4e Manshoon and the Zhentarim - the Amnian Solution - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

4e Manshoon and the Zhentarim - the Amnian Solution

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
alexye
Sep 09, 2008 12:15:49 My 2 copper pieces on the 4e versions of Manshoon and the Zhentarim, the good and the bad. These views are canvassed largely from a DM perspective, rather than story continuity or Old Realms loyalism.

Let's start with the good. Firstly, if that is Manshoon on page 236-237 of the FRCG, it is a significant improvement from the 3e depiction of Manshoon, which I always felt to be (literally) a little too poofy, and Shredder-like. The new depiction of Manshoon seems a little more menacing. While I'm ambivalent about the vampire Manshoon being the sole survivor, I can see how this carves out a niche identity for Manshoon. Yes, he had that whole "clones" thing going on in 2e and 3e, but I think that ultimately just trivialized the character. What I wasn't too fond of was them taking Manshoon out of the metropolis to have him lurk around in a castle with a bunch of undead lackeys. Don't we already have that angle with Szass Tam? Manshoon was particularly memorable as a villain in 2e because he embodied the master manipulator, the wily politician and strategist who played his enemies against one another. That played out particularly well in his former role as a leader of a large metropolitan centre, given that cities are by nature hotbeds of political activity and intrigue. Now he’s just another evil undead wizard in a (cliché alert – mist shrouded) castle.

Along the same line, it irks me how the Zhentarim have been dumbed down to a group of vicious mercenaries. Notwithstanding their Keystone Kop depictions in the novels, the Zhentarim were always a rather compelling bunch in 2e because their evil wasn’t of the epicworldshatteringwe’retryingtoresurrectourdarkevilGod variety but more corporatist, more Machiavellian, less melodramatic. It made such a great backdrop and provided so many adventure hooks to have a widespread, beneath-the-surface organization conniving and blackmailing their way into controlling global trade and monopolizing trade routes. There were so many more shades of gray.

In 4e we already have a glut of epic evil – Netheril, Thay, Shar, the evil primordials; we have militant evil – Church of Bane, Netheril again; occult evil – think devil cults, Asmodeus, Cult of the Dragon – but whither Machiavelli, with the Zhentarim being reduced to a bunch of sellswords, and the Iron Throne gone? If 4e is all about increasing the size of the DM’s sandbox, it sells it a bit short to cut the original conception of the Zhentarim out of the picture, not to mention what is lost in terms of Realmsian flavour.

It was also great that in 2e the Zhentarim were riven with internal strife – the inner circle’s Manshoon, Fzoul and Semmemmon jockeying for power, Banites against Cyricists, Black Cloak against priests against beholders. That also gave a unique flavour to the Zhentarim, more distinct than your assembly-line monolithic evil (think shades again). This was eroded in 3e when they had Fzoul assume power, but 4e practically puts the last nail in that particular coffin.

I do see however a simple way to remedy all these flaws with 4e, which involves putting Manshoon and the Zhentarim back into cities. I’m talking about Amn. In its 4e iteration, Amn is the kind of merchantile, decadent place, that the original Zhentarim would have thrived in. With the Zhentarim forced eastwards, and the common theme of Cyricism, Amn is a ridiculously natural conceptual fit. Picture this – Manshoon pulling the strings of power in Athkatla and beyond, spinning his web of intrigue and subverting the Amnian elite to the clarion call of lucre and selfish interest, while his vampires infiltrate the nobles and merchant houses, tightening the Zhent grip and miring all in fluid treachery and mutual distrust. The displaced Shadow Thieves fight back with counter-subterfuge, feeding into the strife and larceny. Meanwhile, affiliated Cyricists carry out “random” acts of madness and morbidity against the dissenters, even as caravans carrying the banner of Amn trundle out under Zhent command, delivering contraband and slaves to the unscrupulous all across the world, extending the tendrils of Zhentarim influence far and wide across Toril.

It would even reduce the hackneyed-ness of Manshoon being “yet another vampire type villain” - far more inspired than vampires in some haunted fortress is the idea of vampires blending in and assimilating among cityfolk while feeding off them like they were cattle (think 3e Westgate, which IMHO was rather appealing)

Looking for thoughts on this – feel free to respond!

