4E Multiclassing
We’ve introduced the Player’s Handbook and one of its classes—the warlord. But what of multiclassing? In today’s preview, we asked Mike Mearls to explain 4th Edition’s design goals for a multiclass system.
His response:
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“We'll get to you,” we'd tell it, “but first we have these shiny new classes to finish first. You used to push classes around and tell them how they had to be designed. Well, now the tables have been turned, you bullying jerk.”
This made multiclassing very sad. Even game mechanics hate being called jerks, but deep down it knew it was true. Back in the old days, it was a great tool for building what amounted to your own class. Magic-user/thieves, fighter/clerics, and even the rare but potentially awe-inspiring fighter/magic-user/thief walked the land, like chimeras wrought by strange rites involving Player's Handbooks, an overactive imagination, and a DNA splicer.
3rd Edition gave us a simpler, elegant, and intuitive solution that worked wonderfully… for characters who didn’t cast spells. The system also forced the core classes to delay abilities after 1st level to avoid cherry picking, where “clever” players simply took one level of as many classes as possible (or layered single levels on to a primary class) to reap the benefits of ungodly saving throws and bizarre but ultimately frightening combinations of class abilities that—like chocolate and pickle relish—were never meant to be combined by men and women of good taste.
The 4th Edition design had three primary goals for multiclassing:
Design the classes, make them cool, then force multiclassing to play nice with them.
Institute controls to prevent abusive combinations.
Institute controls to make every combination as playable as possible.
In 4th Edition, we strived to make each character option useful. Since D&D lacks a competitive or deck building element, it's silly to hide bad choices in the rules. Multiclassing had to obey this rule in order to justify its existence.
In the end, we came up with a system of feats that allow you to borrow abilities and powers from other classes. At 11th level, you can choose to forgo your paragon path in order to further specialize in a second class. This approach lacks the intuitive elegance of the 3E system, but it allows us to tone down or boost a class's multiclass options as needed. If everything works as planned, you have the flexibility to mix classes without making your character into a juggernaut or a cripple. Combos like fighter/wizard now work much better, while traditional choices like fighter/rogue still function just fine. Going forward, we'll introduce new feats for new classes, ensuring that all classes play well together.
So, that's multiclassing. Whether you missed playing a cleric/wizard from older editions or liked the flexibility of building a fighter/rogue in 3R, we've got you covered.
Multiclass feats allow you to dabble in the class features and powers of another class. You might be a fighter who dips his toe into wizardry, or a warlock who wants a smattering of rogue abilities. Each class has a class-specific multiclass feat that gives you access to features from that class.
Class-Specific Feats
There are two restrictions on your choice of a class-specific multiclass feat. First, you can’t take a multiclass feat for your own class. Second, once you take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific feat for a different class. You can dabble in a second class but not a third.
A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths. For example, a character who takes Initiate of the Faith counts as a cleric for the purpose of selecting feats that have cleric as a prerequisite. These feats can qualify you for other feats; for example, a warlock who takes Sneak of Shadows can use the rogue’s Sneak Attack class feature, which means that he meets the prerequisite for the Backstabber feat.
Power-Swap Feats
The Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power feats give you access to a power from the class for which you took a class-specific multiclass feat. That power replaces a power you would normally have from your primary class. When you take one of these power-swap feats, you give up a power of your choice from your primary class and replace it with a power of the same level or lower from the class you have multiclassed in.
Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision. Effectively, pretend you’re choosing the power-swap feat for the first time at the new level you’ve just gained. You gain back the power that you gave up originally from your primary class, lose the power that you chose from your second class, and make the trade again. You give up a different power from your primary class and replace it with a new power of the same level from your second class.
You can’t use power-swap feats to replace powers you gain from your paragon path or epic destiny. If you use retraining to replace a power-swap feat with another feat, you lose any power gained from the power-swap feat and regain a power of the same level from your primary class.
Multiclass Feat Table
Name Prerequisites Benefit
Initiate of the Faith Wis 13 Cleric: Religion skill, healing word 1/day
Student of the Sword Str 13 Fighter: skill training, +1 to attack and mark 1/encounter
Soldier of the Faith Str 13, Cha 13 Paladin: skill training, divine challenge 1/encounter
Warrior of the Wild Str 13 or Dex 13 Ranger: skill training, Hunter's Quarry 1/encounter
Sneak of Shadows Dex 13 Rogue: Thievery skill, Sneak Attack 1/encounter
Pact Initiate Cha 13 Warlock: skill training, pact at-will 1/encounter
Student of Battle Str 13 Warlord: skill training, inspiring word 1/day
Arcane Initiate Int 13 Wizard: Arcana skill, wizard power 1/encounter
Novice Power Any class-specific multiclass Swap one encounter power with one of multiclass feats, 4th level
Acolyte Power Any class-specific multiclass Swap one utility power with one of multiclass feats, 8th level
Adept Power Any class-specific multiclass Swap one daily power with one of multiclass feats, 10th level
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Be sure to return Friday for a look at racial benefits and a new monster from the Monster Manual!
His response:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“We'll get to you,” we'd tell it, “but first we have these shiny new classes to finish first. You used to push classes around and tell them how they had to be designed. Well, now the tables have been turned, you bullying jerk.”
This made multiclassing very sad. Even game mechanics hate being called jerks, but deep down it knew it was true. Back in the old days, it was a great tool for building what amounted to your own class. Magic-user/thieves, fighter/clerics, and even the rare but potentially awe-inspiring fighter/magic-user/thief walked the land, like chimeras wrought by strange rites involving Player's Handbooks, an overactive imagination, and a DNA splicer.
3rd Edition gave us a simpler, elegant, and intuitive solution that worked wonderfully… for characters who didn’t cast spells. The system also forced the core classes to delay abilities after 1st level to avoid cherry picking, where “clever” players simply took one level of as many classes as possible (or layered single levels on to a primary class) to reap the benefits of ungodly saving throws and bizarre but ultimately frightening combinations of class abilities that—like chocolate and pickle relish—were never meant to be combined by men and women of good taste.
The 4th Edition design had three primary goals for multiclassing:
Design the classes, make them cool, then force multiclassing to play nice with them.
Institute controls to prevent abusive combinations.
Institute controls to make every combination as playable as possible.
In 4th Edition, we strived to make each character option useful. Since D&D lacks a competitive or deck building element, it's silly to hide bad choices in the rules. Multiclassing had to obey this rule in order to justify its existence.
In the end, we came up with a system of feats that allow you to borrow abilities and powers from other classes. At 11th level, you can choose to forgo your paragon path in order to further specialize in a second class. This approach lacks the intuitive elegance of the 3E system, but it allows us to tone down or boost a class's multiclass options as needed. If everything works as planned, you have the flexibility to mix classes without making your character into a juggernaut or a cripple. Combos like fighter/wizard now work much better, while traditional choices like fighter/rogue still function just fine. Going forward, we'll introduce new feats for new classes, ensuring that all classes play well together.
So, that's multiclassing. Whether you missed playing a cleric/wizard from older editions or liked the flexibility of building a fighter/rogue in 3R, we've got you covered.
Multiclass feats allow you to dabble in the class features and powers of another class. You might be a fighter who dips his toe into wizardry, or a warlock who wants a smattering of rogue abilities. Each class has a class-specific multiclass feat that gives you access to features from that class.
Class-Specific Feats
There are two restrictions on your choice of a class-specific multiclass feat. First, you can’t take a multiclass feat for your own class. Second, once you take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific feat for a different class. You can dabble in a second class but not a third.
A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths. For example, a character who takes Initiate of the Faith counts as a cleric for the purpose of selecting feats that have cleric as a prerequisite. These feats can qualify you for other feats; for example, a warlock who takes Sneak of Shadows can use the rogue’s Sneak Attack class feature, which means that he meets the prerequisite for the Backstabber feat.
Power-Swap Feats
The Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power feats give you access to a power from the class for which you took a class-specific multiclass feat. That power replaces a power you would normally have from your primary class. When you take one of these power-swap feats, you give up a power of your choice from your primary class and replace it with a power of the same level or lower from the class you have multiclassed in.
Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision. Effectively, pretend you’re choosing the power-swap feat for the first time at the new level you’ve just gained. You gain back the power that you gave up originally from your primary class, lose the power that you chose from your second class, and make the trade again. You give up a different power from your primary class and replace it with a new power of the same level from your second class.
You can’t use power-swap feats to replace powers you gain from your paragon path or epic destiny. If you use retraining to replace a power-swap feat with another feat, you lose any power gained from the power-swap feat and regain a power of the same level from your primary class.
Multiclass Feat Table
Name Prerequisites Benefit
Initiate of the Faith Wis 13 Cleric: Religion skill, healing word 1/day
Student of the Sword Str 13 Fighter: skill training, +1 to attack and mark 1/encounter
Soldier of the Faith Str 13, Cha 13 Paladin: skill training, divine challenge 1/encounter
Warrior of the Wild Str 13 or Dex 13 Ranger: skill training, Hunter's Quarry 1/encounter
Sneak of Shadows Dex 13 Rogue: Thievery skill, Sneak Attack 1/encounter
Pact Initiate Cha 13 Warlock: skill training, pact at-will 1/encounter
Student of Battle Str 13 Warlord: skill training, inspiring word 1/day
Arcane Initiate Int 13 Wizard: Arcana skill, wizard power 1/encounter
Novice Power Any class-specific multiclass Swap one encounter power with one of multiclass feats, 4th level
Acolyte Power Any class-specific multiclass Swap one utility power with one of multiclass feats, 8th level
Adept Power Any class-specific multiclass Swap one daily power with one of multiclass feats, 10th level
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Be sure to return Friday for a look at racial benefits and a new monster from the Monster Manual!
I figured this needed its own thread.
Of course it did! We've been expecting this for years... I mean, months... I mean, weeks... whatever. WE'VE BEEN EXPECTING HOW THE
DOES MULTICLASSING WORK!Now, jokes apart. I will not be telling the truth if I say that it does satisfy me. The fact is that it's quite different at what I've suspected and I don't know if that will work fine. If it does indeed work, then the method is quite simple and easy to use. Let's hope 4th Edition is not so feat-dependent as 3rd, with all those extra feats at odd levels, or even levels... eehh, every two levels! (whatever!), because spending four feats in multiclassing is not cheap using 3rd Edition rules.
“We'll get to you,” we'd tell it, “but first we have these shiny new classes to finish first. You used to push classes around and tell them how they had to be designed. Well, now the tables have been turned, you bullying jerk.”
Uh, I don't get it?
But now, I shall read through the actual article.
3rd Edition gave us a simpler, elegant, and intuitive solution that worked wonderfully… for characters who didn’t cast spells.
Heh, that's kinda true.
Read through the article--as usual I'd be willing to try these rules out. From what I understand, PCs can no longer dabble in more than one class? I have mixed feelings about that. When almost every character you read about has four, five, or even six classes, and single-classed characters are pretty rare, I found that a bit silly (being only one class is a liability?). On the other hand, if someone really wants to have, say, three classes, what's wrong with that? The article itself seemed to admit that the 2E fighter/mage/thief was cool!
personnally I think there should be no multiclassing, you have skills, feats, special abilities, extraordinary abilities, class abilities etc. all toghether, and when a PC picks some of them then the actual ''class'' is relatively determined.
Let's take a look at what a 10th-level Fighter can have, though.
- He'll have six Feats to burn, so he can go Arcane Initiate, Novice Power, Acolyte Power, Adept Power, and probably Ritual Casting, too. That'd eat up five of his Feats, but he'd still have one left.
- By tenth level, he'll have two At-Will Powers, three Encounter Powers, three Daily Powers, and three Utility Powers. Arcane Initiate will give him another Encounter Power (A Wizard At-Will Power reduced to an Encounter Power. Scorching Burst is a good candidate, as it'll give you an area effect useful for Combat Challenge), so pretty much exactly 1/3rd of his power will derive from Wizard magic.
- In addition, the Fighter can make his most powerful abilities Wizard spells. The Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power Feats allow you to trade in powers every time you level. So by the time you hit 10th-level, if you so choose, you'll be able to have a 7th-Level Encounter Spell, 9th-Level Daily Spell, and 10th-Level Utility Spell. A Level 30 Fighter, for example, will be able to throw down a Level 27 Encounter Spell if he so chooses.
