So I've been DMing and playing in the Realms since it was 1st edition. Back then when I first started, I didn't know exactly how to play the Zhentarim for best effect, or what orcs near Daggerford really meant for the region. It was utterly and completely new, and all I really knew about it was from Ed's articles in Dragon. But these days I'm pretty fluent in knowing how to present Szass Tam or Sememmon, how Cormyr works, and what goes on in the alleyways of Waterdeep at 3am. I doubt that most of those "little details", which really are the true flavor of the Realms, have changed at all.
Given that, it seems like I'm actually fairly well prepared for 4E as a DM. Certainly, I'm better off than I was when I started with 1st edition. I'll need to know and understand the various changes, of course, but the flavor of a 1479 Realms won't be utterly and completely different than a 1374 Realms or a 1356 Realms (when I first started), and the "new" bits might actually give me the chance to weave in some very new storyline ideas that weren't possible before.
And frankly, if they've simplified the "crunch" such that games flow more smoothly without having a high level battle take 3+ hours (e.g. "did Joe add in -all- of his bonuses for that attack in round four?" ... "yeah, we're still on round four"), then it would take a lot of the sting away. I'm more in it for the roleplaying, the story.
I'm running the last book of the tearing of the weave trilogy (1st pre-made btw)
My PC's are 15th level and a logistical nightmare. It's either a TPK or they kill the monsters in one to two rounds.
easier does not always equate to better, if fact far from it. Besides, as a lore enthusiast, I would think 3E with your knowledge would be easier. At least, easier to come up with hooks and ideas
Well, sure 3.5E will be easier - if they'd kept it, I wouldn't have had to change anything or learn anything. But they have, and my main point was that if 4E reduces the vast amount of time required for high level battles, then there's more time to actually play, to RP and get along with the story. Three hours to orchestrate and carry out a -single- "boss" fight at level 17+ was cumbersome in the extreme, and not much fun for me as a DM or for my players.
Since we're going to have 4E, it's just a fact, why not consider all the positives as well? Sure, I could remain in the camp that focuses on the things I don't like, but why?
Personally, I'd love to use the new system, I just wouldn't use it for the Realms setting, because I can't get past the drastic changes.
*shrug* To each, their own. If you want to play the 4E Realms, then play it.
Personally, I'd love to use the new system, I just wouldn't use it for the Realms setting, because I can't get past the drastic changes.
That's ok, though. No one's required to do anything since it's a game.
That's ok, though. No one's required to do anything since it's a game.
Quite true.
And as I stated in an earlier thread, I think there will be numerous opportunities for Realms Dungeon Masters to take the new that’s coming with 4E and really build on it in a number of different ways.
I must disagree with Therise and Krevon a little bit: Very High Level and Epic Level encounters in 3.5 do take time, but they all aren’t ponderously slow either.
If 4E comes through such that paragon and epic level play move as fast and smooth as heroic level play, then simpler will in fact mean better.
Since we're going to have 4E, it's just a fact, why not consider all the positives as well?
Because there aren't any
Because there aren't any
Just a stubborn ass, aren't you? ;)
Just a stubborn ass, aren't you? ;)
Wow. I didn't know my wife was on these boards too. You want me to take the dog out, hon
Wow. I didn't know my wife was on these boards too. You want me to take the dog out, hon
No, just the garbage, you lazy slob. And when you're done, can you go get me a Venti Mocha Lahtti half-soy with a hint of cinnamon? And if that Barista gives you any crap, just tell him that I won't be depositing my change as a tip anymore.
a Venti Mocha Lahtti half-soy with a hint of cinnamon
never mind. We drink real coffee, must be a fake
Since we're going to have 4E, it's just a fact, why not consider all the positives as well? Sure, I could remain in the camp that focuses on the things I don't like, but why?
I would like to mention why, exactly, I don't plan to use the 4E Realms, just so you know why I'm in the "camp" that I'm in.
The simple truth is, I have an idea of where I would like to take the setting (and my characters), and the direction WotC has been taking the Realms over the past few years simply does not mesh well with that. Even before 4E was announced, I had "officially" decided I didn't like a lot of the new canon developments and decided to "do my own thing", as it were.
So, I'm not gonna say there's nothing positive about the new setting that would work well for some people, or that other people shouldn't use it. I've just decided that it's not my thing. For me, the negatives unfortunately outweigh the positives.
