebuz. Don't even tell me you used the term "wishy-washy" after reporting the last thread.
And I thought you were incorruptible.
Nevertheless, of course we're all curious what the designers have done to the Realms, and many of us have announced that they'll purchase the books - if only to have their fears confirmed.
DB
Not I.
most of the old fans will buy anything with an FR logo on it anyway, no matter how much fire and brimstone they're breathing right now, if only to find out how horribly mutated their setting has become;
I'm not sure how true that is
Dear, Bejebuz. Don't even tell me you used the term "wishy-washy" after reporting the last thread.
And I thought you were incorruptible.
-I used the term "wishy-washy" because they had promise. A book about Good/Evil in the Realms, a bunch of Good/Evil organizations, and the philosophies of good and evil in the Realms would have been great. Especially if the book focused on the last category. Both books attempted to do just that, but didn't exactly do that very well. I'll give them credit that they tried...Hence, "wishy-washy".
-I used the term "wishy-washy" because they had promise. A book about Good/Evil in the Realms, a bunch of Good/Evil organizations, and the philosophies of good and evil in the Realms would have been great. Especially if the book focused on the last category. Both books attempted to do just that, but didn't exactly do that very well. I'll give them credit that they tried...Hence, "wishy-washy".
"Thin and watery" or simply "weak and without punch" could have sufficed. But, oh well....
Since I have just now been able to catch up with this thread, I would like to mention that gods are only strong as their following. Since they are trying to do the whole Points of Light thing, perhaps this can pass on to the gods as well.
As evil sweeps through Faerun over the course of the next century, will not the people encompassed by it--like those in the Empire of Shade--be converted to the same faiths? Wherein Shar becomes stronger and the deities of good become weaker?
When does it come to a point where a gods followers dwindle so much that they are soon to become snuffed out? Is it possible that two gods can be reduced to lesser deities and, seeing the extinction of both, choose to merge as one in order to survive? Or, perhaps in the instance of Waukeen, a portfolio gets care taken of by another during such times?
It'd make more sense to me than this "always has been and was" bit.
"Thin and watery" or simply "weak and without punch" could have sufficed. But, oh well....
-Weak and without punch would have been good...
Since I have just now been able to catch up with this thread, I would like to mention that gods are only strong as their following. Since they are trying to do the whole Points of Light thing, perhaps this can pass on to the gods as well.
As evil sweeps through Faerun over the course of the next century, will not the people encompassed by it--like those in the Empire of Shade--be converted to the same faiths? Wherein Shar becomes stronger and the deities of good become weaker?
When does it come to a point where a gods followers dwindle so much that they are soon to become snuffed out? Is it possible that two gods can be reduced to lesser deities and, seeing the extinction of both, choose to merge as one in order to survive? Or, perhaps in the instance of Waukeen, a portfolio gets care taken of by another during such times?
It'd make more sense to me than this "always has been and was" bit.
-The rough formula for determining the power of a deity is:
Po = (Fo x Fe) + P1 + P2 ...
where..
Po = Power
Fo = Number of Followers
Fe = Fervor of Followers
P1= Portfolio 1
P2 = Portfolio 2
... = And so on
-The rough formula for determining the power of a deity is:
Po = (Fo x Fe) + P1 + P2 ...
where..
Po = Power
Fo = Number of Followers
Fe = Fervor of Followers
P1= Portfolio 1
P2 = Portfolio 2
... = And so on
Interesting equation. Yet, it might still equate to a lesser following. Which, at that point, you must ask what equals "="
Interesting equation. Yet, it might still equate to a lesser following. Which, at that point, you must ask what equals "="
-Come again? You lost me.
I meant it more like, Fo == Fe, comparing the values of the two.
In determining power of a god, I've never heard of fervor being part of the equation--only the number of followers themselves. Perhaps this is another thing that was brought up in Power of Faerun, that I have yet to become privy to.
What god has more power? The god with 10 steadfast believers, or the god with only 5, but who are themselves complete holy rollers? If both Shar and Selune have 10,000 worshipers a piece and Shar has more radicals in her group, does her divine rank go up?
I meant it more like, Fo == Fe, comparing the values of the two.
-Fo wouldn't equal Fe. I'll explain in your theoretical question below.
In determining power of a god, I've never heard of fervor being part of the equation--only the number of followers themselves. Perhaps this is another thing that was brought up in Power of Faerun, that I have yet to become privy to.
What god has more power? The god with 10 steadfast believers, or the god with only 5, but who are themselves complete holy rollers? If both Shar and Selune have 10,000 worshipers a piece and Shar has more radicals in her group, does her divine rank go up?
-Let's assign arbitrary values to all of these numbers.
Deity 1
Followers: 120
Fervor: 5 (They aren't very religious)
Deity 2
Followers: 25
Fervor: 50 (They are very religious)
Deity 1
120 x 5 = 600
Deity 2
25 x 50 1250
-So, as you can see, fervor is a very powerful and important multiplier. A deity can have a lot of followers, but if they are all blase, and pay the deity mostly lip service, that deity is not really benefitting by it. Conversely, if a deity has only a few followers, but they are all very zealous and fanatical, the deity is benefitting from it.
-Of course, things are never so straighforward. Some worshippers will be fanatical, and some won't. I'm just using straight figures that are easy for me, but I'm sureyou get the idea.
Trust me, I agree with it, it just can't be applied so much to an argument if it hasn't been cast in stone somewhere.
That's what I was looking for. Now, where is this fervor thing stated? Or is this another logical assumption?
-Logic. Deities want people to genuinely believe in them, "love" them, "fear" them, and so on, rather than people simply pay them lip service, and not mean it. Lolth is a good example of all of this, concerning zeal and all of that.
-Logic. Deities want people to genuinely believe in them, "love" them, "fear" them, and so on, rather than people simply pay them lip service, and not mean it. Lolth is a good example of all of this, concerning zeal and all of that.
Then fervor has no basis in the argument, as it nowhere specifically states within FR materials that such a thing increases the power or divine rank of a deity. We must move forward on the thought that followers alone establish such a thing.
As said, I agree with the logic, just not its application to the matter at hand.
Then fervor has no basis in the argument, as it nowhere specifically states within FR materials that such a thing increases the power or divine rank of a deity. We must move forward on the thought that followers alone establish such a thing.
As said, I agree with the logic, just not its application to the matter at hand.
-As I just demonstrated, there is precident in the Forgotten Realms. As such, it must be factored in.
Edit: Page three of Faiths and Avatars specifically states that worshipers' zeal is something to be factored in. The manner in which I included it into the equation, however, is my own, based on the logic that the more fervant the worshipper, the more this individual empowers the deity, and the less fervant the worshipper, the less this individual empowers the deity. So, there we go.
Indeed it is. And, of course, the matter in which the two decide the status of a deity is completely up to AO, so you can make an argument with or without a formula.
AO definitely stands for AssO
No doubt.
EDIT: BTW. There is another AssO on TV right now.
-I used the term "wishy-washy" because they had promise. A book about Good/Evil in the Realms, a bunch of Good/Evil organizations, and the philosophies of good and evil in the Realms would have been great. Especially if the book focused on the last category. Both books attempted to do just that, but didn't exactly do that very well. I'll give them credit that they tried...Hence, "wishy-washy".
I agree. The books were mediocre. Lords of Darkness was a much better book than the 3.5 Bad Guy Supplement. Champs of Valor was OK
Lords of Darkness was a much better book than the 3.5 Bad Guy Supplement. Champs of Valor was OK
I am so glad I finally got Lords of Darkness back. I lent it to a friend years ago. And then while I wasn't looking, he decided to pack up and move to LA. Whahuh?!? So I ask him what he did with Lords of Darkness and Into the Dragon's Lair (which I'd bought off of eBay) and he says he gave all his old books to a mutual acquaintance (Damn! If I'd known ahead of time that he was gonna make this sudden move then I could've laid claim to those books!
). And he said that Lords of Darkness and Into the Dragons Lair was among those books. So I call the guy. He swears up and down that he'll return them. He doesn't deliver. I call again, and he swears up and down yet again that he'll bring them by. He doesn't. I call again and ask him for his address so I can go pick them up, and he says no, no, no, he'll bring them to me. Naturally I never got them. I thought they were gone for good, until in march I went to LA to visit the aformentioned friend. While he was off at work and I was rummaging through his gaming books, what did I happen to find? Lords of Darkness and Into the Dragons Lair. Rest assured, they went straight into my luggage bags the moment I got my hands on them, and now they're sitting back on my bookshelves where they rightfully belong. :D
Champions of Valor did have that bit on horses in the back, which I really liked... wouldn't have minded something similar for dogs too, but I've a feeling that isn't going to happen.
-Given what we know about the future, and the likely medium of it, I don't find that sort of thing likely, to be honest.
-I'd assault anyone who tried to steal my books, "intentionally" or otherwise.
I've actually done that, before. I once went to play a game of Warhammer Fantasy at the house of an acquaintance of a friend. Took my Undead army and a couple spare books. After we played it was late so I asked the guy if I could leave my stuff there and if he could return it to me, later. He agreed. To make a long story short, after dozens of calls, not only did he not return my stuff (which cost me over $400), but he sold it all to someone else for $50. The next time I saw him was at a gamestore, where I promptly kicked him off the chair he was sitting on and beat him while he was down before the other store patrons pulled me off of him and threw me out.
Ended up getting banned from that gamestore, which sucked, cause it was the best one in town. My ban eventually got lifted, though, on the condition that if either of us was there when the other one showed up the other had to leave. It never came up, though, as I never saw his scumbag face again.
I've actually done that, before. I once went to play a game of Warhammer Fantasy at the house of an acquaintance of a friend. Took my Undead army and a couple spare books. After we played it was late so I asked the guy if I could leave my stuff there and if he could return it to me, later. He agreed. To make a long story short, after dozens of calls, not only did he not return my stuff (which cost me over $400), but he sold it all to someone else for $50.
What a jerk!
Well, the story doesn't end with me kicking his ass,
why is that?
Well, the story doesn't end with me kicking his ass, but I didn't want to ramble.
Hilar'.
That's a great ending line to any novel. :D
Hilar'.
That's a great ending line to any novel. :D
especially romance novels
Well, the story doesn't end with me kicking his ass, but I didn't want to ramble. And yeah, it did suck. I had several big pieces in that collection, including clown hat Nagash, Arkhan the Black, and a Zombie Dragon.
I'll leave you as the judge on this one.
Whatever, puss. ;)
especially romance novels
Read a lot of romance novels, Nancy? :P
Read a lot of romance novels, Nancy? :P
I bet his wife makes him He was blushing at a sopposed romantic interes from two of our regular posters you know?this whole thing is making me blush
more please
Read a lot of romance novels, Nancy? :P
define "a lot"
You're male, so a lot equals "one or more". :P
I only like novels that have big swords and spears and.....and.......oh boy
Oh, geeze! For God's sake, man, keep it to yourself!I only like novels that have big swords and spears and.....and.......oh boy
Boyz. We got it.
Lets progress now.
Boyz. We got it.
Lets progress now.
right
Sometimes this place just puts the biggest smile on my face... other times...
your welcome
Back to the topic of the thread (you do remember the original topic, don't you?). I would like to see Amaunator replace Lathander.
I'm not sure if that's going to happen, but as I currently read Swordmage, the main character's friend is buired with the symbol of Amaunator on his sepulcher
According to Rich Baker, Amaunator is Lathander--they are two parts of a tripartite deity.
-I would like it (I like the concept), if it had some precedent, and did not come out of left field.
Amaunator will not be replacing Lathander.
According to Rich Baker, Amaunator is Lathander--they are two parts of a tripartite deity.
who is number 3?
who is number 3?
-Currently, there isn't one. Think about that for a second.
-It'd be the holder of the 'Dusk' portfolio, being as that dawn, noon and dusk make up the day. Since the 'Dusk' portfolio is loose right now...
Amaunator will not be replacing Lathander.
According to Rich Baker, Amaunator is Lathander
So how is Lathander "becoming" Amaunator significantly different from Lathander being "replaced by" Amaunator?
Either way, I am not happy with Amaunator taking over as sun god. There's a huge difference between a NG deity and a LN deity. It really ruins my paladin of Lathander character.
Currently, there isn't one. Think about that for a second.
Well, doesn't the Three-Faced Sun heresy say that only two aspects of the sun deity can be seen at any one time? That's why there's no number 3. So if they're going back to having two aspects at a time, then maybe Lathander will actually continue in 4E as the dawn and Amaunator will be the highsun. Or Amaunator will be the highsun, and someone else will be dusk. Or we'll find out that the Three-Faced Sun heresy was just totally wrong.
So how is Lathander "becoming" Amaunator significantly different from Lathander being "replaced by" Amaunator?
-Being as that they are the same higher entity, Lathander is being morphed, not replaced. The higher entity that is Lathander is not going anywhere. The higher entity that is Lathander continues to exist, as Amaunator.
Well, doesn't the Three-Faced Sun heresy say that only two aspects of the sun deity can be seen at any one time?
-So we all hypothesize.
That's why there's no number 3. So if they're going back to having two aspects at a time, then maybe Lathander will actually continue in 4E as the dawn and Amaunator will be the highsun. Or Amaunator will be the highsun, and someone else will be dusk. Or we'll find out that the Three-Faced Sun heresy was just totally wrong.
-With Amaunator taking precedent over Lathander, there is actually no Number 1 (Dawn) or Number 3 (Dusk), either.
Hoar manages to get back at Anhur and turns evil as Tyr's inlfuence is halted? (Hoar currently resides in the Barrens Doom and Despair which is bound to rub off some evil on him)
Or Hoar becomes a "Lawyer"...