- He'll also be able to cast additional magic through his Ritual Magic Feat. The Arcana Trained Skill that he picked up thanks to the Arcane Initiate Feat will also help with that. So he'll have even more magic available to him.
- Apparently there's either a Feat or a Paragon Path that allows one to convert their weapon into an implement, so the Fighter will be able to channel his magic through his weapon, and any plus that the weapon holds will improve his spellcasting (so a +3 Longsword will give you +3 to hit with your spells).
- No more armor spell failure, so you can wear full plate and still cast spells without issue.
- Fighters apparently have access to an ability which allows you to add your Dex or Int bonus to your AC, despite the fact that heavy armor usually disallows that. So an Eladrin Fighter with Int 20 will be able to add +5 to his AC with that ability.
- Some spells are just plain sick, especially when it's a Fighter casting them. Can you imagine a Fighter with his high AC casting Mirror Image? Or Prismatic Burst? Throwing down a Wall of Ice or casting Fly?
All around, that looks pretty nice for a Bladesinger type, or Fighter/Wizard in general. One can only imagine how awesome a Swordmage/Wizard multiclass would be, though. That's a combo that I'm really itching to try out.
Being able to be a rog and have mage hand at will or prestidigitation and some spells sounds good to me. Plus Arcane Trickster won't blow since it will be a Paragon Class. No more missed spell levels (I hope).
Sounds very lame and bland. Fighter/Wizards aren't going to be played much after 4ed hits, and that's the only way of being a Bladesinger.
Just out of curiosity, why do you think that?
All around, that looks pretty nice for a Bladesinger type, or Fighter/Wizard in general.
Thanks for elaborating on that for those of us who aren't too rules-savvy.
I've always liked the fighter/mage combo, and the 3E version kinda made me reluctant to use it. The 4E version might well be an improvement.
Just out of curiosity, why do you think that?
Because I know how to make a Bladesinger in 3rd edition that has access to the whole Wizard list. These feat sound more like I'm a Fighter with some SLAs that emulate magic instead of a true Fighter/Wizard. Thank's but no. For those kinds of characters I rather stay with 3rd edition or nWoD.
I've always liked the fighter/mage combo, and the 3E version kinda made me reluctant to use it. The 4E version might well be an improvement.
That's why the Elven Netbook has the best Bladesinger ever made. I've tested it and it rocks. Just barely in epic levels and you are as good as a fighter or wizard of the same level.
Because I know how to make a Bladesinger in 3rd edition that has access to the whole Wizard list. These feat sound more like I'm a Fighter with some SLAs that emulate magic instead of a true Fighter/Wizard. Thank's but no. For those kinds of characters I rather stay with 3rd edition or nWoD.
That's why the Elven Netbook has the best Bladesinger ever made. I've tested it and it rocks. Just barely in epic levels and you are as good as a fighter or wizard of the same level.
You may be right. I'd look over that PrC, myself, but not being rules-savvy I wouldn't be able to discern what makes it so effective (or not) just by reading through it.
Here it is: http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16#p209
I thought about that myself, back when 3e first came out - you got class abilities, and Feats. Between the two, you get something at just about every level, so why not just call them all feats, and you can pick what you want (like, if you don't want a horse for your paladin)? They did something like that when they re-worked the ranger for 3.5 - he got a chose of a 'path' to follow (Archer or Two-Weapon). I see 4e as a natural evolution of that.
Taken to the next step, I could see 5e being completely 'classless'. I've played in a few systems like that, and if done right, its awesome. The customizability of your character goes through the roof, and allows you to build exactly what you want.
At each level, you get Char. Points, and you 'buy' what you want - Feats (class abilities), Skills, HP, and even Attribute points. Its a lot less to keep track of, really - instead of 3e's methodology, with Feats every three, and Attributes every Four, you get to make choices. If you want to up your St twice in a row, it may be possible, but then you would have to give up advancement in just about everything else.
With an open system like that, you would also use character flaws and backgrounds in your initial build. In such a system, Multi-classing becomes irrelevent. All your abilities become Feats, and pre-requisites for Feats easily take the place of 4e's 'paths'.
What would be even cooler is that you don't choose a Class, you choose a Race, and level in THAT - then all the other stuff in the game - the stuff you buy with Character Points - have their costs 'offset' by the race you chose. Ergo, 'Woodland' Feats would be slightly cheaper for an Elf (and perhaps magical spells, which would also become like skills - you just buy them), and 'Subterranean' and 'Crafting' stuff could be cheaper for a Dwarf to buy. Humans, of course, don't get any modifications to the prices - they are still good at everything (other races will have to pay more for certain things as well).
I think I'll get a jump on the competition, and start working on 5e now. :P
Because I know how to make a Bladesinger in 3rd edition that has access to the whole Wizard list. These feat sound more like I'm a Fighter with some SLAs that emulate magic instead of a true Fighter/Wizard.
I think you don't like it because you are thinking in a Fighter character with Wizard training... Have you thought on how will a Wizard character with Fighter training be? I think BAB is no more, so more or less every class gets more or less the same "base attack" bonus, you just need a high STR score... I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I don't know if you've taken all the possibilities into account.
I think you don't like it because you are thinking in a Fighter character with Wizard training... Have you thought on how will a Wizard character with Fighter training be? I think BAB is no more, so more or less every class gets more or less the same "base attack" bonus, you just need a high STR score... I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I don't know if you've taken all the possibilities into account.
Good point. Hmm. Assuming a few things. Namely 1) 32 point buy using the new 4E point buy scheme (14's, 15's, 16's, and 17's cost one point more, while 18 costs two point more), 2) one stat increase at 4th and 8th level (although Saga lets you boost two stats, not just one, at 4th and 8th), and 3) that Eladrin get a bonus Feat from their Racial Feat list (the DDXP character had one extra Feat. It's assumed that rather then being a generic bonus feat, that it's chosen from a smaller list. I'm guessing Eladrin Racial Feats)...
ELADRIN WIZARD 10
STR 14 (+2/+7), CON 12 (+1/+6), DEX 11 (+0/+5), INT 22 (+6/+11), WIS 10 (+0/+5), CHA 8 (-1/+4)
Racial Features: Eladrin Will, Fey Origin, Trance, Low-Light Vision
Class Features: Arcane Implement Mastery, Cantrips, Ritual Casting, Spellbook
HP: 58/29, Healing Surges: 7
AC: 24, Fort Defense: 17, Ref Defense: 21, Will Defense: 18
Skills: Arcana +16, Athletics +12, History +18, Nature +16
Feats: Eladrin Soldier (Bonus Racial Feat), Student of the Sword, Novice Power, Acolyte Power, Adept Power, Armor Proficiency (Hide Armor), Defensive Mobility
Basic Attack Name: Longsword
Attack Bonus: +10
Damage: 1d8+4
Range/Properties: Versatile (+1 damage when two-handed)
POWERS
At-Will Powers: Two Wizard At-Will Powers
Encounter Powers: Fey Step (Eladrin Racial Power), one 7th-level power, one 3rd-level power, one 1st-level power (two Wizard Spells and one Fighter Exploit)
Daily Powers: One 9th-level power, one 5th-level power, one 1st-level power (two Wizard Spells and one Fighter Exploit)
Utility Powers: One 10th-level power, one 6th-level power, one 2nd-level power (two Wizard Spells and one Fighter Exploit)
That gives you the full range of Wizard spell casting (Spells, Cantrips, and Rituals), sans three spells, which are substituted for three Fighter Exploits, and you can Mark in addition to that (It doesn't explain what that means, but the Paladin multiclass Feat gives you Divine Challenge, so I imagine you get Combat Challenge). The Eladrin Wizard is pretty good with his longsword, too. Proficiency with it gives him +2 to hit, he gets another +2 to hit and +2 to damage from his Strength, a +1 bonus to hit from the Student of the Sword Feat, and the Eladrin Soldier Feat gives him another +2 to hit and +2 to damage with it (and with spears, too. Wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that Eladrin become automatically proficient with spears, too. Same stats as a longsword, except it has Range 10/20). And to top it off, his AC's pretty good, too. By way of comparison, Kathra, the Dwarf Fighter, would have the exact same AC at that level.
ELADRIN WIZARD 10
Good points, I don't know exactly what's the meaning of these new skills and abilities (How are you making them? playtests? pre-releases? I have access to none of them). What I can point is that, effectively as in SAGA, you boost two abilities every 4 levels.
Let's not forget the swordmage... Not only a solo class character, but the combination of fighter, wizard, and swordmage, being one the base class and another one the one with the appropriate class training feat.
An let's not also forget the possibility that an "Eldritch Knight" paragon path may exist.
Good points, I don't know exactly what's the meaning of these new skills and abilities (How are you making them? playtests? pre-releases? I have access to none of them).
Go here. Someone cobbled together most of the collected information known about 4E and put it together in that.
What I can point is that, effectively as in SAGA, you boost two abilities every 4 levels.
That's probable, but I didn't want to assume without any other evidence to support that, so I made the above without that. Although if you do boost two stats, then the Eladrin Wizard could've boosted his Strength twice as well, and so he'd get +11 to his with his longsword and do 1d8+5 damage.
Let's not forget the swordmage... Not only a solo class character, but the combination of fighter, wizard, and swordmage, being one the base class and another one the one with the appropriate class training feat.
I'm really looking forward to the Swordmage, myself. Either play it as a straight class, or maybe multiclass into Wizard. We'll see.
It's like playing a WoW mage, totally lame that short selection. I play Generalist Wizards because I love to have dozens of different spells to choose and use (that's why I also use the Spellpoint alternative rules in Unearthed Arcana). I preffer to have 100 options and one being the right than 3 options and all being more or less the same. It takes away one of the most fun aspects of playing a Wizard: knowing what's the best option for different challenges. If the 4ed Wizard doesn't has that anymore then 4ed is plain **** and anybody would be able to play a Wizard without having to think (only the worthy should play a Wizard, those who can't deal with the complexities of a Wizard character shouldn't even think of playing one and I also believe that fighters should always be below any spellcaster because they only swing pieces of metal, while spellcasters change reality).
I also believe that fighters should always be below any spellcaster because they only swing pieces of metal, while spellcasters change reality
Tell that to Conan. Or better yet, all the wizards he killed.
If you want that, then you're in the wrong game, because D&D is supposed to be a game about teamwork. Every class should have something to contribute to the success of the party at all levels. If the Wizard is doing all the heavy lifting, then what's the point of having any other classes to begin with? Having a character level up just so they can become the sidekick of the Wizard character is crap game design, and personally I'm glad to see the end of that. If you want to play a game where Wizards dominate, there're plenty of them out there, so it's not as if you're bereft of choices. But if you're going to have a game like D&D, with characters like Fighters, Rogues, and Monks alongside Wizards, then they all should play an equal role.
Seriously, there is nothing a Fighter can do (even those from ToB) to equal the amount of enemies affected and damage dealt a Full Spellcaster can. Even a Fighter surrounded by enemies who does a Whirlwind attack can't affect the dozens any AoE spell does. And that's perfect because Fighters have something Wizards don't, inifite attacks. Wizards don't have infinite Spells and any DM with a bit of brain can challenge the Wizard and make the fighter shine even in high-to-epic levels. He simply needs to force Spellcasters to use all their magic and do encounters when spellcasters are exausted, he can also harass the party when they rest so spellcasters don't get the necessary time to recover their magic and it's those moments when everybody in the party get to rely on the Fighter.
And making Magic Missile just a "Bow" in 4ed is killing what a Wizard is meant to be (magic is an application of will and if I decide that the Magic Missle I cast hits the target, then it hits the target, and you shouldn't be forced to make an attack so the dumb fighters don't feel lesser because their attacks fail).
They didn't have to nerf Spellcasters again, they should've simply powered the fighters a bit (because there are other non-spellcasters who are usefull all the time)
And Conan can wash my clothes, he doesn't stands a chance of harming me with an Ironguard Spell (for metal weapons) and Gaseous Form.
I don't deny the usefulness of fighters, as sentient meat shields to stop the enemies of wizards from harming them
Good thing you're being sarcastic, cause that sure sounds like a self-centered view to take. One in which the other players exist just to enhance your own enjoyment of the game.
