ANDRIO'S GATE: The Reach happens to contain one of Toril's few functioning time gates; a useful tool for bringing characters forward beyond the Wailing Years (1385 DR to 1395 DR) to a more stable time period for campaign play. The time gate is located within Mount Andrus, a volcanic peak within the Orsraun Mountains on Turmish's western frontier. There the time gate has survived millennia despite several volcanic eruptions, shielded from the monstrous heat and the effects of the Spellplague by powerful, and some would say divine, wards. Adrio's Gate is activated by speaking the name of a year as given in the Roll of Years then stepping through the gate's event horizon.
Or the Spellplague. It can do anything and everything, you know!
I am not sure if they still work exactly like that, but I think it is reasonable to assume so.
It is one of those things hidden in books of older editions.
Hm. So, what stops some cleric of Mystra ( or somebody else who can contact her ) from just, y'know, hopping back and warning her about Cyrics attack?
Methinks that somebody didn´t think this device through at *all*. Not that am much surprised, given the general state of affairs....
Oh please, have you ever read ANYTHING time travel related?
Seriously.
If a Mystran Cleric did that, the obvious DM response is.
DM: Mystra expends most of her divine energy preparing for an attack from Cyric until Shar is able to tip the balance and the entire world collapses as a result of all of her traps going off.
Player: What!?
DM: Yes, you caused the Spell Plague...
With that in mind, I can't I see why a Cleric of Mystra, or even one of the chosen, wouldn't go through the Timegate and warn Mystra. Seems easy enough. Step through, Cast Commune and tada.
One further point, the Netheril sourcebook states that it's Mystryl's, and therefore Mystra's magic that protects Andrio's Gate. Heh. So quite how those wards would protect the gate from the Spellplague I don't know.
With that in mind, I can't I see why a Cleric of Mystra, or even one of the chosen, wouldn't go through the Timegate and warn Mystra. Seems easy enough. Step through, Cast Commune and tada.
1. You cause the event.
2. You destroy the world.
3. You make a worse future than before.
That's how time travel works, by and large, according to pretty much every attempt to prevent major disasters through "simple means." Remember Back to the Future!
PARADOX!
Meh. While the examples in most media relating to Time Travel always end up with bad things happening, there are occasionally some where they do things right. Like, you know, Quantum Leap, where careful and well thought out plans come together to improve the future. ;)
Hell, send Elminster through, tell Mystra that she's going to be attacked and killed on this date, and say to prepare there and then on that specific date.
Of course, this is all nonsense really. It's happened, clearly no one will be stepping back in time and WoTC will probably make sure to plug this hole somehow. Still, it's a good distraction from my college work!
DM: "You want to go back in time to warn Mystra?"
Player: "Yes."
The DM chuckles slightly.
DM: "Okay. Are you ready?"
The Player notices the evil grin on the DM's lips and the wicked gleem of anticipation in his eye.
Player: "Umm... No."
The DM frowns, disappointedly.
1) Have Elminster step through a Gate, to visit Ed Greenwood.
2) Have Ed Greenwood give Elminster a copy of A Grand History of the Realms.
3) As the current year on Faerûn is 1375 DR, Elminster knows, through AGHotR what is definitley going to happen over the course of the next ten years, including the death of Mystra.
4) In 1385 DR, when Cyric murders Mystra, have everyone be prepared for it to come.
Anyway, these laws mean that Mystra herself will attempt to stop any meddling in time - which would include warning anyone (including her) of future events.
Anyway, it wouldn't help much even if she broke her own laws and let it happen. The PC is very unlikely to know how Cyric killed Mystra, so saying 'Cyric is gonna do you in' isn't going to help much.
The gate is mentioned so you can 'jump forward' if you like. It's a bit silly, but possible.
Maybe its one-way, and only goes to the future.
But then maybe its not a time gate at all... maybe it just puts you in stasis and shunts you to a pocket dimension until your 'preset timer' goes off. ;)
And if you want to REALLY go back in time, use the gate on Lurath Island - it takes you back to the pre-sundered proto-continent!
Then you can warn the Dark Elves about those nasty Gold Ones.
1. You cause the event.
2. You destroy the world.
3. You make a worse future than before.
That's how time travel works, by and large, according to pretty much every attempt to prevent major disasters through "simple means." Remember Back to the Future!