It just seems to me like the responsibility will not be on the DM to ‘know all’ about the Realms in 4E.
Not that that was ever truly the case before, as per the FRCS itself.
For me, the negatives unfortunately outweigh the positives.
Do you weigh against Silver or Coal for this calculation.:P
I agree with you. I have and probably will continue to use my "own" Realms and maybe bits and pieces of the "new" Realms. I will hold off on final judgement though. of course, until I have seen the actual product. I am never hasty in that regard. I never make a final decision until I have researched the relevant facts of the case. Which means, in this case, I have to see the final product first.
never mind. We drink real coffee, must be a fake
And, yet, you're so grumpy...?
For me, the negatives unfortunately outweigh the positives.
And we know this how...?
And we know this how...?
Uhh, the last two pages of the GHotR? The preview articles on this very website? The bits and pieces conveyed to us by actual designers like Rich Baker?
It's true that the finished product isn't out yet, but it's not as if we know nothing about it. If we knew nothing, there wouldn't be nearly the amount of discussion about the topic.
Uhh, the last two pages of the GHotR? The preview articles on this very website? The bits and pieces conveyed to us by actual designers like Rich Baker?
It's true that the finished product isn't out yet, but it's not as if we know nothing about it. If we knew nothing, there wouldn't be nearly the amount of discussion about the topic.
We know enough to get a flavor, which many of us dislike. Thats not to say the entire 4th edition Campaign book will be horrible. But to me I have read enough (straight from the horse's mouth as they say) to make the decision that its not worth following what WoTC is doing with this setting.
Because there aren't any
Well, I can think of at least one positive. ;)
Well, I can think of at least one positive. ;)
Say it.
Well, I can think of at least one positive. ;)
What? they are only publishing 2 horrible books on the 4th edition FR?
We know enough to get a flavor, which many of us dislike. Thats not to say the entire 4th edition Campaign book will be horrible. But to me I have read enough (straight from the horse's mouth as they say) to make the decision that its not worth following what WoTC is doing with this setting.
And we know Mystra (among other deities) is dead. Some Realms fans actually liked Mystra and would prefer her in the setting, myself included.
Not liking the new setting because elements you deeply enjoyed have been deleted is just as valid as being open-minded towards the changes. I can think of one particular fan of Kiaransalee who was turned off (and to my knowledge, left the CK boards) after what happened in book 2 of the Lady Penitent series.
Say it.
I would, but I'm approaching my Ego Quota for the day. Saying it would exceed that quota and lead to my head overloading from my ego expanding beyond all natural limits.
Please refrain from personal attacks and flaming, these are violations of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
And we know Mystra is dead. Some Realms fans actually liked Mystra and would prefer her in the setting, myself included.
Sure, though I was never in that group. Never liked her chosen either all that much. But sure she had fans in the old guard.
I would have been just fine with the death of Mystra directing us to the 4E rule changes and maybe a 10 year event that left us with a 4E Realms in about 1385 or so. I could deal with that as long as it didn't destroy or Eberronize the setting as much as whats going down
I would, but I'm approaching my Ego Quota for the day. Saying it would exceed that quota and lead to my head overloading from my ego expanding beyond all natural limits.
Oh yeah! Torm as a Greater Deity.
Can't wait to see the changes to the Zhentarim, Eveningstar, Netherese, Harpers, Zhentil Keep, Cormyr, Dales and Cormanthor.
Can't wait to see the changes to the Zhentarim, Eveningstar, Netherese, Harpers, Zhentil Keep, Cormyr, Dales and Cormanthor.
What about Tethyr?
Not that that was ever truly the case before, as per the FRCS itself.
You're right, it wasn't.
But pretending a majority of DMs didn't feel that way, either through having to deal with players who already knew more about the setting or by simply doing a little legwork and learning just how many years the setting (and its attendant sourcebooks and novels) has been around, is just that: pretending.
The 100 year jump takes the load off, whether that load be perceived or otherwise.
:P
Here's is the major perk I see from the setting updating. You can take an old sourcebook for an area compare it to a new one and actually know what the ruins in that area would be.
OMG that's soooo true. :D
It's like they're makig it to easy for us.
I kinda get the feeling some game designers either have or will be doing just that.
You're right....
Of course I am.
But pretending a majority of DMs didn't feel that way, either through having to deal with players who already knew more about the setting or by simply doing a little legwork and learning just how many years the setting (and its attendant sourcebooks and novels) has been around, is just that: pretending.
