ive been playing D&D since the Expert days in the late 70's. this is by FAR the worst incarnation of the gaming system ever conceived and published.
wizards has managed to kill D&D for me any for many of my old-school gamers.
oh, and please spare me the 'then just dont play 4e and play the older versions that youre happy with' argument
Rest in Piece D&D, right along side Gary himself. Im sure he is rolling in his grave.
As far as learning whether or not 4E spellcasters are or are not as powerful as one would wish them to be, that determination can be made by perusing the epic tier daily powers of wizards, warlocks, clerics, etc in the 4E Player's Handbook.
Moreover, as far as Elminster is concerned he is still a very powerful mage, and much of the speculation and hearsay that has circulated about him on these and other message boards prior to the release of the book seems to vary profoundly from what is actually written in his NPC blurb. While he is diminished by the death of Mystra and thus lost the abilities directly gained by being her Chosen, he still retains his immortality, as well as his intellect, experience, knowledge, and his considerable arcane power.
Thus, in the event that anyone else who comes across this discussion has only formed their opinions based on second, third, or forth hand speculative accounts of what is in the book from perhaps not very FR-knowledgeable crowds (I daresay EN World?), then I would encourage them to actually take a look at the book for themselves.
He'd probably be a Level 29 or Level 30 Wizard/Archmage in 4E. Hmm, I got half a mind to write him up as a PC.
-Is the power level of a 29th character in 3e reflective or that of a 29th character in 4e? As I understand it, it isn't. I mean, 30 is the new 20, so shouldn't "40" be the new 30?
EDIT: D'OH! I'm still thinking in terms of PC writeups. An NPC writeup can be a few levels higher. Though I doubt he's more then two or three levels higher, as Greater Gods are apparently Level 38 or so. By way of example, Szass Tam is Level 30.
Would you say Elminster is weaker or more powerful than Orcus?
-Orcus as a monster Orcus, or Orcus as a Demon/Deity Orcus? Because, while Orcus may be a Level 30 "monster", Szass Tam is also a Level 30 "monster", and Elminster (3e) eclipses Szass Tam.
-Orcus as a monster Orcus, or Orcus as a Demon/Deity Orcus? Because, while Orcus may be a Level 30 "monster", Szass Tam is also a Level 30 "monster", and Elminster (3e) eclipses Szass Tam.
Orcus is Level 33, so he's also more powerful than Szass Tam, who's Level 30 (the one and only Primordial that's been statted up is also Level 33). Here's something to keep in mind, though. Szass Tam has been pretty active for 100 years, while Elminster has essentially been a shut-in for the past century. So even if Elminster was more powerful than Szass Tam, that may no longer be true. So making him roughly comparable to Szass Tam may not be completely offbase.
I was waiting to see how Elminster would look with the 4e game rules, so I could tell if magic users were basically crap or good at higher levels. So instead of spec'ing Elminster, all Wizars does is 'explain' why he's a now based on the craptastic magic-using system in 4e rules?
ive been playing D&D since the Expert days in the late 70's. this is by FAR the worst incarnation of the gaming system ever conceived and published.
wizards has managed to kill D&D for me any for many of my old-school gamers.
oh, and please spare me the 'then just dont play 4e and play the older versions that youre happy with' argument
Rest in Piece D&D, right along side Gary himself. Im sure he is rolling in his grave.
Can you please elaborate on your 4th edition experience? I am an old timer who skipped 3.0+ entirely and see nothing wrong with the current incarnation that an experienced Dm can't fix to his liking or a new player is likely to not to notice.
From what I understand Elminster was more powerful then Szass Tam, going from his description I could asume that after all this time he is still at least his equal and start the creation from there.
worst edition ever, Gary Gygax rolling over in his grave...
because of no Elminster stats?
Szass Tam has been pretty active for 100 years, while Elminster has essentially been a shut-in for the past century.
-When did Elminster become "infected"? And, Ed Greenwood recently mentioned that the tidbit in the FRCG is..."misleading", and that Elminster is in a much different situation that what it seems. Note, I don't like this, but...
;)
If anyone wants to fight Elminster, then the DM should say "You Lose". Simple as that.
-When did Elminster become "infected"? And, Ed Greenwood recently mentioned that the tidbit in the FRCG is..."misleading", and that Elminster is in a much different situation that what it seems. Note, I don't like this, but...
I was under the impression that he's been out of it since the Spellplague, so he's likely been out of commission since 1385 DR.
But even so, Szass Tam isn't really all that weaker. In 3E terms, he's CR 31 while Elminster is CR 39. But if you look at their spellcaster levels, which is what really matters here, they're roughly equal. Elminster is Wizard 20/Archmage 5/Epic 4 while Szass Tam is Necromancer 10/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 2/Epic 7. The only real advantage Elminster has is his Chosen of Mystra status (which he's lost) and those six miscellaneous levels he's got. Szass Tam is already on par with Elminster when it comes to spellcasting. Take that other stuff away, and they're roughly equal (In fact, Elminster would have CR 29 to Tam's CR 31).
So IMO, Elminster being pretty much on par with Szass Tam in 4E wouldn't be all that inaccurate. Hell, with his Chosen status stripped from him, it may be appropriate to make Elminster slightly weaker, as Tam is still a Lich. I'm thinking Level 29 Elite Artillery to Tam's 30. Slightly weaker than Tam, but still tougher than the much more powerful in 4E Manshoon and Fzoul.
I agree with Webster. He is like a 7th Sea NPC named the O'Bannon. For his stats it said he had none. It did say though that when he needs to succeed for the story he does and when he needs to fail he does that also. I am fine with that type of Uber NPC.
I was under the impression that he's been out of it since the Spellplague, so he's likely been out of commission since 1385 DR.
-Is that confirmed, or...? Because, as we're skirting around, 104 years of inactivity is a lot different than, say, 6.
...and those six miscellaneous levels he's got.
-Which wouldn't disappear, mind you. But, how 4e does multiclassing confuses me, so...
He is like a 7th Sea NPC...
-That sounds familiar...What is that?
Actually, it's a good thing. Elminster shouldn't be solving the world's problems, the player's characters are.
If anyone wants to fight Elminster, then the DM should say "You Lose". Simple as that.