PARADOX!
Clearly, you don´t read comics. ^^
:-)
Why does the gate need to travel to the past?
Maybe its one-way, and only to the future.
But then maybe its not a time gate at all... maybe it just puts you in stasis and shunts you to a pocket dimension until your 'preset timer' goes off. ;)
And if you want to REALLY go back in time, use the gate on Lurath Island - it takes you back to the pre-sundered proto-continent!
Then you can warn the Dark Elves about those nasty Gold Ones.
I was thinking the same... there's no where telling that Andrio's Gate travels to the past. Maybe it's just a temporal stasis spell that lasts for a hundred years...
Mmm... it reminds me something similar...
I was thinking the same... there's no where telling that Andrio's Gate travels to the past. Maybe it's just a temporal stasis spell that lasts for a hundred years...
Adrio's Gate is activated by speaking the name of a year as given in the Roll of Years then stepping through the gate's event horizon.
Therefore you can travel anywhere in time, you say the Year of Rogue Dragons and you end in 1373 DR. And it doesn't has the same rules that the Time Conduit Spell, it doesn't returns you to the year you traveled from, it's permanent until you step back in the same portal.
DON'T Forget that Mystra doesn't has the Time Portfolio, therefore she can't do anything to prevent time travel during her reincarnation.
Therefore the possibility of going back, warning Mystra and the other gods and stopping the Spellplague are very likely, especially when Gods will not inmediately know that the party knows what will happen in the future.
Therefore the possibility of going back, warning Mystra and the other gods and stopping the Spellplague are very likely, especially when Gods will not inmediately know that the party knows what will happen in the future.
If you think that would work in your Realms, go ahead and DM it so.
It would lead to disaster in my Realms.
of course, Mystra already knew Cyric was coming in my games anyway.
It would lead to disaster in my Realms.
Not necesarry, because Mystra doesn't has to spend every time of her existance to prepare herself for defending her life, she only needs to create a spell/combination of spells that stops Cyric from harming her and that's it (She can create new spells in a standar action), she doesn't needs to even spend more than an hour to be prepared for that and the rest will continue as always.
Not counting that I'll never EVER even mention the Spellcrap in my games. And if any new player hoping to play in 4th edition FR mentions any event of those then he's going to have a big surprise (and I'll make everything that I can do to make him think 4th edition FR is crap).
This IS them plugging a hole. The hole of US rejecting their products!
As stupid as it sounds, this entire future can be prevented? Fantastic! That way, if it bombs (And it might) they can write a series of timegate novels, where people go back in time and their magic doesn't work, and they have to Save Mystra and the world.
I kind of like that. And guess what! Effectively, it PREVENTS an RSE. So NYAH!
I kind of like that. And guess what! Effectively, it PREVENTS an RSE. So NYAH!
No, it's much better than that. It can prevent every single crap made by WotC if they set the destination year to the Year of Wild Magic or even before, get ready for 1370 DR and not even the Shades will exist in FR.
If a player tried this in my Realm's they'd end up being the ones who actually ended up triggering the Spellplague AND it'd be worse than it was before - they would have to travel back in time to stop past versions of themselves from warning Mystra just to fix it.
I think this whole discussion is silly. I mean... really, think about it. Does anyone honestly believe that Mystra did not know both Cyric and Shar (and a whole host of other deities and powerful beings) wanted her flayed alive?
Knowing that somebody wants to kill you is not the same thing as knowing WHEN they'll do it.
If a player tried this in my Realm's they'd end up being the ones who actually ended up triggering the Spellplague AND it'd be worse than it was before - they would have to travel back in time to stop past versions of themselves from warning Mystra just to fix it.
Why? Why you'll force them to do that instead of rolling with what happens? What if they do everything right to stop the Spellplague, you'll still force them through that?
That has a title and it's called Obvious Railroading, one of the worst kinds of offenses a DM can commit, you'll be going against the wishes of your players, and that is the quickest way to loose a gaming group. And I'll bet that if any player wants to save Mystra and prevent the Spellplague is because the player hates the New Realms.
Your argument cuts both ways. I could easily go back through the same portal and kill Midnight before she's able to take Mystra's divine essence and become Mystra. Alternatively, I could go back even further and kill the retarded girl who took Mystryl's divine essence after her suicide, thus effectively ending the existence of the Weave thousands of years before Midnight was even a misbegotten-twinkle in her mother's eye.