-"All debts are to be repaid in kind."-
Sidenote: Where else would you think to find a Deity of Vengeance? Brightwater? He'd make more sense in Warrior's Rest then there...
Boy am I late to the party... <.< >.>
I want to see Hoar end up in Torm's service. It'd be neat. Make him the Realms equivalent of the Spectre. Travelling around Faerun and handing out ironic punishments to evil-doers.
That'd be sweet...
Well, since 4e nerfed the alignment system, that really doesn't matter any more, now does it?
I guess technically. But in terms of storyline and personality, there's quite a difference between a god who's all about doing the right thing and a god who doesn't care about morality at all so long as you obey. I mean, for any kind of good-aligned character, Lathander had a lot of appeal. But Amaunator? He's basically an overpowered lawyer.
Being as that they are the same higher entity, Lathander is being morphed, not replaced. The higher entity that is Lathander is not going anywhere. The higher entity that is Lathander continues to exist, as Amaunator.
Yes, I understand that. But even if they are the same entity in a Holy Trinity kind of way, my point is simply that for all practical purposes, Lathander morphing into Amaunator basically has the same effect as him being replaced by Amaunator. As I mentioned, the two of them have very different personalities. So if it looks like Amaunator and sounds like Amaunator, it's Amaunator, even if technically it's also Lathander.
With Amaunator taking precedent over Lathander, there is actually no Number 1 (Dawn) or Number 3 (Dusk), either.
I thought there were usually supposed to be two aspects present at a given time and that Lathander's dominance after the Time of Troubles was basically a fluke. Oh well. I kind of got the impression that they were going more with the Risen Sun heresy anyway. But I guess we'll find out in August.
Either way, I am not happy with Amaunator taking over as sun god. There's a huge difference between a NG deity and a LN deity. It really ruins my paladin of Lathander character.
Hey, I never said I liked this change.
I'm just saying what it is.By the way, your second quote is misattributed to me.
I want to see Hoar end up in Torm's service. It'd be neat. Make him the Realms equivalent of the Spectre. Travelling around Faerun and handing out ironic punishments to evil-doers.
Also, it'd be a nice change from the "Shar takes all" trend (well, it seems like a trend to me anyway).
I guess technically. But in terms of storyline and personality, there's quite a difference between a god who's all about doing the right thing and a god who doesn't care about morality at all so long as you obey. I mean, for any kind of good-aligned character, Lathander had a lot of appeal. But Amaunator? He's basically an overpowered lawyer.
Bear in mind that this time around, Amaunator might have a different attitude. He may not be the same type of being he was back in the days of Netheril.
Again, I'm just trying to be objective, I'm not saying anyone should like this change.
For some reason i've had this special fondness for Amaunator ever since running through BG:SoA years ago.
And no, I don't think it's been fully detailed, simply hinted at that that fire genasi heretic over in Elversult possibly had something to do with it.
And no, I don't think it's been fully detailed, simply hinted at that that fire genasi heretic over in Elversult possibly had something to do with it.
-All we know right now is that *BAM* Amaunator is back.
Yes, I understand that. But even if they are the same entity in a Holy Trinity kind of way, my point is simply that for all practical purposes, Lathander morphing into Amaunator basically has the same effect as him being replaced by Amaunator. As I mentioned, the two of them have very different personalities. So if it looks like Amaunator and sounds like Amaunator, it's Amaunator, even if technically it's also Lathander.
-Right, but Lathander isn't being replaced. He's still there, but as Amaunator now. ;)
I thought there were usually supposed to be two aspects present at a given time and that Lathander's dominance after the Time of Troubles was basically a fluke. Oh well. I kind of got the impression that they were going more with the Risen Sun heresy anyway. But I guess we'll find out in August.
-So the hypothesis goes. The 'Dusk' aspect was around for most of the this time, with Myrkul.
By the way, your second quote is misattributed to me.
Whoopsies. Got a little carried away with my copying and pasting there. Sorry about that. It's fixed now.
Bear in mind that this time around, Amaunator might have a different attitude. He may not be the same type of being he was back in the days of Netheril.
I suppose there is that. Either way, I'll still be very interested in seeing how they handle the Lathander to Amaunator switch.
Bel
-Because he is taking the role of Lathander, I can see him as being Lawful Good, actually. Think Pelor rip-off. ;)
I'd rather not, let's hope he stops at Good.
Bel
I'd rather not, let's hope he stops at Good.
Bel
He's the deity of contracts and laws*. If that isn't lawful...
*or at least he was.
-I can see him, as I said, filling a very Pelor-like niche. I am thinking a combination of Helm, and Lathander. That would produce a LG deity.
I imagine that the new Amaunator will keep some of his Lathanderite "goodness", and in a sense be a more mature deity than the Amaunator-of-old who was more lawful neutral (caring more about the letter of the law more than the intent).
I want to see Hoar end up in Torm's service. It'd be neat. Make him the Realms equivalent of the Spectre. Travelling around Faerun and handing out ironic punishments to evil-doers.
Aye. He could be "The Saint Poetic Justice" or the Exarch of Vengence or some such thing. Maybe his name can be changed to Assuran so people won't laugh at his followers and then get killed by them :D .
LN has no real faction anymore and has to choose LG so Hoar eventually serving Torm or Bahamut is evident. Unaligned or Good for Hoar misses his "by the spirit of the law" philosophy. Evil might fit him when he's blinded by rules of retribution; though I cant fathom them actually putting Hoar under an evil taskmaster.
Aye. He could be "The Saint Poetic Justice" or the Exarch of Vengence or some such thing. Maybe his name can be changed to Assuran so people won't laugh at his followers and then get killed by them :D .
Unlikely. If they were/are changing the name of Aasimar to whatever it is now, because some people can't say it with out "ass", then Hoar's getting an all around new name, again. :rolleye2:
I really want Hoar on the prime to hook up with Beshaba's avatars more often. The tricks they could pull off together would be sweet. I still want 15th century Hoar to remain having that embittered, ironic edge.
How much ya bet he's "hittin' it"? :P
LN has no real faction anymore and has to choose LG so Hoar eventually serving Torm or Bahamut is evident. Unaligned or Good for Hoar misses his "by the spirit of the law" philosophy. Evil might fit him when he's blinded by rules of retribution; though I cant fathom them actually putting Hoar under an evil taskmaster.
I can... But that's because I'm pessimistic.
-Unaligned is probably the best that there is for Hoar, simply because of his "mood swings".
Well, so long as he stays away from... Umm... I think it's Prozac... Anyway, it has a habit of doing "strange things" to me family, it'd be Hoar's luck if it left him a little "odd" as well.
And yeah, you're not the only one that wants Myrkul back.
You know what would've been nice? Lathander's plans blowing up in his face, again, resulting in the gods of Dawn, Highsun, and Dusk being able to coexist at the same time. Lathander, Amaunator, and Myrkul active at once. Then you could've had Lathander and Myrkul perpetually at each others throats with Amaunator inbetween them, staying aloof in their conflict or occasionally giving one or the other aid depending on the particular circumstances. That would've been interesting.
And yeah, you're not the only one that wants Myrkul back.
That would have been a good "retro" rearranging of the pantheon. You know: something old, something new.
You know what would've been nice? Lathander's plans blowing up in his face, again, resulting in the gods of Dawn, Highsun, and Dusk being able to coexist at the same time. Lathander, Amaunator, and Myrkul active at once. Then you could've had Lathander and Myrkul perpetually at each others throats with Amaunator inbetween them, staying aloof in their conflict or occasionally giving one or the other aid depending on the particular circumstances. That would've been interesting.
And yeah, you're not the only one that wants Myrkul back.
-Agh! Too many deities! Makes head hurt! Arghh!
Since the Shadovar brought Netheril back to Faerun, it would seem to follow that some of Netheril's ancient religions would make a re-appearance as well.
-No. The Shadovar only worship Shar, so...
-Agh! Too many deities! Makes head hurt! Arghh!
In the end, there will be only one. ;)
Do we really know that all the lesser deities and mulhorandi deities will get killed off? I get the feeling that they will simply be demoted as exarchs. The mulhorandi could easily end up with 1-2 deities served by several exarchs.
-One of the mantras of the 4e design team is to stop "unnecessary" uniformity. They transition has also introduced a relatively new* concept, of deities wearing "masks", appearing to worshipers from other places as different deities. This is going to be the case with the Mulhorandi, a niche place with a niche pantheon.
*There are only a few cases of this in old material.
In the end, there will be only one. ;)
-Primus! Primus the One and Primary!
Primus! Primus the One and Primary!
... and then he pulls off his "mask": "PSYCH! I'm Ao! And you're on Scare Tactics!"
-I can see him, as I said, filling a very Pelor-like niche. I am thinking a combination of Helm, and Lathander. That would produce a LG deity.
Mind you, Pelor is "Good".;)
Mind you, Pelor is "Good".;)
-Good...Lawful Good. All of this still confuses me, sometimes. :embarrass
-Good...Lawful Good. All of this still confuses me, sometimes. :embarrass
Me too and I have the books.....!
Me too and I have the books.....!
-Good point. At least I can claim ignorance, being as that I don't have the books. You? No excuse! :P
-Good point. At least I can claim ignorance, being as that I don't have the books. You? No excuse! :P
aww.....*hangs head in shame*
And LG is not supposed to be stronger than good. It is not a single axis that goes CE
And Pelor has never been lawful good anyway, has he?
The confusion between good and lawful good (after all, all the old good alignments were commonly lumped together as "good"), is just one of several reasons why WotC shouldn't have kept LG and CE around.
-Agreed. Either that, or keep their 'opposites' (LE and CG).
The alignment debate is fictional not factual.
Of course it is. I just would have prefered that the alignments have been Good, Unaligned, and Evil.
Oh well.
And Pelor has never been lawful good anyway, has he?
Not that I recall. He used to be "Neutral Good".
Of course it is. I just would have prefered that the alignments have been Good, Unaligned, and Evil.
Oh well.
I think they should have gone with Righteous, Nice, Unaligned, Evil and Bad A** Mother******
I think they should have gone with Righteous, Nice, Unaligned, Evil and Bad A** Mother******
-"There's Dragons in a mother ****ing Dungeon!", a la Samuel Jackson, who I can't stand as an actor.
-"There's Dragons in a mother ****ing Dungeon!", a la Samuel Jackson, who I can't stand as an actor.
but he's Nick Fury now
but he's Nick Fury now
-Ultimate Nick Fury.
-Ultimate Nick Fury.
did you see Iron Man or the Hulk?
did you see Iron Man or the Hulk?
-Iron Man, yes.
-THIS is Nick Fury. THIS is Ultimate Nick Fury. Notice the difference?
-But, neither are in the 4-Gotten Realms pantheon, so...;)
-Iron Man, yes.
-THIS is Nick Fury. THIS is Ultimate Nick Fury. Notice the difference?
-But, neither are in the 4-Gotten Realms pantheon, so...;)
well, maybe they should be
Back to the original topic, do we know if any "major deities" are getting the axe, other than Mystra?
well, maybe they should be
-Hmm...
Back to the original topic, do we know if any "major deities" are getting the axe, other than Mystra?
-Lathander is being "morphed" into Amaunator, so he's gone. Tyr is also...leaving, randomly, so count him gone as well. And, we know Helm is dead.
-Hmm...
-Lathander is being "morphed" into Amaunator, so he's gone. Tyr is also...leaving, randomly, so count him gone as well. And, we know Helm is dead.
Right and the various dwarf gods are gone. Cyric is imprisoned. I assume most of the other major players are there
Right and the various dwarf gods are gone. Cyric is imprisoned. I assume most of the other major players are there
-In theory.
I think Ilmater in particular is likely to get shacked. And only some of the dwarven gods snuffed it (mostly the evil and/or younger ones). I am pretty sure the rest will survive as exarchs of Moradin.
actually, I just read Rich Baker confirming that Ilmater is a deity with a full write-up
I think Ilmater in particular is likely to get shacked. And only some of the dwarven gods snuffed it (mostly the evil and/or younger ones). I am pretty sure the rest will survive as exarchs of Moradin.
-Rich Baker just confirmed either today or last night that Ilmater will be around as a deity.
"Yep, Ilmater is still considered one of the major deities and gets the full-on description in the 4e FRCG."
-Rich Baker just confirmed either today or last night that Ilmater will be around as a deity.
"Yep, Ilmater is still considered one of the major deities and gets the full-on description in the 4e FRCG."
beat ya to the punch. Not as a quick as you used to be huh?
beat ya to the punch. Not as a quick as you used to be huh?
-Yeah, well I included his quote, so...:P
well, maybe they should be
Back to the original topic, do we know if any "major deities" are getting the axe, other than Mystra?
Depends if you are including the Drow Pantheon in this category. Possibly not, but it should be noted that a few will not make any returns in the 4e FR pantheon.
Depends if you are including the Drow Pantheon in this category. Possibly not, but it should be noted that a few will not make any returns in the 4e FR pantheon.
-Correct. As of right now, the Drow "pantheon" is only going to be consisting of Lolth. Perhaps Ghaunadaur, but AGHotR alludes that he abandons the Demonweb Pits, so presumably, he abandons the Drow as well.
From appearances, it looks like Ghaunadar's a Primordial. So maybe he'll move in with Kossuth and co?
-AGHotR states where he goes.
-Good...Lawful Good. All of this still confuses me, sometimes. :embarrass
-The new alignment system still confuses me. The fact that they chose to squeeze in CG and LE with "good" and "evil" rather than their counterparts tells me that they are ripping a couple of pages off of Warcraft and Warhammer and delibrately associating chaos with evil and order with good, as seems to be the trend in fantasy today.
