Reneshat, many people feel like you, myself included. Although I somehow like how these elemental giants are done, I personally don't like these elemental titans. At least not with this appearance. Maybe if you've seen Gaea in the God of War series, that's pretty similar (in appearance, not power!) but I just don't feel comfortable with titans being similar to elementals. I'd prefer the titan as appeared in the Ecology of the Titan article in Dragon Magazine (I don't remember which issue).
-I'm not necessarily sure I'm understanding correctly...Titans are like the "upgraded" versions of Giants, now?
Maybe--I recall reading in one of the preview books that there are going to be "supersize" versions of each giant, partly because they made great miniatures for them (something to that effect).
By the way, did you guys also check out some of the other new excerpts, such as Epic Destinies and Economy. LK, the showcased Epic Destiny is the Archmage. ;)
Maybe--I recall reading in one of the preview books that there are going to be "supersize" versions of each giant, partly because they made great miniatures for them (something to that effect).
-Wow, what a great reason for changing things...
By the way, did you guys also check out some of the other new excerpts, such as Epic Destinies and Economy. LK, the showcased Epic Destiny is the Archmage. ;)
-I haven't really been following any of the 4e stuff, let alone the ones not related to the Realms.
-I haven't really been following any of the 4e stuff, let alone the ones not related to the Realms.
I was just wondering what you might think of it.
Apparently, if you chose "Archmage" as your Epic Destiny, it means you are the preimenant archmage in the world.I was just wondering what you might think of it.
-Inconceivable! We all know that that title- Preeminent Archmage of the Multiverse- is reserved for me, and me alone!
-Inconceivable! We all know that that title- Preeminent Archmage of the Multiverse- is reserved for me, and me alone!
That's why I figured you'd be interested.;)
I was wondering how serious/literal that bit of text was, though--what if the party has two mages in it, and they both want the Archmage ED?
I was wondering how serious/literal that bit of text was, though--what if the party has two mages in it, and they both want the Archmage ED?
"Here, I made you a cookie!"
"Gee, thanks! ... Hey, wait a minute!"
"Here, I made you a cookie!"
"Gee, thanks! ... Hey, wait a minute!"
-"That's no Oreo cookie! Those are two small Spheres's of Annihilation, with cream filling in-between them!"
As for The Archmage destiny, at least now we know why Elminster had to be 'dumbed down'. He's being replaced, by an egotistical power-gamer.
I wonder how they are going to handle this in LFR?
If "there can be only one", then I CALL IT!!! :P
Now NONE of the rest of you can use it, because I called it first. Strange how they are writing rules that only one certain person on the planet can use... I'm not sure if I'm following their business model here.
One epic destiny per player, taking LFR into consideration, means they are going to have to come up with about 100,000 epic destinies.
Then again, considering how many people are actually likely to play in 4e FR, they only need a couple of dozen.
Sorry... just couldn't help myself. Every time I promise myself not to knock something I haven't seen yet, I hear some new detail that just makes it TOO easy to do so.
"Another time, MacLeod!"
(Maybe we should just call it the Retcon Realms).
-Hmm...
If "there can be only one", then I CALL IT!!! :P
-If you look above, I already occupy that position. And, with Dan out of the way, there isn't anyone to challenge me for it.
-Wait a minute...You're not even a Wizard...Best I can tell, you are an Infernal Half-Orc Cleric...
A true archmage does not care about recognition.
-You, sir, are obviously not an Archmage, then. ;)
It's been a while, and I just had to let it out!
I was just wondering what you might think of it.
Not exactly. It means you are one of the preeminent archmages in the world. A name like Mordenkainen or Bigby, one of the people who defines and codifies magic for the rest of the world, and whose name becomes synonymous with magic.
You don't REPLACE Elminster when you get to Archmage. You JOIN him.
I knew something was wrong with that idea.
About as odd as a katana-weilding Scottsman. ;)
I thought it was going to be like back in the old days with Thieves and Druids, where you had to take out the last 'top guy' to get the rank. Although I can see why they got rid of that, I do so miss that weird piece of lore.