Effectively, the moral of the story is this: You should not go around screwing with the time stream. You will not like the consequences. Additionally, you are not the only ones who can use the time gate. If you go back in time to screw with things, other groups will do the same - other groups with an interest in keeping things the way that they were. You could cause a war of epic proportions stretching out throughout all of space and time, eventually causing the collapse of everything.
P.S. This is actually one of those times where Ao is useful. If you tried to screw with time itself, Ao would effectively prevent that from happening to prevent the literal collapse of space and time from thousands of groups (and alternate versions of yourself) going back in time to alter it. At best, you'll go back and change nothing.
...she only needs to create a spell/combination of spells that stops Cyric from harming her and that's it (She can create new spells in a standar action)
Too bad for Mystra that Cyric also has the "Arcane Mastery" Salient Divine Ability and is able to create spells on the fly.
Knowing that somebody wants to kill you is not the same thing as knowing WHEN they'll do it.
More importantly is the HOW, Maybe Mystra/Savras/somebody else knew that she was going to be attacked but not how, hence her inability to defeat/escape Cyric.
Of course, no one is putting forward the fact that it may have been useless for Mystra to do anything. She could have just been a sitting duck, or worse (in the minds of Mystra-fanatics) she could have willingly allowed Cyric to kill her to prevent something even worse from happening.
Frankly, in my Realm's Shar used the Karsus Stone and Moander's Essence which was located in Darkwatch, formally known as the Elven City of Tsornyl. With both of those she basically infected the Weave, and therefore infected Mystra herself, leading to Mystra's vulnerability and eventual death by the hands of Cyric. There was nothing she could do to prevent it, and in fact she welcomed the death because staying alive would have eventually ensured the infection of every wizard across Toril with Moander's corruption. Her death was the only way to prevent the spread.
"All Mystra has to do is use her awesome magic to stop a Greater God."
Apparently, under no circumstances can Mystra be beaten if she's prepared?
Seriously, though
"All Mystra has to do is use her awesome magic to stop a Greater God."
Apparently, under no circumstances can Mystra be beaten if she's prepared?
Can you defeat a prepared Archmage in his own tower?
When you CAN you usually get so wasted by the battle that you're usually dead before a cleric heals you.
It's the same thing with Mystra.
Your argument cuts both ways. I could easily go back through the same portal and kill Midnight before she's able to take Mystra's divine essence and become Mystra. Alternatively, I could go back even further and kill the retarded girl who took Mystryl's divine essence after her suicide.
That's the beauty of it, they made the setting unnecesary by that portal. Now I can even cannonicaly use the Spellplague (not that I will) and yet return to the Classic Realms without Spellplague.
The difference from stopping Cyric to start the Spellplague and stoping Mystryl's reincarnation is like two thousand years ot history and plots, WotC would do the easy thing (like always) and go for stoping Cyric before thinking of changing the Realms history since Mystryl's time.
Not counting that Mystryl did had the Time portfolio and therefore she'll never allow anybody to reach her time without the Time Counduit spell, therefore your idea of killing the little girl is impossible. And the Time Conduit would never allow you to change that event.
And if they do, I certainly doubt they know the circumstances behind Mystra's death, since two 'good guys' died, and the other two fled, people would only have whatever would be reported by Cyric and Shar's clergy.
Cyric might brag about it, but Shar is a keeper of secrets. I'm sure Cyric was willing to take full crdeit. That means when you go back and warn Mystra (as Shar planned all along?), she devouts her FULL attention and power to stopping Cyric, unbeknownst to her that Shar is right behind her and somehow manages to supress or steal Mystra's powers*, allowing Cyric to 'plunge the knife in'. By warning her, you set her up (as Meldread and others have reasoned) - lets not forget that Shar has her own Roll of Years now, and has been 'pushing' events along for twenty years preparing for this final confrontation.
In my version, Sevras is the only one able to finally pierce Shar's obscuring of the timestream around that event, but it is too late, and his intervening only manages to save Azuth and Velsharoon at the last possible moment (hence, his abilities did finally come in handy, but a little too late). Perhaps he appeared at the exact moment Mystra died, and he stepped between Shar and Mystra's still form, deflecting Mystra's power from entering Shar and saving the world, only to die himself in the cosmic explosion that ensues and the resulting collapse of Dweomerheart.