P.S. an unrelated question for the 4e conversant. The section on “Manshoon’s Tactics”, page 285, references a power called mind shatter which does not appear in Manshoon’s write up. Is this some nonspecific NPC power that can be referenced elsewhere or have I exposed shoddy editing?
#2
rinonalyrna_fathomlin
Sep 09, 2008 12:18:10 I thought Manshoon in a dress was perfectly menacing.:P

I do agree with your opinion on what was done with the Zhentarim, by the way.
#3
Aegeri
Sep 09, 2008 12:22:22
I do see however a simple way to remedy all these flaws with 4e, which involves putting Manshoon and the Zhentarim back into cities. I’m talking about Amn. In its 4e iteration, Amn is the kind of merchantile, decadent place, that the original Zhentarim would have thrived in. With the Zhentarim forced eastwards, and the common theme of Cyricism, Amn is a ridiculously natural conceptual fit. Picture this – Manshoon pulling the strings of power in Athkatla and beyond, spinning his web of intrigue and subverting the Amnian elite to the clarion call of lucre and selfish interest, while his vampires infiltrate the nobles and merchant houses, tightening the Zhent grip and miring all in fluid treachery and mutual distrust. The displaced Shadow Thieves fight back with counter-subterfuge, feeding into the strife and larceny. Meanwhile, affiliated Cyricists carry out “random” acts of madness and morbidity against the dissenters, even as caravans carrying the banner of Amn trundle out under Zhent command, delivering contraband and slaves to the unscrupulous all across the world, extending the tendrils of Zhentarim influence far and wide across Toril.

This sounds like a pretty good idea to me and makes perfect sense. I don't really have any need for them at the moment, but if I decided to stick them back in this would be a great solution. Plus it reminds me of Baldurs Gate II.
#4
aseran
Sep 09, 2008 12:30:48 I'm for this, mainly. At least the part about them fitting in so very naturally to the new climate of Amn.

I can buy the Zhentarim's diminishment as a point of story progression, though. As a DM, I feel like this presents me with a unique opportunity. They're diminished, but far from being wiped out, and making every imaginable effort to reconnect, rebuild, and if at all possible in the process, cause as much pain and suffering to the ones that put them there as they can. Holding them back somewhat is the fracture between the Cyricists and those still loyal to Bane, which I see as still very much a factor, but this just adds another layer to it.

The Zhentarim are seething, vengeful, resourceful, ruthless, intelligent, determined, and mercilessly motivated. They can show up at any time, under the least convenient of circumstances (to our heroes). And this is true ten times over thanks to the fact that they've now got something to be all-of-the-above about.

Nothing is more dangerous than villains with an active, evolving agenda, and it makes for very dynamic campaign material. I have an aversion to the 'monolothic' type of villainy, exemplified with those such as Netheril and Thay, where you have the Big Bads sitting comfy at the top of the chain already with nothing to strive for but the ever-ambiguous intent of 'world domination' or what have you--not that it can't be used well, it's just not as interesting to me, a sentiment that doesn't seem all that uncommon here.
#5
ikki
Sep 10, 2008 15:35:42 sole survivor, huh?

So the simbuls and halasters manshoons, and that vampire.. that all agreed to share the world between them is all retconned? Actually there were like 9 listed and known to be 40.
Well, many left faerun for other worlds via spelljamming or planehopping :P
#6
Nolwelen
Sep 10, 2008 19:12:36 @alexye: I felt the same way, they created some redundancy with making Manshoon another "Witch-King" or the "Backup Szass Tam". I especially like the term "machiavellian", it fits the original concept of the Zhentarim perfectly, since if they are anything then they are pragmatists. As bad as that is for a hero as good it is for a villain, because it causes them to be unpredictible. They would side with anyone - or at least would pretend to do it - to "win the advantage". And its not the advantage over the entire universe they want to maintain, the Red Wizards are the ones who single mindedly cling on to the fantasy of creating a worldspanning empire. No, the advantage the Zhents seek is the one over the other Zhents. Zhents dont believe open dictatorships could last long. They know if you openly assume control its just a matter of time until its contested. Thats why they stay behind the scene and secretly gather up all the strings they can get and at the same time do everything to prevent others from doing the same. To real Zhents their organisation is nothing more than another tool to further their own machinations, just as good as any other organisation they are involved in. What makes their fellow Zhents to nothing more than other players in the game for control. Thats why I have some difficulty swallowing the notion of having religions struggling for power within the Blacknetwork. Real Zhents are atheists by nature and not fanatical zealots. The only thing they believe in are their own capabilities and thats it. To me it seems unreasonable and therefore unlikely for the Zhentarim to oppose the Netherese openly. They would asses their capabilities and resources and decide to side with them or at least to stand out of their way and observe them from a distance. Somehow this theme got more and more contradicted.