In FR, only the Magister had that distinction.
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!
It's been a while, and I just had to let it out!
-Yes, it does seem to have been a bit too long since the last time that the glory of my mere existence has been celebrated...
-You, sir, are obviously not an Archmage, then. ;)
Comfort yourself with that conceit. I care not. ;)
Comfort yourself with that conceit. I care not. ;)
-It takes one to know one, and, for all your delusions of grandeur, you ain't one. That's not to say you're a nobody, though. You're a somebody, of course. Just, not The Archmage.
The Archmage? No, never claimed to be, nor would I wish to be. I have better things to do with my time than hang a target on my back. ;)
-How can you claim to know the inner workings of the mind of an Archmage, then? As the old addage goes, "It takes one to know one"! :P
-But, to get back on topic...Being as that there are no more Titans in the Forgotten Realms, I wonder how that's going to work...Yeah...
As to Titans... were they ever much of a presence in the Realms to begin with? Planescape, sure, Realms, not so much. Though really, I have to admit that 4e is probably screwing the Planescape crowd over far worse than it is the Realms.
Enlightenment and Ascension is my path, not something as pedestrian as the Archmage's path. :P
-Eh, been there, done that...:whatsthis
As to Titans... were they ever much of a presence in the Realms to begin with?
-Currently, no, but there is a story as to why that is.
Can't say I ever much cared about Titans though, yet another bit out of Greek mythology worth ignoring as far as I'm concerned.
As for The Archmage destiny, at least now we know why Elminster had to be 'dumbed down'. He's being replaced, by an egotistical power-gamer.
I wonder how they are going to handle this in LFR?
I'm wondering about that, too. It's not in the tradition for the Realms setting to have one "Great Archmage of the Planet." And let's face, it that's what the text states outright--the PC who has this ED is the preeminent Archmage of the world, not a preeminant archmage of the world.
Mage 1: "I took the Archmage Epic Destiny--I am now the world's preeminent wizard!"
Mage 2: "Neat, so am I!"
Not exactly. It means you are one of the preeminent archmages in the world.
That's not what the text said, though.
"As the Archmage, you lay claim to being the world’s preeminent wizard."
"Archmages are an idiosyncratic lot. There’s no telling what choices the preeminent wizard of the age will make when he has completed his destiny. "
I'm going by what the words actually say, not what I would like them to say, or what I think would make more sense.
-Wow, what a great reason for changing things...
Thats about the level of intelligence going into these types of decisions
Pathfinder is looking better and better by the minute... even if I really like the 4e ruleset, this fluff stuff is just killing my opinion of the game...
tell me about it. You would think they could something right
-Note that a MMORPGy sounds pretty crazy, and moderatley disgusting.
But I'll definitely agree with the retreading getting old fast with the new blatancy they seem to have adopted. At least they used to give us slightly different names for this stuff, lame as they often were. It's like they're not even trying any more.
Put that together with the five colors... errr... paths of magic, and they've finally married D&D to BOTH of their card games. :D
Like I've said, I really like the Elemental take for the Giants (Fire, Frost, and Stone giants were already canon), but I don't see it fitting into the FR setting at all. In a different world, GREAT... but FR already had something established.
I am looking forward to when they do Planescape, though - the new Cosmology intrigues me, even though it stomps all over FR.
Maybe Ogres will be the base creature, and Giants will be the 'Second Evolver', and Titans the 'Third Evolver'.
-Gotta Catch 'Em All!
How could they possibly come out with Planescape, considering they trashed one of the central tenets of the setting by getting rid of the Bloodwar, and certainly seem to have gone the way of seperate cosmologies rather than the unifying theme of the Great Wheel? Great swaths of lore got swept out the door when it came to planars, far worse than they did to the Realms as far as I can tell.
-The same way the Forgotten Realms are still the Forgotten Realms. Close, but no cigar. ;)
...
-Yeah, I thought so! :P
-Yeah, I thought so! :P
:P
A semblance of the Planescape setting...