-People playing "good guys" have the stats for challenges appropriate to their level. People playing "bad guys" don't have stats for challenges appropriate to their level (in 'famous' NPCs). Thus, if they want to tangle with them like the "good guys" tangle with 'bad' NPCs, they'll need them.
If you like The Princess Bride or Pirate of Johnny Depp than you would like
7Th Sea. :D
-Is that confirmed, or...? Because, as we're skirting around, 104 years of inactivity is a lot different than, say, 6.
Don't remember where I saw it, but that was the impression I got. And according to the FRCG, "his powers have diminished since Mystra’s fall". It makes another mention of Elminster's power diminishing when talking about his holding back the Drow in the Tasseldale entry. Not exactly concrete, of course. But we have heard of Elminster being afraid to use his magic for whatever reason. Combine that with what happened to him as a result of the Spellplague, and one can surmise that those events led to his unwillingness to use magic, and so he's spent the better part of a century unwilling to use magic, and has probably been sitting around the Silverhand farm the whole time not doing much.
-Which wouldn't disappear, mind you. But, how 4e does multiclassing confuses me, so...
It's a tough question, as there's two avenues to take. One can write him up either as a PC, or one can write him up as an NPC.
If it's the former case, then they would disappear, as 4E multiclassing is far different than 3E multiclassing. A direct conversion of Elminster would probably involving making him a Level 29 Wizard, with one or two Cleric multiclass Feats and maybe a few other Feats to represent his training as a Fighter and a Rogue. Specifically Weapon Proficiency (Longsword), Skill Training (Stealth), and Skill Training (Thievery). That's what a conversion of Elminster in pc terms would likely look like, with those 6 extra levels being reduced to Feats.
In the latter case, he'd probably still be converted to around Level 29. But because NPC's don't have to follow the rules for PC's, he could be given whatever abilities the creator deems appropriate, including Cleric, Rogue, and Fighter abilities. Either way, I imagine a conversion would result in him being Level 29. He was Level 29 in 2E, and his spellcaster levels added up to 29 in 3E, so given that he likely hasn't done much in the past century, he'll probably be about the same, hence he'll stay Level 29 (after 100 years Szass Tam, who appears to have been pretty busy, picked up only one level, after all).
Can you please elaborate on your 4th edition experience? I am an old timer who skipped 3.0+ entirely and see nothing wrong with the current incarnation that an experienced Dm can't fix to his liking or a new player is likely to not to notice.
From what I understand Elminster was more powerful then Szass Tam, going from his description I could asume that after all this time he is still at least his equal and start the creation from there.
My experience with 4e leads me to this analysis on the gaming system in general:
1. 4e was SUPPOSED to be simpler to use and be less crunchy than 3e+. my group played 4e for several weekends and it was obvious to us all that there was so much more tracking of used powers, bloodied effects, healingsurges used, synergy bonuses based on other PCs' used powers, etc, that it became a book-keeping nightmare and detracted from fun at the table.
2. As PCs rise in levels, sure they get new powers, but these new powers dont grow in strength proportionnate to the level of the PC.
3. As PCs rise in levels, Mages dont get more combat-style spells per day, fighters dont get more attacks per round, etc.
4. The D&D game concept had been transformed from a well-balanced Might vs. Magic system to one that dramatically favored Might over Magic.
5. The FRCS world required a major overhaul in order to make it fit within the 4e rules system. Taking a long-cherished, beloved campaign setting, one rich with magical wonder and tradition, and simply explaining away why the world no longer is the same simply by stating 'the god of magic was murdered and the weave collapsed and all spellcasters either went insane or enfeebled or were physically transformed by the event' feels more like trying to a fit a square peg in a round hole.
6. I was waiting to see what El's stats, etc would look like so i could tell what a high-level mage would look like under a watered-down system of spellcasting. Given that monsters who traditionally fling spells routinely were either sorely lacking from the Monster Manual, or dramatically changed for the worse to fit with the 4e rules (i.e. chromatic dragons dont cast spells? demons and devils dont cast spells? WTF??), there really hasnt been anything published a guide so players can say, 'aha! 4e IS cool for magic users'.
7. It seemed to my group and I, all experience players with at least a decade of hard-core pencil & paper fantasy roleplaying under each of our belts, that the 4e rules system felt much more akin to am MMO FRP than a P&P FRP.
btw, why are there any metallic and/or 'good' dragons in the MM? are we not supposed to fight them or something?
btw, why are there any metallic and/or 'good' dragons in the MM? are we not supposed to fight them or something?
-I believe so, yes.
Elminster: *Powers up!*
Sazz Tam: "What does the identification enchanted scroll say about his caster level?!"
Jarlaxel: *Crushes the scroll* "..It's over nine-thousaaannndd!!!"
Sazz Tam: "What?! Nine-Thousand?!"
(Inside joke): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBtpyeLxVkI
Does Elminster's hair get silver and all 'spikey'? :D
BTW, I heard someone at CK say that El was a Wiz 0 now, but I don't know if he was just making a joke or what.
BTW, I heard someone at CK say that El was a Wiz 0 now, but I don't know if he was just making a joke or what.
-A joke. He still has his Wizard levels, or else he wouldn't be afraid of casting magic. It'd be impossible to cast magic without Wizard levels.
I LOVE that line from Braveheart. :D
Does he shoot Thunderbolts out his arse?
-No.
-No.
- Source? ;)
-The sourcebook Elminster's Ecology.
Elminster's Ecology says that Elminster doesn't shoot thunderbolts out of his arse? What an odd distinction to make in a sourcebook...
What has Elminster to do with drow in Tasseldale?
Why do you think it was named 'Tasseldale'?
Back in the days when the Twisted Tower played host to the goodly Drow of Cormanthor, Elminster was a huge fan of the Dark Elven 'Tassel Dance' (I'll leave it up to your imagination where the Tassels were placed).
After the Evil Drow took the tower away from the good Drow, the few survivors made their way to the site of future Tasseldale. There, in a clearing, Elminster used his magic* to create a Tavern, where men of the Dales could stop and have a Mead or two and watch the Drow Tassel Dance. After a time, a town grew up around the popular nightspot - the Town of Tasseldale.
*This was the first know usage of the spell Elminster's Magnificent Topless Bar.
:D
This was the first know usage of the spell Elminster's Magnificent Topless Bar.