- Personally I think that if they wanted a simplified system they should have removed NG, NE, CN, and LN, kept the extremes, and grouped all the neutrals under unaligned all as possible aspects of that personality. I know with 4e they wanted to eliminate parallelism (it may be just me, but I still don't see any celestials), but still, this new system just dosen't seem to make sense to me in any situations beyond combat, as that seems to be what WoTC is gravitating towards right now.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Gorm_Gulthyn
He seems like an excellent deity for my Dwarven Warlord in the East Rift region of LFR.
Thanks
Both him and Haela Brightaxe were killed in a battle with the Duergar gods.
Well, there are always vestiges:D
Both him and Haela Brightaxe were killed in a battle with the Duergar gods.
See, this new setting kills dreams.:P
Just kidding. Sort of.
Two whole pantheons are lost, Halflings because they no longer reflect the nature of the race and Gnomes because now they're monsters, Rawr!
Bel
It looks like the majority of racial deities are being 'let go', only Corellon, Sehanine, Moradin and Gruumsh seem to have made in the core setting, I don't see many more suviving in the new realms.
-Yep.
I try to stay positive, as much of 4E comes off wrong initially but is fun (I liken it to a great board game with RP).
The gods in the PHB are something I am struggling with, as I just don't see the fun of taking Moradin or Corellon and making any human feel totally normal worshiping them. It doesn't really make much sense, unless we are saying that the new 4E is a very different place where races have always intermingled and gotten along just fine. Tieflings and Dragonborn, as new arrivals, should have very different gods, with slight leanings towards a few existing deities. Demihumans, if they have been living largely in their own places (Dwarven cities, elven forest homes, etc.) should also favor their own deities. That's just the way religion works.
My hope is that I am reading too much into this and that future books will clarify this and allow for more options. Until then, I am pre-cringing for the moment some elf PC tells my Dwarf that she worships Moradin. *Cry*
Thanks,
Teos
But there's a little problem with that review. They expect to separate deity and race identification and, yeah, non-elves will worship him, but more elves "than those needed" are still very close to him and will worship him, something they don't really want to happen!
Why do you think they don't want that to happen? By the PHB most races still worship their races patron, they simply worship other gods as well. They do want to diffuse the racial boundaries on issues of polytheism but I don't think they ever intent to completely abolish them. Elven rogues will still prefer Erevan, even if he gets demoted to an exarch, over Tymora or Mask.
Well Amaunator is back and with Mystra dead he will probably try to legally claim the portfolio of time again.
Ah yea, how could I forget about old-man nooner?
I'm still trying to forget him. If one thing completely disgusts me in 4E it is the likelyhood that there won't be Lathander . . . What on earth am I supposed to play without Lathander?
Horned Harbinger?
Necromancer?
Cleric of Myrkul (+initiate of Fallen?)
Oh wait! None of those things exist in 4e! How could I forget!?
:raincloud
I like Myrkul as well, but I prefer Kelemvor. Tbh I don't see why we could not have both. Or why Myrkul could not have risen as a lich god through some mad scheme of his former worshipers that was fueled by the spellplague itself. I might actually make that happen in my campaign
You miss my point, but yes! Yes, you should all love Lord Bones.
About your lich idea... I always found it interesting that Velsharoon's holy symbol was a skull with a very tall crown, almost as if it were horned.
Why do you think they don't want that to happen? By the PHB most races still worship their races patron, they simply worship other gods as well. They do want to diffuse the racial boundaries on issues of polytheism but I don't think they ever intent to completely abolish them. Elven rogues will still prefer Erevan, even if he gets demoted to an exarch, over Tymora or Mask.
Well, regarding the core gods, not every race has a "patron deity". Also, there isn't an elven or dwarven version of every "regular" god (for example, there's no specifically "dwarven" god of beauty and spring).
As far as the FR gods go, a lot of the "pruning of pantheons" will probably leave a similar situation--there won't be a version of each "regular" god for each race. For example, it may turn out that Sehanine and Selune are the same being (as Rich Baker suggested), Hanali and Sune are the same being, etc.
Well, regarding the core gods, not every race has a "patron deity". Also, there isn't an elven or dwarven version of every "regular" god (for example, there's no specifically "dwarven" god of beauty and spring).
As far as the FR gods go, a lot of the "pruning of pantheons" will probably leave a similar situation--there won't be a version of each "regular" god for each race. For example, it may turn out that Sehanine and Selune are the same being (as Rich Baker suggested), Hanali and Sune are the same being, etc.
Well I don't see a need for dwarven gods or even exarchs that cover every portfolio or even all the portfolios of major deities. Actually polytheistic societies have managed quite well with gods that did not after all. Moreover the limited portfolios of racial pantheons have always served to emphasize racial character.
I cannot really comment on deity mergers without actually seeing them first, I will agree with the relative common sentiment that they are unnecessary. Personally I think that the logical effect of the spellplague and the changes it forced on deities would be to change temple structures to mirror the increasing dependency of lesser deities and exarchs to the greater deities that sustain their dominions. Since for instance the deities of Brightwater depended on Sune's presence during the spellplague, maybe their churches should be subsumed to her church with temples being reconsecrated to the subgroups of the Faerunian pantheon and featuring multiple shrines. After all with the lesser deities being constrained and the people in panic at the effects of the spellplague, I would see it likely that many would flock over the temples of the greater gods, who could probably maintain a stronger presence during the spellplague (and I would expect several people to forsake the divine altogether for failing to shield them from the disaster, as was done after the fall of Netheril). This would resolve the issue that Rich Baker suggested (the fact that worshippers of a deity would often lack personal quest hooks because of a lack of a regional temple).
Not only that, but "racial" deities don't seem to be all that "racial" anymore. For example, the core Corellon has wide appeal and isn't solely worshipped by elves.
-Hopefully, this does not seep into the Forgotten Realms.
Will this be the same still in fourth edition realms or, because of the nature of magic changes, not?
The 4th edition players suggest you allows follow a god. And I think i never saw a cleric in the realms, who did not worship a god. I like the idea of the prestige class in the Book of Vile Darkness, who where clerics who stole spells from gods rather then pray for them. But those where basicly, mostly, ex-clerics as I understood it. But that is a different subject.
Thanks for your answers
Couldn't find the answer to this question anywhere, but in 3rd edition itself you didn't have to worship a good itself to be a cleric, in the realms you had to.
Will this be the same still in fourth edition realms or, because of the nature of magic changes, not? Thanks for your answers
-Probably. For an exact answer, though, we'll just have to wait and see.
By the way, 4E clerics do have to choose a deity.
Correction. 4E clerics have to choose a faith. Read Clerics and Deities on pg 61 again.
Quoting:
Sometimes clerics are devoted to churches that venerate groups of deities or even philosophies.
Moreover your prayers are powered by your investiture as a cleric of your church, not by the object of your faith.
Correction. 4E clerics have to choose a faith. Read Clerics and Deities on pg 61 again.
Quoting:
Sometimes clerics are devoted to churches that venerate groups of deities or even philosophies.
Moreover your prayers are powered by your investiture as a cleric of your church, not by the object of your faith.
-So, it's basically how it already was, per the Core Rules. In the Forgotten Realms, you'll still need a source of power to grant you those spells, so a deity is still going to be involved. I, personally, never liked the concept that the force of your own belief supplied your own spells, up to a certain point.
-So, it's basically how it already was, per the Core Rules. In the Forgotten Realms, you'll still need a source of power to grant you those spells, so a deity is still going to be involved. I, personally, never liked the concept that the force of your own belief supplied your own spells, up to a certain point.
Well, we are talking about the 4-gotten Realms here, not the Forgotten Realms. So things might change. After all, you can now use core and even Eberron elements in FR as of 4e and many designers even recommended it in their blogs.
Well, we are talking about the 4-gotten Realms here, not the Forgotten Realms. So things might change. After all, you can now use core and even Eberron elements in FR as of 4e and many designers even recommended it in their blogs.
-You could have always used Core stuff in your Forgotten Realms campaigns. And, the using of Core stuff in canon Forgotten Realms already exists. There is a thread about adapting Goliath into the Realms. Goliath do, indeed, exist, as they have been introduced in two different Forgotten Realms sources (Depths of Madness and Champions of Valor), even though they originated in Realms of Stone.
-You could have always used Core stuff in your Forgotten Realms campaigns. And, the using of Core stuff in canon Forgotten Realms already exists. There is a thread about adapting Goliath into the Realms. Goliath do, indeed, exist, as they have been introduced in two different Forgotten Realms sources (Depths of Madness and Champions of Valor), even though they originated in Realms of Stone.
So why are you arguing with me if a gnome cleric that draws power from a jar of dirt that represents the power of manure could exist in the Realms anyway.;)
So why are you arguing with me if a gnome cleric that draws power from a jar of dirt that represents the power of manure could exist in the Realms anyway.;)
-Because that's not how the metaphysics of the setting work. I didn't know we were arguing, though.
-Because that's not how the metaphysics of the setting work. I didn't know we were arguing, though.
Karsus, we're always arguing. Who really gives a bull about metaphysics when the ones who are controlling it all have the personalities of 9-year-olds.
By the way, 4E clerics do have to choose a deity.
are you rubbing it in again?
Karsus, we're always arguing.
-Not really.
are you rubbing it in again?
-Not this time, I don't think. A different inflection.
Correction. 4E clerics have to choose a faith. Read Clerics and Deities on pg 61 again.
Quoting:
Sometimes clerics are devoted to churches that venerate groups of deities or even philosophies.
Moreover your prayers are powered by your investiture as a cleric of your church, not by the object of your faith.
Actually, the text does say most of the time, clerics choose a deity, and for all practical purposes it discusses the cleric PC's deity (ie. "You must choose a deity that shares your alignment or is unaligned", etc.). I don't see how "picking a faith" is THAT different from "picking a deity" off the list--it yields the same result. In other words, I think you're nitpicking a bit.
BTW, the article on paladins says they must choose a deity.
Actually, the text does say most of the time, clerics choose a deity, and for all practical purposes it discusses the cleric PC's deity (ie. "You must choose a deity that shares your alignment or is unaligned", etc.). I don't see how picking a faith is THAT different from picking a deity off the list--it yields the same result.
BTW, the article on paladins says they must choose a deity.
Yeah, I guess I'm confusing Core Clerics with Eberron clerics and Shugenjus. But that idea that any idea can be given divinity from your belief is a good one and one I would like to be incorperated in any campaigns I'm involved in.
Yeah, I guess I'm confusing Core Clerics with Eberron clerics and Shugenjus. But that idea that any idea can be given divinity from your belief is a good one and one I would like to be incorperated in any campaigns I'm involved in.
-All hail Ham, Prince of the Pork, Lord of the Loin, Regent of the Rib.
-All hail Ham, Prince of the Pork, Lord of the Loin, Regent of the Rib.
Yeah, don't diss Uncle HillPiggy, or else I'll cast a spell that will make you wanna have intercourse with your sister.
Actually, the text does say most of the time, clerics choose a deity, and for all practical purposes it discusses the cleric PC's deity (ie. "You must choose a deity that shares your alignment or is unaligned", etc.). I don't see how "picking a faith" is THAT different from "picking a deity" off the list--it yields the same result. In other words, I think you're nitpicking a bit.
BTW, the article on paladins says they must choose a deity.
I think it is mainly the effect of the PHB providing specific deities and implying a cosmology were people worship said deities. On the very next sentence it says that paladins must choose a faith. In short the terms are used interchangeably.
I think it is mainly the effect of the PHB providing specific deities and implying a cosmology were people worship said deities. On the very next sentence it says that paladins must choose a faith. In short the terms are used interchangeably.
True enough.
I do wonder, are there any deities people will not miss if they snuff it?
-Specific ones that have already been killed, such as many in the Dwarven pantheon, I don't really care for. The the things that make me negative on the subject is that:
(A) They are doing things for the reason they are doing things.
(B) The "stories" behind the deaths of these deities.
The the things that make me negative on the subject is that:
(A) They are doing things for the reason they are doing things.
(B) The "stories" behind the deaths of these deities.
Agreed.
There really are no gods that I would love to see killed off. Eventually, I might have use for ones I'm not interested in now, and even if I don't care about a god, someone else out there does.
They should get rid of Cyric completely, and de-emphasize Shar.
-I agree with de-emphasizing Shar, in that not every evil thing that exists has to be somehow related to her. She is one of the preeminent evils, but...
-I agree with de-emphasizing Shar, in that not every evil thing that exists has to be somehow related to her. She is one of the preeminent evils, but...
Well, here's my logic on a death sentence for Cyric -
Cyric not only murdered Mystra and induced the Spellplague, but one of the after-effects of 'plague was to reduce all godly realms in size from infinite to finite. In some cases, that's going from an infinite realm to one that's the size of a small city (per Rich Baker, see his "ask" thread).
Given the cataclysmic damage involved to all of the planes, it makes no sense to me that -all- the deities, good and evil combined, didn't impose a death sentence for Cyric. He instead gets a hand-slapping of 1000 years (?) and can still do pretty much anything he wants through proxies and intermediaries.
Cyric's continued activity is a threat to every deity. Some might say that this is acceptable within the context of his portfolio (as it includes "madness"), but why the evil deities didn't want him ganked is curious in the extreme.
Shar should get the mild punishment of 1000 years imprisonment, as she was an accomplice to the murder and all the accessory damage.
Well, regarding the core gods, not every race has a "patron deity". Also, there isn't an elven or dwarven version of every "regular" god (for example, there's no specifically "dwarven" god of beauty and spring).