-Ah, there it is.
How could they possibly come out with Planescape, considering they trashed one of the central tenets of the setting by getting rid of the Bloodwar, and certainly seem to have gone the way of seperate cosmologies rather than the unifying theme of the Great Wheel?
Good question. I guess (if they actually were to redo that setting for 4E), they would just use the new cosmology? *shrug* It wouldn't be the same though, obviously.
Sigil will be included in the new planar setting mentioned in the new DMG. A semblance of the Planescape setting can be made with all the berks and cutters, philosophical factions, elbowing through crowds of the horrific and monstrous and mystical portals to the demesnes of the other planes. Shouldn't be that hard. I heard in december the newest planesbook is due for release so we'll just have to wait and see.
If we remember that universe isn't really a Great Wheel - that that was just one way to represnt an abstract - then its pretty easy to rectify a great deal of the Planescape setting with the new core cosmology. The Bloodwar would be the only 'rough spot' that I can see, and that can be handled fairly well just by saying "to some fiends it IS the most important thing, to others... not so much". So, yeah, instead of the all-encompassing, monolithic thing it was back in 2e, now its just a large number of skirmishes taking place on many levels in a number of worlds and planes. It always seemed to me that the fiends of FR largely ignored it, except for a few specific cases.
Anyhow, if you take the 'hub' of the Great Wheel - Sigil and the Outlands, and just said that the "Gate Towns" were really just that - Gates - everything is peachy-keen. In fact, there wouldn't even be a difference for the most part - you move through the town and enter another plane - how you explain that is all a matter of perspective, once again.
The fact that the elemental planes have been combined with the Abyss is a bit confusing, along with fiends being 'corrupted' elementals - but thats how it is in RW magic (Wiccan). These 'spirits' are all just elementals, and some get pretty nasty. Its a big change for D&D, but it isn't bad in and of itself.
They are also combining the Plane of Shadows with the Negative Plane, and I thought that meant they were combining the positive with the Feywild (for balance), but it appears they are not. The fact that the are trying to avoid 'symetry' now is obvious; I just think not having a positive plane at this point is a bit weird.
I personally would like to see what they come up with, before I tear it apart. Although I've always been a 'Wheel Man', I don't mind changes to the cosmology - it really doesn't effect the world I run games in. I'm sure Planescape fans will feel much the way we do about the new FR, but thats par for the course.
The mind reels... it's like a bloody train wreck.
You owe me a napkin - my monitor has spit on it. :D
I guess that's my problem ultimately. It isn't the same. I know, I know, things change, blah, blah, blah. That's not my point. My point is that by using the 'old name' for this stuff, you're automatically carrying a lot of old baggage and expectation with those names, and by not sticking to (at least)the spirit of the 'old name', you're only going to bring a lot of bitterness from the fans who were expecting a straightforward update as compared to something utterly different masquerading as their old 'beloved' setting or whatever really.
How is one of my current characters going to survive a planar realignement when he seeks a portal from the Barrens to Sigil to find a way back to Fearun. Will existing permanent portals to the planes lead to unexpected planar destinations? The spellplague article said something in the like of drawing some domains nearer to Fearun, others entirly drifting away...
I only hope they will do the realmsian planar cosmology justice in upcoming planar books by furthering lore on the godly domains and the geography of the planar divides in Fearuns planar bubble.
The Great Wheel, while convenient as a visual model, isn't necessary to the Planescape setting really. Neither is the Bloodwar when it comes down to it. Even the alterations to the origins of the various planar races won't really break it. But, once we get to the point 4e is taking things, is any of it really going to be anything even remotely like what came before it?
-Well, the alteration of the Great Wheel will change things, as will the end of the Bloodwar, and the alterations/deletions of various races. They won't break things, so to speak, but they will alter things. Is Coke still Coke when it tastes like Dr. Pepper? Dark cola? Dark Cola. Check. Carbonated? Carbonated. Check. Manufactured by Coca-Cola, inc.? Manufactured by Coca-Cola, inc.. Check...