P.S.: Yes, I never liked Fzoul, I never took him serious as a Zhentarim, since he isnt one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 alexye Sep 09, 2008 12:15:49	My 2 copper pieces on the 4e versions of Manshoon and the Zhentarim, the good and the bad. These views are canvassed largely from a DM perspective, rather than story continuity or Old Realms loyalism. Let's start with the good. Firstly, if that is Manshoon on page 236-237 of the FRCG, it is a significant improvement from the 3e depiction of Manshoon, which I always felt to be (literally) a little too poofy, and Shredder-like. The new depiction of Manshoon seems a little more menacing. While I'm ambivalent about the vampire Manshoon being the sole survivor, I can see how this carves out a niche identity for Manshoon. Yes, he had that whole "clones" thing going on in 2e and 3e, but I think that ultimately just trivialized the character. What I wasn't too fond of was them taking Manshoon out of the metropolis to have him lurk around in a castle with a bunch of undead lackeys. Don't we already have that angle with Szass Tam? Manshoon was particularly memorable as a villain in 2e because he embodied the master manipulator, the wily politician and strategist who played his enemies against one another. That played out particularly well in his former role as a leader of a large metropolitan centre, given that cities are by nature hotbeds of political activity and intrigue. Now he’s just another evil undead wizard in a (cliché alert – mist shrouded) castle. Along the same line, it irks me how the Zhentarim have been dumbed down to a group of vicious mercenaries. Notwithstanding their Keystone Kop depictions in the novels, the Zhentarim were always a rather compelling bunch in 2e because their evil wasn’t of the epicworldshatteringwe’retryingtoresurrectourdarkevilGod variety but more corporatist, more Machiavellian, less melodramatic. It made such a great backdrop and provided so many adventure hooks to have a widespread, beneath-the-surface organization conniving and blackmailing their way into controlling global trade and monopolizing trade routes. There were so many more shades of gray. In 4e we already have a glut of epic evil – Netheril, Thay, Shar, the evil primordials; we have militant evil – Church of Bane, Netheril again; occult evil – think devil cults, Asmodeus, Cult of the Dragon – but whither Machiavelli, with the Zhentarim being reduced to a bunch of sellswords, and the Iron Throne gone? If 4e is all about increasing the size of the DM’s sandbox, it sells it a bit short to cut the original conception of the Zhentarim out of the picture, not to mention what is lost in terms of Realmsian flavour. It was also great that in 2e the Zhentarim were riven with internal strife – the inner circle’s Manshoon, Fzoul and Semmemmon jockeying for power, Banites against Cyricists, Black Cloak against priests against beholders. That also gave a unique flavour to the Zhentarim, more distinct than your assembly-line monolithic evil (think shades again). This was eroded in 3e when they had Fzoul assume power, but 4e practically puts the last nail in that particular coffin. I do see however a simple way to remedy all these flaws with 4e, which involves putting Manshoon and the Zhentarim back into cities. I’m talking about Amn. In its 4e iteration, Amn is the kind of merchantile, decadent place, that the original Zhentarim would have thrived in. With the Zhentarim forced eastwards, and the common theme of Cyricism, Amn is a ridiculously natural conceptual fit. Picture this – Manshoon pulling the strings of power in Athkatla and beyond, spinning his web of intrigue and subverting the Amnian elite to the clarion call of lucre and selfish interest, while his vampires infiltrate the nobles and merchant houses, tightening the Zhent grip and miring all in fluid treachery and mutual distrust. The displaced Shadow Thieves fight back with counter-subterfuge, feeding into the strife and larceny. Meanwhile, affiliated Cyricists carry out “random” acts of madness and morbidity against the dissenters, even as caravans carrying the banner of Amn trundle out under Zhent command, delivering contraband and slaves to the unscrupulous all across the world, extending the tendrils of Zhentarim influence far and wide across Toril. It would even reduce the hackneyed-ness of Manshoon being “yet another vampire type villain” - far more inspired than vampires in some haunted fortress is the idea of vampires blending in and assimilating among cityfolk while feeding off them like they were cattle (think 3e Westgate, which IMHO was rather appealing) Looking for thoughts on this – feel free to respond! P.S. an unrelated question for the 4e conversant. The section on “Manshoon’s Tactics”, page 285, references a power called mind shatter which does not appear in Manshoon’s write up. Is this some nonspecific NPC power that can be referenced elsewhere or have I exposed shoddy editing?
#2 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Sep 09, 2008 12:18:10	I thought Manshoon in a dress was perfectly menacing.:P I do agree with your opinion on what was done with the Zhentarim, by the way.
