Help me out, scribes?
Also, if there isn't a firm 4e ruling on what the scrolls do in this mechanical toolset, go ahead and speculate (though mark it as such, so folks don't take it as established canon).
Cheers
As far as I know there is nothing 4E specific regarding the Nether Scrolls. Just as an off-handed thought, I'd say: "They don't work because the Weave is no more..." However, I think there can be some wiggle room - but more on that in a moment.
For the best Nether Scroll information you're going to want to consult Netheril: Empire of Magic page 140. Outside of that there is a smattering of lore here and there throughout numerous source books. Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, Magic of Faerûn, etc.
The basic run down is this:
The Nether Scrolls were created by the Sarrukh, which were forged from the Golden Scales of the World Serpent.
There are 50 Scrolls in total, one set older than the other, which appear to be sheets of gold or platinum metal. However, there is only one set of the scrolls floating around because the other set was taken by the Elves and transformed into the Quess'Ar'Teranthvar (The Golden Grove of Hidden Knowledge). This can be learned about in the Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves source book, which is why I referenced it.
The Scrolls are technically indestructible, and will reform themselves after any such attempt. Even the creator of the Quess'Ar'Teranthvar, the High Mage Known as Tyvollus Aluviirsan (who still technically lives), if slain will cause the golden tree to become molten metal - only to some years later transform back into the Nether Scrolls.
In any event, when looking at the scrolls arcane runes float about the surface. As you read and begin to understand what you're learning, the arcane runes change and new knowledge and information is provided.
The scrolls are divided into five sections, ten scrolls each. They are as follows:
Arcanus Fundare which teaches the basics of spell casting, including all knowledge of spell components, various magical schools, etc.
Magicus Creare which details the basic construction of magical items, though it hints at much more possible than what is being taught.
Maior Creare which are known as the Creation Scrolls. They detail the process of creating magical constructs, such as golems, living and sentient wards, properties of antimagic, and ways to both create and destroy dead-magic areas.
Planus Mechanicus was all about the planes. It taught the different planes of existence, how they were connected to each other, how to create pocket planes, etc.
Ars Factum was the final set of Nether Scrolls which detailed how to create magical artifacts from scratch.
All the above being said... Like I said in my first paragraph there may be some wiggle room. While the Weave is gone and the Nether Scrolls specifically taught Weave based magic, the wiggle room is this: The information you gleaned as you read the scrolls changed as you learned. Thus, it could be entirely possible that the Nether Scrolls would have a way to keep themselves up-to-date. Perhaps they act as magical repositories of arcane knowledge. If you wanted them to work in your campaign, I'd say that anyone reading them would be studying ancient traditions that they never heard of before... it would seem entirely counter-intuitive to the way they've learned to use magic. Yet, as they studied and progressed, new knowledge began to be revealed to them. Suddenly, the old and new knowledge begins to make sense - the reader begins to see connections. Things just start to click.
I'd say to be able to understand how to use the Nether Scrolls they're going to at least need some from Arcanus Fundare. That will teach them the ancient traditions, as well as help them see the connections between the old and new way of doing things. From there the others would just add to their knowledge, but I'd also say that Maior Creare would have information on the Spellplague. More directly, how to create and destroy plaguechanged lands, and how to control plaguechanged creatures. As well as all knowledge on Spellscars – how to create them, how to remove them, and how to get the powers you want from them.
EDITED: For mechanical knowledge, it depends on which of the scrolls they've read. As a general rule to any of the players who've read the scrolls, I'd tell them to make a note of it on their character sheets. Based upon the knowledge they've gained I'd tell them that anytime they encounter something like - say plaguechanged creatures - remind me. I'd then determine a rough bonus to their skills in the situation based upon what their character learned, which would also be determined by how long they've studied the scroll. For the most part studying the scrolls would only benefit arcane magic using classes.
I however disagree with them being weave dependent.
I think the scrolls atleast in myopinion takes what the reader knows as fact, and at the time up til the sepll plague, all arcanists new was, Mystra is the Weave, the weave is life, the weave is infact what allows magic to be used. it is a driving force amongst the realms, it guides us and binds us. the strongest force in the realms....
So with the weave destroyed, the mages of 4e (and thus essentials as well) know that the arcane power source and that it now replaces the weave and that it is gone. how to use the scrolls now, can't say in that department as mind you, I dislike a few things about the arcanists of 4e and how they opperate, but thats me.
how the creation scrolls should work, couldn't tell you that either.
