I don't consider whatever they got coming out FR save in name. Destroying a setting so authors don't have to do the work devoted fans devote hundreds of unpaid hours to is sickening.
not to mention pathetic and disheartening. Our only hope is that FR 4E bombs and they will retcon back to the real Realms
I had my PC's unknowingly open a rift to the Nine Hells and the chaos that insued was priceless. The Realms were changed forever and it allowed me to keep the things I still liked about FR while installing my own ideas into the campaign.
The change is also kind of necessary with all the different roles and race changes that were made for 4E. Not everyone is going to like it, but if you're that involved in the FR in the first place, then making the transition with the "old" Realms into 4E shouldn't be that difficult.
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide (September 16th, 2008)
FR1 Scepter Tower of Spellgard September 16th, 2008)
These're all the books that'll be released for the forseeable future. More may be released, but nothing is planned, and that may be all the 4E Realms sees aside from DDI articles.
not to mention pathetic and disheartening. Our only hope is that FR 4E bombs and they will retcon back to the real Realms
problems - it *is* the realms, and some of us are actually quite interested to at least read the books.
I will finally get myself the FRCS.
After 14 years of gaming and absolutely disliking the realms.
Yes, my reaction was "Ye gods, they actually made the Realms interesting." This is a remarkable feat, similar to making brussels sprouts taste good.
Oh drat, they made characters special again. Drat drat drat.
Please, I am actually -interested- now in the new Forgotten Realms, especially after reading the new story line.
And destroying that pantheon oh thank you thank you Wotc. You shouldn't have more gods than characters of importance in a world. Especially when many of them like the 782 prcs 175 classes are just mindless clones of others.
Death to Mystra, Death to good drow deities. Good bye Weave. (a sorry contrived idea to explain spells per day)
Hello, fresh start. The old realms story was pathetically bad, and self contradictory at best, and to say the least not very appealing especially for a fan of having his gaming group actually be important beyond being rat exterminators.
The old realms story was pathetically bad, and self contradictory at best, and to say the least not very appealing especially for a fan of having his gaming group actually be important beyond being rat exterminators.
That has to be one of the stupidest things Ive heard. I guess having a functioning brain isnt as common as I would have thought, because thats all it takes to make the PCs important. Anyone who cant keep NPCs out of their games isnt competent enough to be a DM.
Having so many npcs that are high level has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever seen.
You shouldn't have to bend over backwards to avoid tripping on a novel, or backstory to run a basic game as a dm.
I did the ultimate and best solution to the predicament and made my own world, with no npc bloat, no deity bloat and no self contradictory story lines. Which takes far less effort to do than avoid the FR bloat and or retcon novels and story you don't like.
When it's easier to create a fully fleshed out world than it is to dm a 'ready made world' there's a problem. Hence FR needed to get some massive surgery.
So where then did all the npcs go? On some strange magical vacation that seems to persist only when the pcs are around?
Having so many npcs that are high level has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever seen.
Why do the NPCs show up at all? Does the head of the FBI show up at every murder in the country? The absolutely stupid notion that ANY NPC shows up to deal with the campaign is far and away where the stupidity comes from, not that NPCs higher level than the PCs exist. Any competent DM can think up dozens of reasons why no named NPC can or will show up in their game.
If the players sad little egos cant handle that there may be NPCs somewhere in the setting higher than them thats not the settings fault.
You shouldn't have to bend over backwards to avoid tripping on a novel, or backstory to run a basic game as a dm.
I did the ultimate and best solution to the predicament and made my own world, with no npc bloat, no deity bloat and no self contradictory story lines.
You added this after I responded to your post. There is no need to bend over backward for anything. The number of named NPCs makes up a very tiny percentage of the worlds populations. Even the novels take place in small chunks of the setting and are easily worked around if you even want them in the game. If not ignore them like every other DM who encounters something he or she doesnt want in their game.
Creating your own world is always the best solution. Some DMs dont have the time to devote to that and it is them that campaign settings are aimed at.
I'm not talking the pcs are low level themselves here. I'm talking they are around level 12+ when you start getting into high level territory. Their problems become invariably the npc problems in that region as well.
And then you have the "everything is cannon even things that are no longer supported by the game" of old FR. Another smack to the face.
I'm sorry I am of the opinion that high level characters are NOT a dime a dozen. And nor are the threats that they have to deal with. It cheapens the experience to think "oh yeah there's 10billion Old or better dragons out there in this setting"
Just how many high level threats do you think should exist in a world?
I'm not talking the pcs are low level themselves here. I'm talking they are around level 12+ when you start getting into high level territory. Their problems become invariably the npc problems in that region as well.
And then you have the "everything is cannon even things that are no longer supported by the game" of old FR. Another smack to the face.
I'm sorry I am of the opinion that high level characters are NOT a dime a dozen. And nor are the threats that they have to deal with. It cheapens the experience to think "oh yeah there's 10billion Old or better dragons out there in this setting"
The high level NPCs are NOT a dime a dozen. The named NPCs even in Forgotten Realms make up a very tiny percentage of the population. And even in mid to high level games there are many many means for DMs to keep named NPCs out of their games.
This thread is to discuss the new Realms though and I am pulling the discussion off topic. If youd like to continue feel free to PM me or start a thread on the subject in the FR forums. Ill be glad to discuss the matter further with you and anyone else who is interested in either of those places.
Should be interesting to see if nothing else (and another thing the settings are good for is looking how they are structured and learning how to make your own based on that)
Either way though it's august we'll be seeing everything they've done one way or another.
Should be interesting to see if nothing else (and another thing the settings are good for is looking how they are structured and learning how to make your own based on that)
Theyre also very good for mining ideas for ones own worlds as well. Ive enjoyed most of the settings that D&D has spawned over the years.
Whether people are for or against the new Realms it couldnt hurt to take a chair in B&N or where ever and take a look at the book.
What the others said.
FR finally gets interesting. I no longer have to read for half a year until I know whats going on.
Yep. Thank God.
Hahahah, I for one am excited for the FRCS. More than ever .
problems - it *is* the realms, and some of us are actually quite interested to at least read the books.
there are?
Please, do we really need another thread of "they destroyed our beloved Realms" vs "You need to read novels all day to understand the Realms"?
Apparently people can't agree to differ on the subject.
Those of us who loved the old Realms, for the most part, dislike the new Realms. People who disliked the old Realms are happy because now something they disliked is destroyed. WotC is counting on FR-haters and Newbs to buy-into the New Realms, but I don't think those kind of fans are going to be long-lasting... which is exactly what they wanted.
At one setting per year, they do NOT want anyone to stick with the setting longer then that - they want everone to rush out and buy NEXT YEAR's setting. Good plan - I hope it works for them.
And then there are those few old-school fans who are excited about the new realms - I'm not at all sure where to place them, or even if I should. Perhaps they love FR SO MUCH that ANYTHING with the logo pleases them?
Oh wait... there is no logo...
Maybe we should all agree to disagree. The only point I would like to add is to those few posters that insist the new incarnation is the same setting - The DESIGNER'S have REPEATEDLY gone out of their way to call it a NEW setting - when they switched from 1e to 2e, and then from 2e to 3e, NO such distinction was ever made.
If you continue to insist that it is still FR in more then name only, you are disagreeing with those same designers you love oh so much. The company making it is calling it a NEW SETTING, and therefore it is, regardless of anyone's opinion on the matter.
I will finally get myself the FRCS.
After 14 years of gaming and absolutely disliking the realms.
I'm confused...
The FRCS is 3e...
The FRCG is 4e....
why would you be buying the 3e book when you prefer 4e?
That being said, I understand everyone who doesn't like them. The realms are so detailed and well thought out (for the most part) that a big change is difficult and certainly can serve to make it feel like it's not the realms anymore. To each their own.
I kind of wish they'd do two FR lines, kind of some other systems do (I'm thining of the different time settings for Call of Cthulhu for example) with one group of books taking place as if the spellplague didn't happen and the other series as an alternate reality with the spellplague. That way those of us who want a bit of a change can get some new flavor and those people who like things the way they are, but want to enjoy the 4th Edition ruleset, can still enjoy the realms.
At one setting per year, they do NOT want anyone to stick with the setting longer then that - they want everone to rush out and buy NEXT YEAR's setting. Good plan - I hope it works for them.
really. I hope it fails miserably and people suffer for it :evillaugh
really. I hope it fails miserably and people suffer for it :evillaugh
Speak for yourself. I'm dying to get my hands on Ravenloft, Dark Sun, and a couple others.
Speak for yourself. I'm dying to get my hands on Ravenloft, Dark Sun, and a couple others.
OK. I'll give ya those two plus Mystara
Speak for yourself. I'm dying to get my hands on Ravenloft, Dark Sun, and a couple others.
Yes, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, and Planescape for me please
I've always loved playing in a variety of settings.Any ideas when we can expect a nice setting for the Forgotten Realms?
When William Jennings Bryan is elected president.
OK. I'll give ya those two plus Mystara
I've never read even the barest scrap of info on Mystara. What's the deal with it?
And let's see, out of the old settings I'm interested in... Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape (good call Zaeshir!), and Birthright. Oh, Council of Wyrms would be nice, too, but I don't really expect to see that one.
I've never read even the barest scrap of info on Mystara. What's the deal with it?
Its the old OD&D setting. Had a bunch a gazateers printed on it in the lates 80s including a halfling one by Ed Greenwood
Any ideas when we can expect a nice setting for the Forgotten Realms?
There's already one out.
Hey, you asked.
Maybe I'm alone in this but, after having played in the FR since it's 1st Edition introduction, I'm glad to see the Realms getting an overhaul. I've played all over FR and for so long I eventually took my campaign into the future so I could change things up a bit. It's nice to have a whole campaign written for you by other people, but eventually you want to do things your own way a little.
Right, but there was nothing preventing you from doing that before.
I understand if you like the 4E Realms better--that's fine--but what I'm saying is the truth.
What the others said.
FR finally gets interesting. I no longer have to read for half a year until I know whats going on.
If it wasn't interesting before, then why did you read about it for "half a year?" That's a long time to commit yourself to something you have no interest in.
LoL, the most common thing here "I HATE CHANGE"
Ummm, no. Just because someone does not like certain changes (in a fictional setting, no less) does not mean they "hate change."
And why do you care so much about what other people think that you take the time to FLAME them? People disagree with you, and you will just have to deal with that if you want to post here.
I do like loose change, however
That being said, I understand everyone who doesn't like them. The realms are so detailed and well thought out (for the most part) that a big change is difficult and certainly can serve to make it feel like it's not the realms anymore. To each their own.
Thank you for actually being polite, and letting others disagree with you. I appreciate that.
LoL, the most common thing here "I HATE CHANGE"
Actually I havent seen that at all. The Realms have always changed, its always been a fluid setting. These changes however are very heavy handed and make zero sense from a setting point of view. Its understandable that many fans of the setting may not be happy with them.
All posters who said things like "Dye Mystra", have been reported for harassment and trolling. We don't apreciate trolls around here. Especially ones who never post around here and come to troll any time they have to troll about the true and interesting Forgotten Realms, not the crap that is going to be released. If you don't like the realms, go play eberron and leave Forgotten Realms to those who love the setting.
They didnt come in here just to post anti FR stuff. This thread initially appeared in the new releases forum (hence my earlier apology for going off topic) and was later moved here. In any case, just as youve been allowed to post your anti 4e stuff in every thread youve gone into, they are also allowed to voice their own opinions. Whether you or I agree with them or not.
Actually I havent seen that at all.
Nor have I. The majority of posters here are more even-keeled and diverse than that...person is making them out to be.
For example, I'm excited about the new rules, but dislike the changes done the Realms setting. The new setting isn't for me, and I'm well within my rights to express that here.
By the same token, I'll respect people who disagree. However, I will question those who state their opinions as if they were facts, and I will absolutely NOT tolerate nastiness hurled in my direction.
Thank you for actually being polite, and letting others disagree with you. I appreciate that.
No problem
Not everything made is going to appeal to everybody. As long as people are civil about their dislikes, I have no problem with them whatsoever. Someone prefering D&D3.5 (or 3.0, 2E, 1E, etc.) over a newer system or one setting over another does nothing to detract from my enjoyment of that system or setting. In fact, I have to admit, I still like playing 2E from time to time 
In fact, I have to admit, I still like playing 2E from time to time
I'm sure I'd enjoy that too if I had the chance to play it (I've played in CRPGs, but not actual tabletop games).
As I've said elsewhere, I tend to see rules as mostly incidental to D&D--what attracted me to D&D in the first place was not a set of rules, but the opportunity to play your way through a fantasy story.Nor have I. The majority of posters here are more even-keeled and diverse than that...person is making them out to be.
For example, I'm excited about the new rules, but dislike the changes done the Realms setting. The new setting isn't for me, and I'm well within my rights to express that here.
By the same token, I'll respect people who disagree. However, I will question those who state their opinions as if they were facts, and I will absolutely NOT tolerate nastiness hurled in my direction.
Ill certainly take a look at the new books tomorrow. Im looking forward to it though I am very dubious as to whether Ill 'upgrade' or not.
When it comes to the Realms proper, they have gone through many many changes over the years. And not just between editions but during the course of editions as well. I dont think these new Realms are for me though. If someone else picks them up and enjoys it, well, awesome for them.
This thread was originally posted in the New Releases forum, which is where many of the posts were made. I respect that others may have differing opinions to mine. Theyre welcome to. But many of the early ones of this thread certainly seem to be intentional baiting, and I bit. I admit I tend to initially post very aggressively and unfortunately Cpt_Micha took the brunt of it. Im glad he was able to be cordial about it and let it go so easily, and I apologize to him.
Ill clarify my post to Alediran just in case. I havent seen the new rules yet so I cant agree nor disagree with you yet. I wasnt attacking you. I was just pointing out that if you can go into the thread Therise posted for people who DO intend to use 4e so that they can discuss how to work parts of their campaigns just to bait and attack 4e then by the same token people should be allowed to come into a FR forum to express their opinions, good or bad, about the new FR.
Ill certainly take a look at the new books tomorrow.
Sounds like a good idea.
I wasnt attacking you.
Oh no, I know you weren't! I was making a general statement, because the tone of this thread (at least in the beginning) was creeping towards not only bashing the old setting, but the people who like it as well.
-I'll leave it open for the time being, but if the flames flare up again, on either side, I'll be recommending it be closed.
-Well, I don't think there is anything else that needs to be said. Just compare responses.
Including the ones that were edited or deleted by the WizO's? :P
Including the ones that were edited or deleted by the WizO's? :P
-I wish I had access to those. Those are the juiciest ones.
No problem
The problem is this thoug: Previous changes between editions while big, were not big enough that a DM couldn't pick and choose things and continue to advance their campaign to the next edition. That cannot happen here. To go to 4E you must abandon your current campaign
Right, but there was nothing preventing you from doing that before.
I understand if you like the 4E Realms better--that's fine--but what I'm saying is the truth.
Truth and Perception are two different things though. It appears to me few people saw the truth of what could be done with the setting and preceived it as a place that needed help.
The problem is this thoug: Previous changes between editions while big, were not big enough that a DM couldn't pick and choose things and continue to advance their campaign to the next edition. That cannot happen here. To go to 4E you must abandon your current campaign
-Right. This is why the 100 +/- time line jump is my biggest gripe.
All posters who said things like "Dye Mystra", have been reported for harassment and trolling. We don't apreciate trolls around here. Especially ones who never post around here and come to troll any time they have to troll about the true and interesting Forgotten Realms, not the crap that is going to be released. If you don't like the realms, go play eberron and leave Forgotten Realms to those who love the setting.
It's called having an opinion, just like you have your opinion about 4e. Not a bannable offence, nor something which should just be ignored.
Right, but there was nothing preventing you from doing that before.
I understand if you like the 4E Realms better--that's fine--but what I'm saying is the truth.
It can be said the other way around aswell. If you like the 3.0/3.5e better, play in that FR. And if you do get the new FRCS setting I'm sure you can change it to suit your own needs aswell.
It's called having an opinion, just like you have your opinion about 4e. Not a bannable offence, nor something which should just be ignored.
It's considered trolling and harassing. Thereby punishable by the CoC.
The problem is this thoug: Previous changes between editions while big, were not big enough that a DM couldn't pick and choose things and continue to advance their campaign to the next edition. That cannot happen here. To go to 4E you must abandon your current campaign
This is true and an unfortunate consequence of the overhaul. But that being said, you don't have to jump to 4E right away. Campaigns can be finished first and then a new one can be started, if so desired, in the new ruleset. It does suck if one likes the new rules but doesn't want to end their campaign though. I was in that boat till the DM running my last campaign got super busy and the campaign just died.
It's considered trolling and harassing.
As is calling out in public that you've reported someone.
Thereby punishable by the CoC.
Go figure.
As is calling out in public that you've reported someone.
It's not. Pointing out misbehaviour is the first step to stop it.
You like the 3.0/3.5e better, play in that FR.
If you're making a statement about me specifically, you are wrong. I haven't stated anywhere that I like 3.0E/3.5 rules better than 4E. I have not made that determination yet.
And if you do get the new FRCS setting I'm sure you can change it to suit your own needs aswell.
Of course. I'm thinking of taking a look at the new FRCS to see if it has ideas I might like.
This is true and an unfortunate consequence of the overhaul. But that being said, you don't have to jump to 4E right away.
Or at all, if that's not what's desired.
It's considered trolling and harassing. Thereby punishable by the CoC.
-So is randomly posting "DIE $e DIE", with no editorial value.
Or at all, if that's not what's desired.
Well that's true
-So is randomly posting "DIE $e DIE", with no editorial value.
Clarification: DIE 4e DIE!
Nobody wants money dead.
If you're making a statement about me specifically, you are wrong. I haven't stated anywhere that I like 3.0E/3.5 rules better than 4E. I have not made that determination yet.
Sorry about that. I missed the "if" before "you". I was talking in general.
Sorry about that. I missed the "if" before "you". I was talking in general.
Understood.
I want money dead...
I'll take yours if ya want
I want money dead...
Me too, the world would be better without economy.
I want money dead...
You want everything dead. You'd kick a Care Bear in the head just to see if it would live through the punishment.
Me too, the world would be better without economy.
Not so sure about that. Even if you remove a monetary exchange, people will just use a different currency, and a good economy keeps a country in great health.
Not so sure about that. Even if you remove a monetary exchange, people will just use a different currency, and a good economy keeps a country in great health.
Well, lots of monkeys make for good trade. As long as I have my monkey farm, I'm going to do well without money....
I'm not done squeezing the life from it yet, but as soon as I am, it's all yours Merrik... ;)
nice
You want everything dead. You'd kick a Care Bear in the head just to see if it would live through the punishment.
That's true, I would kick a Care Bear... though I would preferably toss one on a highway from an overpass and watch it mutilated by traffic instead... fond memories of that really...
And I don't want everything dead. Just mostly everything... :evillaugh
I do not like what I've seen happening to the Forgotten Realms though ; it's not resistance to change... I've been with this campaign setting through 3 Editions now.
I've been DM'ing this campaign setting for nearly 20 years now. I can't say that I have all the Realms material ever published but I would say probably around 70% or so of it. Even after the campaign timeline advanced and the world changed radically through it's various editions, I could reference a decade old book and use the fluff for 3E campaigns. There may be a decade or three gap in campaign time from the 'Campaign Date' from one sourcebook to the next, but say, the FR series of books were excellent reference material for geography, climate and culture as they ever were regardless of what 'time' or 'edition' of the Realms was being played.
With the massive, sweeping changes that are happening with the coming of the new edition, that is no longer the case. Not only are they making some massive geographic changes to the world, but the are obsoleting my collection of almost 20 years of source material.
(On a side tangent, how many box sets and sourcebooks did they need to come out with for Waterdeep anyways? I realize it's a huge city and impossible to document every nook and cranny, but isn't it amazing they managed to essentially trod over the same ground time and time again with so much to explore in that one city that never got examined? I digress.)
I could purchase 3/3.5E Forgotten Realms material with the security that it still supported campaign continuity and did not detract from my extensive collection -- even as fantastic (and darn-near implausible) as some of those changes that happened as time (in both the real world and the Realms) went on.
FR4E changes the landscape so much that I can say, for me, it is no longer the Forgotten Realms. If others play it, and enjoy it, kudos to them. For me, I'm done. I'm sitting this one out. For me, the Realms are a product of the past and the new campaign setting is just that, with a Forgotten Realms label.
All good things must come to an end.
whats the verdict on when a FR campaign source book will be published for 4th edition.
Are you talking about the August book. The Players Guide comes out in mid September
I will finally get myself the FRCS.
After 14 years of gaming and absolutely disliking the realms.
I agree. It was stale, to me. I don't think they destroyed the setting. It is time for change. jumping the time line is brilliant, IMO. I'm sure we'll at least see the crucial character updates, if available as far as age, etc is concerned, and will know of the fate of the main ones that have died, too.
I read a lot of the books, and invested time, etc, just like others who dislike the change, but to me, it feels right. I haven't played in the Realms for any of 3.X due to that, and with 4e, my group is going back.
I'm looking forward to it.
whats the verdict on when a FR campaign source book will be published for 4th edition.
The answer's in post 7 of this thread.
What happens to all the unique magic spells and libraries of magic that existed prior to 4.0? Now that the wizard can only have a very low and set number of spells in their repetoire (spellbook), do these other spells just vanish? In looking at the new books there is nothing on researching new spells, no more spells on scrolls (except rituals), etc.
How do you plan to handle the master/apprectice dynamic? According to what I can tell, a wizard replaces his lower spells for higher ones as he increases in power and the lower spells vanish from his spellbook. So how can a master teach an apprentice when the spells have vanished from his books?
For me (who has played a mage for 20 years) the Realms represent a rich world of magic and spells. If magic selection is now so limited, how will you run the new setting in terms of its spells?
Thank you for reading this
That's true, I would kick a Care Bear... though I would preferably toss one on a highway from an overpass and watch it mutilated by traffic instead... fond memories of that really...
Awesome.
The answer's in post 7 of this thread.
Do you hold the market on thread links or something. Every time I look, you have a link there to answer a question.
I had a couple questions I'd like to throw out that relates to 4e Forgotten Realms:
What happens to all the unique magic spells and libraries of magic that existed prior to 4.0? Now that the wizard can only have a very low and set number of spells in their repetoire (spellbook), do these other spells just vanish? In looking at the new books there is nothing on researching new spells, no more spells on scrolls (except rituals), etc.
In theory, the old libraries and their procedures still are there, but they're not valuable -as- spells or procedures except that they might be useful from a roleplaying point of view. Like, so-and-so inherited a book that gave him a glimpse into the fundamentals of magic. Those wouldn't be the spellbooks one would use during play, or useful as spells themselves.
