What ever happened to the Seldarine in 4th editon forgotten realms?
I heard that some deties appeard to be part of human deities.
I also read somewhere that all Elv deities, with the exception of Correlon, are now exarchs.
What ever happened to the Seldarine in 4th editon forgotten realms?
I heard that some deties appeard to be part of human deities.
I also read somewhere that all Elv deities, with the exception of Correlon, are now exarchs.
The Seldarine are still around, but yeah theyre all exarchs of Correlon now. and yeah some did turn out to be human deities like Hanali Celanil was really Sune. But i'm sure as the elves see it as Sune is really Hanali Celanil. They're going with a more multi-racial pantheon now instead of having elf gods, orc gods, and what have you theres just the gods. Which i admit i kinda like. Ive been doin that in my game world for years.
I still only have the old 3 edition books. Is there a website or anything that list all 4ed deities?
I'm not sure of any websites you could wikipedia
but heres a list:
GREATER GODS
Amaunator, Asmodeus, Bane, Chauntea, Corellon, Cyric, Ghaunadaur,Gruumsh, Kelemvor, Lolth, Moradin,Oghma,Selûne, Shar, Silvanus, Sune, Tempus, Torm
GODS
Angharradh, Auril, Bahamut, Berronar Truesilver, Beshaba, Garl Glittergold, Gond, Ilmater, Loviatar Luthic, Mielikki, Sheela Peryroyl, Sseth,Talona, Tiamat, Tymora, Umberlee, Waukeen, Zehir
PRIMORDIALS
Akadi, Bazim-Gorag, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth
ARCHDEVILS OF THE NINE HELLS
Bel, Dispater, Mammon, Belial, Levistus, Glasya, Baalzebul, Mephistopheles
And then theres a long list of Exarches which i dont feel like listing right now.
basically all the old demi and quasi powers are now exarchs. they dont list Finder or Gwaeron Windstorm on there but most of the others are listed. i might be missing some that are mia but those 2 are the ones i remeber.
The Seldarine is still around, though it took quite a hit(Read: They screwed things up badly).
Corellon Larethian: Still around, still a Greater God, though not as focusedly Elven anymore. And I think now he's supposedly not even the creator of the elves anymore too, which is yet another stupid and pointless change.
Angharradh: Still around as a God. I never liked her, and in 4e she makes even less sense than she ever did now that the goddesses she was supposedly comprised of have been retconned to never really have existed. I'd rather they have gotten rid of her entirely, she was always an almost exclusively Moon Elven thing anyway. Corellon doesn't need a damned wife, he's already both male and female.
Sehanine Moonbow: Allegedly an aspect of Selune. Meh, I hated her anyway. Corellon, again, didn't need a wife.
Hanali Celanil: Supposedly an aspect of Sune. Lame.
Aerdrie Faenya: Supposedly an aspect of Akadi, who isn't even a god, but a primordial. This makes the least sense out of any of it. Aren't the Primordials supposed to be against the gods, not working with them?
Solonor Thelandira: Exarch
Erevan Ilesere: Exarch
Rillifane Rallathil: We've heard absolutely nothing at all. We don't know if he's dead, an aspect of someone else, an Archfey, an Exarch, the product of thousands of deranged minds, nothing.
Labelas Enoreth: Exarch
Fenmarel Mestarine: Exarch
Deep Sashelas: Exarch
Shevarash: Exarch. Sadly. Shame he isn't dead.
Corellon Larethian: Still around, still a Greater God, though not as focusedly Elven anymore. And I think now he's supposedly not even the creator of the elves anymore too, which is yet another stupid and pointless change.
Yeah, it seems they were around before the Seldarine even cast their eyes on Toril. What tripe.
Sehanine Moonbow: Allegedly an aspect of Selune. Meh, I hated her anyway. Corellon, again, didn't need a wife.
Don't think of her as a wife. Think of her as a **** buddy. (Yeah, I probably just ticked off Sehanine fans, but it's a joke, guys!)
Hanali Celanil: Supposedly an aspect of Sune. Lame.
If you've ever had the misfortune of reading Heirs of Prophecy, you'll understand why this one makes me laugh every time I see it.
Aerdrie Faenya: Supposedly an aspect of Akadi, who isn't even a god, but a primordial. This makes the least sense out of any of it. Aren't the Primordials supposed to be against the gods, not working with them?
Correct. The Primordials are supposed to be the enemies of the gods, yet many seem to sympathize with them instead. The Elemental Lords and Ubtao being the most prominent.
Solonor Thelandira: Exarch
As much as I don't like it, can we really say it's surprising? Solonor never did get much love from authors and designers.
Rillifane Rallathil: We've heard absolutely nothing at all. We don't know if he's dead, an aspect of someone else, an Archfey, an Exarch, the product of thousands of deranged minds, nothing.
There was a slight (and boy do I mean slight) hint in The Edge of Chaos that he might be an aspect of Silvanus. There's no solid proof, but that sinking feeling arises.
Shevarash: Exarch. Sadly. Shame he isn't dead.
Bite your tongue, pointy-eared treelover. Shevarash is the mightiest of the Seldarine!
you havew to remember though, of those primordials, Akadi was the only one that seam to care, as the rest were uncarring
and Shevaresh licks Shar's stomach.
(would say something else, but it would of been censored)
or kisses Shar where the sun don't shine.
or wait i gues that could be anywhere
I'd think Hanali would make a better ****-buddy than Sehanine, but Corellon probably knows something I don't.
Yeah we all know damn well what Shevarash is doing in the 'soothing embrace of Shar'. ;p
Poor Solonor. They really haven't ever done anything with him. I'm not sure they've ever bothered mentioning him anywhere at all outside of sourcebooks, and even there not much past the god books. The most exposure I can think of him getting is me naming a cat after him.
you have to remember though, of those primordials, Akadi was the only one that seam to care, as the rest were uncarring
I don't know if I'd describe the other Primordials as uncaring. Ubtao certainly cares about the mortals, moreso than Akadi. I think just because the other three Elemental Lords didn't take a direct hand in a mortal race's fate doesn't mean they don't care. (It's just that the designers couldn't think of three other deities to replace
)and Shevaresh licks Shar's stomach.(would say something else, but it would of been censored)
Nightseer will be ticked off when he learns how far Shevarash is getting.
I'd think Hanali would make a better ****-buddy than Sehanine, but Corellon probably knows something I don't.
Simple. He knows Sehanine won't comment on his ...shortcomings.
Yeah we all know damn well what Shevarash is doing in the 'soothing embrace of Shar'. ;p
And the three Seldarine ladies. He's rocked their worlds, too. They can't stand him, but that's what makes him so irresistible.
Poor Solonor. The most exposure I can think of him getting is me naming a cat after him.
How good is your cat with a bow?
4ED? What's 4ED?
4ED? What's 4ED?
something in the past , we're at 6ED now
4ED? What's 4ED?
something in the past , we're at 6ED now
Actually we're on 7e now. Man does it ever suck. I can't believe they made Chaotic Stupid a class.
I'd think Hanali would make a better ****-buddy than Sehanine, but Corellon probably knows something I don't.
Simple. He knows Sehanine won't comment on his ...shortcomings.Yeah we all know damn well what Shevarash is doing in the 'soothing embrace of Shar'. ;p
And the three Seldarine ladies. He's rocked their worlds, too. They can't stand him, but that's what makes him so irresistible.Poor Solonor. The most exposure I can think of him getting is me naming a cat after him.
How good is your cat with a bow?
I can assure you that Corellon has no shortcomings. ...That sounded wrong again, didn't it.
Nah, Hanali wouldn't do it with Shevarash, but he does get it on with Fenmarel. ;)
Dunno on the bow thing, I'd have to find one sized for kittens. He's a pretty good hunter, though, for an indoor-only cat. Well, outside of the utter lack of camoflauge from being a flamepoint siamese. I considered naming him Labelas instead, but that was the name I wanted to give a one-eyed siamese I'd wanted to get a while back and couldn't.
7E, yeah it blows chunks man, I'm glad I skipped it over in the bookstore....
you should of seen what they did to Cyric in it.....
and I thought 4E and 5E were bad, atleast 6E was tolleratable....
I'm going back to 3.5....
I still can't believe they merged FR and Eberron. On the bright side, Corellon is the only god now, so that at least I can't complain about, though they did spell his name wrong on page 48,379 of the Player's Handguidebook, the heretical bastards.
Also the sky blue text is kind of hard to read. The silver isn't much better.
OK, back to the Seldarine and such important matters as Corellon's package and who Shevarash is sleeping with. :P
OK, back to the Seldarine and such important matters as Corellon's package and who Shevarash is sleeping with. :P
It's been said Corellon enjoys the company of all the Seldarine, so Shev has a shield mate. And then there's Shar. And Hanali. And Sehanine. And Aerdrie. And Eilistraee (why do you think he left her followers alone?). And Sharess (who, I figure, has done it with just about every divine entity in the cosmos). And Shiallia (because their names both start with Sh and they're fey).
Wasn't Sharess originally an aspect of Shar?
Wasn't Sharess originally an aspect of Shar?
BURN THE HERETIC!!!!!!
no she wasnt, she is Bast
Wasn't Sharess originally an aspect of Shar?
BURN THE HERETIC!!!!!!
no she wasnt, she is Bast
YIKES!!!!
I know shes Bast, but i remember reading that somewhere, but dont remember where. Looked through the faiths and pantheons books and it said something about her falling under the sway of Shar but after the Time of Troubles she broke free with the help of Selune. But I remember some book somewhere stating that she was an aspect of Shar.
YIKES!!!!I know shes Bast, but i remember reading that somewhere, but dont remember where. Looked through the faiths and pantheons books and it said something about her falling under the sway of Shar but after the Time of Troubles she broke free with the help of Selune. But I remember some book somewhere stating that she was an aspect of Shar.
I believe that she was merely a puppet under Shar's hand. She was never an actual aspect of Shar (though Shar's aspect as a seductress was an influence on Sharess). She was also an amalgamation of Zandilar and Bast, if I recall. Maybe I'm butchering that last bit. And I think it was Sune who liberated her.
You are correct Lord Manshoon it was Sune not Selune. In my defense they both do start with s. And so yes Sharess did have some connection to Shar in the past, but I swear to the Gods that there was something that labeled her as an aspect. For the life of me i cant find it now. I looked through the Faiths & Avatar books, Old Empires, and any other book i can think of but i cant find it. 2,000 XP to who ever can tell me what book that was in. Im not crazy, Im not!!!!!
You are correct Lord Manshoon it was Sune not Selune. In my defense they both do start with s.
No worries.
And so yes Sharess did have some connection to Shar in the past, but I swear to the Gods that there was something that labeled her as an aspect. For the life of me i cant find it now. I looked through the Faiths & Avatar books, Old Empires, and any other book i can think of but i cant find it. 2,000 XP to who ever can tell me what book that was in. Im not crazy, Im not!!!!!
This kind of thing happens to all of us.
So Labelas Enoreth is awesome. Discuss.
Didn't Labelas sacrifice his eye at some point for the time portfolio? So he's the only one managing the timestream after Mystryl/Mystra's death or has Aumanotor reigned in on some of Labelas' position?
So Labelas Enoreth is awesome. Discuss.
Yes he is! I played a chronomancer once and that was my god of choice. I guess i could of picked Mystra as well as i believe she had a connection to time as well from Mystryl. There's a reference to an older god called Chronus in the Four from Cormyr adventure book, who could possibly be an aspect of Labelas Enoreth.
He definatly needs the Time domain.
But off topic (again) i still want to know where i read the Sharess thing.
2,000 XP people!!!!
Didn't Labelas sacrifice his eye at some point for the time portfolio? So he's the only one managing the timestream after Mystryl/Mystra's death or has Aumanotor reigned in on some of Labelas' position?
I just got done flipping through the Demihuman Deities book and it does reference him as the one-eyed god but i didn't find anything that said how he lost it. Might be in an older source? Sounds very Odinesque. I would say Amaunator has indeed reigned in on Labelas' postion. Labelas is an Exarch and Amaunator is a greater power and they mention alot about time keeping under Amaunator's write up.
No source mentions how he lost the eye, I always suspected that's got something to do with Gruumsh. That Labelas was the previous leader of the Seldarine, and that Gruumsh was a part of him unable to accept the succession.
Amaunator was just a local god.
As for Chronus, after titans vanished, and the giant pantheon was kicked out of Arvandor, I guess then Labelas started to impersonate him.
After doing a more extensive read of Demihuman Deities it does indeed state that he traded his eye for the ability to peer through time (pg 117). So i guess he still has the eye, its just in a different time frame. It states chronus was an aspect of Labelas. Also when the Sy-Tel'Quessir (Star Elves) settled the Yuirwood, the Seldarine merged with the ancient gods of the Yuirwood (Primal Spirits). Labelas merged with Simbul the Yuir goddes of the moment of choice, the edge, the space between now and the future,what is and is not, and on and on. So any way she became an aspect of Labelas then became largely forgotten. The Simbul only discoverd the divine ancestry of her name in 1368 DR.
Interseting stuff.
No source mentions how he lost the eye, I always suspected that's got something to do with Gruumsh. That Labelas was the previous leader of the Seldarine, and that Gruumsh was a part of him unable to accept the succession.
Amaunator was just a local god.
As for Chronus, after titans vanished, and the giant pantheon was kicked out of Arvandor, I guess then Labelas started to impersonate him.
Thats right Chronus was a titan. I forgot my Greek mythology, or was it Roman? I always get those mixed up. Also spelled Karonis or Kronus. So yeah probably some connection there. As for Amaunator he was more than a local deity during the Age of Netheril. After the fall of that empire he bacame Lathander, but the Bedine, the barabarian tribes in Anauroch still worshiped him as Amaunator
Didn't Labelas sacrifice his eye at some point for the time portfolio?
Personally, I think Corellon was in the mood for something really erotic and decided to..... You know, I won't even proceed with what I was about to say. (But you all know where this was headed
)Yeah, I can take the piss out of Labelas when I want to. He's the only member of the Seldarine I dislike. May Erevan curbstomp him and steal his wallet.
Planescape's On Hallowed Ground also mentions Labelas as having traded his eye for the ability to peer through time.
Monster Mythology does not, incidentally, nor does the original writeup of him in Dragon 60(Indeed, the art of him there depicts him with both eyes), nor 1e Unearthed Arcana.
I'm not sure when that started; it seems to have been at least initially Realms-specific, and at least as far back as 1989 since he's depicted in the Forgotten Realms comic as being one-eyed and having an eyepatch, but I can't find mention of it prior to On Hallowed Ground in 1996. Perhaps in some sourcebook or Dragon article I'm not aware of, or maybe it originated with the comic.
Didn't Labelas sacrifice his eye at some point for the time portfolio?
Personally, I think Corellon was in the mood for something really erotic and decided to..... You know, I won't even proceed with what I was about to say. (But you all know where this was headedYeah, I can take the piss out of Labelas when I want to. He's the only member of the Seldarine I dislike. May Erevan curbstomp him and steal his wallet.
Aww, what's wrong with Labelas? :< Sure, he was a **** during the Time of Troubles, but he tried to make up for it later, which for a god is pretty damned impressive that he was actually willing to admit that he screwed things up and try to atone for it. (Talking specifically the follow-up story in Dragon 247, not just issue 25.)
And Corellon isn't that kinky. Usually. He has his moments, though. ;)
Yeah Lord Manshoon, hes lord of the Continuum. He's an elven Q. How cool is that!?
Yeah Lord Manshoon, hes lord of the Continuum. He's an elven Q. How cool is that!?
Damn you, now Labelas will eternally look and sound in my mind like an elven John de Lancie.
Which is actually kind of hot.
Damn you, now Labelas will eternally look and sound in my mind like an elven John de Lancie.
Which is actually kind of hot.
Sorry my bad. Reading that he was Lord of the Continuum put me in mind of Q, but i always imagined Labelas as an elven Dr. Who. (Tom Baker). But i think an elven John de Lancie works better.
Yeah Lord Manshoon, hes lord of the Continuum. He's an elven Q. How cool is that!?
Damn you, now Labelas will eternally look and sound in my mind like an elven John de Lancie.
Which is actually kind of hot.
I have no idea who Labelas is but after that comparison, I'd have to agree!
I have no idea who Labelas is but after that comparison, I'd have to agree!
He's the elven god of time
and a complete terd
and a complete terd
Man i wouldnt say that. He could mess you up. Mess you up real bad. He could go back in time and mess you up before you was even born!
Aww, what's wrong with Labelas? :< Sure, he was a **** during the Time of Troubles, but he tried to make up for it later, which for a god is pretty damned impressive that he was actually willing to admit that he screwed things up and try to atone for it. (Talking specifically the follow-up story in Dragon 247, not just issue 25.)
Never did see that story. Probably would change my mind. But since I don't have it, let the blind dissing of Labelas continue! Or not...
And Corellon isn't that kinky. Usually. He has his moments, though. ;)
And to think, he has an entire pantheon on which to gorge his sexual appettite. I feel kinda bad for the other Seldarine deities. They can't say no (especially if you follow 4E's Exarch model, in which case, they're helpless). Not that I do, but still...
And to think, he has an entire pantheon on which to gorge his sexual appettite. I feel kinda bad for the other Seldarine deities. They can't say no (especially if you follow 4E's Exarch model, in which case, they're helpless). Not that I do, but still...
2 Entire pantheons, now that gnomes are fey as well
and by doing that, he'd prove me right, and Corellon would throw him out of the seldarine and name him tannari too, just like he did with that 8 legged bimbo freak
And to think, he has an entire pantheon on which to gorge his sexual appettite. I feel kinda bad for the other Seldarine deities. They can't say no (especially if you follow 4E's Exarch model, in which case, they're helpless). Not that I do, but still...
2 Entire pantheons, now that gnomes are fey as well
Good point! I forgot all about Garl's gang. Gee, Corellon, show some measure of self-control, will ya?
Good point! I forgot all about Garl's gang. Gee, Corellon, show some measure of self-control, will ya?
Oh man thats some funny stuff. I just shot pepsi all over the monitor, outta my nose!!!
I guess them gnomes are about the right height...
and by doing that, he'd prove me right, and Corellon would throw him out of the seldarine and name him tannari too, just like he did with that 8 legged bimbo freak
I dont know man Labelas would be like "but he called me a turd!" and Corellon would be like well ok this one time.
Meh, it was a dwarf he got into it with, and a bunch of humans suffered... not like those Tanar'ri in disguise Archfiend Seldarine types give a crap about either. Probably pat him on the back and leave it at "Well done old bean".
Hey now, Corellon has plenty of self-control.
Didn't know Chaotic Evil types bothered with self control...
We're talking about Corellon, not Cyric.
Corellon is Chaotic Good. :P
Dont forget the Gnomes! Sorry im still laughing over that. paints quite a mental picture.
But any way back on topic...
I think it's interesting that the Elven pantheon absorbed the old Yuir gods. I totally missed that before. Just now reading it in Demihuman Deities. I must of have that book for years but ive just now really started digging into it. So that gives the Elven gods a primal connection, interesting. I wonder maybe if something similar happend with Kosuth and Auril and the other Primordials? Perhaps they were gods and absorbed primordial essences? Or I guess some of the primordials stayed on Toril and some gods went to Abier? But still if they were always primordials why have worshipers and all that? they don't need them. So now im wondering did they have to take on a mortal avatar during the Time of Troubles as well? I dont recall reading anything that said they did. Sorry I'm gettin a little of topic again. Just got me wondering
We're talking about Corellon, not Cyric.
Corellon is Chaotic Good. :P
Or Unaligned (read: Soulless) in Core.
D'oh i listed Auril as primordial and shes not. theres not an elemental plane of cold no more? But any way way i checked and none of the elemental lords were spotted in the Realms during the ToT, so i guess they aways just been primordials. But still why did they stay on toril and have worshippers and everything. Maybe the other primordials shunned them for being god wannabes. But any way pointless speculation on my part and totally off topic. So back to the topic at hand:
What about Erevan Ilesere?
who wants to bet he turns out to be an aspect of Mask?
any takers?
D'oh i listed Auril as primordial and shes not. theres not an elemental plane of cold no more? But any way way i checked and none of the elemental lords were spotted in the Realms during the ToT, so i guess they aways just been primordials. But still why did they stay on toril and have worshippers and everything. Maybe the other primordials shunned them for being god wannabes. But any way pointless speculation on my part and totally off topic. So back to the topic at hand:
What about Erevan Ilesere?
who wants to bet he turns out to be an aspect of Mask?
any takers?
Be warned. Nai Calus will smite you for this.
I meant it as a joke.
Really!
But It would not suprise me one bit if they did that. In fact im expectin them too. They left enough clues to let everyone know Mask is still around, so you know they got plans for him.
I meant it as a joke.
Really!
But It would not suprise me one bit if they did that. In fact im expectin them too. They left enough clues to let everyone know Mask is still around, so you know they got plans for him.
True, but I envisioned Mask's fate tied more to Riven and the up-and-comer, Vasen Cale. And I suppose Rivalen and Mephistopheles will have parts to play too. Don't really think Erevan's going to have any role, but it would be cool if Paul introduced a follower of Erevan in the upcoming Cycle of Night trilogy. Unfortunately, Erik Scott de Bie has already managed to beat him in two fields:
1. If Paul does make a trickster, he/she will have a helluva time trying to surpass everyone's favorite Fox. 
2. If Paul was to try a Mask-Erevan heresy, he'd be taking a page out of Erik's book. (And that book is Downshadow).
Although, Paul is my second favorite Realms author (and a close second it is), and I love all of his works, so I encourage him to go all out!
In my opinion the gods should be raceless and sexless. They are personifications of ideas. So i can see the same god being a female dwarf to one group of worshipers and a male centaur to others. So i agreed with how they revealed certain gods were aspects of other gods. Made perfect sense to me. I didnt like that they say Hanali was really Sune. I see elves as being around longer than humans so what they should of said was Sune was really an aspect of Hanali. Really i guess it could go either way depending on your point of view, I'm sure Elves and Eldarin believe the later.
In my opinion the gods should be raceless and sexless.
Well, all of them are sexless. But they do have genders for the sake of giving them some RW vibe. The only bone in this is elevated mortals, who at one point did possess races and sexes. I know divinity allows one to transcend those mortal concepts, but I can't help but feel the memory of having a race and sex is still strong even in the mind of a man-turned-deity.
They are personifications of ideas. So i can see the same god being a female dwarf to one group of worshipers and a male centaur to others. So i agreed with how they revealed certain gods were aspects of other gods. Made perfect sense to me.
That's fair enough. Thing is, some deities are specifically tied to certain races. For example, Moradin has a unique bond with dwarves. I can't imagine Moradin would want to move much farther beyond his dwarven powerbase. I don't see him appearing to other races as something other than a dwarf. Again, the mortal-turned-god thing also raises its head, because former mortals aren't really the personification of ideas (at least, not fully). They still have that mortal identity in the back of their minds. How much of a factor that is varies from deity to deity. For instance, I don't believe Finder ever tried to appear as a saurial to his scaly faithful.
I didnt like that they say Hanali was really Sune. I see elves as being around longer than humans so what they should of said was Sune was really an aspect of Hanali. Really i guess it could go either way depending on your point of view, I'm sure Elves and Eldarin believe the later.
To my knowledge, elves and eladrin continue to view Sune as Hanali. To the more conservative ones, I don't believe they would acknowledge Sune has anything to do with Hanali. And this one doesn't annoy me as much as Akadi-Aerdrie. A Primordial was masquerading as a goddess, who was masquerading as another goddess? That's... a stretch.
True, but I envisioned Mask's fate tied more to Riven and the up-and-comer, Vasen Cale. And I suppose Rivalen and Mephistopheles will have parts to play too. Don't really think Erevan's going to have any role, but it would be cool if Paul introduced a follower of Erevan in the upcoming Cycle of Night trilogy. Unfortunately, Erik Scott de Bie has already managed to beat him in two fields:
1. If Paul does make a trickster, he/she will have a helluva time trying to surpass everyone's favorite Fox.
2. If Paul was to try a Mask-Erevan heresy, he'd be taking a page out of Erik's book. (And that book is Downshadow).
Although, Paul is my second favorite Realms author (and a close second it is), and I love all of his works, so I encourage him to go all out!
I havn't actually read any of those books, but sounds like i need too. Downshadow is definatly on my list as is the Blades of the Moonsea, as the Moonsea has been one of my favorite areas since the original Pool of radiance game. I was just going by source material, but i'll have to check them books out. I think the last realms novel i read was The Trial of Cyric so I'm a little behind the times as far as the novels go. So who's your first favorite Realms writer?
I havn't actually read any of those books, but sounds like i need too. Downshadow is definatly on my list as is the Blades of the Moonsea, as the Moonsea has been one of my favorite areas since the original Pool of radiance game.