Therefore, Sevras dies a noble heroes death, we understand why Azuth and Velsharoon were forced to flee rather then stand and die as Sevras did, and why Mystra's energies were NOT transferred to Shar, as she had planned all along.
*I can think of at least two artifacts that would have helped her here - the Sceptar of the Sorceror kings, which has the ability to slay gods outright, and the Karse Stone, which has a link to Mystra's energie and can perhaps be used to steal/suppress them. There are probably dozens of other useful artifacts in canon that could also cover the anomalies, and WotC could easily craft a new one (perhaps using the Karse Stone as its basis). Why else did the designers/Authors leave the Kartse Stone in Shar's possession at the end of the novel series? A fragment of something that once took away her powers? C'mon... that one is as obvious as Elminster at a Cheerleader tryout. ;)
Your assuming a goddess of secrets couldn't keep a secret?
She has been PLANNING this for twenty years! Read the Roll of Black Years - she was BEHIND Cyric's ascension! She probably GAVE Bane & Co. the idea to steal the Tablets of Fate, setting the events of the ToT in motion (and WotC has admitted as much, saying the Spellplague really got its 'start' back during the ToT)!
In my scenario, Shar WANTED Mystra to see Cyric coming, to divert all her attention to HIM. She needed someone who Mystra absolutley LOATHED above all else, to catch her off gaurd. Cyric was a dupe, and like a good dupe, he took full credit for the assassination. Shar has been manipulating EVERYONE (including Ao) for quite some time, and set these wheels in motion ages ago.
Who put the idea of stealing Mystra's Power into Karsus' head in the first place? Don't you think that was little drastic, when the Sarrukh, the Imaskari, the Sharn, and another Netherese Arcanist ALL found alternate solutions to the Phaerimm problem, hmmmm? Karsus was brilliant, and yet he made one of the stupidest mistakes in the universe! You don't think it was possible that Shar was manipulating events even back then?
And two thousand Years later (whats time to an immortal being?) she uses a fragment of Karsus to tap into the previously estanblished connection and supress Mystras power, and her ability to come back! For all we know, Shar could have even given the Dark Three the idea to go after Jergal! To be honest with you, if even 75% of this pans out, I will be MOST impressed with Shar, and gain a HUGE new respect for her.
BTW, why go back and warm Mystra? A few agree that that's a huge task not likely to end with good results. So here is how I see it, I'm currently planning an alternate future in MY campaign, I was planning to use The Sorrowwood but now... so, in MY plan, I won't even try to save Mystra, I will rather aid the ascension of the new one, that's the mission, a seven sister. The Spellplague will happen 'cuz the new Mystra will have to struggle to control all the power at first but at end she will be able to, so The Spellplague will occur but not as heavy as it did and without all the repercussions in The Realms.
Doesn't that sound so much more pleasing, then a couple of sentences in the back of a book?
I have no idea if thats the way it fell out, but I'd ike to think that the designers put at least a little thought behind the whole thing - give them some credit, afterall.
People are trying so hard to figure out ways around the Spellplague, and either bring Mystra back or avoid her death altogether...
Problem with that, bro, is that it makes ALL future products useless, before we even get a chance to judge them properly. I'd rather view Mystra and Savras' deaths in a heroic light, and think that they did manage to thwart Shar's main goal at the very end - the aquisition of ALL of Mystra's power.
Some times you just got to let go and give new things a chance...
Not all of them, mind you, I still won't touch the Shades/Netheril with a ten-foot pole, and the Draconians leave me scratching my head, but some of the rest may be 'workable', if given half a chance, at least.
You missed my point COMPLETELY - the time portal, in that instance, was the SET-UP!!!
Your assuming a goddess of secrets couldn't keep a secret?
She has been PLANNING this for twenty years! Read the Roll of Black Years - she was BEHIND Cyric's ascension! She probably GAVE Bane & Co. the idea to steal the Tablets of Fate, setting the events of the ToT in motion (and WotC has admitted as much, saying the Spellplague really got its 'start' back during the ToT)!
In my scenario, Shar WANTED Mystra to see Cyric coming, to divert all her attention to HIM. She needed someone who Mystra absolutley LOATHED above all else, to catch her off gaurd. Cyric was a dupe, and like a good dupe, he took full credit for the assassination. Shar has been manipulating EVERYONE (including Ao) for quite some time, and set these wheels in motion ages ago.