Sounds like a 4th ed ritual to me... level 30 (getting all ladies topless is an epic achievement)
Gomez,
still without an FRCG...
I had thought it stated that his time in the realms was soon comming to an end? Since FR is aimed at 12 year olds, when he does die, it will be something amazing, blaze of glory, and forever changing the realms! Why can't he like, just die in some bed during his sleep? Or like, he's busy with a girl and some top assasin takes him out? But no, it must be epic right? Dragon Ball Z style.
Elminster: *Powers up!*
Sazz Tam: "What does the identification enchanted scroll say about his caster level?!"
Jarlaxel: *Crushes the scroll* "..It's over nine-thousaaannndd!!!"
Sazz Tam: "What?! Nine-Thousand?!"
(Inside joke): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBtpyeLxVkI
Of course if you use it on Larloch it has to explode just after seeing numbers rise quickly. ;) Sad about this is that I never came to write Krilins Killing Disc as an epic spell in 3.5..... well maybe a power now ;)
Elminster's Ecology says that Elminster doesn't shoot thunderbolts out of his arse? What an odd distinction to make in a sourcebook...
-Indeed.
-Wait, excuse me. The sourcebook I was thinking of was Elminster's Anatomy, not Elminster's Ecology.
-Wait, excuse me. The sourcebook I was thinking of was Elminster's Anatomy, not Elminster's Ecology.
Hitting E-Bay right now. I so need a copy of that.
The blurb about him the FRCS just made it sound like he's some crazy old man who works in his little farmhouse garden growing spell-plagued tomatoes...a.k.a. Elminster Kanobe...
I am not very happy about the description or the picture, I read somewhere that the description is not really accurate - and the picture (while I like the style of the artist) is terrible, he looks more like mage almighty than ever (the old look was more "stay a while and listen..... and you may sit on my lap if you are a pretty lass) and this puma cape
Ed once described elminster as an old fart he could use the dispens unreliable information about the realms (why didn´t they adopt this apprach again?) so that a DM could just say "the old fart made it all up". The fact that he made El a mighty mage was so that he wasn´t an easy kill for the players if he became annoying - but on the same time busy enough so that they players don´t come to him for every little kobold tribe...
So I guess with the new Edition he could fill the spot as unreliable sage again, and since he won´t be running arround saving everybody
and making some players feel "bad" (all those kill Elminster threats must have come from somewhere) he can just sit in his farm with his steaming hot "nurse" and live out his days in peace. He lost his goddess 2 times already and now its time that others take up the sword and protect Faerun.It's believable this time.
Hitting E-Bay right now. I so need a copy of that.
-I'll just say...It's not pretty.
However, stating Elminster is irrelevant. He won't use his magic for fear of losing control. Instead, simply give him enough hit points to survive an encounter and a magic item that will allow him to make a quick escape. If he is ever attacked, he just uses the item and runs away.
If for some reason he is caught and can't escape, he might try and fend them off with a weapon, using his magic only as a last resort. If he uses his magic, just have him blow up and die, screaming horribly as he explodes in a wild burst of energy. That would be the result of him losing control of his mind and whatever taking control of it not being able to control his power. (Think something similar to what happened when Mystra was killed and the resulting blue fire.)
Problem solved.
Oh yeah, and my Gnome Wizards crush your Goblin Paladins. :P
If the Forgotten Realms had its own separate rules system akin to Star Wars Saga, then yeah, I wouldn't mind it working within its own idiosynchracies. But if I'm playing D&D, I'd like it to play like D&D, no matter the world I'm in.
-At what point do you "trash" the unique features of the setting (that can be reflected mechanically) to utilize a 'uniform' blanket that can be applied everywhere?
Oh yeah, and my Gnome Wizards crush your Goblin Paladins. :P
-They would.
I found this today :
-At what point do you "trash" the unique features of the setting (that can be reflected mechanically) to utilize a 'uniform' blanket that can be applied everywhere?
If a feat, Prestige Class/Paragon Path, or other game feature could be used and is comparible to pre-existing ones, then you go with that. If there are certain "things" that don't translate well in D&D, well, I'd say you'd have to handwave them as the DM and block them from the player's reach.
I think everyone's missing the point. It's not even really about how's stated out or not. Depending on who's running the game, and how they feel about famous npc's is going to determine the outcome of an encounter. Here's an exercise... If you have the new FR campaign guide, go to page 113, and substitute Elminster for Ed Greenwood. This is how the whole system feels. It's not like previous versions of the game. The system worked with all the material, and yes, as was previously posted, a good GM would make the rules work for their players. What we have here is the world being totally remolded to fit the system. Something's backwards. Sorry, but look at spellcasting in general for the whole 4e system. Why in the world would anybody choose to go that route. Give me an army of goblin paladins and I'll take over the world.
Systems change, it changed from 2nd to 3rd and from 3rd to 4th. You can argue that wizards are all screwed now - but in all the reamls books I have read wizards were never really the glass cannons they were in 3rd. The fact that a wizard now has to do more in a fight than throw a fireball and loot the charred remains isn´t all that bad.
And if we look back, a wizard was always just 1 full attack from a rogue away from death - I don´t hear anyone crying about that - not even rogue players.
As about the world changes to fit the system.... no not really the case. Spellplague was used to explain the new magic system (like ToT back then) but most of the changes everyone cries about is the designers way to freshen up the setting to increase sales and bring a sense of mystery back.
Blaming 4th edition for the changes done to FR is has only a grain of truth in it. Without the new edition they would not have dared to bring out a new setting book - but most of the changes were intentional and not influenced by the rules.
-At what point do you "trash" the unique features of the setting (that can be reflected mechanically) to utilize a 'uniform' blanket that can be applied everywhere?
-They would.
Mind giving some examples for the unique features (aside from the Eladrin/elf mess) please ?
Mind giving some examples for the unique features (aside from the Eladrin/elf mess) please ?
-The Weave, for one (in citing that it could not exist with the 4e system of magic being implemented).
-The Weave, for one (in citing that it could not exist with the 4e system of magic being implemented).
The weave is one of the features where i can see why the designers felt they had to change something, but I don´t think that their solution was adding anything to the realms to justify the loss of Mystra and the weave.