Loved all three of those. One of the things I'm most pleased about regarding 4E is that they really came out swinging with the novels and authors. Not that most people like the novels, but I do, and I'm very happy.
So who's your first favorite Realms writer?
That would be Erik Scott de Bie.
And Elaine Cunningham is my third favorite (again, it's a close third). Out of the three of them and everything they've done in FR, the only piece I didn't enjoy very much was Elaine's story in Realms of War. It was decent, but I felt it was a bit below her usual level of expertise. Other than that one very minor criticism, I have nothing but good to say about my top three. 
A Primordial was masquerading as a goddess, who was masquerading as another goddess? That's... a stretch.
Yes thats a hell of a stretch I'd love to hear the story behind that one.
And you're right the gods of the Realms are definatly more tied to race and quite a few were once mortal so they would definalty have a bias towards race and gender. I was speaking more as how i see it in my own campaign. I think they ripped me off! i had the whole points of light thing goin on too!
I think they ripped me off! i had the whole points of light thing goin on too!
Sadly, if you tried to make your case to WOTC, they'd send their Shadar-Kai agents after you. You wouldn't be heard from for three months, and when you resurfaced, you'd be found in a field, glassy-eyed from their brainwashing sessions. WOTC does not tolerate threats of any kind.
I'd like to see em try! why i would totally kick their ack
Please, everyone knows that Mask is a practical joke of Erevan's.
For that matter, Vhaeraun and Erevan are actually the same god and they've just been fooling everyone for tens of thousands of years.
And 4e Core Corellon doesn't count. He ain't the real Corellon. :<
Please, everyone knows that Mask is a practical joke of Erevan's.
For that matter, Vhaeraun and Erevan are actually the same god and they've just been fooling everyone for tens of thousands of years.
And 4e Core Corellon doesn't count. He ain't the real Corellon. :<
Ok i can agree with the first part, i could see that, he is called mask after all.
but as for the second part, i dont know they seem way on the opposite ends of the spectrum. Vhaeraun seems more manipultaive and EVIL, always lurking in the shadows, youd never know it was him out to get you, where as Erevan i see more as a prankster and he wouldnt try to hide anything, he'd be like ha ha ha i totally put those tacks on your chair! i got you good!!! Just the way i see it, but perhaps he is soo good he has me fooled?
On the third part i totally agree with you there!
Didn't know Chaotic Evil types bothered with self control...
Refreshing, somebody gets it.
18Delta you the Man!!!
I just read your sig from the old gey box set. Thats where i read that about Sharess being an aspect of Shar! i was wrackin my brain over that! And i quote "Sharess, a CG aspect of Shar worshipped in Calimshan, Waterdeep, and by the idle rich or decadents all over the Realms"
I just knew i read that somewhere i was checkin all the wrong books. I should of checked the original first. OK so we know she was Bast originally but got sucked in by Shar around the fall of Myth Drannor, so thats probably where she got the name Sharess, but she wasn't fully absorbed by Shar and during the TOT, with the help of Sune, she broke free becoming her own self again. But why keep the name Sharess? I guess she already had it on all her stationary so just stuck with it? I just knew she was labeled as an aspect somewhere. Sorry I'm off topic again
Thanks again 18Delta give your self 1,000 XP
Ok.
Instead I will give myself a 2600th post for the second time on these boards.
Glad I could be of some help.
Please, everyone knows that Mask is a practical joke of Erevan's.
Funny. I was expecting thunder and hellfire from you, not casual dismissal.
For that matter, Vhaeraun and Erevan are actually the same god and they've just been fooling everyone for tens of thousands of years.
So, how does this factor into Corellon's paternity/Araushnee's maternity?
And 4e Core Corellon doesn't count. He ain't the real Corellon. :<
Damn straight.
But why keep the name Sharess? I guess she already had it on all her stationary so just stuck with it?
Perhaps to stick it to Shar? Sharess represents pretty much all that Shar loathes (warmth, pleasure, merriment). Nothing like being called Little Shar to anger the Lady of Loss. Perhaps Sharess also feels like it would gain her some clout. Sharess, the goddess who broke away from Shar's grasp.
(The other gods don't need to know Sune was there...)
We're talking about Corellon, not Cyric.
Corellon is Chaotic Good. :P
Hah! Corellon could definitely give Cyric lessons on being truly, twistedly evil... Cyric only wishes he could be Corellon, and have the same genocidally psychotic worshippers. Lolths bunch only managed to wipe out a few trees and enslave some goblins and such, whereas Corellons wiped out an several coastlines worth of humans and wiped an entire subrace "accidentally"... the Drow have never managed the atrocity the gold elves get up to on their off time.
yeah but you never saw what the illthiri did.
it was terrible, terrible oh the horror...
Me, hellfire? Never. *innocent look*
Meh, the Vyshaan got wiped out of existence, so the gold elves who were massive dicks during the Crown Wars didn't exactly get away with it. At least the drow are still alive. :p
Araushnee just had one kid, not twins. Erevan has been pretending all along. ;p That's why he got bored and helped Lolth, he wanted attention but Corellon was fawning all over Eilistraee.
And Corellon is not evil. You're all just in denial and refuse to see his gentle loving awesomeness. But someday you shall see the light.
As an aside, my new userpic makes me giggle.
gentle loving awesomeness.
:rofl:
As an aside, my new userpic makes me giggle.
Hell yeah
Aint that Labelas from the comic book?
Gentle loving awesomeness? If that's your idea of love, you must have a lot of bruises...
Perhaps to stick it to Shar? Sharess represents pretty much all that Shar loathes (warmth, pleasure, merriment). Nothing like being called Little Shar to anger the Lady of Loss. Perhaps Sharess also feels like it would gain her some clout. Sharess, the goddess who broke away from Shar's grasp.
(The other gods don't need to know Sune was there...)
Yeah that does make sense, didnt really think of that. That IS a hell of an accomplishment.
Instead I will give myself a 2600th post for the second time on these boards.
Congrats!!!
gentle loving awesomeness.
:rofl:
You laugh now, but soon you will know the truth.
As an aside, my new userpic makes me giggle.
Hell yeahAint that Labelas from the comic book?
It is indeed Labelas, yep.
Gentle loving awesomeness? If that's your idea of love, you must have a lot of bruises...
I do not. >:U Corellon is very gentle with me. He was only rough with you because he knows you like it that way.
As an aside, my new userpic makes me giggle.
That picture makes me think of Chester the Molester...
Do you roll around in a van with spray painted windows, checking the little ones out?
Are you the one behind "Satanic Ritual Abuse"?
I am glad that someone(stigger) else isn't drinking the Elf kool aid around here. Elves are the most distructive parasites in the multi-verse. Death to the Elves.
I am glad that someone(stigger) else isn't drinking the Elf kool aid around here.
I think there's something in that kool aid, i feel a little funny
Kool Aid is the elves' idea of an alcoholic beverage. That and rose water.
So why is FR Corellon nothing like the Core one?
So why is FR Corellon nothing like the Core one?
Our Corellon has a soul. Core Corellon is bleh.
Also, because FR > Core/Other Setting. Therefore, FR Corellon > Core Corellon.
(And if anyone gets uppity about this, I swear...)
Our Corellon has a soul. Core Corellon is bleh.
Also, because FR > Core/Other Setting. Therefore, FR Corellon > Core Corellon.
(And if anyone gets uppity about this, I swear...)
Yeah, but the soap opera! At least Core Corellon can pretend to some dignity for an elf. CC isn't a recurring character in "The Young and the Hairless".
dignity for an elf
Can those words be used like that? They just seem so... antithetical, especially when used together.
It's a paradox. Like 'elvish god'.
Back to the gnomes, sorry
so are they actually members of the Seldarine now? or they just hang out on the same plane? I could see that causing some friction between the elvish and gnomish deities. Like the elves are like we got this special club and you cant join but we'll let you hang out. I'm sure that would make the gnomes feel a little slighted.
It's a paradox. Like 'elvish god'.
hey its better than elvis god (would insert some funny smiliey here but they all suck!)
Back to the gnomes, sorry
so are they actually members of the Seldarine now? or they just hang out on the same plane? I could see that causing some friction between the elvish and gnomish deities. Like the elves are like we got this special club and you cant join but we'll let you hang out. I'm sure that would make the gnomes feel a little slighted.
This part. The gnomes wound up there because the Spellplague-induced cosmological chaos rammed the Golden Hills into Arvandor. And since the gnomes are/have always been/revealed themselves to be fey, they were welcomed with open arms. Right after Garl bended the knee to Corellon (which still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, Greater Power demoted to Lesser Power).
The gnomes wound up there because the Spellplague-induced cosmological chaos rammed the Golden Hills into Arvandor. And since the gnomes are/have always been/revealed themselves to be fey, they were welcomed with open arms. Right after Garl bended the knee to Corellon (which still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, Greater Power demoted to Lesser Power).
Ahhhhh the spellplauge! i shoulda known. I was thinkin that since they were fey now they just retconed it so they was always on Arvandor. That explains it a little better. Still i could see some tension goin on there.
Garl bends knee to no being, especially a cosmic despot like Corellon "Mr. Atrocity" Larethian. Lies, spread by jealous and fearful elves and their lackeys, to hide being under seige by an actually cool deity and his awesome followers, who're sticking it to 'the man'.
Though I'll point out in the interests of fairness (not that elves have any interest in that word, but I'm better than they) that elven alchohol is supposed to be considerably stronger than even dwarven beverages, and that they're supposed to be better able to handle intoxicants. It was the taste they objected to, not the alcohol.
Man! you're all a bunch of racist elf haters!
sure they may be arrogant, sure they may have hunted humans for sport back in the day, and sure maybe they accidently wiped out an entire sub-race here and there but...
damn i forgot where i was going with this.
Man! you're all a bunch of racist elf haters!
sure they may be arrogant, sure they may have hunted humans for sport back in the day, and sure maybe they accidently wiped out an entire sub-race here and there but...
damn i forgot where i was going with this.
Your point is?
Its time the Elven Kool Aid was shown for what it readlly is.
Corellon should be the God imprisoned for a 1,000 years, not Cyric. Cyric did one little itty bitty evil thing, and he gets locked up. Yet Corellon and his race of destroying parasites have ruined and trampled countless worlds and realms and nothing has been done about it and it needs to stop!
Corellon MUST be stopped!!!
No, Cyric needs to be imprisoned too, just because he's that big of a putz.
Garl and Yondalla should team up and beat all those damned fools down like the wanker deities they are is what I say. Especially Corellon... trim those ears down to something a bit rounder...
Garl and Yondalla should hook up...
Go on...
Is it just me or does this emote look constipated:
Is it just me or does this emote look constipated:
Nope it's not just you. definatly looks like he's tryin to squeeze one out!
I think so far that's the biggest complaint on the new board, the lame smilies. Hopefully they'll do something about that. Thought about just downloading some and pasting them as pics but that might get me sued or something.
Sweet! 
*sigh* I'm not even going to bother anymore. LK was pretty much the only other elf/Seldarine defender and he's gone, and it's irksome being the only one defending it.
Garl and Yondalla should hook up...
Go on...
www.greyhawkonline.com/wogcomic/title/wo...
You're four years too late.
Alright, back on topic, guys. So, the fates of the Seldarine in 4e...
*sigh* I'm not even going to bother anymore. LK was pretty much the only other elf/Seldarine defender and he's gone, and it's irksome being the only one defending it.
Hey man i got your back. I think most people are put off by elves because they come across as arrogant (especially the sun and moon elves). Sometimes elves come across like they know everything but they are a long lived race and so it would make sense for them to accumalate alot of history and knowledge in their time. Some people seem threatened by thier feyness (homophobes!). Let's face it they're all just jelous. We're looking at a classic case of elf envy here. The elves are definatly a carefree lot. If i could party with one racial group from the Realms it would definalty be the elves! well maybe halflings too, i bet they got some killer pipeweed.
Alright, back on topic, guys. So, the fates of the Seldarine in 4e...
Sorry! i got distracted by the smilies 
*sigh* I'm not even going to bother anymore. LK was pretty much the only other elf/Seldarine defender and he's gone, and it's irksome being the only one defending it.
Hey, I defend some of the Seldarine. I even defend Shevarash from you.
Actually, it's pretty much just Corellon and Labelas I like to take down a notch. The rest are cool.
www.greyhawkonline.com/wogcomic/title/wo...
You're four years too late.
Alright, back on topic, guys. So, the fates of the Seldarine in 4e...
What's there to discuss? We know everyone's fate, apart from Rillifane, who's most likely: a)an aspect of Silvanus or
b)an Archfey/Primal Spirit
Unless you want to discuss how the future of the Seldarine....
What's there to discuss? We know everyone's fate, apart from Rillifane, who's most likely: a)an aspect of Silvanus
I seem to recall reading that somewhere in one of the 2e sourcebooks it seems like. I would actually go with that even though the whole aspect thing seems to turn alot of people off.
or
b)an Archfey/Primal Spirit
Actually after merging with the old Yuir gods way back when, i would say they all have Archfey/Primal aspects.
I seem to recall reading that somewhere in one of the 2e sourcebooks it seems like. I would actually go with that even though the whole aspect thing seems to turn alot of people off.
The Edge of Chaos by Jak Koke seems to throw out the faintest hint of a teaser, by mentioning an elven community who were devout druids of Silvanus. True, it might be just be a group of elves who venerate a human deity instead of their classical nature god in 1479 DR, but given the other divine revelations (Sehanine=Selune, and the like) and Rillifane's absence from the FRCG, I can't shake the feeling Rillifane might actually have been retconned as an aspect of Silvanus, as much as I dislike it (Rill's my second favorite elven deity).
well they definatly should do something with Rillifane. It seems silly to list all these other gods and say ok theyre aspects of this god and just leave Rillifane out all together. I'm thinkin if he is an aspect it probably is Silvanus, but i dont know they could go more primal with him. Didn't Rillifane ussually take the form of a huge tree? That sounds way more primal to me than being a god of the forests, Rillifane Is the forests! Theres a hell of a story there and hopefully it gets told.
Almost nothing to discuss as far as I'm concerned... I refuse to acknowledge 4e's changes to the cosmology or pantheon, so... yeah.
As far as the Seldarine in general go, I don't actually have that big of a problem with them, mostly it was just to irritate LK and Dan. Gold elves on the other hand... evil little bastards that they are... them I have a problem with.
Gold Elves are the only type of Elves I like. 
They are like surface drow, but minus the crazy.
... I refuse to acknowledge 4e's changes to the cosmology or pantheon
For the most part i think alot of the changes made sense, alot of it was probably done to make FR more in line with 4e. I like the elemental chaos. I think that works out better than having the plane of fire, the plane of air, the plane of salt, or what ever else. I like the Feywild, i always incorporated a realm of faerie into my games so that works out for me. Alot of the planes still exsist they just lumped into the Astral Sea or the Elemental Chaos, i think it simplifies things. The way i see it the Negative Energy Plane still exists it just in a deeper part of the Shadowfell. Some of the changes they made make no sense, like Hell is now on the Astral Sea? I dont get that one at all. But the planes are vast and far beyond mortal understanding so you could easily say there hasnt been any changes to the planes themselves, just peoples perceptions of them change.
As far as the changes of the pantheon go i like most of them myself. They really needed to thin the heard there. How many gods of Justice do we really need?
Just my opinion
Gold Elves are the only type of Elves I like.
They are like surface drow, but minus the crazy.
Personally i always liked the wild elves, but i gues they're just elves now. I always like the Dark Sun elves too. I'm lookin foward to what they're gonna do there. Dark Sun maybe off topic but it's still about elves!
If I would run a 4e game and Rillifane came up I'd make him a ascended Archfey, particularly because of his old chaotic alignment. Rillifane trailblazed from the Feywild to Toril and got tracked by his closest followers, the meriad green elven tribes. Later on he got a divine sanction by Corellon when he joined the Seldarine. So he wont be an aspect of Silvanus or anything, and he would actually visit the Oakfather to counsel the Seldarine on all matters of the wild.
This is a minefield, but to advance, one must go traipsing through No Man's Land.
I like the elemental chaos. I think that works out better than having the plane of fire, the plane of air, the plane of salt, or what ever else.
I like both the old elemental planes and the Chaos, which is why I've restructured my cosmology to incorporate both. The individual elemental planes still exist, but at their heart is the Elemental Chaos. Trying to get the best of both worlds, if you will.
I like the Feywild, i always incorporated a realm of faerie into my games so that works out for me.
I agree. Though I never really gave Faerie much thought before now, I like its addition. Lot of potential, in my mind.
The way i see it the Negative Energy Plane still exists it just in a deeper part of the Shadowfell.
I actually kept the EPs, though I haven't put much thought into them other than "They still exist in my game". I think I decided a portion of the NEP was absorbed by the Shadowfell, but it's been the better part of a year since I last thought about it.
As far as the changes of the pantheon go i like most of them myself. They really needed to thin the heard there. How many gods of Justice do we really need?
This is where a red flag goes up, because this rubs a lot of people the wrong way, even though I understand it's not your intention. I personally loved the myriad of deities, and the vast possibilities to divinely-inspired lore and adventure hooks, as well as the greater number of player options. The more deities, the more possibilities. I can understand the desire for convenience, but I personally don't much care for the mass deicides/identity revelations, so I ignored them in my game (except in a couple cases, in which I twisted them around). But, to each his own.
Gold Elves are the only type of Elves I like.
They are like surface drow, but far, far bat**** crazier.
Can't help myself.
If I would run a 4e game and Rillifane came up I'd make him a ascended Archfey, particularly because of his old chaotic alignment. Rillifane trailblazed from the Feywild to Toril and got tracked by his closest followers, the meriad green elven tribes. Later on he got a divine sanction by Corellon when he joined the Seldarine. So he wont be an aspect of Silvanus or anything, and he would actually visit the Oakfather to counsel the Seldarine on all matters of the wild.
Yeah that sounds logical. Im still a little confused about archfey and primal spirits. Are archfey Primal? Im a little unclear on this, the Feywild seems to have a strong Arcane connection but i can definalty see a primal connection as well. So are archfey more Primal or Arcane or both?
This is where a red flag goes up, because this rubs a lot of people the wrong way, even though I understand it's not your intention. I personally loved the myriad of deities, and the vast possibilities to divinely-inspired lore and adventure hooks, as well as the greater number of player options. The more deities, the more possibilities. I can understand the desire for convenience, but I personally don't much care for the mass deicides/identity revelations, so I ignored them in my game (except in a couple cases, in which I twisted them around). But, to each his own.
Yeah I know a lot people got really PO'd over that. I guess i would be more bothered by it if they killed off some of my favorite gods, thankfully they've been spared. Although Hoar is now an exarch of Bane which i dont like and i think Bane shoulda stayed dead. But the Realms has a long list of Deities that haven been offed over the years. I agree they did go a little overboard with the new edition. I like they got rid of Tyr i never thought he really fit in the realms. I realize there are lots of other interloper deities in the Realms like Oghma, Loviatar, Bast/Sharess, and I'm sure theres loads more that i cant think of right now, but I don't know, Tyr just didnt seem like Tyr to me, really shouldn't he have just been worshipped by the Northmen over on the Moonshaes?
I Liked that they killed off Mystra (Midnight). The goddes of Magic should be neutral but she was always interfering and was just too goody goody in my opinion. I think they should of kept Azuth. But the Realms has a long history of gods coming back to life too, so any one of those gods could potentially come back or in the case of Leira perhaps was never killed in the first place. Well it's like they say its your Realms. But i am trying to keep with what they got in the sourcebooks even if i don't like it, that way people joinin the game have some idea whats up and i don't have to sit and explain to them ok i changed this,this,and this. Just my opinion and hopefully peolpe wont get too upset. Any way i'm totally derailing the topic again as its supposed to be the Seldarine not gods in general.
For the most part i think alot of the changes made sense, alot of it was probably done to make FR more in line with 4e.
I don't... most of them seem arbitrary, and largely done for the sake of a simplication, which became oversimplification as far as I'm concerned. I can appreciate the sentiment behind it, just not the execution of it.
I like the elemental chaos. I think that works out better than having the plane of fire, the plane of air, the plane of salt, or what ever else.
I prefer discrete planes myself. I dislike the notion that elements are chaotic, or nature for that matter, as they very much make sense and follow a distinct reasoning and rational in the way they come together. Everything in nature is there for a good reason, and whether or not we see that reason is besides the point. Its partially semantical, largely philosophical, but to say the least, I disagree with the line of reasoning behind it.
I like the Feywild, i always incorporated a realm of faerie into my games so that works out for me.
I'd agree, it is a neat concept. I hate the name, but I like the idea behind it.
Alot of the planes still exsist they just lumped into the Astral Sea or the Elemental Chaos, i think it simplifies things.
And I'd say it confused things with bizarre and often illogical associations. I preferred the idea of thematic planes and layering, it made much more sense to me... give me the great wheel any day.
The way i see it the Negative Energy Plane still exists it just in a deeper part of the Shadowfell.
And I despise the idea of the Shadowfell... any way you want to put it, I don't like this shadow garbage, conceptually, philosophically, logically, whatever. I find the whole thing entirely distasteful on so many levels its boggles me at times.
Some of the changes they made make no sense, like Hell is now on the Astral Sea? I dont get that one at all. But the planes are vast and far beyond mortal understanding so you could easily say there hasnt been any changes to the planes themselves, just peoples perceptions of them change.
I'd say most of them are in that 'make no sense' category myself. As to people's perceptions... they don't make much sense in the context of sorts of societies we're talking about with D&D. Its a large disconnect for me.
As far as the changes of the pantheon go i like most of them myself. They really needed to thin the heard there. How many gods of Justice do we really need?
Depends. I'd say one for every species who valued such things. The idea of all these different species worshipping the same deities, just with different names, strikes me as just bizarre, and largely illogical in the context of religion and societies. The move towards a simplified cosmology that's incrementally moving towards a conclusion of monotheism just leaves a rotten taste in my mouth. My own feeling is that whoever decided to condense the pantheons knew next to nothing about the way religions and cultures actually work.
Just my opinion
Same here.
Yeah that sounds logical. Im still a little confused about archfey and primal spirits. Are archfey Primal? Im a little unclear on this, the Feywild seems to have a strong Arcane connection but i can definalty see a primal connection as well. So are archfey more Primal or Arcane or both?
Aye, the whole arcane part of the Feywild hasn't been explained properly yet. In Fearun the source of arcane power hasn't been tied to the plane of Fearie before and doesn't really fit with the whole creation of Mystryl and the weave myth.
Fearuns plane of Fearie has functioned mostly as the homeworld of the elves, with its own natural world. On that world Tintageer's destruction triggered the exodus of the first sun and moon elves (or eladrin) to the Forgotten Realms. This doesn't fit well with the concept of the Feywild as a greener and more magic reflection of the natural world of Toril...
If you use the Feywild as written in the core 4ed manual of the planes I'd classify Rilifane as a diety to avoid any overtly arcane aspects to his being.
Depends. I'd say one for every species who valued such things. The idea of all these different species worshipping the same deities, just with different names, strikes me as just bizarre, and largely illogical in the context of religion and societies. The move towards a simplified cosmology that's incrementally moving towards a conclusion of monotheism just leaves a rotten taste in my mouth. My own feeling is that whoever decided to condense the pantheons knew next to nothing about the way religions and cultures actually work.
Good point! Yeah you look at the varied cultures and religions on this planet, i definatly see where youre coming from there. Thats probably the reason they got rid of Maztica, more gods they would of had to deal with.
I'm suprised you have a problem with the Shadowfell, its just the plane of shadow with a new name. Wasn't the plane of shadow part of the great wheel cosmology? I'm a little fuzzy on it right now. I don't remember if it overlaped with the prime material world or was a wholy seperate plane. I'm gonna have to dig out some old planescape books.
If you use the Feywild as written in the core 4ed manual of the planes I'd classify Rilifane as a diety to avoid any overtly arcane aspects to his being.
I don't know im really leanin towards a more primal aspect.
I like the 4E take on the planes. I like the simple elegance of them. I will be using them in my 3E games.
Now with the gods dead or missing...I can always have them come back or re-flavor them to be Archfey/Primal/Primordial. God so and so is missing(insert name here_). begin the Epic Quest to discover what happened with said god.
Yes Sun Elves are EVIL! And Corellon MUST be stopped!!!
Yes Sun Elves are EVIL! And Corellon MUST be stopped!!!
Come on now not all Sun Elves are evil, some of my best friends are sun elves, and Corellon must be stopped doing what? His Gnome lovin? Maybe they dont want him to stop! 