Seriously, there is nothing a Fighter can do (even those from ToB) to equal the amount of enemies affected and damage dealt a Full Spellcaster can. Even a Fighter surrounded by enemies who does a Whirlwind attack can't affect the dozens any AoE spell does.
And that's not really changing, as that's pretty much the definition of the 'Controller' role. Just read up on some of the spells released. Frostburn and Prismatic Spray, for instance, affect a 25' x 25' area, and can be cast from 50 feet and 100 feet away respectively. Wall of Ice covers 60 feet of ground, and any enemies adjacent to the spaces that the wall occupies take damage. Right from 1st level, Wizards get Scorching Burst, which affects a 15' x 15' area.
And that's perfect because Fighters have something Wizards don't, inifite attacks. Wizards don't have infinite Spells and any DM with a bit of brain can challenge the Wizard and make the fighter shine even in high-to-epic levels. He simply needs to force Spellcasters to use all their magic and do encounters when spellcasters are exausted, he can also harass the party when they rest so spellcasters don't get the necessary time to recover their magic.
So in other words, force Fighters into the sidekick role until the Wizard runs out of spells? Nevermind that that'd get old pretty quickly, having the PC's constantly run gauntlets of monsters just to deplete the Wizards memorized spells. So exactly how many fights does the Fighter have to sit through before he finally gets a chance to shine?
That's hardly the definition of balance, though. One class shouldn't have to wait til the other class is utterly depleted before it gets a chance to shine. And people who level their Fighters to Epic levels deserve more then to have their Fighters reduced to being the Wizards guard dog. If the only way for the classes to function is for one of them to be nearly useless at different times, then there's something fundamentally wrong with the game. And that's something which I'm glad to see 4E fixing.
And making Magic Missile just a "Bow" in 4ed is killing what a Wizard is meant to be (magic is an application of will and if I decide that the Magic Missle I cast hits the target, then it hits the target, and you shouldn't be forced to make an attack so the dumb fighters don't feel lesser because their attacks fail).
"Shouldn't be forced to make an attack"? Wow. That statement just reeks of munchkinism. Nevermind that that idea flies in the face of a great deal of fiction involving magic and spellcasting. Magic attacks don't automatically hit in the vast majority of fiction which involves magic. So why should that be the case in D&D? You should auto-hit because you "will" it? Wow. If things should happen just because your character "wills it" then why not just ask the DM for an "I Win" button and be done with it? Everytime you push the button you automatically win. Done.
As for Magic Missile, so it's not autohit, anymore. So what? Is the idea of someone dodging out of the way of a Magic Missile so inconceivable? Besides, having to roll to hit seems a pretty equitable trade-off for gaining the ability to cast Magic Missile all day. I'd say that only adds to the idea of what a Wizard ought to be (my idea of what a Wizard ought to be certainly isn't represented by the 1st-level Wizard hefting a crossbow for most of the day because his one or two spells ran out).
As to the will, any area spell falls exactly where the spellcaster wants it to fall, that's why attacked beings do the reflex save. With 4ed is the Wizard doing the "aiming" (which again is a matter of will, not of arm, that's why an armless Wizard with Still Spell and Eschew Materials can cast them and land them wherever he wants) with the attack roll and the targets just stand there without doing anything to avoid it. Doesn't sounds like a believable picture to me.
And just so you know, from all WoD games the most I like is Mage, from the mechanical point of view because the Magic system doesn't limits me like the Vampiric Disciplines or the Werewolf Powers. The new Wizard of 4ed sounds more like a Tremere with Taumaturgy than a true willworker.
Magic Missile is an automaticaly directed spell, it acts like a guided missile instead of a WW2 torpedo that went in a straight line, and the speed of the missile is more than any creature. If you somehow manage to get cover the Magic Missile simply finds the best spot to hit you nevertheless. Give me five Magic Missiles that always hit instead of infinite that most of the time don't.
Guided missiles can and do miss. And personally, I prefer the Magic Missiles which I can always cast. I always hated playing low-level Wizards. I felt more like a peasant crossbowman who dabbled a little in magic rather then an actual Wizard. Now I'll be able to cast Cantrips all day without burning up spell slots, along with spells like Magic Missile, Ray of Frost, and Scorching Burst. And of course, there's still spell memorization from spellbooks as far as the Daily Spells are concerned. And I'm REALLY looking forward to Ritual Magic.
With 4ed is the Wizard doing the "aiming" (which again is a matter of will, not of arm, that's why an armless Wizard with Still Spell and Eschew Materials can cast them and land them wherever he wants) with the attack roll and the targets just stand there without doing anything to avoid it. Doesn't sounds like a believable picture to me.
Magic Missile - Intelligence Vs. Reflex
Scorching Burst - Intelligence Vs. Reflex
Frostburn - Intelligence Vs. Fortitude
Mesmeric Hold - Intelligence Vs. Will
Prismatic Burst - Intelligence Vs. Will
Thunderlance - Wisdom Vs. Reflex
Bigby's Grasping Hands - Intelligence Vs. Reflex
Blast of Cold - Intelligence Vs. Reflex
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere - Intelligence Vs. Reflex
Prismatic Beams - Intelligence Vs. Fort, Ref, Will
Doesn't look like he's doing any "aiming", if he's using his Intelligence for it. Looks more like a case of flexing his brains rather then his arm, using his mind to shape the magic to do as he wants. Just because you can do that, though, doesn't mean that your ability to shape magic is limitless, or that it should automatically succeed. Not to mention that a lot of that is against Reflex, so yes, the targets are doing something to avoid it. They're actively trying to get out of the way most of the time.
And just so you know, from all WoD games the most I like is Mage, from the mechanical point of view because the Magic system doesn't limits me like the Vampiric Disciplines or the Werewolf Powers. The new Wizard of 4ed sounds more like a Tremere with Taumaturgy than a true willworker.
Well, then, sounds like there does exist a game which suits your tastes perfectly. But when you have an RPG which includes more then just Wizards, then don't be surprised when anyone playing the "Not-Wizard" class is on an equal plane.
If things should happen just because your character "wills it" then why not just ask the DM for an "I Win" button and be done with it? Everytime you push the button you automatically win. Done.
YES! That is one feature that I dearly hope makes it into the rules.;)
YES! That is one feature that I dearly hope makes it into the rules.;)
Tell you what. If I ever run a game on DDI, and if you play in it, then I'll GIVE you your 'I Win' button. ;)
Magic Missile - Intelligence Vs. Reflex
Scorching Burst - Intelligence Vs. Reflex
Frostburn - Intelligence Vs. Fortitude
Mesmeric Hold - Intelligence Vs. Will
Prismatic Burst - Intelligence Vs. Will
Thunderlance - Wisdom Vs. Reflex
Bigby's Grasping Hands - Intelligence Vs. Reflex
Blast of Cold - Intelligence Vs. Reflex
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere - Intelligence Vs. Reflex
Prismatic Beams - Intelligence Vs. Fort, Ref, Will
Emphasis mine. Is there any particular reason why that spell is wisdom based, while the others aren't? That just seems odd to me.
Tell you what. If I ever run a game on DDI, and if you play in it, then I'll GIVE you your 'I Win' button. ;)
Oh boy!
If you set up such a game...be sure to let me know!;) :D
Doesn't look like he's doing any "aiming", if he's using his Intelligence for it. Looks more like a case of flexing his brains rather then his arm, using his mind to shape the magic to do as he wants. Just because you can do that, though, doesn't mean that your ability to shape magic is limitless, or that it should automatically succeed.
It should always hit, because magic stems from ideas, and when a Wizard casts a spell he is retrieveing arcane energies and molding them with the ideas in his mind, and if the idea includes that the spell automatically hits then it does, ideas are faster than light. And any experienced mage in distant casting can blast a place that is over 300000 kilometers from where he is.
Well, then, sounds like there does exist a game which suits your tastes perfectly.
Not for when I want to play High Fantasy, WoD usually gets to slow and political for my tastes.
But when you have an RPG which includes more then just Wizards, then don't be surprised when anyone playing the "Not-Wizard" class is on an equal plane.
Which sound a lot like forced comunism just made because some players have inferiority complexes. Mind over Matter, that's why Spellcasters should always be above those who rely to much on the material. I find Rogues to be more respectable than plain fighters because rogues have lots of skills and are usefull outside combat, Rangers and Paladins too, pure Fighters and Barbarians are the only useless class outside combat, it would've been easier to just give fighters more options.
This is my chart of class worthiness:
Full Spellcasters (Sorcerers at the bottom, Clerics, Druids and Wizards at the top)
Partial Spellcasters/Skilled classes (Rangers, Paladins, Monks, Rogues)
Pure combatants (Fighters above and Barbarians below)
This chapter of Erfworld actually shows my point: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0105.html
Emphasis mine. Is there any particular reason why that spell is wisdom based, while the others aren't? That just seems odd to me.
No idea. Here's the spell. If you want to figure it out, be my guest.
THUNDERLANCE Wizard Attack 13
A thunderous pulse of concussive energy rolls from your hand, bowling over your enemies.
Encounter * Arcane, Implement, Thunder
Standard Action Close blast 5
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: 4d6 + Intelligence modifier thunder damage, and you push the target 4 squares.
No idea. Here's the spell. If you want to figure it out, be my guest.
THUNDERLANCE Wizard Attack 13
A thunderous pulse of concussive energy rolls from your hand, bowling over your enemies.
Encounter * Arcane, Implement, Thunder
Standard Action Close blast 5
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: 4d6 + Intelligence modifier thunder damage, and you push the target 4 squares.
That's IT?
LAAAAAAAAAME. It's too weak. And WotC has discarded any spell that doesn't deals damage. For me it's a complete lack of respect for any player who loves Wizards. The class has been totally nerfed and dumbed down to the level of stupidity elevated at the cubic potence.
No idea. Here's the spell. If you want to figure it out, be my guest.
THUNDERLANCE Wizard Attack 13
A thunderous pulse of concussive energy rolls from your hand, bowling over your enemies.
Encounter * Arcane, Implement, Thunder
Standard Action Close blast 5
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: 4d6 + Intelligence modifier thunder damage, and you push the target 4 squares.
If you can't figure it out, I don't think I could, either.
Maybe it's just an error?Alediran, you're entitled to your opinions about some classes just being better than others, but I have to differ about fighters generally being "stupid". I've played a few pure fighters in my time, gave them decent mental stats, and had fun with them.
It should always hit, because magic stems from ideas, and when a Wizard casts a spell he is retrieveing arcane energies and molding them with the ideas in his mind, and if the idea includes that the spell automatically hits then it does, ideas are faster than light. And any experienced mage in distant casting can blast a place that is over 300000 kilometers from where he is.
Then why is that some spells do miss? Why can't the "idea" of Acid Touch, for instance, include an automatic hit?
And wow, if I wasn't convinced of it, before, then I am now. You're an unabashed munchkin. Geeze, You remind me of a 12-year-old who demands that his Ninja should always win because Ninjas are just to cool to ever lose.
Which sound a lot like forced comunism just made because some players have inferiority complexes.
Communism? So Sorry is communistic because it forces every player to have four pieces? Risk is Communistic because each side has 40 armies, exactly? Chess is communistic because both sides have the same amount of pieces? Guess even Monopoly is communist, too, as everyone starts off with $1500. Why can't some start off with more money? And unlike competitive games, this is supposed to be a cooperative game. Everyone is supposed to have fun. Not just you. And from what I can see, you're utterly selfish in that you want to derive your enjoyment from the game at the expense of the enjoyment of others. You positively bristle at the thought of a level playing field. So what does it say about you when you can't have fun unless your character is infinitely more powerful then everyone else?
Mind over Matter, that's why Spellcasters should always be above those who rely to much on the material.
If that's the case, then how did Conan ever win a fight against any wizard? Why did Merlin need the Knights of the Round Table? Why did Gandalf even bother with the whole Fellowship of the Ring when he could've just "willed" the One Ring into Mt. Doom? Hell, how did Hansel and Gretel ever get one over on that witch? Wizards aren't the end-all and the be-all. It's the rare piece of fiction where that's the case. D&D was never meant to be that kind of fiction, nor should it be.
That's IT?