The problem:Spellcasters in 3rd edition and sooner (pretty much anything with spells per day from bard to wizard) had to pray/meditate/memorize/or do nothing to refill their spells (for example, lolths clerics were in trouble since they no longer got new spells during the silence, a wizard keep from memorizing is about as dangeraus as a house cat).
Now in 4th edition they changed that:Clerics (and I guess every divine character) keep their powers once they have been given them, gods don´t check on eveyone and take their powers away if thei are naughty, and priests don´t have to pray to recieve their powers. The same is true for wizards, warlocks, swordmages .... once they learn a power it´s theirs. They no longer have to memorize their spells (ok wizards can exchange their utility powers and daily powers at the start of each day , and this presumably takes a moment or two, but they don´t actually have to change).
So the designers though that the weave as conduit for the spellcasters to access raw magic to fill their slots, was no longer usefull so they destroyed it. After the destruction spellcasters (as shown in Undead or Unclean) could not longer controll the more intricate spells, since were using the weaves full potential, but simple spells were still possible - at least in the first days after the destruction. After some time (though Tam was cheating big time) caster found ways to tap raw magic without using the weave and so the new magical traditions (classes) evolved.
Thats the canon, but it could have been done different. The old style was like sitting down on your computer plugiing in you MP3 player and dowloading music from the web (strangely the songs get deleted every time you listen - maybe the player is broken ;) ) you download your stuff and you can go out and listen t your music wherever and whenever you want (just not in dead-music zones, sorry :D )
The new system was more like a cell phone with built in MP3 player and internet access, you no longer have to sit down at home and prepare your music for the day, but since you connection at home was most likely quicker than the wireless one, you get less powerfull music :embarrass .
To translate this to the weave, the weave would have to change the her function. It used to be needed to access (memorize) and to cast the spells (so it doesn´t work in no-magic zones. Now the first point would be no longer matter, but it could still have been used as the method spells transform from the stuff that is inside you (magic mojo, divine energy) to lightning bolts, fireballs and storms of vengeance.
To explain this change, you could either retcon it or to something to explain it like the changes from Netheril magic, and from 2nd to 3rd edition. My take on it would be like this:
After the events in Cormyr tearing of the Weave, Shadowdale (can´t remember name ) and Anaruoch (ditto) Shars servants had managed to rend some serious holes in the weave, each attempt was stopped by a valiant group of heroes but the damage already done was severe. Mystra was trying hard to repair the damge done (even sending some of ther chose to help) but in the end she could no keep the holes in the weave closed as long as Shar was using the shadow weave under her controll.
After calling all her chosen back to her they started a ritual that would protect the weave from further attacks and make it whole again -but at a great price. Mystra had to take back all the divine power she had, as AO commanded, stored in her chosen and added what little power was left from Mystril to the ritual. Shar tryed her very best to stop her, but could only win a small victory.
The weave and the shadow weave were forged together as if they had always been to separate parts of the same grand design. This resulted in some changes to the way the weave works:
-The weave is now so "thick" that spellcasters can access it to bring spell effects into existance and no longer have to commit spells to memory - they are now only limited by their own limits (at-will,encounter,daily powers explanation).
-While Mystra managed to wrestle controll over the shadow weave from Shar she lost the power to prevent any beeing from accessing the weave too. However she can still feel weave usage, but it´s much harder for her now so only powerfull rituals and powers get her attention, unless she already is interrested in a person.
-Mystra and Shar have both have the new weave in their portfolio, but while Mystra holds the portfolio of general magic, Shar has shadow magic and is revered as deity of magic by the shadovar.
Mystras choosen were so weakened by the ritual that mystra put them in spell-sleep so they could restore their health. Some have returend to Faerun after weeks, but others still rest in Mystras realm.
Sorry it´s long but well I guess it would work for me, now I´ll have to take the time to find a logical way for Mystra to reform from all the spellplague arround 100 years later....
The weave is one of the features where i can see why the designers felt they had to change something, but I don´t think that their solution was adding anything to the realms to justify the loss of Mystra and the weave.
-I can understand the notion that it needs to be changed for a smooth transition, but it does not make sense to have the entire thing axed. Especially with the Weave, and it being an explanation of the source of magic, being a unique feature of the setting.
Watch Dragon ball, much? ;)
Does Elminster's hair get silver and all 'spikey'? :D
BTW, I heard someone at CK say that El was a Wiz 0 now, but I don't know if he was just making a joke or what.
Not Elminster hair, your hair get silver and spikey when he start casting at you.
Did i mention your skin also become white.
-I can understand the notion that it needs to be changed for a smooth transition, but it does not make sense to have the entire thing axed. Especially with the Weave, and it being an explanation of the source of magic, being a unique feature of the setting.
I agree finding a reason to explain the change would have been way less destructive - but I guess they wanted to axe the chosen anyways to make it more point of light.....
Not Elminster hair, your hair get silver and spikey when he start casting at you.
Did i mention your skin also become white.
I guess the description could fit the simbul when she gets into overdrive mode.
If anyone wants to fight Elminster, then the DM should say "You Lose". Simple as that.
I can't agree with this. One of the best parts of 4E so far has been that there aren't any 'You Lose Lawl' NPCs. You can fight Orcus. You can fight Bane. Chances are they'll kill you so dead you'll come back to life only to die all over again, but you can try.
Unless the NPC is a literal force of nature, like Ravenloft's Dark Powers, I think that anything should be able to be challenged. If I'm running an evil game, or even an unaligned game, maybe I want Elminster or Drizz'it to be my 'end boss'. Maybe I think either legendary, well known hero being tricked or manipulated into fighting my PCs would be an awesome session-one that doesn't have to end in death for either side, since fighting to knock a sucker out is as simple as saying as much these days.
And sure, I can make the stats myself easy enough. I'm just saying that, "This guy is so much better than you that we're not even going to stat the dude." is a philosophy that I hope 4E continues to avoid.
The question is... WHY do you want Elminster statted? So your PC's can pick a fight? So you can see who's "best" of Szass and Elminster?
I wanted Elminster statted so I could see how a mostly-pure ultra-high-level spellcaster-type would look like in 4e, being as how ever published 4e source book has coincidentally and overtly been missing any kind of high level magic-using type.
It makes it appear that WotC (pronounced 'H-a-s-b-r-o'...) is going out of its way to not have to admit that they 'got it wrong'.