I'm suprised you have a problem with the Shadowfell, its just the plane of shadow with a new name. Wasn't the plane of shadow part of the great wheel cosmology? I'm a little fuzzy on it right now. I don't remember if it overlaped with the prime material world or was a wholy seperate plane. I'm gonna have to dig out some old planescape books.
My own gripe with the Shadowfell? The Shadowdark. I understand it's supposed to be a shadowy counterpart to the prime world, but why oh why would you give it a reflection of the Underdark, especially one called the Shadowdark? Other than that, I don't mind it.
And just so this is tangentially on-topic, I might have the elves make an in-roads into the Shadowfell. I like the idea of Fenmarel, Labelas, and Selvetarm(read my Tinkering with the Seldarine topic in the Arvandor group forums) directing elves and eladrin as they establish a stronger presence in that plane. A Shadar-Kai vs Elves war has a certain appeal to it.
My own gripe with the Shadowfell? The Shadowdark. I understand it's supposed to be a shadowy counterpart to the prime world, but why oh why would you give it a reflection of the Underdark, especially one called the Shadowdark? Other than that, I don't mind it.And just so this is tangentially on-topic, I might have the elves make an in-roads into the Shadowfell. I like the idea of Fenmarel, Labelas, and Selvetarm(read my Tinkering with the Seldarine topic in the Arvandor group forums) directing elves and eladrin as they establish a stronger presence in that plane. A Shadar-Kai vs Elves war has a certain appeal to it.
Well i like the concept of the Shadowdark, sounds scary!, but agreed thats a dumb name. I think Underfell sounds better. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall as they came up with that one, well its Shadowy and dark lets call it Shadowdark! yeah!
Shadar-Kai vs Elves does indeed sound cool. Shadow-Elves sounds cool too. I can see a lot of coolness there.
Stigger:
Depends. I'd say one for every species who valued such things. The idea of all these different species worshipping the same deities, just with different names, strikes me as just bizarre, and largely illogical in the context of religion and societies. The move towards a simplified cosmology that's incrementally moving towards a conclusion of monotheism just leaves a rotten taste in my mouth. My own feeling is that whoever decided to condense the pantheons knew next to nothing about the way religions and cultures actually work.
This is where I step in and take the completely opposite point of view. I would agree with you if we were talking about the real world, with real cultures and real religions. The Aztec's wouldn't have the same gods – or even similar gods – as the Greeks or the Norse.
However, this is not the real world or real religions. Unlike the real world there is undeniable proof that gods exist. They've walked the world. They send messages in the form of dream visions to mortals. They are responsible for many things that take place in everyday life. The gods are active. This isn't Eberron, because if it was then I believe your assessment would be dead on.
Here is what we knew about the gods (things may have changed):
1. They get at least a portion of their power directly from worship.
2. Only one god above demigod can hold the same portfolio.
In order to justify the second rule and multiple pantheons, a third was created.
3. There is an invisible line in the sand, and a god cannot expand their worship beyond that arbitrarily set barrier.
This barrier became most obvious when you got to places near Mulhorand.
Now, at the same time we've had many examples of gods being worshiped under different names in different regions of the world. Mystra was worshiped as the Hidden One in Rashemen, we had the Adama, Lucha as Selune, Curna as Oghma, and on and on – and probably countless examples we've never even heard of before.
So what does this all mean? Well, if you take things as they were presented in the past, there is a magical line in the dirt that deities just didn't cross. Faerûnian deities didn't try and recruit worshipers from Mulhorand and the Mulhorandi deities didn't try and capture worshipers from Faerûnian deities. In fact, they got along.
Oh, and wait – there is more. Despite in some places where Elves, Halflings, Humans, Dwarves and other races frequently intermingled they also did not swap deities. Apparently there is also an unwritten fourth rule that prevents deities from claiming worshipers of races outside of their own perceived race. (I say perceived because deities are by all accounts beyond race.)
I am not sure how this makes any sense. There is a clear motive here for Faerûnian deities to try and expand their influence into places like Maztica, Kara-Tur, Mulhorand and beyond. More worshipers equals more power. Because of the second rule this brings the various deities of different pantheons into conflict.
Anhur and Tempus should be enemies, because they are both gods of war. Another war god creates another option for the potential faithful of Tempus to turn to – stealing away potential or even current worshipers.
I cannot really think of a good reason why an Elven wizard – as an example – would not have worshiped Mystra, or Azuth, or some other human deity over Corellon, especially if he was living in a city such as Waterdeep or even Silverymoon.
I cannot think of a good reason why any deity would pledge to abide by the supposed boundary rule, when there is without a doubt places in the world where a deity could extend their influence far away from their current base of enemies. Imagine Bane spreading his influence in Maztica, and attempting to have his faithful establish an Empire there as an example.
I believe it is inevitable, based upon the first two rules that seem to govern the gods, that there would ultimately be a single world-wide spanning pantheon. This is what happens when you have living breathing gods. They are self-interested, in particular they are self-interested in growing their power and influence and staying alive. In order to do that they must gain more worshipers. In order to gain more worshipers they must cast ever wider and wider nets, reaching out to other races and into foreign lands.
It just makes logical sense when you look at the way Toril works, and do not try and think of it as the real world where the existence of gods – much like in Eberron – is highly debatable.
---
As a side note, the multiple pantheons also sometimes created weird issues. For example, why was it that Mystra – a human deity – placed in control of the Weave? How does this make deities in other Pantheons feel to have her influence overshadowing theirs? How does Isis of the Mulhorandi feel, and why would a person of Mulhorand worship Isis over Mystra? How does Corellon feel about it? On and on.
What about death? All dead went to the Fugue Plane, which was run by Kelemvor, another human deity. How did this make all the other gods of the dead feel? Kelemvor was placed above them. He had an advantage.
Yet, unrealistically from my point of view, these conflicts were not played up. Isis, Corellon, and Mystra were made to be friends. The various deities that performed basically the same function as Kelemvor for different pantheons were mostly silent on how they felt about the issue, some of them were even friendly toward him.
I do not see any of that as logical. I see it as twisted and forced, simply based upon the first two rules I outlined earlier in my post. Those two rules, along with the obvious evidence that the gods exist, turns it into a game of Highlander: There can only be one.
I am not saying I -like- the Highlander game being played; I am merely saying this is the logical conclusion of the system that was created.
Stigger you're taking my words and saying them for me, stop it, it's creepy.
I have it on good authority that Corellon and the Gnome pantheon get along juuuust fine. Though Garl and Erevan get along even better.
Basically, I hate pretty much all the god changes. And the plane changes. It blows chunks.
I also have no problem with and in fact *like* large pantheons, and racial pantheons. To me, not having either makes no sense.
Bear in mind also that situations on Toril are controlled by Ao. So the gods don't have that much of a say. Which is stupid but what can you do.
As for why an Elven wizard would worship Corellon rather than Mystra... Why in the name of the Seldarine would he worship some inferior human goddess who doesn't understand him or his connection to the Weave? Corellon is his creator and the god of *Elven* magic and high magic, a god who understands fully exactly what it means to be Elven and what magic means to Elves. I can't really imagine why an Elven wizard would *not* worship Corellon.
I have it on good authority that Corellon and the Gnome pantheon get along juuuust fine.
*Insert joke about Corellon's libido here*
I also have no problem with and in fact *like* large pantheons, and racial pantheons. To me, not having either makes no sense.
Agreed.
As for why an Elven wizard would worship Corellon rather than Mystra... Why in the name of the Seldarine would he worship some inferior human goddess who doesn't understand him or his connection to the Weave? Corellon is his creator and the god of *Elven* magic and high magic, a god who understands fully exactly what it means to be Elven and what magic means to Elves. I can't really imagine why an Elven wizard would *not* worship Corellon.
I think I understand what Meldread's trying to get at, but I'll let him speak for himself in case I put words in his mouth.
That's not to say I agree with him.@Meldred:
Interesting take, but one I obviously would disagree with. My own view of the matter is that while the various races can all (basically) agree to get along, it doesn't mean they perceive and interpret the world in the same way. I'd tend to look at it as a matter of shading, the idea that as a society becomes more advanced, their language advances along with it to include shades on a single concept, which invariably tell you a great deal about what a culture values and views as most important. A hunter society maybe has three words for hunger, general hunger, grain hunger, and then meat hunger, while only having one word for trade. A trading culture meanwhile only bothers with one word for hunger, and has ten different words to describe different types and aspects of commerce.
My view is that gods would develop similarly. Each culture and species has its own pantheon to help it describe its own view of the world, to refine their understanding, and reinforce and define their cultural beliefs and customs. Those racial pantheons represent not only their people, but also form a large part of their cultural and racial identity. Sure, that does make for a lot of gods, but given the vastness of existance and the planes, I see little difficulty with a multitude of deities.
As to your line in the sand, I'd say it was there voluntarily to prevent religious strife and warfare, a mechanism to prevent an era like the Crusades with its senseless bloodshed and violence. I see little to no reason for there to be needless conflict, or why either of the pantheons must seek to expand their reach. Why does there have to be a sense of competition or conquest? The lack of widespread religious warfare beyond good versus evil would imply that they've learned to be comfortable with their borders and live peacably with their neighbors. Insisting that there can be only one in a highlanderish sort of way seems to me to be injecting far too much real-world politics and views into things.
As to various deities not claiming worshippers across racial lines... I don't see much evidence of it in practice. Oleff Uskar of Tyr, in Neverwinter was originally said to be a gnome, and there's plenty of others in there as well, with Bando the Lame, a halfling cleric from Daggerford, though I can't recall if he was a cleric of Lathander or Tymora offhand. Non-humans don't often worship human deities, and vice versa, but it can and does happen, and has for a long time as far as I can tell.
How that makes sense, the various pantheons having motive to expand their power at the expense of others... it makes perfect sense to me. Being content with your current situation comes to mind, respecting the territory and cultures of other, making sure the other guy doesn't do it to you as you try to do it to them, operating by the idea of just because you can not meaning you should... I can think of more reasons why they wouldn't than I can of why they would to be honest. Their worshippers might be a different story, but as far as I can tell, there isn't much will to go invading or spreading over the continent with armies when merchants make you more gold and require less of an army to police an empire that will inevitable collapse, which it surely will, and which the bones of the empires that came before (which there certainly isn't a shortage of) are ample proof of.
As to constantly needing to grow their worshippers... why? I don't recall seeing that written anyway, that they need to do this in order to continue existing. Maintain their power base, sure... keep others from poaching their worshippers, sure... constantly grow or die, not really.
As to Kelemvor and the other death gods... I don't see a conflict really. I'm not terribly familiar with the lore surrounding him, but any notion that he handles death for every species and every culture on Abeir-Toril strikes me as wishful thinking at best, and just plain wrong-headed at worst. I don't even see why there has to be a conflict. I'd view it like dung beetles myself... they're common as hell, but there's a lot of different species, and plenty of crap to go around to support them all. But largely, they don't compete because they don't intersect.
My own view is that it doesn't make sense only when modern views get in the way of the larger picture. We tend to view the world in terms of scarcity these days, of limited resources that must be viciously competed over to prevent others from taking them away from us, so we can make a profit and dominate everything in sight. There's never enough to satisfy... rather like that gaping hole in the hearts of men that was mentioned in Hellboy 2. In Faerun, I don't think that has to be, much less is the case. Despite the monsters and villains, largely, I'd say it was a much better world than the one we live in now because they do seem to have learned the value of sharing with others.
Nai_Calus-
As for why an Elven wizard would worship Corellon rather than Mystra... Why in the name of the Seldarine would he worship some inferior human goddess who doesn't understand him or his connection to the Weave?
Because Mystra *WAS* the Weave. If the Elves had a connection to the Weave, then they also had a direct connection to her. All of Elven Magic (pre-Spellplague) was based off of the Weave, perhaps with a notable exception being High Magic - but even then it is still debatable.
If you want to look at what magic was like without the Weave, look at Maztica. The magic there was not Weave based, and of course they were steamrolled as a result.
So you have an Elven wizard faced with the following: All of your magic (minus perhaps High Magic) comes from the Weave. You can worship Corellon who has absolutely zero power or control over the Weave, and if he's like other deities in other Pantheons he's using the Weave to send spells to his clerics... Or you can worship the source of all your power and magic.
Sure, she's not Elven. On the other hand she's a deity and is beyond race and mortals all together.
Go beyond Elves for a moment and look at the Mulhorandi. Why worship Isis when you have Mystra? The list goes on.
You can always make excuses or give this reason or that... Ao is one such reason, but at a certain point it becomes an exercise in eye rolling because the excuses become obvious: you're trying to patch up a system that inherently does not make sense.
Stigger-
I don't have a problem with a large number of deities. My issue is one with the system that was established and the logical repercussions of the system. I do not disagree with the first part of your post.
As cultures develop they will ultimately have unique and different gods that represent their respective culture. However, as cultures intermingle through trade, warfare and integration their gods go with them. Some gods fall to the wayside and die off, others undergo transformations to suit the new environment, and others simply grow in power.
To take your hunter-gather society as an example, they may worship a primal spirit deity of the hunt. The spirit represents all aspects of the hunt, both negative and positive. Ultimately these hunter-gatherers are conquered by a more civilized people, and their primal spirit deity becomes Malar and begins to intermingle with the gods of the civilized folk.
Or you could have a peaceful and gentle deity of the water (and the sea in particular) in Eldath, who is gradually displaced over several generations by Umberlee, reducing Eldath to a deity of peaceful springs and lakes.
This is all natural and inevitable even in the real world. As cultures intermingle through whatever means, the worship of their gods also undergoes changes. The gods must always be relevant to the people that worship them in order to maintain that worship. If they fail to do this then another will come along to replace them.
Thus you end up with the Mystra / Corellon conundrum. If you're an elf with a supernatural connection to magic and the Weave, then by definition you have a supernatural connection to Mystra. How do you square that off with Corellon? Why wouldn't he feel at least threatened to some minor extent by Mystra?
This brings me to the next part of your post dealing with the line in the sand. This line is an artificial construction, created to explain away the issues that I am bringing up in my posts. Ignore the gods for a moment and simply look at their clergy.
Let us say a large number of followers of Tempus were in Chessenta. Mulhorand is conquering Unther. Anhur's clergy is playing a major role. How do the priests of Tempus react to the faithful of Anhur?
I personally foresee two potential outcomes. One is peaceful and the other would likely be violent. The peaceful outcome is heretical. The followers of Tempus look upon Anhur and claim that Anhur is really Tempus simply under a different name. This is false, of course, but an acceptable belief. If this belief spreads then you could potentially – over time – see Tempus and Anhur merge as deities. On the other hand, you have the potentially violent outcome. I believe this outcome is much more likely, based upon the history Tempus has had with Garagos – of which his clergy would also be familiar – and in this scenario the followers of Tempus look upon Anhur as another Garagos. He is a rival deity, a potential usurper to Tempus' rightful role as the god of war. His faithful must be defeated upon the battlefield to prove that Tempus is indeed the rightful god of war.
It has nothing to do with real world politics, and everything to do with the system that is established. The system clearly states that there can only be one god above demigod holding the same portfolio. It also states that you grow in power by having more worshipers. In order to have more worshipers you must not only expand your portfolio, but also expand your spheres of influence. You must win converts, and the more zealous the better – a zealot likely empowers you more than someone who just occasionally tosses you a bit of lip service.
Sure, there will be some gods who seek to make peace. But those gods would quickly be trounced by those working the system. Eldath is likely one such god who'd try and avoid conflict. There is a reason she is a demigod, and in 4E she's no longer even that.
The gods by their very nature – I would argue that it is even their duty and entire reason for existence – is to be relevant to the lives of mortals. By the nature of their portfolios they are some what bi-polar and obsessed beings. Auril is obsessed about winter, ice, and cold for a good reason: she's the goddess of them. The more she makes them relevant, the more worshipers she wins over, the more worshipers she has the more powerful she becomes, and the more power she has the more she can make it relevant to the lives of mortals: that is the cycle.
If you throw in another deity of ice, cold, and winter – even if the god has a completely different take – it is a direct threat to her ability to expand her power, to make herself more relevant, to gain more worshipers, and that deity would (or should) view her in the same light.
I am also aware that the worship of deities outside of the typical racial pantheons has taken place in the past. However, it should be pointed out that these are rare occurrences. I think Tymora is perhaps one of the most notable as she's gained a foothold in Halfling culture. The cases you mentioned are so memorable because of their rarity. If you want to use real life as a basis for your example: look at real life. When different cultures intermingled they always brought with them their different faiths. Those faiths were sometimes incorporated into the area where they mixed, or the faith was deemed too outside the norms of the culture and society and the individuals persecuted as a result.
Why would a human not be drawn to Hanali Celanil over Sune as an example or vise versa? You could simply say, "Oh, well she's an Elven deity. Human's don't worship Elven deities." Well I guess I could go back to the examples you brought up, and point to Tymora's influence among the Halflings. Why would Sune not feel threatened?
Sure, you could have the two deities make an agreement among themselves – two chaotic deities making an agreement mind you – but then zoom down to the worshiper level of things. Imagine an Elven Priest of Hanali Celanil establishing a temple in Waterdeep. The priest is charismatic, does great public works, and all sorts of things that draw the attention of humans, elves, halflings – all who live in Waterdeep. Is it conceivable to believe that NONE of them would perhaps be moved to give Hanali Celanil praise? Is it conceivable to believe that NONE or only a small handful would perhaps be inclined to worship her? Let us say that only a small handful – about 50 to 100 individuals all Humans take Hanali Celanil as their patron. How do you imagine this would make the Sunite clergy feel? Do you think Sune would sit by and let this happen? Or are we simply going to draw an invisible line in the dirt and pretend that Hanali Celanil would turn away potential worshipers?
You speak of respecting cultures, respecting the territory of others, and all those wonderful things. It sounds nice on paper, but I simply do not believe that is the way it will work in practice. It simply would not work that way. At all. Even if there are agreements made, all it will take is one or two deities to violate those agreements, and you must admit that at least some of them will. What happens then? Do the rivals of the deities who break the agreement sit back and do nothing? What about the deities who are now decreasing in power as their worshipers are taken away by the interloper? They've got to fight back somehow.
Deities -need- worshipers in order to grow and maintain their power. This was set down in stone after the ToT by Ao. However, I'd argue that it was already in existence long before. Ask Amaunator and Auppenser how well things are going for them with virtually no worshipers. (Well Amaunator pre-4E and pre-Lathander's taking his name.)
I simply think it is a pipe dream to believe that the gods would get along when the system itself is designed to cause conflict between them. The system ensures that they are always embroiled in some conflict and can never act totally unimpeded either as a result of rivals or allies. This is a good thing as it prevents them from achieving too much power. It is a natural built-in balancing mechanism.
As for the bit about Kelemvor... it is a result of all the souls of the dead going to the Fugue Plane which he rules. At least pre-4E. Kelemvor runs the Fugue Plane, but basically since all souls go there other death gods approach Kelemvor to collect the souls of their respective races. This means that Yurtrus, the Orc deity of death and disease, has to send servitors into Kelemvor's plane to pick up dead Orcs so that he can do his duties.
How could Yurtrus not view this as an insult? Why do all the souls go to Kelemvor's Realm? Why do they not go directly to Yurtrus' Realm if they worshiped an Orcish deity?
The Fugue Plane acted as a cosmic lobby where the souls of the dead gathered and waited to be picked up by the servitors of the various gods. How does Yurtrus explain this to his faithful? "Yeah, so here is what happens. When you die you're going to have to wait for me in this human god's domain. I'll send somebody to pick you up, but don't worry he's a really swell guy and we have this arrangement."
I'm sure that goes over really well. ;)
Most likely, of course, Yurtrus simply lies, but what does Osiris and Urogalan, the Mulhorandi and Halfling deities of death or the dead respectfully, tell their faithful? Do they lie directly, or do they merely tell lies of omission? If they do not lie, then how does it make the faithful of those deities feel that their god is second-rate to some other god from another pantheon?
This is the way the Afterlife worked in 3E. Read page 358, the Afterlife in the FRCS.
The same argument holds for those who use magic through the Weave (and thus through the body of Mystra), but have gods of magic in their respective racial / cultural pantheons.
In the end, I think you are projecting wishful thinking and a world view onto the setting, and not looking at it with a properly critical eye. Forget about what you want it to be like for a moment, and simply look at the way it is presented (prior to 4E) – then ask yourself if it makes any logical sense. I do not think anyone can look at it logically, and then come back and say it makes sense – I simply do not believe it, because it is completely illogical.
You cannot have a system in which you say the following:
1. Most if not all of your power is going to come from your worshipers.
2. No other deity can hold the same portfolio and be above demigod.
You have a recipe for conflict, as there are too many gods to prevent them from breaking any agreements they may or may not have. You also create incentives to spread your faith, thus encouraging you NOT to have agreements or to break them.
If you radically change the way the gods work and the system under which they exist, what you propose could potentially work just fine. You'd either end up with one of two systems. The first is something similar to Eberron where gods are so distant that you're not even sure they're real or not, and the second rule dealing with portfolios done away with. The second is to simply do away with both the rules, which would potentially flood the Realms with an endless amount of gods. How would you like 10 different gods of war all in the same pantheon?
*glances at above post*
Meldread, I think you just became the Exarch of Detailed Responses. Oghma must love you. I'm not even going to touch that (because it isn't directed at me), but:
Sure, there will be some gods who seek to make peace. But those gods would quickly be trounced by those working the system. Eldath is likely one such god who'd try and avoid conflict. There is a reason she is a demigod, and in 4E she's no longer even that.
Lesser power. I know, I know, nit-picking...
How would you like 10 different gods of war all in the same pantheon?
Yes please.
I don't have a problem with a large number of deities. My issue is one with the system that was established and the logical repercussions of the system. I do not disagree with the first part of your post.
As cultures develop they will ultimately have unique and different gods that represent their respective culture. However, as cultures intermingle through trade, warfare and integration their gods go with them. Some gods fall to the wayside and die off, others undergo transformations to suit the new environment, and others simply grow in power.
Sure... and we've seen that in the blending of the various human pantheons into one overarching human super-pantheon. But that degree of intermingling just hadn't happened with isolationistic Mulhorand up until very recently (pre-Spellplague obviously). While there was a certain degree of trade, it wasn't exactly flowing fast and furious, and was fairly controlled as I recall things.
I would also tend towards the thought that the Adama over on the Golden Water were evidence of this sort of thing happening, as Faerunian and Zakharan beliefs intermingled. I don't really have a problem with it occurring among a given species myself, but species lines I think are harder (though not impossible) to make the jump with just due to differing ways of looking at the world, not just by culture but by physiology as well. Humans look for patterns, and will find them even when they aren't actually present, and as such, that's going to shape our religious and societal beliefs. But with a species that doesn't do that, their methodologies of reasoning and rationalizing things would likely be considerably different, despite surface similarities. That forms most of the basis of my difficulty with there not being distinctly racial pantheons really.
To take your hunter-gather society as an example, they may worship a primal spirit deity of the hunt. The spirit represents all aspects of the hunt, both negative and positive. Ultimately these hunter-gatherers are conquered by a more civilized people, and their primal spirit deity becomes Malar and begins to intermingle with the gods of the civilized folk.
Or you could have a peaceful and gentle deity of the water (and the sea in particular) in Eldath, who is gradually displaced over several generations by Umberlee, reducing Eldath to a deity of peaceful springs and lakes.
This is all natural and inevitable even in the real world. As cultures intermingle through whatever means, the worship of their gods also undergoes changes. The gods must always be relevant to the people that worship them in order to maintain that worship. If they fail to do this then another will come along to replace them.
Sure. I'd agree with you on this for the most part. A deity who doesn't serve a purpose within their society any longer is either doomed to fade away into the past, or needs to find a new culture in which to continue, with the former being the far more likely. Personally, I think there was ample evidence of this line of reasoning being present in the Realms, as evidenced with Garagos giving way to Tempus, who's already acknowledged Red Knight as his heir apparant when his time to fade comes. That relationship implies tacit acknowledgement on the part of at least one deity that their end will come and they will one day be relegated to minor status until they fade away into the astral graveyard of divinity.
Thus you end up with the Mystra / Corellon conundrum. If you're an elf with a supernatural connection to magic and the Weave, then by definition you have a supernatural connection to Mystra. How do you square that off with Corellon? Why wouldn't he feel at least threatened to some minor extent by Mystra?
Because they have a symbiotic relationship would be my answer... kind of like a banana slug and a redwood, one doesn't thrive without the other.
This brings me to the next part of your post dealing with the line in the sand. This line is an artificial construction, created to explain away the issues that I am bringing up in my posts. Ignore the gods for a moment and simply look at their clergy.
Let us say a large number of followers of Tempus were in Chessenta. Mulhorand is conquering Unther. Anhur's clergy is playing a major role. How do the priests of Tempus react to the faithful of Anhur?