Ah, but that isn't true. If you think like a Dwarf, that is. Beauty for a dwarf is a very different thing (just look at the average dwarven woman...). Beauty is all about craftsmanship and ingenuity and effort - there are plenty of gods of the forge, of mining, of wealth, of prosperity. Spring is about seasons, which seldom apply underground, so there isn't a reason to worship that or plead to a higher power. In terms of spring bringing change we can again look to gods of fortune, wealth, fertility.
The reality is that a Dwarf that is heavily into typical outdoor nature is an anomaly, and it is perfectly ok that they can't find a Dwarven god that fits their needs. That's a sound reality, and they can either be a follower of a typical god that likes nature or they can worship a non-dwarven god. (The horror, the horror).
Teos, player of a Dwur ranger follower of Obad-Hai in LG
Ah, but that isn't true. If you think like a Dwarf, that is. Beauty for a dwarf is a very different thing (just look at the average dwarven woman...). Beauty is all about craftsmanship and ingenuity and effort - there are plenty of gods of the forge, of mining, of wealth, of prosperity. Spring is about seasons, which seldom apply underground, so there isn't a reason to worship that or plead to a higher power. In terms of spring bringing change we can again look to gods of fortune, wealth, fertility.
The reality is that a Dwarf that is heavily into typical outdoor nature is an anomaly, and it is perfectly ok that they can't find a Dwarven god that fits their needs. That's a sound reality, and they can either be a follower of a typical god that likes nature or they can worship a non-dwarven god. (The horror, the horror).
-I believe she is talking about portfolios.
Though the way I'm thinking other races tend to look at romance and love, I'm not really sure it'd be that necessary for some of them. Dwarves and gnomes seem more interested in the person and their 'inner qualities', rather than the more aesthetic inclinations of elves and humans. Cultural beliefs shaping the pantheon sort of thing I'd tend to rationalize it as.
Ah, but that isn't true. If you think like a Dwarf, that is. Beauty for a dwarf is a very different thing (just look at the average dwarven woman...). Beauty is all about craftsmanship and ingenuity and effort - there are plenty of gods of the forge, of mining, of wealth, of prosperity. Spring is about seasons, which seldom apply underground, so there isn't a reason to worship that or plead to a higher power. In terms of spring bringing change we can again look to gods of fortune, wealth, fertility.
The reality is that a Dwarf that is heavily into typical outdoor nature is an anomaly, and it is perfectly ok that they can't find a Dwarven god that fits their needs. That's a sound reality, and they can either be a follower of a typical god that likes nature or they can worship a non-dwarven god. (The horror, the horror).
Do bear in mind that dwarves aren't really underground dwellers anymore in 4E.
Yes, I was talking about portfolios, and specifically about the "core deity" portfolios (so Sharindlar doesn't apply).
Do bear in mind that dwarves aren't really underground dwellers anymore in 4E.
and still you're rubbing it in
and still you're rubbing it in
Yes.:P
Kinda like the budwieser frogs?
-Dwarves are like amphibians.
ooooo-kaaay. Lord Karsus is cut off
ooooo-kaaay. Lord Karsus is cut off
-Cut off from what?
-Cut off from what?
Weird jokes? Reserve those for us necromancers.
-Cut off from what?
liquor
Weird jokes? Reserve those for us necromancers.
-Feh, those are a staple of my posting habits.
liquor
-I don't believe that if I had imbibed high quantities of alcohol, I'd be posting here. I definitely wouldn't be able to write 'amphibians', anyway.
-Anyway, the Orc pantheon isn't talked about very much. What is the general consensus with them? Biting the dust?
-Anyway, the Orc pantheon isn't talked about very much. What is the general consensus with them? Biting the dust?
Probably just being reduced to Exarch status for the most part. Except for Gruumsh, not a damn one of them is above the rank of Lesser God.
Probably just being reduced to Exarch status for the most part. Except for Gruumsh, not a damn one of them is above the rank of Lesser God.
-That's what I figure.
Yutruss must persevere though!
-Unless, of course, Yurtruss never existed, and was simply a mask that Jergal has been wearing all of this time to his Orc worshippers...
Talona got her own novel relatively recently though... though with their love of all things Netherese lately, Jergal has a decent shot at it.
which novel?
which novel?
-Lady of Poison. Wasn't really recent, though. It's a couple of years old, now. That was the first (I believe) book in The Priests series.
-Lady of Poison. Wasn't really recent, though. It's a couple of years old, now. That was the first (I believe) book in The Priests series.
ah. That wasn't recent and I read it awhile back. Thats the one with the priest of Lurue and his sidekick from Osse, right?
ah. That wasn't recent and I read it awhile back. Thats the one with the priest of Lurue and his sidekick from Osse, right?
-Right.
Do bear in mind that dwarves aren't really underground dwellers anymore in 4E.
I'm not sure I follow. PHB says "carved from the bedrock of the universe", "share many qualities with the rock they love", "the carved structures of their mountain homes". The MM says "creatures of the earth", live _in_ the mountains of the world", "fortress-cities among the peaks, under which they delve into the earth".
Can you share where this change in dwarves being surface dwellers comes from? It doesn't seem clear from the PHB or MM.
Thanks!
Can you share where this change in dwarves being surface dwellers comes from? It doesn't seem clear from the PHB or MM.
Thanks!
-As I said, Dwarves are "amphibians". In the Forgotten Realms, they have lived above ground, and under the ground.
now dwarves don't live inside the mountains but on top of the mountains now, is this true in FR?
-Like I said, that's gonna be a doozy to explain.
No Darkvision means that their cities are now built on the surface. Certainly still against mountains and fortified locations, but no longer do they maintain great underground complexes since they depend on sunlight.
That just means they need a light source. It doesn't mean they don't live underground.
I'll drop the topic. I was just curious if this was a for sure thing. It doesn't sound like it is. Whew. I can go back to being a normal rock-loving dwarf!
I doubt it'll be any harder to explain then all the races that had infravision suddenly not having infravision.
-This was never explained. That said, Infravision to Darkvision is vastly different from Darkvision to no Darkvision. In the first scenario, vision in utter darkness was still possible, albeit different. The second, not so much.
I'm not sure I follow. PHB says "carved from the bedrock of the universe", "share many qualities with the rock they love", "the carved structures of their mountain homes". The MM says "creatures of the earth", live _in_ the mountains of the world", "fortress-cities among the peaks, under which they delve into the earth".
Can you share where this change in dwarves being surface dwellers comes from? It doesn't seem clear from the PHB or MM.
Thanks!
Sure. I agree, the PHB isn't as clear about it as the preview material (specifically Races and Classes) is. R&C is adamant that dwarves are considered surface-dwellers, even though they are still interested in mining. They live in mountain cities, but these cities have plenty of windows and shafts letting light in, because 4E dwarves cannot see in darkness. When they mine, they actually need lanterns. Dwarven cities are also more on the surface--when approaching a dwarven city, you do not only see a door carved into the mountainside, you actually see a city.
In other words, dwarves aren't quite as subterranian as they used to be.
That just means they need a light source. It doesn't mean they don't live underground.
I'll drop the topic. I was just curious if this was a for sure thing. It doesn't sound like it is.
It is a sure thing. Everything I said was true. That being said, you can do things how you want in your own campaign.
-This was never explained.
And the fabric of reality didn't shatter as a result. It certainly won't happen now that dwarves need torches and windows. :P
And the fabric of reality didn't shatter as a result. It certainly won't happen now that dwarves need torches and windows. :P
-But, as I said, going from one form of seeing in the dark to another form of seeing in the dark is far less drastic than going from seeing in the dark to never being able to have seen in the dark. The continuity problem, with Narbondel, in Menzoberranzan? A pittance, compared to what this is going to cause.
Annoying Voice: "Why are there Dwarven cities underground, if they can't see in the dark? Torches? Where's all the oxygen come from? Blah, blah, blah..."
Not really called for, but it was a cheap shot I didn't feel like passing up. There, I'm better now.
Honestly though, its a very illogical move considering past lore that makes a lot of what we know of old dungeons very strange to say the least... Undermountain in particular raises some odd problems considering its dwarven origins... though maybe that could be justified with the surface dwarven buildings gettings trashed when the elves went away and razed the city behind them, but that certainly makes the elves out to be even bigger pricks than usual... which I'm somewhat in favor of in principle just to spite the elf-lovers around here, but that's going a bit far even for me.
-Unless the sudden death of a whole lot of the Mordinsamman is somehow tied into all of it...
Don't even joke about that . . .
Don't even joke about that . . .
-Half of the Dwarven pantheons gets arbitrarily wacked, and the Dwarves suddenly don't have any Darkvision, even though established lore has them delving deep into the Underdark and such, which bars massive retcons. Sounds like the only realistic way to explain it to be.
Bel
Sunrods, glow stones and light spells?
-Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of those. Good thing there aren't too many Dwarven Wizards, to cast Dispel on all of those things on April Fools Day.
-Unless the sudden death of a whole lot of the Mordinsamman is somehow tied into all of it...
I fear something terrible has happened to Dumathoin!
I fear something terrible has happened to Dumathoin!
-Dumathoin, maybe not, but Laduger, Deep Duerra, Gorm Gulthyn and Haela Brightaxe are biting the big one.
Laduguer and Deep Duerra are not part of the Mordinsamman.
-Incorrect. They both are. Faiths and Pantheons/Faiths and Avatars goes out of it's way to tell us that, though evil, they were never "exiled" from the pantheon, like Lolth was from the Seldarine.
Sure. I agree, the PHB isn't as clear about it as the preview material (specifically Races and Classes) is.
Ah, I had not seen that monstrosity! Wow! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pr/20071218a takes you to the download for the pdf.
The article makes it clear that, as with female dwarves with beards, they totally are making a change because they believe it is best. In the new vision, dwarves live on and under mountains, but not primarily underground. I don't get why they really felt this was necessary, but hey, it is what it is. Shame.
Given the change, then yeah, dwarves should have deities like all the rest, including dwarves of traditional beauty, agriculture, etc. How very... boring.
Thanks for setting us straight, Rinonalyrna! Better to know than not to know, even if i don't like it. Hey, at least I'm not a huge fan of wood elves.
Here's a quote from the material:
"One way in which the new edition’s dwarves deviate from
old stereotypes is that these dwarves build surface cities with
underground sections. Many factors necessitated this move,
from the look of the D&D world to minor thematic elements in
the dwarf race.
In designing the look of the D&D world, we wanted player
characters to be able to see dwarf cities as grand edifices
among the peaks and canyons, not just as a door in a mountainside.
Sure, plenty of dwarves live in subterranean chambers.
But since dwarves can’t see in the dark, those magnificent halls
are lit with streaming sunlight from windows to the outside
and ventilated with fresh surface air. The dwarves might dig
deep in the earth for precious materials, but even their mines
are aglow with lantern light. As such, even dwarf delves are
accessible to all characters.
With surface settlements, dwarves can grow their own
crops and raise their own livestock. They don’t need to rely
on lowland sources for grain (and beer!), nor do they need to
rely on contrived underground animals for all that meat they
love to feast on. Dwarf towns are places characters can visit
and even sneak into (try that with a small gate in a mountainside).
Dwarves seem more a part of the world when they’re not
sequestered in underground halls."
Thanks for setting us straight, Rinonalyrna! Better to know than not to know, even if i don't like it. Hey, at least I'm not a huge fan of wood elves.
You're welcome.
I have to admit that I'm fine with a new conception of dwarves and would definitely use it in a different setting, even though I probably wouldn't change the dwarves in the FR. That's because I believe there is no "One Right Way to Do Things" that applies to every single fantasy setting.
I can understand why some people can't get behind the new design principles, though.
As I said before, don't change stuff in your own games if you don't want to.[INDENT]WHY WE CHANGED THE GODS
—Matt Sernett
The gods presented in the 3rd Edition Player’s Handbook
originated in the GREYHAWK Campaign Setting. It might
seem odd to tell you that if you’ve been playing D&D for 10
or more years, but if you started playing during 3rd Edition
you could easily have missed the GREYHAWK setting or not
know much about it. GREYHAWK was the original setting
used by Gary Gygax for his home games. I mention that
because it shows how long ago those gods were designed.
We didn’t move forward in 4th Edition with that pantheon
because its deities weren’t designed for the improved
experience of D&D we were forming. Also, its ties to Greyhawk
and its uses in 3E wouldn’t sync up with the new
cosmology and mythology we’ve designed to be better for
play. We struggled with what deities to put in the game for a
long time, and many factors influenced our final decisions:
• We don’t want deities to be thought of as
omniscient and all-powerful. Omniscience and omnipotence
makes it difficult to use gods in adventure plots
or have them interact with characters.
• We want epic characters to be capable of challenging
gods and even of becoming gods.
• We wanted deities to be designed for play in the
D&D world. Sure, it’s realistic in a sociological sense
to have a deity of doorways or of agriculture, but it’s
hard to figure out how a cleric who worships such a
deity honors his god by going on adventures.
• We wanted fewer, better deities. In your campaign,
you can have as many deities as you want, but in order to
design classes, a cosmology, and products that work well
together, we wanted a good set of deities that cover most
players’ needs without that pantheon being too complex
and cumbersome.
• We wanted deities to represent the new game and
new vision for the D&D world.
For a long time we wanted to design a pantheon that
was wholly new, but the harder we pushed it in that
direction, the more it seemed like some of the deities of
the 3E pantheon were a good fit for the game’s needs.
Thus, the pantheon is a blending of old and new.[/INDENT]
- Gods should be thought of as extremely and unbelievably powerful, and therefore far beyond the abilities of mortals IMO. Even extremely high level mortals. It's one thing to have a legendary or epic character. It's another thing entirely to confronting gods on their own planes.
