I am considering doing one class with the multiclass into the other, but I thought I'd ask advice from the board as to how they see them.
Thanks.
-If the book says that Druids don't worship nature deities, ignore it. If the book says that Clerics don't worship nature spirits, ignore it. Anyone can worship anything they want. They might not necessarily worship something that can empower them, but they can worship whatever they want. Wizards were never shoehorned into worshiping Mystra, and no one else, Rogues shoehorned into worshiping Mask, and no one else, Paladins shoehorned into worshiping Torm, and no one else, and so on.
I'd like to poll all the 4e FR players and DMs here as to how they would build a priest of Chauntea. The obvious choice is cleric, but the FRCG calls them druids, and the druid powers seem more in line with what they should be doing. Unforuntately, fluff wise, druids worship spirits now, and not the gods of nature, the earth etc.
The core flavor text may not apply to the Realms, necessarily, and as LK said you can just throw out whatever you dislike anyway.
My thought is that Chauntea is actaully both a goddess and spirit, since she's a divine goddess and living spirit of Toril. So is both a Primal and Divine power source. So she can empower Avengers, Clerics, Invokers and Paladins as well as Barbarians, Druids, Shaman and Wardens. One aspect is to seperate the aspects as Chauntea the goddess and Eartmother the spirit, while maintain they are the same being just different outlooks with overlap.
Note: Barbarians/Druids/Shaman/Wardens can worship gods, it's just in core they choose not to. It doesn't affect their powers since they are not divine classes. They do tend to nature deities or those with natural aspects like Kord and storms.
It hasn't been adressed in 4e so far, but in 3rd edition, druids and spellcasting rangers could only receive their power from a nature-oriented deity. No one could receive divine magic from nature itself. I'd say the rule still holds in 4e, with primal powers coming from divine beings just as divine power does, but I still haven't checked the PHB2, so it'd depend a lot on the flavor of those primal classes (I still have a hard time seeing a barbarian as a divine character).
As for the "druid" entry in the deities table in the FRCG, I'd say that's just a title with no impact on the rules. Just like high elves use the rules for Eladrins but are actually called Moon Elves or Sun Elves in the setting, I'd say "druid" is the name given in the setting to any priest of Chauntea, whether they're using the rules for Clerics or Druids, the same way as I'd see both Clerics and Warlocks of Asmodeus using the name Mordrai. I really see classes as nothing more than sets of powers. If you want to use the rules for the druid, change the flavor slightly and call you character a priest, I don't see the problem.
The issue is the same with the former Elemental gods. Formerly they were able to have divine characters like Clerics and Druids, but now as Primordials this is not as possible as before.
The two possibilities to this:
1) A hybred being. A being who is both Primal and God or Primodrial and God.
2) Primals/Primordial are allies/servants of gods.
3.5 Edition:
All superhuman powers came from an arcane force or a divine force. Druids in this edition were a divine caster, and so had to gain power from a god. Arcanist knew that Mystra provided the weave but didn't have to pray or worship to access it.
4 Edition Core:
There are multiple sources of supernatural powers. Arcane, Divine, Primal, Ki, Elemental, Shadows and such.
Primal spirits are are the collective essence of living things on the mortal plane ranging from nameless spirits to ancestor spirits to nature spirits to the Great named spirits like Fate Spinner and Primal Beast.
3.5 Edition Realms
All divine powers came from gods, even those who worship nature were gods. Gods could be divine mortals, living essences of mental construct, elemental lords and the like.
4 Edition Realms
Everything is unknown.
Previous lore by history and tradition is continued unless corrected. So all powers comes from gods when talking divine. Yet is the Primal power source a different aspect of the Divine source or something different?
Primals can worship gods, and yet spirits are not gods in core.
Which brings up the question of Hybred patrons or spirit allies.
This is a good question to ask Ed Greenwood. Which I will do now.
The issue is the same with the former Elemental gods. Formerly they were able to have divine characters like Clerics and Druids, but now as Primordials this is not as possible as before.