How do you plan to handle the master/apprectice dynamic? According to what I can tell, a wizard replaces his lower spells for higher ones as he increases in power and the lower spells vanish from his spellbook. So how can a master teach an apprentice when the spells have vanished from his books?
I don't think they "vanish" so much as they scale upwards. From a roleplaying point of view, I imagine that your DM could allow the casting of lower-level spells in certain instances. It wouldn't really change anything to say you're casting the lower level version, as it would be like Warcraft when you simply cast the lvl 20 version of Frostbolt instead of lvl 70 Frostbolt (for tagging, when you don't want to kill, just draw something out).
For me (who has played a mage for 20 years) the Realms represent a rich world of magic and spells. If magic selection is now so limited, how will you run the new setting in terms of its spells?
Thank you for reading this
Yeah, that looked bad to me as well. Magic is now very limited, and doesn't look different at all really from clerical magic or even druidic magic. It's all "balanced".
I was also disappointed that (at least initially) there doesn't seem to be any method for researching and creating new spells. Barring everything else, the unique ability of the wizard to research and create new spells and items was the biggest drawing factor for when I'd play a mage. Now, what's the difference? I'd just play a cleric where you get functionally the same thing, and the ability to wear heavier armors.
(On a side tangent, how many box sets and sourcebooks did they need to come out with for Waterdeep anyways? I realize it's a huge city and impossible to document every nook and cranny, but isn't it amazing they managed to essentially trod over the same ground time and time again with so much to explore in that one city that never got examined? I digress.)
Digress? Not really, methinks.
Anyone playing 4E in, say, Waterdeep stands a good chance of being able to reference any of the numerous Waterdeep sourcebooks.
Just as someone eager to learn more about Suzail can look at a Volo's Guide or decade old 2E sourcebook to find street names and locations.
Obsoleting is stretching it.
I had a couple questions I'd like to throw out that relates to 4e Forgotten Realms:
What happens to all the unique magic spells and libraries of magic that existed prior to 4.0? Now that the wizard can only have a very low and set number of spells in their repetoire (spellbook), do these other spells just vanish? In looking at the new books there is nothing on researching new spells, no more spells on scrolls (except rituals), etc.
For rituals and daily powers I plan to handwaive the limited spellbook. The page mechanics of 3.5 work just fine. Losing spells learned makes NO sense what so ever.... At will and encounter Powers are more like linked to the HOW a mage learned his basic manipulation techniques he learned at his academy.
How do you plan to handle the master/apprectice dynamic? According to what I can tell, a wizard replaces his lower spells for higher ones as he increases in power and the lower spells vanish from his spellbook. So how can a master teach an apprentice when the spells have vanished from his books?
Yeah, good catch! Seems stupid they screw this classic wizard theme out of the window. With the schools that learn a specific type of magic manipulation this could be aleviated a bit by learning the students the theories behind the atwill and encounter powers they're going to get and let the archmage use the powers that mostly emulate the lower level ones in examples...
For me (who has played a mage for 20 years) the Realms represent a rich world of magic and spells. If magic selection is now so limited, how will you run the new setting in terms of its spells?
Allowing a prospective player of a 15the century mage of creating his own spells, essentially opening the road for conversion of all spells he can get his characters grubby hands on. This will make finding librabries give a 15th century mage the same feeling of reward and possibilities as one in the current timeline.
Balance is not a thing I cant handle as a DM. I refuse to gimp the realms for that alone...
Personally, I think I will develop some home-brewed way to allow more spell selection for a mage. I can not even imagine Elminster, Alustriel, or any other Archmage of the realms in terms of 4e at this time as 95% of their spells just went poof. Not to mention Szass Tam and most of his necromantic magic gone. How about Shade? They preserved the whole netherese tradition and now in 4.e they can not use the spells anymore either.
Maybe future supplements will improve this lack of spells. Heck, a level 30 mage can not even normally use more than 3 daily use magic items anymore to supplement their magic. No more days of wands of fire/ice etc to help in battles when spells run low.
I understand the need to make everyone more equal and feel useful but magic really has been reduced to almost nothing.
Do you hold the market on thread links or something.
Yes.
Every time I look, you have a link there to answer a question.
I'm especially proud of myself, this time. I didn't just put up a link to the answer. I linked to a post where I liked to the answer.
@Therise: What he meant with "vanish" is that Wizards are now like sorcerers in respect to how many spells they know, and when you change one spell for another (even when they are not related at all like your example) the changed spell suddenly dissapears from the spellbook itself. The 4th edition Wizard can't learn all the spells, he can only know 2 spells per slot he has (for example 8 encounter spells, 8 daily, 14 utility at lvl 30, no more, no less)
I know, I was trying to give it a roleplaying explanation, heh.
I'm especially proud of myself, this time. I didn't just put up a link to the answer. I linked to a post where I liked to the answer.
Marketeer and manipulator. I'll beware.
Definitely appreciate the linkage though. Nice to have a Cite Master around.
I also believe, that responding to what you consider to be trolling, in an argumentative and harsh way, is also against the Code.
I liked the old Realms and I am going to give the 4E Realms an honest shot. I will not hate it, nor love it, before I can even see it. I do not like all of this baiting concerning the topic of if the 4E Realms are going to be good or not. It doesn't need to be repeated in many posts by the same person (Not naming names here). It is getting very old.
I also believe, that responding to what you consider to be trolling, in an argumentative and harsh way, is also against the Code.
Ah! 492 of your personalities are over-happy anyways.
People--listen not to what he says. He'd vote for equal rights for dolphin's if given the opportunity.
@Alediran Exactly. For example, an apprentice approaches his master to learn the fireball spell but as the master no longer has it. So, (1) the master can not teach it, (2) the student can not get the spell from the master.
Of course he can teach it. Just because he's no longer using it doesn't mean that he, a Master Wizard, couldn't teach an apprentice the arcane formulae and whatnot to cast the spell. A master wizard is not a novice in the very principles of magic.
-Let's keep on topic.
OK. 4E Forgotten Realms sucks canal water. Is that better?
I agree. It was stale, to me. I don't think they destroyed the setting. It is time for change. jumping the time line is brilliant, IMO. I'm sure we'll at least see the crucial character updates, if available as far as age, etc is concerned, and will know of the fate of the main ones that have died, too.
I read a lot of the books, and invested time, etc...
You say "it was time for change" as if the Realms did not change at all before the 4E changes were announced, yet you also say you've read a lot of the books.
Did you read the novels that came out in recent years (even years before 4E was ever announced) that brought big changes to the setting?
-I had Chinese food for dinner, and apparently, I am enlightened now. Must be the MSG.
[...] Did you read the novels that came out in recent years (even years before 4E was ever announced) that brought big changes to the setting?
I guess that is one part of the problem. What do you think how far I would get if I attended a Living Force campaign and expected such and such to happen, because it was included in a recent novel?
If WotC is not "forceful" enough to make sure the occured changes get properly included in the official setting material with web enhancements or suitable supplements, you can hardly blame the average DM who doesn't want to (or can't) read 1000s of pages to just keep up with the timeline.
What happens outside the officially published setting material is basically irrelevant. Yeah, the novels are a good read, that's for sure. But including something that happened in one of them that is not in the official timeline (for which reasons ever) is basically house-ruling.
The realms don't have too much munchkins...it's just that, they have too many munchkin munchkins...or to put it in another sentence...their munchkins are just too much...let's tone it down for a bit...The Simbul blasting away a thousand demons and Vangerdahast pawning orcs in thousands without getting a single scratch on his forehead was a bit too much for my taste. It's good to be balanced...
Pretty soon will be seeing new munchkins arise in 5e, like Garam the orc bard whose song resurrected the Earth Mother from her grave in the Moonshaes...Or Jolim the barbaric sprite who eradicated a fire-giant settlement with a needle...And there will be wizards too...Sallie the bugbear sorceress who married Larloch during the spellplague (Fortunately Larloch has a fetish for fuzzy things.)
4e is good...Bottom line is that, they made it easier for the newbies to be able to play it...3e was kinda confusing if you ask most people. But 3e is more detailed which is better for the old gamers...And the fact about too much munchkins in the Realms, well I take back what I said...
Imho the major problem for new players and especially DMs in FR was that the setting tried to be too much at the same time. You have a timeline spanning tens of thousands of years, the descriptions of "globally" operating evil organisation spanning dozens of pages, and NPCs spiking into the epic levels all over the place.
One problem I often had when playing (not DMing) FR was "how the hell does my char get involved"? A matching comparison would be, what could you do the US military cannot?
The realms don't have too much munchkins...it's just that, they have too many munchkin munchkins...or to put it in another sentence...their munchkins are just too much...let's tone it down for a bit...The Simbul blasting away a thousand demons and Vangerdahast pawning orcs in thousands without getting a single scratch on his forehead was a bit too much for my taste. It's good to be balanced...
My first thought of the FRCS was "they are not serious?!" when I read that one-half page long justification of Elminster, why he doesn't run around and omgwtfbbqpwn everything. Evil organizations there, high level NPC antagonists there, and intrigant gods and their servants all over the place.
In my opinion something is terribly wrong, when you need a stronger justification for NPCs not getting involved, than you need for the PCs to get involved. After all, the PCs are the protagonists of the game, not some dark skinned fighter / barbarian / ranger dude or an elderly fighter / rogue / cleric / wizard who happens to bed the goddess of magic sometimes.
I mean, what reason is there for the PCs to do something great that a level XYZ NPC cannot do for various (mentioned) reasons. So, if Elminster goes around and thwacks the Thays, their epic-level grade zulkirs get p*ssed and retaliate. Cool, and the zulkirs don't get p*ssed and retaliate agains the PCs if they thwack the Thays for exactly what reason?
Pretty soon will be seeing new munchkins arise in 5e, like Garam the orc bard whose song resurrected the Earth Mother from her grave in the Moonshaes...Or Jolim the barbaric sprite who eradicated a fire-giant settlement with a needle...And there will be wizards too...Sallie the bugbear sorceress who married Larloch during the spellplague (Fortunately Larloch has a fetish for fuzzy things.)
:heehee You have a good sense of humor.
LoL, the most common thing here "I HATE CHANGE"
Hm, I don't think it's Change that the 'old fans' dislike, but the way it's done.
Dragonborn? Sure why not, Tiamat was active in Unther, big magic Ritual or something, Untherites transform into Dragonborn. Also Damara had a paladin-king who was a champion to Bahamut. There would have been posibilities as well.
Do we need Abeir for this? No.
Genasi Kingdoms? Sure why not? But why did it have to hit an Old Kingdom? Calimshan could have seen a revivel of the Djinni-Kingdoms of Calim and Memnon for some Years and it would probably host a sizeable population of Genasi. Do we need Abeir for this? No.
Tiefling Realm? Sure, why not? Let the survivin Fey'ri built a kingdom with Tanaruk-footsoldiers somewhere. Let parts of Thay/Mulhorand (where Tieflings could battle with the neighbouring the Asimar decendants of the Mulhorandi gods) be consumed by a dark God and his army of demons and you will probably get a huge load of Tieflings... Do we need Abeir for this? No.
Aboleth Sov.? Sure why not? Local underdark Aboleths break through the bottom of the sea and flood large parts of the Underdark, becoming a greater Power in the region. Do we need Abeir for this?
No.
Returned Abeir (Stupid name by the way)? Sure, why not? Why not? Because Maztica and it's neighbouring northern continent could have done quite the same, because they were virtually unexplored by the Settings publications and within 100 years an empire there could have opend portals to another world fetching new races just like the Imaskari did with the Mulan-ancestors of the Old Empires with the same results. And I doubt that Returned Abeir will be little more than a footnote within the setting. so why nuking existing material? Do we need Abeit for this? No.
Want Magic to change for 4ed? Sure, why not? But did one have to kill Mystra, AGAIN? She herself could have seen why she was in the way of true magic neutrality for once and could've altered the rules how magic works.
Additionely did it have to be Cyric who killed her and AGAIN did get away with it? Come on a 1000 Years of imprisonment? Why not go for Eternal?
Why not have Mystra tricking Cyric into 'murdering' her, making him the scapegoat for the spellplage and Mystra might survive as a vestige called Midnight, some sort of Persephone to Kelemvor/Hades? Something nice instead of designers(!) favorites Shar and Cyric win? Did our PC-Heroes really deserve something like this after saving Magic/Mystra in the Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroch-Triology, only to see her die by Cyrics hand?
Want the Drow-Pantheon to shrink? Sure why not? But did it have to be a total cutdown? The Masked Lady was a promising change for Eilistraee and should've been explored, keeping parts of Vhaeraun in the Realms as well. A two Goddess Pantheon (plus slime god) would have been enough.
Brown-skinned Dark Elves (Brownies) instead of good drow? Sure why not? But did they have to have black hair to make them 'un-drowish'? Did someone think about the fact that some people do like the 'cool' look of these elves. Silver Hair in honor to Eilistraee might have been nice.
Want Helm/(Tyr) gone? Sure, why not? But did it have to be such a goofy plot concernig a love interest that ends in a duel ? Would an epic threat been a more satisfing end to Helm/(Tyr)? Probably yes. and could have also served as an explanation to some of the other gods deaths/transformations yet to be revealed.
Want the High level NPCs gone? Sure, why not? But do you really think there will be no new high level NPCs created by the new designers, who only wanted to bomb the old HL-NPCs because they would take the spotlight from their new toys?
I could continue, but I think it's clear what I mean.
Did we need this Spellplague/Abeir gig to get a brandnew FR-Setting with the new designers 'cool' new stuff? Probably not, at least not in the way it was/ will be executed.
A little bit more thought and respect in regards to the faithful fans of the 'Old' Realms here and there would've been nice. Now it's just: "Let's drop the Spellplague-Nuke, let the gods run amok and in the end let's see if old fans remain and how many new Fans will get. By the way what will we do if all the WoW-onlinegamers we are aiming for won't bite?"
Best wishes
Lirdolin
Hm, I don't think it's Change that the 'old fans' dislike, but the way it's done.
Exactly. I have said I would have been fine with the need to kill Mystra in order to implement the 4e magic system. I don't like unnecessary changes and the time leap
Dragonborn? Sure why not, Tiamat was active in Unther, big magic Ritual or something, Untherites transform into Dragonborn. Also Damara had a paladin-king who was close to Bahamut. There would have been posibilities as well.
Do we need Abeir for this? No.
I don't want dragonborn myself
Genasi Kingdoms? Sure why not? But why did it have to hit an Old Kingdom? Calimshan could have seen a revivel of the Djinni-Kingdoms of Calim and Memnon for some Years and it would probably host a sizeable population of Genasi. Do we need Abeir for this? No.
Tiefling Realm? Sure, why not? Let the survivin Fey'ri built a kingdom with Tanaruk-footsoldiers somewhere. Let parts of Thay/Mulhorand (where Tieflings could battle with the neighbouring the Asimar decendants of the Mulhorandi gods) be consumed by a dark God and his army of demons and you will probably get a huge load of Tieflings...
I like both races but I like them the way they are, rare and lonely.
Returned Abeir? Sure, why not? Why not? Because Maztica and it's neighbouring northern continent could have done quite the same, because they were virtually unexplored by the Settings publications and within 100 years an empire there could have opend portals to another world fetching new races just like the Imaskari did with the Mulan-ancestors of the Old Empires with the same results. And I doubt that Returned Abeir will be little more than a footnote within the setting. so why nuking existing material?
They could blew up Maztica for all I care
...3e was kinda confusing if you ask most people.
-I didn't find it confusing when I started playing, but that's me.
Hm, I don't think it's Change that the 'old fans' dislike, but the way it's done.
-Indeed, it is true.
-The Forgotten Realms are a living setting. They are constantly changeing and evolving in a (mostly) fluid manner at the pace of how often new novels/sourcebooks/adventures are published. To say that "XYZ doesn't like change" is absolutely false, because there is change constantly going on. It's a built-in part of the setting.
I guess that is one part of the problem. What do you think how far I would get if I attended a Living Force campaign and expected such and such to happen, because it was included in a recent novel?
I have no idea what you're talking about here.
If WotC is not "forceful" enough to make sure the occured changes get properly included in the official setting material with web enhancements or suitable supplements, you can hardly blame the average DM who doesn't want to (or can't) read 1000s of pages to just keep up with the timeline.
I wasn't blaming anyone, here, and I think you completely missed the point I was trying to make.
I was pointing out what I saw as a contradiction--the person said he (she?) read a lot of the material, but also seemed to be asserting that the setting was stagnant and not changing at all. You don't have to have read 1000s of pages of the recent FR material to know that it was changing, and at a pace a lot of people said they didn't like. You could learn that easily just by reading this forum.
I'd like to get an answer about that from the person I was talking to, NOT you.
For the record, if you read enough of my posts (and by the way, I would appreciate it if you'd refrain from making off-the-cuff assumptions about me in the future), you'd know that I'm not a cheerleader for FR "canon" and my own version of the Realms is much different from the official one.
What happens outside the officially published setting material is basically irrelevant. Yeah, the novels are a good read, that's for sure. But including something that happened in one of them that is not in the official timeline (for which reasons ever) is basically house-ruling.
All novels are considered canon and part of the official timeline. I didn't decide that (and I don't even like it!), WotC did. According to Rich Baker, the new post-Spellplague novels will still be canon.
Brown-skinned Dark Elves (Brownies) instead of good drow? Sure why not? But did they have to have black hair to make them 'un-drowish'? Did someone think about the fact that some people do like the 'cool' look of these elves. Silver Hair in honor to Eilistraee might have been nice.
I was thinking the same thing. A lot of people like they way drow look, and probably won't like the idea of their characters changing from that.
I'm curious as to whether or not Drizzt is going to change (I don't remember whether or not he was described in The Orc King as a drow).
4e is good...Bottom line is that, they made it easier for the newbies to be able to play it...3e was kinda confusing if you ask most people. But 3e is more detailed which is better for the old gamers...
The rules or the setting?
After trying my first session of 4E, I must say that it is more work involved in actual playing. It takes more time to go around the table now as well, when every person has to read over a bunch of different abilities to choose from every round.
I would say, find different gamers or find more intelligent gamers.
Things should quickly become second nature.
If not, well then....
I don't think it has anything to do with their intelligence level. That is a lot of stuff to have to remember. You WILL have to look stuff up just about every single time you want to accomplish anything now.
I will have to take your experience on this.
For once!
But, when I play it and know completely everything, I am coming back to bite you in the ass!!!
After trying my first session of 4E, I must say that it is more work involved in actual playing. It takes more time to go around the table now as well, when every person has to read over a bunch of different abilities to choose from every round.
-Well, it is new to you, so you gotta learn.
-And, everyone has those flashy powers and all. What was that defunct one? Rising Dragon Kick? Something like that...
"Drow B1tch Slap!" Cool! :P
And managing the resources of 5 characters at the same time isn't that hard. I do it as a DM in 3rd edition with 10 or more characters at the same time, and always changing because of the different encounters.
The rules or the setting?
Hmmm...I really don't know since I've never played 4e rules/setting before....But I still think it's cool...Mebbe cooler than 3e coz it's something new...
I don't consider whatever they got coming out FR save in name. Destroying a setting so authors don't have to do the work devoted fans devote hundreds of unpaid hours to is sickening.
Yeah, but destroying it so it isn't a nonsensical, convoluted mess is a stoke of genius. Spellplague==best thing to ever happen to the realms
If that's true then D&D has become another videogame set in easy mode. Nevertheless, that 7th year old boy has an IQ above average from what can be grasped by the writers descriptions.
And managing the resources of 5 characters at the same time isn't that hard. I do it as a DM in 3rd edition with 10 or more characters at the same time, and always changing because of the different encounters.
Ditto.
Yet, I would warn Alediran that, perhaps, you overestimate the intelligence of the average individual. I've had single players that couldn't manage all the stuff their PC was trying to handle.
BTW, there's a chicken demon running around you haven't handled.
Hmmm...I really don't know since I've never played 4e rules/setting before....But I still think it's cool...Mebbe cooler than 3e coz it's something new...
-New doesn't mean better. Look at Windows Vista, for example.
Yeah, but destroying it so it isn't a nonsensical, convoluted mess is a stoke of genius.
-Yeah, I'm still waiting for that nonsensical convoluted mess...
In our campaign when our character encountered the Zentarim, it caused us to seek out and befriend and later join the Harpers. The first time my wizard witnessed the evils of Thayan slavery, he made it his goal in life to bring about complete reform in Thay, leading to an ultimate showdown between him and Szass Tam. I played that Wizard for over 7 years, almost every weekend. When my character sacrificed himself to destroy one of the settings most evil Lichs it was the greatest moment of all those years combined.
The Npc's are not there to take away from the players, and the history is not there to confound or confuse, these things are there for the pleasure (or terror) of the players. Any DM who cant see that and make use of such a plethora of ideas and inspiration probably shouldn't be sitting behind the screen.
I will read 4e, and most likely play a game of it, but not in the Realms. What they have done to the realms is unexplainable within our own game. Perhaps we should just start a new game? We most certainly will, but if I'm gonna buy a new book in order to play with brand new material, why not buy a book of brand new material that doesn't ruin years and years of established stories and games and just get an actual "fresh start"
I must say that I don't understand the sentiment that the detailed NPC's or rich history of the realms prevented anyones characters from doing anything.
-There are various reasons for this type of sentiment. I think that the most prevalent reason for this is due to negative forumulative experiences with the setting, in which the DM was doing something wrong: stressing NPCs, and not the PCs, running a style of game the player does not enjoy, reacting in a negative manner when the question of continuity was brought up, any combination of those, or something completely different...It creates a hostile attitude towards the setting, and thus...
After trying my first session of 4E, I must say that it is more work involved in actual playing. It takes more time to go around the table now as well, when every person has to read over a bunch of different abilities to choose from every round.
Unless you know the rules, special abilities, and mechanics of the game pretty well, it's going to go slower for a while. Heck, we still have to search through material running 3e.
And, for the life of me I don't see why people can play both editions? If it's a money thing, well you knew first hand getting into this hobby was going to be expensive. If you were shocked by the release of 4e, how were the first 3 editions not a clue? Time and again i see people saying how happy they are that now 4e out, all the 3e books will be on-sale
. As if WotC isn't getting your money anyhow, lol. Some people like it, some don't..But I kinda like the 3.5 rules better.
Having not looked at the 4e rules, i really don't know yet. I do find some of the 3e rules.....unnecessary. For example, the multitude of skill checks required to do simple things like jump on a table or actually role-playing instead of just rolling a die for your Diplomacy. The large amount of useless feats (ie. Decietful, Negotiator, Quick Draw, etc..). The rules reguarding Grappling, Bull Rush, Flanking, and Turning. The list goes on, but still I enjoy the majority of the 3e game to older editions. Hopefully this will be true of 4e.