- The general interest of gods and their faithful in adventure plots are absolutely fine, but day-to-day "direct communication" and being able to "challenge their power" directly is going way too far. Most of the time, if not all of the time, the gods should be relatively distant from PCs and adventures IMO, and communicate through signs, portents, dreams and other indirect means. Adventures should be more about the PCs, and mortal concerns, than the deities and the concerns of the heavens (or hells). Gods, and demons/devils for that matter, should be something different and alien, an order of magnitude (if not more) away from mortals. They are after all, theoretically, gods and not just really powerful NPCs. Any direct communication with a deity, like having one talk to a PC, should be a nearly consciousness-shattering thing, certainly an incredibly special and once in a lifetime event.
- Challenging a deity directly should be a one-in-a-million type of adventure, for very unusual reasons (maybe 0.001% of adventures, if that), not something that's theoretically an option for every PC from day one. Imagine the lvl 1 pc: "someday, I'll rule in the heavens, you'll SEE!"... that's just stupid, IMO. But not with the 4E design philosophy, which basically means the only difference now between a lvl 1 PC and a god is a difference in power.
- "Fewer and better" is a value judgment, and the Realms have not ever necessarily been about what's "better" or "super cool" for the combat rules but rather more along the lines of traditional medieval fantasy, and a bit of realism. Pantheons that are complex and large encourage diversity in play, and are not cumbersome in any Realms game I've ever played.
- WotC 4E designers have a vision, all right. It's not one that I'm happy with, though, because it takes a good deal of the play environment and -original- philosophy behind the Forgotten Realms and throws it completely out the window. They didn't make these changes for the fans, they made them for the rules, and that's not going to please anyone except low-roleplaying, rules-oriented, combat grid enthusiasts.
The article makes it clear that, as with female dwarves with beards, they totally are making a change because they believe it is best. In the new vision, dwarves live on and under mountains, but not primarily underground. I don't get why they really felt this was necessary, but hey, it is what it is. Shame.
Given the change, then yeah, dwarves should have deities like all the rest, including dwarves of traditional beauty, agriculture, etc. How very... boring.
-Note, all of that is in relation to "Core D&D". While unlikely, given the interchangeability the designers are shooting for, the Forgotten Realms could have a very different take on things.
- WotC 4E designers have a vision, all right. It's not one that I'm happy with, though, because it takes a good deal of the play environment and -original- philosophy behind the Forgotten Realms and throws it completely out the window. They didn't make these changes for the fans, they made them for the rules, and that's not going to please anyone except low-roleplaying, rules-oriented, combat grid enthusiasts.
No they did not make these changes with the fans in mind. Certainly not the longtime ones. They made the changes for the Rules and the new "one core to rule them all" philosophy that frankly sucks
They made the changes for the Rules and the new "one core to rule them all" philosophy that frankly sucks
-I have no problem with using the same rules all over the place, so to speak, but I don't like how things that are already established are (seemingly) go to be forcibly changed and retconned and so on, to force uniformity.
That's because I believe there is no "One Right Way to Do Things" that applies to every single fantasy setting.
No, but some things really work. Races being different, with different cultures... that really works in a campaign setting. (Dark Sun is a great example of this, where traditional races had NEW rich distinctions). When we watched Lord of the Rings and saw the dwarven halls... that totally registered with what we expect for dwarves. It felt so right. It is something so vastly different than what humans would do. And that difference makes you want to see, and to experience, and to adventure. Elven haughtiness and homes made from living trees work the same way. Halfling burrows and their socialist communal living and sense of humor. Need I mention tinker gnomes? Those are great ways to establish setting.
By reducing these differences in race we get... ??? I don't know what we get. I honestly think we get less. 4E is very different, and it really works for game play. It fails on setting and imagination. Now, sure, any old school DM and players can inject setting back into the game, but it is simply a loss that I can't understand. When you had the 1st edition PHB you pored over names like Otiluke and Tenser and wondered who they were. You read the magical items section and dreamed of the tidbits of lore found in the descriptions, making the connections between gods and mortals, time and geography, the changes of nations. Read the magic item descriptions - there is no reason why we couldn't get more than a M:tG quote with each item. And I don't buy that they had to throw together gods that have such clear iconic roles with older settings into completely new roles. Just create new gods, and make a new core pantheon! It's weak, sorry. I'm very positive on a lot of 4E, but the dumb-ing down of the game seems needless. The mechanics could coexist along with rich and imaginative descriptions, pantheons that make sense, and races that have lasting iconic imagery.
No, but some things really work. Races being different, with different cultures... that really works in a campaign setting.
That hasn't changed in 4E.
Elven haughtiness and homes made from living trees work the same way. Halfling burrows and their socialist communal living and sense of humor. Need I mention tinker gnomes? Those are great ways to establish setting.
Well, in my experience tinker gnomes definitely aren't universally loved. Same goes for the other stuff you mentioned, believe it or not. My point is, different strokes for different folks. Not all campaign settings need to use the same exact (often cliched) tropes.
By reducing these differences in race we get... ??? I don't know what we get.
Again, I disagree that the net result of all the racial changes is races that have "reduced differences". I think there are positive results of some of the changes, such as seeing grand dwarven cities on the mountaintops instead of one nondescript door carved in the mountainside (as mentioned above).
I honestly think we get less. 4E is very different, and it really works for game play. It fails on setting and imagination.
4E rules certainly don't fail in either of those respects. The rulebooks are based on certain design principles, but they even mention that the DM should feel free to change those principles to something else. And how on earth does any ruleset prevent one from using their imagination?
And I don't buy that they had to throw together gods that have such clear iconic roles with older settings into completely new roles. Just create new gods, and make a new core pantheon! It's weak, sorry.
Well, many of the gods are NOT new. I think they did a good job with the new pantheon. If you don't like it, you certainly are free to create your own.
The mechanics could coexist along with rich and imaginative descriptions, pantheons that make sense, and races that have lasting iconic imagery.
Yes they could, and in my opinion they do.
And while some of the old fluff that was discarded was certainly well loved and in some cases with good reason (though in many cases was just well loved because of tradition and ingrained D&D concepts on the heads of players) I believe a lot of the new fluff is very inspired; especially concerning the new cosmology and the two coexistent planes (Shadowfell and Feywild).
But to return to the topic
I do not think that they plan to replace FR deities with Core deities. Nothing we have seen or been told has suggested so. We may loose deities, see some demoted or somewhat changed, maybe even see someone that has ascended, but there is a limit to core integration I believe the developers are not planning to cross.
I do not think that they plan to replace FR deities with Core deities. Nothing we have seen or been told has suggested so. We may loose deities, see some demoted or somewhat changed, maybe even see someone that has ascended, but there is a limit to core integration I believe the developers are not planning to cross.
-Indeed, they are not. Every designer/author has indicated that this isn't going to be happening.
I'm pretty fond of the Eladrin cities which vanish into the Feywild, myself.
Me too.
Me too.
Its an interesting thing. Reminds me of Krull
Anything related to Krull is automatically full of win.
Just as long as I don't have to watch the Emerald Seer kill himself via some sort of ****-erotic strangle scene again -shiver-
Well, here's the design philosophy for the gods (and clerics), straight from WotC's mouth. How much of it is completely inconsistent with the Realms, or how much of it "rules and is better!" (WotC's words, not mine), is something every customer will have to judge:
[INDENT]WHY WE CHANGED THE GODS
—Matt Sernett
The gods presented in the 3rd Edition Player’s Handbook
originated in the GREYHAWK Campaign Setting. It might
seem odd to tell you that if you’ve been playing D&D for 10
or more years, but if you started playing during 3rd Edition
you could easily have missed the GREYHAWK setting or not
know much about it. GREYHAWK was the original setting
used by Gary Gygax for his home games. I mention that
because it shows how long ago those gods were designed.
We didn’t move forward in 4th Edition with that pantheon
because its deities weren’t designed for the improved
experience of D&D we were forming. Also, its ties to Greyhawk
and its uses in 3E wouldn’t sync up with the new
cosmology and mythology we’ve designed to be better for
play. We struggled with what deities to put in the game for a
long time, and many factors influenced our final decisions:
• We don’t want deities to be thought of as
omniscient and all-powerful. Omniscience and omnipotence
makes it difficult to use gods in adventure plots
or have them interact with characters.
• We want epic characters to be capable of challenging
gods and even of becoming gods.
• We wanted deities to be designed for play in the
D&D world. Sure, it’s realistic in a sociological sense
to have a deity of doorways or of agriculture, but it’s
hard to figure out how a cleric who worships such a
deity honors his god by going on adventures.
• We wanted fewer, better deities. In your campaign,
you can have as many deities as you want, but in order to
design classes, a cosmology, and products that work well
together, we wanted a good set of deities that cover most
players’ needs without that pantheon being too complex
and cumbersome.
• We wanted deities to represent the new game and
new vision for the D&D world.
For a long time we wanted to design a pantheon that
was wholly new, but the harder we pushed it in that
direction, the more it seemed like some of the deities of
the 3E pantheon were a good fit for the game’s needs.
Thus, the pantheon is a blending of old and new.[/INDENT]
Is there a class such as Godslayer?
Is there a class such as Godslayer?
-Nope.
Is there a class such as Godslayer?
Yes, theoretically -every- class in the 4E is a god-slayer. Because of this:
[INDENT]• We want epic characters to be capable of challenging
gods and even of becoming gods.[/INDENT]
They've also said that killing a god is a once-in-a-campaign event, and would be the culmination of a long and involved plotline in which you perform several quests, attain the proper magic items, if the stars align right, etc. If that's the way you want your campaign to end, then you can maybe kill one. You're not going to be working your way down the list, though.
-That's dependent on campaigns. But, campaigns in which people have randomly killed everything are nothing new, so...
They've also said that killing a god is a once-in-a-campaign event, and would be the culmination of a long and involved plotline in which you perform several quests, attain the proper magic items, if the stars align right, etc. If that's the way you want your campaign to end, then you can maybe kill one. You're not going to be working your way down the list, though.
C'mon... you know that if one PC gets to become a god, then all the other PCs will pretty much demand the same thing.
C'mon... you know that if one PC gets to become a god, then all the other PCs will pretty much demand the same thing.
I am sorry but this simply means you have a horrible DM. People could kill deities or become deities at epic levels on every edition of D&D. Second edition had a lot of rules on becoming a deity or slaying one. 3E gave gods statistics. 4E simply recognizes a very common interest among players at the epic tier and gave them a way to accomplish it with the Demigod EpD. And considering that in 4E after you complete your epic destiny quest your character is retired automatically, it is actually of a lot less interest to the munchkins.
I am sorry but this simply means you have a horrible DM. People could kill deities or become deities at epic levels on every edition of D&D. Second edition had a lot of rules on becoming a deity or slaying one. 3E gave gods statistics. 4E simply recognizes a very common interest among players at the epic tier and gave them a way to accomplish it with the Demigod EpD. And considering that in 4E after you complete your epic destiny quest your character is retired automatically, it is actually of a lot less interest to the munchkins.
Heh, I never said that I allowed for such a thing in my campaigns. And I don't. But once you give one of the players something "cool", the others will want the benefit of the same options for their characters. It's only human nature.
I still don't see the fault in an epic tier adventurer ascending or slaying a god if as suggest he takes immense effort in doing so. It is one of the quintessential epic adventures.
Quintessential? Really?
C'mon... you know that if one PC gets to become a god, then all the other PCs will pretty much demand the same thing.
...what does that have to do with what I said?
Heh, I never said that I allowed for such a thing in my campaigns. And I don't. But once you give one of the players something "cool", the others will want the benefit of the same options for their characters. It's only human nature.
-In one of the first campaigns I was in, the DM allowed one character to become the "Avatar" (In reality, is was akin to a Chosen status) of his deity, rather than have his character die. It was basically a "If you don't accept this proposal, you die" situation, as his character had technically died, being as that he dropped below -10 HP in combat. He accepted, and came back empowered, being an "Avatar"/Chosen.
-By the time that campaign was over, the group of five consisted of three "Avatars"/Chosen.
...what does that have to do with what I said?
Just pointing out a natural consequence of letting players confront and kill gods: that if one player gets to do this and ascends to become a deity, the other PCs will usually want the same thing for their characters.
-In one of the first campaigns I was in, the DM allowed one character to become the "Avatar" (In reality, is was akin to a Chosen status) of his deity, rather than have his character die. It was basically a "If you don't accept this proposal, you die" situation, as his character had technically died, being as that he dropped below -10 HP in combat. He accepted, and came back empowered, being an "Avatar"/Chosen.
-By the time that campaign was over, the group of five consisted of three "Avatars"/Chosen.
It's human nature to want the same options for oneself, really. Once you open the gates, either to god-killling, special powers, or unique artifact-level items, it is only natural that the other players will ask for the same thing. To deny them after the point one has "let the genie out" is unfair.
It's human nature to want the same options for oneself, really. Once you open the gates, either to god-killling, special powers, or unique artifact-level items, it is only natural that the other players will ask for the same thing. To deny them after the point one has "let the genie out" is unfair.
-Yes, I know. I was citing this example to support/bolster your claim.
-Anyway, in the Forgotten Realms, cannot kill a deity without the support of another deity. And then, of course, one cannot ascend to divinity without taking hold of a free portfolio, and then receiving Ao's permission (and, I'm not sure if this is a must or not, but one needs also to have the support of a preexisting deity as well).
The thing is that in 4E after this happens your character just gets retired. You never get to use the benefit.
Theory is always nice, but I suspect that the reality is quite different.
-Yes, I know. I was citing this example to support/bolster your claim.
Yep, I know.
Theory is always nice, but I suspect that the reality is quite different.
Well it is not exactly theory. It is the rule. An actual rule at the PHB. Once a 30th level character completes his destiny quest he is automatically retired.
Theory is always nice, but I suspect that the reality is quite different.