I've said this before and I'll say it again--none of the posters here, not even you, has hard statistics about what the majority of DMs felt. So, I don't see how you can confidently speak for them like you just did.
It's like arguing with someone who refuses to believe the world is round. I may not be able to provide or otherwise expain in adequate detail how we know the world is round, but that doesn't change the fact that is is round.
I trust to my considerable gaming experience, my time on these and other forums, my interactions with fellow gamers at Cons and the methods by which WotC has and continues to gather customer feedback.
It's like arguing with someone who refuses to believe the world is round. I may not be able to provide or otherwise expain in adequate detail how we know the world is round, but that doesn't change the fact that is is round.
Not really--that is a bad example, because what you are talking about has only to do with your personal experience, not scientific methodology. You may not be able to prove the world is round, but that doesn't mean no one else can (people can, with science).
Personal experience is a pretty poor way to prove something, for numerous reasons (should I list them?). I won't dispute the experiences you've had, but if you put forth your opinions as facts, I will challenge that, and with success.
I’m hoping WotC is able to create via the novels and sourcebooks new memorable NPCs along the likes of Azoun, Blackstaff, Szass Tam and so on.
For example, I wonder about the nature and demeanor of the King of Cormyr in 4E. Will he be as notable a King as Azoun was? In what ways will he be different? Will he be like Azoun in that he’s willing to go around in disguise and maybe as a result run into the PCs in a D&D game?
And if yes, how best to roleplay him as a (important) NPC a 4E FR D&D encounter?
I hope WotC gives us enough information so we can make the new NPCs that are supposed to be notable well and truly that.
So I’m looking forward to a revised cast of characters, so to speak. Heh I just realized Szass Tam and some others may still be around in 4E!
But that’s good too because we get to mix old with new when we play.
Getting back on topic....
I’m hoping WotC is able to create via the novels and sourcebooks new memorable NPCs along the likes of Azoun, Blackstaff, Szass Tam and so on.
They have already said there will be 2 sourcebooks, the Campaign Book and the Players' Guide, and that's it. period.
Not really--that is a bad example, because what you are talking about has only to do with your personal experience, not scientific methodology. You may not be able to prove the world is round, but that doesn't mean no one else can (people can, with science).
By the great funkiness that is Bejebuz, woman, are we sure you aren't Karsus? Getting gooey-gooey with himself would be funny and all, but having two of him would just be scary. ;)
For example, I wonder about the nature and demeanor of the King of Cormyr in 4E. Will he be as notable a King as Azoun was? In what ways will he be different? Will he be like Azoun in that he’s willing to go around in disguise and maybe as a result run into the PCs in a D&D game?
By word, he isn't anywhere near what his grandfather was. But he is trying his best. There seems to be respect for him, if not agreement.
They have already said there will be 2 sourcebooks, the Campaign Book and the Players' Guide, and that's it. period.
Uh...three. Or did I miss something in this chaos?
Uh...three. Or did I miss something in this chaos?
the third book is an adventure
Uh...three. Or did I miss something in this chaos?
I wouldn't expect too much in the adventure.
They have already said there will be 2 sourcebooks, the Campaign Book and the Players' Guide, and that's it. period.
Can you provide a definitive link that proves WotC plans to produce 2 sourcebooks and one adventure and nothing else?
Can you provide a definitive link that proves WotC plans to produce 2 sourcebooks and one adventure and nothing else?
I'm pretty sure Rich confirmed it in the Ask the designers thread. I believe any other info will address thru the ridiculously high priced DDi service
Can you provide a definitive link that proves WotC plans to produce 2 sourcebooks and one adventure and nothing else?
Here. I cut and paste an answer from Rich as to this question:
"This is not a straight comparison, but I'll try it anyway: Say we were publishing Dragon in the paper format we all know from way back when. And say that you asked me, "I want Dragon content, but I don't want to subscribe and I'm not going to pick it up at my FLGS."
My only answer to that would be, "I hope that someday we succeed in making Dragon compelling enough for you to change your mind." Other than that, what could we do?