I gravely dislike how they were done in 4e anyway, I like to combine enchanments in 3.x. we can't do that in 4e/essentials.
Just to defend my point on the Nether Scrolls being Weave-based magic... I do think there is some wiggle room, and if I wanted to use the Scrolls I'd exploit this wiggle room. On the other hand, strictly from a logical perspective based on what we know - they're talking about the Weave, not arcane power sources.
You can paper over that by claiming that the Weave was just a more efficient way of channeling the power sources, which during the time of Netheril and beyond was known as "Raw Magic", but that it is a minor retcon of sorts. (Which is more or less what I was suggesting in my previous post.)
The Scrolls -clearly- did not talk about the other non-Weave based magic types found within the Realms, such as the Rune Magic of the Dwarves, or the Pluma and Hishna magic of Maztica. This is why I think it's a logical conclusion to draw that the scrolls exclusively focused on Weave-based magic.
There are likely hundreds of minor magical traditions throughout the Realms that utilized non-Weave based magic. They seem to have generally been the result of some type of divine or spiritual power source, but generally were not restricted to priests or clergy. In the case of Pluma and Hishna magic in Maztica they drew their power from the deities Qotal and Zaltec respectively.
The Maztican Campaign Guide makes clear: "Neither type can be categorized purely in the magic sense of the rest of the Forgotten Realms, for they are neither purely sorcerous, nor purely clerical, in nature. ... There are no true magic users in Maztican society, yet the practice of these forms reaches its highest levels in the works of artisans, not priests."
To go even further Maztican Magic is very similar to 4E Magic when it comes to rituals. Quote: "The spells of Maztican magic resemble some of the powers of typical mages and clerics, yet there are many differences. For one thing, the casting times tend to be longer with Maztican magic. ... The casting of a Maztican magic spell more often involves a ritual than a quick gesture or command."
And just to avoid the possibility of someone trying to compare Maztican Magic to something more akin to divine magic due to the involvement of Maztican deities - allow me to point out that Weave-based magic was also deity centric - involving Mystra. Since it was not linked directly to the priests and clergy, it is more akin to these deities creating a proto-Weave.
All of this is important because of how it relates to the Nether Scrolls. The Scrolls clearly did not touch upon these other magical traditions. However, cannon clearly states that when the Sarrukh created the Nether Scrolls they were creating a compilation of a number of different magical traditions. These traditions were likely similar to those that we saw in Maztica.
I got the sense the Nether Scrolls were talking about a particular sort of magic that was in use on the main continent by a great many individuals, and they just weren't so complete that they included all different sorts of magic.
Also, I was under the impression that *all* magic utilized the weave, whether arcane, divine, etc., except Shadow Weave magic, which utilized its own version of the Weave. Is this not true?
I suppose I conceive of the purpose of the weave as being an efficiency tool--or, more accurately, Mystra/the Weave was a "middle-man" of sorts, that now (in 4e) no longer exists, allowing people to access all of it at the source. Basically, Mystra was a big powerful wizard who understood the fundaments of magic and translated them into a palatable/easy form for wizards/arcanists to use. Now, with Mystra gone, the onus is on mortal spellcasters to take that step themselves.
If the Scrolls are at least partly about the fundamentals of magic and raw power, then at least those parts will still work. The parts about the Weave (that is, assuming the scrolls haven't updated themselves) are just moot, since the Weave doesn't exist. A wizard should still be able to glean lots of important information from them.
Here's another idea: maybe part of the scrolls that never really made sense (about tapping into raw magic) now DOES make sense, because Mystra isn't around to do all that for mortals?
Cheers
As for mechanical benefits, Id give them a bonus to Arcana, or maybe the ability to cast rituals at half cost or something like that.
What I was thinking of doing mechanically was granting the character a permanent +2 to Arcana checks relating to arcane magic and giving the character the Arcane Initiate feat for free.
That doesn't seem much in the way of rule-breaking.
Cheers
I'm not sure if I'll be able to answer everything, but I'll try my best. Most of this is opinion and suggestion, though I'll try and use cannon sources to back it up.