Who put the idea of stealing Mystra's Power into Karsus' head in the first place? Don't you think that was little drastic, when the Sarrukh, the Imaskari, the Sharn, and another Netherese Arcanist ALL found alternate solutions to the Phaerimm problem, hmmmm? Karsus was brilliant, and yet he made one of the stupidest mistakes in the universe! You don't think it was possible that Shar was manipulating events even back then?
And two thousand Years later (whats time to an immortal being?) she uses a fragment of Karsus to tap into the previously estanblished connection and supress Mystras power, and her ability to come back! For all we know, Shar could have even given the Dark Three the idea to go after Jergal! To be honest with you, if even 75% of this pans out, I will be MOST impressed with Shar, and gain a HUGE new respect for her.
Ohh. I like this stuff. Good times.
Additionally, as I have said in the past, isn't it odd that a god of tyranny - as Jergal was - would willingly give up his power to three mortal dopes that he could have erased from existence with a single word? On top of that, does it not seem odd that these three dopes set in motion the Time of Troubles and ended up biting the dust? Plus, on top of that Jergal seems to retain the ability to call back his divine power he imparted - at least in regard to the portfolios of the Dead and Death. (The powers Kelemvor currently holds.)
In my opinion Jergal and Shar have been in a secret alliance since the beginning, both of them working toward the same final goal. Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal - they were stooges that set in motion the Time of Troubles. Throughout the centuries there have been an endless string of pawns, one after another, setting things up for the eventual grand finale.
Was the Spellplague a failed attempt? Or was it just a prelude to something even greater in the future?
She has been PLANNING this for twenty years! Read the Roll of Black Years - she was BEHIND Cyric's ascension! She probably GAVE Bane & Co. the idea to steal the Tablets of Fate, setting the events of the ToT in motion (and WotC has admitted as much, saying the Spellplague really got its 'start' back during the ToT)!
In my scenario, Shar WANTED Mystra to see Cyric coming, to divert all her attention to HIM. She needed someone who Mystra absolutley LOATHED above all else, to catch her off gaurd. Cyric was a dupe, and like a good dupe, he took full credit for the assassination. Shar has been manipulating EVERYONE (including Ao) for quite some time, and set these wheels in motion ages ago.
Who put the idea of stealing Mystra's Power into Karsus' head in the first place? Don't you think that was little drastic, when the Sarrukh, the Imaskari, the Sharn, and another Netherese Arcanist ALL found alternate solutions to the Phaerimm problem, hmmmm? Karsus was brilliant, and yet he made one of the stupidest mistakes in the universe! You don't think it was possible that Shar was manipulating events even back then?
And two thousand Years later (whats time to an immortal being?) she uses a fragment of Karsus to tap into the previously estanblished connection and supress Mystras power, and her ability to come back! For all we know, Shar could have even given the Dark Three the idea to go after Jergal! To be honest with you, if even 75% of this pans out, I will be MOST impressed with Shar, and gain a HUGE new respect for her.
BTW, I can't even respect any entity who dreams of ending everything, if they were logical they should just kill themselves and leave the world for those who want to live it, that's why Shar in my Realms is only a Deity of Secrets, Rogues and Sneak Attacks (not the class feature, but the complete meaning of a surprise attack), and is not completely NE, but a little more into TN. That way she is much more attractive as a PC's Patron Deity. She has the Shadow Weave as a tool to "Sneak attack" Selüne by hitting at Mystra (that hasn't changed), but when the Year of Blue Fire comes, she'll loose that too (just like she lost the portfolio of Loose :D) and the Blue Fire will be Mystra's new simbol marked in Faerun's sky for a full month.
I'm fortunate to be the High Priest of Consistency, a god who restores what was destroyed by Retcon and allows his followers to see the original truth behind layers ot Retcon's work.
Shar in my Realms is only a Deity of Secrets, Rogues and Sneak Attacks ... and is not completely NE, but a little more into TN.
What happens when the High Priest of Consistency performs a retcon himself? It seems the Time Gate might be useful after all, lest the High Priest of Consistency is transformed into the High Priest of Hypocrisy! Quick jump through the gate!