As for FR specific 4e...while I don't particually care for the time jump or the spell-plague, it doesn't bother me to the point of rejecting everything entirely. On one hand, you have people who say the changes aren't needed and such changes should've been left up to the individual DM. On the other hand, the same could be said about NOT changing. If you don't like the changes, don't incorporate them. In the long run, it's less of a hassle for you because it's less stuff you have to worry about. Besides, retcons are easier to deal with considering the massive amounts of them from 1st through 3rd edition.
So it's not only a rules issue, but the constant work done by WotC to prevent any kind of deviation from what they want.
Everyday that passes they sound more and more like my country's politicians.
Without Quick Draw, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
So basically any 2nd level or higher character can draw his weapon while moving. No reason for this feat to be considered in ANY character creation except that of a Master Thrower type character or one who wants to draw a hidden weapon.
Diffan, for what I heard (rumor) WotC introduced a line in the GSL that specifies you can't play older settings (3rd and before) with 4th edition rules.
So it's not only a rules issue, but the constant work done by WotC to prevent any kind of deviation from what they want.
Everyday that passes they sound more and more like my country's politicians.
I don't see how a setting (basically the back-drop) can't be adjusted to fit any rule set. Sure, your not going to have any more source material published but with the older setting, you don't need any. But, since I don't have the 4e stuff yet, I can't base my opinion with any facts.
Diffan, for what I heard (rumor) WotC introduced a line in the GSL that specifies you can't play older settings (3rd and before) with 4th edition rules.
-If that's true, that's in an official sense. No one is coming to your house, contrary to what Rich has said in the past. ;)
Without Quick Draw, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
So basically any 2nd level or higher character can draw his weapon while moving. No reason for this feat to be considered in ANY character creation except that of a Master Thrower type character.
-Heh, never used the feat like that before in any game I played in.
So basically any 2nd level or higher character can draw his weapon while moving. No reason for this feat to be considered in ANY character creation except that of a Master Thrower type character.
Iterative attacks. One example:
You are in melee with an opponent that you kill with the first strike, you still have 2 more attacks in that turn, so you change to your bow as a free action and you are able to attack an enemy that is not in melee range without wasting your attacks.
Iterative attacks. One example:
You are in melee with an opponent that you kill with the first strike, you still have 2 more attacks in that turn, so you change to your bow as a free action and you are able to attack an enemy that is not in melee range without wasting your attacks.
By taking a 5-ft step (a movement action that allows you to draw a weapon) and dropping your melee weapon (a free action) you gain the same effect.
By taking a 5-ft step (a movement action that allows you to draw a weapon) and dropping your melee weapon (a free action) you gain the same effect.
Your not allowed to draw a weapon on a charge or other altered movements action like a 5foot step, without the Quick Draw feat, only a regular move action can be combined with a draw weapon action.
Or a rogue aiming for the Flick of the Wrist feat, or someone who throws onehanded weapons, or who like to mix and match melee and ranged attacks as they please. My highest level character (a streetfighter from Baldurs Gate) loved his quickdraw feat, also allowing a full attack on the first round of combat. He also took Hurling Charge to make two sneak attacks on a charge during the surprize rounds when faced with foes a bit further away.
Right, but like i said it's only really useful for character builds who throw weapons or want to draw a hidden weapon. Also there are magical items that mimic the same effect, thus freeing up one of your feat slots.
Your not allowed to draw a weapon on a charge or other altered movements action like a 5foot step, without the Quick Draw feat, only a regular move action can be combined with a draw weapon action.
Source? It says pretty specifically in the PHB if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher, as a free action as part of movement you can draw a weapon. A 5 ft. step is a movement. The charge could be another matter, considering it's a full-round action. But it's a movement reguardless
By taking a 5-ft step (a movement action that allows you to draw a weapon) and dropping your melee weapon (a free action) you gain the same effect.
Not if the second target is out of your melee reach even with the 5 ft. step.
-Yeah, I'm still waiting for that nonsensical convoluted mess...
So you're not familiar with FR then? :D
Right, but like i said it's only really useful for character builds who throw weapons or want to draw a hidden weapon. Also there are magical items that mimic the same effect, thus freeing up one of your feat slots.
Agreed for melee weapons is not essential. But still it good for the getting an action advantage in combat during the first few rounds.
Source? It says pretty specifically in the PHB if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher, as a free action as part of movement you can draw a weapon. A 5 ft. step is a movement. The charge could be another matter, considering it's a full-round action. But it's a movement reguardless
Page 141 in the PHB states a weapon can be drawn as part of a regular move. So drawing weapons always takes at least a move action.
Not if the second target is out of your melee reach even with the 5 ft. step.
I meant drawing a ranged weapon.
Ok, the PHB (p.141) says that a 5-ft. step is considered "No Action". So my theory is shot to sh!t, lol. But, if you read the PHB (p.138) under Move Action:"You can move your speed, climb one-quarter of your speed, draw or stow a weapon,....." as a move action. Thus, while making a full-round attack, dropping the opponent with 1 your 1st melee attack, dropping melee weapon with a free action, then using your move-equivalent to draw the ranged weapon, you can use the rest of your attack actions to fire said ranged weapon.
EDIT: Sorry for de-railing..................
So you're not familiar with FR then? :D
-A bit more familiar than a couple of others.
I meant drawing a ranged weapon.
Ok, the PHB (p.141) says that a 5-ft. step is considered "No Action". So my theory is shot to sh!t, lol. But, if you read the PHB (p.138) under Move Action:"You can move your speed, climb one-quarter of your speed, draw or stow a weapon,....." as a move action. Thus, while making a full-round attack, dropping the opponent with 1 your 1st melee attack, dropping melee weapon with a free action, then using your move-equivalent to draw the ranged weapon, you can use the rest of your attack actions to fire said ranged weapon.
EDIT: Sorry for de-railing..................
And you'd have no action left in that situation as you'd taken an unfinished fullround action already (the first attack part of the full attack). You can only take a 5 foot step inbetween a full attack and continue attacking.
Yeah, but destroying it so it isn't a nonsensical, convoluted mess is a stoke of genius.
The Realms has sold well enough over the years (why else did WotC keep putting out products for it?) to suggest that many people disagreed with you. Even Rich Baker admitted that what they are doing with the setting is a gamble that they hope will pay off.
And didn't you start a thread before about wanting to read Elaine Cunningham's books? They are all pre-Spellplague, so why are you bothering? Why do you want to read novels set in a world that you think is a nonsensicial, convoluted mess?
I'm calling you out on that.
Ditto.
Yet, I would warn Alediran that, perhaps, you overestimate the intelligence of the average individual. I've had single players that couldn't manage all the stuff their PC was trying to handle.
Is it all a matter of intelligence?
Remember, this is supposed to be a game, not homework.
And, for the life of me I don't see why people can play both editions? If it's a money thing, well you knew first hand getting into this hobby was going to be expensive. If you were shocked by the release of 4e, how were the first 3 editions not a clue?
You're right about that. I didn't understand all the outrage, either--4E was bound to come sooner or later, and that isn't exactly clandestine knowledge.
Time and again i see people saying how happy they are that now 4e out, all the 3e books will be on-sale
Well, WotC might not get the money if the products are bought second-hand.
So you're not familiar with FR then? :D
No, you don't seem to be.
You asked for it.:P
(...) Well, WotC might not get the money if the products are bought second-hand.
Additionally, I hear about people doing (illegal) pdf sharing and I've always wondered if it's a fairly small percentage of people who do that, or a large percentage. Given that we live in the information age with scanners and such, seems like it wouldn't be too hard to do. But if it's a large percentage, it could hurt the bottom line for product sales.
Additionally, I hear about people doing (illegal) pdf sharing and I've always wondered if it's a fairly small percentage of people who do that, or a large percentage. Given that we live in the information age with scanners and such, seems like it wouldn't be too hard to do. But if it's a large percentage, it could hurt the bottom line for product sales.
Yes, that's right. There's no way to know how many people are doing that.
Needless to say, I only advocate obtaining the products through legal means.
You're right about that. I didn't understand all the outrage, either--4E was bound to come sooner or later, and that isn't exactly clandestine knowledge.
Personally, I've been hoping for a 4E since before Star Wars Saga and Book of Nine Swords was released. When those two came out all I could think was "Damn, I wish 4E would come out already so they could put this stuff into the main rules".
Yes, that's right. There's no way to know how many people are doing that.
Needless to say, I only advocate obtaining the products through legal means.
Of course, because it's illegal - but I'm still curious how many people might be doing it. What other people do that leads to fines or jail is interesting, from a psychological standpoint.
We had a -huge- clampdown on file sharing here at our University, as apparently tons of people in the dorms (using the on-campus internet!) were downloading illegal music (and probably other things, porn being a big one). Many people these days, and not just kids, seem to have a built-in "justification" for doing it, which seems borne out of a more general entitlement.
Personally, I've been hoping for a 4E since before Star Wars Saga and Book of Nine Swords was released. When those two came out all I could think was "Damn, I wish 4E would come out already so they could put this stuff into the main rules".
Looks like you got your wish.
Of course, because it's illegal - but I'm still curious how many people might be doing it. What other people do that leads to fines or jail is interesting, from a psychological standpoint.
Understood.
It is interesting.Looks like you got your wish.
I did, and I'm as happy as a pea in a pod
, whatever that means. :D As for filesharing, I doubt it affects gaming companies much (well, aside from those who deal mostly in PDF's). It's a pain to read stuff off a computer screen, and most people don't drag laptops to game tables and flip through PDF's to look up rules (which takes way to long). And for the price of printing a book, you may as well buy it. PDF's and such have their uses, but most people will want actual physical books for gaming. Just my opinion, of course.
As for filesharing, I doubt it affects gaming companies much (well, aside from those who deal mostly in PDF's). It's a pain to read stuff off a computer screen, and most people don't drag laptops to game tables and flip through PDF's to look up rules (which takes way to long). And for the price of printing a book, you may as well buy it. PDF's and such have their uses, but most people will want actual physical books for gaming. Just my opinion, of course.
Lugging around a 50-lb. book bag is more of a hassle than a laptop (espically the ones that are as big as a notebook!!) and most of the information is right at your finger tips. But your right, I doubt it affects games in the long run. I'd rather have the book than a file any day.
It's a pain to read stuff off a computer screen, and most people don't drag laptops to game tables and flip through PDF's to look up rules (which takes way to long). And for the price of printing a book, you may as well buy it. PDF's and such have their uses, but most people will want actual physical books for gaming. Just my opinion, of course.
-Actually, I know this guy...Don't know where he gets the PDFs, but he takes his laptop to the "gaming table".
-Actually, I know this guy...Don't know where he gets the PDFs, but he takes his laptop to the "gaming table".
I've bought quite a lot of 2E material as PDFs from sites like rpgnow.com and paizo.com, but I don't recall seeing many 3.5E PDFs. I'd probably buy those too, as they're infinitely more portable.
I've bought quite a lot of 2E material as PDFs from sites like rpgnow.com and paizo.com, but I don't recall seeing many 3.5E PDFs. I'd probably buy those too, as they're infinitely more portable.
-Same here. 95% of my 2e stuff are .PDF files. I've never seen a 3e PDF, but, like I said, I don't know where he gets them, so, but...
-Same here. 95% of my 2e stuff are .PDF files. I've never seen a 3e PDF, but, like I said, I don't know where he gets them, so, but...
I'm more of a paper guy myself
I'm more of a paper guy myself
-I agree. It's handy having 2e sourcebooks as .PDF files, since I reference them and use them with Forgotten Realms questions and all, and I can copy and paste passages. But, there's something missing not being able to physically hold the book and flip through it.
So let me get this straight... if I've read over these forums enough it seems like everyone who hated the Realms now loves it and everyone who loved the realms now hates it... that makes little sense to my mind but whatever. Go Pathfinder!
Its more like everyone who loved the realms hates it and a few people who hated it will now give it a look-see
[...] Are the flame wars between the systems as bad as one can expect?
Pretty much.
On the left side: the 4E haters, whining about how much DnD was dead, WotC ruined the rpg game, the world was coming to an end, and calling everyone who doesn't share their supernatural hatred of everything 4E "fanatic" or "fanboy".
On the right side: the 4E supporters, playing with the new system, having fun, trying to convince the 4E haters to at least look at the game from a reasonable perspective, calling them "stubborn" or "ignorant".
And in the middle the rest, who either doesn't care or just tries to not get overrun in the battle. New players who are completely irritated by the hate spawned on the various rpg forums. Old players who are finally driven away by it.
So, yeah, the DnD community is happily tearing itself apart over a freaking rules set and how not having a "Profession" skill on your character sheet marked the death of all roleplaying in DnD.
Pretty much.
On the left side: the 4E haters, whining about how much DnD was dead, WotC ruined the rpg game, the world was coming to an end, and calling everyone who doesn't share their supernatural hatred of everything 4E "fanatic" or "fanboy".
On the right side: the 4E supporters, playing with the new system, having fun, trying to convince the 4E haters to at least look at the game from a reasonable perspective, calling them "stubborn" or "ignorant".
And in the middle the rest, who either doesn't care or just tries to not get overrun in the battle. New players who are completely irritated by the hate spawned on the various rpg forums. Old players who are finally driven away by it.
So, yeah, the DnD community is happily tearing itself apart over a freaking rules set and how not having a "Profession" skill on your character sheet marked the death of all roleplaying in DnD.
what? there's no profession skill? Those sunava..... Lets get 'em!
On the left side: the 4E haters, whining about how much DnD was dead, WotC ruined the rpg game, the world was coming to an end, and calling everyone who doesn't share their supernatural hatred of everything 4E "fanatic" or "fanboy".
On the right side: the 4E supporters, playing with the new system, having fun, trying to convince the 4E haters to at least look at the game from a reasonable perspective, calling them "stubborn" or "ignorant".
-Fourth Edition supporters would be on the left, while the anti-Fourth Edition people would be on the right. Theoretical progressivism versus theoretical traditionalism.
what? there's no profession skill? Those sunava..... Lets get 'em!
That's easy to solve:
-Fourth Edition supporters would be on the left, while the anti-Fourth Edition people would be on the right. Theoretical progressivism versus theoretical traditionalism.
Yeah, whatever. I'm tired of it.
That's easy to solve:
Well, i finally got the 4e books yesterday. From a glance, it seems...........far different than 3e but then again, not. I'd say 90% of the new stuff are things I'm happy they changed. For example, the trimming of Skills and doing away with skill points per level. For me, that was the single most annoying part about 3e character creation. Although, something that I find...leery was the doing away with standard additional attacks per round. Because most combat actions are at-will/encounter/or daily abilities, theres no more additional attacks from say, high base attack bonuses. Only certain powers grant you additional attacks or using action points. The additional feats and ability boosts at certain levels are definitly a plus in my book as are the doing away with negative ability adjustments and level adjustments. All in all, it seems interesting and fun. I do wonder though how they're going to explain the difference between Eladrin and Elven races and where Moon elves will fit in. From what it looks like, Sun elves are going to become Eladrin (seeing as they came from Faerie) and the original Faerun elves will make up the Elven race for 4e. But didn't Moon (silver) elves come from Faerie along with the Suns?
Hey all,
Well, i finally got the 4e books yesterday. From a glance, it seems...........far different than 3e but then again, not. I'd say 90% of the new stuff are things I'm happy they changed. For example, the trimming of Skills and doing away with skill points per level. For me, that was the single most annoying part about 3e character creation. Although, something that I find...leery was the doing away with standard additional attacks per round. Because most combat actions are at-will/encounter/or daily abilities, theres no more additional attacks from say, high base attack bonuses. Only certain powers grant you additional attacks or using action points. The additional feats and ability boosts at certain levels are definitly a plus in my book as are the doing away with negative ability adjustments and level adjustments. All in all, it seems interesting and fun. I do wonder though how they're going to explain the difference between Eladrin and Elven races and where Moon elves will fit in. From what it looks like, Sun elves are going to become Eladrin (seeing as they came from Faerie) and the original Faerun elves will make up the Elven race for 4e. But didn't Moon (silver) elves come from Faerie along with the Suns?
I'm still waiting for mine. Damn Amazon!
-New doesn't mean better. Look at Windows Vista, for example.
Yeah.....I didn't like vista that much...I can't say I hate it. it's just that I'm very uneasy with its new features..
As for the rules....I kinda do mine homebrew....I always (most of the time) DM games...And I kinda make some rules that aren't in the rulebook like:
hunger: if ur character forgets to eat for a day he will loose 2 strength and constitution....the value doubles if the days go on....and if strength or con. goes below 0...ur character dies
hygiene: loose charisma if u forget a bath....
yadda yadda yadda.....I usually focus my games in DnD less(very less) on the hack and slash...and more on the...what it's like to live in the realms....like running a business as a trader in Sembia....well you'll have to deal with robbers or assasins too...but the trading issue and...food, health and shelter kinda botches up the majority of my games...
I also play as a character on other DMs....
For example, the trimming of Skills and doing away with skill points per level. For me, that was the single most annoying part about 3e character creation.
-Nah, skills are the best part!
From what it looks like, Sun elves are going to become Eladrin (seeing as they came from Faerie) and the original Faerun elves will make up the Elven race for 4e.
-Correct. Sun Elves will be "Eladrin".
-No Elves are native to Faerûn. All immigrated from Faerie. Some before others, which causes the "confusion".
But didn't Moon (silver) elves come from Faerie along with the Suns?
-A single Moon Elf (Sharlario Moonflower), yes. He mated with other Sun Elves to create the modern Moon Elf on Faerûn. Moon Elves, along with Sun Elves and Star Elves, will all be "Eladrin".
The MM entry for eladrin says that they're sometimes called sun elves, moon elves, or star elves.
-On Faerûn they'd always be Sun Elves, Moon Elves and Star Elves.
-A single Moon Elf (Sharlario Moonflower), yes. He mated with other Sun Elves to create the modern Moon Elf on Faerûn. Moon Elves, along with Sun Elves and Star Elves, will all be "Eladrin".
hmmm. Will there still be wood and wild elves?
hmmm. Will there still be wood and wild elves?
Yes. And you should know better than to tempt Karsus on such matters.
-Nah, skills are the best part!
I never liked it, myself. To few Skill Points for certain classes and the whole cross-class skill system made it a huge pain.
-Fourth Edition supporters would be on the left, while the anti-Fourth Edition people would be on the right. Theoretical progressivism versus theoretical traditionalism.
Applying political labels to this doesn't make much sense. Nevermind that there's far more to "Left Vs. Right" then simply "change things vs. keep things the same". It isn't about change vs. no change, but doing things in one way or in another. If you live in a socialist country and are advocating changing the system to a more capitalist system, that doesn't make you a leftist and the socialists in charge conservatives.
hmmm. Will there still be wood and wild elves?
-Moon Elves will have 'Eladrin' stats, and will continue to be called 'Moon Elves'. Wild Elves will have 'Elf' stats, and will continue to be called 'Wild Elves'.
I never liked it, myself. To few Skill Points for certain classes and the whole cross-class skill system made it a huge pain.
-Cross class skills, I never used. Everyone has full access to all of the skills on the skill sheet (barring specialized things, like Spellcraft, Autohypnosis, and so on).
Applying political labels to this doesn't make much sense. Nevermind that there's far more to "Left Vs. Right" then simply "change things vs. keep things the same".
-Of course, it can be simplified down to progressivism versus traditionalism in regards to, as someone called it, "Edition Warz".
-Cross class skills, I never used. Everyone has full access to all of the skills on the skill sheet (barring specialized things, like Spellcraft, Autohypnosis, and so on).
If you had to houserule it, then clearly skills aren't the best part. :P I love the whole skill condensation, though. Getting more bang for your skill buck. It's something I've wanted to see in D&D ever since I first saw it in Mutants & Masterminds (taking skills like Hide and Move Silently and combining them into one skill, and so on). It's nice to have a Fighter take a skill like Athletics and get the equivalent of Climb, Jump, and Swim, without having to use up every single skill point he's got and then some, and still having the ability to get more besides!
The only complaint about it I see is they added a Flying skill - everywhere else they condensed the skills, but in that one case, they added one. I personally like it (it makes sense), but most folks have been squawking about it (probably those people that have been playing a Wizard like WWII fighter plane).
It does make logical sense to me though - you don't just cast a spell and learn how to out-maneuver creatures that have been doing it their whole lives. Plus, now there is a system in place to determine just how maneuverable each creature is in flight, and what they can do at their skill level.
And everyone gets more points, and its easier to take non-class related skills.
If you had to houserule it, then clearly skills aren't the best part. :P
-I don't get that. Because of the ruling, skills are the best part. And, even without, they'd still be the best part. They define your character, on a level more intimate than feats or ability scores. Customizability.
I never liked it, myself. To few Skill Points for certain classes and the whole cross-class skill system made it a huge pain.
I like the more streamlined skills, myself. For example, I think it only makes sense to combine Hide and Move Silently. I also agree with you about PCs getting more "bang for their buck", skillwise.
While they like having things lumped together, they don’t like the static nature of the rules.
That is, getting a flat +5 is boring to them since:
A) They’re used to picking where to put skill points.
B) They like that sort of character building activity.
C) Unless they spend a feat, they don’t get to improve their skills outside of
the .5 per level bonus they get for leveling up.
There's something to be said for oversimplification. I have to wait and see how the game plays some more, but on its face it looks like WotC went overboard on the skill rules.
The complaints I’m getting from my players have to do with the way the skill system works.
...
There's something to be said for oversimplification. I have to wait and see how the game plays some more, but on its face it looks like WotC went overboard on the skill rules.
-I agree with this. Just making up an example, putting all sorts of skills, like climbing, jumping, swimming, and so on in an 'Endurance' skill might streamline the skill process, there is a huge difference between the necessary attributes to excel in swimming, jumping, climbing, et al.
And if he wanted to go outside the Fighter Skill List box, he could get Skill Training and be just as good in that skill as if it were a class skill. No cross-class penalties whatsoever. I can see the argument for having numerous skills, but that variety doesn't mean much if you can't really take advantage of it. Or if you're penalized for venturing outside of your class box. That sort of skill list is better off in a point system, like Hero System, GURPS, or Mutants & Masterminds (although they also consolidated a good number of skills).
-The skills are as useful as the campaign makes them. For instance, I run a nautical campaign, so Swim checks, Profession (Sailor) (Hey, what was that mention that if you use Profession checks in your game, you are not having "fun"? :rolleyes
, and things like that come up a lot.-I do agree that there should be a general increase in the proliferation of skill points for ALL classes. I never understood why Wizards- part of their "job" is to sit and study and such- received so little Skill Points.
I imagine it's about making the skill more useful, though. If it's a choice between just Jump and something more useful, then Jump isn't all that appealing. But if it's Jump/Climb/Swim...
Well, in the case of a sailor, I can see a use for Climb and Jump, in which case Athletics makes perfect sense for sailors, so nyah! :P
-Don't try to dodge it, though. You know what I mean.