DDi is where the Realms game support is going to live for now. I'd point out that many core D&D products are still being printed the old-fashioned way, and that these will add potential content to your FR game too -- for example, the next monster manual will be chock full of critters you could add to an FR game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Karsus
-Rich- and mind you, I am hardly 100% in the know- from what I have heard, there will be those three books all released in the next couple of months, and then that's it. The rest of the new information that is released will be via DDI, or via novels. Am I correct, so far? Now, presuming someone doesn't suscribe to DDI, how are new information releases going to be "handled". Those people are, basically, "out of luck", so to say? Not trying to lead you on, or anything, just wondering. "
I wouldn't expect too much in the adventure.
I would agree
Wait! You mean that the NEW and IMPROVED FR will be chock full of lore goodness just like the Headless Zhent Horseman? How could we have ever have doubted the future if that is the case?
Hey! That Zhent was perfectly cool until he lost his head.
By the great funkiness that is Bejebuz, woman, are we sure you aren't Karsus? Getting gooey-gooey with himself would be funny and all, but having two of him would just be scary. ;)
I'm not LK, we both just happen to be very logical.;)
Probably not for a while... we're likely going to have to wait a long time until something as Cool and Sick as the headless Zhent shows up again...
You mean the "Zhent Headless Horseman?";)
I'm not LK, we both just happen to be very logical.;)
As are many of us. Guess it just takes years of posting around here to become both as logical and philosophically picky as you two have become. ;)
Perhaps one without the other can no longer fly? Is there no such thing as practicality?
If there isn't, then that sucks.
I'm a big fan of practicality.
As are many of us. Guess it just takes years of posting around here to become both as logical and philosophically picky as you two have become. ;)
Well, you don't have to post here, specifically, you just need to learn about critical thinking and practice it as much as possible.
I'm not LK, we both just happen to be very logical.;)
LK isn't that logical. He's a mets fan after all
Just a reminder folks to stay on the topic at hand.
Oh, come on now...it would have come back around.
TOPIC (fumbling backwards in thought):
Headless...practical...logical...Zhents...Rich...content...con--there it is!!! Rich Content!! FR is going to have plenty of rich content--there will be plenty of rich content in FR going forward!
We back on topic! :D
LK isn't that logical. He's a mets fan after all
Mets aren't rich content. See?!! We still on topic!! :D
EDIT: I really meant RICH content. Yes. I did.
Mets. Very important. Yes.
If I were to DM a game using the 4E rules, it would be my own created setting.
lets do it
lets do it
Heh, thanks for the vote of confidence. If these new rules make for really easy DMing, that'd be a boon for me, that's for sure.
we should all just make a new setting and dump this FR thing. 'Course, Galorian seems cool
Yet, your prominent presence on this board would have to suffer as you concentrated your effort on creating your own perfect world.
I would sort of prefer a different deal--a Forgotten Realms 3.75. You know, like Karsus did with the Elven Netbook. Except this time, we have past and future knowledge to create the perfect Realm within the 100 year span that they cut out.
It could be ours again. :evillaugh
Yet, your prominent presence on this board would have to suffer as you concentrated your effort on creating your own perfect world.
you all would miss me?
you all would miss me?
I would. But, I've been silently defending you behind the scenes for a while now, so...the rest...?
;)
Here. I cut and paste an answer from Rich as to this question:
Thank you sir!
:D
If I were to DM a game using the 4E rules, it would be my own created setting.
How about the core setting? I rather like it, myself.
DMing will be the same. Some players will still know more than DMs, in relation to the sourcebooks, and will be snotty about it, while some wont. And, some DMs will still know more than their players, concerning sourcebooks, and will be snotty about it, while some wont. Nothing is really changing. Except for saying it will be easier, anyway. But, the devil is in the details, so to speak.
How about the core setting? I rather like it, myself.
I love the "core setting", GK. I'd have to tweak it though, since it's not fully developed and is meant to be filled in.
I havent read the entire thread, but...
DMing will be the same. Some players will still know more than DMs, in relation to the sourcebooks, and will be snotty about it, while some wont. And, some DMs will still know more than their players, concerning sourcebooks, and will be snotty about it, while some wont. Nothing is really changing. Except for saying it will be easier, anyway. But, the devil is in the details, so to speak.
I agree. Human nature isn't going to change.
Yet, your prominent presence on this board would have to suffer as you concentrated your effort on creating your own perfect world.
I would sort of prefer a different deal--a Forgotten Realms 3.75. You know, like Karsus did with the Elven Netbook. Except this time, we have past and future knowledge to create the perfect Realm within the 100 year span that they cut out.
It could be ours again. :evillaugh
http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com
Thank you sir!