I personally foresee two potential outcomes. One is peaceful and the other would likely be violent. The peaceful outcome is heretical. The followers of Tempus look upon Anhur and claim that Anhur is really Tempus simply under a different name. This is false, of course, but an acceptable belief. If this belief spreads then you could potentially – over time – see Tempus and Anhur merge as deities. On the other hand, you have the potentially violent outcome. I believe this outcome is much more likely, based upon the history Tempus has had with Garagos – of which his clergy would also be familiar – and in this scenario the followers of Tempus look upon Anhur as another Garagos. He is a rival deity, a potential usurper to Tempus' rightful role as the god of war. His faithful must be defeated upon the battlefield to prove that Tempus is indeed the rightful god of war.
I would disagree here actually. That Tempus didn't destroy Garagos outright should be proof enough. As warfare evolves, so does its deities. In Faerun, that has meant the passing of the mantle, and while it may be done peacefully or with conflict, the result is inevitable. One of these days, Red Knight will be the primary war deity, and eventually, she'll pass on the mantle to someone else better suited to the evolution of battle on Faerun.
It has nothing to do with real world politics, and everything to do with the system that is established. The system clearly states that there can only be one god above demigod holding the same portfolio. It also states that you grow in power by having more worshipers. In order to have more worshipers you must not only expand your portfolio, but also expand your spheres of influence. You must win converts, and the more zealous the better – a zealot likely empowers you more than someone who just occasionally tosses you a bit of lip service.
Sure, there will be some gods who seek to make peace. But those gods would quickly be trounced by those working the system. Eldath is likely one such god who'd try and avoid conflict. There is a reason she is a demigod, and in 4E she's no longer even that.
The gods by their very nature – I would argue that it is even their duty and entire reason for existence – is to be relevant to the lives of mortals. By the nature of their portfolios they are some what bi-polar and obsessed beings. Auril is obsessed about winter, ice, and cold for a good reason: she's the goddess of them. The more she makes them relevant, the more worshipers she wins over, the more worshipers she has the more powerful she becomes, and the more power she has the more she can make it relevant to the lives of mortals: that is the cycle.
If you throw in another deity of ice, cold, and winter – even if the god has a completely different take – it is a direct threat to her ability to expand her power, to make herself more relevant, to gain more worshipers, and that deity would (or should) view her in the same light.
The trouble with zealots however is their likelihood to get into fights with others, fights you may not want or need, or even be ready for. Better the guy who gives you semi-ferverent lip service than the guy who plunges you into holy wars and gets hundreds or thousands of your faithful killed in a divine conflict with a deity you don't necessarily have much against. That most people don't worship a single deity, preferring to venerate those applicable to the task at hand, should be enough evidence of this philosophy in action.
I am also aware that the worship of deities outside of the typical racial pantheons has taken place in the past. However, it should be pointed out that these are rare occurrences. I think Tymora is perhaps one of the most notable as she's gained a foothold in Halfling culture. The cases you mentioned are so memorable because of their rarity. If you want to use real life as a basis for your example: look at real life. When different cultures intermingled they always brought with them their different faiths. Those faiths were sometimes incorporated into the area where they mixed, or the faith was deemed too outside the norms of the culture and society and the individuals persecuted as a result.
Why would a human not be drawn to Hanali Celanil over Sune as an example or vise versa? You could simply say, "Oh, well she's an Elven deity. Human's don't worship Elven deities." Well I guess I could go back to the examples you brought up, and point to Tymora's influence among the Halflings. Why would Sune not feel threatened?
Tymora is considered a part of the Hin pantheon these days actually. And they weren't actually that rare if you read through Volo's Guides. Places like Corm Orp didn't seem to be that big of an aberration, and Sheela Peryroyal was definitely allied with Chauntea. As to Hanali Celanil taking on human worshippers... I see little preventing it beyond the insularity of elves. Given that there were indeed temples to the Seldarine in places like Silverymoon and Waterdeep (despite the protests of the local nobles), it seems unlikely that there aren't at least a few human worshippers out there.
Sure, you could have the two deities make an agreement among themselves – two chaotic deities making an agreement mind you – but then zoom down to the worshiper level of things. Imagine an Elven Priest of Hanali Celanil establishing a temple in Waterdeep. The priest is charismatic, does great public works, and all sorts of things that draw the attention of humans, elves, halflings – all who live in Waterdeep. Is it conceivable to believe that NONE of them would perhaps be moved to give Hanali Celanil praise? Is it conceivable to believe that NONE or only a small handful would perhaps be inclined to worship her? Let us say that only a small handful – about 50 to 100 individuals all Humans take Hanali Celanil as their patron. How do you imagine this would make the Sunite clergy feel? Do you think Sune would sit by and let this happen? Or are we simply going to draw an invisible line in the dirt and pretend that Hanali Celanil would turn away potential worshipers?
I'd say they would worship her actually. As to the reaction of the Sunites... I'd say it would be more a reaction of new allies to helping make the city even more splendorous than it would be hostility. Cattiness and one-up-manship (Sune's Pool! No, Hanali's Pool! a Lliiran breaking in and reminding them its Evergold and getting a sweetroll chucked at her head), sure, but relatively peaceful cooperation would be more the norm.
You speak of respecting cultures, respecting the territory of others, and all those wonderful things. It sounds nice on paper, but I simply do not believe that is the way it will work in practice. It simply would not work that way. At all. Even if there are agreements made, all it will take is one or two deities to violate those agreements, and you must admit that at least some of them will. What happens then? Do the rivals of the deities who break the agreement sit back and do nothing? What about the deities who are now decreasing in power as their worshipers are taken away by the interloper? They've got to fight back somehow.
It sounds more than workable to me. Not here, not where you can't have a shred of unclaimed land anywhere without starting a war over it if its even vaguely habitable, but in a place where huge swaths of land lay unclaimed, it seems considerably more workable and likely. That there's places like that should be more than enough evidence that you're not dealing with cultures that are almost nothing like Earth's at all, otherwise the whole of the land would be divided up and nothing like the Fields of the Dead or the North would be allowed at all... no Shining Plains, no Shaar, nor any other place you can think of that lies outside of the ownership of a political body.
Presumably, the deities would mirror their worshippers in that respect, and don't see a need to go ganking each other across deific lines.
Deities -need- worshipers in order to grow and maintain their power. This was set down in stone after the ToT by Ao. However, I'd argue that it was already in existence long before. Ask Amaunator and Auppenser how well things are going for them with virtually no worshipers. (Well Amaunator pre-4E and pre-Lathander's taking his name.)
I simply think it is a pipe dream to believe that the gods would get along when the system itself is designed to cause conflict between them. The system ensures that they are always embroiled in some conflict and can never act totally unimpeded either as a result of rivals or allies. This is a good thing as it prevents them from achieving too much power. It is a natural built-in balancing mechanism.
I'd say it was more there to enforce being responsive to their worshippers needs than to simply engage in gotta-catch-'em-al behaviour. In other words, you have to take care of the toys you have, and pay attention to them once you have them. Having tons of worshippers makes that much harder than a smaller, more devout flock. While I'd agree there is a certain amount of poaching going on, I'd also say it was much more in their interests to engage in conflicts of prosperity rather than conflicts of bloodshed. Conflict doesn't have to be violent, and given that lack of widespread religious war, I'd say more often than not it wasn't in the Realms.
As for the bit about Kelemvor... it is a result of all the souls of the dead going to the Fugue Plane which he rules. At least pre-4E. Kelemvor runs the Fugue Plane, but basically since all souls go there other death gods approach Kelemvor to collect the souls of their respective races. This means that Yurtrus, the Orc deity of death and disease, has to send servitors into Kelemvor's plane to pick up dead Orcs so that he can do his duties.
How could Yurtrus not view this as an insult? Why do all the souls go to Kelemvor's Realm? Why do they not go directly to Yurtrus' Realm if they worshiped an Orcish deity?
The Fugue Plane acted as a cosmic lobby where the souls of the dead gathered and waited to be picked up by the servitors of the various gods. How does Yurtrus explain this to his faithful? "Yeah, so here is what happens. When you die you're going to have to wait for me in this human god's domain. I'll send somebody to pick you up, but don't worry he's a really swell guy and we have this arrangement."
I'm sure that goes over really well. ;)
Most likely, of course, Yurtrus simply lies, but what does Osiris and Urogalan, the Mulhorandi and Halfling deities of death or the dead respectfully, tell their faithful? Do they lie directly, or do they merely tell lies of omission? If they do not lie, then how does it make the faithful of those deities feel that their god is second-rate to some other god from another pantheon?
This is the way the Afterlife worked in 3E. Read page 358, the Afterlife in the FRCS.
It was page 258 by the way... there is no page 358.
As to what it said there... my take is that they weren't under Kelemvor's control unless they either worshipped him, or they were False or Faithless. I'd say most of the death gods at least kept small Realms on the Fugue, just because that's the 'central warehouse' for the dead. His domain on the Fugue is the City of Judgement. It says as much in the section of the same name. Nowhere does it say he rules the entirety of the Fugue, or even imply it.
The same argument holds for those who use magic through the Weave (and thus through the body of Mystra), but have gods of magic in their respective racial / cultural pantheons.
In the end, I think you are projecting wishful thinking and a world view onto the setting, and not looking at it with a properly critical eye. Forget about what you want it to be like for a moment, and simply look at the way it is presented (prior to 4E) – then ask yourself if it makes any logical sense. I do not think anyone can look at it logically, and then come back and say it makes sense – I simply do not believe it, because it is completely illogical.
From a cynical perspective, I could see where it wouldn't make much sense, because the logic relies on certain assumptions being true, which the setup flies in the face of. From a less cynical perspective, I think it makes a great deal of sense, so long as you abandon that whole cynical world of scarcity perspective for something a bit more optimistic and hopeful. It depends on what you consider givens about human nature, and becomes more a case of the world viewed though a ideological and philosophical lense.
You cannot have a system in which you say the following:
1. Most if not all of your power is going to come from your worshipers.
2. No other deity can hold the same portfolio and be above demigod.
You have a recipe for conflict, as there are too many gods to prevent them from breaking any agreements they may or may not have. You also create incentives to spread your faith, thus encouraging you NOT to have agreements or to break them.
If you radically change the way the gods work and the system under which they exist, what you propose could potentially work just fine. You'd either end up with one of two systems. The first is something similar to Eberron where gods are so distant that you're not even sure they're real or not, and the second rule dealing with portfolios done away with. The second is to simply do away with both the rules, which would potentially flood the Realms with an endless amount of gods. How would you like 10 different gods of war all in the same pantheon?
As I said, that depends greatly on what you consider the primary motivation and reaction to those two. If you ascribe to a viewpoint in which it is preferrable to have a smaller flock that's more devout who you take excellent care of, then you're probably going to have much better growth potential and staying power compared to a deity who gets a huge flock and just takes adequate care of them. The ones with the huge flocks are the ones most in danger despite their success, while the ones with the smaller flocks are much more secure, but not as powerful. Its more a matter of husbandry than conquest, at least in all of the reading I've done on the divine in Faerun. They're divine entities looking for staying power, not profit-obsessed corporations who make bad long-term decisions in order to reap short-term profits is my take on them.
I should point out that I'm not advocating for one side or another in the debate. My argument is one that rests upon the system as it existed in 3E, and presumably still exists – at least to one extent or another – in 4E. I am not in favor of a single universal world-spanning pantheon. However, I do firmly believe based upon the system in which the gods operate that it is inevitable as people migrate (through trade, war, and natural nomadic migration) across the world – taking their gods with them.
As people migrate into different lands with different gods, bringing their own, certain gods fall into favor while others fall out of favor. Those that learn to adapt continue to exist, while those who no longer find themselves relevant to their worshipers fade away into oblivion and the pages of history.
Ultimately, I believe that this is a good thing for mortals. It keeps the gods relevant and it is a system that polices itself. It keeps the gods from overreaching, ignoring mortals, and becoming too self-absorbed. It is not perfect.
Imagine Toril in about 2,000 years with advanced magical technology that gives them some of the capabilities we currently possess in our modern world. The ability to travel and communicate over vast distances being critical. A more stable world in which, while wars exist, that there are stable powerful nations capable of keeping some measure of world-wide stability.
In such a world, where the gods are real and exist, there would definitely be a great thinning of the gods as all races intermingle and everything becomes much more cosmopolitan.
This is where the Realms was heading pre-4E. However, as a result of the events leading up to 4E they are now going through a Dark Age type period. This is actually GOOD for multiple pantheons, as it ensures that people migrate less and become more focused on life locally. Things are now too dangerous for trade to exist as it once did, thus helping to ensure that local gods flourish while foreign gods are less accepted.
I should point out that I'm not advocating for one side or another in the debate.
Funnily, I agree with most of what you said there, even the bits I snipped for brevity's sake.
Which I think is why I do take so much exception with the pantheon condensing in 4e, because it doesn't make much sense in the wake of the Spellplague. Had they said "Deity X" got wasted in the process and "Deity Y" took over their worshippers and responsibilities while the world recovered, I could have accepted it pretty easily without much fuss beyond "man that sucks for ". But the whole "always was, man those elves and dwarves are idiots for not realizing they were worshipping human deities, even when those humans were still living in caves and farming with giraffe tailbones" thing really bugs the hells out of me.
Stigger-
"I don't really have a problem with it occurring among a given species myself, but species lines I think are harder (though not impossible) to make the jump with just due to differing ways of looking at the world, not just by culture but by physiology as well. Humans look for patterns, and will find them even when they aren't actually present, and as such, that's going to shape our religious and societal beliefs. But with a species that doesn't do that, their methodologies of reasoning and rationalizing things would likely be considerably different, despite surface similarities. That forms most of the basis of my difficulty with there not being distinctly racial pantheons really."
I agree. If a species is so alien from humans (or whatever other race you want to measure them by) then their gods are going to likewise be alien. I do not dispute this at all. Indeed, there would be difficulties in having a human deity embrace such a race, not to say that it is impossible, just difficult.
That being said: what among elves, dwarves, halflings and the like make them so alien to humans? Their individual psychologies, while differing slightly, still remain VERY human - human enough where the different deities of different races could experience some cross-racial worship. Naturally, this would only take place in areas where (to go back to my Hanali Celanil example) Elves and humans intermingled enough for it to spread.
However, make no mistake: if Hanali Celanil were able to gain a foot hold among humans it has the potential to spread to the larger race as a whole. First regionally, and then outward through the same migration patterns that cause all religions to spread and flourish. This in turn, due to the rule where only one deity above demigod can hold the same portfolio, will cause issues with Sune.
"Because they have a symbiotic relationship would be my answer... kind of like a banana slug and a redwood, one doesn't thrive without the other."
I am sure Corellon likes being compared to a banana slug. :P
I could accept that answer, if (and only if) there was clear evidence that a symbiotic relationship was necessary. I do not believe such a relationship was necessary at all. Magic (although weaker) has always existed without the Weave. The Weave just made things easy.
Why didn't Corellon (as an example) after the Time of Troubles advocate that he be made the god of the Weave? Why didn't other deities (Azuth included!) step forward to assert their right to be the god of the Weave? As gods of magic, each of them had some valid claim – more claim than Midnight, a human who admittedly didn't know up from down. The same thing could be said after the death of Mystryl.
Certainly, any god with half a brain would see the advantages of having the Weave under their control, because they would have seen the advantage it bestowed upon the various incarnations of Mystra.
My line of reasoning says that this action simply does not make any sense at all. Perhaps not all gods would have reached out for it, but each of them should have had a reason to step back and not make the attempt. Mystra clearly had an advantage over every other god of magic, in that the vast majority of wizards were using the Weave to cast their magic (because it was so damn useful and effective), and the deities (at least some of them – if not most of them) were using the Weave to channel divine power to their followers.
It's the difference between high speed internet and dial-up. The Weave was high speed and all other forms of getting magic to mortals was dial-up.
"I would disagree here actually. That Tempus didn't destroy Garagos outright should be proof enough. As warfare evolves, so does its deities. In Faerun, that has meant the passing of the mantle, and while it may be done peacefully or with conflict, the result is inevitable. One of these days, Red Knight will be the primary war deity, and eventually, she'll pass on the mantle to someone else better suited to the evolution of battle on Faerun."
I do not disagree that deities can pass on portfolios or responsibilities peacefully. However, I am much more cynical than you it seems. :P
This is how I see the whole Tempus / Garagos / Red Knight situation. Now, if I am not mistaken everyone thought Targus (Garagos) was dead. However, a demon was attempting to impersonate Targus and this in turn had the effect of resurrecting Targus as Garagos, likely through the resurgence in faith. This took place around Westgate, if I am not mistaken. This was a relatively recent event. The worshipers of Tempus and Garagos fight each other frequently.
Garagos does not seem to be as 'stable' as he was in his Targus incarnation, and although he is CN he is very close to becoming CE. I would submit that this is the result of the method in which he was resurrected, and those that worship him are in some ways corrupting his worship.
Garagos / Targus embodies a more barbaric style of warfare. Tempus seems to embody a more medieval style of warfare, and Red Knight seems to embody a more Roman-esqe style of warfare (highly organized, disciplined, and regimented). There is certainly room in the Realms at the moment for all three. Tempus does not seem particularly interested in smiting Garagos at the moment because if he did he'd be forced (at least this is the assumption) to subsume the aspects of war Garagos represents.
However, the relationship Tempus has with Red Knight – I can see how you'd view it that way, but I have a different take. Keep in mind that Red Knight is not a true deity of war. She is merely a deity of strategy, tactics, and planning. This is important in war but she is not an actual war deity. Additionally, this is not Tempus' preferred style of warfare.
Thus, by elevating Red Knight he actually PRESERVES his portfolio of war while keeping himself relevant. Red Knight is subservient to him, and their relationship is one akin to a father and daughter. Their churches are likewise close. This ensures that at the start of every major battle, both Red Knight and Tempus will be invoked. Red Knight will be invoked to grant wisdom in creating the perfect plan, coming up with superior tactics, and executing them just right. Tempus will be evoked to favor the weapons and shields of the warriors doing the battle. They are sharing power, but ultimately Red Knight becomes a god of officers while Tempus remains the god of the soldier on the front lines.
Were Tempus NOT to embrace Red Knight, ultimately – the scenario you foresee would come to pass. He would eventually either have to adapt or become irrelevant, and fade the same way Targus did. It was a brilliant move on the part of Tempus, but I do not (in any way) see this as Tempus quietly going off into the sunset.
I see it as a very cynical and brilliant move to ensure that he remains relevant for many generations to come.
"The trouble with zealots however is their likelihood to get into fights with others, fights you may not want or need, or even be ready for. Better the guy who gives you semi-ferverent lip service than the guy who plunges you into holy wars and gets hundreds or thousands of your faithful killed in a divine conflict with a deity you don't necessarily have much against. That most people don't worship a single deity, preferring to venerate those applicable to the task at hand, should be enough evidence of this philosophy in action."
Most people have a patron deity, but you are correct in that most people give lip service to all deities depending on the situation. I was not trying to say that deities ONLY want Zealots, they clearly do not, just that a Zealot in terms of power to the deity is likely going to generate more. Thus, Zealots are useful. Additionally, Zealots – because they are so devoted – are also easier to control.
"I'd say they would worship her actually. As to the reaction of the Sunites... I'd say it would be more a reaction of new allies to helping make the city even more splendorous than it would be hostility. Cattiness and one-up-manship (Sune's Pool! No, Hanali's Pool! a Lliiran breaking in and reminding them its Evergold and getting a sweetroll chucked at her head), sure, but relatively peaceful cooperation would be more the norm."
I think that's how it would start out, simply based off the personalities of the gods involved. However, imagine if the worship of Hanali Celanil actually began to spread. Imagine if Sunites began to leave the faith of Sune to worship Hanali. Imagine the enemies of Sune, seeing this take place, began to nudge heresies that were purposefully designed to cause conflict between the two deities. Suddenly, you have a heresy claiming that Hanali is the true goddess of beauty, and Sune is merely the human aspect – like the beautiful reflection in a mirror.
Common folk begin to become confused, and Sune begins to feel the loss in power. It's no longer a small handful. What began as a trickle has increased to something more. Somehow, I don't see Sune giggling and chucking sweetrolls anymore, because she's being forced into the battle for her very existence.
"It sounds more than workable to me. Not here, not where you can't have a shred of unclaimed land anywhere without starting a war over it if its even vaguely habitable, but in a place where huge swaths of land lay unclaimed, it seems considerably more workable and likely. That there's places like that should be more than enough evidence that you're not dealing with cultures that are almost nothing like Earth's at all, otherwise the whole of the land would be divided up and nothing like the Fields of the Dead or the North would be allowed at all... no Shining Plains, no Shaar, nor any other place you can think of that lies outside of the ownership of a political body.
Presumably, the deities would mirror their worshippers in that respect, and don't see a need to go ganking each other across deific lines."
Oh, I agree that is the way things are -now-. It was never my argument that this was all going to take place sometime in the near or immediate future. It's a process that takes place over centuries. Imagine, for example, something like the Lightning Rail in Eberron was to be introduced on Toril. You could travel vast distances VERY quickly. Hell, wait – axe the rail. Just have portals linking places together. Or some other type of magical technology.
Think of it as a magical technical revolution, which causes globalization like we see today. Going back to my previous post (which I made before I saw this one!) 4E FR has tossed the Realms back into the Dark Ages. However, pre-4E this is the direction I saw the world eventually evolving. It may still evolve in that direction, and as that happens you'll begin to see more and more clashes between deities of different pantheons.
There may remain isolated pockets of different pantheons throughout the world, but by and large like what has taken place on Faerûn a uber pantheon is inevitable.
"I'd say it was more there to enforce being responsive to their worshippers needs than to simply engage in gotta-catch-'em-al behaviour. In other words, you have to take care of the toys you have, and pay attention to them once you have them. Having tons of worshippers makes that much harder than a smaller, more devout flock. While I'd agree there is a certain amount of poaching going on, I'd also say it was much more in their interests to engage in conflicts of prosperity rather than conflicts of bloodshed. Conflict doesn't have to be violent, and given that lack of widespread religious war, I'd say more often than not it wasn't in the Realms."
I'd agree that conflict more often than not isn't violent. Unless, of course, you were dealing with violent deities. If you're a goddess of peace, love, and happiness it is pretty much an abdication of your portfolios to rally together your faithful for a crusade against the other deity of peace, beauty and dance... all because she is poaching those who worship you as a peace deity.
However, also keep in mind that a lot that goes on is not up to the gods themselves. Mortals also have a vested interest in evangelism. Those reasons remain the same as they do for evangelism in the real world. Part of it is steeped in belief, but another part of it is more practical: the more that join the flock, the more power the flock has, the more wealth the flock has, the more influence the flock has, and the greater ability of the flocks leaders to accomplish their goals.
Going back to my above example dealing with the peace deities, you'd likely see varying amounts of political sabotage going on between the two faiths. Lots of one oneupmanship. Think of it as two popular girls in high school competing for attention over each other. It wouldn't be violent, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't get nasty – and hard feelings blossoming between the two deities as a result.
"As I said, that depends greatly on what you consider the primary motivation and reaction to those two. If you ascribe to a viewpoint in which it is preferrable to have a smaller flock that's more devout who you take excellent care of, then you're probably going to have much better growth potential and staying power compared to a deity who gets a huge flock and just takes adequate care of them. The ones with the huge flocks are the ones most in danger despite their success, while the ones with the smaller flocks are much more secure, but not as powerful. Its more a matter of husbandry than conquest, at least in all of the reading I've done on the divine in Faerun."
I believe both methods are valid paths to power. It's a matter of quality over quantity. If you make the assumption that zealots grant more power than lots of people giving lip service, then I guess you could easily be sustained by having a smaller flock of foaming-at-the-mouth zealots. :p
However, if you wanted to become a Greater Power, the easiest path to achieve it is to spread your influence outward. This means if you're worship is primarily based in – say – Calimshan, you're going to want to spread to Tethyr, Amn and all the way up to the Sword Coast, Waterdeep and the North – then head east.
I think in order to be truly successful you need a balance of both quality and quantity of worshipers. It cannot be all about quality, quality, quality – while completely ignoring quantity, and the reverse is also true.
The difference between the two points of view is one of moderate but steady expansion vs a very slow – if non-existent expansion (followed by stagnation) vs a rapid expansion (followed by an implosion).
I should point out that I'm not advocating for one side or another in the debate.
Funnily, I agree with most of what you said there, even the bits I snipped for brevity's sake.