LAAAAAAAAAME. It's too weak. And WotC has discarded any spell that doesn't deals damage. For me it's a complete lack of respect for any player who loves Wizards. The class has been totally nerfed and dumbed down to the level of stupidity elevated at the cubic potence.
For a guy who goes on about how "only the worthy should play a wizard" (and implying that you yourself are intelligent enough to be considered one of "the worthy") you sure seem to revel in willful ignorance, and seem to have no problems making statements of fact without not actually knowing what the facts are. WotC hasn't, in fact, discarded every spell that doesn't deal damage. They've just been reclassified as Rituals. You can learn as many of them as you want (just as you can add as many spells as you like to your spellbook), and they're intended to be cast out of combat.
Then why is that some spells do miss? Why can't the "idea" of Acid Touch, for instance, include an automatic hit?
Because there are spells in the shape of rays or that need the touch of the caster to succeede. Those do need some aim (any Wizard who fails a touch spell should hang their robes though, I've never failed a single touch attack spell in my life, except when natural 1's appeared)
And wow, if I wasn't convinced of it, before, then I am now. You're an unabashed munchkin. Geeze, You remind me of a 12-year-old who demands that his Ninja should always win because Ninjas are just to cool to ever lose.
No, I'm not a munchkin, I simply believe there are some who deserve to be above and some below because those below don't make the necessary effort to rise (and I mean it as honest effort, not by doing something wrong), being good with a sword doesn't requires as much effort as casting a cantrip. That's why Wizards have bigger starting age than fighters.
And that kind of starting is the exception rather than the rule. Just by having to roll 4d6 dice six times somebody is going to be better than others. Just like in life. Point buy was created after that system and I find it very bland because it doesn't reflects the reality of life, that nobody is equal to others. Just by being born in a rich family gives you opportunities you don't have if you were born in a poor one.
And unlike competitive games, this is supposed to be a cooperative game. Everyone is supposed to have fun. Not just you.
Everybody does if they accept the place each character has. Except for the lest experienced player of my group, everybody has levels in spellcasting classes that reflect the abilities their characters should have. I play a Wizard/Elemental Savant, my GF plays a Rogue/Bard, the rest play Sorcerer/Fighter/Knight of the Weave, a Druid, a Cleric and the only non-spellcasting character of my group is a Fighter/Champion of Corellon Larethian that can easely make over 50 points of damage in a confirmed critical with his Adamantine Longsword (and they say Fighters are useless, any experienced D&D player can make a Fighter as good and fun as any other class, you just need the right attitude). Each character of my group has a lot of fun with their characters, meaning that I'm doing right in my job as DM (last session I gave The Warblade to the Fighter and my Wizard made the ritual to make the transformation to a half-elemental).
I DM a more powerfull game than most, magic in my game is very common, magic items up to +4 can be bought in the big cities and that actually helps the non-spellcasting classes more than the spellcasting.
And from what I can see, you're utterly selfish in that you want to derive your enjoyment from the game at the expense of the enjoyment of others. You positively bristle at the thought of a level playing field. So what does it say about you when you can't have fun unless your character is infinitely more powerful then everyone else?
I'm the DM of my group, so I have fun all the time just by delivering the story we all play. With the other DM of my group the game is more of a chess match where you need to outsmart what he does and I have a LOT of fun with that (I play a Sun Elf Bladesinger with him). I can have fun with a Fighter just as much as with a Wizard because I already accept what I can and what I can't do and then work to change the can't to can (it's easy to do since I play with elves and I have lots of options: Bladesinger, Champion of Corellon Larethian, Arcane Archer, any PrC from the Elven Netbook).
If that's the case, then how did Conan ever win a fight against any wizard?
Because Conan had infinite plot armor and those Wizards were very lame, the most powerfull thing I've seen them do is a form of telekinesis. No Conan Wizard ever summoned Meteroites from the sky or made disembodied hands to crush him.
Why did Merlin need the Knights of the Round Table?
Because he is wise to know that you need to train a group of people to do dirty work while you explore the mysteries of the world. :D. If I was a Wizard of Merlin's power I would never loose time chasing a group of thieves when a group of knights can be as effective as me. And as Elminster wisely knows people shouldn't become so dependant of you because the day you aren't available the world goes kaboom.
Why did Gandalf even bother with the whole Fellowship of the Ring when he could've just "willed" the One Ring into Mt. Doom?
Because he was taking a huge risk by just touching the ring, only a Hobbit could hold it without becoming corrupted at the moment (they were created that way)
Hell, how did Hansel and Gretel ever get one over on that witch?
Because she wasn't a true Witch, she was more of an medieval alchemist. No D&D Wizard would be killed by so lame method. Just a quick protection from energy spell and oven's fire doesn't harms you.
Wizards aren't the end-all and the be-all. It's the rare piece of fiction where that's the case. D&D was never meant to be that kind of fiction, nor should it be.
The path of the Wizard is the path to godhood, the best wizards have become gods and trascended their flaws. There is no fighter with the self-power to do that. I find Arcane Magic superior to Divine Magic just by the fact that Arcane Magic is a personal power, achieved by the Wizard himself, not granted by somebody else who could deny you access to them.
For a guy who goes on about how "only the worthy should play a wizard" (and implying that you yourself are intelligent enough to be considered one of "the worthy") you sure seem to revel in willful ignorance, and seem to have no problems making statements of fact without not actually knowing what the facts are. WotC hasn't, in fact, discarded every spell that doesn't deal damage. They've just been reclassified as Rituals. You can learn as many of them as you want (just as you can add as many spells as you like to your spellbook), and they're intended to be cast out of combat.
That's the problem: cast out of combat. Where is my Web spell, or my grease? Where are those beautifull spells like Maze that never made hitpoint damage but when casted at the right time changed the ballance of the battle?
I already knew that non-combat spells were still there as rituals, what I was mentioning that non-damage combat spells where deleted from the Wizards spells.
No, I'm not a munchkin, I simply believe there are some who deserve to be above and some below because those below don't make the necessary effort to rise (and I mean it as honest effort, not by doing something wrong), being good with a sword doesn't requires as much effort as casting a cantrip. That's why Wizards have bigger starting age than fighters.
And yet it doesn't take any longer to multiclass into a 1st-level Wizard then it does to multiclass into a 1st-level Fighter.
And that kind of starting is the exception rather than the rule. Just by having to roll 4d6 dice six times somebody is going to be better than others. Just like in life. Point buy was created after that system and I find it very bland because it doesn't reflects the reality of life, that nobody is equal to others. Just by being born in a rich family gives you opportunities you don't have if you were born in a poor one.
But once again, this is a game. A game about teamplay in which every character is supposed to bring something to the table. This isn't supposed to be a game about a Wizard and his four henchmen. The game shouldn't be about automatically exalting one or two characters above the rest.
Everybody does if they accept the place each character has.
Their place as the henchman and lackey?
Except for the lest experienced player of my group, everybody has levels in spellcasting classes that reflect the abilities their characters should have. I play a Wizard/Elemental Savant, my GF plays a Rogue/Bard, the rest play Sorcerer/Fighter/Knight of the Weave, a Druid, a Cleric and the only non-spellcasting character of my group is a Fighter/Champion of Corellon Larethian that can easely make over 50 points of damage in a confirmed critical with his Adamantine Longsword (and they say Fighters are useless, any experienced D&D player can make a Fighter as good and fun as any other class, you just need the right attitude). Each character of my group has a lot of fun with their characters, meaning that I'm doing right in my job as DM (last session I gave The Warblade to the Fighter and my Wizard made the ritual to make the transformation to a half-elemental).
Definitely says something that pretty much everybody in your group is one form of spellcaster or another.
The path of the Wizard is the path to godhood, the best wizards have become gods and trascended their flaws. There is no fighter with the self-power to do that.
Myth and legend is replete with just such figures, like Beowulf. Whatever the case, D&D Wizards have morphed far beyond their source material into gross monsters that belong in some other game. So it's about time they get reigned back in. The game, after all, isn't called 'Wizards & Warlocks'.
That's the problem: cast out of combat. Where is my Web spell, or my grease? Where are those beautifull spells like Maze that never made hitpoint damage but when casted at the right time changed the ballance of the battle?
They're Utility Spells.
:OMG! 
I like the fact that in 4E all of the classes will be relatively equal, well we will know for sure next month. Heck maybe this month when the First Adventure is released.(Which I pre-ordered through Paizo:dancin
Please keep the posts civil. Ok, thanks. Discuss what you like what you dont like but please keep it civil. GK after reading what you had posted about the article I am starting to come to like the 4E Multiclass rules.:D 18D
And yet it doesn't take any longer to multiclass into a 1st-level Wizard then it does to multiclass into a 1st-level Fighter.
Which is something that has bothered me a lot. That's why multiclassing at my table must be done after propper training. You can't suddenly know how to swing a sword if you were your whole life praying to Oghma.
But once again, this is a game. A game about teamplay in which every character is supposed to bring something to the table.
And each one does. Wizards aren't omnipotent (it would be too boring) and nobody can beat a Cleric with healing, or a Fighter in maneuverability (when the encounter is almost finished I never spend spells if there are methods that can do the same with less expenditure of resources), or a Rogue when dealing with their area of expertise.
This isn't supposed to be a game about a Wizard and his four henchmen. The game shouldn't be about automatically exalting one or two characters above the rest.
And it isn't, but that doesn't means that Wizards should be nerfed. For me a good and fun game comes when the characters are part of a meaningfull story and each character grows (not in levels but in story). Combat in my group is not the most important things. That's why I DM a game with more power than what characters usually have with the rules. To me a battle doesn't has meaning unless it's the last battle in the defense of Myth Drannor or the first battle in the crusade against the Forces of Zhentil Keep that decided to conquer the Dales. I'm currently DMing CotSQ and after that the characters are going to prepare themselves (unknowingly to them) to become part of the Elven Crusade (Heroes of Battle here I come) when each player is going to command their own units. And after that they are going to become leaders in Myth Drannor when their decisions, not their levels, are going to matter.
Their place as the henchman and lackey?
Not in my group, the Fighter is a Chosen Warrior of Corellon Larethian, not some human mercenary, that's what makes the other characters respect him (and because he could cleave in half our characters with just one attack :D ). The Cleric is a priestess of Eilistraee, the Rogue/Bard is an expert diplomat and excellent musician. The Sorcerer/Fighter is member of the Guardians of the Weave and Alediran is part of an elven clan dedicated to the acumulation of lore about the whole Realms. There is a purpose in each character that extends beyond class.
Definitely says something that pretty much everybody in your group is one form of spellcaster or another.
Yes, that we are a group of players when the youngest (me) is over 23 years old and loves to play with complex mechanics.
Myth and legend is replete with just such figures, like Beowulf. Whatever the case, D&D Wizards have morphed far beyond their source material into gross monsters that belong in some other game. So it's about time they get reigned back in. The game, after all, isn't called 'Wizards & Warlocks'.
One of the most attractive aspect of D&D was it's magic, that is being nerfed so low is going to kill what D&D meant. Since first edition Spellcasters were the superior race. It's actually on this edition when non-spellcasters became more powerful. A 2nd edition Wizard with access to the same level spells than a 3rd edition Wizard would always win against a 3rd edition Wizard.
They're Utility Spells.
Which wizards aren't going to have. I've read the previews that said Wizards are going to have: Spells that deal damage and a secondary tactical effect and Rituals, but they aren't going to have spells like Grease, Maze and Web. Which is something that I find LAME because direct damage spells often aren't the most effective spells in a battle. A Grease spell that causes every enemy to slip and fall prone makes you friendlier with the Fighter in the group.
Not in my group, the Fighter is a Chosen Warrior of Corellon Larethian, not some human mercenary, that's what makes the other characters respect him (and because he could cleave in half our characters with just one attack :D ).
The point is that even the human mercenary deserves to have fun.
They shouldn't just be there to protect another character (unless, of course, that's what they genuinely would like to do).Since first edition Spellcasters were the superior race.
Superior race?
The point is that even the human mercenary deserves to have fun.
On account of protecting the group nobody does more than Spellcasters, I never see any front-line fighter complaining when they recieve buffs or healing spells.
Superior race?