Let's start by getting on the same page. Here is what the FRCS states about the Weave:
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"Mortals cannot directly shape raw magic. Instead, most who wield magic make use of the Weave. The Weave is the manifestation of raw magic, a kind of interface between the will of a spellcaster and the stuff of raw magic. Without the Weave, raw magic is locked away and inaccessible - an archmage can't light a candle in a dead magic zone. But, surrounded by the Weave, a spellcaster can shape lightning to blast her foes, transport herself hundreds of miles in the blink of an eye, even reverse death itself. All spells, magic items, spell-like abilities, and even supernatural abilities such as a ghost's ability to walk through walls, depend on the Weave and call upon it in different ways.
The exact nature of the Weave is elusive because it is many things simultaneously. The Weave is the body of Mystra, the goddess of magic. Mystra has dominion over magic worked throughout Toril, but she cannot shut off the flow of magic altogether without ceasing to exist herself. The Weave is the conduit spellcasters use to channel magical energy for their spells, both arcane and divine. Finally, the Weave is the fabric of esoteric rules and formulas that comprises the Art (arcane spellcasting) and the Power (divine spellcasting). Everything from the texts of arcane spellbooks to the individual components of spells is part of the Weave. Magic not only flows from source to spellcaster through the Weave, the Weave gives spellcasters the tools they need to shape magic to their purposes."
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Reading the above creates some continuity problems. Since the Weave is destroyed in 4E based upon previous lore magic should simply cease to exist. Yet, in the Year of Blue Fire according to the Grand History of the Realms: "Without Mystra to govern the Weave, magic bursts its bonds all across Faerûn and the surrounding planes and runs wild."
Also quoting the FRCG: "This popular theory holds that magic was bound so long in Mystra’s Weave that, when the goddess died, it spontaneously and ruinously burst its bonds."
And another quote from the FRCG: "For eons, magic in Toril was focused through the Weave, controlled by the goddess Mystra. Although Netherese wizards of ancient days learned the truth, most people believed that magic would not be possible without the deity’s existence. However, the death of Mystra gave the lie to that belief. Now the term "Weave" is just another name for magic, if it is used at all."
The FRCG comes forward and blatantly states that Mystra was a liar, that she quite literally prevented mortals from accessing raw magic directly. On the other hand, that doesn't make much sense because of the little problem of dead magic zones in previous editions.
Quoting the FRCS: "In some areas of Toril, the Weave is absent altogether. The Weave has a tear or hole, and the area effected has no magic at all. Like the rare wild magic zones, many regions of dead magic were created during the Time of Troubles and have since faded or retreated. Dead magic zones often persist in places where extreme concentrations of magical power were abruptly scattered or destroyed - in the vicinity of a shattered mythal, at the spot where an artifact was broken, or at the scene of a god's death."
It would seem to me if the Weave was basically Mystra's block on access to raw magic, the truth would have been easily discovered by entering the Dead Magic Zones. In fact we should have seen something roughly akin to the Spellplague in these zones in previous editions.
None of this is neat or tidy. So to clean it up, I'd say the following: What we once thought of as raw magic is what is now known as arcane power sources. Dead Magic Zones were wounds within the Weave, but not the total absence of the Weave, functioning similarly to antimagic zones. According to the FRCS: "Spells such as an antimagic field rearrange the Weave so that magic flows around, rather than through, the area affected by the spell." The FRCS also stated these Dead Magic Zones had a tendency to heal themselves over time - like a wound. Thus, when a catastrophe happened and a DMZ was created, one might think of it as a self-defense mechanism in the Weave. Rather than being destroyed, it simply created an antimagic field, causing magic to flow around the effected area until it had time to heal. Using this explanation explains why no one figured out Mystra's cover-up of the truth and no Spellplague-like effects began to seep into DMZ's.
Next, we are faced with the problem of the Shadow Weave. This is tricky because the Shadow Weave was retconned to death endlessly. However, the final explanation rests within the FRCG which states: "Just as Mystra controlled the Weave, the goddess Shar created and maintained the Shadow Weave as an alternative conduit to magic."
It clearly states that Shar created and maintained the Shadow Weave. This proves that deities could create alternative ways to access power sources / raw magic.
Based upon discussions, and if I'm not mistaken explicitly stated in the final part of the 3E adventure trilogy called "Anauroch: The Empire of Shade" (which I do not have access to): The Nether Scrolls were created in Oreme by the Sarrukh. The Sarrukh ruled a vast empire, and they sought to gather all magical knowledge from its borders into a single location in an attempt to consolidate their arcane power. That effort spawned a secret society. That secret society included magical traditions from the Batrachi and Aearee. It also included magical traditions from two other creator races, though according to the FR Wiki not the humans or the fey.
