One thing though: One of the main complaints was that the FR had too many deities. The FGCG addressed this by removing a lot of them or making them aliases of other people. This new article reintroduces Nobanion and Lurue and Eldath into the 4e FR, but they arent deities anymore. My question is why is it that now that they arent deities they are okay, but before when they were deities they were "too much". Does everyone get what I mean? In the future when more gods sand goddesses are reintroduced as deity-like things (but not deities) is it still alright since they arent technically deities anymore? Some of these changes like making gods deity-like things or saints of other people or puppets or whatever else seem like they are made to just be made. They are stil there so why is it that they are not problems now while in the past they were (FR has too many gods/goddesses)?
-A bunch of people complain that there are too many deities, and that that makes things hard (How exactly that happens, with extra deities making things hard, I don't get, but whatever), the perception is born, and bam, you need to "right the ship". If they're not deities, but still exist as something else, things aren't hard because there aren't too many deities, right? ;)
-And, of course, "too many" is a very general and subjective term.
New DMs won't care - it doesn't change the actual number of deities they'd have to be concerned about their players choosing as patrons.
Once they were settled, so to speak, the missing deities could be slipped back in much reduced circumstances. The new/returning people would then be free to ignore them. The stalwarts couldn't complain because at least they weren't gone completely and would face the "Well in your game..." reasoning if they did.
It feels neat, if frustrating.
Just don't call them "Gods". ;)
Yeah, no difference... just excessive terminology and rules-baggage.
:D
I was, however, looking for what there might have been canonwise on the subject thanks Stigger ;).
Because now when someone complains that FR has "too many gods", they can say "those aren't gods, those are Primordials, Archfey, Primal Spirits, Dawn Titans, etc, etc... ad nauseum..."
Just don't call them "Gods". ;)
Yeah, no difference... just excessive terminology and rules-baggage.
-To quote George: "It's all in the mind."
My question is why is it that now that they arent deities they are okay, but before when they were deities they were "too much". Does everyone get what I mean? In the future when more gods sand goddesses are reintroduced as deity-like things (but not deities) is it still alright since they arent technically deities anymore? Some of these changes like making gods deity-like things or saints of other people or puppets or whatever else seem like they are made to just be made. They are stil there so why is it that they are not problems now while in the past they were (FR has too many gods/goddesses)?
The designers wanted the core books to have a limited amount of gods. When they start reintroducing the old gods as something new they hope to appeal to new and old fans. FRs strength and weakness is its history. Alot of people that are not lore fans might get sucked into the story and history of FR if given the chance. "Reducing" gods and "restarting the setting like they did was a ploy to appeal to a newer untapped fanbase. It was a flimflam and a bit of smoke and mirrors. They were trying to make the setting appear different but it was really just the same as before. They were hoping that certain diehard fans who would hate the new stuff would just "deal with it" over time. Any setting that lasts for any amount of time will contain "lore baggage". It is inevitable.
EDIT Pamela has it 100% correct.
I was wondering about this, and maybe it is a question for Realmslore rather than here. But are Primal Spirits inherent to an area or does their area of influence extend to all of Realmspace?
I would say the Primal spirits are all through the world of Toril. I do not call it Realmspace because that refers to 2E Spelljammer
, ;) .Anyway those spirits probably have counterparts all over the world, and I am sure that when PHB3 comes out and Shugenja and whatnot are introduced those spirits can be tied with those classes. Even though Shugenja may be a divine class like it was in 3E but since it deals with the elements I think it may get placed as Primal.
Now, 4e has Exarchs, Deities, Primordials, Archfey, Primal Spirits, Dawn Titans (I'm quoting Markus here), etc, etc etc... There's too many classifications for what should all be the same thing: gods. It's confusing.
.Now, 4e has Exarchs, Deities, Primordials, Archfey, Primal Spirits, Dawn Titans (I'm quoting Markus here), etc, etc etc... There's too many classifications for what should all be the same thing: gods. It's confusing.
-Too hard, too hard. Book am me confusing I. Me dumb dumb. Big word make head hurt.
-And, of course, to take a glimpse back in time:
"Too hard, too hard. Book am me confusing I. Me dumb dumb. Big word make head hurt." (Referencing various deities existing)
Goddess of peace (ok) but goddess of streams and lakes?
Those urban tendencies of yours are showing again... streams and lakes can be very relaxing and peaceful places. :P ;)
Not really, at least not for me. Some beings in the past should not have been gods but something else. Eldath is a good example. Goddess of peace (ok) but goddess of streams and lakes? Anyway to appease the diehards they made her a spirit. She worked her way into an article and people still find a way to complain over it. It appears you cannot please everyone (especially comic or roleplaying geeks)
Why not? By adding a divine dimension to the mix I can think of several ideas for adventures (or novels) that might involve "streams", "lakes" or "peace". That is one reason I asked if the Primal Spirits were global, not local. If worship of Eldath is now confined primarily to the Moonshaes it closes some doors, but opens others. Yet I was interested in knowing the answer.
...not least because if Eldath now is local, it means that I might not see more of her in any article or book that is not Moonshae-bound. That at least is why I asked my question, Rauric. I can work towards accepting the reality of a change, as long as I know what that change actually means.
I think is to sell us old ideas through D&Di.....
Thats what I was thinking. Good thing I have a subcription, so keep the new/old stuff coming. :D
Eldath is probably still global, Iluvrien. There is nothing (yet) to suggest an answer either way, but she was well-known across Faerun before so I don't think she has disappeared everywhere else. I see the article as suggesting her continued presence in Abeir-Toril, not defining its limits.