Class, I'm getting sleepy and at the same time I'm trying to understand the fun in Vampire: the Requiem (which I still don't get it, at least Mage themes are more familiar to my mind)
Wizards aren't omnipotent (it would be too boring)
It should always hit, because magic stems from ideas, and when a Wizard casts a spell he is retrieveing arcane energies and molding them with the ideas in his mind, and if the idea includes that the spell automatically hits then it does, ideas are faster than light. And any experienced mage in distant casting can blast a place that is over 300000 kilometers from where he is.
Auto-hit from pretty much any range sounds pretty damn near omnipotent to me.
or a Fighter in maneuverability (when the encounter is almost finished I never spend spells if there are methods that can do the same with less expenditure of resources), or a Rogue when dealing with their area of expertise
Except that a Wizard can beat both those classes. Hell, when it comes to the Rogue, he can start making that class obsolete pretty damn early, soon as he gets the Knock spell. Once that happens, the Rogue's Lock Picking skills will suddenly see a precipitous decrease in value.
And it isn't, but that doesn't means that Wizards should be nerfed.
It does when they're stepping on the toes of other classes to the point that they do the job of specialists better then the specialists themselves do.
Yes, that we are a group of players when the youngest (me) is over 23 years old and loves to play with complex mechanics.
Well, two things can be inferred from this.
1) Wizards are more interesting to play. So why shouldn't Fighters and Rogues have that same kind of depth to them?
2) That the only way for those characters to have any meaningful contribution to the campaign is to have some kind of spellcasting capability.
In those two cases, that's something that WotC is aiming to fix with 4E, as Fighters, Rogues, etc will not only have more options, but they'll be able to contribute to the success of the party alongside the Wizard without being eclipsed.
One of the most attractive aspect of D&D was it's magic, that is being nerfed so low is going to kill what D&D meant.
In your opinion. The most attractive aspect of D&D, to me, is the team aspect. A group of heroes coming together to accomplish great things. Each with different strengths which, when brought together, become greater then the sum of their parts. THAT is the game I want to play. Unfortunately, the game we got is one where the Fighter and Rogue, instead of levelling up and becoming a Beowulf, Odysseus, Cu Chullain, Conan, Gilgamesh, or Achilles, instead becomes a lackey to the Wizard. A glorified henchman and bodyguard, whose contribution to the success of the party is next to meaningless in comparison to the Wizard. And you think that's right? That the higher level you achieve, the less important your place in the party becomes?
Since first edition Spellcasters were the superior race.
And that was a mistake in design, not a feature.
Which wizards aren't going to have. I've read the previews that said Wizards are going to have: Spells that deal damage and a secondary tactical effect and Rituals, but they aren't going to have spells like Grease, Maze and Web. Which is something that I find LAME because direct damage spells often aren't the most effective spells in a battle. A Grease spell that causes every enemy to slip and fall prone makes you friendlier with the Fighter in the group.
Have you read anything which specifically states they aren't going to have spells like Grease, Maze, and Web? Some things are being cut, because they're stepping on the toes of other classes, but Grease and Web? I doubt it. Especially since those kinds of spells fall under the very definition of being a 'Controller'.
And Utility Spells are spells which have both combat and non-combat uses.
Auto-hit from pretty much any range sounds pretty damn near omnipotent to me.
With just one spell. Most of them don't auto-hit or have shorter ranges.
Except that a Wizard can beat both those classes. Hell, when it comes to the Rogue, he can start making that class obsolete pretty damn early, soon as he gets the Knock spell. Once that happens, the Rogue's Lock Picking skills will suddenly see a precipitous decrease in value.
This is where the Wizard player should apply Common Sense. Learning knock gives you the ability to open dors but at what price? If you have a Rogue in the party I would say the trade is stacked against the wizard, since he's spending spells slots in something the rogue can do and do it free (no spellcaster in my group has knock because we have a rogue, otherwise we would surely have it)
It does when they're stepping on the toes of other classes to the point that they do the job of specialists better then the specialists themselves do.
Only if the spellcaster player preparse those spells, which is a wise move if you don't have specialists in those areas, but a waste of resources if you do.
1) Wizards are more interesting to play. So why shouldn't Fighters and Rogues have that same kind of depth to them?
Fighters and Rogues in my adventures have the depth that comes from role-playing and personality building, not stats. I'm sure I could make a first level fighter more interesting as a character than somebody with a 20 lvl Wizard without much background. Fun comes from role-playing, not just combat, it's only one aspect of the game.
2) That the only way for those characters to have any meaningful contribution to the campaign is to have some kind of spellcasting capability.
They have them because they fit their character's history. We create characters first by doing their story and only after it sound good we start choosing classes. The Rogue/Bard was a Moon Elf raised by Halflings who taught her those skills but after a while she adventured some time with a Sun Elf Bard who became her teacher. That's why she has Bard levels.
Rangers, even without spells, are better as characters than plain fighters for a reason, they have unique skills that are neatly fitted for the character's concept. The problem with the Fighter is that they tried to do a generic pool for warrior types and ended being sub-par. I don't like fighters with big swords and heavy armor, I love Rapier-weilding Leather-cladd mobile Swashbucklers and I always play Swashbucklers when making pure martial characters.
In those two cases, that's something that WotC is aiming to fix with 4E, as Fighters, Rogues, etc will not only have more options, but they'll be able to contribute to the success of the party alongside the Wizard without being eclipsed.
I'm ok for other classes having more options (I loved what Paizo did to Fighters in Pathfinder), but it doesn't means they should ALSO de-power Wizards. A character is fun to play not because of his options but because how it fits the game. And for playing pure fighters there are better games: 7th Sea comes to my mind for example (I'm dying to play a Musketeers-kind of campaign in that game). I can have fun playing with any class, I just happen to like Wizards more because I'm a cerebral person who belives that intelligence is more important than physical strength.
In your opinion. The most attractive aspect of D&D, to me, is the team aspect. A group of heroes coming together to accomplish great things. Each with different strengths which, when brought together, become greater then the sum of their parts. THAT is the game I want to play.
And for my group is playing the character you want to play, not playing the character that is missing in the iconic 4 group. Both D&D DMs in my group have skill to adapt encounters to what the group has. If we are lacking in one area we found a way to fill that space in-game. With a pure Wizards group it means that if we encounter a closed door one of the wizards is going to learn knock, or we learn Eagle's Splendor and find ways to improve our diplomatic chances on a social encounter. The same if we have a mostly non-spellcasting group, we invert in UMD and items that any class can use.
Unfortunately, the game we got is one where the Fighter and Rogue, instead of levelling up and becoming a Beowulf, Odysseus, Cu Chullain, Conan, Gilgamesh, or Achilles, instead becomes a lackey to the Wizard.
Only if you are that bad building non-spellcasting characters. As a Blaster/Sniper Wizard (the role I usually fill) I'm more affraid of a Rogue than anything else since they are the ones who can better avoid my spells and deal the most damage to me (belive me when I say that a 10d6 sneak attack + extras is a "wonderful" thing to feel as a Wizard, especialy now that the Magic Item Compendium has items that increase Sneak Attack damage).
A glorified henchman and bodyguard, whose contribution to the success of the party is next to meaningless in comparison to the Wizard. And you think that's right? That the higher level you achieve, the less important your place in the party becomes?
Again, that is only important if you are playing a roll-playing campaign. By the time a Fighter gets to those levels he should be commanding armies, being the leader of a force to be reckoned with, while the Wizard spends time improving his magic and all that is Role-Play, something where mechanics don't have place. You should be pressent when I start the fourth chapter of my campaign where each character is going to be a commander and their combat options are going to be less important than making the right choice.
And that was a mistake in design, not a feature.
No, it's a feature of the game. D&D is one of the few RPGs where Wizards are more than just simple buffers/damage dealers (I don't play games where the most spellcasters get is some useless power that 99% of the time is useless, LotR is one of them, too limited and rigid, like Vampire, I found Thaumaturgy and most Vampiric Disciplines to be too rigid and not doing what they should, and why I also find WoW boring, Mages got Ice and Fire spells and some lame excuses with the arcane spells, not even decent buffs and that too forced cooperation gets on my nerves). I also don't play on settings where 90% of the time Arcane Spellcasters are going to be considered monsters by the society (the main reason I hate Dragonlance as a setting to play, and the forced need to belong to the Wizards of High Sorcery)
Have you read anything which specifically states they aren't going to have spells like Grease, Maze, and Web? Some things are being cut, because they're stepping on the toes of other classes, but Grease and Web? I doubt it. Especially since those kinds of spells fall under the very definition of being a 'Controller'.
Yes, in a thread on the main D&D boards where one of the big guys in Paizo was relating his experience in DDXP and saying that all Wizard spells were reduced to damage dealers with a secondary tactical advantage and specifically mentioned that Grease and Web aren't going to be spells available in 4ed.
And Utility Spells are spells which have both combat and non-combat uses.
Not on 4ed, if it's a spell that can be used in combat then it deals damage and has one tactical effect (there were many DDXP players who were complaining about this on the thread I mentioned). The clerics are going to deal Radiant Damage (great if you play a follower of Lathander, lame if you want to play a Sharist)
This is where the Wizard player should apply Common Sense. Learning knock gives you the ability to open dors but at what price? If you have a Rogue in the party I would say the trade is stacked against the wizard, since he's spending spells slots in something the rogue can do and do it free (no spellcaster in my group has knock because we have a rogue, otherwise we would surely have it)
But if a Wizard did choose to memorize it, though, the Rogue's lockpicking skills would be nigh worthless. That's just one example, though, of how a Wizard can take over the jobs of both a Fighter and a Rogue. The higher level he gets, the more the Wizard can take over the jobs of the Fighter and Rogue. That's not good game design, and that's not what D&D should be about.
Fighters and Rogues in my adventures have the depth that comes from role-playing and personality building, not stats. I'm sure I could make a first level fighter more interesting as a character than somebody with a 20 lvl Wizard without much background. Fun comes from role-playing, not just combat, it's only one aspect of the game.
Uh huh. So if depth is the most important thing, then why are you complaining? Why do you care if Wizards are less effective then before in combat? Why is it so important to you that Wizards utterly dominate in that regard? If the fun comes solely from roleplaying, and not from combat, then why does it matter to you if Wizards aren't as effective in combat as before?
Depth is great, and I love the roleplaying side, but players should feel engaged in the game in EVERY aspect. If players stop having fun once the initiative die is rolled, then there's something wrong with the game. So my question is this. What's so wrong with classes having an equal impact in combat? Exactly how is it detrimental to have characters balanced against each other and contributing equally in combat?
Personally, I prefer characters that are useful at every point of the game. Which is why I hate the Skill List on Fighters. Which brings up the point that Fighters suck out of combat, too. So when, exactly, do they get to shine? It isn't combat, because the Wizard eclipses them there. And it certainly isn't out-of-combat, so when? During those rare occasions when the Wizard runs out of spells? You work your way through over a dozen levels to become, what, a second stringer?
I'm ok for other classes having more options (I loved what Paizo did to Fighters in Pathfinder), but it doesn't means they should ALSO de-power Wizards.
It does if that's what it takes to properly balance the classes.
Again, that is only important if you are playing a roll-playing campaign. By the time a Fighter gets to those levels he should be commanding armies, being the leader of a force to be reckoned with, while the Wizard spends time improving his magic and all that is Role-Play, something where mechanics don't have place.
So the only way to balance a Fighter with a Wizard is to give him an army? Combat is not the only thing, but it IS an important part of every campaign. Even in heavy role-playing games, you'll still have combat. And you know what? People like to actually play in the game and contribute. Every character, every... single... character... should have the ability to earn its keep in combat at every level. If the game is designed in such a way that people playing certain classes stop having fun at certain points in the game, then there's something wrong with the mechanics.
No, it's a feature of the game.
A feature is something that's supposed to be working the way it was intended. The Wizards we have now are NOT what was intended for Wizards in D&D. That's why they're getting toned down. Because they've grown far beyond what they were supposed to be.
Yes, in a thread on the main D&D boards where one of the big guys in Paizo was relating his experience in DDXP and saying that all Wizard spells were reduced to damage dealers with a secondary tactical advantage and specifically mentioned that Grease and Web aren't going to be spells available in 4ed.