That's what Epic Destinies are for. Every PC will have their own. If you want your PC to become a god, then simply choose the Demigod Paragon Path.
Well it is not exactly theory. It is the rule. An actual rule at the PHB. Once a 30th level character completes his destiny quest he is automatically retired.
Yep. You can't even play a god under the rules, as there are no rules supporting that. And the rules state that if/when you achieve godhood you're out of the game. And as I mentioned before, there's nothing in the rules that supports the notion that killing a god in a campaign will make one of the characters a god themselves. From the looks of it, killing a god does nothing more then net you some XP and maybe treasure. There is nothing about gaining godhood from the act, so you're not going to have a situation where the party is going to want to go around killing gods in order for everyone to become a god.
Well it is not exactly theory. It is the rule. An actual rule at the PHB. Once a 30th level character completes his destiny quest he is automatically retired.
Bringing it back to a more Realmsy discussion, doesn't that ascended character become part of the Realms pantheon at that point, though, and continue to have an impact on the game world (regardless of retirement)? Or is it a rule also that the entire game is re-set at that point, and everyone starts over?
If you run a long-standing game world like the Realms, these kinds of things tend to have a lasting and huge impact, regardless of "retirement". They are RSEs within one's own campaign world, if not for canon. And we know how everyone loves RSEs...
Bringing it back to a more Realmsy discussion, doesn't that ascended character become part of the Realms pantheon at that point, though, and continue to have an impact on the game world (regardless of retirement)?
As an Exarch that works for a more powerful god? Sure. But no moreso then any other retired NPC's, like the Archmage NPC who runs a wizard school, now. They're all retired NPC's, under the control of the DM, and have as much effect on the world as the DM and the players want them to have.
If you run a long-standing game world like the Realms, these kinds of things tend to have a lasting and huge impact, regardless of "retirement". They are RSEs within one's own campaign world, if not for canon. And we know how everyone loves RSEs...
These aren't RSE's. In the grand scale of things, Sune picking up a new Exarch or a new wizard school opening up under the distant eye of a powerful Archmage is hardly realms shaking. And even if they were, it's not the same as a published RSE, as this is stuff the players and the DM's themselves wanted in their game.
These aren't "RSE's". In the grand scale of things, Sune picking up a new Exarch or a new wizard school opening up under the distant eye of a powerful Archmage is hardly realms shaking. And even if they were, this is hardly on the plane of "a RSE forced on the players group", as this is stuff the players and the DM's themselves wanted in their game.
Sorry, but I think a PC ascending to godhood qualifies as an RSE, and not at all on the same level as a wizard opening a school.
My point is that these are clearly made options for players in 4E. Sure, they were "possible" under the old rules -if- a DM allowed such, but here it's fundamentally different: it's an option from day one, much like choosing swords over axes for one's fighting style.
Personally, I think it has huge ramifications, particularly for the Realms. And sure, there are people out there who like those kinds of adventures. My only point really is that this is a fundamental shift in how one views the Realms and how one plays in it.
Sorry, but I think a PC ascending to godhood qualifies as an RSE, and not at all on the same level as a wizard opening a school.
The ascension of The Red Knight was Realms shaking?
My point is that these are clearly made options for players in 4E. Sure, they were "possible" under the old rules -if- a DM allowed such, but here it's fundamentally different: it's an option from day one, much like choosing swords over axes for one's fighting style.
And at the end of the day it has as much importance as you want it to have. You end your campaign and either you choose to make those events a part of your next campaign, or you don't. Simple.
Personally, I think it has huge ramifications, particularly for the Realms. And sure, there are people out there who like those kinds of adventures. My only point really is that this is a fundamental shift in how one views the Realms and how one plays in it.
Ramifications in what way? What happens at peoples gaming tables has no effect on the published Realms whatsoever.
The ascension of The Red Knight was Realms shaking?
And at the end of the day it has as much importance as you want it to have. You end your campaign and either you choose to make those events a part of your next campaign, or you don't. Simple.
Ramifications in what way? What happens at peoples gaming tables has no effect on the published Realms whatsoever.
Again, my point is that these are now options for every player from day one, and that big things like these have large, lasting effects on home campaign worlds regardless of canon (often, people run their campaign worlds for years).
In any case, I'm not going to argue about various levels of DM control that might or might not exist in my or any other campaign. I'm simply saying that these options allow for campaign impact that has never before been quite as commonly available. End of story, and I'm out.
Destiny Quests and Immortality
Groups that want a definite endpoint to their PCs’ adventures can use Destiny Quests as a springboard for showing how their 30th-level character eventually leaves the mortal world and ascends into the world of gods and legends. This type of endpoint obviously won’t appeal to all groups. Many DMs will have their own ideas of how their campaign should end. Other groups will prefer to keep their 30th-level characters around as options for high-level play. Therefore, the notes that appear in each of the epic destinies below are entirely optional. We present them mainly to help you get in the mood for what an epic character’s final destiny might look like, with the understanding that you or your DM might have other plans for your PC’s final destiny.
As for the effect on the world, most adventurers running around Faerun don't reach epic level. And out of those that do, not all of them have an "Epic Destiny". And ouf of those that do, not all of them are Demigods. And out of those who do become Demigods, not all of them manage to ascend, getting killed beforehand. And for those those who do ascend, well, there's The Red Knight and Torm. It hasn't happened a lot, and it won't happen a lot, but it does happen on occasion, and it has happened on occasion. In other words, business as usual.
-As for 'ramifications' in the Forgotten Realms...Novels mirror rules. Will we be seeing more decide in the future, in novels? Who knows? Maybe. Maybe not.
-I think I understand the underlying point that Therese is hinting at: The fact that characters can theoretically start out with the notion that, when everything is said and done in their game, they are going to be deities. I know, I have yet to create a character so ambitious. My current Forgotten Realms character has high ambitions to open a shop back in his home of Calimshan, or perhaps Tethyr. Probably Tethyr.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant, thanks.
My current Forgotten Realms character has high ambitions to open a shop back in his home of Calimshan, or perhaps Tethyr. Probably Tethyr.
selling what?
And thats on the other extreme. I dare say most charatcers have higher ambitions than that
-I think I understand the underlying point that Therese is hinting at: The fact that characters can theoretically start out with the notion that, when everything is said and done in their game, they are going to be deities. I know, I have yet to create a character so ambitious. My current Forgotten Realms character has high ambitions to open a shop back in his home of Calimshan, or perhaps Tethyr. Probably Tethyr.
-As for 'ramifications' in the Forgotten Realms...Novels mirror rules. Will we be seeing more decide in the future, in novels? Who knows? Maybe. Maybe not.
LK, I've gamed with players that have that ambition by 5th level, to be deities that is. They're called power gamers.
Bel
Red Knight, Finder, Kiransale, Velasharoon, Azuth, Torm (?), Savras. These are all mortals who became gods with no RSEs occuring afterwards. There is a big trend in FR that mortals can become gods so players in an FR game can start with a first level pc and have the idea that they will be a god someday and it can possibly happen. This is the Realms we are talking about.
On the other hand pcs having some ecletic dream like opening a shop or a school for wizards or a bard school in the North is a fine thing indeed. My pc wanted to start his own Merc company that would make money from the Blood Wars. He wanted to become immortal too, but not a god. That was too much of a headache and he had a better chance at staying alive as a mortal.;)
Red Knight, Finder, Kiransale, Velasharoon, Azuth, Torm (?), Savras. (...)
And none of those were PCs, so those don't matter with respect to the point I was making. You're not getting it, and I'm not going to bother trying to explain again.
Pcs turning wanting to be gods is not a recent development btw. From my talks with people that have palyed in most editions these concepts and adventures have been around from the start. Some just "fell into place" as part of the story and many are because players actively wanted to become gods.
If one of my players told me they wished this for their pc at any point during the campaign I would cringe. This is definitely not the type of game I would want to run.
If one of my players told me they wished this for their pc at any point during the campaign I would cringe. This is definitely not the type of game I would want to run.
Well, that's unfortunate, because it's in the Player's Handbook now as a fully viable option for everyone, just like "should I wield a sword or a dagger".
These kind of players exist. Some of us, heck maybe most of us, may find them extremely annoying. Still they are out there, and they are a solid niche. Ignoring them completely is not good design.
Hehe I remember once explaining Planescape to a few friends back then when it came out. One of them, the moment he heard that the Lady of Pain was stronger than deities while in Sigil, immediately began pestering me on how he could kill her . . .
These kind of players exist. Some of us, heck maybe most of us, may find them extremely annoying. Still they are out there, and they are a solid niche. Ignoring them completely is not good design.
I simply refuse to play with munchkinoid powergamers. They can go plug in their nintendo and enter all the cheat codes they want, and leave me and my game alone.
Well, that's unfortunate, because it's in the Player's Handbook now as a fully viable option for everyone, just like "should I wield a sword or a dagger".
Most games do not hit 20s or 30s. Why is it unfortunate?
-As for 'ramifications' in the Forgotten Realms...Novels mirror rules. Will we be seeing more decide in the future, in novels? Who knows? Maybe. Maybe not.
More deicide than during the last few published novels? I don't think the new FR pantheon will contain enough deities to trumph Lady Penitent anc Co. :D
And none of those were PCs, so those don't matter with respect to the point I was making. You're not getting it, and I'm not going to bother trying to explain again.
And a PC who ascends becomes an NPC and stops to matter. No real difference in telling the players at the beginning of FR Campain #2
Change compared to the start of FR Campaign #1:
a) This chick, called Red Knight, has ascended and can be selected as patron
b) Kelric, Peter's character as Campaign #1, has ascended and can be selected as patron
Since Kelric is now an NPC Peter has as little influence on how Kelric and his church develop as he has on how the Red Knight and her chruch develop
selling what?
And thats on the other extreme. I dare say most charatcers have higher ambitions than that
Damn, right. My character usually always wait for the one big haul to retire young and spend the rest of their days as self-made nobles (money can buy titles) in a luxurious mansion with fine food, alkohol, drugs and women
selling what?
-Magical wares. "Crazy Ali's Magical Wares".
And thats on the other extreme. I dare say most charatcers have higher ambitions than that
-Oh, pshh, I don't think that's extreme. In fact, none of the people I currently play with, or DM for, seem to have such "delusions of grandeur". If apotheosis was suddenly handed to any of us, I don't think anyone would refuse it, but it's not something that anyone seems to be activley looking for.
LK, I've gamed with players that have that ambition by 5th level, to be deities that is. They're called power gamers.
Bel
-Oh, okay.
More deicide than during the last few published novels? I don't think the new FR pantheon will contain enough deities to trumph Lady Penitent anc Co. :D
-You'd be surprise. World War I was thought of to be the "War To End All Wars", and we know just how good that worked out.
--Oh, pshh, I don't think that's extreme. In fact, none of the people I currently play with, or DM for, seem to have such "delusions of grandeur". If apotheosis was suddenly handed to any of us, I don't think anyone would refuse it, but it's not something that anyone seems to be activley looking for.
most aren't looking godhood but most are looking for more than opening up a shop
most aren't looking godhood but most are looking for more than opening up a shop
-Psshh, like that?
And a PC who ascends becomes an NPC and stops to matter. No real difference in telling the players at the beginning of FR Campain #2
Change compared to the start of FR Campaign #1:
a) This chick, called Red Knight, has ascended and can be selected as patron
b) Kelric, Peter's character as Campaign #1, has ascended and can be selected as patron
Since Kelric is now an NPC Peter has as little influence on how Kelric and his church develop as he has on how the Red Knight and her chruch develop
Alright, here's the thing... I'll try and explain again.
In games that are 1-shot or 5-shot adventures, where backstory is just there for minimum imagery and none of the teenage players really care about deeper details of interactions between the gods, how new deities and faiths will play out in the population of mortals and their feelings about it, then sure, it absolutely won't matter one bit. If you play an MMO and suddenly you get an infusion of Draenai and Blood Elves to make the game cooler, the cool factor is the most important thing. You can even retcon the crap out of everything and it won't really matter for play.
But for those who love lore, who roleplay far more than roll-play, and spend a great deal of time and effort detailing their campaigns such that their players love learning about all the details and ramifications of what happens, because they care about the relationships and history of the setting, it's critically important. We use the same campaign world for years and years, not just 2-3 adventures or even an adventure path. Years. We build on its history and generate our own lore. There's a reason why we love Ed Greenwood's regular contributions on how houses are constructed from different materials in one city versus another, why basements are common in one region but can't be built in another, and how minor interactions between the Harpers and the Zhents can influence a region for generations. If we care about minor details like housing materials, it might explain why we think a single new deity will have massive ramifications on the unfolding history and lore for not merely one region but for the world. Sure, Peter's character ascended, but how does that affect other churches in the area, not to mention the church of Peter's sponsor deity? How does it affect the every day commoner, who now has a new deity to worship, and how does Peter's new deity fit into the Realmsian cosmology and deific interactions? The "impact" doesn't simply stop when Peter's character is retired, because that character continues on in the campaign as not merely an NPC but a god who will have an impact on the history and setting to come. It's about the details, and lore enthusiasts put a great deal of attention toward these details.
Now, enter the fact in 4E that -every- PC has the option of going toward a deity-path as part of their epic destiny. Let's say five new deities because every one of your players wants to do the option as outlined in the Player's Handbook. Not some sideline supplement on epic play, but the Player's Handbook. Saying no becomes less trivial, less easy to do, because it really is a valid option for every player. Five new deities in my long-standing campaign world would mean essentially retooling the entire setting. New pantheon, new churches, new goals and concerns for mortals all across the entire face of Faerun. Look at how the Time of Troubles impacted the core canon FR setting and tell me that it didn't have massive changes in the day-to-day world of Faerunians.