Since various magic traditions existed and the Sarrukh set out to combine all these magical traditions into a single unified understanding of magic (leading to the creation of the Nether Scrolls)... taking into account that Shar has proven that other deities can create proto-Weaves to access raw magic / arcane power sources... taking into account what we know about Maztican Magic... that at least some of these early magical traditions could have had their own proto-Weaves.
Look at it this way: It depends on if you decide that creation myth of Shar and Selune is true or merely a myth. We know that various groups had their own creation myths - such as the one involving the World Serpent. We know that Selune and Shar were Netherese deities as was Mystryl. Over time there has been an effort to design a single creation myth and pass it off as less of a myth and more of "this is the way it really happened."
What if instead we viewed it as just a myth. Shar, Selune, and Mystryl were Netherese deities. The Netherese had their own creation story. Over time, after the collapse of the Empire of Netheril, this creation story and their method of using magic spread throughout the rest of Faerûn. These things became accepted as fact.
Yet, before Netheril and Mystra there were many traditions of magic. Different cultures and species had their own deities, some of which had their own proto-Weaves. Just like as perhaps what was taking place in Maztica. The Sarrukh studied these cultures and their proto-Weave magical traditions. They then compiled the Nether Scrolls. Perhaps the Sarrukh had their own deity who had a proto-Weave, which is why they gravitated toward other magical traditions that were similar to their own - leaving out the fey and humans.
Perhaps, for the early Elves Corellon utilized his own proto-Weave which allowed use of things like high magic. Later, when Mystra came along they colluded together to first protect High Elven Magic, and second to combine their efforts. Basically, ensuring that Elves moved over safely to the Weave, and second, that they could access Corellon's high magic Weave from Mystra's Weave. This ensured that they were not brought into conflict as rival deities of magic due to the issue of spheres of influence as mandated by Ao. (No deity over demigod could hold the same portfolio as another deity within the same sphere of influence.)
Perhaps the early Mystryl had her own proto-Weave. When the Netherese discovered the Nether Scrolls the knowledge obtained from the scrolls also empowered Mystryl (giving her more knowledge), allowing her to modify her proto-Weave accordingly to suit the needs of her followers.
After the fall of Netheril, the worship of Mystra (formerly Mystryl) spread throughout Faerûn, and as this happened so did the use of the Weave. The Weave was superior to the various proto-Weaves, and as a result conversion rates were high. The superiority of the Weave can easily be seen in how Weave based magic is handled vs Maztican Magic. It utterly and completely dominated it.
As Mystra's Weave spread she merely incorporated new aspects into her Weave to counter rival Weaves, ensuring their arcane spellcasters easy conversion to her Weave. After a few hundred years, the proto-Mystra Weave traditions were forgotten and abandoned in Faerûn (but not elsewhere where Mystra's worship had not yet spread). This gave Mystra an iron grip hold over all magic in Faerûn.
Due to the spheres of influence mandated by Ao and Mystra's massive power - few in the Faerûnian Pantheon could challenge her dominance over magic. Except for Shar who created the Shadow Weave, though was always careful to keep it somewhat low key so she was never brought in DIRECT confrontation with Mystra. She used Cyric for that, obviously, then failed to seize control over the Weave after Mystra's death.
The Spellplague happened as a result of the theory that the FRCG puts forward: "This popular theory holds that magic was bound so long in Mystra’s Weave that, when the goddess died, it spontaneously and ruinously burst its bonds."
Basically, the Spellplague didn't happen during the fall of Netheril because Mystryl's Weave was limited to a smaller sphere of influence - the Netherese Empire. As well it was clear that Mystryl took steps to ensure her resurrection into Mystra. The Weave only winked out of existence for a few seconds or a few minutes. Not hours, days, or weeks.
When Mystra died in the Year of Blue Fire, the Weave had extended over huge swaths of Toril due to migration, trade, various aliases that Mystra was worshiped under in other lands, etc. The end result was people drawing upon its power constantly, and when Mystra died all the power that was being drawn "burst from its bonds."
Look at things as well from the perspective of the Imaskari. They had the ability to literally shut out deities. Their empire was around BEFORE Netheril thus pre-Mystra's Weave expansion days. Perhaps they learned to tap into raw magic / arcane power sources. Since that had no divine block from accessing magic, they merely were able to then use that power to block out deities.