You do realize, right, that all people saw at DDXP were 1st-level characters? 1st-level characters are not indicative of the system. The spells that the 1st-level pregen Wizard had doesn't even represent the totality of spell choices available to a 1st-level Wizard, so their absence doesn't mean that Web and Grease don't exist. Not to mention that "all Wizard spells were reduced to damage dealers" isn't correct even if you only take into account the information from DDXP and nothing more. The pregen Wizard did, in fact, have spells that didn't inflict damage in combat. He had Light, Mage Hand, and Ghost Sound. Not a single one of those inflicts damage.
Not on 4ed, if it's a spell that can be used in combat then it deals damage and has one tactical effect (there were many DDXP players who were complaining about this on the thread I mentioned). The clerics are going to deal Radiant Damage (great if you play a follower of Lathander, lame if you want to play a Sharist)
Mirror Image is a Utility Spell. It doesn't deal damage. Resistance is a Utility Spell. It doesn't deal damage. Displacement is a Utility Spell. It doesn't deal damage. Fly is a Utility Spell. It doesn't deal damage. Greater Invisibility is a Utility Spell. It doesn't deal damage. Those're all actual 4E spells from the upcoming 4E PHB. And not a one of them deals damage.
The whole point of Utility Powers is that they're powers which're useful in combat, but which don't iinflict damage, and have their uses out of combat. So on this case, you're very much wrong.
This is my chart of class worthiness:
Full Spellcasters (Sorcerers at the bottom, Clerics, Druids and Wizards at the top)
Partial Spellcasters/Skilled classes (Rangers, Paladins, Monks, Rogues)
Pure combatants (Fighters above and Barbarians below)
I thought your list was pretty interesting, as your list almost exactly mirrors the list of what people believe to be the most powerful classes to the weakest classes (although the Barbarian is a bit higher up). In short, the classes which you consider to be the worthiest are also considered, by most D&D players, to be the most broken and overpowered. And those which you consider least worthy are also considered by most to be the underpowered and weak classes. Just thought that was interesting.
Whatever the case, it's pretty clear that 4E isn't the game for you. You prefer your Wizards with "phenomenal cosmic power". So why not just stick to it and quit complaining about 4E? Not as if you won't still see support through Pathfinder or something similar, and it's certainly not like you're books are gonna spontaneously combust once 4E is out. There're people who still play 1E, so just keep playing 3.5 if that's what suits you. Personally, though, I'm looking forward to 4E.
And here was me thinking that the 3E's prestige and complete classes (e.g. hexblade, duskblade) had done away with the far more complex and usually less potent multi-classing.
Well, if you believe some "4E Avengers", 3e multiclassing was either too weak or too powerful. Now, it will be Balanced, but restrictive.
And we will have multiclassing and myriads of base classes again. You can play a fighter/wizard in 4e. Or you just buy the FRCS and play a Swordmage.
Class, I'm getting sleepy and at the same time I'm trying to understand the fun in Vampire: the Requiem (which I still don't get it, at least Mage themes are more familiar to my mind)
Understood.
On the subject of fighters vs. mages, though, we'll have to disagree on that (assuming, of course, you aren't just joking when you say mages "are just better" than fighters). I like all the classes and have had fun with them, so...
-Two Hands of Karsus, battling for supremacy. This is unheard of! Survival of the fittest...
-...I like, I like...
The main advantage of the wizard was indeed her spell selection... she could potentially have any spell of the class list in her spellbook, but then I think the class gave too few spells per day compared to the sorcerer, and then even you had to guess which spells did you need and risk not to select spells that solved you nothing... I don't call this spell preparation 'worthiness' or 'superior intelligence'... I just call that wanting to unnecessary break your head.
I admit that the new 4E power system has its pros and cons. One of his pros is that a rookie player is not limited to play a fighter... a thing that happened to often in my games (about 50% of rookies played fighters). Now he can take any class because mechanically they will be very similar.
One of the main drawbacks is that now all players have to 'choose spells' for their characters. That's not a problem for experienced players like us, but rookies will find it quite annoying. Another drawback is that if the 3.x PHB had half the book in spells, the 4E one now will proably have about 90% in powers... and to say the least about extra sourcebooks that will be released.
-Two Hands of Karsus, battling for supremacy. This is unheard of! Survival of the fittest...
-...I like, I like...
Internal crisis or something else?...
There is no emotion, there is peace,
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge,
There is no chaos, there is harmony,
There is no passion, there is serenity,
There is no death, there is The Force.
Or it's more recent reincarnation
Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.
Jedi respect all life, in any form.
Jedi serve others rather than ruling over them, for the good of the galaxy.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.
A gallant knight
In sunshine and in shadow,
Had journeyed long,
Singing a song,
In search of El Dorado.
But he grew old --
This knight so bold --
And -- o'er his heart a shadow
Fell as he found
No spot of ground
That looked like El Dorado.
And, as his strength
Failed him at length,
He met a pilgrim shadow --
"Shadow," said he,
"Where can it be --
This land of El Dorado?"
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon,
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied --
"If you seek for El Dorado."
Internal crisis or something else?...
-These things happen, especially when there are so many varying personalities in my service.
-And, hell, I might as well join in, too. I hate being left out:
How this:
Help me
I broke apart my insides
Help me
I got no soul to sell
Help me
The only thing that works for me--
Help me get away from myself!
Close your eyes and I'll kiss you
Tomorrow I'll miss you
Remember I'll always be true
And then while I'm away
I'll write home every day
And I'll send all my loving to you
I'll pretend that I'm kissing
The lips I am missing
And hope that my dreams will come true
And then while I'm away
I'll write home every day
And I'll send all my loving to you
All my loving, I will send to you
All my loving, darling I'll be true
Close your eyes and I'll kiss you
Tomorrow I'll miss you
Remember I'll always be true
And then while I'm away
I'll write home every day
And I'll send all my loving to you
All my loving, I will send to you
All my loving, darling I'll be true
All my loving, All my loving
Woo, all my loving, I will send to you
I'll sing a short one:
Shave and a haircut,
Two cents!
There, I'm done.
How about this - War Pigs by Ozzy/Black Sabbath
"Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerers of deaths construction
In the fields the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed minds, oh lord yeah!
Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor
Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait till their judgement day comes, yeah!
Now in darkness, world stops turning
As the war machine keeps burning
No more war pigs of the power
Hand of God has sturck the hour
Day of judgement, God is calling
On their knees, the war pigs crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings
All right now!"
For some reason, that song reminds me of the Crown Wars. :P
Anyhow, I'm all for the 'level playing field'. In 1e, Wizards sucked at low levels, and took over the game at higher ones. The best game was always around the mid-levels, which WotC has called 'the sweet spot'. I think they are right on target there, after so many years of playing this game.
I remember playing a Wizard - ONCE - in 1e; I got to cast light in the first hallway of the dugeon, and then for the next three sessions got to carry the fighter's backpack while he killed everything.
Geee... wasn't THAT fun?
A Wizard should have decent powers starting out, and they should increase linearly, not exponentially, like the fighter's, or Rogue's. Incredibly powerful, nigh-undefeatable Mages as NPCs make great villains, but boring PCs (at least, for the rest of the group).
And most of the systems I have played in required the Wizard to 'target' his opponent, so it's about time D&D finally caught up to the rest.
What I don't understand, Alediran, is why you think the Wizard is less powerful now? Sure, his Magic Missiles can miss, but he can cast them over and over again. What would you rather do? Cast MM once and have it auto-hit, or cast it four times, and have it hit three?
If anything, it sounds like the Wizards is becoming the 'Big Gun' he was always meant to be.
Haven't seen the rules yet, but I certainly hope they haven't taken out all the flavor spells. I would have to agree that that would be rather boring.
I know that one.
I'll sing a short one:
Shave and a haircut,
Two cents!
There, I'm done.
-Two cents? Geeze, that's a deal if I ever heard one. What do I pay? Like $12.00? I let my hair grow a little bit longer than I used to, though, so I only get a haircut like three times a year, rather than, like, every two months or so, like I used to. Half of the time, though, I'm wearing a hat, though, so it doesn't even matter, really. I only don't wear my hat, and actually look at myself in a mirror and whatnot on special occasions, anyway. I try not to scare myself. :P
I remember every little thing
As if it happened only yesterday
Parking by the lake
And there was not another car in sight
And I never had a girl
Looking any better than you did
And all the kids at school
They were wishing they were me that night
And now our bodies are oh so close and tight
It never felt so good, it never felt so right
And we're glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
C'mon! Hold on tight!
C'mon! Hold on tight!
Though it's cold and lonely in the deep dark night
I can see paradise by the dashboard light
Girl:
Ain't no doubt about it
We were doubly blessed
Cause we were barely seventeen
And we were barely dressed
Ain't no doubt about it
Baby got to go and shout it
Ain't no doubt about it
We were doubly blessed
Boy:
Cause we were barely seventeen
And we were barely dressed
Baby doncha hear my heart
You got it drowning out the radio
I've been waiting so long
For you to come along and have some fun
And I gotta let ya know
No you're never gonna regret it
So open up your eyes I got a big surprise
It'll feel all right
Well I wanna make your motor run
And now our bodies are oh so close and tight
It never felt so good, it never felt so right
And we're glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
C'mon! Hold on tight!
C'mon! Hold on tight!
Though it's cold and lonely in the deep dark night
I can see paradise by the dashboard light
Paradise by the dashboard light
You got to do what you can
And let Mother Nature do the rest
Ain't no doubt about it
We were doubly blessed
Cause we were barely seventeen
And we were barely--
We're gonna go all the way tonight
We're gonna go allt he way
An tonight's the night...
Radio Broadcast:
Ok, here we go, we got a real pressure cooker
going here, two down, nobody on, no score,
bottom of the ninth, there's the wind-up and
there it is, a line shot up the middle, look
at him go. This boy can really fly!
He's rounding first and really turning it on
now, he's not letting up at all, he's gonna
try for second; the ball is bobbled out in center,
and here comes the throw, and what a throw!
He's gonna slide in head first, here he comes, he's out!
No, wait, safe--safe at second base, this kid really
makes things happen out there.
Batter steps up to the plate, here's the pitch--
he's going, and what a jump he's got, he's trying
for third, here's the throw, it's in the dirt--
safe at third! Holy cow, stolen base!
He's taking a pretty big lead out there, almost
daring him to try and pick him off. The pitcher
glance over, winds up, and it's bunted, bunted
down the third base line, the suicide squeeze is on!
Here he comes, squeeze play, it's gonna be close,
here's the throw, there's the play at the plate,
holy cow, I think he's gonna make it!
Girl:
Stop right there!
I gotta know right now!
Before we go any further--!
Do you love me?
Will you love me forever?
Do you need me?
Will you never leave me?
Will you make me so happy for the rest of my life?
Will you take me away and will you make me your wife?
Do you love me!?
Will you love me forever!?
Do you need me!?
Will you never leave me!?
Will you make me so happy for the rest of my life!?
Will you take me away and will you make me your wife!?
I gotta know right now
Before we go any further
Do you love me!!!?
Will you love me forever!!!?
Boy:
Let me sleep on it
Baby, baby let me sleep on it
Let me sleep on it
And I'll give you my answer in the morning
Let me sleep on it
Baby, baby let me sleep on it
Let me sleep on it
And I'll give you my answer in the morning
Let me sleep on it
Baby, baby let me sleep on it
Let me sleep on it
And I'll give you my answer in the morning
Girl:
I gotta know right now!
Do you love me?
Will you love me forever?
Do you need me?
Will you never leave me?
Will you make me so happy for the rest of my life?
Will you take me away and will you make me your wife?
I gotta know right now!
Before we go any further
Do you love me?
And will you love me forever?
Boy:
Let me sleep on it
Baby, baby let me sleep on it
Let me sleep on it
And I'll give you my answer in the morning
Let me sleep on it!!!
Girl:
Will you love me forever?
Boy:
Let me sleep on it!!!
Girl:
Will you love me forever!!!
Boy:
I couldn't take it any longer
Lord I was crazed
And when the feeling came upon me
Like a tidal wave
I started swearing to my god and on my mother's grave
That I would love you to the end of time
I swore that I would love you to the end of time!
So now I'm praying for the end of time
To hurry up and arrive
Cause if I gotta spend another minute with you
I don't think that I can really survive
I'll never break my promise or forget my vow
But God only knows what I can do right now
I'm praying for the end of time
It's all that I can do
Praying for the end of time, so I can end my time with you!!!