But yeah, if you only play D&D for the combat and getting 2-3 adventures done before moving on to something else entirely, it doesn't matter at all. But you're not playing the same type of game.
-Psshh, like that?
Most adventurers can make more money and power through just adventuring than opening up a small or even a large buisness. Anyway not to say having modest goals is a bad thing. It definitely won't take high to mid levels to do though. Again I guess it depends on what type of shop it is goign to be and what the real estate is worth.;)
I can never see myself running a game past 20 though. I probably won't run enough games a week or month to do this, and it seems to me many other gamers around me have this same issue. The real world just becomes a hinderance in this regard. I like to build off past camapigns as well. Most games I have been in from FR have all stopped at 6th level. I have made references to old pcs in those games in the current one I run. The players enjoy hearing about what the old pcs now NPCs are up to. It seems to me though that players who reach 30 over and over again will be playing a very long time between each campaign so there will not be that many pc-gods in their campaigns. At least not all that often.
I can never see myself running a game past 20 though. I probably won't run enough games a week or month to do this, and it seems to me many other gamers around me have this same issue. The real world just becomes a hinderance in this regard. I like to build off past camapigns as well. Most games I have been in from FR have all stopped at 6th level. I have made references to old pcs in those games in the current one I run. The players enjoy hearing about what the old pcs now NPCs are up to. It seems to me though that players who reach 30 over and over again will be playing a very long time between each campaign so there will not be that many pc-gods in their campaigns. At least not all that often.
Well, if you never go beyond 20th lvl in 4E, it wouldn't really make a difference as nobody would ascend. =shrug= Again, I'm not speaking to anyone's personal game specifically, just the general issues that occur to me if people would, and how it might affect a longstanding campaign world.
Well, if you never go beyond 20th lvl in 4E, it wouldn't really make a difference as nobody would ascend. =shrug= Again, I'm not speaking to anyone's personal game specifically, just the general issues that occur to me if people would, and how it might affect a longstanding campaign world.
Gotcha. It would be problematic for camapign canon in a way if people were to hit 30 in 6months to a year and became a high level NPC each time.
If they played the max amount of campaigns they could fit into the numbe I just gave by 3 years they would have alot of high level or godlike figures running around their game. If that happened. I find on average (my own experiences with my games and heaing about others) that most games dissinergrate or just stop around 6th to 12th levels. Maybe 4E will change this.
On the other hand pcs having some ecletic dream like opening a shop or a school for wizards or a bard school in the North is a fine thing indeed. My pc wanted to start his own Merc company that would make money from the Blood Wars. He wanted to become immortal too, but not a god. That was too much of a headache and he had a better chance at staying alive as a mortal. ;)
I created a Cormyrean Purple Dragon Knight once. I thought trying to become the Baron of the Stonelands would be a fun goal.
Sure, Peter's character ascended, but how does that affect other churches in the area, not to mention the church of Peter's sponsor deity? How does it affect the every day commoner, who now has a new deity to worship, and how does Peter's new deity fit into the Realmsian cosmology and deific interactions? The "impact" doesn't simply stop when Peter's character is retired, because that character continues on in the campaign as not merely an NPC but a god who will have an impact on the history and setting to come. It's about the details, and lore enthusiasts put a great deal of attention toward these details.
In 4E terms, not as much of an effect as this. Exarchs/Demigods arent worshipped. They have no churches. In essence, they become equivalent to an angel in the service of that particular god, just more powerful and more important. And once again, the impact is precisely what you want it to be in your campaign. If you don't ever want to deal with it then simply say "No Demigod Epic Destiny". Four words solve that pretty easily. And as I posted before, in a direct quote from the PHB, those rules are optional.
Besides, if your campaign goes the distance all the way to level 30, and you want the events of that campaign to matter in the next campaign, then would adding two or three new Exarchs to the Faerunian Pantheon really be that big of a deal? Considering all the various changes that would've been caused by the players to the published Realms in 30 levels of adventuring, adding "Torm has a new Exarch in his service known as the Green Knight", isn't that big of a change (Just an example. I'm not interested in the Demigod Epic Destiny. Now that Eternal Hero one that was alluded to in that 3.5 article, however... :P).
Gotcha. It would be problematic for camapign canon in a way if people were to hit 30 in 6months to a year and became a high level NPC each time.
If they played the max amount of campaigns they could fit into the numbe I just gave by 3 years they would have alot of high level or godlike figures running around their game. If that happened. I find on average (my own experiences with my games and heaing about others) that most games dissinergrate or just stop around 6th to 12th levels. Maybe 4E will change this.
I think that's probably true, that most games fizzle after 12th or so, with respect to 3.5. Having done several epic games, the math for combat encounters became ... lengthy. They were still fun, but just really quite long. It's possible that 4E will indeed speed up high lvl and epic play. I can't really say much about that personally, as I've only played KotS so far. It seemed to go a lot faster, even though we were learning the new rules as we played. Watching that one video WotC put out recently, (lvl 17 or something, I think), combat seemed better but not hugely different than KotS (and they weren't used to their high level characters either).
If 4E really does end up speeding epic play, I could see many people being attracted to staying longer in campaigns and getting their characters to high level. Hard to say, though.
Exarchs/Demigods arent worshipped.
Whoops. They do get prayers. They don't get churches, though. At least not in the Realms. And they're more like saints then anything else.
In 4E terms, not as much of an effect as this. Exarchs/Demigods arent worshipped. They have no churches. In essence, they become equivalent to an angel in the service of that particular god, just more powerful and more important. And once again, the impact is precisely what you want it to be in your campaign. If you don't ever want to deal with it then simply say "No Demigod Epic Destiny". Four words solve that pretty easily. And as I posted before, in a direct quote from the PHB, those rules are optional.
Not fighting here... just continuing the discussion. If you read the 4E Player's Handbook, you'll note that becoming an Exarch happens while you're working toward your epic destiny, as the PC becomes a probationary Exarch during the process (possibly, not always). After completion of the grand (or final) campaign, the PC joins the sponsoring deity's pantheon and becomes part of it. That -might- mean "full" Exarch, but it might mean a great deal more. Particularly for the Realms, where the number of worshippers determines a deity's power (unless they've changed that also, I don't know).
And yeah, of course you or I can house-rule away anything you want in the basic rules. But I'm not speaking of specific campaigns, like mine or yours, I'm talking about what is generally available in the basic 4E rule set. I'm just trying to point out that this is a gigantic shift from prior editions, and I'm not upset about what will or won't happen in my own campaign. Maybe it sounds like I am, but it's not about that. I think I've mentioned before that I don't follow canon exactly (or even extremely closely), only just some things.
Besides, if your campaign goes the distance all the way to level 30, and you want the events of that campaign to matter in the next campaign, then would adding two or three new Exarchs to the Faerunian Pantheon really be that big of a deal? Considering all the various changes that would've been caused by the players to the published Realms in 30 levels of adventuring, adding "Torm has a new Exarch in his service known as the Green Knight", isn't that big of a change (Just an example. I'm not interested in the Demigod Epic Destiny. Now that Eternal Hero one that was alluded to in that 3.5 article, however... :P).
Yes, it would have a huge impact in my campaign. One that I wouldn't allow. But again, I'm not really talking about me, given that I don't follow canon exactly anyway. Heck, the Time of Troubles never happened in my campaign, much less something like the Spellplague. But this isn't really about my campaign per se, it's about the canon 4E Realms and that pantheon.
That -might- mean "full" Exarch, but it might mean a great deal more.
I doubt it'll mean more then that. If the likes of Clangeddin Silverbear, Deneir, the Red Knight, and Jergal are still shuffling around as Exarchs, then I doubt the new guy will be raised up to the rank of Lesser God. He's gotta get in line just like everybody else. ;)
I'm talking about what is generally available in the basic 4E rule set. I'm just trying to point out that this is a gigantic shift from prior editions, and I'm not upset about what will or won't happen in my own campaign. Maybe it sounds like I am, but it's not about that. I think I've mentioned before that I don't follow canon exactly (or even extremely closely), only just some things.
We'll have to agree to disagree here, then, because I don't think it'll have any impact on the published Realms at all. After all, they've gone through a lot of trouble to cull the pantheon to a smaller size, and reduce a great many gods to Exarch status. Those reduced to Exarch status are essentially becoming footnotes. They're not about to start adding a whole bunch more, and make them important.
Besides, we're not talking about things that haven't happened in the Realms, before. Mortals ascending to the rank of Exarch/Demigod has happened several times in the history of the Realms. But even if it happens, say, two or three more times in the canon Realms, those Exarchs will probably be relegated to the same obscurity that Clangeddin Silverbeard and all the rest have been relegated to.
Yes, it would have a huge impact in my campaign.
Don't see how, really. By the time the party hits 30th-level, they'll have doubtlessly caused a large number of changes to your version of the Realms. We are, after all, talking about characters who'll be roughly equivalent in power to people like Elminster, the Simbul, and Szass Tam. Let's put it another way. Say you got five players, and all five decide to go the Demigod route. So at the end of the campaign you end up with the following:
Rauric, Exarch of Mask
Diffan, Exarch of Torm
Stigger, Exarch of Selune
Karsus, Exarch of Amaunator
Rinonalyrna, Exarch of Sune
So your new campaign starts up, and the party Rogue offers up the occasional prayer to Rauric, Patron Saint of Wily Thieves, to intercede on his behalf with Mask in order to grant him favor in his next wily caper. Is that really such a big deal? At least in comparison to what those five did when they were active PC's (like, say, steamrolling the Cult of the Dragon til it was reduced to a greasy smear, or driving back the armies of Zhentil Keep from the Dalelands)? But as you say, you wouldn't allow it, so it doesn't really matter.
Whatever the case, I very much doubt it'll have any bearing whatsoever on the canon Realms. Especially considering the reduction of the number of gods and the relegation of most of them to Exarch obscurity.
I doubt it'll mean more then that. If the likes of Clangeddin Silverbear, Deneir, the Red Knight, and Jergal are still shuffling around as Exarchs, then I doubt the new guy will be raised up to the rank of Lesser God. He's gotta get in line just like everybody else. ;)
Maybe, it's hard to say. All campaigns are different. ;)
We'll have to agree to disagree here, then, (...)
I think that's true, we'll just agree to disagree, then. ;)
Whatever the case, I very much doubt it'll have any bearing whatsoever on the canon Realms. Especially considering the reduction of the number of gods and the relegation of most of them to Exarch obscurity.
Maybe that's part of it. I guess I'm not seeing Exarchs as being obscure, I'd see them as being fairly active as agents of their respective deities. Of course, it's extremely hard to see how this will play out, given that we're all waiting until August to see the big picture of the FRCS.
I think that's true, we'll just agree to disagree, then. ;)
I DON"T AGREE TO THAT!!!
(Sorry, sorry. My brain is rotted through from to many viewings of The Simpsons)
Maybe that's part of it. I guess I'm not seeing Exarchs as being obscure, I'd see them as being fairly active as agents of their respective deities. Of course, it's extremely hard to see how this will play out, given that we're all waiting until August to see the big picture of the FRCS.
True, although given what Rich has said, I don't expect much out of them. He's indicated that there'll be approximately 30 gods who'll be of import in the Realms. 15 or so Greater Gods, and a roughly equal amount of Lesser Gods.
We can also get a reasonable look at the important of Exarchs from reading about the Exarchs that've already been published. Specifically Doresain on page 208 of the MM and Nezrebe from Dragon. In Doresain's entry it states that the mightiest of Orcus's servants are his Exarchs, and that Doresain is foremost among them. In other words, Orcus has several Exarchs serving him, but only the chief Exarch is mentioned by name and statted up. We're not even told how many other Exarchs Orcus has, or what their names are. Same goes for Nezrebe. According to his entry, Yeenoghu has a stable of Exarchs, nearly all of which are eventually killed by Yeenoghu for failing him.
In both cases, we've got Demon Lords who have several Exarchs in their service. The gods probably have an even larger stable, and they'll probably be just as important as all those nameless Exarchs in the service of Orcus and Yeenoghu. My guess would be that the references to Exarchs in the FRCG will read like this: "Sune is a Greater God, and has several Exarchs in her service, with Lliira, Sharess, and Siamorphe being foremost amongst them." Who're the rest? Who knows. Up the discretion of the DM as to the number, names, and origins of the rest, I'd guess.
I DON"T AGREE TO THAT!!!
*lick* :P ;) :D
True, although given what Rich has said, I don't expect much out of them. He's indicated that we're getting descriptions for approximately 30 gods who'll be of import in the Realms. 15 or so Greater Gods, and a roughly equal amount of Lesser Gods.
I bet the exarchs of the evil gods (or those serving major demons/devils) will be interesting. I wonder if we'll get more of those, either in supplements or DDI... for most PCs, those would be the big bads to fight in epic campaigns. It'd be very, very interesting to see a big epic adventure along the lines of a Lolth adventure, or that Age of Worms in Dragon not too long ago. Exarchs have the potential to be pretty unique, which would make them fun.
Most adventurers can make more money and power through just adventuring than opening up a small or even a large buisness. Anyway not to say having modest goals is a bad thing. It definitely won't take high to mid levels to do though. Again I guess it depends on what type of shop it is goign to be and what the real estate is worth.;)
-I've only had one character actually able to go through with such goals. My Cleric / Morninglord / Contemplative (14th Level total), when our campaign retired, sold his Orb of Storms to finance building an orphanage and church of Lathander.
I think that's probably true, that most games fizzle after 12th or so, with respect to 3.5.
-My own campaign is just reaching this point, and things are just "starting to sizzle", so to speak. Things are just getting good now.