Finally, as this has gotten so long, there is one more important thing to address. I think the out of game reason for the Weave being the main access to magic was mechanical. Had there been multiple magical traditions, similar to that in Maztica, there would have had to be multiple rule sets for accessing and using that magic. Thus we ended up with One Weave to rule them all, One Weave to find them, One Weave to bring them all and in Mystra bind them.
In DC comics, the magic system in the DC universe operated under rules set by the Lords of Order and Chaos, each Lord representing a certain aspect of magic. And there were magical reset buttons, cataclysms, that reshaped the laws of magic itself. DC's Day of Vengeance series (Infinite Crisis prologue) heralded the Ninth Age of Magic when the Spectre went on a crazed rampage and killed most of the "gods" of magic.
I see the Spellplague as such an event. It tore the Weave apart and realigned planes, wiping the slate clean the old laws of magic. The Scrolls could be that slate, upon which new rules are being written as various mortals are adapting to post-Spellplague magic. The Scrolls coule still be a set of 5, 10 sheets each, but with each set adapted to the new system.
my edits in bold...
Arcanus Fundare which teaches the basics of spell casting, including all knowledge of spells thru the tiers with at-wills/encounters/dailies, essential's schools of magic, etc.Magicus Creare which details the basic construction of magical items, though it hints at much more possible than what is being taught. [Dis]Enchant magic item, Transfer Enchantment, and other creation rituals that deal with items.
Maior Creare which are known as the Creation Scrolls. They detail the process of creating magical constructs, such as golems, living and sentient wards, properties of antimagic, and ways to both create and destroy dead-magic areas. Warding, restoration, and exploration rituals (Purge Spellplague, etc). Also includes summoning/conjuration spells.
Planus Mechanicus was all about the planes. It taught the different planes of existence, how they were connected to each other, how to create pocket planes, etc. Travel and exploration rituals, and divinations that deal with extraplanar entities. Could include the Planeshifter paragon class and the Planeshaper/Demiurge epic destinies.
Ars Factum was the final set of Nether Scrolls which detailed how to create magical artifacts from scratch. Epic tier rituals such as Raise Land
The whole 50 Scrolls would make one artifact spellbook, with each 5th being its own spellbook when scattered. Individual Scrolls could be have the Blessed Book property, with rituals and spells already written within, just not yet accessible until the requirements are met. Maybe use artifact
Karsus failed because he wasn't able to repair continuosly the weave as Mystryl did. That damage to the weave was caused by the intense use of magic made by archwizards and phaerrims (who had acces to nether scrolls too) in their centuries long struggle.
Then it seems pretty obvious that the scrolls are somehow related to the weave, and through them readers have the possibility to obtain acces to spell higher than 9th level. Proper 10th or 13th level spell, not simply lower level spell with metamagic feats applied, or epic spells, or elven high magic.
Other than 3.5th and 4th ed. forgotten realms sourcebooks, it's really useful "Netheril, Empire of Magic", an old AD&D book which explains really well how magic, Karsus heavy magic and the scrolls worked at the times of the Netheril Empire before the fall.
Sounds like a lot of useless lore in this new 4th edition pseudo-magic, doesn't it?
Through them readers have the possibility to obtain acces to spell higher than 9th level. Proper 10th or 13th level spell.
Which is the kind of magic that the newly reborn Mystra has forbidden to mortals since her birth, in order to prevent the tearing of the weave that netherse arcanists and phaerrims had done until that day.
The Nether Scrolls ARE about weave magic. I state this because of what it is said about Karsus folly:
Karsus failed because he wasn't able to repair continuosly the weave as Mystryl did. That damage to the weave was caused by the intense use of magic made by archwizards and phaerrims (who had acces to nether scrolls too) in their centuries long struggle.
Then it seems pretty obvious that the scrolls are somehow related to the weave
Hmm, I don't follow the logic here.
These two statements . . .
1) The phaerimm were causing damage to the Weave, which Karsus was unable to repair.
2) The phaerimm had access to the Nether Scrolls.
. . . don't really lead to the conclusion . . .
3) The Nether Scrolls are Weave-based.
If anything, you'd think that Karsus being such a "Weave Master" (thanks to the Nether Scrolls) means that he *could* have done the needed repair work, but alas.
I'm not saying you're wrong--the Nether Scrolls might indeed be limited to Weave-based magic and thus useless without the weave--I'm just saying this logic doesn't follow.
Sounds like a lot of useless lore in this new 4th edition pseudo-magic, doesn't it?