Which I think is why I do take so much exception with the pantheon condensing in 4e, because it doesn't make much sense in the wake of the Spellplague. Had they said "Deity X" got wasted in the process and "Deity Y" took over their worshippers and responsibilities while the world recovered, I could have accepted it pretty easily without much fuss beyond "man that sucks for ". But the whole "always was, man those elves and dwarves are idiots for not realizing they were worshipping human deities, even when those humans were still living in caves and farming with giraffe tailbones" thing really bugs the hells out of me.
I'd agree the way 4E did things didn't make sense. It wasn't logical. However, I suppose it -could- be explained in logical terms. At least in some cases.
For the Elves, as an example, with the loss of Evermeet many of the Elven Deities lost TONS of their worshipers. It was likely impossible to sustain their divinity in the Realms due to the first rule. I imagine the whole Sehanine Moonbow = Selune thing being a heresy that developed later after Sehanine could no longer sustain her presence in the Realms.
In my Realms, this heresy exists among the Elves of Silverymoon. They believe that Selune is really Sehanine, or rather Sehanine was an aspect of Selune that returned to her after the Spellplague. This was a heresy supported by the Selunites of Silverymoon and supported by the goddess herself – all for obvious reasons.
This heresy is not widespread yet, but it has gained some traction in other areas of the Realms where elven and human populations live alongside each other. It is outlawed in Myth Drannor and decried as an outright heresy. Selunites would not find themselves welcomed there as a result. (Of course, most non-Elves would not find themselves welcomed in Myth Drannor... but that's another story all together.)
Logically, though, you should see the deities becoming much more regional. You should also see some new deities popping-up in regional locations. This all exists in my Realms, but of course my Realms differs greatly from the 4E cannon. :P
For the Elves, as an example, with the loss of Evermeet many of the Elven Deities lost TONS of their worshipers. It was likely impossible to sustain their divinity in the Realms due to the first rule. I imagine the whole Sehanine Moonbow = Selune thing being a heresy that developed later after Sehanine could no longer sustain her presence in the Realms.
I don't mean to intrude, but why would Evermeet's departure from the material plane be such a blow? As long as it's still in Realmspace, which it is, the gods are fine. They didn't really lose tons of faithful. Very few elves actually died in the process, if I recall, so it's not like they took a serious blow. The Seldarine shouldn't have lost any noticeable amount of power.
EDIT: After checking the FRCG, it appears there were almost no, if any, casualties resulting from Evermeet's transition. So the Seldarine didn't lose any power from a spike in the worshipper death-rate.
I agree with the aspect thing, but i think they could of worded it better. Instead of saying, for instance, that Sehanine was an aspect of of Selune, they should of said they are both aspects. The way they write it up it makes it sound like ones the real goddess and ones just an aspect. I think it depends on your point of view, the elves see Sehanine as the real goddess, and the humans see her as an aspect. Really i think its wrong to label Selune as a human goddess, because she was around before the humans was even created. It can all get kind of confusing. I see it as kind of like in the Sandman comics (not sure if everyones read that, if you havnt you should!). Morpheus was an aspect of Dream. Dream took on different aspects depending on who was looking. Thats the way i see it. Neither Selune or Sehanine is the Moon, they're both just aspects of it.
We're kinda gettin off topic here. Lets get back to the Seldarine specificaly. They've all been covered except Rillifane, so whats everyones opinion there? Im going with a Primal Archfey Spirit. Any one else?
Lord Manshoon you mentioned Realmspace, and that got me thinking, Did the Spellplague effect any other planets in Realmspace? Or what about the Crystal Speres? They've been ignored since 2e and the demise of Spelljammer, so do they still exsist? or did the spellplague wipe them out too? I always hated the Crystal Sphere thing and thought D&D worlds should have normal cosmologies not be in a giant bubble. Oooop im getting off topic again.
For the Elves, as an example, with the loss of Evermeet many of the Elven Deities lost TONS of their worshipers. It was likely impossible to sustain their divinity in the Realms due to the first rule. I imagine the whole Sehanine Moonbow = Selune thing being a heresy that developed later after Sehanine could no longer sustain her presence in the Realms.
I don't mean to intrude, but why would Evermeet's departure from the material plane be such a blow? As long as it's still in Realmspace, which it is, the gods are fine. They didn't really lose tons of faithful. Very few elves actually died in the process, if I recall, so it's not like they took a serious blow. The Seldarine shouldn't have lost any noticeable amount of power.
EDIT: After checking the FRCG, it appears there were almost no, if any, casualties resulting from Evermeet's transition. So the Seldarine didn't lose any power from a spike in the worshipper death-rate.
Keep in mind that I'm speaking strictly for my own version of the Realms here. None of that is cannon. What is cannon is what is stated in the FRCG, which of course I think is total crap – which is why I've ignored it. :P
However, let me explain it so that it makes sense.
First of all, you have to understand that Ao is a regulation guy. He's the one who created all these rules and whatnot. I'm not a big fan of Ao, but I kept him around in my Realms simply because he was too important to remove and I couldn't predict the repercussions of his removal.
...anyway...
Ao doesn't have any power outside of Toril. He has no power on the planes. He has no power on the Shadowfell, the Feywild (Faerie), the Hells, the Abyss, the Elemental Chaos, etc.
In my Realms after the destruction of the Weave and the Spellplague hit the Elven deities banded together to pull Evermeet into the Feywild. Without the Weave they had to actually expend their divine energies (rather than using the Weave as a conduit for their power). This drastically weakened many of them, even going as far as to reduce some of them to Archfey status.
However, once Evermeet was taken to the Feywild (Faerie), many, many Elves were removed from Toril. These Elves were outside of Ao's influence, and thus the worshipers of the Elven deities decreased drastically... thus no longer giving them the power to sustain their divinity in the Torillian Sphere as established by Ao. Thus, they no longer had divine power in the Realms. Some of them maintain divine power in other prime material worlds, some who became Archfey eventually regained their divinity, but in the end virtually every elven deity lost their deity status in the Realms.
My Spellplague was also much, much worse than the one in cannon. ;)
Most Elves in my Realms have migrated to Myth Drannor, which has become a sort of new Evermeet. A last stand, if you will, on Toril. They're also much more xenophobic, and many of them are members of or secretly support groups such as the Eldreth Veluuthra. There is a growing animosity between Dalelanders and the Elves of Myth Drannor (mostly land disputes), as well as Cormyr as somewhat a third unpredictable wheel in the debate. (Cormyr is hungrily eying the Dalelands as well, but sees Myth Drannor as the greater threat in the region.)
Anyway, there are still Elves in cosmopolitan areas outside of Myth Drannor who have kind of just accepted the fate of the Elves of Toril. They're mostly younger Elves, born some years before the Spellplague or after. They can be found in places such as Silverymoon, Waterdeep and other multi-racial and cosmopolitan areas. That is where the heresies and the like flourish.
So among the Elves you basically have two main factions. The largest being the Myth Drannor crowd, trying to preserve Elvish Culture, Elvish Lore, and the Elvish Way of Life in the face of human expansionism. (It is critical to remember that the Elves no longer have Evermeet to run off to hide.) The second faction, which is small compared to the Myth Drannor faction, are Elves who have somewhat given up on the Elven way of life to embrace humanity, to intermingle and even breed with them. The two factions don't see eye to eye at all.
Keep in mind that I'm speaking strictly for my own version of the Realms here. None of that is cannon. What is cannon is what is stated in the FRCG, which of course I think is total crap - which is why I've ignored it. :P
However, let me explain it so that it makes sense.
First of all, you have to understand that Ao is a regulation guy. He's the one who created all these rules and whatnot. I'm not a big fan of Ao, but I kept him around in my Realms simply because he was too important to remove and I couldn't predict the repercussions of his removal.
...anyway...
Ao doesn't have any power outside of Toril. He has no power on the planes. He has no power on the Shadowfell, the Feywild (Faerie), the Hells, the Abyss, the Elemental Chaos, etc.
In my Realms after the destruction of the Weave and the Spellplague hit the Elven deities banded together to pull Evermeet into the Feywild. Without the Weave they had to actually expend their divine energies (rather than using the Weave as a conduit for their power). This drastically weakened many of them, even going as far as to reduce some of them to Archfey status.
However, once Evermeet was taken to the Feywild (Faerie), many, many Elves were removed from Toril. These Elves were outside of Ao's influence, and thus the worshipers of the Elven deities decreased drastically... thus no longer giving them the power to sustain their divinity in the Torillian Sphere as established by Ao. Thus, they no longer had divine power in the Realms. Some of them maintain divine power in other prime material worlds, some who became Archfey eventually regained their divinity, but in the end virtually every elven deity lost their deity status in the Realms.
My Spellplague was also much, much worse than the one in cannon. ;)
Most Elves in my Realms have migrated to Myth Drannor, which has become a sort of new Evermeet. A last stand, if you will, on Toril. They're also much more xenophobic, and many of them are members of or secretly support groups such as the Eldreth Veluuthra. There is a growing animosity between Dalelanders and the Elves of Myth Drannor (mostly land disputes), as well as Cormyr as somewhat a third unpredictable wheel in the debate. (Cormyr is hungrily eying the Dalelands as well, but sees Myth Drannor as the greater threat in the region.)
Anyway, there are still Elves in cosmopolitan areas outside of Myth Drannor who have kind of just accepted the fate of the Elves of Toril. They're mostly younger Elves, born some years before the Spellplague or after. They can be found in places such as Silverymoon, Waterdeep and other multi-racial and cosmopolitan areas. That is where the heresies and the like flourish.
So among the Elves you basically have two main factions. The largest being the Myth Drannor crowd, trying to preserve Elvish Culture, Elvish Lore, and the Elvish Way of Life in the face of human expansionism. (It is critical to remember that the Elves no longer have Evermeet to run off to hide.) The second faction, which is small compared to the Myth Drannor faction, are Elves who have somewhat given up on the Elven way of life to embrace humanity, to intermingle and even breed with them. The two factions don't see eye to eye at all.
I just stole that Meldread.
Quick question Meldread, what is your take on Evereska?
Lord Manshoon you mentioned Realmspace, and that got me thinking, Did the Spellplague effect any other planets in Realmspace? Or what about the Crystal Speres? They've been ignored since 2e and the demise of Spelljammer, so do they still exsist? or did the spellplague wipe them out too? I always hated the Crystal Sphere thing and thought D&D worlds should have normal cosmologies not be in a giant bubble. Oooop im getting off topic again.
I expect that it affected everywhere in Realmspace where the Weave touched. That most likely affected other planets, too. I don't think it could affect other Crystal Spheres, though. The Weave ends at the borders of Realmspace, to my knowledge.
Keep in mind that I'm speaking strictly for my own version of the Realms here. None of that is cannon. What is cannon is what is stated in the FRCG, which of course I think is total crap - which is why I've ignored it. :P
Ah, my mistake. I thought you were describing the canon realms.
Cool ideas, though.I expect that it affected everywhere in Realmspace where the Weave touched. That most likely affected other planets, too. I don't think it could affect other Crystal Spheres, though. The Weave ends at the borders of Realmspace, to my knowledge.
That's right, i was thinkin that the weave just surrounded Toril, but it did expand out throught all of Realmspace. There was spellcasting going on those other planets, too so yeah that makes sense. This puts a bigger reach to the spellplauge than i had originally thought. This has really got me thinkin now. Things like how the Spellplague affected these other worlds, if maybe they all switched parts with long lost twin worlds, if they all have shadowfells and feywilds too. I dont see them doing a 4e Realmspace, so its all pretty open territory.
Gettin way off topic now.
That's right, i was thinkin that the weave just surrounded Toril, but it did expand out throught all of Realmspace. There was spellcasting going on those other planets, too so yeah that makes sense. This puts a bigger reach to the spellplauge than i had originally thought. This has really got me thinkin now. Things like how the Spellplague affected these other worlds, if maybe they all switched parts with long lost twin worlds, if they all have shadowfells and feywilds too. I dont see them doing a 4e Realmspace, so its all pretty open territory.
This touches on one of the biggest questions: What made Toril so unique in the entire universe? Yes, I know, Toril was the embodiment of Chauntea, but if there are other planets, would not at least some of them be the embodiment of other deities? Or other embodiments of Chauntea? Why did everyone and their sister take an interest in Toril? I personally think Toril is the oldest planet in Realmspace, but I have no evidence in front of me.
Gettin way off topic now.
It happens (quite frequently, too).
So, back to the Seldarine: Rillifane is awesome, Labelas is lame. Agreed, everyone?
This touches on one of the biggest questions: What made Toril so unique in the entire universe? Yes, I know, Toril was the embodiment of Chauntea, but if there are other planets, would not at least some of them be the embodiment of other deities? Or other embodiments of Chauntea? Why did everyone and their sister take an interest in Toril? I personally think Toril is the oldest planet in Realmspace, but I have no evidence in front of me.
I think the big thing with Toril is the variety. All the other planets stuck with a basic elemental scheme, like this one was a water world, this ones all rock, etc. (i dont remeber which ones were what id have to dig out the old Realmspace book), whereas Toril is a mix of all these things. It would make sense for the other planets to be embodiments of other powers, or at least have powers or perhaps elemental lords more predominate there. i think im gonna use that.
So, back to the Seldarine: Rillifane is awesome, Labelas is lame. Agreed, everyone?
Agreed! ....or wait Noooooo! Labelas is the coolest! the god of time! it doenst get much cooler than that. I wouldnt anger him, he has all those time elementals under his command!
Quick question Meldread, what is your take on Evereska?
My version of Evereska is somewhat in a state of flux. However, I can say with certainty that Evereska is completely abandoned as a result of the Spellplague. I go back and forth on what exactly happened to it... it's rather unimportant aside from what I just wrote above... but here is the latest incarnation.
Imagine the Chernobyl disaster but instead of nuclear meltdown, replace that with the appearance of the Spellplague. When the Spellplague appeared it seemed to center around the mythal, which no longer functions. At first it didn't seem that serious. Although bad things were going on, wizards were driven insane, the mythal stopped functioning, and magical items as a whole no longer seemed to work at all... no one seemed to be dying. At first.
If you'd visit Evereska today you'd find a place that appears as if all of its people were going about their daily lives when suddenly they just... vanished. As if the air itself had just taken them away. Throughout the ruins you'd find signs all around of people who seemed to have been going about their daily lives, and it is as if they stepped out of the room for a moment and never returned.
The only life you would find (and it would be RARE to find any at all) would be some wild animals that happened to wander into the ruins. Most animals tend to avoid the ruins, but it happens from time to time.
Walking through the ruins by day, you'd easily come to the conclusion that you could move into them and reclaim them. This is very deceptive. The buildings are still mostly in good condition and you may even be tempted to set-up camp in one of them.
However, as night falls you will begin to get the feeling that you're being watched. You're not sure by what or who... but you're certain it's there. That little feeling that you get sometimes when someone is staring at you. Except, of course, no one is there.
The Elves who once lived in Evereska have named it Ityak'Ortheel ('the Elf-Eater'). This should not be mistaken for the demon that lives in the Abyss of the same name. It is a completely different being entirely and far more dangerous.
To the best anyone has been able to discern in Evereska when the Spellplague first appeared, things appeared mostly normal (well normal for the events of the time). Until people started going missing during the night. It began with wizards who had been driven insane by the Spellplague. It was not a great cause for concern for those who were not wizards.
However, over the course of the next several days, more and more people began to go missing in the night. They just up and vanished. This led to panic, which eventually, by the end of the week (after several hundred had gone missing) led to the complete evacuation of the city. Most of those who lived in Evereska eventually made their way to Myth Drannor.
Now... what is Ityak'Ortheel ('the Elf-Eater')? It is likely some individual transformed by the Spellplague. Some speculate that it is a former High Mage. Others speculate that it is a number of individuals... some have gone back in an attempt to study it, most have been consumed by it, but here is what is known.
It is a malicious entity that seems to lurk throughout the entire ruins of Evereska. It is uncertain to what degree it has any sentience, but it is not very intelligent. It seems to have the ability to detect and select prey, but it seems that it can sometimes be fooled or duped.
Ityak'Ortheel is completely incorporeal. It lacks any true form, and manifests in a blue mist like fog, similar to the Spellplague itself. It cannot leave Evereska for some unknown reason - it appears trapped within its walls. However, it will attack any entity that enters, but it seems to have a preferred choice of Elves. (Hence it's name.)
The slightest touch of Ityak'Ortheel is instantly fatal, the body of the individual is wholly consumed by the fog. It is uncertain if those consumed become part of it or not.
In any event it seems nearly impossible to destroy, and will bring its full force to bear on any who make the attempt. However, it's one weakness seems to be light - natural or otherwise. It will instantly flee and recoil from any light source, and so long as the light remains bright Ityak'Ortheel will not come near. This is why Evereska is safe during the day. It is also why the Elves have not made the attempt to reclaim it.
Interesting take there Meldread. Sounds absolutley terrifying! Sounds like you've spent some time workin this out. Like they say its your Realms.
but lets get back to the topic at hand. The Seldarine. Specifically whats the deal with Rillifane? He cant be dead, because hes one with the forests, if he was dead there would be no forests, so what is he? An archfey? primal spirit? aspect of another god? perhaps a primordial? an elder nature elemental? whats everyone elses take on this?
And lets get back to Labelas and how awsome he is!!!! He is the sole Lord of Time, with Mystra/Mystryl/Midnight being offed. Seems that should bump his status up to at least a lesser god. Im not sure if being an Exarch is really a status of divine power or just an indication that youve sworn allegiance to another god? I mean Labelas was a 32nd level mage,31st level cleric, and a 25th level bard. So does he lose power for being an exarch or is that merely an indication that hes sworn to Corellon? I mean thats one bad ass exarch right there.
Labelas has his moments... Rillifane, I'm not so fond of. But then I'd ditch Silvanus entirely and just make him a masculine aspect of Chauntea, the same going for Rillifane. But nature deities are some of the few that I think should be singular entities, while more conceptual deities should be individual to a species.
@ Meldread, not to ignore that post, but my arm and back are killing me, and I just don't have the patience or coherency to make sense of my own thoughts for that long just now.
Specifically whats the deal with Rillifane? He cant be dead, because hes one with the forests, if he was dead there would be no forests, so what is he?
Were he to die, there would still be forests. There are other forest deities (namely Silvanus and Mielikki). Even if they died, there would still be forests.
An archfey? primal spirit? aspect of another god? perhaps a primordial? an elder nature elemental? whats everyone elses take on this?
I sincerely doubt he's a primordial, or even an elemental. I still get the feeling he's an aspect of Silvanus, but I'd prefer to find out he's made a transition to Archfey or Primal Spirit. In any event, it doesn't much matter to me, since he's still his old self in my game. I only want to know out of curiosity.
Seems that should bump his status up to at least a lesser god.
They weren't too keen on giving the Greater Gods more than one Lesser God by their side. It seems to have come down to Labelas and Angy, and Labelas couldn't compete (of course, he can't compete with any of the other Seldarine, since he's the lamest). Same reason Clangeddin went from Intermediate Power to Exarch; he couldn't match Berronar.
Im not sure if being an Exarch is really a status of divine power or just an indication that youve sworn allegiance to another god? I mean Labelas was a 32nd level mage,31st level cleric, and a 25th level bard. So does he lose power for being an exarch or is that merely an indication that hes sworn to Corellon? I mean thats one bad ass exarch right there.
The exact status of Exarch varies, if I've gauged it correctly. Those Exarchs who have priests retain divine power, and those who don't are more holy figures/saints. For instance, Shevarash has retained his followers, and Clangeddin hasn't (at least, the FRCG doesn't mention his priests), so I expect Shevarash is still regarded as a proper god and Clangeddin would be seen more as a paragon of dwarven strength, championed by Moradin. At least, that's what it appears to be. The whole power loss also varies. Some Exarchs were former Intermediate Powers (again, Clangeddin) and some were former Demipowers (Hoar, for instance). I believe Exarch is supposed to be somewhere between Lesser Power and Demipower in terms of might, for the most part. Clangeddin (and other upper level deities) really got sandbagged by this demotion, but Hoar, I figure, ended up a little bit better off (or maybe he didn't really make any gains, what with coming fully under Bane's fist). Labelas, I figure, is worse off than before, but still has the clout of a divine being.
Quick question Meldread, what is your take on Evereska?
My version of Evereska is somewhat in a state of flux. However, I can say with certainty that Evereska is completely abandoned as a result of the Spellplague. I go back and forth on what exactly happened to it... it's rather unimportant aside from what I just wrote above... but here is the latest incarnation.
Imagine the Chernobyl disaster but instead of nuclear meltdown, replace that with the appearance of the Spellplague. When the Spellplague appeared it seemed to center around the mythal, which no longer functions. At first it didn't seem that serious. Although bad things were going on, wizards were driven insane, the mythal stopped functioning, and magical items as a whole no longer seemed to work at all... no one seemed to be dying. At first.
If you'd visit Evereska today you'd find a place that appears as if all of its people were going about their daily lives when suddenly they just... vanished. As if the air itself had just taken them away. Throughout the ruins you'd find signs all around of people who seemed to have been going about their daily lives, and it is as if they stepped out of the room for a moment and never returned.
The only life you would find (and it would be RARE to find any at all) would be some wild animals that happened to wander into the ruins. Most animals tend to avoid the ruins, but it happens from time to time.
Walking through the ruins by day, you'd easily come to the conclusion that you could move into them and reclaim them. This is very deceptive. The buildings are still mostly in good condition and you may even be tempted to set-up camp in one of them.
However, as night falls you will begin to get the feeling that you're being watched. You're not sure by what or who... but you're certain it's there. That little feeling that you get sometimes when someone is staring at you. Except, of course, no one is there.
The Elves who once lived in Evereska have named it Ityak'Ortheel ('the Elf-Eater'). This should not be mistaken for the demon that lives in the Abyss of the same name. It is a completely different being entirely and far more dangerous.
To the best anyone has been able to discern in Evereska when the Spellplague first appeared, things appeared mostly normal (well normal for the events of the time). Until people started going missing during the night. It began with wizards who had been driven insane by the Spellplague. It was not a great cause for concern for those who were not wizards.
However, over the course of the next several days, more and more people began to go missing in the night. They just up and vanished. This led to panic, which eventually, by the end of the week (after several hundred had gone missing) led to the complete evacuation of the city. Most of those who lived in Evereska eventually made their way to Myth Drannor.
Now... what is Ityak'Ortheel ('the Elf-Eater')? It is likely some individual transformed by the Spellplague. Some speculate that it is a former High Mage. Others speculate that it is a number of individuals... some have gone back in an attempt to study it, most have been consumed by it, but here is what is known.
It is a malicious entity that seems to lurk throughout the entire ruins of Evereska. It is uncertain to what degree it has any sentience, but it is not very intelligent. It seems to have the ability to detect and select prey, but it seems that it can sometimes be fooled or duped.
Ityak'Ortheel is completely incorporeal. It lacks any true form, and manifests in a blue mist like fog, similar to the Spellplague itself. It cannot leave Evereska for some unknown reason - it appears trapped within its walls. However, it will attack any entity that enters, but it seems to have a preferred choice of Elves. (Hence it's name.)
The slightest touch of Ityak'Ortheel is instantly fatal, the body of the individual is wholly consumed by the fog. It is uncertain if those consumed become part of it or not.
In any event it seems nearly impossible to destroy, and will bring its full force to bear on any who make the attempt. However, it's one weakness seems to be light - natural or otherwise. It will instantly flee and recoil from any light source, and so long as the light remains bright Ityak'Ortheel will not come near. This is why Evereska is safe during the day. It is also why the Elves have not made the attempt to reclaim it.
Nice...all those dead elves. Made my day.
Wasn't Evereska's Mythal corrupted by the Shadow Weave at the end of Return of the Archwizards?
I was thinking maybe, the Mythal is now containing a Shadowfell creature that got loose during the first Spellplague flare up. To kill it, one must go to the Shadowfell and find it.
Yep, I hate these smilies...
truly viscios... I like it, and I dont like it.
nasty shadar kai enslaving elves that way........
Even if they died, there would still be forests.
Yes I suppose you are right. My resoning is that Rillifane is the embodiment of the woods, so as long as there were forests you would have Rillifane. Kinda like Mystra and the weave, as long as you have the weave you have Mystra, granted they went through a few Mystras, but still there was a mystra.
The way i see it Rillifane is the Embodimnet of the woods, Chauntea is the Embodiment of Toril (perhaps even all of Realmspace), and Silvanus is like the grounds keeper.
And by the way what have you got against Labelas? Personaly i think hes my favorite member of the Seldarine. I think he the most interesting. He seems the most unique to me. The other members of the Seldarine seem to me to be Dieties of typical elven stuff. Well Rillifane is pretty unique too, being a tree and all. I dont think ive heard of any other nature god that takes the form of an actual tree. Ussually they're humanoid or take on an animal shape.
Yep, I hate these smilies...