Rauric, Exarch of Mask
Diffan, Exarch of Torm
Stigger, Exarch of Selune
Karsus, Exarch of Amaunator
Rinonalyrna, Exarch of Sune
-Actually, it'd be more like this:
Karsus, Greater Deity
Rinonalyrna, Konsort of Karsus
Stigger, Exarch of Karsus
GreenKnight, Exarch of Karsus
Diffan, Exarch of Karsus
Rauric, Exarch of Karsus
But yeah, an Exarch in service of an evil god would make for an interesting villain. Hell, I may have to take back my last comment, at least in regards to evil Exarchs. We'll probably get more info on them, as they'll likely end up as villains for the PC's. There're already some interesting preexisting ones, like Garagos, Gargauth, and Velsharoon. A couple others along the lines of Doresain and Nezrebe would be pretty nice.
-I've only had one character actually able to go through with such goals. My Cleric / Morninglord / Contemplative (14th Level total), when our campaign retired, sold his Orb of Storms to finance building an orphanage and church of Lathander.
-My own campaign is just reaching this point, and things are just "starting to sizzle", so to speak. Things are just getting good now.
1. You were lucky to get to 14th level.
2. It is cool that you could create something longlasting.
3. I am sorry you had to endure the 14th level combat encounters. :D
-Actually, it'd be more like this:
Karsus, Greater Deity
Rinonalyrna, Konsort of Karsus
Stigger, Exarch of Karsus
GreenKnight, Exarch of Karsus
Diffan, Exarch of Karsus
Rauric, Exarch of Karsus
Actually, it'd be more like this.
Green Knight, Overdeity
Karsus, Greater Deity
Rinonalyrna, Konsort of Karsus
Stigger, Exarch of Karsus
Diffan, Exarch of Karsus
Rauric, Exarch of Karsus
:P
1. You were lucky to get to 14th level.
2. It is cool that you could create something longlasting.
3. I am sorry you had to endure the 14th level combat encounters. :D
-I created the character at 3rd Level (I had another character in the campaign, but the campaign up to that point was filled with Undead, and I was a Telepath Psion, so there was literally 1 Psionic power that was useful, so my DM let me swap out), and leveled him to 9th. I then picked from the Deck of Many Things, and received enough EXP to reach 14th Level.
Actually, it'd be more like this.
Green Knight, Overdeity
Karsus, Greater Deity
Rinonalyrna, Konsort of Karsus
Stigger, Exarch of Karsus
Diffan, Exarch of Karsus
Rauric, Exarch of Karsus
:P
-Not exactly...Remember, you, sir, are a Hand of Karsus, and as such, I have a portion of your soul in a jar, control your flow of salsa, own the deed to El Paso, Texas, and know your True Name.
If you look closer you'll notice that you've got the soul and true name of a Nigerian banker.
-That's good. He has an uncle who just died, and left billions of dollars in a frozen trust fund...
-So, are you saying you are divorcing yourself from the Hands of Karsus?
From the PHB...
As for the effect on the world, most adventurers running around Faerun don't reach epic level. And out of those that do, not all of them have an "Epic Destiny". And ouf of those that do, not all of them are Demigods. And out of those who do become Demigods, not all of them manage to ascend, getting killed beforehand. And for those those who do ascend, well, there's The Red Knight and Torm. It hasn't happened a lot, and it won't happen a lot, but it does happen on occasion, and it has happened on occasion. In other words, business as usual.
And as mentioned before, taking the Demigod ED means the PC is set to become an exarch, which isn't exactly a big fish in the divine pond.
-I think I understand the underlying point that Therese is hinting at: The fact that characters can theoretically start out with the notion that, when everything is said and done in their game, they are going to be deities. I know, I have yet to create a character so ambitious. My current Forgotten Realms character has high ambitions to open a shop back in his home of Calimshan, or perhaps Tethyr. Probably Tethyr.
And my bard character is going to be...hmm, I haven't even decided yet.
I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly would never create a character who set out to be a deity in-game, and even at epic level, I wouldn't choose the Demigod ED every single time, or even most of the time. I don't think the concept of godhood is as great as it's cracked up to be. That said, I have to be honest and say that I don't think becoming an exarch who serves a greater deity is that big of a deal (and that's exactly what the "Demigod" is set to do).
-As for 'ramifications' in the Forgotten Realms...Novels mirror rules. Will we be seeing more decide in the future, in novels? Who knows? Maybe. Maybe not.
Good Lord I hope not. Rich did say that they were going to be focusing on events of smaller magnitude. I hope plans don't change.
In fact, none of the people I currently play with, or DM for, seem to have such "delusions of grandeur".
Indeed.;)
I hope you get your magic shop eventually.;)
Ahh, GK has a nice memory on him.
I was thinking the same thing. Me as an Exarch of Sune...
Nah. I'm multispheric. In one cosmos I'm an overdeity, and in another I'm a Hand of Karsus. For the time being, at least...
-You're making dangerous enemies...
And my bard character is going to be...hmm, I haven't even decided yet.
-A great Bard, that's what she is, and what she'll be.
I don't think the concept of godhood is as great as it's cracked up to be.
-Remember what Genie said: "Phenomenal cosmic power...Itty-bitty living space".
Indeed.;)
I hope you get your magic shop eventually.;)
-Who knows...
-You're making dangerous enemies...
Is it my fault I'm a polarizing figure?
Is it my fault I'm a polarizing figure?
-I would have to say so, yes.
It's times like this that remind me why this is my theme song. Time for this gamma-irradiated paladin to hit the road.
-A great Bard, that's what she is, and what she'll be.
Awww, thanks.:embarrass :D At the current time, that pretty much is her goal for herself (as I've imagined her, she isn't the type to be planning out her "retirement" when she only just starting out adventuring, and has more pressing concerns).
-Remember what Genie said: "Phenomenal cosmic power...Itty-bitty living space".
That's more or less exactly what I was thinking. Mortals have more freedom than gods do.
That was one reason why my Baldur's Gate PC chose to remain mortal, rather than take the rest of Bhaal's essence (and presumably become a demigod).Before they become NPCs I tell them that they fall asleep thinking about their marvelous deity granting them ascension to the deity's realm.
When they awake I describe the realm as a glowing silver world filled with other exarchs the god has decided to elevate. They are dusted with a fine orange dust that seems to glow with a warm spicy scent.
Then everything falls silent as the god prepares to greet them all. The players fall asleep once more and become NPCs reborn as exarchs in the gods realm.
I don't tell the players any more about what happens to their ex-characters from that point on, but I can give you a peek at how their god sees them...
-Talos had a "scam" going in which he siphoned the divine energy of those deities he helped elevate to divinity (of which Velsharoon "tattled"), so, truthfully, the "outlook" for exarchs, keeping this in mind, isn't looking too good.
Awww, thanks.:embarrass :D
-You/She deserves it. ;)
At the current time, that pretty much is her goal for herself (as I've imagined her, she isn't the type to be planning out her "retirement" when she only just starting out adventuring, and has more pressing concerns).
-That we do.
That's more or less exactly what I was thinking. Mortals have more freedom than gods do.
-Wasn't that Bhaal's plot? That he becomes reborn, via his Bhaalspawn taking the mantle of deity?
I'm upset that Velsharron is gone... I always found him a excellent example of smart "would be considered heroic if he wasn't evil" evil
-He was sent "reeling into the Astral Plane". He's a smart guy...If he wants to come back, he can come back.
Myrkul was God of the Dead, Wasting, Decay, Corruption, Parasites, Old Age, Dusk, Fall, and Exhaustion. Kelemvor got the Dead while Mielikki got Fall. The rest are unclaimed. So Myrkul could come back as God of Wasting, Decay, Corruption, Parasites, Old Age, Dusk, and Exhaustion. Hell, add Fall in, too. It'd be easy enough for him to take that back from Mielikki. Those Portfolios, by themselves, would make him a damn intersting deity. That's what I'd like to see. And by snatching Velsharoon's portfolios and making him his Exarch, he can lay claim to lordship over the undead, as well.
-This is how I always envision Kelemvor as a cool deity of magic:
-'Wasting', 'Decay', 'Corruption' would all fall into Moander's territory, and, by proxy, Finder Wyvernspur.
Finder changed those Portfolios to Cycle of Life and Transformation of Art. Besides, even if 'Wasting', 'Decay', and 'Corruption' can all fall under Cycle of Life, Finder can't lay sole claim to them. Demigods don't count when it comes to who can lay claim to what portfolio. Demigods are an exception to the rule that only one god in a pantheon can hold a specific portfolio. So if Myrkul returned, he could still grab up those portfolios without any opposition and without it affecting Finder. Besides, if both Myrkul and Moander co-existed before...
Finder changed those Portfolios to Cycle of Life and Transformation of Art.
-Which means that they are still the same portfolios, only renamed and reemphasized.
-Myrkul is happy in this crown, anyway, so...It's like the Amish tradition in which teens go out into the greater world and do what "normal" teens do, before deciding to either return to the Amish world or not.
-Which means that they are still the same portfolios, only renamed and reemphasized.
He's still a demigod, though, so there's nothing really stopping Myrkul from grabbing up those portfolios.
-Myrkul is happy in this crown, anyway, so...It's like the Amish tradition in which teens go out into the greater world and do what "normal" teens do, before deciding to either return to the Amish world or not.
Fortunately, I don't care about his happiness. :P Although without needing to abide by the rules for god of death, and being able to devote himself to destruction as a god, he'd probably enjoy any reascension.
-This is how I always envision Kelemvor as a cool deity of magic:
That guy has too much of an 'anime' feel for me (which I like, but not for FR), and he also reminds me of a Harlequin (or worse, one of the Joker's henchman).
I like using this pic, which is of Erebus from an issue of Dragon... you know... back when it was good...
Thats from issue #322 - there are quite a lot of great things in there; the whole issue had a 'Shadow' theme, and to tell the truth, it was very good (especially the city in the Plane of Shadows - Balefire, City of Lanterns).
That guy has too much of an 'anime' feel for me (which I like, but not for FR), and he also reminds me of a Harlequin (or worse, one of the Joker's henchman).
-Well, obviously it's 'anime-ish'. That's from an anime!
-You/She deserves it. ;)
Thanks.
-Wasn't that Bhaal's plot? That he becomes reborn, via his Bhaalspawn taking the mantle of deity?
Yes, that's exactly what Bhaal was hoping for. However, by the end of the series (and I don't quite remember all the exact details), it didn't work out that way--the BBEG of Throne of Bhaal (BG2 expansion and the final chapter of the story) was on the verge of taking the essence for herself and becoming a god. When she is defeated, the Solar tells you have a choice--you can either take the essence for yourself or stay a mortal. I do know that if you take the essence, you do end the tale as an immortal (a good/neutral one or an evil one).
-Am I the only one that is fine with Kelemvor being a deity of the dead? Creepy mask Kelemvor, that is.
I don't mind him.
He's not by far one of my favorite gods, but he's all right.-Well, obviously it's 'anime-ish'. That's from an anime!
Where is that picture from? It's neat.
That guy has too much of an 'anime' feel for me (which I like, but not for FR), and he also reminds me of a Harlequin (or worse, one of the Joker's henchman).
).
Yeah, Kelemvor just stuck out like a sore thumb in FR. He would have done great in Dragonlance however (which kind of had that anime, romantic feeling).
I say bring Myrkul back as the god of decay and have Moander back as his exarch. Kelemvor should become the god of magic and Jergal should retake his original position as god of death.
Thanks.
-You know me. :P
Yes, that's exactly what Bhaal was hoping for.
-Well, that'll show him, then.
Where is that picture from? It's neat.
-A series called Vampire Princess Miyu. I'd give it a 'B', it was decent. I have the entire series (26 episodes) if you ever want to see it. I had a Best Buy gift card, and there was nothing that interested me, particularly. I remembered reading something about that series, so I picked it up.
Yeah, Kelemvor just stuck out like a sore thumb in FR.
yeah. I never liked him but I like the Doomguides
I don't mind him.
He'sn my top 5 at least that's probably the next tattoo I'll get :D
Something like this -
Or even this, if he were to get some wings for 4e -
While looking for those, I found a great pic to represent the Lolth of my Homebrew world -
Linky 'cause she is scantily clad, plus the pic is large
-A series called Vampire Princess Miyu. I'd give it a 'B', it was decent. I have the entire series (26 episodes) if you ever want to see it. I had a Best Buy gift card, and there was nothing that interested me, particularly. I remembered reading something about that series, so I picked it up.
Thanks for the offer. That picture is intriguing.
Actually, after posting that Erebus pic, I realize that thats not quite right for Kelemvor - he was a Warrior, not a noble.
Something like this -
works for me
Fortunately, I don't care about his happiness. :P Although without needing to abide by the rules for god of death, and being able to devote himself to destruction as a god, he'd probably enjoy any reascension.
... well I THOUGHT they loved me.
Regardless, we had sooo many old threads about this. Kelemvor from the end of the Avatar series is a perfect god of Death/the Dead. Unforunately for us, when F&A came out, he turned back into whiney death god. As for the undead - as I have said on multiple occasions, if his clergy actively hunted down anyone who extended their lifespan via magic, I'd have no issue with his hatred of undead. Unfortunately, they only go after us necromancers that need some more time.
While people like Wands extend their life publicly or Mystra shows some favor to you and all of a sudden you live hundreds of years.
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-A series called Vampire Princess Miyu. I'd give it a 'B', it was decent. I have the entire series (26 episodes) if you ever want to see it. I had a Best Buy gift card, and there was nothing that interested me, particularly. I remembered reading something about that series, so I picked it up.
Yeah, I am consitering watching that series after I finish Gunslinger Girl and Kare Kano. It looks interesting.