I wanted Elminster statted so I could see how a mostly-pure ultra-high-level spellcaster-type would look like in 4e
You gotta remember that NPC's aren't written in the same manner as PC's, anymore. Although if you do want to look at a high-level spellcasting NPC, check out Szass Tam in the FRCG, as he's level 30, or Manshoon, who's level 28.
being as how ever published 4e source book has coincidentally and overtly been missing any kind of high level magic-using type.
"Coincidentally"? Aside from the FRCG, in which book were they supposed to put a high-level spellcasting NPC? What other sourcebooks have come out since June? The answer to that is zero. We're talking a whopping 2 months since the release of 4E. All they've had since then have been adventures (Which are intended to take PC's from levels 1-30, so you're not going to find Level 30 NPC's of any stripe in an adventure intended for level 1-6 players), the DM's screen, dungeon tiles, and a character record sheet book. So what sourcebook among those was supposed to have high-level spellcaster NPC's?
as to the previous reply regarding perusal of epic-tier daily powers, thats just my point - you can use a power only once a day and then you need to rest to get it back?? thats insane
they have sample higher-level characters of every other class.
Where?
also, higher-level spellcasting monsters are either non-existent or drastically altered in the MM. I cite rakshasas, devils and demons, dragons, ogre mage, etc.
Making them more reliant on their racial abilities makes them more characterful. Besides, once again, an NPC build isn't really a good indication of a PC build, as they use different rules.
as to the previous reply regarding perusal of epic-tier daily powers, thats just my point - you can use a power only once a day and then you need to rest to get it back?? thats insane
The same is true for every single class, so it's not as if the Wizard is some weird exception. Though there are various ways of recovering used up Daily spells. The Archmage Epic Destiny, for instance, provides three such ways. Spell Recall allows you to cast one Daily spell twice per day. Archspell allows you to treat a Daily spell as an Encounter spell. The Shape Magic Utility power gives you the daily ability to recover an expended spell.
When it comes to Paragon Paths, the Spellstorm Mage gives you the Storm Spell ability, which allows you a chance to recover an expended spell once per day, possibly gaining a Daily spell back. Then there're Feats. Arcane Mastery lets you get back an expended Daily spell once per encounter when you use an Action Point.
So it's not as if there aren't plenty of options. And even without them, you're no worse off than any other class.
they have sample higher-level characters of every other class. also, higher-level spellcasting monsters are either non-existent or drastically altered in the MM. I cite rakshasas, devils and demons, dragons, ogre mage, etc.
as to the previous reply regarding perusal of epic-tier daily powers, thats just my point - you can use a power only once a day and then you need to rest to get it back?? thats insane
Those spells require a large enough expenditure of energy that it requires rest to use it again. They should however allow the 3.5 idea that a higher level slot could be used to cast a lower level spell. For instance if you have already cast a 15th level daily spell, you should be able to sacrifice your 19th level daily spell to cast the 15th level spell again.
Actually, it's a good thing. Elminster shouldn't be solving the world's problems, the player's characters are.
I would agree that Elminster doesn't need to be statted up. That said, I don't think Elminster was ever meant to be a "global problem-solver" in lieu of the PCs.
Drizz'it
Drizzt. Just letting you know.;)
There are no levels above 30, so Elminster is, at the most, level 30.
EDIT: D'OH! I'm still thinking in terms of PC writeups. An NPC writeup can be a few levels higher. Though I doubt he's more then two or three levels higher, as Greater Gods are apparently Level 38 or so. By way of example, Szass Tam is Level 30.
You do mean... there are no levels above 30... yet...., right? :P
Ever since the whole concept of "leveling" became important, the level you are at appears to be little more than a status symbol of "who" you are and "what" knowledge you posess. IOW... it's predominantly meaningless.
I highly suspect that means I'll be supporting the rebels until the realms is brought to it's knees, and the proper authorities reinstated..
Soooo...
worst edition ever, Gary Gygax rolling over in his grave...
because of no Elminster stats?
Elminster has little to do with it. The fact that 4e is a totally
version of D&D has far more to do with things. Essentially, some moron decided that it would be best to "reimagine" D&D without all of the primary races, and yet, included such abhorations was the "Dragonborn" and "Tieflings."
Apparently, someone forgot that Tieflings to always be "bad".... and are something that must be sought after and destroyed AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.-
Of course, one could typically count on their friendly gnomes for reconosanse information.... as they tended to be, at the very lease, neutral. Gnomes, being common in any given party, would likely have picked up on such bizarre disturbances.
4e is in the infancy stage here people. I love how people claim that there is no place for a high level wizard in 4e. Their defense is to state that no 'high level' example currently exists in any of the books. Fine and good.
The problem is that because 4e wiped the slate clean, we're technically functioning with barely 1/3rd of the system in place. PHB2 anyone? Which will be followed by PHB3, then PHB4. THEN the system will be complete (and ready for more splat books).
To compare ONLY the PHB to the vast wealth of books that exist in all previous editions and come to the conclusion the 4e sucks because it is missing X, Y and Z is simply short sighted.
Take a break, go play some other editions or other games for a few years and let 4e catch up. See how things look after every power source has been established and all of the focus books for each power source come out.
Just my two cents.
Drizzt. Just letting you know.;)
-Thanks for catching that. That slipped by me!
Ever since the whole concept of "leveling" became important, the level you are at appears to be little more than a status symbol of "who" you are and "what" knowledge you posess. IOW... it's predominantly meaningless.
-Not necessarily. At...what is it, 6th Level, you can have a maximum of ten ranks in a non-cross class skill. So, if you have some sage-like character max out his ranks of Knowledge: History, and he has a 18 INT, that's a +14 to Knowledge: History checks. I'd consider someone such as that a 'leader' in his/her field, and he/she'd only be Level 6.
You do mean... there are no levels above 30... yet...., right?
Nope. 30 levels, period. There won't be an Epic Level Handbook or anything of the sort because we've already got epic levels built into the PHB. Epic Destinies all end with the PC leaving the game at about level 30. The game is built around the idea of the campaign ending when you hit level 30. There won't be any additional levels beyond that.
Essentially, some moron decided that it would be best to "reimagine" D&D without all of the primary races, and yet, included such abhorations was the "Dragonborn" and "Tieflings."