Oh I don't know, I think all lore is useful! I have been using old 2e and 3x sources in my game all along.
Cheers
My own gut reaction is that they're more of a curiosity of interest to scholars and historians more than they would be to mages, at least once the world figured out that they were based on a set of conditions that no longer exist or function. Up until then, I'd guess mages would still play whack-a-mole with each other in order to get their hands on them, in the vain hopes of gaining some advantage over their peers. Which I think could be fun in and of itself in a lot of respects, playing up just how willing to kill some would be to get something that's ultimately useless to them... the irony of it could be delicious I think.
So basically, it looks like there are two main routes to go, based on what I want the canon to be in my campaign:
1) The scrolls are based on a system that no longer applies, so they don't do anything (or their power is substantially reduced)
2) The scrolls still function and grant power
I think I've got enough to do #1, so going forward, let's assume that I'm interested in #2.
Question: If the Scrolls *do* still function, what would you make their function be?
Also, if the PCs only have one scroll, what difference would that make? What if they find more?
Opinions/ideas most welcome!
Cheers
So in my 4e FR game, the heroes have stumbled upon one of the famous Nether Scrolls. And here I am skulking about for lore I might not have regarding the scrolls--any 4e-specific lore, as well as references in earlier lore. Help me out, scribes? Also, if there isn't a firm 4e ruling on what the scrolls do in this mechanical toolset, go ahead and speculate (though mark it as such, so folks don't take it as established canon). Cheers
there isn't one ERik, even the moonblades are NDAd and we wont find out until 2012.
the golem scroll could allow for creation of golems at 25% stronger
the weapon crafter can allow for enchanting of weapons at the enxt avoe lvl
the others not sure on, save maybe grant an extra utility slot or a bonus ritual
Question: If the Scrolls *do* still function, what would you make their function be?Also, if the PCs only have one scroll, what difference would that make? What if they find more?
Well it depends on how closely you want to hue to cannon. As I said in my first post in the thread the scrolls are divided up into five sections with ten scrolls each. If you're trying to stick close to cannon you first need to decide which scroll they have in their possession.
So, basically here is what I would do. First, I'd determine exactly how much knowledge can be gleaned from the scrolls which could then be applied to the new system.
Arcanus Fundar taught the basics of spell casting, including all knowledge of spell components, various magical schools, etc. Under the new system a wizard with a single scroll would better understand that it could potentially be possible to create their own rituals. Through careful study they will realize that some knowledge is transferable. However, it should be absolutely clear that their knowledge is incomplete. As a DM I'd say each scroll would allow the PC to create a ritual equal to 1/10th of their level, with a minimum of first level ritual creation. If they collect all ten scrolls they'd have the ability to create rituals equal to their level. Obviously, the DM would have final say on all rituals. To create a ritual the player would design the ritual they want, put it down on paper, and pass it to the DM. You'd look over it, make any adjustments necessary, and then have the player roll an arcana check. Depending on their roll you'd modify the ritual accordingly. Maybe it works correctly, but it is unstable to a minor degree causing a potential backfire to happen if the PC fails the proper checks during the casting of the ritual. I'd keep that knowledge secret from the player, the character should assume their ritual was a success until they've had a chance to test it. As an additional non-ritual related bonus I'd provide situational arcana check bonuses to the die rolls of the PC whose read the scrolls.
Magicus Creare taught the basic construction of magical items, though it hints at much more possible than what is being taught. Here I would do exactly the same as above for rituals, but instead allow the creation of magical items. One scroll allows a player to create magical items 1/10th of their level. As a general guideline I'd use the purchasing prices in the player's handbook to determine the component cost of creating the item.
Maior Creare are known as the Creation Scrolls. They detail the process of creating magical constructs, such as golems, living and sentient wards, properties of antimagic, and ways to both create and destroy dead-magic areas. Here I would treat golems as magical items though I'd double the cost of magical item creation. As well these scrolls would provide the player with some theoretical knowledge on plague touched, spell scars, and plague lands. However, this knowledge would require extensive extermination to test out theories.
Planus Mechanicus taught the different planes of existence, how they were connected to each other, how to create pocket planes, etc. Much of this knowledge here would be historical in nature, though the player would be able to develop some theories. If the player collected all ten and studied them extensively I'd allow the player to create a pocket plane.