#3 Aegeri Sep 09, 2008 12:22:22	I do see however a simple way to remedy all these flaws with 4e, which involves putting Manshoon and the Zhentarim back into cities. I’m talking about Amn. In its 4e iteration, Amn is the kind of merchantile, decadent place, that the original Zhentarim would have thrived in. With the Zhentarim forced eastwards, and the common theme of Cyricism, Amn is a ridiculously natural conceptual fit. Picture this – Manshoon pulling the strings of power in Athkatla and beyond, spinning his web of intrigue and subverting the Amnian elite to the clarion call of lucre and selfish interest, while his vampires infiltrate the nobles and merchant houses, tightening the Zhent grip and miring all in fluid treachery and mutual distrust. The displaced Shadow Thieves fight back with counter-subterfuge, feeding into the strife and larceny. Meanwhile, affiliated Cyricists carry out “random” acts of madness and morbidity against the dissenters, even as caravans carrying the banner of Amn trundle out under Zhent command, delivering contraband and slaves to the unscrupulous all across the world, extending the tendrils of Zhentarim influence far and wide across Toril. This sounds like a pretty good idea to me and makes perfect sense. I don't really have any need for them at the moment, but if I decided to stick them back in this would be a great solution. Plus it reminds me of Baldurs Gate II.
#4 aseran Sep 09, 2008 12:30:48	I'm for this, mainly. At least the part about them fitting in so very naturally to the new climate of Amn. I can buy the Zhentarim's diminishment as a point of story progression, though. As a DM, I feel like this presents me with a unique opportunity. They're diminished, but far from being wiped out, and making every imaginable effort to reconnect, rebuild, and if at all possible in the process, cause as much pain and suffering to the ones that put them there as they can. Holding them back somewhat is the fracture between the Cyricists and those still loyal to Bane, which I see as still very much a factor, but this just adds another layer to it. The Zhentarim are seething, vengeful, resourceful, ruthless, intelligent, determined, and mercilessly motivated. They can show up at any time, under the least convenient of circumstances (to our heroes). And this is true ten times over thanks to the fact that they've now got something to be all-of-the-above about. Nothing is more dangerous than villains with an active, evolving agenda, and it makes for very dynamic campaign material. I have an aversion to the 'monolothic' type of villainy, exemplified with those such as Netheril and Thay, where you have the Big Bads sitting comfy at the top of the chain already with nothing to strive for but the ever-ambiguous intent of 'world domination' or what have you--not that it can't be used well, it's just not as interesting to me, a sentiment that doesn't seem all that uncommon here.
#5 ikki Sep 10, 2008 15:35:42	sole survivor, huh? So the simbuls and halasters manshoons, and that vampire.. that all agreed to share the world between them is all retconned? Actually there were like 9 listed and known to be 40. Well, many left faerun for other worlds via spelljamming or planehopping :P
#6 Nolwelen Sep 10, 2008 19:12:36	@alexye: I felt the same way, they created some redundancy with making Manshoon another "Witch-King" or the "Backup Szass Tam". I especially like the term "machiavellian", it fits the original concept of the Zhentarim perfectly, since if they are anything then they are pragmatists. As bad as that is for a hero as good it is for a villain, because it causes them to be unpredictible. They would side with anyone - or at least would pretend to do it - to "win the advantage". And its not the advantage over the entire universe they want to maintain, the Red Wizards are the ones who single mindedly cling on to the fantasy of creating a worldspanning empire. No, the advantage the Zhents seek is the one over the other Zhents. Zhents dont believe open dictatorships could last long. They know if you openly assume control its just a matter of time until its contested. Thats why they stay behind the scene and secretly gather up all the strings they can get and at the same time do everything to prevent others from doing the same. To real Zhents their organisation is nothing more than another tool to further their own machinations, just as good as any other organisation they are involved in. What makes their fellow Zhents to nothing more than other players in the game for control. Thats why I have some difficulty swallowing the notion of having religions struggling for power within the Blacknetwork. Real Zhents are atheists by nature and not fanatical zealots. The only thing they believe in are their own capabilities and thats it. To me it seems unreasonable and therefore unlikely for the Zhentarim to oppose the Netherese openly. They would asses their capabilities and resources and decide to side with them or at least to stand out of their way and observe them from a distance. Somehow this theme got more and more contradicted. P.S.: Yes, I never liked Fzoul, I never took him serious as a Zhentarim, since he isnt one.