I really hope that is the case. While I would still like some of the disappeared deities to have retained their churches (which I suspect is something that Primal Spirits may not have, so much as random shrine-age) it is good news that they are still around, and hopefully still global. It is certainly better than the "they were always another deity" retcon. So over all, colour me gruntled.
I really hope that is the case. While I would still like some of the disappeared deities to have retained their churches (which I suspect is something that Primal Spirits may not have, so much as random shrine-age) it is good news that they are still around, and hopefully still global. It is certainly better than the "they were always another deity" retcon. So over all, colour me gruntled.
-No, they can't have 'churches'. They can only have 'cults'.
-No, they can't have 'churches'. They can only have 'cults'.
And yet, I do wonder if the Primal Spirits can rise to having churches in time, if they grow in influence. Generally the sentient bipeds of Faerun seem to like a little bit of structure and hierarchy in their lives, and certainly in their religeons. Especially for someone like Eldath who still doesn't seem to be associated with more "confrontational" values or locations.
I already had an idea for a campaign in which the scattered peoples who revered Eldath might work in some fashion towards unification and thus a degree of stability.
*Pending reversal
So can beholders...
So can rocks
-Nope. We've already been given a blanket statement that cannot be reversed* that is wholly dependent on point of view. It's absolute.
*Pending reversal
Right, and I am going to take, as absolute, the word of the people who thought that retconning half the Seldarine into Aspects was a good way to manage deity numbers?
I may never see such a narratively logical outcome appear in articles or books, but should I ever run the Realms myself, it will more than likely be the basis for, if not my first campaign, an extremely early one.
So can rocks
And trees and sticks. An lo and behold, we got Silvanus... :D
Right, and I am going to take, as absolute, the word of the people who thought that retconning half the Seldarine into Aspects was a good way to manage deity numbers?
-Well, in that sense, they did succeed, technically. The number of deities did indeed go down. It's just that the number of just about everything else- Archfey, Archelementals, Demon Lords, Archdevils, Primal Spirits, and whatever else- has grown to balance everything out!
On that basis, that I seem to strongly disagree with the design team about the handling of Faerun's deific powers, I was querying why I should pay any more heed to the rest of the rules they seem to have laid down than I need to? My experience of the Realms in terms of published material is subserviant to their view (which is hard enough, by the way), what I do with the world is not.
Not really, at least not for me. Some beings in the past should not have been gods but something else. Eldath is a good example. Goddess of peace (ok) but goddess of streams and lakes?
It makes sense to me. She's essentially a goddess of wetlands--it makes no less sense to me than having a goddess of forests.
As for the topic--I think this is really about Brian R. James trying to do homage to the old lore and yes, give something to "old" fans of the Realms (he does tend to do that).
-No, they can't have 'churches'. They can only have 'cults'.
And to this day, I still don't know what that means (a "church" essentially is a cult).
Historically, the difference between the labels church and cult in the real world has to do with differences in community size and social acceptance by the majority (i.e. the term cult is normally used for more fringe groups without mainstream numbers or core beliefs).
Hope that helped,
Monty
Rino,
Historically, the difference between the labels church and cult in the real world has to do with differences in community size and social acceptance by the majority (i.e. the term cult is normally used for more fringe groups without mainstream numbers or core beliefs).
Hope that helped,
Monty
Thanks, but I am aware of all that. I just don't think they are different in terms of function, which is, in my opinion, where it counts.
I'd guess it's largely because that argument, that the Realms had too many deities, didn't hold much water in the first place.
I am with you. Makes no sense. Where deities are concerned more is better
Originally Posted by Stigger
I'd guess it's largely because that argument, that the Realms had too many deities, didn't hold much water in the first place.
Originally Posted by MerrikCale
I am with you. Makes no sense. Where deities are concerned more is better
I'm also with you two on this one, and my homebrew reflects it(Except for the human deities of the other continents of Toril, which have been destroyed/absorbed/merged).
As for that whole 4e nomenclature... thingy, I'm keeping to 3 categories:
-Deities
-Planar Lords (Lords of the Nine, Demon Lords, etc...)
-Elder Evils (Like Dendar, or Abeir's Dawn Titans, for example)
Any other 4e terms (Primordials, Archfey, Primal Spirits, Dawn Titans, etc...) are merely titles or descriptors applied to members of those 3 groups (or their servants).
Just say "its beyond mortal undrstanding" and call it a day. The only people who need stats and rules for such things are people who want to kill gods... and I don't play with those types of personalities.
If you make the mistake of using said beings, you are making the players feel small and insignificant, and any negative results that happen after that can be blamed squarely on the DM for engendering those feelings.
Why use a god, when you can use an uder-powerful arch-priest of the god instead, and accomplish much the same thing? There is no point except for grand-standing.
When you run FR, use beings from FR, and leave outsiders... outside. ;)
Disclaimer: I'm not counting the lower-tier fiends, who have become part of FR's lore since the beginning - I'm talking about guys like Asmodeus and Orcus here. Throwing a nameless Pit-fiend at a party is a great way to get them all to crap their pants... and that's what D&D is all about.
They didn't really simplify stuff... if anything, they made it all way more complicated. All they really did was give us tons more categories to be confused by...
...just don't call them 'gods'. ;)
...just don't call them 'gods'. ;)
-They would smite you, but Archfey/Spirits/Demon Lords/etc. can't smite. That's a deity-only ability. Instead, they agonize/vex/afflict/etc. others. :P