-Being, however, that in the past they have had priests/priestess', and granted their priests and priestess' spells, unless an explanation is given that dictates why they no longer do so, there is no reason to believe that they no longer can, or do. Precedence has already been set that Akadi (as both Akadi and Aerdrie Faenya), Grumbar, Ishtishia and Kossuth have priests and priestess', and that they grant these priests and priestess' spells. As Steve Schend has suggested, changes to rules, when they throw established precedent and lore out of whack, in relation to the setting, simply need to be ignored, when viewed in the context of the greater setting as a whole.
Priests make more sense for Chauntee - she is about agriculture, which is a way of 'modifying' nature.
Druids don't modify nature - they protect it. Druids would rather see a pasture full of wildflowrs then a field full of corn.
Both are possible, but priests make more sense. Leave the druids to Silvanus where they belong.
Just my opinion -
Priests make more sense for Chauntee - she is about agriculture, which is a way of 'modifying' nature.
Druids don't modify nature - they protect it. Druids would rather see a pasture full of wildflowrs then a field full of corn.
Both are possible, but priests make more sense. Leave the druids to Silvanus where they belong.
PH2 Comment:
Primal classes in Core no longer care about the civilization of the world, since this in the broad term is part of the natural development of the world committed by natural creatures.
It is creatures who disturb the world's natural order who they fight. Aberrations and Primordials who want to twist the world in shapeless chaos, undead who pervert the natural patterns of life and death, and demons and some Primordials who want to tear the world a sunder.
So with Core there can be farmland Druids who shape shift into dogs, cats and cattle for instant who worship Chauntea as a natural redevelopment of the world.
Primordials:
Rich Baker shared an opinion on primordial followings in the Realms a while back.
Click arrow.
Druids as I have said above are not against civilization or the development of land into cities and farms, and might even be convinced by the gods to work on their behalf.
A Druid would have no problem with a wizard using his magical rituals to aid a farmer with increasing his farmland and animals. But if the same wizards made deals with Aberrations, Primordials, the Far Realms or tried to become the lich leader of an Undead army... Time for the druid and his friends (barbarians, wardens, and shaman) would start to kick his butt, and all would also be willing to worship Chauntea.
An Urban or Farmland Druid might have different names/wild shapes for powers based on the animals and aspects of nature in their landscape, but they are possible in the Fourth Edition world.
It sure as hell ain't that thing some D&D designers made-up, or the guys over at Blizzard with the Warcraft Game.
Yes, you can say a D&D Druid is anything you want... but your not really a druid... not at all.
While I'm not against it and may even prefer it in some respects, the druid class by itself may be a touch too bold considering the pastorals' rep. (Hello, they're called pastorals! :P) The main offenders are the very pronounced weather--especially cold & wind--effects (conceivable but a bit showy) and the first healing power (an attack that also does taboo fire damage to an enemy). Not game-breaking but perhaps a stretch; additional power choices or reflavoring might help. On the other hand, the vine & thorn attacks are great, as are some of the utilities (such as barkskin, chant of sustenance, and primal restoration) and a number of alchemical formulas (especially herbal poultice, antivenom, and tracking powder). The vines, in fact, almost make me want to take a look at the warden.
Although I purposefully did NOT do it for this little exercise, I think multiclassing is definitely the way to go. Whether your pastorals are druid mc clerics (I like the feel of these) or cleric mc druids (probably the closest 3e match) or a mixture of both, the mechanic seems to capture them well IMHO.
Do you even know what a Druid is?
It sure as hell ain't that thing some D&D designers made-up, or the guys over at Blizzard with the Warcraft Game.
Yes, you can say a D&D Druid is anything you want... but your not really a druid... not at all.
Hehe. Your definitive statement doesn't quite settle things. Are you talking about the historical, PH2, or Chauntean "Druid??" :D
Do you even know what a Druid is?