-I agree with this. Just making up an example, putting all sorts of skills, like climbing, jumping, swimming, and so on in an 'Endurance' skill might streamline the skill process, there is a huge difference between the necessary attributes to excel in swimming, jumping, climbing, et al.
What's being done, in my opinion, is that it is being assumed that if a character took the time to be good at one thing in each skill set, they are probably good at the other. For example, the game is assuming it is unlikely for a rogue to have practiced hard at hiding but didn't bother to learn how to move silently.
Granted, that's certainly a shortcut (it's conceivable to be good at one thing in the skillset but not good at another), but it's done for the sake of the game being fun--that's the intent anyway.
[...] Profession (Sailor) [...]
Just out of morbid curiosity: what do you use this skill for, besides judging how much money the PCs can make in a week of doing "sailory stuff"?
What's being done, in my opinion, is that it is being assumed that if a character took the time to be good at one thing in each skill set, they are probably good at the other. For example, the game is assuming it is unlikely for a rogue to have practiced hard at hiding but didn't bother to learn how to move silently.
Granted, that's certainly a shortcut (it's conceivable to be good at one thing in the skillset but not good at another), but it's done for the sake of the game being fun--that's the intent anyway.
-I know, I know. I understand. I personally don't think that you should assume that if the character is good at one thing, he/she is good at those related things.
Just out of morbid curiosity: what do you use this skill for, besides judging how much money the PCs can make in a week of doing "sailory stuff"?
- Sailing a vessel
- Maintaining a vessel
-Both of which come up often in a nautical campaign.
-
- Sailing a vessel
- Maintaining a vessel
-Both of which come up often in a nautical campaign.
As do the skills, "cruise for prositutes" and "avoid VD"
As do the skills, "cruise for prositutes" and "avoid VD"
-I try to keep that part "in the background". ;)
- Sailing a vessel
- Maintaining a vessel
-Both of which come up often in a nautical campaign.
I see.
Then I take it all "sailors" in your campaign also have appropriate ranks in Balance, Climb, Survival, and Use Rope? Because these are also typically needed for a sailor, but definitively not covered with Profession.
I see.
Then I take it all "sailors" in your campaign also have appropriate ranks in Balance, Climb, Survival, and Use Rope? Because these are also typically needed for a sailor, but definitively not covered with Profession.
-Differs by the character.
-I know, I know. I understand. I personally don't think that you should assume that if the character is good at one thing, he/she is good at those related things.
I understand your opinion. I was just giving my own interpretation of the new skill rules.
-I don't get that. Because of the ruling, skills are the best part. And, even without, they'd still be the best part. They define your character, on a level more intimate than feats or ability scores. Customizability.
I've always thought defining your character was how your role play them, not some statistic number on the sheet. If you want to play a sailor, then play a sailor, and whip up some back story on how you've sailed the seas and what not. Why does it have to have some numeral impact on what's written on your character sheet? That was my biggest gripe about 3.x. The only profession that actually had any usefulness was Siegecraft engineer. It allowed you bonuses to maintaining, reloading, and firing a siege craft which is game, or rather, combat related. For me, the most definingly intimate part about your character is only limited to your imagination and that, I think, is the way it's approached in 4th.
I've always thought defining your character was how your role play them, not some statistic number on the sheet. If you want to play a sailor, then play a sailor, and whip up some back story on how you've sailed the seas and what not. Why does it have to have some numeral impact on what's written on your character sheet?
-The two need to corroborate with each other. How does it happen that you are a sailor who has sailed the high seas for decades, yet you do not know how to perform basic ship rigging (or some other function, I don't know much about sailing myself)? Doesn't make much sense, there.
-I can say, claim, and so on, that my character can do anything, but, in reality, there he/she can only do so much.
I've always thought defining your character was how your role play them, not some statistic number on the sheet. If you want to play a sailor, then play a sailor, and whip up some back story on how you've sailed the seas and what not. Why does it have to have some numeral impact on what's written on your character sheet?
Don't worry, we cannot understand that. That's some roleplaying thing.
[...] For me, the most definingly intimate part about your character is only limited to your imagination and that, I think, is the way it's approached in 4th.
Agreed.
Sometimes I really wonder how you'd make a human fighter of below average intellect in 3.5 that actually was trained in 3 different crafts or professions. :P
-Differs by the character.
I'll take Profession (High Mage) and Profession (Chosen of Mystra). And Profession (Magister).
-The two need to corroborate with each other. How does it happen that you are a sailor who has sailed the high seas for decades, yet you do not know how to perform basic ship rigging (or some other function, I don't know much about sailing myself)? Doesn't make much sense, there.
Well, if the campaign, quest, adventure took place on water, and my character said he was a sailor, then i might want to look up some information on sailing. Nothing in depth, but some basic prinicples about how things function, terms used in/on a boad (ie, port, starboard, aft, astern, fore, keel, mooring, nautical mile, rudder), and maybe basic safety survival tips when on a boat. Actually making the character and doing a "small bit" of research on what his profession might entail. That way, if the DM says there's a problem, either with the boat, or maybe a ship sailing after them, my player would have a basis of knowledge on how to perform. Having people actually be accoutable for the info is (IMO) way more interesting, and indepth, than rolling a die.
I've always thought defining your character was how your role play them, not some statistic number on the sheet.
I agree. There are certain things that don't need to be a stat. Good at sailing could just be something you and the DM agree upon as backround info. Good at carperntry is another. Backround things that may never be important to your fight with a pack of ghouls
Well, if the campaign, quest, adventure took place on water, and my character said he was a sailor, then i might want to look up some information on sailing. Nothing in depth, but some basic prinicples about how things function, terms used in/on a boad (ie, port, starboard, aft, astern, fore, keel, mooring, nautical mile, rudder), and maybe basic safety survival tips when on a boat. Actually making the character and doing a "small bit" of research on what his profession might entail. That way, if the DM says there's a problem, either with the boat, or maybe a ship sailing after them, my player would have a basis of knowledge on how to perform. Having people actually be accoutable for the info is (IMO) way more interesting, and indepth, than rolling a die.
-If there is nothing on the character's sheet to reflect that the character (not the player) has any reason to know about various sailing terms, practices, events, and so on, I'd say that'd be borderline metagaming. For example, would/should the poop-deck swabber know about some kind of advanced evasion technique developed by a British admiral during the American Revolution? I don't think he/she would/should. Would the captain? Maybe. Who would have more ranks in the skill? The captain.
-I'm all for roleplaying, but if a character is actually good at something, it needs to somehow be reflective on their character sheet.
-I just finished writing up an NPC...He has 19 ranks in Profession (Sailor): 8 spend skill point, 2 from the Old Salt feat, and 9 from the Seamanship ability of the Dread Pirate PrC.
For example, would/should the poop-deck swabber know about some kind of advanced evasion technique developed by a British admiral during the American Revolution? I don't think he/she would/should. Would the captain? Maybe. Who would have more ranks in the skill? The captain.
But I'm really not asking for uber-advanced evasion techniques, but simple info on the workings of a ship. It would also reflect on how long a character says he's been a sailor. And besides, i honestly don't think a player is going to look up nautical maneuvers to out-do his foes based on the simple fact that such information would take a bit longer to research when the player would rather be playing unless he was that devoted and maybe a captain himself.
For me, it boils down to the fact that in our campaigns, we've hardly used the Professon skill outside of saying "well, it's been 2 weeks since you've seen any action. You've been working in/around Waterdeep, plying your various skills. Roll to see how much gold you've made. Ok, now everyone meets at the bar for drinks......" It's never been a factor outside that besides some references to monsters somone might know through his profession. But to each his own, and i'm not going to be-grudge someone who loves and fully uses the skill point system. :D
Metagaming would be taking information you, yourself, would know and say that your character knows it. Like how to beat a vampire's damage reduction, what a creatures's spell resistance is, what CR a ogre mage is. When the information is specifically tailored to your character, in this point-sailing, I wouldn't consider it metagaming. In fact, i'd reward a person who went out of their way to gain such information to enrich the flavor of their character.
But I'm really not asking for uber-advanced evasion techniques, but simple info on the workings of a ship. It would also reflect on how long a character says he's been a sailor. And besides, i honestly don't think a player is going to look up nautical maneuvers to out-do his foes based on the simple fact that such information would take a bit longer to research when the player would rather be playing unless he was that devoted and maybe a captain himself.
-Ixnay on the beruay. :P
-Anyway, there's the rub. There's nothing to stop a player from suggesting some kind of technical maneuver, survival on the high seas tip, and so on and so forth that his character has no business knowing. A player can know about how...sailing into the sun while there's fog out causes optical illusions to cloak the vessel in virtual invisibility (just making that up off the top of my head), but why should Stinky the poop-deck swabber know this? Likewise, if the player doesn't know much about sailing, a Profession (Sailor) check allows the captain to know things that the captain should, but that the player actually doesn't. That's why I like the Profession check in these cases, asides for determining variable things, like if the character is able to dock the ship successfully, and so on and so on.
Maybe because Stinky served with a captain who pulled off exactly that maneuver and it stuck with him as being something clever that might work in situation X? As to the checks and all that, sure they're convenient for subjects that no one knows much about, but I see absolutely no reason for penalizing a player with a good idea just because they don't have a certain number on a piece of paper, at least beyond being a prick. Fun for all and all that...
-I don't penalize anyone. That's because they have the ranks in the profession.
And if someone has a great idea but no ranks, is that disallowed because of that? Sounds like a penalization to me if its disallowed.
-That's what a skill check roll is for. With no bonuses to the check, of course. ;)
With 4e lets say I'm a giant in a field. I can move silent, but wait! There is a small group of people coming to kill me. It's ok, my hide skill is the same skill as my move silet, I'll be fine. Ok, lets make this guy something bigger than a giant...
The 4e skill set is horrible. I think 3e was fine if you didn't stick 100% to the rule book, and it is said the books are a guide line. Like fighters got ripped on skills, so take your class attribute plus and add this to the amount of skills you could know, or even double that plus. Example: STR 18 so you have a +4, this plus 4 lets you access 4 skills you couldn't before (or eight if you double this), thus making you a better fighter with more skill abilities. A fighter that can't move silent is too restrictive, he can only move silent if he multiclasses? Now you can also use your class stat to figure your starting point total instead of Int. Int. doesn't have anything to do with your physical prowess, how smart I am doesn't affect how long I will run. You just need a small tweak and 3e is fine.
4e is made simple so anyone can play with little research. Is this right? I say no. Lets lets everyone join in on the medical system, politics, rocket science. What I'm trying to say is everything is being dumbed down. Use your mind a little and read the books to a more in-depth level, or you'll just rot your brain on simplicity because it is less stimulated.
Skills did define your players, and so did some of the feats, now everyone can flip, climb mountains, swim like a fish, etc. just because they have points in one area. Might as well be a god- oh wait, I hear it's easier to do that too, and no wonder with the system made the way it is. It's geared towards egos now.
A "What are you going to be the god of?"
B "I'm going to be the the Shadow Weave"
A "Eh, there is already a goddess for that, and she has been a goddess almost since time began, but I think you can kill her."
B "YA! And I'll do it all with a sword that is hardly magical now and with my friend the mage that can hardly cast a spell worth a pile of poo now! Awesome!"
With 4e lets say I'm a giant in a field. I can move silent, but wait! There is a small group of people coming to kill me. It's ok, my hide skill is the same skill as my move silet, I'll be fine. Ok, lets make this guy something bigger than a giant...
From the 4E PHB, page 188.
Cover or Concealment: Unless a creature is distracted, you must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a Stealth check. You have to maintain cover or concealment to remain unnoticed. If a creature has unblocked line of sight to you (that is, you lack any cover or concealment), the creature automatically sees you (no Perception check required).
Basicly i think it is best to trust in the developers. With a setting as popular as this they will have worked hard on it to make everyone happy and sell alot more... I think those with an open mind will be pleased. Those with closed minds never are... and are probably the same people down on 4th edition in general.
Basicly i think it is best to trust in the developers...
-Because of numerous developments, many of us have lost that faith in many of the current crop of designers (Chris Sims, Chris Perkins, Bruce Cordell...).
I don't hear much about Ravenloft or Darksun now.
WotC hasn't done much with either since 3E came out. But recently, though? They'll both be getting articles in DDI, Ravenloft is getting a new novel line, and when discussing the "one setting per year" plan, both of them were mentioned.
If someone else prefers that, its fine by me, I don't really care, but my own feeling is that 4e, thus far anyway, takes away a lot of the conceptual freedom that 3.5e offered. Maybe that will change at some point, and I'll be able to get my down-on-his-luck average adventurer concept back, but I'm doubting it with everything I've seen so far. To use the Mystery Men movie as an example, sometimes I feel like playing the Shoveller rather than Captain Amazing, and I don't really see that option being available to me now.
just finished writing up an NPC...He has 19 ranks in Profession (Sailor): 8 spend skill point, 2 from the Old Salt feat, and 9 from the Seamanship ability of the Dread Pirate PrC.
Such skills worked nice in 3rd ed. I have a PC who has ranks in Alchemy and Profession(Herbalism). She owns a bathhouse that specializes in herbal soaps
In 4th ed, however, these skills don't exist anymore. It is now assumed to be fluff. I.e. if I say my PC is a herbalist, the DM has to take my word on it. There are no stats to prove that I am (though of course I can write it down in my charsheet).
Gomez
Such skills worked nice in 3rd ed. I have a PC who has ranks in Alchemy and Profession(Herbalism). She owns a bathhouse that specializes in herbal soaps
-Good quality stuff, there.
In 4th ed, however, these skills don't exist anymore. It is now assumed to be fluff. I.e. if I say my PC is a herbalist, the DM has to take my word on it. There are no stats to prove that I am (though of course I can write it down in my charsheet).
Gomez
-Yep...Don't like it. Don't like it one bit.
What was the thing about the prior versions of The Matrix that made them fail every time?
Lack of choice, even an subconscient one.
I don't like the system either. Skill points give me a choice I can take.
-As Diffan mentioned, the choice to have your character good at something..."extraneous" is not related to rules. I can say my character is a sailor in his background, and he's a sailor. He knows sailing things. I just don't personally like the idea that there is nothing on the sheet that reflects that "extraneous" ability and skills.
-As Diffan mentioned, the choice to have your character good at something..."extraneous" is not related to rules. I can say my character is a sailor in his background, and he's a sailor. He knows sailing things. I just don't personally like the idea that there is nothing on the sheet that reflects that "extraneous" ability and skills.
Neither do I. I had very difficult sessions with players who tried to do something they couldn't "because it's in our background story" without any reflection on the character sheet. If it ain't there then you can't is my motto since then.
Neither do I. I had very difficult sessions with players who tried to do something they couldn't "because it's in our background story" without any reflection on the character sheet. If it ain't there then you can't is my motto since then.
-Agreed.
-Or, at least, it's a shot in the dark. I mean, I know very little about tying knots- some vestige from Boy Scouts, but that's about it- but, theoretically, I could tie a very good hang man's knot if I tried to make one.
-Likewise, on a related note, I play baseball in recreation. I can't throw a curveball for the life of me (my secret shame :surrender), but I can throw a pretty decent split-finger fastball. I've put some work into that pitch. I'd be a bit angered if someone who put no work in it whatsoever could throw it just as well as me. Get it?
WotC hasn't done much with either since 3E came out. But recently, though? They'll both be getting articles in DDI, Ravenloft is getting a new novel line, and when discussing the "one setting per year" plan, both of them were mentioned.
Yeah. I noticed Ravenloft is getting a lot of pub recently. I suspect they will do something with it
Profession (Wis)- add half your level plus ability modifier. Every character is trained in 1 profession of his/her choice. Any player can spend 1 week plying his/her trade or Profession to earn money. Roll d20 and add your profession modifier. That total is the amout of gold you receive with 1 week of hard work.
There!
But some people can just throw it better or whatever... natural talents as it were. Hells, the first real computer I had I put together with hand-me-down parts and no instruction manual for any of it, took 2 hours with it, and I'd never even seen the inside of a semi-modern computer, much less taken a computer course in the last 10 years from when I did it. Just made sense to me and so I did it, no 'ranks' in the skill to speak of... but I did it anyway.
-Sure...Your INT bonus gets added to your d20 roll. You passed the DC.
-And something more difficult, more advanced, your INT bonus with your d20 roll might not be enough to pass that DC.
Just seems silly to demand that sheet and backstory match up perfectly to me... people forget or don't bother to write this stuff down because they don't think its going to come up or figure that it's covered by the story or whatever. Any way it goes, fluff should override mechanics in certain circumstances, and that's definitely one of them to me.
-Ho, ho! You've never played in one of my games before.
Nope, no intention of doing so either, as I suspect our styles are semi-incompatible as far as that goes. :P ;) :D
-What, you wouldn't want to play in a game I ran? I am hurt...
I'd just like to play a good game again. I've been here in China for about 4 years now and stores don't have anything. They do have a few novels to read rom DR and FR, but they are limited... I've not sat as a player in a long time.
-Just so you know, you'd have to come to me. ;) :P
Yeah. I noticed Ravenloft is getting a lot of pub recently. I suspect they will do something with it
I hope so.
Basicly i think it is best to trust in the developers. With a setting as popular as this they will have worked hard on it to make everyone happy and sell alot more... I think those with an open mind will be pleased. Those with closed minds never are... and are probably the same people down on 4th edition in general.
Nope. I like 4E rules but dislike what I know about the 4E Realms.
And I don't think disliking the 4E Realms means I'm "close-minded", either. There's no reason to be so judgmental.
I hope so.
Yep. I absolutely love Ravenloft. As much as I love the Realms, or maybe a bit more. So I'm definitely looking forward to the new novel line, and hope the setting is published in 2010 (just hope it doesn't get reamed as badly as the Realms. Though Rich saying that demiplanes are still around reassured me a bit).
And I don't think disliking the 4E Realms means I'm "close-minded", either. There's no reason to be so judgmental.
'Course you haven't seen the 4E FRCG yet either. ;)
'Course you haven't seen the 4E FRCG yet either. ;)
-'Course, you don't have to have seen it to make a decision. There is (especially at this point), a plethora of information available to allow someone to come to a conclusion: Don't like it/Neutral/Like it
-Even if there are elements that I like (though, to be honest, concerning the 4-Gotten Realms, I honestly can't think of anything that I do like), that wouldn't offset the fact that I don't like the "background" (The time shift, the Spellplague) that these elements are going to be set in.
-I mean, when was the last time you needed to know every single ingredient in a recipe before you decided whether you liked the dish or not? ;)
-What, you wouldn't want to play in a game I ran? I am hurt...
Bleed and Suffer. :P ;)
As to the 4e Realms... pass. Floating motes of land and a plethora of horrors from the Far Realms are not for me in the slightest... not even remotely thrilled by 4e period to be honest, but hey, if you're into it, I hope it works out for you, just isn't what appeals to me though.
Ya, and he also had a two-sword style.
Yep. Thought it was pretty funny when him and his two companions got to a casino, and one of the games was essentially D&D. Seriously. They played D&D, except that that version of D&D involved gambling. He won because he was a telepath and was reading the DM's mind.
It was... bizarre... to say the least.
-'Course, you don't have to have seen it to make a decision. There is (especially at this point), a plethora of information available to allow someone to come to a conclusion: Don't like it/Neutral/Like it.
Oh I think there's enough information to form a general opinion of whether WotC did something good or bad with the setting, and whether changing the setting was a good idea or not.
But I don't think anyone can rightly say they're open minded to what 4E has to offer for the purposes of gaming without cracking the 4E FRCG (players, your own FR guide will soon follow) open and reading it front to back.
Just as we'll have to wait and see what comes down the fiction pipe with post-spellplague novels.
The 'let's skim it at Borders and then post an opinion online' method just doesn't cut it.
I do think it's good we got as much forwarning as we did though. Gave the online fanbase (and to a lesser degree, word of mouth fanbase) a chance to vent and make the call early and cut their losses, if they so desired.
Me...I want it all.
Tell me you're not suggesting we suck it up and just go buy it to see if we like it or not... seems a little like saying one should buy a car and then test drive it to see if its going to work or not. Slight price difference of course, but you get the point I'm sure. ;)
Just saying that if all the pre-release info hasn't turned you off to the setting, then it's worth it to buy a copy of the FRCG and see for yourself if it's good or not.
After all, this is the Realms we're talking about. Don't you think the setting deserves a complete read-through of its latest offering?
Like Ed says (see my sig) we need to wait and see what they do first. The "see"ing part of that is a good read-through, IMNSHO. ;)
Cant wait for the 4ed Realms. From all that I've read, it's gonna be a great place to adventure again (this comming from a long time FR supporter).
I agree. One thing that was starting to bother me about 3e canon was that the bad guys rarely, if ever, won in the stories. Don't get me wrong, I love it when the hero saves the day but........every time? I know people can point out stuff from GHotR to counter my words, but from the novels I've read it never seems to happen except The Kingdom of Dark Arrows. That, IMO, was great.
Just like a song from Nightwish says: "[...]It's not the end, not the kingdom come, it is the journey that matters[...]"
But they never won free, they had to loose a lot to win in the end. Araevin had to renounce his love for Ilselvele to save the Crusade. Danilo lost her half-sister to end the threat of the Dreamspheres. The elves lost the towers of the moon & sun and a lot of their people when Kymil Nymesin attacked them. So yes, they deserve to win in the end, because they are the ones doing all the sacrifices.
In many ways, yes. Troops lives and destruction to property are forefront in my mind. But in all the FR novels i've read and many instances found in GHotR you'll find that it's an over balancing "good will alwasy triumph". Just once, I wouldn't mind reading where the good lost or at least came out even. And it doesn't even have to be the main plot, it could be a sub-plot. Hence why I enjoyed the end of The Hunter's Blades trilogy. The dwarves couldn't push back Obould and were forced to watch as his Kingdom grew and prospered.
The fact that you don't see much evil winning in novels doesn't means they don't win. They do, and you never find out because they most efective evil is the one you don't see, as soon as the forces of good spot a problem they are going to do everything they can to stop them, and the laws of probability dictate that it's more likely that something is stoped.
The Zhents in LMT got Hillsafar for example.
The fact that you don't see much evil winning in novels doesn't means they don't win. They do, and you never find out because they most efective evil is the one you don't see, as soon as the forces of good spot a problem they are going to do everything they can to stop them, and the laws of probability dictate that it's more likely that something is stoped.
Wasn't Hillsfar, at least in part, destroyed by the Fey'ri? But I was happy that they (the Zhents) got it though. I was actually going to reference that but I forgot what the name of the series was.
'Course you haven't seen the 4E FRCG yet either. ;)
I'd like to know just what, exactly, you are implying here.
There's no shortage of information about the 4E Realms that's already available. From what I've seen so far, I can reasonably conclude that the new setting will not be to my preferences.