Maybe he has been a being from Abeir this whole time? With certain parts of Abeir coming to Toril this may have been some bigger far reaching plan by something other than the gods.
That may be true, I didn't think of that. I just always assumed that Jergal decided to keep the form of whatever group first worshiped him (or whatever being he was before he became a deity). You may be right.
Thats a VERY interesting tidbit, there, and drops right into my concepts perfectly!
That whole scenario would go a long way in 'fixing' some of the inconsistencies, such as the apparent 'stupid' behaviours of certain deities at times.
Shar is one of the three primordial beings from the Realms (with Jergal, I believe, quickly following behind). If we tie-in the Draconic Myths from 2e's Draconimicon, then we place Shar as Asgorath, and perhaps even Tiamet as well! That would mean Jergal sprang into existance at the death of the first sun.
Shar has worked from the very beginning to plunge the world back into Darkness, so how can any of us 'mere mortals' coceive of the hundreds, perhaps thousands, of plans she has set in motion? She could have been behind the Cult of the Dragon forming (giving that Sammaster was a corrupted Chosen of Mystra, that seems very appropriate), and even behind the Elven theft of the Nether scrolls (further hampering the Nethrese attempts at finding a solution) and driving Karsus to his ultimate destiny.
Shar in this light seems to me much more believable then picturing her as some sort of 'cosmic screw-up' whos plan's always fail.
What happens when the High Priest of Consistency performs a retcon himself? It seems the Time Gate might be useful after all, lest the High Priest of Consistency is transformed into the High Priest of Hypocrisy! Quick jump through the gate!
I made the changes, FOR MY REALMS, before I started any campaign in Forgotten Realms, therefore every campaign will use the same Realmslore.
Meldread, where does it say thet Jergal and Shar were romantically involved?
Thats a VERY interesting tidbit, there, and drops right into my concepts perfectly!
Netheril: Empire of Magic, page 40:
"Jergal had a cordial relationship with Amaunator, valuing that ancient sun god's adherence to law and order and his dominion over the more general field of rulership, and he worked grudgingly with Tyche, as fate sometimes had a hand in the time of a mortal's death. He admired the ineffable evil and seductive Power and grace of Shar and had formally courted her on several occasions, though he was well aware of the many attempts she made to manipulate him."
During this time Jergal held the following portfolios: Death, the dead, order in death, funerals and tombs, undeath, the undead, wasting, old age, exhaustion, tyranny, dusk
Meanwhile, Shar held the following portfolios: Dark, night, hatred, loss, forgetfulness, sleep, nightmares, illusions, lies, trickery, unrevealed secrets, hiding places, betrayal, treachery, seduction, thieves, thievery, murder, winter
Her allies were Jergal, Kozah (who would later become Talos), Moander (who would later be killed by Finder), and Targus (who would later be defeated by Tempus). Here is a snippet from her entry on page 55:
"Shar was a schemer and manipulator. Her philosophies made Moander and Kozah easy compatriots for her schemes, and Targus was hopelessly smitten by her beauty and thus easily led to whatever action she wished him to take."
Out of all of her original allies, only Jergal is left alive in more-or-less his original form.
Also, take a very close look at Shar's portfolio’s and who seems to have picked up most of them. ;)
By the way, I've always had a conspiracy theory that Mask is really an aspect of Shar that managed to break free. No one knows Mask's true identity, and although he is generally thought of to be male, there is no proof of that (and the fact that Mask can take whatever form he chooses). It is my general belief that sometime after the fall of Netheril Shar's church fragmented. Due to Shar and her followers intense need for secrecy, some of her priests began to preach about "Mask" - who was at the time really Shar. Overtime, that group eventually splintered off from the main church entirely.
Why else did the designers/Authors leave the Kartse Stone in Shar's possession at the end of the novel series?
-Said events were written in 2000, long before 4e was conceptualized.
Who put the idea of stealing Mystra's Power into Karsus' head in the first place?
-Karsus did. The idea that Shar egged him on is a retcon written long after the original lore was published.
Jergal doesn't even look remotely like any humanoid I have ever seen on Toril.
Maybe he has been a being from Abeir this whole time?
-The lore depicting Jergal was written long before the retcon of 'Abeir' and 'Toril' as two seperate entities was conceptualized.
Can you defeat a prepared Archmage in his own tower?