It sure as hell ain't that thing some D&D designers made-up, or the guys over at Blizzard with the Warcraft Game.
Yes, you can say a D&D Druid is anything you want... but your not really a druid... not at all.
To Quote the PH2:
"A Primal Character's greatest concern is with the creatures and forces that threaten the the stability of the world and the Balanced cycles of Nature. In a broad view, The cities and civilizations of humans and other races are just as much a part of nature as are the primeval forests and mountains, and just as worthy of protection.
There might be some conflicts and disagreements between such (Gods/Civilizing forces) characters, but they also have many common foes."
A Chauntea Druid is not going to against a city, for in his mind it is momentary. Human's natural urges like other races is to build, like a beaver's dam. However, nature or other forces might take out the people in those cities and the natural environment will take it back usually.
He might aid the city to live with the environment, which in our culture would mean recycling or building electric cars. Creating more urban garden projects or more green spaces within those cities.
They might also use their knowledge of the soil to make sure the farmer returns the nutrients he took out this season in the next.
A fourth edition druid is not against urban environments, he might just have a disagreement on how it is to develop. Liking with the environment rather then controlling it.
Sorry if my words are not coming out right.
A Chauntea Druid is not going to against a city, for in his mind it is momentary. Human's natural urges like other races is to build, like a beaver's dam. However, nature or other forces might take out the people in those cities and the natural environment will take it back usually.
I love it! How great would it be to have a patronizing elf druid calling all his human friends "little beavers" at play with their silly civilizations. :P
In addition to the humor, that is a really great analogy.
Also there is the fact with the change of rules and tone makes an impossibility possible, URBAN DRUIDS!
Actually I think that concept does in fact predate 4E.
I remember discussing it a while back on Candlekeep.You don't necessarily need 4E rules to run a druid who takes a broader view of the wilderness vs. civilization conflict than is usually portrayed.
I'd like to poll all the 4e FR players and DMs here as to how they would build a priest of Chauntea. The obvious choice is cleric, but the FRCG calls them druids, and the druid powers seem more in line with what they should be doing. Unforuntately, fluff wise, druids worship spirits now, and not the gods of nature, the earth etc.
I am considering doing one class with the multiclass into the other, but I thought I'd ask advice from the board as to how they see them.
Thanks.
Fluff is mutable. Either one is perfectly workable. If you want to be a druid of of Chauntea, knock yourself out.
Sorry if my words are not coming out right.
Actually, they were perfect, and allowed me to understand that perspective (although I still gag when I hear 'Urban Druid').
In fact, I'm in the mddle of Spellfire right now (Great Book!!!), and a Druid in there says pretty-much the same thing regarding his 'charges' in Shadowdale (the town being a natural out-growth of human population expansion).
See? As long as Ed says it its good - If anyone else says it it's crap. :P
I tried to keep minor options (skills, background, rituals, equipment, etc.) identical and in both cases aimed for that old Chauntea feeling. :P What best expresses that is rather subjective, of course. I thought the Bloom ritual was a shoe-in (I gave one ritual per level), and the Consecrated Ground cleric power was a surprising fit! Assuming these are at least passable representations...any thoughts on which is "better" in your opinion?
Pastoral (Cleric McDruid)
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Chauntean Clr McDrd, level 5
Human, Cleric
Build: Devoted Cleric
Background: Dalelands
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 15.
Starting Ability Scores
Str 12, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 14.
AC: 18 Fort: 14 Reflex: 14 Will: 19
HP: 43 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 10
TRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy, Heal, History, Insight, Nature, Religion.