Just download you some smilies. Meldread posted a link thats got some pretty cool smilies on it. Just save em and then upload onto here as pics and your good to go.
I have given primal spirit worship of the early green elves the place of their willingness and respect for the new world and its creatures they found on it. The following is written from the green elven perspective.
The earlier green elves were a curious and explorative lot, but being the planar interlopers all elves are, they relied mostly on their fey traditions at first. Rillifane and the fey court held most if not all of their religious beliefs in sway, as they where largely still very close to the happenings of the fey.
Their carefree and capriciousness was strained by the harshness of Fearuns wilds and they soon had to adapt to survive. Within the ancient primal forests of Fearun they encountered all sorts of animals, plants and sites and each of their spirits taught them the specific ways of survival in the verdant woods. Most of these animals usually had a single mother or father spirit from which the green elves quickly could glean the skills they needed. One of these animals, a certain kind of ape called itself human. It had meriad of spirit ancestors and some of those apes had shaman that had learned to revere the lands spirits just as the elves had done.
Some of those apes even claimed the land was shaped by greater spirits above called gods. They could prove their right with terrible powers and the green elves learned to avoid those who revelled in it by retreating to the deep forests and unclaimed southern lands.
Later on with the arrival of the sun elves (and moon elf) Corellons Crusades entered the lands of the green elves and promised the exact powers that the elves had feared and even more control of the capricious thing called magic. Divinations revealed Rillifane had grudgingly chosen to support the Fey Fathers politics (probably in the understanding the wisdom of Corellon to unite the people for the benefit of all the elves). Some the green elves shunned even these divinations and proclaimed Rillifane had not wholly joined Corellons ideas. Enter the beginnings of the first steps towards the Crown Wars....
Labelas has his moments... Rillifane, I'm not so fond of.
And you dont like Rillifane? I know Lord Manshoon doesnt like Labelas, 18Delta seems to hate elves in general, not sure what every one elses stances are. I can see that as an intersting side topic: Whos youre favorite/least favorite member of the Seldarine, and why?
My least favorite elven deity is Deep Sashelas. I mean nothin personal against the guy, He just seems to be kinda useless to me. All the other Elven Deities were gods/godesses of something specific, whereas Deep Sashelas was just god of the sea elves. I guess he could be considered the Elven god of the sea, but he seemed more tied to sea elves than as a general sea god. I mean Sehanine was the elven goodes of the moon, divinations, and protection against madness, she wasnt just the goddess of moon elves. I dont know i may be slightly biased, i never really liked Sea elves, Especialy as a PC race. Interesting concept, i guess they were goin with like an elemental theme, you got the sea elves for water, wood elves for earth, Avariel for air, so wheres the fire elves? Why arent there any fire elves?
Just the way i see it.
Yes I suppose you are right. My resoning is that Rillifane is the embodiment of the woods, so as long as there were forests you would have Rillifane. Kinda like Mystra and the weave, as long as you have the weave you have Mystra, granted they went through a few Mystras, but still there was a mystra.
Ah. I see. Well, I don't believe Rillifane's embodiment of the woods is is in the same vein as Mystra = Weave. It's more like Shar's bond with darkness. There will always be darkness in the universe, but Shar can be slain. She herself acknowledges her own "divine mortality", 'cause offing herself is the last step in her master plan. So, if Shar, who is the embodiment of darkness, can truly and totally die (not necessarily at her own hand) despite the presence of darkness in the universe and/or on Toril, I imagine Rillifane wouldn't get a new incarnation just because forests survive were he to snuff it. At least, that's my take on it. I could be wrong.
And by the way what have you got against Labelas? Personaly i think hes my favorite member of the Seldarine. I think he the most interesting.
Comparison. When I stack him against each of the other Seldarine members, he loses in my own books. The only one he beats is Angy, but I barely recognize her since she's usually been Hanali, Sehanine, and Aerdrie. So, because he's at the bottom of my barrel, he becomes the butt of my jokes. Occassionally, I might praise him, but praise is typically reserved for my top three (Shevarash, Rillifane, and Erevan), with an occassional compliment aimed at one of the other Seldarine members. Labelas, being lowest on the list, receives the least honor from me. Because this is a democracy and stuff.
Rillifane cannot be the embodiment of the forests of Toril. He is an interloper deity, and forests existed on Toril before he even arrived.
That being said, he no doubt has power over certain forests sacred or important to the Elves. If he were to die then those forests would likely suffer in some way, though I doubt they'd be completely destroyed. Some vestiges of his power would linger there.
Here is what I would imagine would happen in some forests that were important / sacred to the elves where Rillifane had power.
It would be very similar as to what is happening in some of the forests in the western part of the United States as a result of Global Warming. There is this bug (a beetle I think) that is very sensitive to cold. Once the temperature drops below a certain amount it dies. However, since Global Warming is causing the average temperature to rise, this beetle has been able to spread into areas that it previously was unable to... and this beetle bores into certain types of trees which ultimately kills them.
This is causing an obvious problem. All those dead trees increase the risk of forest fire and the like... in addition to causing ecological problems for the wildlife in the area that depended on those trees.
I imagine a similar thing would happen in certain Elven forests. Predators that once wouldn't have entered would appear. Trees would be attacked, dying, causing problems for local wildlife and increasing the risk of forest fires. It wouldn't happen instantly, but over time – as the bugs / beetles spread.
That's how I would handle it, at least.
Ohhh.. Yes. My Google-foo is strong. I found two helpful links to what I talked about above. Here and here.
Rillifane cannot be the embodiment of the forests of Toril. He is an interloper deity, and forests existed on Toril before he even arrived.
Good point. Youre absolutly right, i didnt even think of that. I guess technicaly Rillifane would be more tied with the Feywild and/or Arvandor, but still i could see him getting more of a Toril connection once the Elves settled in.
That being said, he no doubt has power over certain forests sacred or important to the Elves. If he were to die then those forests would likely suffer in some way, though I doubt they'd be completely destroyed
Agreed, though I could see a few being totally destroyed over time, if there weren't elves, fey, or other allies of Rillifane present.
I imagine a similar thing would happen in certain Elven forests. Predators that once wouldn't have entered would appear. Trees would be attacked, dying, causing problems for local wildlife and increasing the risk of forest fires. It wouldn't happen instantly, but over time – as the bugs / beetles spread.
I think most larger predators would be capably handled by the elves (and there are bound to be elves in forests sacred to Rillifane). Fey, too, perhaps. In my mind, it would be the little buggers like beetles that would be the biggest threat, the ones small enough to evade even keen elven eyes.
Of course, the forests are already doomed, having been penetrated by the foulest predators of all.
Still got it.
I have given primal spirit worship of the early green elves the place of their willingness and respect for the new world and its creatures they found on it. The following is written from the green elven perspective.
Yes! Primal Elves! i can totally see that.
Whos youre favorite/least favorite member of the Seldarine, and why?
Favorite... probably Deep Sashelas actually, because he's certainly the least offensive to me, as are the sea elves in general. They've been just as screwed by their surface cousins as most others, except for humans, who always get the icky end of the pooh stick when it comes to elves.
Least favorite... Shevarash, because I don't think he's much more than a terrorist... a reflection of his prey as it were, a perversity on an already perverse species, without both negatives making a positive, just something worse.
Favorite... probably Deep Sashelas actually, because he's certainly the least offensive to me, as are the sea elves in general. They've been just as screwed by their surface cousins as most others, except for humans, who always get the icky end of the pooh stick when it comes to elves.
Wow really? Deep Sashelas? I didnt expect any one to pick him as a favorite. I like that we all have individual tastes, and everyones not going Corellons my favorite. Really keeps this thread varied, i like it! even though i might not agree with you. The humans have given the elves plenty of poo-sticks too!
Least favorite... Shevarash, because I don't think he's much more than a terrorist... a reflection of his prey as it were, a perversity on an already perverse species, without both negatives making a positive, just something worse.
I can really see your reasoning there. He really goes against the grain, compared to the other elven gods. Most of em are a carefree lot, whereas Shevaresh is sullen and brooding. Doesnt seem to fit in with the other elven gods, hes got some definite Sharness going on there. Still i kinda like him. Hoar is probably my favorite over all Realms deity, and i pretty much see Shevaresh as the elven equivalent. I'm thinkin he was pretty much brought in to take Vhaeraun's place. Thats my story and im stickin to it.
Wow really? Deep Sashelas? I didnt expect any one to pick him as a favorite. I like that we all have individual tastes, and everyones not going Corellons my favorite. Really keeps this thread varied, i like it! even though i might not agree with you. The humans have given the elves plenty of poo-sticks too!
Although I don't think Deep Sashelas is my favourite, I can certainly understand why Stigger picked him. Of them all, if you were looking for a Deity that mostly kept their hands off Toril then he would be the one. I personally prefer Sehanine Moonbow, but then I perfer the Moon Elves of all of them.
I can really see your reasoning there. He really goes against the grain, compared to the other elven gods. Most of em are a carefree lot, whereas Shevaresh is sullen and brooding. Doesnt seem to fit in with the other elven gods, hes got some definite Sharness going on there.
Hmmm, I am with Stigger on this one. Shevaresh gets on my nerves... frequently. Mostly for the reasons you have ably suggested above.
And wow, there is some serious Elf-hate going on in these parts, I thought 18Delta was the worst but Meldread seems to have it in for them too!
Least favorite... Shevarash, because I don't think he's much more than a terrorist... a reflection of his prey as it were, a perversity on an already perverse species, without both negatives making a positive, just something worse.
*imagines elven terrorists making demands to human authorities* Interesting....
I can really see your reasoning there. He really goes against the grain, compared to the other elven gods. Most of em are a carefree lot, whereas Shevaresh is sullen and brooding. Doesnt seem to fit in with the other elven gods, hes got some definite Sharness going on there.
Well, they are allies (or at least on decent terms). And Shev fits in pretty well with Fenmarel (sullen and brooding). Those two pretty much give the Seldarine a little more substance than sunshine and glitter stickers.
Still i kinda like him.
Exquisite.
Ha! My favorite elven deity is Shevarash precisely for many of the reasons Stigger hates him. :P
My least favorite... hm... that's hard. I'd have to say Angharradh. It's nothing personal, it's just that I believe when gods merge they should stay merged.
Although I'm not really fond of any of them outside of Shevarash, if I had to pick a second favorite it would be Rillifane. He's one of the more interesting druid deities.
Iluvrien-
I don't hate Elves, per-say. I like them to some degree, it's just that I want to fight against the cosmopolitan nature of the Realms. I don't want all my races living happily together and what not - I want racial tension.
Since I axed Netheril and then had Cormyr take Sembia (instead of expanding southward they just took Sembia), I needed an antagonist in the region. Cormyr is hungrily eying the Dales, but I was stuck with the return of the Elves to Myth Drannor before the Spellplague hit.
So... what to do, right? Well when I thought about it, the solution was obvious. With Evermeet gone, and the Elves having already started the process of resettling Myth Drannor... well land disputes between the Dales and Myth Drannor was sure to happen. The Elves had serious disputes with Sembia in the past, which caused Sembian's to have some racial animosity toward the Elves.
Insert Sembian refugee's fleeing Netheril into the Dales and Cormyr, then a second wave of refugees from Sembia into the Dales fleeing Cormyrian occupation... then factor in Sembian and Cormyrian's intermingling... and you have that nice little racist animosity spreading like the swine flu throughout the region.
Meanwhile, among the Elves, factor in their great losses, long lives and sense of history (so they KNOW exactly how much they lost), sprinkle in the Eldreth Veluuthra playing off the bitterness and loss experienced by the Elves... add in a little resentment among the Elves. Toss in a few heated conflicts that get both sides angry at each other and pointing fingers...
...and you have just made plot gold for a potential conflict brewing around Myth Drannor.
Stylistically I very loosely framed it in similar terms to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. On the one hand, you have the Elves who see Myth Drannor (and some even the entire region) as Elven ancestral lands. They have (in their minds) a right to those lands. On the other hand, you have the Dalelanders and Cormyrian's who've since established themselves in the region. Add to this the fact that Elves are long lived, and from their perspective the lands belonged to their parents, grand parents, or great grand parents. So it is not as if they have some distant claim – in their minds it's as if they stepped out to go on a family vacation and returned a week later to find someone else living in their house.
Meanwhile, the Elves have pretty much lost everything else. Many of their gods have fallen silent, virtually every living Elf has had friends and family simply vanish into the unknown or die as a result of the Spellplague – caused by the meddling of human gods. All they have left to hold onto is Myth Drannor, and if they lose that then they've lost everything – this gives them a sense of a final stand. They aren't going anywhere.
As time passes more and more Elven refugees from across Faerûn show up in Myth Drannor. They obviously cannot live with just the city alone. They need food so they begin farming and setting up smaller settlements outside of the city of Myth Drannor... but wait! That land belongs to someone else...
Meanwhile, you have Dalelanders and their famous independent streak kicking in... a splinter group of the Harpers who are little more than terrorists attacking Cormyr and Myth Drannor both... and then you have the Eldreth Veluuthra returning those attacks with an eye for an eye mentality. The Dalelands becoming a sort of failed Republic, with a weak and ineffective central government... with the inability to come together except when directly under attack. Add to that secret support for one group or another, be it Cormyrian loyalists, Harper terrorists, or Myth Drannor sympathizers, one of the various independence movements, supporting a movement that supports a stronger central government for the Dalelands, or any of the other myriad of groups... and well... you've again got plot gold. ;)
Ha! My favorite elven deity is Shevarash precisely for many of the reasons Stigger hates him. :P
My least favorite... hm... that's hard. I'd have to say Angharradh. It's nothing personal, it's just that I believe when gods merge they should stay merged.
Although I'm not really fond of any of them outside of Shevarash, if I had to pick a second favorite it would be Rillifane. He's one of the more interesting druid deities.
Excellent. More support for the two most awesome deities in the Seldarine.
If you like tired old 'zong elves are dicks' plots, sure. *eyeroll*
Gods I'm sick of that kind of tripe. And your stuff with the Seldarine doesn't even make sense, the Feywild is still part of the cosmology, it's not going to kill them if Evermeet disappears to it or they move it there(And if they can move it there, why would they do it if it would screw them over? That makes no sense at all), they've got plenty of worshippers on the mainland, they're all multispheric deities anyway.
*seriously tired of elf hate and the ever-present 'kewl' idea of 'lets get rid of the Seldarine and turn the elves into two-dimensional villains!' thing.* Call me when someone has the idea of having something happen to the single-sphere deities and their people, and having the Elves realise that they and their gods are the only ones who can help, and doing so reluctantly at first, but eventually moving towards greater integration.
Ye gods flying and being around Lolthmy mother makes me cranky.
I like Corellon, Erevan and Labelas best. In that order.
*goes off grumbling and being cranky to get some sleep*
How are the Elves being dicks? They do have a legitimate claim to the lands, they're just inconvenienced by the fact that humans also have a legitimate claim to them. ;)
That's why I like the conflict. It isn't two dimensional with one side being clearly evil and wrong, and the other side clearly being good and right. There are plenty of shades of grey, and both sides are equally committing questionable acts (in some cases down right vile acts) to the other.
Re: the Feywild as I said my Cosmology is different than the one used in cannon. Ao only has influence over the Realm's Crystal Sphere. The Feywild is outside of the Realm's Crystal Sphere.
Certain Elven deities lost their divinity (some of which regained it later) because they had to actually expend their divine power to move Evermeet. They moved Evermeet because it was in danger of being destroyed by the Spellplague, and presumably they're supposed to be good aligned deities who actually care for their worshipers. :P
Plus, it was kinda a spur of the moment decision. Their P-Mail (Prayer Mail) Inbox was overflowing with, "OMFG SAVE ME!!!1111~!!!` THE WORLD IS DOOMED!!!11221!~1!~1!" messages. :P
And wow, there is some serious Elf-hate going on in these parts, I thought 18Delta was the worst but Meldread seems to have it in for them too!
Thats just them Cyricists spreading chaos and discord.
I dont think Meldread has got it in for elves, hes just got his own thing goin on. (although he does seem to be killing an awful lot of them off).
If Markus was around(or is he?:shifty
then you would see Elf hate.
It's really not hate, its knowing the truth about the evil buggers.
Now stigger on the other hand...
I like Corellon, Erevan and Labelas best. In that order.
Now let's see Erevan move up that list.
*goes off grumbling and being cranky to get some sleep*
Sleep? What happened to Reverie? That's not a good sign if you're sleeping. Are you ill?
As a matter of fact, yes, I am. :<
And wow, there is some serious Elf-hate going on in these parts, I thought 18Delta was the worst but Meldread seems to have it in for them too!
Thats just them Cyricists spreading chaos and discord.
I dont think Meldread has got it in for elves, hes just got his own thing goin on. (although he does seem to be killing an awful lot of them off).
I didn't kill a lot of them off, I just... uhh... relocated them. >_> (Why is it that as I typed that I got mental images of Elves in concentration camps?
That's not what I meant at all!)But seriously, the Elves got off easy compared to some other groups. Netheril is gone, the Zhents are gone (sorta), the Red Wizard's are gone, the Harpers are fractured and broken, Calimshan is COMPLETELY gone (doing major revamps / retcons in Zakhara)... just to name a few. ;)
And of course, the Elven deities got off easy compared to some of the human deities.
Some people who hate 4E call it the 'Shattered Realms' as a derogatory attack. I call my Realms the 'Shattered Realms' because that's exactly what it has become... 4E FR looks like happy, happy fun land compared to what I did to my Realms. >_>
I don't have it in for the elves, and I'm definitely not hating on them for no reason. They're just scum who tend towards hypocrisy and villainry when it comes down to it. I mean really, compared to the destruction of the Crown Wars, Evermeet being raised, and the Vilhon Reach being created(to name just a few instances) , how much damage have humans really done to the world? Not much I'd say. Certainly humans haven't done really great things for the world, but they've got a long way to go to catch up with the elves on that scorecard.
My own take is that the gnomes and hin are the only ones worth calling goodly... maybe dwarves, but they're too insular to qualify really.
I agree with Stigger. You have two faces to the Elves. On the one hand they have their public face, where they seem to be portrayed as superior to humans, innately good beings, and wherever they walk gumdrops rain from the sky and the trees all turn to cotton candy... (Oh and you can eat it all without getting fat, too!)
Then on the other hand, you have the realities as outlined in the Fall of Myth Drannor... in which the source book proceeds to in no uncertain terms blame the Elves for it's fall (due to their pride and evil).
1. Elven nobles conspired to take the hand of Aravae the Coronal's heir after Coronal Eltargrim died. Later, it was clear that an unknown Elf (most certainly a wizard) strangled her and her three bodyguards BEFORE she could become the Coronal and produce an heir.
2. That action led to arrogance at the Claiming Ceremony where many of the heirs of the ranking elven noble houses were killed. (They were deemed impure by the Ruler's Blade.)
3. As the Claiming Ceremony continued the Elven Nobility turned upon Elven Commoners - and especially non-Elves who attempted to get to the Ruler's Blade. Which ultimately led to the Srinshee taking it and running off...
4. Which led to the creation of the Council, mostly made up of Elves (and to their objections some non-Elves). The Council then proceeded to focus on their own political ambitions and desires, ignoring the needs of Myth Drannor.
5. This caused the slow drip-drip-drip of talent leaving Myth Drannor for sister settlements.
6. When the Army of Darkness showed up, the non-Elven races fought harder to keep Myth Drannor than the Elves themselves.
Here are some fun quotes from the Fall of Myth Drannor:
"While they truly loved their City of Song, many of the elves abandoned it as "a failed experiment" or "a once-holy place of the People, brought low by the taint of the N'Tel'Quess."
"As for the collective N'Tel'Quess races of Myth Drannor, the elf histories paint a poor picture of them as the true insidious and divisive elements that helped bring on the Fall. Most gold elf histories written within a century of the Fall are more filled by conspiracy theories, seeing every dwarf and human allied with the Army of Darkness in secret. In truth, those immigrant non-elves fought longer and harder for Cormanthyr and Myth Drannor than three times their number of the People."
And those two quotes are just a taste of what is in there. :P
See! See right there some Elf hate goin on!!!!
Ok so maybe the Seldarine F****ed some sh** up back during the Crown Wars. There were atrocities done on both sides, and all the other races got cought in the middle, but still that was a long time ago, and im sure most people have forgotten about it by now. The Elves have done some good for Toril too, i mean if it wasnt for them elves, we'd probably be over run with Orcs and still rulled by Dragons.
And sure maybe the elves didn't take an active part in defending old Myth Drannor, but i couldnt see them just running off. My belief is that they were all busy performing some sort of ritual to bind the demons and what not in the Mythal, they already knew by that time that Myth Drannor would fall, so they did what they could to stop the evil from spreading. That makes sense too me. There was still plenty of demons left, they could of marched on and taken all of the Dalelands, perhaps even the world, but they stayed in Myth Drannor, why would they do that? I think they were stuck there. I have nothing official to back me up of course, just the way i played it in my home game.
Actually, the Fall of Myth Drannor pretty much places -all- of the blame on the Elves. It is absolutely damning in every way. More quotes:
"The humans' love for the City rivaled that of the elves, and their anger and hatred in seeing it fall even managed to impress such masters of hate as their nycaloth enemies."
"Humans, to believe some elves, were and still are the root of most things evil on Faerûn. Yet, of all the races that stood their ground to defend Myth Drannor to its dying day, none fought more desperately or paid with more blood than the humans. In all, nearly 60% as many humans died in the Weeping War as elves, though this fact is glossed over by the military histories as well. The innate prejudices of some commanders forced the N'Tel'Quess troops into the most savage battles under the worst conditions, and no amount of loss deterred the commanders until the People [the Elves] began taking more casualties, leading to withdrawal."
It is also pretty clear that Myth Drannor likely would have survived were it not for its internal strife... which, of course, it blames squarely on the Elves.
You can download the Fall of Myth Drannor from the WotC site here.
It looks to have been written by Steven Schend, Eric Boyd, Elaine Cunningham, and Ed Greenwood. ;)
Yes there was some definite racial tension in Old Myth Drannor, it was not all peace, love, and harmony, like the bards sing about, but i wouldnt put all that on the elves. I'd say all races view their own race as being somewhat superior to any other. Yes i've read the fall of Myth Drannor, The Myth Drannor Boxed set, and The Empire of the Elves. Theres nothing in there that goes against my high elven ritual idea. in fact thats how i came up with the idea, cause it left me wondering what were all the elves doing during the attack on Myth Drannor? I couldnt see them just running away. The elves are a proud people and i couldnt see them just turning tail. But thats just my opinion, just the way i had it in my own campaign. So yeah other races would see it as the elves didnt do anything because they werent in there actually fighting. And elves arent the type to go around boasting "no man we saved all your **** cause we casted this ritual to contain the Army of Darkness". But like i said just my take on it.
The truth about Sun Elves always comes out.
Its a stain they the Sun Elves cannot hide forever.
Plus I like annoying the fanboys to no end.
that secret, that their Arrogant Slimeballs?? well most of em, thats been common knowledge for years.....
anyway, have anymore homebrew FR,I'd like to read it, just in a different thread
Just a quick reply as I have been busy with wedding stuff, but I will get a chance to make a longer reply to Meldread's post this weekend...
The truth about Sun Elves always comes out.
In a word... I AGREE. If you look at the catastrophies that have fallen upon the already embattled Realms from the hand of the Elves, I would wager that more often than not they have been due to the pride and arrogance of the Sun Elves. Not, and I really can't make this point strongly enough, not the Moon Elves. From the Vyshaan in the Crown Wars to the "Nobles" of Myth Drannor if you want inter-racial and intra-racial hatred and backbiting then you really don't need to look much further than the Golden Kindred. Cull their numbers? Remove a city or two? Knock them down an esteemed peg or three? GREAT. Just leave the Teu-Tel'Quessir alone.
It is for that reason that I was surprised that Meldread has axed Evereska, the largest remaining Moon Elf city but left Myth Drannor.
They think they're better than you, cause they are!
Meldread left Myth Drannor, because he needed a city of villains to replace Zhentil Keep.
Damned elf lovers are hatin' on humans... and gnomes... and hin... and dwarves... oh, wait, they're just being elveseses.
I can kinda sympathize with Nai Calus, after seeing the elfrage continue.
On the other hand, I did expect it...
You know what we need? A tournament, to see who's the most powerful member (or semi-member/allies in a few cases) of the Seldarine. Time to see these elves jump through some hoops! I figure each round willl just be a vote for who you want to see advance, which will close after... let's say, ten hours from the start? So, at the time I edit this post, it will be 3:30 ET (my time)/12:30 PT/Wizards time.