I've stated more than once that I intend to give the FRCS a look to see if there's anything within that I might use. I would not, however, use the setting as it is straight out of the book. It's possible you haven't seen me write that. If on the other hand you are simply being disingenuous (as in trying to imply with a "wink" that I'm a closeminded person), then I strongly suggest that you stop.
I agree. One thing that was starting to bother me about 3e canon was that the bad guys rarely, if ever, won in the stories. Don't get me wrong, I love it when the hero saves the day but........every time?
The heroes win everytime where, within the novels?
The protagonists of novels usually do win at least a partial victory, especially in heroic fantasy fiction (which is what the FR setting is supposed to be about). That is simply the nature of how these novels work. That doesn't mean good wins in every conflict that ever takes place in the setting, it just means novels generally aren't written about protagonists that utterly fail and die ignominious deaths.
The conflicts that take place within the novels represent only a tiny portion of what occurs within the setting. Therefore I don't think one can just look at the novels and conclude that the FR is a setting where the heroes win everytime. And for what it's worth, even the 4E core rulebooks strongly suggest that PCs stick to either good alignments or be unaligned (that is, D&D is still about heroic fantasy, even if some people out there may prefer to play villains).
Wasn't Hillsfar, at least in part, destroyed by the Fey'ri?
Not really. The city is still there and now under the control of the Zhents. That is definitely as a case of evil making some headway in a novel.
As for the orc kingdom you mention, according to The Orc King, that kingdom is a shiny beacon of peace and hope around the time the 4E Realms campaign starts.
All posters who said things like "Dye Mystra", have been reported for harassment and trolling. We don't apreciate trolls around here. Especially ones who never post around here and come to troll any time they have to troll about the true and interesting Forgotten Realms, not the crap that is going to be released. If you don't like the realms, go play eberron and leave Forgotten Realms to those who love the setting.
My gaming friends(s), two separate groups from all walks of life (from ne'er-do-wells, to my main group of 8-professionals) are all 30+ years old. We've been with D&D since AD&D. To a man (and one woman) - we've been following the realm histories/novels from the late 80s/early 90s and we still do till now.
We loved the writing, the spectacle, the scenery, the history, the fallen empires... but a single god in control of something as all-power of the weave? How... sickening. I didn't mind the weave, but it should have been in NO ONE's area of control. Especially not a biased god as such. The alliance of Good-guys-that-all-get-along-and-are-super-powerful... vs disparate "evil" really rubbed us the wrong way. Hell - on more than one occasion the super-goodies would get all together with some super-neutrals... and then whoop on the "evil antagonist of the day".
A darker, more "balanced", forgotten realms? Excellent. The days of the Elven Archmages, teaming up with the Chosen, who in-turn team up with some random super clerics of some triad-alliance of Illmater/Helm/Torm/Sune/whoever are long past.
Also, naysayers usually are the ones that outnumber supporters in terms of how vocal they are. However, as you can see by this post, and the tons of previous posts about "oh the realms are doomed!" - you will notice, surprisingly to you I'm sure, that the supporters of the new realms outnumber the naysayers - by a 2 to 1 ratio in several of these confrontations.
So, in conclusion, we do like the Realms - that is why we continue to play it. If you don't like what the Realms are now, feel free to go make up your own "place".
The Realms IS what is now - the 4E realms. Anything else - is your own imagination. And we, the majority (through simple arithmetic) - are thankful for it.
Sam W.
-I mean, when was the last time you needed to know every single ingredient in a recipe before you decided whether you liked the dish or not? ;)
One would think you would taste the dish, before making the assumption of dislike or like.
Otherwise, I would despise Cream of Mushroom soup and Crab Dip (which I don't) simply because I dislike all other presentations of Mushroom and Crab (Which I do)
However, there is much to be said for self-fulfilling prophecies. Both regarding cuisine, and everything else. E.g. Oh my god! Snails! Disgusting! I will never try Escargot!
We loved the writing, the spectacle, the scenery, the history, the fallen empires... but a single god in control of something as all-power of the weave?
You have Shar if you don't like Mystra. I do and I think Shar should be stripped of the SW because it's not fitting for a goddess like her to have the power of magic (same argument, different point of view).
How... sickening. I didn't mind the weave, but it should have been in NO ONE's area of control.
Yes, it must be in control of a god, that's how the realms work, they have a god for every aspect of existance, and having something as important as the weave without a god is going against how the realms work.
Especially not a biased god as such.
There are lots of stories that prove the contrary, that Mystra CAN'T play favorites or AO would strip her from her position.
The alliance of Good-guys-that-all-get-along-and-are-super-powerful
Good as a force has much more cohesion (a Tome Archoon from Celestia would rather have a Bralani Eladrin as partner than a Baatezu), and it's perfectly fine that powerful individuals who fight for good do it together to be more effective, which doesn't means they don't argue, because they do, they simply know that there are things more important to do.
vs disparate "evil" really rubbed us the wrong way.
Evil defeats itself more than it's defeated by good, that's a natural law and the realms is the only setting I've known that follows this rule. Evil is selfish and want's to be the one in power, so if another evil threatens his power evil does the best it can to stop it. That's why you will never see evil doing the Injustice League, because they can't.
Hell - on more than one occasion the super-goodies would get all together with some super-neutrals...
A neutral person preffers good over evil all the time. Evil would opress, kill and endanger them, while good would never do that. Therefore it's perfectly logical than good and neutral groups band together to defeat evil.
and then whoop on the "evil antagonist of the day".
That's the premise of fantasy, that in the end good wins. It has nothing to do with the Realms. LotR has it, Dragonlance has it, even in oWoD the Mage traditions were victorious in the end.
we've been following the realm histories/novels from the late 80s/early 90s and we still do till now
who in-turn team up with some random super clerics of some triad-alliance of Illmater/Helm/Torm/Sune/whoever are long past.
I don't get it. If you know about the realms as you claim, then you would know about the Triad, but here you are showing that you don't know who is the triad, therefore I can't believe you when you claim you've followed the realms for so much time. I started in 2002 and I know what the triad is.
A darker, more "balanced", forgotten realms?
The realms are pefectly balanced the way they are. Evil has more raw power than good (Shar, Bane, Cyric), lots of evil groups: The Zhentarim, The Fire Knives, The Twisted Rune, The Red Wizards, The Telflam Shadowlords. Just because you don't see much of them doesn't means they don't exist, and they are powerful.
Also, naysayers usually are the ones that outnumber supporters in terms of how vocal they are. However, as you can see by this post, and the tons of previous posts about "oh the realms are doomed!" - you will notice, surprisingly to you I'm sure, that the supporters of the new realms outnumber the naysayers - by a 2 to 1 ratio in several of these confrontations.
You don't hear much about us, but doesn't means we are not there. All my group hates the new realms, all Roleplayers from Argentina I know hate the new realms. Lots of people in many RPG boards I frecuent hate the new realms.
The Realms IS what is now - the 4E realms.
They won't last, with the destruction they have done to it and the lack of support it will recieve in 4th edition (only two books) the setting will die in no time.
And we, the majority (through simple arithmetic) - are thankful for it.
That's a fallacy, you don't have the exact numbers of all RPG players around the world who like the new edition versus those who hate it. Numbers in a board don't reveal anything.
The Realms IS what is now - the 4E realms. Anything else - is your own imagination. And we, the majority (through simple arithmetic) - are thankful for it.
Sam W.
-Can I borrow that arithmetic? Determining the "dark figure" of something is impossible, so I figure it might be pretty awesome to enter into my field of work (criminology) with the answer to the largest, indeterminable question (dark figure of crime) all solved and ready to go.
One would think you would taste the dish, before making the assumption of dislike or like.
-So, you are telling me that I should (I believe someone else brought it up) I should eat feces, before I make the assumption that I dislike it or not?
I agree. One thing that was starting to bother me about 3e canon was that the bad guys rarely, if ever, won in the stories. Don't get me wrong, I love it when the hero saves the day but........every time? I know people can point out stuff from GHotR to counter my words, but from the novels I've read it never seems to happen except The Kingdom of Dark Arrows. That, IMO, was great.
-That's funny...Most people (based on general observations) seem to think that in the "3e era" evil was always "winning", gaining power, etc.
And for the record, 4ed Realms will almost assuredly NOT fail, and will most likely usher in new FR players in a way that the "old Realms" could not.
-Really? Mind sharing how the "old Realms" failed to usher in new Forgotten Realms players?
Yes, it must be in control of a god, that's how the realms work, they have a god for every aspect of existance, and having something as important as the weave without a god is going against how the realms work.
Thank god that's not how the realms work now!
You've obviously lied about the time you've followed the realms, otherwise you could never think this. There are lots of stories that prove the contrary, that Mystra CAN'T play favorites or AO would strip her from her position.
Doesn't matter what AO said when the vast vast majority of the "Chosen" prove otherwise. That is why they are called "Chosen" - not "The Balanced Few"
Good as a force has much more cohesion (a Tome Archoon from Celestia would rather have a Bralani Eladrin as partner than a Baatezu), and it's perfectly fine that powerful individuals who fight for good do it together to be more effective, which doesn't means they don't argue, because they do, they simply know that there are things more important to do.
Horrible assumption based on Disney "good" vs "evil". Look around you at the world today. Shar's definition of why she is not "Disney Evil" (Hopelessness is something all men know of, while happiness is a much rarer gift) - in conjunction with Shades' "we want our empire back, you owe us" is a much grayer region (yet still, indisputably not-nice-guy) of evil.
Evil defeats itself more than it's defeated by good, that's a natural law and the realms is the only setting I've known that follows this rule. Evil is selfish and want's to be the one in power, so if another evil threatens his power evil does the best it can to stop it. That's why you will never see evil doing the Injustice League, because they can't.
Because History, and Current Events really back up that claim. No really. They do...
A neutral person preffers good over evil all the time. Evil would opress, kill and endanger them, while good would never do that. Therefore it's perfectly logical than good and neutral groups band together to defeat evil.
Again - Disney Evil. A Neutral person (and a good person too) - would definitely want to reap the benefits of Capitalism and be blind to any adverse effect on his fellow man rather than give much more than take in the put that is Socialism.
You seem to be thinking evil is a "Sacrifice your sister and read the intestines for your neighbor" sort of evil. Think again.
That's the premise of fantasy, that in the end good wins. It has nothing to do with the Realms. LotR has it, Dragonlance has it, even in oWoD the Mage traditions were victorious in the end.
Ah - now it shines. I see your bias. No only is it incorrect that the Traditions "won at the end" (you should actually read old Wod - they've been losing for a long time, and only 50% of the scenarios in the reckoning actually have them winning).
Lame
Unintelligent? Obtuse?
This proves you don't know **** about the realms, you are a liar and a troll and your oppinion matters nothing.
Overwhelming bias coupled with personal attacks only servers to prove you are incorrect. Very simple debating rule - you attacked me personally. Stick to the facts. I can almost see the anger as you swear and double tap keys in frustration.
You don't hear much about us, but doesn't means we are not there. All my group hates the new realms, all Roleplayers from Argentina I know hate the new realms. Lots of people in many RPG boards I frecuent hate the new realms.
Thats great. I'm sure lots do hate it. All signs point to fact that more love it!
They won't last, with the destruction they have done to it and the lack of support it will recieve in 4th edition (only two books) the setting will die in no time.
I'm sure sales will prove your "death of a setting".
That's a fallacy, you don't have the exact numbers of all RPG players around the world who like the new edition versus those who hate it. Numbers in a board don't reveal anything.
Maybe you should read what I stated? I said I didn't have the numbers but yes - numbers on the board DO reveal something. They reveal, that more people are willing to talk about how much they are excited about new FR than those who are disappointed.
Furthermore, you are a proven liar because you don't know what the Triad is and you have told us you've followed the realms for decades (quoted below). If that where true then you would know what the Triad is.
Again - insults with no basis. Just because a person doesn't know off the top of their head something, doesn't mean they haven't read it.
I'm sure I can ask you about anything in any book at anytime right? And you don't have to look it up?
So much anger.
-Really? Mind sharing how the "old Realms" failed to usher in new Forgotten Realms players?
Simple. Bloat.
Imagine if you will that you are a new player to D&D. You are looking for a campaign setting to play in. You hear about FR and think "Cool. Sounds good!" Then you do a little investigating and realize that not only is there approximatly 20 years worth of "cannon" novels and short stories, but that it would take you the gods only know how long to dig through it all and find out how much, if any, you wanted (or needed) to use.
Now hold on before you say "Nuh uh! Do what a good DM would do and use only what you want or need, and cut out the rest!" Your right. An experienced DM would and should do that. But were talking about a new player here. He shouldnt have to cut out 80% of a campaign setting to suit him for the simple fact of it not being that he doesnt like it, but there is simply too much crap to sift through!
This Realms "reset" should and I dare say will bring in more new players to the mix (which is absolutely essential if you want the Realms to continue to the next 20 years) that the bloated mess that was the "old" Realms.
Also remember, like I said on a previous page, im a long time Realms supporter. But I recognize that perhaps it's time to make the Realms forgotten again. I look forward to exploring this new Realms. Indeed, had 4ed FR been more of the same, I'd have been dissapointed. I've been exploring FR for a long time, and it'll be a breath of fresh air to go to Tyrmanther (sp?) and not know what to expect...
Simple. Bloat.
Imagine if you will that you are a new player to D&D. You are looking for a campaign setting to play in. You hear about FR and think "Cool. Sounds good!" Then you do a little investigating and realize that not only is there approximatly 20 years worth of "cannon" novels and short stories, but that it would take you the gods only know how long to dig through it all and find out how much, if any, you wanted (or needed) to use.
Now hold on before you say "Nuh uh! Do what a good DM would do and use only what you want or need, and cut out the rest!" Your right. An experienced DM would and should do that. But were talking about a new player here. He shouldnt have to cut out 80% of a campaign setting to suit him for the simple fact of it not being that he doesnt like it, but there is simply too much crap to sift through!
This Realms "reset" should and I dare say will bring in more new players to the mix (which is absolutely essential if you want the Realms to continue to the next 20 years) that the bloated mess that was the "old" Realms.
Also remember, like I said on a previous page, im a long time Realms supporter. But I recognize that perhaps it's time to make the Realms forgotten again. I look forward to exploring this new Realms. Indeed, had 4ed FR been more of the same, I'd have been dissapointed. I've been exploring FR for a long time, and it'll be a breath of fresh air to go to Tyrmanther (sp?) and not know what to expect...
-None of that proves your point. Assumptions based on assumptions.
-You do realize that the "old Realms" ushered in every single person who is a fan of the setting right now, correct?
-None of that proves your point. Assumptions based on assumptions.
Do you really, really believe that if the Realms were soooo successfull that they would do this drastic of a reset??
No, they wouldnt. They are doing it because FR popularity is dwindling.
Like I said, veteran players keep the game sustained (somewhat), but new players keep it thriving.
P.S. It's not "assumptions" that there is bloat. It's fact.
Can I borrow that arithmetic? Determining the "dark figure" of something is impossible, so I figure it might be pretty awesome to enter into my field of work (criminology) with the answer to the largest, indeterminable question (dark figure of crime) all solved and ready to go.
You're quite amusing Lord Karsus. Normally, I do not reply to the vast collection of posters that fall within the confines of your personality. Those who are immensely proud (usually of more than just career, a lot of times due to a cultural heritage as well) and insist on bringing their specific area knowledge and applying it to a completely unrelated topic, in an attempt overpower the argument with verbal muscle.
However, as I sure sociologists and criminologists would not begrudge simple arithmetic. I will enlighten you.
We have, at the Attorney General, applied qualitative studies to quantify a collection of feedback on a process that I cannot mention to you here.
This was done through the assistance of very celebrated and well published professor, who also runs a consulting company. In essence, using a completely unsolicited set of data from a certain event (e.g. people's feedback on the board regarding Forgotten Realms), you can actually quantify the overall public concerns/opinions. Yes. Quantify.
While I cannot share with you the details of the analysis, should you require some done - do not hesitate to contact Dr. Conrad Winn at COMPAS Research.
Dr. Winn holds the Ph.D. from the world-ranked Wharton Business School and is author of many books and professional articles in the field of research and communication.
Compas Main PageSelect COMPAS - Who we are - The Founder
However, you will obviously by now, have realised that the dark figure of crime, has much much much less in common, with analysing an unsolicited data-set (such a message board, mailed or email feedback, etc) from a minor portion of the player base - and applying that as a whole. It is actually a very simple process. It really comes down to the PROVEN fact that you need a VERY small sample to obtain an accurate public opinion poll with a less than 2% margin of error.
-So, you are telling me that I should (I believe someone else brought it up) I should eat feces, before I make the assumption that I dislike it or not?
Selectively Obtuse. I believe someone of your intelligence will see this and I would not normally dignify it with a response. However, as I have already broken a rule above...
You mention ingredients and dishes. I mention examples of both as a clear counter within the constraints of your argument.
Your response... is bodily waste as an ingredient.
Selectively Obtuse. And hence, why I'm done with this thread. Good day!
Sam W.
Do you really, really believe that if the Realms were soooo successfull that they would do this drastic of a reset??
No, they wouldnt. They are doing it because FR popularity is dwindling.
Like I said, veteran players keep the game sustained (somewhat), but new players keep it thriving.
-That's your opinion. Can you produce a shred of evidence to support it?
-A company does not necessary change things because they are doing 'bad', whatever 'bad' represents, be it lack of interest, lack of profit, whatever.
-I could have the best hot dog cart in the entire world. I could be making $25,000 every day with it, because people like the taste of my hot dogs. But, let's say I want to make more. I want to make $30,000 every day. Thus, I change my hot dogs. Was there anything wrong with my hot dogs to begin with?
-That's your opinion. Can you produce a shred of evidence to support it?
-A company does not necessary change things because they are doing 'bad', whatever 'bad' represents, be it lack of interest, lack of profit, whatever.
-I could have the best hot dog cart in the entire world. I could be making $25,000 every day with it, because people like the taste of my hot dogs. But, let's say I want to make more. I want to make $30,000 every day. Thus, I change my hot dogs. Was there anything wrong with my hot dogs to begin with?
1. They've reset it. Need more proof?
2.They do if they are interested in turning a profit, which I daresay WotC is.
3.An unwise buisness move. I'm willing to bet WotC is a bit more savvy than that.
Look, im not going to sit here and argue with you about why they are reseting it. Only thing im going to say is that if FR was making WotC so much money that they didnt know what to do with it all, they wouldnt be making such drastic sweeping changes. You can bet on that. They would be making damn sure that the realms continued to run like they always have.
You're quite amusing Lord Karsus.
-I try.
We have, at the Attorney General, applied qualitative studies to quantify a collection of feedback on a process that I cannot mention to you here.
This was done through the assistance of very celebrated and well published professor, who also runs a consulting company. In essence, using a completely unsolicited set of data from a certain event (e.g. people's feedback on the board regarding Forgotten Realms), you can actually quantify the overall public concerns/opinions. Yes. Quantify.
While I cannot share with you the details of the analysis, should you require some done - do not hesitate to contact Dr. Conrad Winn at COMPAS Research.
Dr. Winn holds the Ph.D. from the world-ranked Wharton Business School and is author of many books and professional articles in the field of research and communication.
Compas Main PageSelect COMPAS - Who we are - The Founder
However, you will obviously by now, have realised that the dark figure of crime, has much much much less in common, with analysing an unsolicited data-set (such a message board, mailed or email feedback, etc) from a minor portion of the player base - and applying that as a whole. It is actually a very simple process. It really comes down to the PROVEN fact that you need a VERY small sample to obtain an accurate public opinion poll with a less than 2% margin of error.
-Nice...And you say I am the amusing one. You have a career! :P
-That said, however, if people's feedback on the board regarding Forgotten Realms is the basis on forming quantifiable opinions, than the public sentiment concerning this is fairly negative.
-The original point, however, is that no one has the numbers, not me, not you.
Selectively Obtuse. I believe someone of your intelligence will see this and I would not normally dignify it with a response. However, as I have already broken a rule above...
You mention ingredients and dishes. I mention examples of both as a clear counter within the constraints of your argument.
Your response... is bodily waste as an ingredient.
Selectively Obtuse.
Sam W.
-Not particularly, no. How far must one go to "taste" the setting? Is not what we already have available enough to make a judgment call? In theory, someone doesn't like the "smell" of the 4-Gotten Realms, the "seasonings" of the 4-Gotten Realms, the "texture" of the 4-Gotten Realms, the "sight" of the 4-Gotten Realms. They haven't sat down and "tasted" the 4-Gotten Realms, nor do they want to. What are the odds that, upon sitting down and "tasting" the food that contains so many flavors, smells, and so on that they do not like, they suddenly find themselves liking the "dish" as a whole. It's entirely too idealistic to say that this would be the case. I dislike cream of mushroom soup and crab dip, as well as mushrooms and crabs...
1. They've reset it. Need more proof?
-This does not bolster your claim.
3.An unwise buisness move. I'm willing to bet WotC is a bit more savvy than that.
-Rich Baker has said numerous times that all of this is a huge gamble, on the designers' part.
Look, im not going to sit here and argue with you about why they are reseting it. Only thing im going to say is that if FR was making WotC so much money that they didnt know what to do with it all, they wouldnt be making such drastic sweeping changes. You can bet on that. They would be making damn sure that the realms continued to run like they always have.
-Did you not just read the example I gave to you?
-This does not bolster your claim.
-Rich Baker has said numerous times that all of this is a huge gamble, on the designers' part.
-Did you not just read the example I gave to you?
I like how you skipped my #2.
And it does more to bolster my claim than your "it was doing great and bringing in tons of players but lets reset it ha ha!" theory.
And as for being a huge gamble, sure, I can see that. FR needed some help, they decided to do some drastic spring cleaning as it were (fully knowing they were going to pee off alot of fans), and hope that said cleaning brings in wave after wave of new players.
I like how you skipped my #2.
-It is not relevant.
And it does more to bolster my claim than your "it was doing great and bringing in tons of players but lets reset it ha ha!" theory.
-Not particularly, no. Not reaching a particular benchmark does not mean that a person/product/organization/whatever is "bad", "doing bad", "is bad", or whatever word or words you want to use.
-Going back to my example, were my hot dogs doing "bad"? They brought be $20,000 every week, using the current economy. But, I changed them, didn't I? Why?
-It is not relevant.
-Not particularly, no. Not reaching a particular benchmark does not mean that a person/product/organization/whatever is "bad", "doing bad", "is bad", or whatever word or words you want to use.
-Going back to my example, were my hot dogs doing "bad"? They brought be $20,000 every week, using the current economy. But, I changed them, didn't I? Why?
If WotC sets the bar for FR to make say....2 million a yr, and it only brings in 1.45 million, then they are probably going to seriously evaluate what needs to change in order to meet the required 2 million. It happens all the time, world wide, in all buisnesses. Which, ultimately, is what WotC is.