The PHB includes humans, half-elves, elves, dwarves, and halflings. Gnomes are statted as PC's in the Monster Manual. So what "primary race" is missing? Half-Orcs? I guess 2nd edition wasn't really D&D, then, as the 2E PHB didn't have Half-Orcs, either.
Apparently, someone forgot that Tieflings to always be "bad".... and are something that must be sought after and destroyed AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.-
Since when has that been the case? Tieflings were a player race in the Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set way back in 2nd edition. They've been a player race in the Forgotten Realms for eight years. If they're a player race in Planescape and Forgotten Realms, then why not in the PHB?
Gnomes, being common in any given party
They are? Cause I barely see them. I've seen two Gnomes played throughout the entire span of 2E, and I played one of them, while the other was a Svirfneblin, rather than a regular Gnome. I saw one other player in 3E play a Gnome. That's pretty much it.
Except that Gnomes, and their homeland of Lantan, in the Forgotten Realms were totally obliterated by tidal waves caused by the impact of Toril's twin planet impacting Toril...yet another minor tidbit of history used to explai away previous data in order to make it fit with 4e rules (in this case, there's no gnome PC class...)
I don't recall that Lantan was "the gnome homeland", and in fact most inhabitants of that island were human.
Also, it's already been stated that there are still gnomes in the Realms.
-Thanks for catching that. That slipped by me!
You're welcome.;)
I don't recall that Lantan was "the gnome homeland", and in fact most inhabitants of that island were human.
-Right. Lantanese Gnomes were very much in the minority on the island.
-Why not?
It's frankly a waste of space. Get in some useful information, such as, oh I don't know, how Cyric snuck up on Mystra and killed her in her own domain, not far from the god of oracles.
Unless Shar clouded his vision like some Sith (Unclear, the future is. Sense I can, anger in you. Half a galaxy away. Sense I cannot, a clone horde about to whack us), I cannot see how he did that. Or Cyric's wielding Godsbane again.
Aaaaaaah, Mask you wee devil you! Think we just figured out where Mask went.
He's found himself in a world he doesn't recognise, with a magic system that he doesn't understand nor like, so he has just decided to let things be.
I'm guessing old El is just depressed, and I'm guessing that his depression is going to last until 5E.
...
But then, who knows? Maybe he'll die in a blaze of glory, where he goes off to find Ao and insult him for butchering all that he has known in his long life.
I, for starters, would love to read that book.
so the premise that there will be no support for characters above 30th is only half true: there will be no support FOR NOW. I predict within a year or 2 there will be a 4.5e, repleat with a 'quasi-god-level handbook' for characters of 31+ levels...
I wanted Elminster statted so I could see how a mostly-pure ultra-high-level spellcaster-type would look like in 4e, being as how ever published 4e source book has coincidentally and overtly been missing any kind of high level magic-using type.
It makes it appear that WotC (pronounced 'H-a-s-b-r-o'...) is going out of its way to not have to admit that they 'got it wrong'.
Elminster was in 3rd ed no pure spellcaster! And for your spellcaster needs the did put Szas Tam into the books, if you want to see how a high powered Pc caster looks like the character optimization board has plenty.
ohh trust me...if there is nothing else Wizards and Hasbro has learned over the years, its that 30-and-40-somethings who game have lots of disposable income to buy new source books.
so the premise that there will be no support for characters above 30th is only half true: there will be no support FOR NOW. I predict within a year or 2 there will be a 4.5e, repleat with a 'quasi-god-level handbook' for characters of 31+ levels...
I agree with you about the money - but I am pretty shure that we will se a 3rd party pic up epic before wotc does.
Love the feel of the Realms, ignore all the details pumped out ever since, so the Realms is still Forgotten and mysterious...works much better ;)
The way I see it (with me being probably wrong anyhow) is that this "new" EL is a reflection of Ed himself.
-How can this "new" Elminster be a reflection of Ed Greenwood if the "old" Elminster was supposed to be a reflection of Ed Greenwood?
However, Waterdeep still stands undamaged post-Spellplague. Silverymoon is still there. So is Mithral Hall and Cormyr. The Dalelands continue much the same as it ever was. Baldur's Gate and Candlekeep are still around. Thay is more dangerous than ever, the Zhentarim is still a threat, and Nethril may very well conquer the world if heroes can't stop it. Each one of these iconic places in Faerun have been largely untouched by the Spellplague.
I never had a love for the NPCs of the Realms. I loved the places. Elminster, Drizzt and the rest of them could **** off, imho. I was too busy telling stories about fantastic places where my PCs could explore and conquer to include the "cannon" NPCs. When I needed an old sage I still never used Eliminster - instead I would bring back a retired PC to fill the role. Why use a Gandalf clone (and he is, always has been, and always will be a Gandalf clone) when any one of my retired PCs was much more interesting?
I guess my point is that FR is still by-and-large the FR, just with all the crappy places replaced... like Unther being replaced by Tyrmanther. The places and communities finally have the spotlight, not the cannon NPCs.
However, Waterdeep still stands undamaged post-Spellplague. Silverymoon is still there. So is Mithral Hall and Cormyr. The Dalelands continue much the same as it ever was. Baldur's Gate and Candlekeep are still around. Thay is more dangerous than ever, the Zhentarim is still a threat, and Nethril may very well conquer the world if heroes can't stop it. Each one of these iconic places in Faerun have been largely untouched by the Spellplague.
Even if they were "largely untouched" by the Spellplague, they haven't gone unchanged with the passage of 100 years. What they are in 1479 DR might be fine for you, but you can't expect everyone to feel the same way.
I never had a love for the NPCs of the Realms.
Fine, but I did. So did other people.
I guess my point is that FR is still by-and-large the FR, just with all the crappy places replaced... like Unther being replaced by Tyrmanther. The places and communities finally have the spotlight, not the cannon NPCs.
I don't even agree with your premises, here. I don't agree that every replaced area used to be "crappy," and I certainly don't agree that only NPcs had the spotlight before.
*This was the first know usage of the spell Elminster's Magnificent Topless Bar.
Is this canon? I can't remember reading this anywhere.
Sorry, but look at spellcasting in general for the whole 4e system. Why in the world would anybody choose to go that route. Give me an army of goblin paladins and I'll take over the world.