Ars Factum was the final set of Nether Scrolls which detailed how to create magical artifacts from scratch. Basically the same as the others, though I'd shy away from giving this to the player. Even the most minor of artifact would require at least three scrolls. If all ten are collected I'd allow the player to create something on the scale of a mythallar. Obviously, it wouldn't be without danger, and I'd make it clear that things would be much easier if they also collected all ten of the Maior Creare scrolls.
In the end, I'd make it very clear that you'd have full veto power over ALL suggested uses of the scrolls. As an added bonus I'd frequently provide a situational bonus to the arcana and history skill checks when I feel appropriate. The more scrolls collected, the greater the bonus, and the more numerous the situations in which they'd apply.
If the players somehow managed to collect the full set - all fifty - I'd allow the players to construct a new set of Nether Scrolls specifically designed to focus on the new power sources. At that point I'd just assume that the designer of such a new set of scrolls would be (literally) the most knowledgeable arcanist in all of Toril.
That is how I'd handle the Nether Scrolls falling into the hands of the PC's if I wanted them to be useful.
The Nether Scrolls ARE about weave magic. I state this because of what it is said about Karsus folly: Karsus failed because he wasn't able to repair continuosly the weave as Mystryl did. That damage to the weave was caused by the intense use of magic made by archwizards and phaerrims (who had acces to nether scrolls too) in their centuries long struggle. Then it seems pretty obvious that the scrolls are somehow related to the weave
Hmm, I don't follow the logic here. These two statements . . . 1) The phaerimm were causing damage to the Weave, which Karsus was unable to repair. 2) The phaerimm had access to the Nether Scrolls. . . . don't really lead to the conclusion . . . 3) The Nether Scrolls are Weave-based. If anything, you'd think that Karsus being such a "Weave Master" (thanks to the Nether Scrolls) means that he *could* have done the needed repair work, but alas. I'm not saying you're wrong--the Nether Scrolls might indeed be limited to Weave-based magic and thus useless without the weave--I'm just saying this logic doesn't follow.Sounds like a lot of useless lore in this new 4th edition pseudo-magic, doesn't it?
Oh I don't know, I think all lore is useful! I have been using old 2e and 3x sources in my game all along. Cheers
You have to apologize me, I hade some hard time trying to make my point since english is not my mother language...
What I meant is indeed logic, but I'll try to explain a little better here.
Old netheril obtained vast knowledge about magic from the nether scrolls, as we all know. When they found the scrolls they gave up learning elven magic from Earlann, and started developing their own. Mythallar, quasi-magic items, etc.
At some point in their history, I don't remember who, gave the same knowledge to a phaerrim in disguise, fact that eventually led to the war between those abominations and the empire. The extensive use of magic through potent enchantments made by both the phaerrims and the empire caused structural damage to the weave, which Mystryl had to repair continously.
Karsus, on the other hand was not able to make those repairs himself, and this misplaced selfconfidence ruined the entire empire.
When Mystra was born, she reshaped the use of magic to prevent magic users from compromising the weave again. In other words, spells over 9th level were no longer possible.
Now, and to me it seems pretty obvious, the nether scrolls contained knowledge so powerful that using it, through spells of such level, caused serious damage to the weave. Damage that had to be undone and that, eventually, had to be completely avoided by not allowing anymore those high level spells.
The power of a 12th level spell was so high that could compromise its source, the weave.
This is the reason why I think that the scrolls are about the weave.
Question: If the Scrolls *do* still function, what would you make their function be? Also, if the PCs only have one scroll, what difference would that make? What if they find more? Opinions/ideas most welcome! Cheers
Probably the same thing they were in 3e, adapted to 4e's magic system, of course. How that translates, I really couldn't say, as I've not invested in 4e at all. Presuming they're based on some universal truth, rather than the Weave, I don't really see a compelling reason to change the way they worked previously too much, beyond mechanical variance between the systems. Which I'm really not qualified to speak to, as I said.
As to just having one, I'd say the overall effect was negligible (read non-existent mechanically speaking) when it came to receiving a bonus related to the scroll's subject. Previously, unless you read the entire set, there was no bonus beyond receiving enough xp to get you to the next level if you completed reading a single scroll... which took a month or so as I recall, though I'm not certain of that time period. While that worked fine in 2e, it was a wonky mechanic in 3e, and I'd guess would be about the same in 4e. Maybe a base X number of XP per scroll, with diminishing returns setting in as you get higher in level and it takes more and more scrolls to make a difference. As to how much, that very much depends on the DM and how tightly (or not) they want to control the pace of PCs levelling.