I already told you about the hot dogs. If your making $25,000 a week, and change them totally in hopes of making $30,000 a week, that is terrible buisness sense. You can be pretty sure that is NOT what this reset is about.
If WotC sets the bar for FR to make say....2 million a yr, and it only brings in 1.45 million, then they are probably going to seriously evaluate what needs to change in order to meet the required 2 million. It happens all the time, world wide, in all buisnesses. Which, ultimately, is what WotC is.
-Excellent! You've gotten to the root of what's going on here. Now, if WotC changes their own business practices, and decides that they want to make 2 million theoretical dollars per year on the product instead of 1.45 theoretical dollars on the product, is the product somehow inherently flawed in any way?
I already told you about the hot dogs. If your making $25,000 a week, and change them totally in hopes of making $30,000 a week, that is terrible buisness sense. You can be pretty sure that is NOT what this reset is about.
-Rich Baker has already, more or less, said as much, so...
-Excellent! You've gotten to the root of what's going on here. Now, if WotC changes their own business practices, and decides that they want to make 2 million theoretical dollars per year on the product instead of 1.45 theoretical dollars on the product, is the product somehow inherently flawed in any way?
-Rich Baker has already, more or less, said as much, so...
1. Your assuming that they (WotC) are amping up from a theoretical 1.45 million to a theoretical 2 million dollars. My example showed (or was implying)that they wanted to make 2 million dollars from the get-go (to cover developement cost, pay for the books themselves, pay the designers, artist etc.), and only brought in 1.45 million...not enough to make a sizeable profit (as opposed to making a nice profit but wanting more) and cover all of the development cost.
2. And really, it doesent suprise me that Mr. Baker has "more of less" said so. If I was in that position, I probably wouldnt come out and say "yeah FR is doing ok, but slowly but surely, were losing market share to other campaign settings. Because of this, were doing a reboot, sorry guys, but its this way or FR goes into the crapper."
WotC is staffed by gamers, but it's owned by buisnessmen.
-Rich Baker has already, more or less, said as much, so...
Ah ok, where is that thread? Can you reproduce that fact? That would be most helpful to some people.
-That's funny...Most people (based on general observations) seem to think that in the "3e era" evil was always "winning", gaining power, etc.
I don't see how, basing my opinion on novels I've read. Wonton destruction and deaths of a few main characters, sure that's bound to happen, but never the bad guys winning.
1. Your assuming that they (WotC) are amping up from a theoretical 1.45 million to a theoretical 2 million dollars. My example showed (or was implying)that they wanted to make 2 million dollars from the get-go (to cover developement cost, pay for the books themselves, pay the designers, artist etc.), and only brought in 1.45 million...not enough to make a sizeable profit (as opposed to making a nice profit but wanting more) and cover all of the development cost.
-Firstly, you did not answer the question that was posed: if WotC changes their own business practices, and decides that they want to make 2 million theoretical dollars per year on the product instead of 1.45 theoretical dollars on the product, is the product somehow inherently flawed in any way?
-Anyway, your argument is flawed in the sense that "thiis" (the current setting) is the way things have been "done" for years. There is nothing to suggest that, in recent days, there has been a meteoric drop in sales concerning the Forgotten Realms. A search on Amazon.com has showed, over the years, that the FRCS, and other campaign-setting related materials were selling well, in relation to other RPG materials. Forgotten Realms novels, we have no numbers, but they seem to all "matter" now, in relation to the setting, as opposed to in the past, when many were minor adventures that did not matter, in the grand scheme. Meaning that, in my view, more people would want to read them, casual fan, hardcore fan, whatever. Thus, all that said, it is more feasible that, WotC decided to "amp up" the income, rather than the idea that the income was low and dropping to begin with.
2. And really, it doesent suprise me that Mr. Baker has "more of less" said so. If I was in that position, I probably wouldnt come out and say "yeah FR is doing ok, but slowly but surely, were losing market share to other campaign settings. Because of this, were doing a reboot, sorry guys, but its this way or FR goes into the crapper."
-See above. Forgotten Realms products, over the last few months, when searches were made by boards members, show that Forgotten Realms products have been selling fairly well, in relation to other RPG materials out there, and have been outselling many of the "competitor books" (other WotC products).
Ah ok, where is that thread? Can you reproduce that fact? That would be most helpful to some people.
-You are free to navigate the Ask-the-Author thread yourself. Me, I want no part of it.
:PI don't see how, basing my opinion on novels I've read. Wonton destruction and deaths of a few main characters, sure that's bound to happen, but never the bad guys winning.
-The overall feel is that "evil" has steadily been on the rise, more so than in the past.
The Realms IS what is now - the 4E realms. Anything else - is your own imagination. And we, the majority (through simple arithmetic) - are thankful for it.
Thats some weird math you're into. Nearly everyone here thinks the 4e realms is a hunk of junk
I'd like to know just what, exactly, you are implying here.
I don't think I'm implying anything.
I'm just stating fact. To wit: You haven't seen the FR Campaign Guide, much less read it from cover to cover.
And of course neither have I.
There's no shortage of information about the 4E Realms that's already available. From what I've seen so far, I can reasonably conclude that the new setting will not be to my preferences.
There is a shortage, in that the specifics of new setting aren't available to the public yet.
As I posted earlier, I think there's enough information out already for people to form a general opinion about the setting.
It's been enough for lots of folks to say (like you) that they won't use the setting.
My point is that for those that are on the fence, and for those who have gotten over their anger and had time to think on it, a thorough reading of the FRCG is in order before making the final call.
I've stated more than once that I intend to give the FRCS a look to see if there's anything within that I might use.
That's a good start. I encourage others to look through it also.
I would not, however, use the setting as it is straight out of the book. It's possible you haven't seen me write that.
I don't think I have. But that's neither here nor there.
What I'm curious to know is whether you're open to the possibility that (like the 4E rules, which you seem to be opening up to) the 4E FRCG might just surprise you.
If on the other hand you are simply being disingenuous (as in trying to imply with a "wink" that I'm a close-minded person), then I strongly suggest that you stop.
Relax, Rinon. Everything is OK.
I'm cool with your decision not to go for the setting based on what's been released about it so far.
I just don't think you're as open-minded as you say you are about what else the setting has to offer that we haven't seen yet. You could be missing out on something good.
::::::::::::::::::
I've discovered that learning the 4E rules-set aside, playing in the 4E Realms is a lot like playing in the 3E Realms. Granted my experiences are limited to Deepingdale, the Thunder Peaks and Cormyr, but I’ve found nothing having to do with the Spellplague business gets in the way of me running my 4E game.
I’d wager the Realms will still be a busy place in 4E, loaded with backstories and adventure hooks, yet still just as full of room for Realms DMs to ignore what they want and use what they want, without fear of the setting or the rules interfering.
Thats some weird math you're into. Nearly everyone here thinks the 4e realms is a hunk of junk
I don't know what the majority of the FR fans think. I believe that the campaign book will do very well. That could be for various reasons like people that left FR have finally returned or people buying it because they want the swordmage class. I do not know what the majority/minority of fans really think about the upcoming book though. We see what some vocal posters think but that means little to me because I do not think they represent much of the audience. That goes for the pro and anti crowds both.
We shall see come August and the next year I guess.
-You are free to navigate the Ask-the-Author thread yourself. Me, I want no part of it.
Nope. Until you can back up that statement with some form of proof it is just an opinion or a gut feeling on your part that has no real substance. Produce the evidence then maybe someone will believe you. ;)
This is why posting "loud and angry" doesn't translate into meaningful consensus.
I have to allow for the fact that the 4E Forgotten Realms may turn out to be a huge disappointment for me. But that doesn’t mean I have to be negative about it in the time before its release.
I choose to see the good. I choose to look forward to the good, because my play experiences in the 4E Realms so far have been good ones.
That has a lot to do with the fact that the 4E Realms has much common with the 3E Realms.
In a lot of the ways that count it's the same setting, just a century older.
yes the 4e rule set is playable but as I said in a different post it really isn't D&D - its a new rule set for fantasy role play. - revolution not evolution. As some one who has been gaming for 30 years using many different rule sets I can translate my characters/campaign but I really don't yet see any reason why I should given all the 1e-3.5e time, effort and money I've invested. 4e mostly reminds me of the coke II - classic coke debacle Coke had about 20 years ago when they were losing some market share to pepsi and tried to change the product to win back market share only to find they had lost their market base and turned off their core market and had to do a bunch of very quick and loud appologies as well as bringing back the original product - WotC may well end up facing a similar problem if they are not careful and willing to keep their core market happy while they try to add market share from elsewhere.
WotC may well end up facing a similar problem if they are not careful and willing to keep their core market happy while they try to add market share from elsewhere.
.....you may be right about that.
But I hope not.
I wish we new more about their market analysis. They were very forthcoming when the 2e to 3E transition took place.
Why not now I wonder?
I’d wager the Realms will still be a busy place in 4E, loaded with backstories and adventure hooks, yet still just as full of room for Realms DMs to ignore what they want and use what they want, without fear of the setting or the rules interfering.
-Of course it will be. Any published campaign setting that doesn't have that as a minimum is lacking, to be polite. The 4-Gotten Realms, however...Is the 4-Gotten Realms.
Nope. Until you can back up that statement with some form of proof it is just an opinion or a gut feeling on your part that has no real substance. Produce the evidence then maybe someone will believe you. ;)
-Everyone already believes me. I have no reason to lie. ;)
Why not now I wonder?
-The internet, I am guessing. It wasn't as prevalent as it is now, then.
-The internet, I am guessing. It wasn't as prevalent as it is now, then.
As a generalist viewpoint that's true. More people are connected to the internet now than there were then.
But things we're thriving D&D-wise on the internet before the 2E to 3E transition happened.
Bulletin Board and mailing lists were the way to go. :embarrass
That's how I learned about WotC's market research for 3E way back when, because they released information through the internet and talked about much of what they'd learned about the gaming public on the internet.
As a generalist viewpoint that's true. More people are connected to the internet now than there were then.
But things we're thriving D&D-wise on the internet before the 2E to 3E transition happened.
Bulletin Board and mailing lists were the way to go. :embarrass
That's how I learned about WotC's market research for 3E way back when, because they released information through the internet and talked about much of what they'd learned about the gaming public on the internet.
-There is also a lot more (seemingly) exchange between designers/authors and the public, so the need to be more cautious and guarded comes up, especially in back and forth conversation.
And considering that you already compared reading 4E to swallowing poison...
Truly... Swordmage was 4E, and it was The Awesome. Or maybe that's just my love for the Tiefling Sorcerer Sarth speaking... Geran was awesome to though. :P
A very smart game designer once said, "Sometimes people with bullhorns just like to hear themselves speak."
This is why posting "loud and angry" doesn't translate into meaningful consensus.
I have to allow for the fact that the 4E Forgotten Realms may turn out to be a huge disappointment for me. But that doesn’t mean I have to be negative about it in the time before its release.
I choose to see the good. I choose to look forward to the good, because my play experiences in the 4E Realms so far have been good ones.
That has a lot to do with the fact that the 4E Realms has much common with the 3E Realms.
In a lot of the ways that count it's the same setting, just a century older.
I've did see good once. Argentina ended with the worst president in it's whole history. We have a left-extremist, former terrorist, raping our constitution and the democratic process. Thanks, but no thanks.
And for Corellon's sake, here it is the quote from RB (you just needed to do a quick search):
Well, sure, of course I'm worried about that. Maybe we're making Star Trek: Next Generation, and we're going to send the setting on a great 7-year run (or however long TNG lasted) that makes it more popular than ever. Or maybe we're making New Coke. We're trying like heck to shoot for the former rather than the latter, but it's not like the New Coke guys set out to create a disaster. They thought they had good reasons for doing what they did, too.
Ultimately, a big revision is a calculated gamble. Given everything I know (and I'm not at liberty to share all of what I know, which is one reason why I may seem more sanguine about the whole thing than some folks here think I should be), I think it will work. But I'm human, and I might be wrong.
Emphasis mine.
Yep. Nothing like comparing game designers to a "left-extremist, former terrorist, raping our constitution and the democratic process" to demonstrate how open-minded and logical ones thought processes are. :D Remember, kids. Terrorism to game design at WotC is a lateral move.
You didn't undestood what I say. I was telling Misc that by "seeing good" we ended in the worst situation of my country's history. We forgot our politicians are cancerous rats and became blind to their corruption.
Also LK, im done arguing. Agree to disagree and all that. I guess my final word on the subject is that in my mind, something had to have broke the camels back for them to do this reset...I doubt the design team woke up one day and said "Hey! Great idea! Reset the Realms, **** off standing fans, and make MONIES!!". But either way, for whatever reason, in the end, im glad it was done.
And for Corellon's sake, here it is the quote from RB (you just needed to do a quick search):
-Thank you, Ayatollah.
Also LK, im done arguing.
-You leave the discussion with questions asked unanswered.
Can get just painful around here at times...
I know. I know.
I must say I hope the new Realms is a big big failure and sells diddly squat
-Thank you, Ayatollah.
No problem. Now we just need to blast the infidel. :P
-Thank you, Ayatollah.
Ironically funny, should you know the translation of "Ayatollah".
Ironically funny, should you know the translation of "Ayatollah".
There is a story behind that nick. And yes, we both know what that means.
Ironically funny, should you know the translation of "Ayatollah".
-Alediran is the Elven Ayatollah. It says as much in my Sig.
-As per another poster, he issues fatwas against 4e. Funny stuff.
As to 4eFR failing and such, I don't really care. I seriously doubt it will, if only for the curiosity factor, but I'm not going to begrudge someone who really enjoys the changes the opportunity to make the most of the new setting simply out of spite. Its not for me from what I know, I'll look at it, probably won't buy it, and move on. All that can be done at this point.
We loved the writing, the spectacle, the scenery, the history, the fallen empires... but a single god in control of something as all-power of the weave? How... sickening. I didn't mind the weave, but it should have been in NO ONE's area of control. Especially not a biased god as such. The alliance of Good-guys-that-all-get-along-and-are-super-powerful... vs disparate "evil" really rubbed us the wrong way. Hell - on more than one occasion the super-goodies would get all together with some super-neutrals... and then whoop on the "evil antagonist of the day".
I don't understand why it's so surprising/offensive that good people will band together to defeat evil. That happens all the time in fantasy novels, whether they are FR novels or not. It is a trope of the genre, like it or not.
The Realms IS what is now - the 4E realms. Anything else - is your own imagination. And we, the majority (through simple arithmetic) - are thankful for it.
Actually, no version of the Realms exists anywhere but in people's imaginations, whether it's official or not.
Also, you have no proof that you are in the majority. Are we supposed to just take your word for it that you are?
Maybe you should read what I stated? I said I didn't have the numbers but yes - numbers on the board DO reveal something. They reveal, that more people are willing to talk about how much they are excited about new FR than those who are disappointed.
Numbers on a messageboard (of which you have no actual data to begin with, only personal observation, which is unreliable) can't be used to prove anything, because the thousands (millions?) of FR players out there don't post on messageboards. You could be right--maybe more people out there love the FR than hate it. But the reverse could also be true.
The bottomline line is, you cannot prove that your statements are factual.
I know. I know.
I must say I hope the new Realms is a big big failure and sells diddly squat
Interesting to see that you'd wish the FR do ultimately die.
Just as a thought: what do you think will Hasbro (you know, the guys who eventually own WotC) do with the FR once they are told that the franchise doesn't bring any/enough money?
Correct answer: they will trash it. They won't bother wasting designers' time (aka money) on a setting that doesn't bring a positive balance. At this time, the FR will be officially dead, at least as a rpg setting.
Perhaps they'll continue running novels in the FR, but they won't bring any more supplements or Dragon/Dungeon articles for it.
Interesting to see that you'd wish the FR do ultimately die.
Just as a thought: what do you think will Hasbro (you know, the guys who eventually own WotC) do with the FR once they are told that the franchise doesn't bring any/enough money?
Correct answer: they will trash it. They won't bother wasting designers' time (aka money) on a setting that doesn't bring a positive balance. At this time, the FR will be officially dead, at least as a rpg setting.
Perhaps they'll continue running novels in the FR, but they won't bring any more supplements or Dragon/Dungeon articles for it.
You know, this "rather dead than red" thing is quickly getting old. Talk about fanaticism right there.
For me it's the best exit. At least that way the rights revert to Ed, so he can deliver them to another company that could restore the Realms to what they truly are, not this mess of retcons and lack of cohesion.
I know. I know.
I must say I hope the new Realms is a big big failure and sells diddly squat
that's optimism at its finest.............
For me it's the best exit. At least that way the rights revert to Ed, so he can deliver them to another company that could restore the Realms to what they truly are, not this mess of retcons and lack of cohesion.
lol, and "reverting" the Realms back to before Spellplauge times wouldn't be another recton/lack of cohesion descision? And for that matter, the chances that it will do better under another company is another gamble that could kill the Realms yet again. Only this time, it's laughable attempt to be "re-born before spellplague" will only demonstrate how pitiful the Realms have become and that it should stay dead and buried.
No, I hope the Realms excceed everyone's expectations and make lots and lots of moeny for decades to come. Optimism and hope is what makes me a Loyalist of the Realms.
Alright its been awhile since I've posted on this forum, but I'm back to make a few points here.
Thank god that's not how the realms work now!
Actually, it is how the realms work. Every aspect of life, from birth, food, water, peace, war, hate, lust, love, to even murder, strife, tyranny, loss, hopelessness, rot, decay, and old age correspond to an FR "portfolio" in which one god or aspect of a god is given dominion over it. Thus, when crops went bad all of a sudden and turned into soupy black goop from a fungus infection, the farmer would curse Moander, the classic god of Rot, and pray to Chauntea , the goddess of agriculture, that the rest of his crop would stay strong for harvest.
Doesn't matter what AO said when the vast vast majority of the "Chosen" prove otherwise. That is why they are called "Chosen" - not "The Balanced Few"
New Mystra (2 ed F&A and on) corrected this. She IS good, thus her interests are in the good of the realms. Because of Ao's restriction on what she can do directly, she uses the chosen as her hands. To balance the fact that the Goddess of the Weave is good, FR introduced the Shadow Weave, a wholly evil duplicate of the Weave for evil spellcasters to use. Granted, only a small amount actually did, but the idea was there for it to be the "Shadow" of the weave. So Mystra had her chosen while Shar had her princes of Shade.
Horrible assumption based on Disney "good" vs "evil". Look around you at the world today. Shar's definition of why she is not "Disney Evil" (Hopelessness is something all men know of, while happiness is a much rarer gift) - in conjunction with Shades' "we want our empire back, you owe us" is a much grayer region (yet still, indisputably not-nice-guy) of evil.
For this, I would recommend novels, but it seems this thread has been bashing those who read novels. So instead, I would suggest to you some FR facts: The Blackstaff allied with the Zhents at one point and gave Fzoul Chembryl a very potent artifact. Rather than resorting to some "Holier than thou" miraculous tactic against the Shades, Cormyr resorted to a war of attrition, throwing ten purple dragon knights at the shades to kill one (I can't remember the exact ratio, but you'll get the point.) The Thayan Civil War is hardly a good side vs an evil side (Same with Sembian Civil War). In fact, it is more or less one evil vs another.
3.0 & 3.5 FR has a darker tone to it, it is not all "High Fantasy" where good wins cleanly. As Karsus put it, alot of the novels have been allowing evil to win.
Again - Disney Evil. A Neutral person (and a good person too) - would definitely want to reap the benefits of Capitalism and be blind to any adverse effect on his fellow man rather than give much more than take in the put that is Socialism.
Now this... hm. I Really do not want to get into an argument as to why Capitalism is not evil and why Socialism is not good. Social systems just are. It is the force behind them and the reasons to use them that make them good or evil.
Ah - now it shines. I see your bias. No only is it incorrect that the Traditions "won at the end" (you should actually read old Wod - they've been losing for a long time, and only 50% of the scenarios in the reckoning actually have them winning).
This really isn't relevant, but I think he might be referring to one of the Ascension stories as opposed to all of them or a differing one.
Thats great. I'm sure lots do hate it. All signs point to fact that more love it!
I'm not taking a stance on overall popularity of the new realms. Personally, however, I do not like what I'm hearing. Do I think it will bomb? Probably not, as WotC and Hasbro are both very successful corporations that probably have very well organized marketing departments. (There's your capitalism at work!)
Also LK, im done arguing. Agree to disagree and all that. I guess my final word on the subject is that in my mind, something had to have broke the camels back for them to do this reset...I doubt the design team woke up one day and said "Hey! Great idea! Reset the Realms, **** off standing fans, and make MONIES!!". But either way, for whatever reason, in the end, im glad it was done.
Well, in the very least, you brought me out of hiding to make a few counter points. Now for my points:
I love Thay and Mulhorand, from the History of the FR, these two get torn asunder by something that I can only call a mimic of a terrible setting: Dragonlance.
I love the Pantheon, again from the same source, it becomes unrecognizable, not to mention the whole "only greater gods exist" thing as opposed to what I pointed out earlier where the gods are aspects of life.
I really can't stand breaking of tradition (this is more for 4th altogether) and losing the original base races/classes to gain a few "fan" favorites is a little irritating to a traditionalist like me. The entire progression reminds me of a MMORPG, which i never really enjoyed to begin with.
I think the Weave is necessary, I'll just leave it at that with regards to my earlier post on the gods being aspects of life.
The things I did like:
The fix of the drow. No more special pantheon!
Shade Empire.
Thats it.
Still, dragonborn? What are we, Dragonlance fans now?
Still, dragonborn? What are we, Dragonlance fans now?
That's funny, because i'm looking at Monsters of Faerun (3.0 source) and there's a monster I'm going to describe here.....
Humanoid creatures believed to be distant cousins of Dragons. Found in wild tribes or serving human masters, their brute strength and sharp claws makes them a deadly threat. They are 8-9 feet tall humanoids with draconic features. Their scaled hides ranged from dark yellow ocher to reddish brown with darker spots or bands. Their faces are decidedly dragonlike, with a long snout, a mane of thick hair, and small hornes swept back behind their heads. They have green wings that lighten to gold or yellow or sometimes wing that match the color of their bodies. Their long, scaled tails are not useful in combat as a dragon's tail is, but their vicious claws certanily are. They speak Draconic....
The creature in description is a Dragonkin and have been in the Realms since at least the beginning of 3rd. Now, i don't know about you but that description does sound alot like draconians from DL yet where's the outrage? Where's the hate and anger of having a species the resembles creatures from DL? So, based on the fact that there are already draconic-type creatures in Faerun, the Dragonborn really aren't that far of a stretch.
Hello Rinon,
I don't think I'm implying anything.
I'm just stating fact. To wit: You haven't seen the FR Campaign Guide, much less read it from cover to cover.
And of course neither have I.
Well, that's obvious. That being said, I'll take your word for it that you weren't implying anything.