Corellon vs Ye'Cind
Labelas vs Hanali
Sehanine vs Erevan
Shevarash vs Aerdrie
Rillifane vs Deep Sashelas
Gadhelyn vs Angharradh
Khalreshaar vs Fenmarel
Avachel vs Solonor
ROUND ONE: CORELLON VS YE'CIND
It's Big Papa Pointy Ears vs Some Dunce from Greyhawk (who is nevertheless a Seldarine member). Cast your votes now!
shakes head and face palm.
Eravan versus Sehanine, that one would just wind up in her pad or his....
you also forgot
Eilistraee versus Iron heart( whose name I can never remember) the goddess out of races of the wild, but a member of the Seldarine herself
Goddess versus Goddess
I dont think the Seldarine would be fighting amonst themselves, but for the sake of argument lets say they do
Corellon gets my vote in round one.
EPIC FAIL!
What are you talking about? I rolled a NAT 20!!!!
you also forgot
Eilistraee versus Iron heart( whose name I can never remember) the goddess out of races of the wild, but a member of the Seldarine herself
Can't be done. That would throw off the set-up. Also, I picked these matches at random. If I did it God vs God, or Goddess vs Goddess, that would be biased. I left it all up to chance.
I dont think the Seldarine would be fighting amonst themselves, but for the sake of argument lets say they do
Corellon gets my vote in round one.
It's not a battle, it's a popularity contest. There's not even an argument to it.
Corellon - I
Ye'Cind -
Oh a popularity contest, I thought they was gonna be dukin it out, which sounds more dramatic, but ok popularity contest, i understand now. Yeah im still gonna go with Corellon.
Oh a popularity contest, I thought they was gonna be dukin it out, which sounds more dramatic, but ok popularity contest, i understand now. Yeah im still gonna go with Corellon.
I figured making it a battle tournament would be too tricky, since then we'd inevitably have to put up with the "You need to take mechanics into consideration" group. This way, there's no argument about how deity X would potentially be statted up as Class Y Level ??, with abilities A, B, C...
Less of a headache, methinks.
EPIC FAIL!
Ah, my apologies. I missed this. Okay, so that's two for Corellon, none for Ye'Cind. The Protector has begun to take an early lead.
Corellon, of course. Ye'Cind is cool, but he can't hold a candle to Corellon
Corellon, of course. Ye'Cind is cool, but he can't hold a candle to Corellon
No surprises here.
Corellon - I I I
Ye'Cind -
I believe this'll wrap up by 1:30 my time. I'll be asleep when the next round begins, but I'll make an update before I nod off. Labelas and Hanali. That should be a lot more interesting than Somebody vs Nobody.
EDIT: It is now 1:30 my time/10:30 Wizards time, which means that the first match is over. In no surprise at all, Corellon's managed to advance, leaving Ye'Cind to go **** off back to Greyhawk. Now let's move on. This round will conclude at 11:31 my time, 8:31 Wizards time. *In the event that there are no votes in a round, or there is a tie, I shall cast the deciding vote.*
ROUND TWO: LABELAS ENORETH VS HANALI CELANIL
Go!
Labelas and Hanali. That should be a lot more interesting than Somebody vs Nobody.
I didnt even know who Ye'Cind was. Im not up on all the Greyhawk stuff, but i just now read up on him. Kool guy. Epic bard, so good even the Seldarine were moved by his music. Sounds pretty kool, still i Gotta stay with Corellon.
OOOh Round Two! .....Fight!!!
I know its not a fight, just popularity contest, still in my mind's eye theyre fighting.
Tough one, I really dig Labelas, being the Elven Q and all, but i feel bad for Hanali. Like shes owed one or something. Hmmmm......Still I gotta go with my man Labelas!
Corellon
Elven Q!
Fascinating dialogue on the previous pages, Meldread and Stigger. I do tend to Meldread's side on the matter but I think both sides were very well presented and explained.
Only point I'd like to bring up, Stigger, is in reference to this:
Which I think is why I do take so much exception with the pantheon condensing in 4e, because it doesn't make much sense in the wake of the Spellplague. Had they said "Deity X" got wasted in the process and "Deity Y" took over their worshippers and responsibilities while the world recovered, I could have accepted it pretty easily without much fuss beyond "man that sucks for ". But the whole "always was, man those elves and dwarves are idiots for not realizing they were worshipping human deities, even when those humans were still living in caves and farming with giraffe tailbones" thing really bugs the hells out of me.
I think this is working on the presumption that the elves and other demihumans are being dismissed. I don't think this is the case at all, and again there's the presumption of 'human' deities; heck, Shar and Selune existed before either Abeir or Toril.
These revelations would force the temples/churches involved to start playing nice against the real threats presented by the Titans in the face of the destruction of a Weave which had kept them out before (if I've understood that whole bit of history correctly). Would they actively discourage demihumans from worshipping them under their previous names? No - in my campaign at least. They would want them, however, to lay off the inter-racial infighting to focus on the alien threats which have arisen.
On a personal note, I like less gods if only to spare us the number of divine soap operas which have been going on.
Corellon
Yes!!
So whos your pick for round 2 (Labelas vs. Hanali)?
Elven Q!
Yes!!! thats 2 for Labelas!!!!
I apologize for my tardiness, but RL is my top priority (i.e. taking my wife and one-year old out to breakfast). ROUND TWO IS DONE!
With two votes, Labelas manages to put Hanali out of action. Not that she's upset about it. She knows in her heart she's still cooler than Labelas. So we know one match for the next stage.
ROUND THREE: SEHANINE MOONBOW VS EREVAN ILESERE
The Moon Elf Mystic vs Tricky Jack. This one will wrap up at 9:30 PM my time. This should be quite a match, if anyone besides the usual suspects are paying attention. AND.... Go!
Sahanine
and round 2, hanali
Sahanine
And with this, Sehanine takes the lead. Why do I get the feeling this may be the sole vote of this round?
Sehanine - I
Erevan -
and round 2, hanali
I'm afraid Round 2 is already over, and Labelas has won. I originally envisioned the ten hour window as being long enough, but the voting's been low. Then again, it is the weekend. I'm thinking on expanding the length in the next stage of the tournament. However, I don't feel right about expanding the time window now.
Ideally, I'd like to set up a tournament with all the deities, but that's going to need a thread of its own.
Sehanine.
If there are only two voters can we then vote multiple times each?
Sehanine.
And Sehanine begins to secure her victory. Erevan might be in trouble.
Sehanine - I I
Erevan -
If there are only two voters can we then vote multiple times each?
Well, there are more than just you two (overall). Sadly, we can't necessarily rely on an abundance of voters. I'm still settled on "one vote per round". Maybe in the quarter-finals, I'll implement a special rule where a person can cast two votes in a single round of their choice.
Round 2 Round 3:Sehanine vs. Erevan
Gotta go with Erevan here.
Nai Calus get in here man we can tie this up at least!
Round 2 Sehanine vs. Erevan
Gotta go with Erevan here.
Nai Calus get in here man we can tie this up at least!
Well, actually it's round three. No matter.
Sehanine - I I
Erevan - I
Erevan's begun to show some signs of life, but can his fans rally in time? Less than two and a half hours left before the round concludes.
D'oh! Yes round 3, thats what i meant.
:praying to the elven god of dice:
please! please! please! please!
We've reached the two hour mark. The third round will be concluding in a (relatively) short time. Can Erevan pull off an upset? Will Sehanine pull ahead and win the day? Or will they tie, resulting in a final decision by yours truly? Who can tell?
This is perhaps the worst possible way to conduct a vote.
This method only allows you to vote on one deity, and provides no input about any of the others. What if you like both? What if you dislike both? What if you dislike one and only have mediocre feelings about the other?
It is a method that rewards the voters for not voting for whom they might really want. For example, in this current match-up I'm not really fond of either deity, and yet I don't want to see Sehanine win so I'm inclined to support Erevan even though I don't really support him either.
As the voting goes on, it's going to diminish our number of choices to the minimum amount possible: two. Is that really any choice at all?
I would suggest abandoning this method and starting over by having people score the deities individually. This has the reverse effect of all of the above. It's similar to how things work in the Olympic scoring system or when you rate a book on Amazon.
Here is how it works:
1. All of the Elven Deities are placed in a list.
2. People are asked to rank them between 0 and 10 as well as "no opinion." No opinion means just that, and the vote doesn't count for or against the deity, 0 means you absolutely despise the deity, 5 would mean you have about average feelings, and 10 means it is your favorite deity in the entire setting. (Example: Sehanine = No Opinion, Corellon = 2, Sheverash = 8, Erevan = 3, etc.)
3. The deities with the highest average score wins, except...
4. Deities without at least five votes (No Opinion does not count as a vote), are disqualified from winning. This prevents a handful of people from tinkering with the voting system (example: a group who likes Corellon so much they give him 10 and then all the other deities zero, raising Corellon's score while causing all others to fall.) The more people who vote, the more accurate the vote will be.
Advantages:
- Everyone who votes is giving information on just how much they like each deity, not just which deity they prefer over another.
- When someone votes, they not only tell you which deities they prefer, but by how much they prefer them.
- It encourages honesty. I am less inclined to vote *AGAINST* certain deities, simply to see my favorite deity have a better chance in the final match-up.
- It gives voters a full range of choices, instead of limiting them to two, which may in turn get more people to vote.
Finally, start a new thread in the General Forum to conduct the voting to give everyone the opportunity to participate in a 'fresh' thread.
No!!!!
Fight to the Death!!!!
right right ok so its not a fight. still im interested in seeing where this goes. Sure a new thread where we can all chime in on who are favorite Seldarine is, is a good idea, but still i like Manshoons match ups here, has a Mortal Combat feel to it. Cant we do both?
No, you can't do both. You can only do one. I forbid doing both. >_>
In all seriousness, it was merely a suggestion. I realized he was going for a sort of Mortal Kombat theme, but I thought the purpose was actually to figure out which one was the most liked / best of the Seldarine. >_>
So, yes... I guess you could do both, but I'd still suggest starting a new thread. I don't think many people are paying attention to this one anymore aside from us. Hence the low number of people voting.
*snip for the sake of space*
I can't help but appreciate the irony here, for this is what I had in mind for my "All Pantheon Tournament" (see my a few of my posts ago). Fate's funny, I suppose.
No, you can't do both. You can only do one. I forbid doing both. >_>
In all seriousness, it was merely a suggestion. I realized he was going for a sort of Mortal Kombat theme, but I thought the purpose was actually to figure out which one was the most liked / best of the Seldarine. >_>
I figured that I'd focus on the MK, fight for your life style in this. I guess I did lose sight of the popularity aspect. This, though, gives me a reason to incorporate the Seldarine all over again in the Grand Tournament once this is finished.
So, yes... I guess you could do both, but I'd still suggest starting a new thread. I don't think many people are paying attention to this one anymore aside from us. Hence the low number of people voting.
Will do. Though I'd like your input (and everyone else's). For my master tournament, how do you think I should go establishing the rounds? Pantheon by pantheon? Alignment? Other? I figure there would be two stages: the first, which sees each group narrowed down to three. These three are dubbed winners of their specific category (Top Seldarine, Top Lawful Deities, etc...). Then I throw these winners together into an overall "most popular" stage 2(categorization no longer plays a role at this point). I figure the number one winner from this second stage could earn the title of Reigning Champion these boards, since his/her victory would be an indication of top popularity.
It does seem quiet in here. What happened to the angry mob of elf haters?
hehehe, a contest was started and we were not talking about the seldarine but a popular contest, and this was after Mel'ss interesting homebrew portions of the HIS realms, which were very interesting, and the Elf haters just left as they had nothing better to do...
either that or they went to go hang out in the orc thread....
Will do. Though I'd like your input (and everyone else's). For my master tournament, how do you think I should go establishing the rounds? Pantheon by pantheon? Alignment? Other? I figure there would be two stages: the first, which sees each group narrowed down to three. These three are dubbed winners of their specific category (Top Seldarine, Top Lawful Deities, etc...). Then I throw these winners together into an overall "most popular" stage 2(categorization no longer plays a role at this point). I figure the number one winner from this second stage could earn the title of Reigning Champion these boards, since his/her victory would be an indication of top popularity.
It depends on the type of voting system. If it's a 1v1 match-up (as you've been doing) then it is difficult to say. There really is no REAL criteria which works for them.
I mean, you could do something like: Which is your favorite deity of love Sune or Hanali Celanil? That would suit the system much better, because the match-up is more-or-less an up or down vote.
Otherwise, I guess you'd have to pick them at random. However, here is my suggestions:
Round 1: Aerdrie Faenya vs Deep Sashelas
Round 2: Corellon Larethian vs Angharradh
Round 3: Erevan Ilesere vs Shevarash
Round 4: Solonor Thelandira vs Labelas Enoreth
Round 5: Hanali Celani vs Sehanine Moonbow
Round 6: Fenmarel Mestarine vs Rillifane Rallathil
Then put the winners of...
Round 1 vs Round 6
Round 2 vs Round 5
Round 3 vs Round 4
Then the final three go into a three-way death match? >_>
That's the best way I can pair them off in a way that feels "fair."
Will do. Though I'd like your input (and everyone else's). For my master tournament, how do you think I should go establishing the rounds? Pantheon by pantheon? Alignment? Other? I figure there would be two stages: the first, which sees each group narrowed down to three. These three are dubbed winners of their specific category (Top Seldarine, Top Lawful Deities, etc...). Then I throw these winners together into an overall "most popular" stage 2(categorization no longer plays a role at this point). I figure the number one winner from this second stage could earn the title of Reigning Champion these boards, since his/her victory would be an indication of top popularity.
It depends on the type of voting system. If it's a 1v1 match-up (as you've been doing) then it is difficult to say. There really is no REAL criteria which works for them.
I mean, you could do something like: Which is your favorite deity of love Sune or Hanali Celanil? That would suit the system much better, because the match-up is more-or-less an up or down vote.
Otherwise, I guess you'd have to pick them at random. However, here is my suggestions:
Round 1: Aerdrie Faenya vs Deep Sashelas
Round 2: Corellon Larethian vs Angharradh
Round 3: Erevan Ilesere vs Shevarash
Round 4: Solonor Thelandira vs Fenmarel Mestarine
Round 5: Hanali Celani vs Sehanine Moonbow
Round 6: Labelas Enoreth vs Rillifane Rallathil
Then put the winners of...
Round 1 vs Round 6
Round 2 vs Round 5
Round 3 vs Round 4
Then the final three go into a three-way death match? >_>
That's the best way I can pair them off in a way that feels "fair."
Well, I don't mind branching away from the 1 on 1 style here. I was sort of thinking about holding a general "Rank these Deities" in the first round. The categorization would be based on some common theme(which has yet to be decided. Pantheon? Common theme?). Each category would yield three top deities, who'd be named the top three most popular in their respective category. After, I'd combine them into an overall "Most Popular of the Most Popular". For instance, I'd take the top 3 Seldarine, 3 Mordinsamman, 3 Human deities, etc., etc., and place them together in the second stage. People would then vote on which of this new batch is their favorite. The winner of that one, I figure, would be the closest thing we'd have to "Most Popular Deity on the Boards". Alternatively, I could do as I just said, but instead of giving everyone an equal footing, I'd compare the scores of the winners to the losers of other categories. If winner 1 of Category A receives fewer votes than loser 1 of Category B, he may not advance to the second stage.
The problem there is among most demi-human pantheons the deities tend to share an alignment, for example most of the Seldarine are Chaotic Good, with notable exceptions. Since the demi-human pantheons are smaller and tighter knit, there also is not much overlap in portfolios making it difficult to compare one deity to another. (For example, what is the best deity among the Seldarine to go up against Labelas? I am sure you could elicit a number of different opinions.)
That is why I came forward with my suggestion to use score voting. If you want to figure out who the most favorite deity in the entire Realm's is, then score voting is the best to use because it gives you a wide range of information. When you vote up or down on a deity, it's not a good indication that the deity you are choosing is actually more favored than the one you are voting against, just that it is more favored in that particular match-up. Thus, it inevitably screws up the end result.
The problem there is among most demi-human pantheons the deities tend to share an alignment, for example most of the Seldarine are Chaotic Good, with notable exceptions. Since the demi-human pantheons are smaller and tighter knit, there also is not much overlap in portfolios making it difficult to compare one deity to another. (For example, what is the best deity among the Seldarine to go up against Labelas? I am sure you could elicit a number of different opinions.)
That is why I came forward with my suggestion to use score voting. If you want to figure out who the most favorite deity in the entire Realm's is, then score voting is the best to use because it gives you a wide range of information. When you vote up or down on a deity, it's not a good indication that the deity you are choosing is actually more favored than the one you are voting against, just that it is more favored in that particular match-up. Thus, it inevitably screws up the end result.
I understand the effectiveness of score voting, and I plan on using it for the next one. It's how to group the deities that concerns me. I'm not sure whether I should do "Who's the most popular god in Pantheon X", "Who's the most popular CG deity of all", "Who's the most popular Nature deity of all", etc. I'm not just thinking on the Seldarine here, but all the pantheons. I'd like to get one overall winner, not just in their respective category, but also in comparison to the winners of the other characters. I could just make a massive list of every deity alive and dead, but that would get too messy.
Yeah i would do it by Pantheon. There are lots of FR god so i could see it geting confusing rather quickly. So yeah go by pantheon and then the champions of their pantheons could duke it out.
The question is what pantheons are we gonna use? just the 4e ones, or are we gonna throw the Maztican, Untheric, and Mulhorandi pantheons in there too?
Yeah i would do it by Pantheon. There are lots of FR god so i could see it geting confusing rather quickly. So yeah go by pantheon and then the champions of their pantheons could duke it out.
My only concern is that if I do go by pantheon, I know that the fourth-place Human god/dess is going to have more votes than say, the second-place Orc god/goddess (who would be a winner). Unless I go for the #1 most popular of each pantheon, and then compare the results, so that the one with the most votes out of any pantheon is declared the overall winner. But then, we're faced with the same conundrum: If Deity X of the Seldarine had fewer votes than Deity Y of the Mordinsamman, why should X advance? He's technically not more popular overall.
The question is what pantheons are we gonna use? just the 4e ones, or are we gonna throw the Maztican, Untheric, and Mulhorandi pantheons in there too?
This is another thorn. Don't forget Kara Tur, too.
I suppose that, to avoid difficulties, I could simply avoid jumping to the second stage. Merely go by category, and announce the top three, without combining the winners for a second stage.
EDIT: It would appear the third round has come to a close. Sehanine has managed to outwit the Fey Jack. Thus, she has claimed the third round as her own. However, due to a shift in plans, I'm temporarily suspending the next round, whilst I begin to prepare for the tournament to come.
noooooooooooooooo
might you put in its own thread then????
I think it should be done by Pantheon. That makes the most sense. Exclude the Faerûn Pantheon from the voting since they're not really a Pantheon per-say, but just a bunch of survivors from various minor pantheons that have been wiped out, interlopers who've shown up and the like.
noooooooooooooooo
might you put in its own thread then????
I do intend to create a thread for the new tournament. Now the only question is: Do I create one, major thread in which each Pantheon will be addressed, one at a time, or do I make a thread for each Pantheon? I'm leaning towards the former, because the latter would be far too messy. I don't know whether to start a new thread for our current competition, though.
My only concern is that if I do go by pantheon, I know that the fourth-place Human god/dess is going to have more votes than say, the second-place Orc god/goddess (who would be a winner). Unless I go for the #1 most popular of each pantheon, and then compare the results, so that the one with the most votes out of any pantheon is declared the overall winner. But then, we're faced with the same conundrum: If Deity X of the Seldarine had fewer votes than Deity Y of the Mordinsamman, why should X advance? He's technically not more popular overall.
Yeah good point i didnt think of that. Yeah that might be a little tricky to figure out in a way thats fair and balanced.
This is another thorn. Don't forget Kara Tur, too.
Ah yes Kara Tur, i didnt really think of the Celestial Beuracacy as a pantheon, but they got kicked out during the ToT too, so yes they should count too. I also forgot the Zakharan Pantheon.
I suppose that, to avoid difficulties, I could simply avoid jumping to the second stage. Merely go by category, and announce the top three, without combining the winners for a second stage.
Still Id like too see the Pantheons go head to head too, but that might be a little moot, Id be willing to put money on the Faerunian Pantheon coming out ahead in popularity.
EDIT: It would appear the third round has come to a close. Sehanine has managed to outwit the Fey Jack. Thus, she has claimed the third round as her own. However, due to a shift in plans, I'm temporarily suspending the next round, whilst I begin to prepare for the tournament to come.
Nooooo!!!!! He got beat by a girl!!! oh the shame!!!!
Kool that youre preparing for the upcoming tournament, i still like the Mortal Combat style and want to see this play out.
Still Id like too see the Pantheons go head to head too, but that might be a little moot, Id be willing to put money on the Faerunian Pantheon coming out ahead in popularity.
Hence why I hesitate to do so. The Faerunian elite would cream the competition. Only a few demihuman deities would be able to hold their own.
Nooooo!!!!! He got beat by a girl!!! oh the shame!!!!
*waits for Pamela to cast Meteor Swarm upon Silversword*
Kool that youre preparing for the upcoming tournament, i still like the Mortal Combat style and want to see this play out.
I'll gladly continue the MK style battles, but I fear that if I put them in General, they would be confused with my next project. Unless I make the MK style battle the every-deity-in-one slobberknocker I playfully contemplated. That would be noticeably more different than the serious, intellectual discussion tournament. More exciting...
thread for each pantheon works....
Man screw Sehanine she's one of the stupidest sodding things 2e inflicted on D&D at least Erevan is awesome.
Also 10 hours isn't enough, FFS, I check these like once a day right now and I've been at WWGD all day representing for Corellon.
Corellon, Erevan, Labelas, Sashelas, Solonor and Hanali bitchslap the rest of those losers and pitch them into a fire. Aerdrie bores me so screw her. Fenmarel, Sehanine, Angharrardh andSHevarash are BS 2e retcon lameness so who caes any way.
i may be sligly drunk and am definitely tierd so whatever.
I could see Angharrardh Whoopin some ass, being two Goddesses AND a Primordial could be quite an advantage id say.
It doesn't matter...Cyric will own all of those B*****S!
before or after Eravan steals the staff that hold's mystra's soul??
After Cyric sticks it up his *** sideways...
My, Cyric has some interesting hobbies, sticking stuff up his own *censored*.
My, Cyric has some interesting hobbies, sticking stuff up his own *censored*.
Huh? wait a minute...are you saying.... no....NO.....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
or wait, i see, youre saying Cyric sticking it up his (Cyric's) *** . I thought you was saying Cyric is Erevan. But youre not
...right?
no its that Cyric sticks his own fingers up is *** ( all 11 of them)
It doesn't matter...Cyric will own all of those B*****S!
Well, Cyric won't be going up against the Seldarine ladies. However, I'm thinking about making a discussion about the Faerunian pantheon. Though I agree with Meldread that the FP is just a mish-mash of gods, I still want to give it a chance. It just has to stay the **** away from the other pantheons. So Cyric will have his chance against Shar, Sune, Talona, Waukeen, etc....
Mortal Combat!
or sorry in our case i guess it would be
Immortal Combat!!!
But any way to get back on topic (sort of)
Whats the deal with star elves? Would they be eldarin? or elves? or maybe a mix of the 2? If i remember my lore right they were a branch off of the green elves, so i guess that would make them elves. Still they dont have any feats associated with them, like Wood Elf Agility or Wild Elf Luck. So what sets Star Elves apart from other elves? What sort of racial feats (if any) should they get?
My, Cyric has some interesting hobbies, sticking stuff up his own *censored*.
Huh? wait a minute...are you saying.... no....NO.....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
or wait, i see, youre saying Cyric sticking it up his (Cyric's) *** . I thought you was saying Cyric is Erevan. But youre not
...right?
You were correct the first time. Dont listen to the Elf hype. The Elf hype will lead you to sunder planets, banish races to the underdark, summon Killing Storms...damn, I just converted myself right now! Praise Correlon!
Im not sure i follow your conversion process there but what the hell!
Corellon!!!
You were correct the first time. Dont listen to the Elf hype. The Elf hype will lead you to sunder planets, banish races to the underdark, summon Killing Storms...damn, I just converted myself right now! Praise Correlon!
There's no going back now. (Where's my devil smilie when I need him?) You know what they say: Once you go fey, you'll go no other way.
Corellon
and this is my 1600 post.
must catch up with Delta
CORELLON. ONE R. TWO LS. RRRRRRRRRRRAGE.
Though I am pleased that you have finally come home to the loving embrace of Corellon.
This is such a tender moment!
now lets all hold hands and sing kumbaya
Damn it! now youre just trying to get us all blasted with flaming firery death fire!!!!
Praise Correllon!
Damn! I left my ring of protection against Flaming Firery Death Fire in my other pocket.
gonna have to go out singing!