There are a myriad number of reasons to choose 4e over prior editions. I have been on board with FR since it was first released, and each edition left me more and more disappointed until 4e. 4th edition spellcasters have returned to the plane of mortals and are now one story element amongst many instead of a magical multi-tool. With Ritual Casting we have the spell as story element make a return from its long banishment, since by 3rd edition it had become a "press to solve" button. Also a spellcaster in 4th edition never runs out of spells, something that was usually obvious in 3rd when the caster in question would break out some kind of ranged weapon and try to be relevant. Seriously why would you want to play a caster in any other edition, unless you liked playing virtual gods who were fully capable of lording it over their friends in a group game. I take that back 1st edition did not have that problem, and neither did 2nd, but 3rd, really? Near invincible characters make for poor roleplay, poor storytelling, and poor gaming in general, and that is why we will hopefully never see a return to designers giving only some classes real love.
Anyway if you really want an edition feast you should really be fanning the flames of indignation on the General Discussion board amongst any number of current ongoing "heated" debates.
This is why I like the new edition and the lack of stats. I decide an NPCs power completely for my own purposes.
Many of the stories told about him are exaggerations perpetuated by his legendary status. The Flight of Dragons, for example. It is said that Elminster participated in this legendary battle, and so he did. But not in the way that legend remembers him. There was a lot of magic being thrown about that day, and Elminster was present at several of the battles, recording events as they happened. Probably, someone witnessed a magical effect cast by another wizard and saw Elminster at the scene, and the legend took off from there.
He is long-lived, but not immortal, and he IS favored of several deities, as well as a LOT of powerful mortal allies. Most of these folks are well aware of his "secret" and are perfectly content to let him do as he does. His actual magical ability is probably equal to that of a 6th level mage (2E).
For his part, Elminster is a wealth of information, though getting it out of him may prove somewhat difficult. He has a penchant for puzzles and riddles, and often couches his information in the form of such. Elminster does have a fair number of powerful magical items at his disposal, mostly due to having friends in high places, and these help to account for a lot of the legendary abilities often attributed to him.
Frankly, I didn't have stats for Elminster. He was a DM's mouthpiece; he had whatever ability he needed at the time that it was needed. If it called for a magical effect that would normally be impossible for him, he had an appropriate magical item handy (the players didn't know the difference). He moved at the speed of plot (to borrow a phrase from J. Michael Straczynski). The how never really mattered; after all, he was an archmage (so far as anyone in the general public knew).
He had a habit of "just happening" to be present everywhere the PCs were. If they were in a tavern in a small village, he would happen to be there drinking with an old friend. If they were in a crowded marketplace, they would spot his hat and distinctive pipe smoke above the sea of people. He has appeared in a musty crypt that the PCs were investigating ("thinking," was the answer he gave when they asked him what he was doing there), floating in wildspace (Spelljammer), on the astral plane, on a battlefield, and even on the lowest level of a dungeon, seemingly oblivious to his surroundings.
Sure, I had all the materials and books and write-ups that give his vast history, and his status as an immortal, and a Chosen of Mystra, but in the end, it was a lot more fun to rule that he was just a lonely little man with a grand imagination, and the wherewithal to make it stick!
Is this canon? I can't remember reading this anywhere.
No.
But it should be. :D
That was just me up on my soapbox... as usual... :embarrass
As for Elminster's stats - its like this. For some bizarre reasons, there is a certain cross-section of D&D players that assume anything with stats is a 'monster', and you need to kill it. I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with folks thinking like that, but they do indeed exist (you see them once in awhile on the boards, asking things like "How can I kill Ao?")
So 4e avoids that by not stating stuff. If you stat it, people will try to kill it, so you just don't stat stuff you don't want the psycho's to go after.
I guess my point is that FR is still by-and-large the FR, just with all the crappy places replaced... like Unther being replaced by Tyrmanther. The places and communities finally have the spotlight, not the cannon NPCs.
Agreed.
Note this is coming from someone who's played in the setting from the start.
I don't like all that was changed. Heavy handed and dumb are words I'd use to describe much of what WotC did.
But in essence it is still the Realms.
So what, you think TSR and stuff like the ToT was heavy handed and dumb then? :D
Time to step into the wayback machine.....
Personally I didn't like the changes. Gone were Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul, not to mention Mystra, whom I couldn't believe was gone. In their place were mortals that were in no way inscrutable or mysterious.
I remember that our gaming group more or less ignored the Time of Troubles after trying and failing at finishing the railroad-style adventures that event spawned. We had the new AD&D 2nd Edition rules and soon after places like Undermountain and Phlaan to explore, so we had much to occupy us with anyway.
I think it was at that point that I realized as a D&D player I was starting to look on the setting as a fictional place in the sense of it being an alternate world that I read about but never participated in. The Realms that we played D&D in was becoming entirely separate from the one I was reading about in the novels, because I didn't like accepting that so much had changed or been replaced.
Before the ToT I never, ever thought of things being separate like this. When I read a novel like Darkwalker on Moonshae, the events that happened there were part of the same world my characters occupied.
It left me feeling like I'd lost something.
Fast forward back to now and I find I still don't like the ToT and what it did. Although I think it's an important lesson for DMs to learn that excluding elements of a campaign setting that don't fit is not only OK but sometimes necessary (as opposed to matching a campaign to the setting exactly; which many DMs did back then) the method of teaching this lesson via the ToT was too harsh.
Time to step into the wayback machine.....
Personally I didn't like the changes. Gone were Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul, not to mention Mystra, whom I couldn't believe was gone. In their place were mortals that were in no way inscrutable or mysterious.
I agree. The Realms didn't really become my setting-of-choice until 3E (before then, I had played my homebrew world and nothing but, and even in third edition I played it as much as FR). However, I was reading the novels when they came out and I was sad to see the Dark Three and Mystra bite the bullet so some new guys could ascend to power. In my 3E FR game, I let it slide (especially since Bane was back and I accepted the new Mystra), but the Spellplague gave me the perfect excuse to bring back Myrkul and Bhaal (whom my friends had never much liked); at the same time, I downgraded Cyric.
In my 3E FR game, I let it slide (especially since Bane was back and I accepted the new Mystra), but the Spellplague gave me the perfect excuse to bring back Myrkul and Bhaal (whom my friends had never much liked); at the same time, I downgraded Cyric.
Nice..