That's a good start. I encourage others to look through it also.
Agreed. It's not a bad idea.
What I'm curious to know is whether you're open to the possibility that (like the 4E rules, which you seem to be opening up to) the 4E FRCG might just surprise you.
I'm open to the possibility of anything, really--I reserve the right to change my opinion at a later date.
I expect to like some content in the FRCG, and if that's the case, I can certainly find a way to use it even if I don't want to use a Spellplagued Realms with no Mystra, etc.Relax, Rinon. Everything is OK.
OK.
I'm cool with your decision not to go for the setting based on what's been released about it so far.
I just don't think you're as open-minded as you say you are about what else the setting has to offer that we haven't seen yet. You could be missing out on something good.
Like I said, I do plan to look through the book. It is not unlikely I will like some of the content therein. If I do, I can find some way to use it to my satisfaction. I'm not worried about liking the canon setting as is--there are 3E canon developments that I dislike and would never use.
Research can, of course, be faulty...
And data can be misinterpreted as well.
Just in case it isn't clear, it doesn't really matter to me whether or not tons of people like 4E Realms, or whether or not it sells well. All that matters to me is whether or not I like it.
It's possible (in the sense that anything is possible) I'll check out the FRCS and be blown away (in a good away), but I think it's safe to say that that is unlikely to happen. The changes I know about so far do not suit my preferences, and I have my own ideas about where I want the setting to go in the future. The best I can hope for is that there will be content I can tweak a bit and then use. In fact, I believe WotC is hoping people will do exactly that (they want all books to be usable by everyone in some way).
That's funny, because i'm looking at Monsters of Faerun (3.0 source) and there's a monster I'm going to describe here.....
Humanoid creatures believed to be distant cousins of Dragons. Found in wild tribes or serving human masters, their brute strength and sharp claws makes them a deadly threat. They are 8-9 feet tall humanoids with draconic features. Their scaled hides ranged from dark yellow ocher to reddish brown with darker spots or bands. Their faces are decidedly dragonlike, with a long snout, a mane of thick hair, and small hornes swept back behind their heads. They have green wings that lighten to gold or yellow or sometimes wing that match the color of their bodies. Their long, scaled tails are not useful in combat as a dragon's tail is, but their vicious claws certanily are. They speak Draconic....
The creature in description is a Dragonkin and have been in the Realms since at least the beginning of 3rd. Now, i don't know about you but that description does sound alot like draconians from DL yet where's the outrage? Where's the hate and anger of having a species the resembles creatures from DL? So, based on the fact that there are already draconic-type creatures in Faerun, the Dragonborn really aren't that far of a stretch.
You do have a point, but there is a major difference between a core race and a minor monster encounter. As far as I know, the Dragonkin were very rare encounters, never organized (unless by a dragon), and a very, very small stain on the grand scheme of things. In 4 FR, we're talking about a very large, organized force of dragon people things.
-Hey, look at that...Myrkul lives again. Go figure.
-- Can't let you have all the fun. Sometimes I have to show my ugly head.
I am the only one here happy with 4e changes?
pretty much yeah
You do have a point, but there is a major difference between a core race and a minor monster encounter. As far as I know, the Dragonkin were very rare encounters, never organized (unless by a dragon), and a very, very small stain on the grand scheme of things. In 4 FR, we're talking about a very large, organized force of dragon people things.
True, but I was just illustrating that dragon-like creatures, resembling Draconians, have been in the Realms before the Dragonborn. And lets not forget TSRs willingness to pull creatures from one world to another, like the Kender Emilio Haversack who was let loose in the Realms or Lord Soth who created his own Land in Ravenloft. I never saw too many complaints about them or the ramifications of what a Kender in the Realms would have on say, halfling communities if he sired children. For me, you can't have too many PC races.
I am the only one here happy with 4e changes? Granted, Dragonborn has no place in the Realms, Baldur´s Gate is the area for my Living in Forgotten Realms, and Orcs now have their own kingdom.
Though I can't say for certain that I will totally enjoy the 4e Realms, considering that I haven't seen the FRCG yet, I can say that it's a pretty high possibility. The changes are far more to my liking and give me a feel of a clean slate with different areas to re-discover. I've also got a taste of the new Realms with the novel Swordmage and to me it seems really interesting with changelands, earth-motes, and a new pantheon.
I am the only one here happy with 4e changes? Granted, Dragonborn has no place in the Realms, Baldur´s Gate is the area for my Living in Forgotten Realms, and Orcs now have their own kingdom.
It sounds good to me also. We shall see how it pans out in August.
I must say I hope the new Realms is a big big failure and sells diddly squat
By putting things like the Half-Orc, Swordmage, Genasi, etc into the book theyre ensuring it wont. Even if nobody were to buy it for the setting many would still buy it for those things.
By putting things like the Half-Orc, Swordmage, Genasi, etc into the book theyre ensuring it wont. Even if nobody were to buy it for the setting many would still buy it for those things.
This is true.
For me it's the best exit. At least that way the rights revert to Ed, so he can deliver them to another company that could restore the Realms to what they truly are, not this mess of retcons and lack of cohesion.
I'm sure you can totaly back up your statement with hard facts that Ed Greenwood holds the copyright on FR and not Wotc?
I'm sure you can totaly back up your statement with hard facts that Ed Greenwood holds the copyright on FR and not Wotc?
I'm fairly sure that Ed has said at Candlekeep that the contract does state that if the setting is basically abandoned by WoTC, the rights revert back to him
I never saw too many complaints about them or the ramifications of what a Kender in the Realms would have on say, halfling communities if he sired children.
-Well, of course, this didn't happen, so...
I'm sure you can totaly back up your statement with hard facts that Ed Greenwood holds the copyright on FR and not Wotc?
-He has discussed his contract at Candlekeep, and this is indeed the case. The likelihood of this actually happening is nil however. And, in the odd case that this does actually happen, it certainly wouldn't be good for the Forgotten Realms.
[...] -He has discussed his contract at Candlekeep, and this is indeed the case. The likelihood of this actually happening is nil however.
For as long as the novels and CRPGs are bringing in a balance positive by even 1 cent I also cannot see this happen.
And, in the odd case that this does actually happen, it certainly wouldn't be good for the Forgotten Realms.
Then how comes that everyone and his dog wishes the 4E FR to fail horribly?
For as long as the novels and CRPGs are bringing in a balance positive by even 1 cent I also cannot see this happen.
-Which is why I said the chance of this actually happening is nil.
Then how comes that everyone and his dog wishes the 4E FR to fail horribly?
-Because, they don't like the 4-Gotten Realms.
-But, they fail to see what happens when/if the setting reverts back to Ed Greenwood: Things that have become 'hallmarks', and part of the setting, that are owned by WotC, suddenly cannot be used, when/if he brings the setting to a new publisher. Places (Kara-Tur, etc.) suddenly get erased. The "steady" cosmology suddenly gets messed with (again). Monsters and races that exist in the Realms that are owned by WotC suddenly disappear.
-While he might be able to make the setting more closely mirror what he originally intended, and what not, what he originally intended is not the same exact product as what we have all come to like, necessarily.
For as long as the novels and CRPGs are bringing in a balance positive by even 1 cent I also cannot see this happen.
Then how comes that everyone and his dog wishes the 4E FR to fail horribly?
It is the internet and fanpeople on both sides pro and con can sometimes think in an odd manner. This is an opinion of mine. Not a fact. Just an opinion.
It is the internet and fanpeople on both sides pro and con can be morons. This is an opinion of mine. Not a fact. Just an opinion.
Let's keep it civil, but there are a certain amount of trolls out there. "Down with 4e!" or "Burn the Realms!."
Fortunately enough, most of them left this board a couple pages back.
True, but I was just illustrating that dragon-like creatures, resembling Draconians, have been in the Realms before the Dragonborn. And lets not forget TSRs willingness to pull creatures from one world to another, like the Kender Emilio Haversack who was let loose in the Realms or Lord Soth who created his own Land in Ravenloft. I never saw too many complaints about them or the ramifications of what a Kender in the Realms would have on say, halfling communities if he sired children. For me, you can't have too many PC races.
Whether the first happened or not, one character vs a cataclysmic change that brings an entire kingdom are on two completely different scales. Plus, Hickman and Weis brought Soth back out of Ravenloft for Dragonlance (probably because they lacked any characters with real depth after he left).
About the PC races - To me, half dragons have always been an option for my PCs provided they were high enough level for the template (Same goes for half-celestials/fiends, genasi, drow, and whatever else they wanted to play). The problem of course being, I always left it up to my PCs to convince me that their background was worthy enough to be considered for them to have those templates/races. Now, since Dragonborn are a default race, there will be more and more PCs running around that are, for all purposes, scaly monsters to the common man.
Plus, Hickman and Weis brought Soth back out of Ravenloft for Dragonlance (probably because they lacked any characters with real depth after he left)
And then they summarily killed him off in a moronic way. Sorry, but this has been ticking me off for a while. Soth was perfect in Ravenloft, and they take him out of it just to kill him off in a dumb way? Hell, they could've still told that story without taking Soth out of Ravenloft. Time flows differently there. He could've been there for centuries and been returned to Krynn at the moment he left. The whole thing really sucked. Ravenloft had this amazing triumvirate of evil, Strahd Von Zarovich, Azalin, and Lord Soth, and they went and chopped one of those off. Sithicus hasn't been the same since.
[...] -Because, they don't like the 4-Gotten Realms.
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[...] The "steady" cosmology suddenly gets messed with (again). [...]
Maybe. However, I somehow doubt the cosmology can enter a state of higher fubarness than Realmspace.
OMG!. My head hurts now. I actually was able to read that which is sad. Oy.
Anyway 4-Realms isn't as bad as $E. Like two people do it but they really hope others will catch on to it but even most of the anti-4E people think the $E symbol is pretty lame and childish. Thank the gods :D .
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-WizOs hate that, probably because they aren't "cool" and "hip".
-That said, the 4-Gotten Realms are what I am calling the "new" Realms, as 4-Gotten Realms is much easier to type than 'the "new" Forgotten Realms', and 'the 4e Forgotten Realms'. Oh well.
Maybe. However, I somehow doubt the cosmology can enter a state of higher fubarness than Realmspace.
-With the random retcon to the Great Tree, and now the craziness with the 4e cosmology, no doubt. That said, specific locales and planes in the cosmology that are constant, that are owned by WotC, will no longer be able to be utilized. Same thing with deities.
And then they summarily killed him off in a moronic way. Sorry, but this has been ticking me off for a while. Soth was perfect in Ravenloft, and they take him out of it just to kill him off in a dumb way? Hell, they could've still told that story without taking Soth out of Ravenloft. Time flows differently there. He could've been there for centuries and been returned to Krynn at the moment he left. The whole thing really sucked. Ravenloft had this amazing triumvirate of evil, Strahd Von Zarovich, Azalin, and Lord Soth, and they went and chopped one of those off. Sithicus hasn't been the same since.
Agreed. Knight of the Black Rose and the War with Azalin are two of best TSR/WotC novels I ever read. Its a shame, really. Soth had such depth and potential. The three way stalemate between them was always amusing.
-With the random retcon to the Great Tree, and now the craziness with the 4e cosmology, no doubt. That said, specific locales and planes in the cosmology that are constant, that are owned by WotC, will no longer be able to be utilized. Same thing with deities.
So what? Remember the 2nd edition Shadowrun core book introduction story? "The more changes, the more stays the same".
Also, I was referring to this mess. That's about as retarded as one can get when it comes to describing stellar bodies.
Show
Anadia
Planet closest to the sun and mostly populated by Halflings and Umber hulks. It is covered in canyons that dwarf the Great Rift and the equatorial regions are unlivable due to the suns proximity.
Coliar
Coliar is a gas giant mostly populated with avian life-forms and other flying creatures. A few 'islands' of water and earth revolve around the planet's core. Elminster is said to own a resort on one of these islands.
Karpri
The fourth planet in the system is an oceanic world. It is an absolutely beautiful place to behold from wildspace. The poles are covered in pack ice hundreds of miles thick and stalked by deadly cold-loving predators while floating on the equators waters can be found seaweed which at some points can support up to five tons of weight but are also home to massive, dangerous insects. The waters of the world are inhabited by aquatic elves and predacious sea life, making this planet as dangerous as it is beautiful.
Chandos
Another oceanic world, Chandos' seas contain lumps of rock that, when piled high enough create highly unstable islands. Those living on these islands are the human, dwarven and orcish descendants from a pair of Spelljammers that crash-landed here long ago. Over time, they lost their technologies and developed an emnity for each other, forgetting their pasts and becoming primitive.
Glyth
Glyth is a harsh, ringed planet that has been occupied by the dreaded Illithid for about a century. Plant life is continually burned by the harsh atmosphere or by the mind flayers to prevent their humanoid cattle hiding from them. A remarkably pure edible gelatin 'water' can be found in the place of seas, though the planet still has ice caps as normal, nothing lives there. Most activity occurs underground. As well as the planet's rings, Glyth is orbitted by three satellites. One, known as Haven is a hollowed out asteroid and treated as neutral ground for the different mind flayer factions. Another, Mingabwe is a trading port for non-illithids. While orbitting Mingabwe is Polluter, an unmapped asteroid.
Garden
Garden is not actually a planet. It is a series of earth-masses connected together by a massive plant. Non-sentient life-forms create a balanced ecosystem with the many varieties of plant life growing here, but otherwise it is populated by pirates. Garden is also orbitted by twelve satellites.
H'Catha
Consisting of a flat disc of 300-mile thick water with a single mountain in the center, this world looks like a giant wagon wheel, with the Spindle (the mountain) always pointing directly at the sun. Near the base of the mountain, six ports, each owned by a different type of Beholder accept Spelljamming traffic from other beholders (not ones who live on H'Catha as that would provoke a war) and a mysterious humanoid race. Other species are only allowed to land if they have goods to trade and leave as soon as they are done. The world is orbitted by two satellites, Turnbetl & Lumbe.
-That said, the 4-Gotten Realms are what I am calling the "new" Realms, as 4-Gotten Realms is much easier to type than 'the "new" Forgotten Realms', and 'the 4e Forgotten Realms'.
This is a derrogatory term that qualifies as baiting.
For the sake of these forums, and out of respect for the other community members and especially in your position as VCL, I strongly encourage you to quit the term immediately.
The 4E Realms are The Forgotten Realms.
-That said, the 4-Gotten Realms are what I am calling the "new" Realms, as 4-Gotten Realms is much easier to type than 'the "new" Forgotten Realms', and 'the 4e Forgotten Realms'. Oh well.
And that's not as easy to type as, say, the '4E Realms', or 'FR4E'. If you were really going for the expedient choice, then there're alternatives aside from the very annoying to read '4-Gotten Realms'.
OMG!. My head hurts now. I actually was able to read that which is sad. Oy. [...]
:D
So what? Remember the 2nd edition Shadowrun core book introduction story? "The more changes, the more stays the same".
-Never played that game.
Also, I was referring to this mess. That's about as retarded as one can get when it comes to describing stellar bodies.
This is a derrogatory term that qualifies as baiting.
-Only if you make such a connotation. I certainly didn't.
For the sake of these forums, and out of respect for the other community members and especially in your position as VCL, I strongly encourage you to quit the term immediately.
-And you just mentioned baiting?
-Suffice to say, I am quite understanding in my duties. I was selected specifically by the community to perform them. My duties do not include being a 'tool'. When/If the VCL finds fault in my actions as FL, the VCL will being it up. That said, the VCL does not find any fault in my actions as FL.
The 4E Realms are The Forgotten Realms.
-You are the only one, in this discussion, who even brought the notion up. There is a difference between the setting of the current Forgotten Realms and the setting of the Forgotten Realms once 4th Edition debuts. Thus, there must be a distinction, which is where 4-Gotten Realms comes to into play, to denote the Forgotten Realms after the Spellplague, after the 100+/- year jump.
And that's not as easy to type as, say, the '4E Realms', or 'FR4E'. If you were really going for the expedient choice, then there're alternatives aside from the very annoying to read '4-Gotten Realms'.
-I have problems typing '4' and 'e' consecutively, because of the way I type. Thus, I am not going to use that one. Nor do I refer to the setting as 'FR' (I always type out 'Forgotten Realms'), thus, I am not going to use that one. 4-Gotten Realms is just punny.
-Only if you make such a connotation. I certainly didn't. [...]
Of course you've been completely neutral on this issue so that there was never even the slightest chance of guessing such a connotation.
-You are the only one, in this discussion, who even brought the notion up. There is a difference between the setting of the current Forgotten Realms and the setting of the Forgotten Realms once 4th Edition debuts. Thus, there must be a distinction, which is where 4-Gotten Realms comes to into play, to denote the Forgotten Realms after the Spellplague, after the 100+/- year jump.
Which is completely irrelevant. Or do you distinguish between the US before WW2 and after? Before ****'s presidency and after? Before the invasion of **** and after? Or do you consider it still the same?
Of course you've been completely neutral on this issue so that there was never even the slightest chance of guessing such a connotation.
-In the ways I've used the term, it is wholly neutral. The term 'mulatto', for example, is a wholly neutral term to describe certain individuals. It was used in official government census' around the world. It's the way the term is used that makes it derogatory or not.
Which is completely irrelevant. Or do you distinguish between the US before WW2 and after? Before ****'s presidency and after? Before the invasion of **** and after? Or do you consider it still the same?
-That's just silly. Of course the United States before World War II is different from the U.S. after World War II. Just like Germany during World War II is different from the Germany of today. Just like science is seen as more 'advanced' now than it was 100 years ago. And so on and so forth.
-Just like the Forgotten Realms during the 3e era are different from the Forgotten Realms in the 4e era, in that a bunch of calamity, and about 100 years pass.
I was selected specifically by the community to perform them.
I don't recall nominating you.
In fact, I don't recall anyone asking us Realms Forum folks about nominations.
What I do recall was Rinon encouraging you to take the position, so you asked someone at WotC for the position and they simply gave it to you without a second thought.
I'm sorry Karsus, but you simply don't have a mandate you think you do.
-You are the only one, in this discussion, who even brought the notion up.
You made the distincion when you started using that derogatory term.
Thus, there must be a distinction, which is where 4-Gotten Realms comes to into play, to denote the Forgotten Realms after the Spellplague, after the 100+/- year jump.
That is called the 4E Realms.
Your term is derogatory because it is a play on words that puts the 4E Realms in a negative light.
Two regular forum members have already asked you to stop.
Please do not create additional problems on the forums you are meant to lead by continuing to use the term.
I don't recall nominating you.
-You didn't. ;)
In fact, I don't recall anyone asking us Realms Forum folks about nominations.
-They did. You weren't the most active user, in the past.
What I do recall was Rinon encouraging you to take the position, so you asked someone at WotC for the position and they simply gave it to you without as second thought.
-Then, you only know that much of the "story". ;)
You made the distincion when you started using that derogatory term.
-As I said, you deemed it derogatory. I use it in a wholly negative manner, to denote the Forgotten Realms in 1470 DR.
Your term is derogatory because it is a play on words that puts the 4E Realms in a negative light.
-Share with me just how it does that.
-That's just silly. Of course the United States before World War II is different from the U.S. after World War II. Just like Germany during World War II is different from the Germany of today. Just like science is seen as more 'advanced' now than it was 100 years ago. And so on and so forth.
-Just like the Forgotten Realms during the 3e era are different from the Forgotten Realms in the 4e era, in that a bunch of calamity, and about 100 years pass.
So, you refer to the US in WW2 as the "U2A"? Or to Germany during WW2 as "G3rmany"?
-You -They did. You weren't the most active user, in the past.
So your assuming that if I'm not posting that I'm also not online?
Such as during the time(s) when the idea of Forum Leads and whatnot came about?
They've pitched that idea more than once in the past couple of years, you know.
-Then, you only know that much of the "story".
It might as well be just a story, because there's no truth to the idea that this community participated in any kind of 'election' within the past month or so.
-Share with me just how it does that.
Read your own post:
-As I said, you deemed it derogatory. I use it in a wholly negative manner, to denote the Forgotten Realms in 1470 DR.
I count at least three well know forum regulars that are taking issue with your use of that term.
Again, please stop using it.
(...) Read your own post: I count at least three well know forum regulars that are taking issue with your use of that term.
Again, please stop using it.
Drama over an abbreviation? 4gotten Realms isn't derogatory imo, it's sort of cutesy with the "4" in there because it instantly reminds of 4E (which isn't out yet). It's certainly not like "4gettable Realms", which -would- be derogatory.
4E Realms, 4E FR, 4gotten Realms, they're all equivalent in my book. Just another opinion.
If any negativity is associated with 4gotten Realms, the designers themselves are responsible for that.
If any negativity is associated with 4gotten Realms, the designers themselves are responsible for that.
Are you suggesting it's the game designer's fault that people choose to behave the way they do?
Please stop using the term.
So, you refer to the US in WW2 as the "U2A"? Or to Germany during WW2 as "G3rmany"?
-Not in those terms, but there's Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and so on and so forth, that denote those particular states during that particular time, World War II.
Read your own post: I count at least three well know forum regulars that are taking issue with your use of that term.
Again, please stop using it.
-Best typo ever! See what all this negativity does...
-I meant to type, "As I said, you deemed it derogatory. I use it in a wholly neutral manner, to denote the Forgotten Realms in 1479 DR." Obviously, I wouldn't be saying that I don't see it as an offensive term if I meant it maliciously. 1 and 1 isn't 3.
-That said, you deemed 4-Gotten Realms derogatory before I posted that typo, so please elaborate why you feel this way.
in when people have questions, need help, or are confused. I've never really known him (as well as anyone could know anyone else from message boards) to be deliberately derogatory over anything. Though I do have to wonder Lord Karsus, are you going to keep up with the newer lore or stick with the old?
As most know, i'm staunchly for 4e and FR4E but I really don't see anything wrong with 4gotten-Realms. Maybe it's just me, who knows?
I'm pretty sure it is
I'm pretty sure it is
Then I truly am special......not in a special-ed. way though.....
Then I truly am special......not in a special-ed. way though.....
I understand you are the one-in-a-million Realms fan who is looking forward to the August book. I imagine you must understand our trepidation though
Though I do have to wonder Lord Karsus, are you going to keep up with the newer lore or stick with the old?
-In what context?
-I don't DM, so I don't have to worry about that. I purposely created Elves of Faerûn having been written in Utkar of 1374 DR, so I could avoid the nonsense happening in the Lady Penitent books (and it only got worse from there, lore wise), so that I don't have to worry about. I'm going to read over what happens in the 4e setting, to be knowledgeable about things, but I am certainly not going to like it (being that there is already so much that I dislike).
-Regarding the 4e rules, there are many aspects that I don't particularly like, but there are a few things I do like, so I'm mostly neutral concerning them, with a lean towards dislike than like. The only way, being as that I, personally, am not transitioning, play using the 4e rules is if Rino runs a campaign, as I told her.