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
You will be alright, now when he starts chanting...you better start running. Running to the other side of the planet. You know what happens when Elves start chanting, planets sunder, killing storms appear, tidal waves wipe out countries, races get banished. Wow I can now blame the California Wild Fires on Correllon, the 2004 tsunami on Correllon, Hurricane Katrina on Correllon. He is Evil, more Evil than that b***h Cyric. And Correllon isn't in jail either!
*Running Away*
Curellon for the fail.
*because he is one
Miserable evil infidels.
*uses Mindrape on those of you who somehow aren't evil, and Sanctify the Wicked on the ones who are* There, now we're all nice happy followers of Corellon who know how to spell his name right.
Corellon's name is spelled wrong at one point in Elfsong, and it totally ruins the book.
ok, not really, but.
Miserable evil infidels.
*uses Mindrape on those of you who somehow aren't evil, and Sanctify the Wicked on the ones who are* There, now we're all nice happy followers of Corellon who know how to spell his name right.
Is raping the minds of others the only way the elves know how to win converts? Cause it sure seems like it.
Good thing I have my "Girdle of Mind Shielding" on at all times.
Mind ****=FAIL!
Praise Curellon!
SPELL IT WRONG ONE MORE TIME AND I KILL YOU ALL WITH FLAMING FIREY DEATH FIRE THAT IS ON FIRE. AND ALSO FROZEN.
CORELLON. ONE R. TWO LS. RRRRRRRRRRRAGE.
what he said
SPELL IT WRONG ONE MORE TIME AND I KILL YOU ALL WITH FLAMING FIREY DEATH FIRE THAT IS ON FIRE. AND ALSO FROZEN.
RRRRRRRRRRRAGE.
SPELL FIERY WRONG ONE MORE TIME AND I KILL YOU ALL WITH GALEB DUHR SWARMS AND RUST MONSTER HORDES. F-I-E-R-Y. "I" BEFORE "E", FOLLOWED BY "R". AAAAAAAAAAANGRY!
IF one more person does thta again, I will burn you all with Rimefire....
Freezer burn
SPELL IT WRONG ONE MORE TIME AND I KILL YOU ALL WITH FLAMING FIREY DEATH FIRE THAT IS ON FIRE. AND ALSO FROZEN.
RRRRRRRRRRRAGE.
SPELL FIERY WRONG ONE MORE TIME AND I KILL YOU ALL WITH GALEB DUHR SWARMS AND RUST MONSTER HORDES. F-I-E-R-Y. "I" BEFORE "E", FOLLOWED BY "R". AAAAAAAAAAANGRY!
I seriously thought it was spelled firery
Miserable evil infidels.
*uses Mindrape on those of you who somehow aren't evil, and Sanctify the Wicked on the ones who are* There, now we're all nice happy followers of Corellon who know how to spell his name right.
Nuh uh
i ran away!
I offer us all abit of caution, we either must bring this thread back on topic, or we risk the wrath of bringing in the ORCs to lock the thread.
and then we will ahve to start a new one
oh and Foxxie at twilight for goddess of forbidden love
Yes we should get back on topic.
Sittin here jamin to some tunes, and gets me thinkin of theme songs. All the Seldarine should have theme songs.
Ill go first: Labelas should definatly have Time (as made famous by Pink Floyd) but only by these guys.
oh and Foxxie at twilight for goddess of forbidden love
Seconded!
Corellon's name is spelled wrong at one point in Elfsong, and it totally ruins the book.
ok, not really, but.
you serious about the names of Corelon, conveniently I remember Elaine's post from here
I always sigh a little when people get huffy about alternate spellings of gods' names. Folks who are indignant about Lolth vs Lloth really ought to read Celtic myth and legend. Or Slavic, or Egyptian. Standard spellings simply don't exist IRL. When there's no exact phonetic equivalent from one language to another, variations occur. It makes perfect sense to me that when Drow is translated to Common which is rendered in English, we're getting a phonetic approximation of the original name. For that matter, I grew up with an approximation of my father's family name because very few people on this continent can properly pronounce (much less spell) the original Polish. That's the reality of translation from one culture/era/language to another ...
Corellon's name is spelled wrong at one point in Elfsong, and it totally ruins the book.
ok, not really, but.you serious about the names of Corelon, conveniently I remember Elaine's post from here
I always sigh a little when people get huffy about alternate spellings of gods' names. Folks who are indignant about Lolth vs Lloth really ought to read Celtic myth and legend. Or Slavic, or Egyptian. Standard spellings simply don't exist IRL. When there's no exact phonetic equivalent from one language to another, variations occur. It makes perfect sense to me that when Drow is translated to Common which is rendered in English, we're getting a phonetic approximation of the original name. For that matter, I grew up with an approximation of my father's family name because very few people on this continent can properly pronounce (much less spell) the original Polish. That's the reality of translation from one culture/era/language to another ...
In this case, ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the Sellduhreen, new and improved!
Kuraellen Lurrethean, Laybolass Inorith, Sehuneen Moonbowe, Hunaalie Scelaneel, Airevin Iluhseer, Shevvurash, Fenmahril Messtareine, Airdree Fainyah, Deep Sasshulus, Sollonohr Thellandeeruh, Angurrad, Rillufain Rallathill
you forgot The Fox at Twilgiht the goddess of forbidden love and an exarch or Corellon
ook serisly we shood get bk to sum serius diskushun aboot tha Seldarene, anf noot speeling!
thays b nedin sum theem muzik for realziles. adn diid wes evr deicide wjat tha deaal wit Rillufain? prmal arckfey sprit? cmon peeples le'ts ghet seriness ups en hear!
you forgot The Fox at Twilgiht the goddess of forbidden love and an exarch or Corellon
I like Fox better as a mortal. She doesn't need divinity. She's amazing as it is.
And as for getting back to the topic, what haven't we discussed that hasn't been run into the ground? I mean, we've even gone over Rillifane's fate plenty of times. But, for the sake of moderation, let us regain our focus.
Rillifane is just napping in his forest. Erevan thought it would be funny not to wake him. No, not serious enough.
The revelation that Aerdrie was always Akadi is a heresy being perpetuated by Auril. Same with Sehanine=Selune (by Lolth), and Hanali=Sune (by Sharess, who has always been jealous of Sune, the little *****). How will/would the Seldarine ladies respond to these heresies?
good point. We have pretty much discussed everything not covered by the books. I still want to know what the deal with Rillifane is though. I would kill to get a look at those Internal Continuity Documents! But you got something interesting with some heresies goin on! I like it! i just might use some of that. I could see some sorta holy war goin on there! but on the other hand does Hanali really care that human worshipers consider her a human deity? She still gets god points for that right? It doesnt seem to bother Bane that quite a few of Hoar's worshippers consider him to be an Exarch of Torm. Torm doesnt mind it either apparently so im thinkin maybe Torm is gettin something from it too?
back to the spelling thing: I just realized the spell checker is telling me that Corellon is spelled wrong! It should be Carillon!
And i still want to see Mortal Combat: Seldarine eddition!
And I still think they all need theme songs really! But no one else seemed to want to play that game so ill go again!:
Rillifane's theme song
I could see some sorta holy war goin on there! but on the other hand does Hanali really care that human worshipers consider her a human deity? She still gets god points for that right? It doesnt seem to bother Bane that quite a few of Hoar's worshippers consider him to be an Exarch of Torm. Torm doesnt mind it either apparently so im thinkin maybe Torm is gettin something from it too?
Well, here you bring up an interesting point, namely the role of Exarchs. Thing is, should Torm even know? Just because they "acknowledge" (at least, that's what they think) Torm as Hoar's master doesn't mean Torm gets a direct line to these thoughts. Hoar's master is still Bane, even if they don't realize it. So, even though they send prayers to Hoar envisioning him as Torm's servant, said prayers still go directly to Hoar and Hoar alone, but are passed along to Bane by Hoar's will, since he is the actual master. It seems it's not how one envisions the prayer, but the reality of the situation. In other words, just because the priests believe Hoar is with Torm, doesn't mean Torm gets any knowledge of the ruse, because the prayers are still being sent to Hoar himself. Hoar chooses to pass these requests along, since they are directed at him. Hoar disregards Torm (whom he is no longer affiliated with), sends them to Bane (from whom he draws strength), Bane gets filled in on the mortal's confusion, and Torm... gets nothing, because no one was praying to him directly.
I must say, though, I ignore this change, because I like the gods to have their own power, be they at the top of the food chain or at the bottom as demipowers. Making them depend on one another for security, aid, companionship, etc? Fine. Making the weaker deities depend on Greater Gods for their own ability to fulfill their roles as gods? Doesn't flow with me.
EDIT: And I realize this has nothing to do with the Seldarine. ****.
Yes good point, would Torm even know? I'm going by the older edition where if you say a gods name out loud they hear it, but even then these guys probably arent yelling out Torm, itd be Hoar. So hmmmm yeah i guess Torm would be pretty clueless in that regard. Still i see it as belief is power, so Torm should be gettin something, or at least know whats up? I dont know that could go either way depending on how the DM wanted it. I guess thats the main thing, however the DM wants it. I think they just leave a little to much vague in there, i mean that was always the big thing about the Forgotten Realms, the rich history and the detail, and it seems like theyre just throwin it all out the window. Still i guess there is a plus side, its now definalty "your Realms".
And this is more or less on topic as we're talking about exarchs,more or less, and most of the Seldarine are now exarchs.
so whats the bonuses for joining the arvandor group???
you get a tree to hug
Screw that! what do we get for joining the Black Network?
Screw that! what do we get for joining the Black Network?
A Realm to occupy...
We have a wide variety of lands just waiting for us to close the deal and end their sovereignty.
Oh, and you know what they say: Once you go Black, you never go back.
Yes!!! I got to say that sounds alot better than a tree to hug!
I like Fox better as a mortal. She doesn't need divinity. She's amazing as it is.
Ayep.
The revelation that Aerdrie was always Akadi is a heresy being perpetuated by Auril. Same with Sehanine=Selune (by Lolth), and Hanali=Sune (by Sharess, who has always been jealous of Sune, the little *****). How will/would the Seldarine ladies respond to these heresies?
Hee hee hee . . . let me see [starts typing]
Wait, what's this? [sees WotC writer's guidelines--particularly PG-13 rating re: love and play]
Curses! Foiled again!
Cheers
P.S. You know what they say: good things come to those who wait.
Sounds like you got something big planned EriK!
yes but is it a good thing or a bad thing and is Foxxie involved?
Screw that! what do we get for joining the Black Network?
A Realm to occupy...We have a wide variety of lands just waiting for us to close the deal and end their sovereignty.
Oh, and you know what they say: Once you go Black, you never go back.
and this is coming from a Helmite??
for shame
Yes! Ed Answered My question over on Loremaster! I specificaly asked him about Hoar because i was wondering if he was a wholly Realms god or an Interloper deity, thats irrelevant though for the discusion at hand. We've had these debates about exarches and aspects, appearently there is only a handfull of "real" gods and all the rest are just aspects of those gods. Some interesting stuff!
And by the way this should totaly be Sehanine's theme song.
and this is coming from a Helmite??
for shame
Hey, I'm still a Helmite. I'm just a Helmite whose ambitions are.... flavorful.
The Watcher never put a stop to my plans in the past. He must realize the land will be better off with yours truly in charge. It won't be so bad. The people won't suffer, they'll still have some freedoms. It's just, ultimately, I'm pulling everyone's strings. In accordance with the will of Helm, Ao, and Ed.
And because this too is off-topic, I shall steer towards the path: Develop a Ragnarok-type scenario for the Seldarine. And go, creative minds of the boards!
I was going to say something about Ragnarok being a Norse mythology thing, but then i recalled elves, especially dark elves featuring prominently in Norse Mytholgy (if i remember the old Thor comic book right). So yes i could see that fitting. Thats a hell of an idea man, but i got nuthin right now, let me go read up on some Norse mythology and i'll get back to you.
The following I of course don't actually believe or endorse at all, but it makes use of some of the stuff mentioned in Planescape, namely that the Seldarine came out of Ysgard and conquered Arvandor from the gods of the giants, and that the elves of Alfheim apparently don't want anything to do with the Seldarine.
Pfft, don't you know that the Seldarine already avoided Ragnarok? Corellon used to be part of the Norse pantheon, but after creating the Elves and caring for them for a time, he began to worry about their future, and about who would take care of his children when Ragnarok came. He gathered several like-minded minor deities the elves had some reverence for, and they decided that for the good of the elves they would form their own pantheon and leave the Norse pantheon to its own devices, though it wounded them deeply to abandon their fellows. They left Ysgard for Arborea, and conquered the realm that would become known as Arvandor, throwing out the gods of the giants. Freyr and Freya took up the protection of the elves who refused to follow the Seldarine in their abandonment of the Norse gods, and to this day the elves of Alfheim in Ysgard want nothing to do with the Seldarine, whom they see as traitors. Few of the elves of Arvandor recall the ancient split, but those that do see it as an example of the love Corellon and his fellow gods have for their people, that they would forever leave their home and original pantheon to ensure that they could continue to protect their mortal charges.
Blasphemy, all of it. :p
ditto, blashphemy
Blasphemy? perhaps, but it does fit in with the whole ragnarok theme.
what exactly would cause ragnarok any way? i mean they already had a spellplauge? what could be worse than that? What other gods could we kill off any way to cause a catastrophic change? Maybe Cyric or no hes imprisoned, ok maybe Shar, no definatly Lolth! Lolth kills Corellon, and that screws everything up, maybe that even unravels Arvandor and the rest of the Seldarine end up in the Elemental Choas.
Akadi, Sune, And Selune all get stuck in the form of Angharradh, causeing much confusion for their various churches, perhaps even open hostilities amonst themselves.
Shevarash goes crazy and goes on a killing spree, seeing everyone else as an aspect of Lolth.
And Rillifane... well hes not even mentioned in 4e so i guess we dont have to do anything to him, or wait wasnt he like an aspect of the world tree or something? ok so maybe killing him would set off elven ragnarok ok so forget about killing off Corellon, Rillifane is like the heart of Arvandor so he gets offed and everything goes to crap.
uhm... thats all i got for now..... someone elses turn.......
ok after reading up some up on Ragnarok, it was like the final battle between Loki and his alliess and Odin and the other norse gods.
So yeah scratch what i said about Shar, should be Lolth. So Lolth and her allies storm in Arvandor and all hell breaks lose. I still like the concept of Rillifane being offed which causes Arvandor to unravel, or maybe Rillifane is poisoned by Lolth, perhaps She sneeks in, and taints Rillifane or something, and this taint is spread to all the other Seldarine, and they all slowly start going insane, and turn on each other. Or they turn on the Gnomes, i forget about them, sneaky little Gnomes. Then Lolth just sits back and waits for them to finish each other off, then she moves in for the kill. Maybe Lolth doesnt kill Rillifane, Corellon does, once he figures out whats Lolth's done to him, and that he is the source of the madness, unable to find a cure, and some what crazed, he decides that by offing Rillifane that will stop Lolths madness that is spreading throghout Arvandor, so then when that happens, thats when the poo really hits the fan.
I like how this thread was resolved back in post #5, but has continued on for another 280 posts.
See, all you Seldarine haters, what would this board do without them? :p
well as I said somewhere else.
we have nothing else to do.
all the new stuff goes to the ddi subscribers, and the old guard are more or less gone so....
might as well throw bones at each other's topics...
@Nai Calus: post #282 is awesome.
Heck the Elves and Corellon couldn't conquer Thor and Odin so they moved on and beat up on some stinky nasty giants!
It's not over till the fat lady elf sings!!!
elves dont get Fat, half elves do
elves dont get Fat, half elves do
Yeah i know! thats the point!
itll never be over
BWAHAHAHAHAHAA!
well you could also come up with a spell called Extreme bloat.......
elves dont get Fat, half elves do
Are you saying Arilyn will become fat? Them's fightin' words!
elves dont get Fat, half elves do
Are you saying Arilyn will become fat? Them's fightin' words!
well she did become fat, her NDA offspring....
different fat though.
but no she takes waaaaaaay to much care of herself to get fat
@Nai Calus: post #282 is awesome.
Heck the Elves and Corellon couldn't conquer Thor and Odin so they moved on and beat up on some stinky nasty giants!
The Seldarine would be ****** if they tried to tango with the Aesir. Or the Vanir. Or the Jotun.
I'd think Hanali would make a better ****-buddy than Sehanine, but Corellon probably knows something I don't.
Yeah we all know damn well what Shevarash is doing in the 'soothing embrace of Shar'. ;p
Poor Solonor. They really haven't ever done anything with him. I'm not sure they've ever bothered mentioning him anywhere at all outside of sourcebooks, and even there not much past the god books. The most exposure I can think of him getting is me naming a cat after him.
Almost all of my Elven Rangers have worshipped Solonor. My current 4E Elven Ranger worships Solonor alongside Sehanine. (Read: She pays lip service to Sehanine, and prays to Solonor for her arrows to fly true.) It just hasn't come up in gameplay yet in a way that affects mechanics, so it hasn't been an issue.
Fat elves... now there's a weird thought. One I didn't really need thank you very much.
Back to Arkham Asylum for me on that note, to imagine those thugs I'm beating down are elves instead of humans, because Joker is obviously tainted by elven impulses to commit the evil he does.
der be no elves in batman....
There are elves everywhere, you're just too unclean to see them, you filthy heathen infidel.
By Bahamut's FAngs consider yourself smited
Haha Bahamut moar liek Ban00bmut.
Get a real god. Like Corellon.
Haha Bahamut moar liek Ban00bmut.
How long you been waiting to crack out that gem?
Get a real god. Like Corellon.
Or goddess, when the mood suits her.
Haha Bahamut moar liek Ban00bmut.
Get a real god. Like Corellon.
Torm take you
BAhamut take you
Amaunator smites you
Selune smites you
Corellon take you
Tempus and REd Knight take you
Helm take you
May WAukeen make your buisnesses fail
and may these Primordials nail you
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfGpVcdqeS0
Don't mind him, he's just bitter because in his wicked little heart, he knows that the elves have been revealed as the villains and monsters they are, and he's lashing out, hoping we'll be fooled by the indignant response into thinking maybe we were wrong about them. But... we're onto the elves and their minions, so fear not and don't be baited by his natural elf H8rness.
What!? Elves arent monsters! Theyre a careful lot intune with nature! Living off the land and whatnot. How could you call them monsters!?
Well i guess they are in the monster manual so i guess perhaps they could be considered monsters, but carefree intune with nature monsters, which really arent that bad.
Theyre a careful lot intune with nature!
They're a foul lot who **** the land.
Living off the land and whatnot.
In the same way locusts live off the land, yes.
but carefree intune with nature monsters, which really arent that bad.
That's what they want you to think.
As an aside, I'm surprised how easily the anti-elf sentiments pop up. It's so easy to find an opening and roll with it.
As an aside, I'm surprised how easily the anti-elf sentiments pop up. It's so easy to find an opening and roll with it.
Yeah whats up with that? Im thinkin its because of their "feyness". But Gnomes are fey too and i havnt seen too much Gnome bashing on here. Of course they did get left out of the PHB so maybe people feel sympathy for them?
Personally i got to say elves are ok in my book, as long as theyre not part of the Eldreth Veluuthra, thats a bad lot there.
gnomes suck....
I was once, you know along time ago the head torturer of the cult of the anti-gnome.....
*channels LK*
Back to the Seldarine...
Anti-Elf sentiment pops up easily because they lend themselves to it due to the atrocities they unleash upon Abeir-Toril and its denizens...
Unleash Killing Storms? Check. (gold elves there)
Banish and condemn entire subspecies for crimes they themselves are guilty of? Check. (dark elves)
Wipe out entire civilizations on accident? Check. (humans on the sword coast, just for starters)
Wipe out entire civilizations on purpose? Check. (okay, so they did sometimes ask for it)
Subjugate and Manipulate entire intelligent species for their own benefit? Check. (dragons with that whole dracorage thing)
Practice bigotted and descriminatory practices towards anything that isn't elven? Check. (Myth Drannor anyone?)
And that's just for starters off the top of my head without going into too much (gory) detail. You don't see gnomes or hin pulling that kind of crap on the world... dwarves and humans, despite their many flaws, don't even come close to the atrocity elves heap upon the world. Chaotic good... yeah, right... and if you believe that one, I have a bridge to sell you in Waterdeep...
Chaotic good... yeah, right... and if you believe that one, I have a bridge to sell you in Waterdeep...
Hey I have already purchased that Waterdavian bridge!
hey man lay off those elves, we all know they are brutally definsive when it comes to them and their own
Elves arent that bad really! Sure in the past they might of messed some things up a little, but no more than those pesky humans! And that Dracorage Mythal was a great idea, otherwise wed still all be ruled by dragons!
not to mention on what some of them would of demanded from your women....... human sacrfices.....
the elves never did that, sure they looked down on ya, but they didn demand sacrifecing virgins to dragons....
Unless you count using humans (among other races) as fodder during the Fall of Myth Drannor...
You know, the ones who fought harder than the elves did in defense of an elven Realm...
that mind you was just arrogance on the whomever was in charge of the armies at the time, which was yes an elf, and likely to have been the long dead arms major at the time, before Fflar.
but iirc I dont know which elf he was....
and the council had dirty hands in the matter.
would of been better to ask for volunteers and make a retreating stand...... oh well.
in war, there are to many dead heroes
Didnt we already have this argument?
The elves were busy performing a ritual to trap the Army of Darkness in the confines of Myth Drannor to stop the Spread of EVIL!
Didnt we already have this argument?
The elves were busy performing a ritual to trap the Army of Darkness in the confines of Myth Drannor to stop the Spread of EVIL!
I dunno...
I was there man! I saw it all go down!
I was there man! I saw it all go down!
... The elves probably just warped your memory. What you saw as preparing a ritual to aid the defenders was probably just them slaying human children and devouring their innards for sadistic pleasure. They're quite good with magic, those elves.
(Man, this is so easy.)
yeah that may be Lord MAnshoon the lord of battlemagical might, but its also old and kind of boring already.......
its not like we were drooloing over this one bit fo art that had a stalfos droping an almost bear nude princess zelda in to a carnevous plant......
yeah that may be Lord MAnshoon the lord of battlemagical might, but its also old and kind of boring already.......
... As opposed to singing the praises of the elves? I think that'd get old even quicker than the verbal lynchings did.
But let us then return to the elven entity most worthy of adoration: Shevarash!
if you say so.....
Im still trying to get the mental image of Elves killing small children and eating their innards out of my head.
Shevarash will get you for that!!!
any elf cought eatint the innards out of heads are no better than drow......
might be worst thiunking about a pit trap full of dead slimes, which would just be slime...
fixed
Shut up! thats not what i meant! what i meant was ... oh never mind!
what you dont think female elves would find said trap embarrasing???
Im sure they might, or just think its icky.
I was meaning the eating innards out of my head part.
it doesnt taste like chicken I bet...... but I saw a halfling do it over there is you Athas.....
any elf cought eatint the innards out of heads are no better than drow......
Which is why I can't wait for someone to dig up a dirty little secret tucked away by the Moonflowers regarding an old diet of theirs. Boy, would that make Ammy blush (even if she's dead).
Look man that was a long time ago! Times were different then!
now you know what treally happened to Moonblade's mother......
Cyric's pink silken corset, you people are STILL on this tired old crap?
Back on topic. :p
Didnt we already have this argument?
Yes about every other month or so. Its about time for this arguement to come back around. The Evil of the Elves cannot be hidden, Praise Curellon!
Cyric's pink silken corset, you people are STILL on this tired old crap?
Back on topic. :p
Well, I was thinking about composing a battle hymn in honor of the Black Archer. You know, one his faithful would sing as they slaughtered drow and burned the corpses of spider-kissers. Would that be on-topic enough for you?
In discussing the murderous thugs also known as the Seldarine, its important to understand the deeply inherent corruption and vileness of their mortal followers, the elves.
At least the Seldarine DO something when tressyms and other fuzzy critters are endangered by unthinking actions of gnomes and hin. Brandobaris, Garl Glittergold and Yondalla just laugh in their hysteric little high pitched voices.
*dodges the incoming divine flames*
: P
At least the Seldarine DO something when tressyms and other fuzzy critters are endangered by unthinking actions of gnomes and hin. Brandobaris, Garl Glittergold and Yondalla just laugh in their hysteric little high pitched voices.
*dodges the incoming divine flames*
: P
Hey, don't drag the hin into this. Animals haven't suffered at their hands. All they ever wanted to do was take naps, eat large meals, and liberate the unattended possessions of others. Luiren is an ideal example of this lifestyle... before it got tidal-waved to kingdom come. *cue nekkid halfling dancer girl comment from sfdragon*
oooh nekid female elven tabletop dancers.....