Boy:
It was long ago and it was far away
and it was so much better than it is today
Girl:
It never felt so good
It never felt so right
And we were glowing like
A metal on the edge of a knife
Die With Your Boots On
Another Prophet of Disaster
Who says the ship is lost,
Another Prophet of Disaster
Leaving you to count the cost.
Taunting us with Visions,
Afflicting us with fear,
Predicting War for millions,
In the hope that one appears.
No point asking when it is,
No point asking who's to go,
No point asking what's the game,
No point asking who's to blame,
'Cos if you're gonna die, if you're gonna die,
'Cos if you're gonna die, if you're gonna die,
If you're gonna die, die with your boots on,
If you're gonna try, just stick around,
Gonna cry, just move along,
If you're gonna die, if you're gonna die.
In 13 the Beast is Rising,
The Frenchman did surmise,
Through earthquakes and starvation,
The Warlord will arise,
Terror, Death, Destruction,
Pour from the Eastern sands,
But the truth of all predictions,
Is always in your hands.
If you're gonna die, die with your boots on,
If you're gonna try, just stick around,
Gonna cry, just move along,
If you're gonna die, if you're gonna die.
The Trooper
You'll take my life but I'll take yours too
You'll fire your musket but I'll run you through
So when you're waiting for the next attack
You'd better stand there's no turning back.
The Bugle sounds and the charge begins
But on this battlefield no one wins
The smell of acrid smoke and horses breath
As I plunge on into certain death.
The horse he sweats with fear we break to run
The mighty roar of the Russian guns
And as we race towards the human wall
The screams of pain as my comrades fall.
We hurdle bodies that lay on the ground
And the Russians fire another round
We get so near yet so far away
We won't live to fight another day.
We get so close near enough to fight
When a Russian gets me in his sights
He pulls the trigger and I feel the blow
A burst of rounds take my horse below.
And as I lay there gazing at the sky
My body's numb and my throat is dry
And as I lay forgotten and alone
Without a tear I draw my parting groan.
Fear of the Dark
I am a man who walks alone
And when I'm walking a dark road
At night or strolling through the park
When the light begins to change
I sometimes feel a little strange
A little anxious when it's dark.
Fear of the dark,fear of the dark
I have constant fear that something's always near
Fear of the dark,fear of the dark
I have a phobia that someone's always there
Have you run your fingers down the wall
And have you felt your neck skin crawl
When you're searching for the light ?
Sometimes when you're scared to take a look
At the corner of the room
You've sensed that something's watching you.
Have you ever been alone at night
Thought you heard footsteps behind
And turned around and no-one's there ?
And as you quicken up your pace
You find it hard to look again
Because you're sure there's someone there
Watching horror films the night before
Debating witches and folklore
The unknown troubles on your mind
Maybe your mind is playing tricks
You sense,and suddenly eyes fix
On dancing shadows from behind.
Fear of the dark, fear of the dark
I have a constant fear, thought you heard
Fear of the dark, fear of the dark
I have a phobia that someone's always there.
When I'm walking a dark road
I am a man who walks alone
-And, that "Radio Broadcaster" is Phil Rizutto. Pfft.
-Two cents? Geeze, that's a deal if I ever heard one. What do I pay? Like $12.00? I let my hair grow a little bit longer than I used to, though, so I only get a haircut like three times a year, rather than, like, every two months or so, like I used to. Half of the time, though, I'm wearing a hat, though, so it doesn't even matter, really. I only don't wear my hat, and actually look at myself in a mirror and whatnot on special occasions, anyway. I try not to scare myself. :P
I think your hair looks fine.
Anyway, that song (and yeah, Markus, maybe it was "two bits") is obviously the product of an earlier time.;)
-Well, at least I tried to tie my song to the thread. Come on, people!
Wait, we were doing theme songs? Christ, I've been humiliated! :raincloud
I think your hair looks fine.
-Your hair is nicer. And, I love that curl at the bottom, but it goes outwards, and not inwards, like everyone else thing you do.
Wait, we were doing theme songs? Christ, I've been humiliated! :raincloud
-Hmm...I don't think I have a theme song...
-I'll need to think on that.
-Your hair is nicer. And, I love that curl at the bottom, but it goes outwards, and not inwards, like everyone else thing you do.
Awww, geez...:embarrass Thanks.
Wait, we were doing theme songs? Christ, I've been humiliated! :raincloud
Aww, cheer up. Let's watch something funny.
The first few seconds have me in stitches.
Up the Irons!
You know what real music is... I prefer the human lich bard/fighter/diresinger multiclass known as Eddie The Head.
HALLOWED BE THY NAME
Oh, well... whenever,
wherever you are,
Iron Maiden's gonna get you,
no matter how far.
See the blood flow
watching it shed,
up above my head
Iron Maiden wants you for dead.
You know what real music is... I prefer the human lich bard/fighter/diresinger multiclass known as Eddie The Head.
-Stats, link? That LOOKS AWESOME.
HALLOWED BE THY NAME
-Stats, link? That LOOKS AWESOME.
The idea came after reading Song and Silence: A Guidebook to Bards and Rogues, when I saw the Requiem feat...
The idea became partially true after the release of Libris Mortis... I don't know if I have the character sheet somewhere at home or in the PC.
-I saw Iron Maiden Live in 1985 when I was 13. The world Slavery Tour. You Rock!!!:D
You lucky bastard... I have to resign myself with the Live After Death DVD. :D I'm not gonna miss the show this year with the Somewhere Back In Time World Tour.
You know what "they" say...
Oh, well... whenever,
wherever you are,
Iron Maiden's gonna get you,
no matter how far.
See the blood flow
watching it shed,
up above my head
Iron Maiden wants you for dead.
Yeah. I'm pretty sure you could bore someone to death with Iron Maiden. ;)
I've already seen Iron Maiden this year when they played in Argentina. I ended in a very sorry state after that (You never went to a metal concert unless it was in Argentina or Brazil)
-I can only imagine.
Yeah. I'm pretty sure you could bore someone to death with Iron Maiden. ;)
-Iron Maiden is never boring!:P
18D
-Iron Maiden is never boring!:P
Well, no innovation since the beginning counts as boring in my book.
Well, no innovation since the beginning counts as boring in my book.
touché, huh!... That hurt.I don't know how many Maiden albums have you heard, but no innovation is, of course, nothing to be applied on these guys... Compare these songs:
Invasion (1976-9)
Phantom of The Opera (1979-80)
Run to the Hills (1982)
2 Minutes to Midnight (1984)
Wasted Years (1986)
The Clairvoyant (1988)
Fear of the Dark (1992)
The Clansman (1998)
Brave New World (2000)
The Longest Day (2006)
This list is representative of their evolution... If Maiden did not innovate, nobody would remember them.
I still have a lasting trauma. ;)
No, thank you very much. I did this once.
You don't have to... the problem is yours ;)
Don't care for them much myself... could say that about most metal bands though, as its not really my cup of tea.
Heh, I thought that stuff would be your thing.
That's IT?
LAAAAAAAAAME. It's too weak. And WotC has discarded any spell that doesn't deals damage. For me it's a complete lack of respect for any player who loves Wizards. The class has been totally nerfed and dumbed down to the level of stupidity elevated at the cubic potence.
Funny, with many of your comments you should find a fun home on the Optimization forums.;)
I like the new wizard because it is not broken sounding or overpowered like the last edition (yet). I just got done running my first chapter of my campaign, the second will work 4E into the story. Anyway I was going to have my gestalt (yep
) players face off agaisnt a few lowly kobolds all loaded with Powerword Disable after they fought some Zakya Rakshashas and a fire giant. Some were below 50 hp at that point. So since none of them had Spell Resistence only the Minotaur would be left standing unless thekobolds lost inititive. The kobolds could easily take out the 100hp+ minotaur with a ray of stupidity pretty easily. The Power Wod spells are OP because no rolls for saves or to hit, I just tell the player what it does depending on its HPS. The Ray can be OP since the Touch AC of many things is really low.
I mean maximized Ray of Clumsiness could be dragonkillers unless the DM reworked the dragons dex a little.
On the subject of Multiclassing I am hoping I can do the Wizard with feats and powers of a swordmage. This sounds like alot of fun to me and I do not have to be a broken, OP build to enjoy D&D and make myself feel special. Eevery class and build will help me feel good when I play this game it seems (So far).
This is from a concert they played in Buenos Aires: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm_rusYJdyg
This comes from the concert they gave this year (I was there, and yes, anybody can tell we are very passionate humans here, almost as mercurial as the fae, which is both blessing and curse for us): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdEuhKK988s
This one reflect more about what I said of us (not much quality though): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUKZ4re091E&feature=related
Goth is thankfully quite diverse... though as far as 'hard' music is concerned, I go with Industrial over anything else.
-My categorizations are quite simple, but apparently, heretical. There's Modern Rock (which, I guess would be 80s-today Alternative), there's Classic Rock (60s-80s Rock and Rock/Pop) and there's Hard Rock (everything else, that sounds loud).
-I also like Ska and Skunk (Ska/Punk) as well. Sublime, FTW. It says as much in my signature.
I like the new wizard because it is not broken sounding or overpowered like the last edition (yet).
-Any class can be abused. I have a player who has a Rogue who does something stupid, like 60+ points of damage with Sneak Attack, at Level 8 (or was it 9?). The character can't do anything except hide, sneak, and kill things. It's sad, actually.
-Apparently, according to "those who know". Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers, Psions, Rogues, and Druids were all broken. Hell, that's half the game right there...
-Apparently, according to "those who know". Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers, Psions, Rogues, and Druids were all broken. Hell, that's half the game right there...
Yea, as I said in another thread, a lvl 15 paladin with the right feats and equipment could drop a balor or pit fiend in 1 swing (FTW!)
Yea, as I said in another thread, a lvl 15 paladin with the right feats and equipment could drop a balor or pit fiend in 1 swing (FTW!)
-Yeah, I remember that one.
Nope, Goth-Boy, very different from metal... occassional death and dark metal crossover stuff, but not much of that even. ;)
Do you like NIN?
-Yeah, I remember that one.
:D
Do you like NIN?
Not particularly... their very early stuff was passable, but still not much to my liking. Front 242, Pigface, RevCo, Skinny Puppy are far more to my liking as far as industrial goes.
Not particularly... their very early stuff was passable, but still not much to my liking. Front 242, Pigface, RevCo, Skinny Puppy are far more to my liking as far as industrial goes.
*laughs* I've never even heard of those groups.
Needless to say, I like NIN.
Clerics and Druids are probably worse in many ways since they can swap out their spells everyday and are not "stuck" with what is on their spell list. A cleric can melee and if they take the right Divine Metamagic feats they can have be buffed all day. Natural spell let the druid cast spells in melee/animal form, pretty sweet. So they too could fight and do other things really well.
In my examples some npcs who were lower level than the PCs almost did a real number on them because their "reality altering" spells were pretty OP. I noticed as the years passed that the powergamers seemed to go right for the wizards and druids. I just hope this does not happen in 4E. We shall see as time goes by though.
Never heard of them? Not much into Industrial then... I take it you aren't aware of Ministry then?
No.
My tastes do tend to be eclectic, btw. It's not so much that I'm not into Industrial, so much that I don't focus on it, nor have I delved into it too deeply.
LK, you are talking about a rog that can do one thing really well.
What's a rog?
I noticed as the years passed that the powergamers seemed to go right for the wizards and druids. I just hope this does not happen in 4E. We shall see as time goes by though.
Well, if I choose those classes, it's because I like the concept behind them, or I think they would fit a certain character.
Rog is presumably a rogue. As to powergaming, that's going to happen in any edition, but just because someone can find a way to exploit a particular class with enough looking doesn't mean that its inherently broken.
A melee PC cannot do that.
Then you don't know as much as you belive about D&D. Yesterday during a fight inside Castle Maerymidra our pure Fighter/Champion of Corellon Larethian killed half the drow in one room in one round. Our Druid casted Lion's Charge to him (which allows the target to use his full attack while charging), which combined with Spring Attack allows him to charge and hit many targets, 3 of the 4 attacks killed the target in one swing and the last one was reduced to half his HPs. The Eldritch Knight of my group got a double Natural 20 with a Greataxe and dished over 50 HP damage to a drow (basicaly he lifted the drow with the strike, cleaved him in half and stamped his remains inside a wall)
And any DM who can't make any challenge to a Wizard doesn't deserves to sit at the DM chair. A good DM knows how to challenge all classes.