FEATS
1: Ritual Caster
1: Initiate of the Old Faith
1: Chauntea's Blessing
2: Human Perseverance
4: Novice Power
POWERS
1, At-Will: Sacred Flame
1, At-Will: Lance of Faith
1, At-Will: Priest's Shield
*, At-Will: Wild Shape
1, Encounter: Pounce
1, Encounter: Twisting Vines (retrained from Divine Glow with Novice Power feat)
*, Encounter: Channel Divinity (incl. Turn Undead)
1, Daily: Beacon of Hope
2, Utility: Cure Light Wounds
3, Encounter: Daunting Light
5, Daily: Consecrated Ground
ITEMS
Ritual Book, Chainmail, Magic Staff +2, Sling, Sling Bullets (20), Magic Holy Symbol +2, Adventurer's Kit
RITUALS
Gentle Repose, Banish Vermin, Bloom, Undead Ward, Delay Affliction, Speak with Nature
*(Class feature listed for completeness.)
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Chauntean Clr McDrd, level 5
Human, Cleric
Build: Devoted Cleric
Background: Dalelands
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 15.
Starting Ability Scores
Str 12, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 14.
AC: 18 Fort: 14 Reflex: 14 Will: 19
HP: 43 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 10
TRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy, Heal, History, Insight, Nature, Religion.
FEATS
1: Ritual Caster
1: Initiate of the Old Faith
1: Chauntea's Blessing
2: Human Perseverance
4: Novice Power
POWERS
1, At-Will: Sacred Flame
1, At-Will: Lance of Faith
1, At-Will: Priest's Shield
*, At-Will: Wild Shape
1, Encounter: Pounce
1, Encounter: Twisting Vines (retrained from Divine Glow with Novice Power feat)
*, Encounter: Channel Divinity (incl. Turn Undead)
1, Daily: Beacon of Hope
2, Utility: Cure Light Wounds
3, Encounter: Daunting Light
5, Daily: Consecrated Ground
ITEMS
Ritual Book, Chainmail, Magic Staff +2, Sling, Sling Bullets (20), Magic Holy Symbol +2, Adventurer's Kit
RITUALS
Gentle Repose, Banish Vermin, Bloom, Undead Ward, Delay Affliction, Speak with Nature
*(Class feature listed for completeness.)
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Marius, thanks for the examples. This is currently where I am in by debate as well. I am sure now that MC mix is the way to go to create more specific priests(IMO I think it the secret of 4e character viability). I am wrestling with the mix Cleric-mc druid or Druid- MC cleric is more appropriate.
Thank you all for your opinions. I too believe that the fluff is transmutable at my whim, so even though the hlaf of my chauntean power will be primal, i don't really think it means anything in the long run.
Marius, thanks for the examples. This is currently where I am in by debate as well. I am sure now that MC mix is the way to go to create more specific priests(IMO I think it the secret of 4e character viability). I am wrestling with the mix Cleric-mc druid or Druid- MC cleric is more appropriate.
Depends... do you want to play a Controller with some healing/buffing powers or a Leader with some mass damage/foe manipulation powers?
Bel
I mentioned the flashy weather powers before, but take a look at wild shape. For both sample Pastorals it would be an at-will power. For the Druid McCleric there is also a beast form attack available at-will; however, for the Cleric McDruid a beast form attack is (more appropriately) available only once per encounter. I just don't see Pastorals turning into wolves and bears as a basic, repeated tactic in fights. Turning into cows to surprise & then lecture misbehaving village children...now that I can see. ;)
So there is another opinion for you, Seakog. Regarding the FRCG labelling Chauntean priests "druids," again I might have them officially be referred to as "Pastoral Druids" and "True Shaper Druids" but pretty much not called that by anyone off the books.
Chauntean priests pray to the Great Mother at
sunset. For her favor, she asks that her faithful spend
every effort preserving the natural cycle of growth
and harvest. The devoted are divided into two sects:
the pastorals, who minister to farmers and
villagers, and the true shapers, solitary
druids who find truth in the wild lands yet
to be tamed.
I'd read that as pastorals are cleric class, true shapers are druids, with a bit of MCing depending on local traditions and allowing for the odd exception, they're all called druid as a formal title, but that's doesn't determine class.