:D
Your welcome. I was unfortunately remembering correctly
http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com
a noble effort for certain
http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com
a noble effort for certain
Indeed. But, unless I am missing something, that's not exactly what I was getting at.
Do you need to be logged in?
Yea, the guys there have been hard at work "re"making the Realms. I'm liking the ideas there.
I'll hold the "ooh, ooh!" part for after I've logged in and actually checked things out. Thanks.
Now, aren't you supposed to be stalking Karsus or something? ;)
I'll hold the "ooh, ooh!" part for after I've logged in and actually checked things out. Thanks.
Now, aren't you supposed to be stalking Karsus or something? ;)
It was a joke, lay off it
It was a joke, lay off it
:D
Fine. Fine. I relent. :surrender
Just be sure that Karsus has enough hands without you offering yours. :D
Indeed. But, unless I am missing something, that's not exactly what I was getting at.
Do you need to be logged in?
Please Join. We'll have some fun over there
Please Join. We'll have some fun over there
You go from "lay off" to "please join"?
Something wrong wit' you, Bubba. Big time.
You go from "lay off" to "please join"?
Something wrong wit' you, Bubba. Big time.
when have I ever said lay off
when have I ever said lay off
Oh,
, dude!I was trying to avoid/pick up/avoid/pick up a phone call when I was reading this. Then I picked it up and kept typing without realizing the "M" I saw at the beginning of the posters name wasn't Magister_Kal in reply to my last post, but an-A-one MerrikCale.
Sorry, Butch. Don't prosecute me. It was Unintentional Nameslaughter!!!
Not really much left to be said... though the conversation is considerably less than enthralling.
-Be that as it may, there are the makings of some "decent" debate in there. Somewhere.
-Anyway, as I have said in the past, nothing is actually changing except perception. Players who are fussy concerning canon will still be fussy, DMs who are fussy concerning canon will still be fussy, players who read every single bit of information will continue to do so, DMs who read every single bit of information will continue, players who don't read every single bit of information will continue to do that, and DMs that don't read every single bit of information will continue to do that.
-A DM makes a "mistake" and fails to remember a single sentence that a player does, and that player brings it up, and bam! "You're back in the same boat".
-Be that as it may, there are the makings of some "decent" debate in there. Somewhere.
-Anyway, as I have said in the past, nothing is actually changing except perception. Players who are fussy concerning canon will still be fussy, DMs who are fussy concerning canon will still be fussy, players who read every single bit of information will continue to do so, DMs who read every single bit of information will continue, players who don't read every single bit of information will continue to do that, and DMs that don't read every single bit of information will continue to do that.
-A DM makes a "mistake" and fails to remember a single sentence that a player does, and that player brings it up, and bam! "You're back in the same boat".
With one exception. DMs can't complain that they are overwhelmed by the setting if the player's know more about it because he had the same "start" that everybody else.
With one exception. DMs can't complain that they are overwhelmed by the setting if the player's know more about it because he had the same "start" that everybody else.
-Sure they can. People can complain about a ham sandwich being a pork product.
-A DM who wants to do complaining can invoke the Countdown to the Realms articles is he/she wants to...A DM who wants to complain (in the future) can invoke non-access to the Online D&D tool thing...
-None of this means these are good arguments and points they have, but...
-Sure they can. People can complain about a ham sandwich being a pork product.
-A DM who wants to do complaining can invoke the Countdown to the Realms articles is he/she wants to...A DM who wants to complain (in the future) can invoke non-access to the Online D&D tool thing...
-None of this means these are good arguments and points they have, but...
Which is why I was using an ironic tone with that answer, making fun of WotC's concept that everybody will have a fresh start with 4th edition (a lie, because I already know more about 4th edition than you, for example).
Which is why I was using an ironic tone with that answer, making fun of WotC's concept that everybody will have a fresh start with 4th edition (a lie, because I already know more about 4th edition than you, for example).
-Oh. I was not catching the irony. ;)
Though I'd agree people are gonna find a reason to complain no matter what if they're of a mind to do so...
Because D&D is Pork, and if you can't see that brother, they've got you brainwashed...
-Of course, ladies and gentlemen, what Stigger is saying is completely true. D&D is pork. When he says 'pork', of course, he is talking about the governmental definition of pork, that, more or less, being unneeded bloviating found in bills and such. D&D rulesets are exactly that. Unneeded. Rule 0.
;)