And BTW, when we get to chapter 4 of my campaign that same Fighter/Champion of Corellon Larethian is going to be the Commander of an army of Elves during the Elven Crusade, up in a horse he is even more dangerous. Each member of my group is going to command a part of the Crusade.
A 1st level sorc, beguiler, or wiz can cast Sleep or Color Spray on multiple targets and basically take out a whole encounter with one spell. Pretty powerful and something a melee class could not do. Maybe a melee could kill 2 targets but not anything more. We had the beguiler in our group drop hordes of baddies at low level before melee could even get to them. Just with Color Spray. He didn't have any killer build he was using a simple spell that worked as a save or die at low levels.
And the problem you had was that the DM allowed that particular spell. There is nothing broken with Spellcasters, only on some spells which don't fit some types of playing (my group doesn't has problems with any spell for example, and the pure fighter player is having as much, if not greater fun than us, she is the only doing fancy moves in combat that makes the rest of the party look like blocks of ice).
And any decent DM can kill that 1st level caster without doing anything fancy, just a straight readied action with an archer to hit the caster when he starts casting. No 1st level spellcaster can succeede that concentration roll without a nat 20, not even counting that a good roll with a Longbow could kill him just by doing half his total HP in damage (which again means saving Fortitude with nat 20 or die).
Seriously man, you sound like somebody who never played a Spellcaster. Just because we know how to hide/cancel our weak points doesn't means there is not always something to counter the powers of Spellcasters (Dead Magic Zones for example)
Our DM tried throwing big challenges at us all the time. If that PC didn't have that spell there would have been two TPKs. That pc also had a wand that could summon monsters which helped us when the DM tried to throw a killer construct at us. The one melee guy finally fely useful at around 6th level when his "build" finally kicked in. The beguiler had no real build he was going for and color spray is a Core spell. At 5th level it is somewhat useless except for countering invisible creatures and putting on a dance show with it. ;)
The problem is that he throwed big or weak challenges, instead of using a more subtle strategy of slowly wearing down the group. Belive me that after the 5th encounter without sleep things begin to get bleak even with only one goblin as an encounter. That's when strategy and team work trully kicks in.
Pity, great stuff for when you're in an aggressive mood.
See, I find that when I'm in an aggressive mood, I'm better off not listening to aggressively-minded music.
For me, I've found sometimes no music at all (at that time) is best.Rog is presumably a rogue. As to powergaming, that's going to happen in any edition, but just because someone can find a way to exploit a particular class with enough looking doesn't mean that its inherently broken.
I agree with that.
Belive me that after the 5th encounter without sleep things begin to get bleak even with only one goblin as an encounter. That's when strategy and team work trully kicks in.
Hence why they created those wonderful, beautiful, lovable Reserve Feats. Seriously, any wizard i have uses his 5th level bonus wizard feat to gain Storm Bolt. Hold back an electricity spell of 3rd level or higher and deal 1d6 per level of the reserved spell all day long. No save, no touch, and it's a line effect.
Hence why they created those wonderful, beautiful, lovable Reserve Feats. Seriously, any wizard i have uses his 5th level bonus wizard feat to gain Storm Bolt. Hold back an electricity spell of 3rd level or higher and deal 1d6 per level of the reserved spell all day long. No save, no touch, and it's a line effect.
But for that you need to be at least 5th level, when Color Spray didn't have the problems Rauric told us. And at 5th level you have Fireball and other nice spells.
At high level I was able to bestow curse on a pyro-hydra that was really wonking us. Since I was able to cast it from afar with spectral hand (I was a cleric, it's complicated) I never got a scratch. The curse was one he used on us from Dragon. It made the creature unable to do anything but subdual to us. Good times. I blinded a caster like that once also. Bascially with one spell I deflated much of his encounters. It happens and was great for us but not very dramatic.
A melee PC cannot do that.
-Around the same time a Wizard can cause 50 points of damage, or so, a Fighter can also cause 50 points of damage. Anything that causes 50+ points of damage can instantly kill anything, should it fail that roll.
-And, concerning spells, all I know is that I have a renewed love for Daze.
-And, concerning spells, all I know is that I have a renewed love for Daze.
Me too.
It's like, the only spell I'm using right now.LK, by the time he can do 50+ damage he has even better spells that can outshine the rest of the party. People also say that at low levels melee is supreme but I was in a campaign where the casters used "save or die" spells all the time and won out. I am basically talking about the fact that casters can kill things or take them out as efficiently or better than melee and still do other things that help the party.
Then you make the Fighter better out of combat, that's it. Rangers are usually more popular than fighters because of that. It's my favorite warrior class from the basic 11.
I was always fond of spells like Web combo'd with Clouds of Bewilderment... with Reflex and Fortitude saves, at least someone's gonna get screwed by it... :D
Yep, it's a very annoying combo, unless the Party Wizard cast an area Dispel Magic. I preffer acting as a Sinper/Blaster (in that order)
The wizard and beguiler in our group did a Slapping Hand combo with a beguiler spell whose name slips my mind. Basically he cast some illusionary wraiths that filled all the squares surrounding the target. If the target provoked an AOA then all the wraiths would attack. The Slapping Hand automatically made the target provoke an AOA though. Against large and huge creatures that was alot of potential damage and this was at level 6 or 5 I think. I just know it killed or softedned up a few encounters for us.
And that's fine by me. If my players came with a combo like that I would congratulate them and then I would change tactics, expecting that my players could adapt. Some time latter I would throw them another encounter when an old tactic of them would be effective to see if they remember it.
The Eldritch Knight of my group got a double Natural 20 with a Greataxe and dished over 50 HP damage to a drow (basicaly he lifted the drow with the strike, cleaved him in half and stamped his remains inside a wall)
This is the second time you've mentioned 50 damage as if it's a great milestone. An effective melee character is doing 50 damage minimum. A simply built character of my friend does more damage than that, and can fly at 6th, without any spellcasting classes. It's also relatively simple to build a "fighter" that could tear apart any wizard you put against him. These things do not make the game balanced however. This does not change that without errata, a single druid should be able to eliminate an equal level iconic party (fighter, cleric, thief, wizard) if he is properly build.
This is the second time you've mentioned 50 damage as if it's a great milestone. An effective melee character is doing 50 damage minimum. A simply built character of my friend does more damage than that, and can fly at 6th, without any spellcasting classes. It's also relatively simple to build a "fighter" that could tear apart any wizard you put against him. These things do not make the game balanced however. This does not change that without errata, a single druid should be able to eliminate an equal level iconic party (fighter, cleric, thief, wizard) if he is properly build.
The difference my friend, is that this character isn't built for big damage numbers (it doesn't even has any Weapon Focus Feat so he has only the most basic proficiency in Greataxes, it's just one he found during the adventure to replace his falchion, destroyed by a Black Pudding, and it's just a Spellstoring Greataxe +1).
The Fighter/Champion of Corellon Larethian on the other hand deals a lot more of damage in a single attack and he can make his full attack in a charge thanks to a combo we developed. He is very invested in Longsword, and as part of the story he got the Ary'Velarh'Kerym (the Warblade).
See? The caster could have killed that pudding from afar and been done with it. ;)
But that's one of the character quirks, he always charges ahead without waiting for a plan. That got him inside two Purple Worms, grappled by the Black Pudding, almost dead by a Vorpal Sword of a Balor... And he has the greatest unluck when it comes for missing arrows, every single one of them hits him :D
He's like the hero who always gets in the greatest trouble but always comes on top.
I hope the multiclassing helps me do the wizard that can melee when he needs to from time to time. I think Ice spells might be my deal if they do slow down targets, though I was toying with the idea of acid if I go with my one concept. So many questions until June is here.
Hard to be The Archmage when you don't have access to Complete Mage and/or Complete Arcane... :P
-The Archmage PrC is in the FRCS, and (I think), in the 3.5 DMG.
This is the second time you've mentioned 50 damage as if it's a great milestone.
-I originally mentioned it, as that is the threshold for the check for instant death. As it goes, 50 points, where I come from, is A LOT of damage, even at higher levels, for a single melee attack. If you have some kind of ingenious way to maximize damage like this, please share. I, coincidentally, have a melee character half made up (Fighter 4 / Wizard 3 / Spellsword 5), and haven't finalized things, so if you can give me a way to make him d0 50+ points of damage in a single attack, I am all ears.
Indeed it is... however, missing all those nifty spells and feats and such is going to be a hinderance to being THE Archmage, rather than just A Archmage. ;) :D
Ironicaly Sniper/Blaster wizards are the most benefited by becoming Archmages, thanks to Mastery of Elements and Mastery of Shape.
-I originally mentioned it, as that is the threshold for the check for instant death. As it goes, 50 points, where I come from, is A LOT of damage, even at higher levels, for a single melee attack. If you have some kind of ingenious way to maximize damage like this, please share. I, coincidentally, have a melee character half made up (Fighter 4 / Wizard 3 / Spellsword 5), and haven't finalized things, so if you can give me a way to make him d0 50+ points of damage in a single attack, I am all ears.
Swashbuckler/Champion of Corellon Larethian with an Elven Courtblade to begin with. The CoCL has a Class Feature that allows the character to add his DEX Mod to damage and the Swashbuckler has the same but for INT. Take Improved Critical for the Courtblade and have a nice magical Courtblade (Spellstoring is a nice option, it's a killer with Disintegrate charged, just ask one of my players who always asks Alediran to Store a Disintegrate on it :D)
-Archmage is the best PrC for a pure Wizard, because of Mastery of Shape and Mastery of Elements.
Elemental Savant (air) is very good either.
With the 10 levels you get: +2 DC for Electrical Spells, +4 for caster levels to pierce SR with Electrical Spells, Immunity to Critical Hits (which gives immunity to Sneak Attack and Vorpal Weapons), immunity to paralysis, stunning, Spells and effects with the Electric descriptor (without becoming weaker for Acid Spells and you can still cast Energy Immunity to yourself), Sleep effects (good if you aren't an elf), darkvision, fly 100ft with perfect maneuverability. No need to Sleep, Eat or Breath, which means the Elemental Planes are just a walk in the park for you (you can fly naturaly, you can cast Xorn Movement to move in the Plane of Earth, Energy Immunity (fire) in the Fire Plane and you don't drown in the Water Plane).
The only downside is that you are forced to cast all energy spells as Electricity, but Mastery of Elements from the Archmage solves that problem (Alediran has all the requirements needed to become an Archmage in the next level and currently is Wizard 5/Elemental Savant (air) 10).
Elemental Savant (air) is very good either.
-It still pales in comparison. :P
-It still pales in comparison. :P
I forgot to mention that you get Air Mastery, the Slam attack and the Whirlwind attack of Air Elementals (nice way of opening spaces in the enemy lines :D)
I was going to add-in the Shou Diciple eventually, so I could use the Swashbuckling Rapier with the Monk flurry. :D
That should have given me the damage as well.
I had one a DMPC that had levels of Monk, Swashbuckler and Duelist (3.0, not 3.5), so he got AC reductions from all three, making him preactically un-hittable by anything his level. He didn't do much damage, but he kept the baddies busy while the rest of the party slaughtered them (which is a DMPCs job - to NOT do the killing for the party).
I was going to add-in the Shou Diciple eventually, so I could use the Swashbuckling Rapier with the Monk flurry. :D
That should have given me the damage as well.
-That doesn't sound possible. Monks need to be Lawful, and Swashbucklers need to be Chaotic, do they not? And, that's just the beginning...
Swashbucklers can be any alignment. I'm playing a LG Swashbuckler of Torm.
-Duelists, then? I know there is some class/PrC like that where the character needs to be Chaotic. I know this because my sister was just making up a character for a campaign we are going to be playing in, and she had to change her character's alignment from NG to CG (and, she wasn't particularly thrilled, for whatever reason), because of it.
Edit: There are Prestige Classes that require you to be chaotic but they tend to be either meant for barbarians, or have a religious component to the class. Oddly enough, some of the most chaotic seeming rogue type classes, have no alignment requirement whatsoever.