I'm thinking that the fat, indolent pastoral serving some quiet farming community in the heart of Imperial Cormyr might very well be a straight cleric, while the iron-willed pastoral guardian of a herding community up towards the Thunder Peaks might put rather more of her emphasis on druidic powers. (Hm, I just got an idea for an NPC)
I'd also rule that a lot of the primal nature spirits on Faerûn have a relationship with a god - they seem to hang out at sites associated with the gods, so that the druidic powers of a True Shaper are derived from primal servants and allies of Chauntea. Likewise for a druid of Silvanus. On the other hand, a shaman might well be allied with spirits that owed allegiance to no god.
Well, let's see: the FRCG seems pretty clear on this, or as clear as they could be before the PHB2 came out:
I'd read that as pastorals are cleric class, true shapers are druids, with a bit of MCing depending on local traditions and allowing for the odd exception, they're all called druid as a formal title, but that's doesn't determine class.
I'm thinking that the fat, indolent pastoral serving some quiet farming community in the heart of Imperial Cormyr might very well be a straight cleric, while the iron-willed pastoral guardian of a herding community up towards the Thunder Peaks might put rather more of her emphasis on druidic powers. (Hm, I just got an idea for an NPC)
I'd also rule that a lot of the primal nature spirits on Faerûn have a relationship with a god - they seem to hang out at sites associated with the gods, so that the druidic powers of a True Shaper are derived from primal servants and allies of Chauntea. Likewise for a druid of Silvanus. On the other hand, a shaman might well be allied with spirits that owed allegiance to no god.
Nice post. I love the two pastoral characters you put forth, and cool stuff on the spirit:gods fluff.
PH2 Comment:
Primal classes in Core no longer care about the civilization of the world, since this in the broad term is part of the natural development of the world committed by natural creatures.
It is creatures who disturb the world's natural order who they fight. Aberrations and Primordials who want to twist the world in shapeless chaos, undead who pervert the natural patterns of life and death, and demons and some Primordials who want to tear the world a sunder.
So with Core there can be farmland Druids who shape shift into dogs, cats and cattle for instant who worship Chauntea as a natural redevelopment of the world.
Hey, I'd agree with that view. I'm the one who argued Samwise as a druid: he's the greenest thumb in a COUNTRY of green thumbs, and he got a very druid-like magic item of specially empowered potting soil.
And he's using ''Pass Without Trace" a lot in Mordor :D
Casadi Shieldheart
Pastoral Druid of Chauntea
A tall, spare, grey-haired, grey eyed middle aged woman clad in the brown cloak of a pastoral druid of Chauntea worn over a tunic and breeches. She always carries shepard’s crooked staff and will cast aside her cloak at a moments notice to assist a lambing or help treat a sick sheep: she tends to the herding communities of the Volkumburgh Vale (see “The Shattered Statue” in the Thunder Peaks south-west of the East Way.
She uses the form of one of the large guard dogs that the herders use to protect their flocks from raiders when she wild shapes, though there are tales that when she runs with her mate, a True Shaper who spends more time as wolf than man in the high lands around the Vale, she takes the form of a small grey female wolf.
She is healer and defender for the shepards, travelling tirelessly between their camps on the high pasture when the weather allows and helping them wait out the long bitter winters in the lower valleys.
Casadi Shieldheart, female human druid Lvl 8
Medium natural humanoid XP
Initiative 14 Senses: Perception
HP 67 Bloodied: 33
AC 17 Fortitude 14
Reflex 14 Will 16
Speed 6
Righteous Brand, At-Will
Feast of Fury (encounter)
Pounce (encounter)
Consecrated Ground (daily)
Cure Serious Wound (utility)
Channel Divinity
Healing Word
Wild Shape
Alignment: Good
Skills: Religion, Heal, Nature, Alchemy.
MC Druid
Str 13 +1 Dex 12 +1 Wis 18 +4
Con 16 +3 Int 11 +0 Cha 10 +0
Equipment: Holy Symbol of Chauntea, Staff, Dagger