Hells maybe I ought to do the same thing! Who needs Asmodeus anyway. ;)
As for Bhaal, his sentience returned during the Spellplague; the malignant essence left behind in Boareskyr Bridge took form and gave Bhaal new life. He quickly began to get the rust off, slaying anyone he encountered. He even managed to gain new followers and take over Hill's Edge for a time. He built his strength back up and eventually reached the level of Demipower once he was awarded the Assassins portfolio again. Able to return to the divine realms, he headed to Banehold; Bane was ecstatic to see his other old friend come (and submit) to him. Bhaal proved his worth by slaying Finder Wyvernspur; he lured him back to the prison plane Finder had spent time in, then ripped him away into Bane's plane when Finder's defenses were down. Finder didn't stand a chance on enemy turf. Nowadays, Bhaal is the Lesser God of Assassins and Murder (the latter of which he won after Cyric's downfall; see below).
As for Cyric's downfall, he and Shar became drunk with power. Eventually, Shar realized her greatest threat (on her side of the field) was not Cyric, but Bane. Shar convinced Cyric to help her strike down Bane, and relishing the chance to knock off his greatest rival, Cyric agreed (This was, if I recall from my notes, sometimein the early decades of the 1400s). Cyric challenged Bane to a duel under Ao's witness, on a neutral plane which would provide them with an equal playing field. Bane agreed, but he sensed Cyric was up to something. The two fought and clashed, and when things were looking down for Cyric, he unleashed his ace in the hole. Shar leapt from Cyric's shadow and tried to strike down Bane. However, Bane had anticipated just this, and used his greater ace in the hole. As Shar jumped from Cyric's shadow, so too did Mask (an established ally of Bane's) leap from her own*. Mask quickly struck Cyric a grave blow while Bane fended off Shar. With the chips down, Shar fled, and the two victors took Cyric to Banehold in chains (a play on his similarity to Loki). Once at Banehold, the two pummeled the divine stuffing out of Cyric, ripping apart his divine spark, and leaving Cyric with only the portfolios of Lies, Madness, and Intrigue; he was at this point a lesser power. Cyric remained in Bane's dungeons (he wasn't going to get off with a quick death), until Bane sent him to Talona as a captive. Talona had reached the rank of Greater Power (which I always felt was befitting the deity of Pestilence), and his ties with her had soured. Cyric was sent as a gift, a slave for Talona ("mental illness" is still an illness). Talona accepted, and her alliance with Bane was restored.
So, all in all, Bane is more powerful than ever, as is Mask (who has survived up to now), Myrkul and Bhaal are back, albeit weaker, and Cyric is a lesser power with little prospect for the future. I plan on reworking Cyric's nature. He'll still wander into things like the chaotic little fiend he is, but he'll be a bit more intelligent about it, and he won't do it as often. I want to bring him more in line with Loki, though I also want him to learn the value of patience and planning (he won't usually adhere to these things, but when he does, he'll truly be a threat again).
*This was a vision in Paul Kemp's works. While I'm sure he has something up his sleeve for it in his new trilogy, I decided to make it work for me now.
Sorry, but look at spellcasting in general for the whole 4e system. Why in the world would anybody choose to go that route. Give me an army of goblin paladins and I'll take over the world.
There are a myriad number of reasons to choose 4e over prior editions. I have been on board with FR since it was first released, and each edition left me more and more disappointed until 4e. 4th edition spellcasters have returned to the plane of mortals and are now one story element amongst many instead of a magical multi-tool. With Ritual Casting we have the spell as story element make a return from its long banishment, since by 3rd edition it had become a "press to solve" button. Also a spellcaster in 4th edition never runs out of spells, something that was usually obvious in 3rd when the caster in question would break out some kind of ranged weapon and try to be relevant. Seriously why would you want to play a caster in any other edition, unless you liked playing virtual gods who were fully capable of lording it over their friends in a group game. I take that back 1st edition did not have that problem, and neither did 2nd, but 3rd, really? Near invincible characters make for poor roleplay, poor storytelling, and poor gaming in general, and that is why we will hopefully never see a return to designers giving only some classes real love.
Anyway if you really want an edition feast you should really be fanning the flames of indignation on the General Discussion board amongst any number of current ongoing "heated" debates.
tell me about it.i dont even play anymore and im glad looks like where running out of..."DM'S" up to the task...is it a board game now?does a mage even have a spell book or materials anymore?I think gary G wouldnt either dude!
)He is also Volo, think about it, Elminster wears a hat, Volo wears a hat, coincidence? You be the judge.
Anyway back to the question....Whats up with the almighty Elmister Stats 4 4th?Love to c this...ha.Shure ed's not happy bout the "new"mangement either....got an idea why don't they just turn DND Fourth Edition to MyTnt4.0..Tweens n Teenagers/fbook/tweetybird/????/friendlyfinders?ttul......please...give me a break..lamo's with junior marketing strageties...that's to my disbeleive seems to be working????????????PLEASE give the intellegent people there game back D.O.C....(dont ask
Actually, I think Elminster would be better portrayed using a Monster stat block as they are un-boun by PC creation rules. And as such, does not have to adhere to Stat Arrays (at least, I believe so) and Feat limitations. Though, I would give him a handy plethora of magical items, rituals, and spellbooks. As for the references to the game being taken away from intellegent people, little tirades like that just make the complaints sound that much more childish.
sorry to blather on but what about any originality to seperate any players?you'll get more in a video game!really!how many beast master rangers are going to be on one board???hhhmmmm??
Actually, I've played quite a few games and I only saw 1 PC make a Beast Master style Ranger. But any originality comes mostly from the player, not the edition. If you find character creation in 4E lack-luster and boring, I'd look to yourself first and edition second.
For what it's worth, I've driven Elminster totally Halaster-level insane in my campaign. He comes off as a likeable old coot, easy to dispense knowledge and wisdom, but he is scheming and planning in his broken mind a way to resurrect his goddess for a THIRD time, in a very permanent way. He has agents gathering information for him, who trust him implicitly, believing all they share is for the good of the Realms. His goal is to gather as much of the old magics that exist as possible, as well as the Shadow of Ao. What happens then is anyone's guess.
Personally, I think he's a lot higher in level and if I were to put him up against my PCs, he'd have a few 29th level wizard spells and some Spell-fire effects for harnesing what's left of Mystra's power.