-I don't DM,
yes but you do a wicked Calishite impression
I purposely created Elves of Faerûn having been written in Utkar of 1374 DR, so I could avoid the nonsense happening in the Lady Penitent books (and it only got worse from there, lore wise),
Excellent advanced planning. A mess is an understatement
-Regarding the 4e rules, there are many aspects that I don't particularly like, but there are a few things I do like, so I'm mostly neutral concerning them, with a lean towards dislike than like. The only way, being as that I, personally, am not transitioning, play using the 4e rules is if Rino runs a campaign, as I told her.
From what I have seen, I am more in line with Rino on the 4e. I haven't gotten it yet (frickin' amazon) but I do like the basic groundwork.
:D
Are you suggesting it's the game designer's fault that people choose to behave the way they do?
Please stop using the term.
Nope, I'm suggesting that the designers have given us what they have, and people are reacting naturally to it. Therefore, the designers are to blame for what they've created. Most do not like the radical changes, particularly those who have been with the setting the longest. For a while I was willing to give the 4E Realms a chance, and even tried to argue the few merits that I saw in it. But no longer, as it's exceeded its ratio of bad to good.
It was, of course, a gamble. If large numbers of people loved and embraced it, the designers would be well-appreciated for what they've done. That just doesn't seem to be the case.
Regardless, the issue at hand is whether or not 4gotten Realms is a derogatory term. I do not see it as such; it's merely another abbreviation.
I understand you are the one-in-a-million Realms fan who is looking forward to the August book. I imagine you must understand our trepidation though
Whole-heartedly! I easily see why people are upset and at first I was too. I've got 3 campaigns set in the Realms right now and there's really no way to make the jump without killing them all. Hence why i'm still going to play 3.5 with those characters. But on the flip side, the time jump, the pantheon change, the abier collision, and chaning of magic are things that keep the realms living. For me, they suck but life isn't fair. Things in life will never be fair and that being portrayed with the Realms makes it more real than I think it has been in a while. I also see alot of potential with 4gotten-Realms as a whole and with the way the new system works, I think its going to be alot of fun. In the end, I still don't see why people can't play both? I mean, if it was a money thing then maybe it's not the best hobby for those people.
-I'm going to read over what happens in the 4e setting, to be knowledgeable about things, but I am certainly not going to like it (being that there is already so much that I dislike).
Yea, that's what I meant. Being knowledgeable about the newer stuff.
-The only way, being as that I, personally, am not transitioning, play using the 4e rules is if Rino runs a campaign, as I told her.
I hope your gaming experience is a good one.
That's a cute picture of Heath in the back.
I must admit. I wasn't looking at Heath
yes but you do a wicked Calishite impression
-I wasn't even doing the real good one. I am very self-conscious, and I don't like to do 'voices' in public, like that.
-That said, you deemed 4-Gotten Realms derogatory before I posted that typo, so please elaborate why you feel this way.
Strictly speaking, when it's read in anything you write, it comes off as a negative.
I know I'm not the only one who stands unconvinced you're coming from a "neutral place" (so to speak) when you use the term, either.
I don't see how the 4E Realms are served positively by the usage and spread of that term.
It reads negatively and it's not that hard to figure out why. It's like reading a variant ot T$R or similar.
It also encourages people to make a harsher distinction between the 4E Realms and the pre-Spellplague Realms.
For better or worse, the post-Spellplague Forgotten Realms that will be covered during the time of the 4E Rules Set are the Forgotten Realms.
We should be using simple number/letter terminology (4E, 3E, 4E Realms, 3E Realms, etc...) going forward so that people can easily determine what/when we're talking about with regard to rules and eras of the Realms.
I hope that people who play 3E (like me) can still fill included and be encouraged to participate here. I think a simpler terminology that doesn't include the potential to irritate others is a good thing.
It reads negatively and it's not that hard to figure out why. It's like reading a variant ot T$R or similar.
Last I checked, it was called "Forgotten Realms." I, honestly, do not see any fault in calling it 4gotten, kind of a cutesy abbreviation really. Now if you want to start saying "Implied" and "politicized," you may as well butcher the English language and take away everything involved in. Emphasis and connotation can be applied to every scenario. You can take the same sentence (Especially written) and come up with ten different perspectives on what it implied. Honestly, I do not see how this discussion is at all relevant or why it is even being posted on a board.
-I wasn't even doing the real good one. I am very self-conscious, and I don't like to do 'voices' in public, like that.
Well perhaps gaming in the middle of a starbucks is not for you.
This has caused a dilemma for me, actually, as I've heard good things about the 4E rules set and would like to check it out, but don't want to in support a company by purchasing their product when they're willing to take the axe to their premier setting in this fashion .
Strictly speaking, when it's read in anything you write, it comes off as a negative.
-Likewise.
I don't see how the 4E Realms are served positively by the usage and spread of that term.
-That they are served "positively" is a distinction that is based entirely on only your personal, subjective preference. Nobody's tone/grammar/spelling/slangs/terms/terminology/et al. needs to meet some kind of benchmark, be it something positive, negative, or neutral. All we(I) stress is that input into discussions is fairly meaningful.
It reads negatively and it's not that hard to figure out why. It's like reading a variant ot T$R or similar.
It also encourages people to make a harsher distinction between the 4E Realms and the pre-Spellplague Realms.
-All of that is reaching for a straw.
For better or worse, the post-Spellplague Forgotten Realms that will be covered during the time of the 4E Rules Set are the Forgotten Realms.
-This is true. And, I never said, in this conversation or any other, that they wouldn't be. The Forgotten Realms of First Edition, Second Edition and Third Edition do take place in a different "era" than the Forgotten Realms of Fourth Edition, and as such, a distinction must be made when talking about the Forgotten Realms in 1479 DR and, say, 1372 DR.
We should be using simple number/letter terminology (4E, 3E, 4E Realms, 3E Realms, etc...) going forward so that people can easily determine what/when we're talking about with regard to rules and eras of the Realms.
I hope that people who play 3E (like me) can still fill included and be encouraged to participate here. I think a simpler terminology that doesn't include the potential to irritate others is a good thing.
-One is allowed free will over what kind of tone/grammar/spellingterms/terminology/slangs/et al. that they use. That is why there are so many unique and differing personalities on the boards. As long as they do not breach the CoC, there is nothing to stop them from expressing themselves as they see fit.
Well perhaps gaming in the middle of a starbucks is not for you.
-I've already mentioned how it really isn't. But, I trudge through for the good company.
Personally, I'm all for change when it's necessary and for the better. IMO, the 4E changes to the Realms are NOT for the better. They completely unravel the rich tapestry the was the Forgotten Realms and use the leavings to feed the cook fire.
This has caused a dilemma for me, actually, as I've heard good things about the 4E rules set and would like to check it out, but don't want to in support a company by purchasing their product when they're willing to take the axe to their premier setting in this fashion .
-Check out the rules, then. Go to the book store, sit down, and flip through them. If you like them, buy them. If you don't, don't. No biggie.
-Personally, that kind of attitude is like saying you are not going to buy Magic cards anymore, because they did something to D&D. ;)
MT (where'd your post go?): I don't use an Indian accent. When I use the voice for my character, I try to emulate The Merchant, from the beginning of Disney's Aladdin.
excellent movie
I... don't... play... Magic...
-Me neither. ;)
excellent movie
-I agree. One of my top three favorite Disney movies.
I... don't... play... Magic...
ditto.
And I'm a big Lady & The Tramp guy myself. But Alladin is great
You made the distincion when you started using that derogatory term.
That is called the 4E Realms.
Your term is derogatory because it is a play on words that puts the 4E Realms in a negative light.
Two regular forum members have already asked you to stop.
Please do not create additional problems on the forums you are meant to lead by continuing to use the term.
Please stop saying X-mas. It's Christmas. Typing X-mas is derogatory and puts Christmas in a negative light.
Seriously, disagree all you like, but over an abbreviation that says exactly the same as 4e FR? I mean, that's an abbreviation, too, isn't it? I hope I offended no one by using it.
DB
Please stop saying X-mas. It's Christmas. Typing X-mas is derogatory and puts Christmas in a negative light.
And... and it's not Prof X, or Professor X, it's Professor Xavier! :D
And... and it's not Prof X, or Professor X, it's Professor Xavier! :D
and the next time you send me a birthday card put "hugs & kisses" not "Xs and Os"
Merry X-mas, Prof X!
Enjoy this new 4gottenRealms guide!
XOXOXO
PS: don't 4get Merrik's B-Day party next wk!
-Therise
Non-Derogatory:
Merry Christmas, Professor Xavier!
Enjoy this new Forgotten Realms Guide!
Hugs and Kisses,
Reminder: Don't forget Merrik's birthday party next week!
-Therise
:D :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-mas
-The more you know...
-Likewise.
So what's your point, exactly?
Is it that you don't care how people perceive your online attitude towards the new setting? Or that others might percieve your supposedly 'neutral' tone as negative and spread it around?
What kind of Realms fan does that?
-One is allowed free will over what kind of tone/grammar/spellingterms/terminology/slangs/et al. that they use.
Since when?
Good spelling and proper use of grammar are givens. These are such basic concepts that to have to remind people to use them is a mark against the person not doing their part to master the basics of human interaction.
Appealing to free will does nothing to support your position.
That is why there are so many unique and differing personalities on the boards. As long as they do not breach the CoC, there is nothing to stop them from expressing themselves as they see fit.
Just as "not breach(ing)" the CoC is no excuse for a lack of manners or organization.
So what? Remember the 2nd edition Shadowrun core book introduction story? "The more changes, the more stays the same".
Also, I was referring to this mess. That's about as retarded as one can get when it comes to describing stellar bodies.
Thanks for the link, I loved it.
I didn't find it "retarded" at all. It's fantasy.-Regarding the 4e rules, there are many aspects that I don't particularly like, but there are a few things I do like, so I'm mostly neutral concerning them, with a lean towards dislike than like. The only way, being as that I, personally, am not transitioning, play using the 4e rules is if Rino runs a campaign, as I told her.
And I would gladly run a campaign once I feel confident enough in knowing the rules. That might take a while.;)
-Check out the rules, then. Go to the book store, sit down, and flip through them. If you like them, buy them. If you don't, don't. No biggie.
-Personally, that kind of attitude is like saying you are not going to buy Magic cards anymore, because they did something to D&D. ;)
It's not just like that, it's the exact same. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong it it - in fact, it's healthy. Too many Americans (and people all over the world, I'm guessing) have lost sight of a simple fact: as consumers, we can only influence business by voting with our wallets. When people cease to do so, it allows business to run roughshod over such outmoded concepts as fair business practices, reasonable prices, and honesty.
This is why I won't likely end up buying 4E unless something changes with the 4E Realms.
And I would gladly run a campaign once I feel confident enough in knowing the rules. That might take a while.;)
well get cracking
So what's your point, exactly?
-That I see negativity in most, if not all, of your posts. Case in point.
What kind of Realms fan does that?
-What kind of Realms fan does that? The ones that don't like the direction the setting is going in, maybe? How does that political slogan go? Dissent is patriotism, or something to that effect. Nobody is under the mandate to like that is happening to the setting, nor do they have to dislike what is happening to the setting, either.
Good spelling and proper use of grammar are givens. These are such basic concepts that to have to remind people to use them is a mark against the person not doing their part to master the basics of human interaction.
Just as "not breach(ing)" the CoC is no excuse for a lack of manners or organization.
-Correct. But, not everybody uses the English language correctly, for various reasons. Nor is everyone polite. Sometimes this kind of behavior can border trolling/baiting (depending on exactly what is said), and other times, people aren't necessarily trying to be rude, offensive, or brash, but, for whatever reason, they come off that way.
-Now, where are you going with this? That such a term is offensive, and/or otherwise not proper? What is that term that a lot of the very pro-4e people use? 4venger? Something to that effect. Now what?
-That said, I have been using a term to denote the Fourth Edition incarnation of the Forgotten Realms (4-Gotten Realms) as opposed to the Third Edition and previous incarnations of the Forgotten Realms.
And I would gladly run a campaign once I feel confident enough in knowing the rules. That might take a while.;)
-Like I said, I'm ready whenever you are.
It's not just like that, it's the exact same. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong it it - in fact, it's healthy. Too many Americans (and people all over the world, I'm guessing) have lost sight of a simple fact: as consumers, we can only influence business by voting with our wallets. When people cease to do so, it allows business to run roughshod over such outmoded concepts as fair business practices, reasonable prices, and honesty.
This is why I won't likely end up buying 4E unless something changes with the 4E Realms.
-Oh, I understand. I, personally, am not going to be initially buying the new FRCG, because I don't like the direction the setting is going in, and don't want my purchase that is made out of curiosity to be misinterpreted as a purchase that is made out of approval for what is going on. But, as I and others have said time and time again, the 4th Edition rules are a separate entity from the 4-Gotten Realms. One is rules, the other is the setting. You can like one, and not the other. It's allowed. ;)
Thanks for the link, I loved it.
The problem is, that it breaks EVERY rule about astrophysics and handwaves the thing with "a wizard did it". There's not enough handwavium in the milky way to justify something like that.
While I can accept a certain amount of fiction when describing something like a solar system, what happened with Realmspace seriously breaks my suspension of disbelieve.
Realmspace judgement day
Anadia should be a blasted, burnt, and half-molten piece of rock due to its proximity to sun. The planet's atmosphere would be swept away by the solar wind, or burnt down by the insane radiation emitted from the star.
-- "A wizard did it."
Coliar would be devoid of any life as we know it. The pressure in a gas giant's atmosphere is high enough to crush every material currently known to mankind. So there certainly won't be any [natural] avian life-forms, and much less "islands of water and earth around its core".
-- "A wizard did it."
The description of Selûne makes no sense at all. I see, one side of the moon always faces the planet around with it rotates. That's fine. But why is the other side "always shrouded in darkness"?
-- "A wizard did it."
Karpri's poles "covered in pack ice hundreds of miles thick". Huh? And where do the sea elves live? The distance from a planet's core to the poles is generally less than the distance from the core to the aequator, due to centrifugal forces "flattening" the planet. If there is enough water to be frozen to ice "hundreds of miles thick", where the hell is the planet's crust? It must be so far below the surface that the pressure would basically kill anything that dives down there.
-- "A wizard did it."
Glyth, a planet full of mind flayers? Ok, why haven't they already invaded Toril? I guess 4000 mind flayers teleporting directly into Waterdeep (or any other larger city), enslaving a large part of the populace before the forces of the city could react, would be a nice surprise. What's preventing them from raiding and conquering the other worlds?
-- "A wizard did it."
Garden. WTF? How does this thing work? Where does this "plant" get its nourishment from? How does it keep its atmosphere? How does it protect itself from the star's radiation, or rather - considering the distance from the star - against the cold of space?
-- "A wizard did it."
H'Catha. No. Fricking. Way. What keeps the water in place and prevents if from drifting off into space due to centrifugal forces? What keeps the mountain pointing exactly at the star and prevents if from wobbling around?
-- "A wizard did it. Often. And very hard."
Anadia should be a blasted, burnt, and half-molten piece of rock due to its proximity to sun. The planet's atmosphere would be swept away by the solar wind, or burnt down by the insane radiation emitted from the star.
-- "A wizard did it."
Coliar would be devoid of any life as we know it. The pressure in a gas giant's atmosphere is high enough to crush every material currently known to mankind. So there certainly won't be any [natural] avian life-forms, and much less "islands of water and earth around its core".
-- "A wizard did it."
The description of Selûne makes no sense at all. I see, one side of the moon always faces the planet around with it rotates. That's fine. But why is the other side "always shrouded in darkness"?
-- "A wizard did it."
Karpri's poles "covered in pack ice hundreds of miles thick". Huh? And where do the sea elves live? The distance from a planet's core to the poles is generally less than the distance from the core to the aequator, due to centrifugal forces "flattening" the planet. If there is enough water to be frozen to ice "hundreds of miles thick", where the hell is the planet's crust? It must be so far below the surface that the pressure would basically kill anything that dives down there.
-- "A wizard did it."
Glyth, a planet full of mind flayers? Ok, why haven't they already invaded Toril? I guess 4000 mind flayers teleporting directly into Waterdeep (or any other larger city), enslaving a large part of the populace before the forces of the city could react, would be a nice surprise. What's preventing them from raiding and conquering the other worlds?
-- "A wizard did it."
Garden. WTF? How does this thing work? Where does this "plant" get its nourishment from? How does it keep its atmosphere? How does it protect itself from the star's radiation, or rather - considering the distance from the star - against the cold of space?
-- "A wizard did it."
H'Catha. No. Fricking. Way. What keeps the water in place and prevents if from drifting off into space due to centrifugal forces? What keeps the mountain pointing exactly at the star and prevents if from wobbling around?
-- "A wizard did it. Often. And very hard."
As said, I can accept a certain degree of creativity, but that's just over the top. I think it comes down to personal preference, but having at least a believable explanation doesn't hurt.
It is a matter of personal preference. What's "out of hand" or "over the top" to one person doesn't bother another person. I'm not saying you have to like the Realmspace stuff, and I don't think you even have to justify why you dislike it to me (or anyone). I'm just saying *I* like it.
Although, didn't you specifically say in the past that complaining about stuff in D&D not being "realistic" is silly, because the fantasy genre by it's nature is full of absurdities? I recall that from your conversations with Alediran.Again, you don't have to justify to me why do don't like this stuff. I just wonder about how you are now trying to apply real world science to fantasy cosmos. You have a legitimate complaint, I'm just saying I see some inconsistancy here.
The problem is, that it breaks EVERY rule about astrophysics and handwaves the thing with "a wizard did it". There's not enough handwavium in the milky way to justify something like that.
Just as a humorous aside, Lucy Lawless of Xena: Warrior Princess would often be asked about various plot inconsistencies in Xena by interviewers, and her nearly uniform response to all such questions would be "Uhhm... a wizard did it!" It got to be something of an expected joke at conventions. :D
WizO_Unicorn
-Like I said, I'm ready whenever you are.
Great! I already have a bunch of ideas, such a mission to save Pepperland, a prophecy from Squadila Man, a meeting with King Harkanian, and a store run by THE SHOPKEEP.:D ;)
Great! I already have a bunch of ideas, such a mission to save Pepperland, a prophecy from Squadila Man, a meeting with King Harkanian, and a store run by THE SHOPKEEP.:D ;)
-I'm all for saving Pepperland!
-I'm all for saving Pepperland!
That would be a great adventure, wouldn't it?
That would be a great adventure, wouldn't it?
-As I said, only if you ran it.
-As I said, only if you ran it.
Where's Darth Salt
[...] Although, didn't you specifically say in the past that complaining about stuff in D&D not being "realistic" is silly, because the fantasy genre by it's nature is full of absurdities? I recall that from your conversations with Alediran.
Don't confuse my complaint against simulationist DnD with a complaint against believable DnD.
Let's take fire as an example. Is it common that fire warms less and spends less light the further you get from the fireplace? Spells like Wall of Fire even incorporate this fact into their mechanics.
And yet, the star around which the Torilian planets circle ignores this simple fact completely by providing a habitable zone spanning from the first to the last orbit. Instead of the nearest planet being burnt to ashes, and the farthest planet being a frozen wasteland, all planets are equally warm. Also, why does the oceanic planet closer to the sun have more and thicker polar ice than the oceanic planet further away from the star?
Why? How?
Why does a normal campfire loose radiance and heat, while a giant fireball in the sky does not? Shouldn't the same phenomenon operate according to the same principals whenever it is encountered?
Again, you don't have to justify to me why do don't like this stuff. I just wonder about how you are now trying to apply real world science to fantasy cosmos. You have a legitimate complaint, I'm just saying I see some inconsistancy here.
See above. I can live and accept (and sometimes do stuff like that myself :P ) for as long as it stays believable. But common sense and simple examples (camp fire, a river in winter, etc) demonstrate that Realmspace doesn't even adhere to the most basic principles. It can only work because "a wizard did it". All of it.
Don't confuse my complaint against simulationist DnD with a complaint against believable DnD.
Let's take fire as an example. Is it common that fire warms less and spends less light the further you get from the fireplace? Spells like Wall of Fire even incorporate this fact into their mechanics.
And yet, the star around which the Torilian planets circle ignores this simple fact completely by providing a habitable zone spanning from the first to the last orbit. Instead of the nearest planet being burnt to ashes, and the farthest planet being a frozen wasteland, all planets are equally warm. Also, why does the oceanic planet closer to the sun have more and thicker polar ice than the oceanic planet further away from the star?
Why? How?
Why does a normal campfire loose radiance and heat, while a giant fireball in the sky does not? Shouldn't the same phenomenon operate according to the same principals whenever it is encountered?
-One of the original 1e Forgotten Realms books (the same one that mentions how gunpowder doesn't work in the Forgotten Realms) states that physics in Realmspace don't work the same way as they do in our world. So, there's one part of the "puzzle".
Don't confuse my complaint against simulationist DnD with a complaint against believable DnD.
...
See above. I can live and accept (and sometimes do stuff like that myself :P ) for as long as it stays believable. But common sense and simple examples (camp fire, a river in winter, etc) demonstrate that Realmspace doesn't even adhere to the most basic principles. It can only work because "a wizard did it". All of it.
Thanks for explaining your reasoning a bit more. In any case I think you're right, what we're talking about only works because of magic (as far as I can tell--I'm no expert on Realmspace), but for my part I wouldn't hold that against it.
I do agree with Ra-Tiel most of the lifeforms or communities over there are not interely justified there as "physically" speaking most ecosystems on those planets should be fragile at best. So "extreme" fantastic creatures should be more at home than communities of tinker gnomes (although they would probably rely on their gadgets to survive just about anywhere).
Meh, it is what it is, use it if you like, ignore it if you don't, simple and easy answer to every problem with the Realms, and D&D in general really.
LOL, indeed.
Meh, it is what it is, use it if you like, ignore it if you don't, simple and easy answer to every problem with the Realms, and D&D in general really.
If that was the be all end all solution for D&D, then we woudn't have canon as it is imprinted in our minds. It can really be tough continuing to follow a campaign setting if it dosen't go your way, as many people will continue to feel left behind if they don't follow it and feel dissatisfied if they do. I guess this was what destroyed Greyhawk.
ditto.
And I'm a big Lady & The Tramp guy myself. But Alladin is great
My GF was telling me that she can't help but cry in that movie, when I told her I've never seen it, she yell at me "What?!?!? What kind of american are you?" and of course I had to answer " a Prican one....?"
If that was the be all end all solution for D&D, then we woudn't have canon as it is imprinted in our minds. It can really be tough continuing to follow a campaign setting if it dosen't go your way, as many people will continue to feel left behind if they don't follow it and feel dissatisfied if they do. I guess this was what destroyed Greyhawk.
-Correct.