This is the reason why I think that the scrolls are about the weave.
But the Weave is no more in 4th Edition Forgotten Realms. It has been completely obliterated upon Mystra's death. Now, the choices for the Nether Scrolls' purpose could be as a set of defunct and useless artifacts, adapt to the new magic system, or cling to the old lore with limited power. As always, it is up to the DM.
I think Meldread and I said it best in our posts. The Nether Scrolls can represent the new age of magic in FR by revealing and teaching the new "rules" to aspiring arcanists. I've always thought the fundamental nature of magic is about change. Like the universe (and worlds) it encompasses, it is ever evolving.
Honestly, I'm glad the Weave (and Mystra) is gone. It acted too much like both crutch and hindrance to spellcasters. I've always seen it as a filter that diluted the raw eldritch energies of the multiverse into a safe and useable form for mortals, as well as a way for a cosmic intelligence to police its use (which btw I find to be restricting and abhorrent). Now, spellcasters everywhere are free to be whatever, do whatever, without some pompous magic smurf smacking their hands if they reached too far.
I think Meldread and I said it best in our posts. The Nether Scrolls can represent the new age of magic in FR by revealing and teaching the new "rules" to aspiring arcanists. I've always thought the fundamental nature of magic is about change. Like the universe (and worlds) it encompasses, it is ever evolving.
Honestly, I'm glad the Weave (and Mystra) is gone. It acted too much like both crutch and hindrance to spellcasters. I've always seen it as a filter that diluted the raw eldritch energies of the multiverse into a safe and useable form for mortals, as well as a way for a cosmic intelligence to police its use (which btw I find to be restricting and abhorrent). Now, spellcasters everywhere are free to be whatever, do whatever, without some pompous magic smurf smacking their hands if they reached too far.
How can they represent the new nature of magic if they were the key to understanding the old fashioned one? It's true the knowledge contained in them was almost unlimited, but nonetheless bound to a precisely structured magic. Maybe (in game terms) they can still give a few hints about some powers or whatever, but I really can't see how they could fit into the new magic...
And, besides, it's also true that now there is no deity to state how magic should be used, every wizards is bound only to his will when it comes to wield the power of magic but...
it's really more of a filter this new type of magic, when Mystra was alive far more potent spell existed, and when Mystryl ruled the weave they were even more powerful.
Why should there be some God to control the usage of magic now when no wizard could even kill someone with a SINGLE spell?
That magic has lost alot of power over the last 100 years after the Spellplague is a very valid point for actually linking raw (or fundamental) magic to the Nether Scrolls.
They were written as a universal collection of all magic possible during the Age of Dawn by the Ba'etith, a Coiled Cabal like organisation of serpentine (sarruhk, naga and yuan-ti) archmages. Its function was to examine, collect and extrapolate the magic knowledge of the Sarruhk. According to the WorldSerpents religious creation myths their was no god of magic untill during the scaleykinds empires heyday at a cataclysmic event the World-Serpent shattered into a multitude of aspects (which would become the scaley gods that held some sway over magic: some of Shekinesters aspects and Sseth). So the Ba'etith have collected information specifically before the weave based vancian casting system was in prominent use.
The weaves absence means ther is no more diefic management over its distribution of magical energies. The FRCG states that magic has a tendency to flow freely now, but that comes at the price of precision, and ease of use. Thats my explenation for the growth in the lenght of time required to cast rituals and the lack of magic capable of whisking away opposition with a mere flick of the wrist. THe intended energy required needs more active management by the wizard (through the use of his implement) to get to the intended results (i.e. save of die spells can exist but take more than one failed saving throw to achieve results).
Consider the time vancian magic has had to perfect their spells and the amount of time the new ways of spellcasting has had to achieve results its not surprising the dangerously efficient ways of vancian magic don't compare to the tricks of at-will/encounter/daily spells that a 15th century realmsian wizard can use.
The research of magic tends to be time consuming, I think there is a timetable for when the different spells the netherese researched came available. At the start of the magical empires rise they had much fewer spells at their disposal than several hundreds of years later. Under the influence of the nether scrolls they dramatically increased the rate at which they crammed out unique spells, magic items and spellwebs.
I think a country with an affiliated magic academy that manages to get hold of several complete sets of scrolls could unlock their potential to start a magical revolution in 15th century magic, just as the Netherese did during their prime.