When you CAN you usually get so wasted by the battle that you're usually dead before a cleric heals you.
It's the same thing with Mystra.
Except that raw divine power is greater and more powerful than using spells than even mortals have access to.
As if Shar was THAT good keeping secrets, plus Mystra wouldn't BE so naive to concentrate on Cyric and forget Shar. She's a goddess with more INT and WIS than any mortal, and mortals aren't either that stupid to overconcentrate in only one threat and forget the rest (you should now).
And her CHA is very low for a deity, which could mean that for all her smarts and wisdom she may not have the necessary force of personality to make her plans come into fruition , she's very new at the game after all and lacks experience and emotional control. WIS and INT are NOT the only mental ability scores...
And yes, Shar is THAT good keeping secrets, that's supposed to be her field of expertise, unless Mystra is the only one allowed to be good at her own game
.That's only a difference of level, it's the same difference from 1st lvl spells to 9th lvl spells. Whe I refer to spells cast by Mystra I don't refer only to traditional Wizard Magic but any kind of magical power she has.
Problem is that she casts spells just like any other mortal does. And I didn't understand what you meant with "that's only a difference of level..."
Alter Reality can allow her to do pretty much anything she wanted in her domain.
Alter Reality is not the same as spellcasting, it can duplicate the effects of spells but it is never based on Caster Level and the DC of duplicated effects is based on CHA (like almost every other SDA, they are based on CHA because it's the force of personality of the deity the one that reshapes the world). Cyric's CHA is the same as Mystra's so Cyric is as good at altering reality as Mystra is.
...(and the fact that Mask can take whatever form he chooses).
Stat-wise Shar has an even more advanced ability to shapechange (True Shapechange SDA), so you could add that as an additional connection between both.
This would be the reason why she has been teaching people to spread the use of magic, because so many brilliant ones will be destroyed.. so that the beauty of magic wont die out.. AND.. you may all remember a emphasis on using magic not to blast but to create, and to stick to spells and not items.
Those are the good rules that no doubt helps you to get thru those bad times SHE KNOWS WILL COME, wasnt it a collection of "fireball" -type spells that destroyed halruaa?
So go ahead, go back and warn. And she will tell you she knew of it, that things must happen as they must... and that you should become more devoted to those sacred rules ;)
And why not ease the process into new magic, by writing down the processes to reach it, books that will make that transition so much easier... lol
Mystryl was the Goddess of Time.
Maybe this is all MYSTRA'S plan, somehow.
Plans within plans.
I really like the idea of Mystra and Shar plotting, counter plotting, counter counter plotting, etc. endlessly.
-Here is how to prevent the Spellplague:
1) Have Elminster step through a Gate, to visit Ed Greenwood.
2) Have Ed Greenwood give Elminster a copy of A Grand History of the Realms.
3) As the current year on Faerûn is 1375 DR, Elminster knows, through AGHotR what is definitley going to happen over the course of the next ten years, including the death of Mystra.
4) In 1385 DR, when Cyric murders Mystra, have everyone be prepared for it to come.
Yes, that's the plan I agree with.
Yes, that's the plan I agree with.
-We should definitley go do that.
:P
LK - You do realize that ALL lore has to start someplace, and you could just as easily say everything after the old grey box is a retcon.
To me, a retcon is going back and changing something, like what they did with Elves and Eladrin, or the 3e Cosmology, but to put a new 'spin' on an old event is not a retcon at all, IMHO.
As long as you don't change anything that was written previously, you can tack on any number of plots, intrigues, and alterior motives to an NPCs actions in the past.
BTW, was it stated somewhere in canon that Shar was behind Karsus and the Mystryl affair? I thought I just made that up...
I'm fairly certain that idea was mine first... all the good ones are. ;)
:P
-Nope.
LK - You do realize that ALL lore has to start someplace, and you could just as easily say everything after the old grey box is a retcon.
To me, a retcon is going back and changing something, like what they did with Elves and Eladrin, or the 3e Cosmology, but to put a new 'spin' on an old event is not a retcon at all, IMHO.
-A retcon is when you go back and alter any elements of previous lore. Previously, Karsus developed the spell to use as a last resort, as a weapon against the Phaerimm. Shar had nothing to do with anything.
BTW, was it stated somewhere in canon that Shar was behind Karsus and the Mystryl affair? I thought I just made that up...
-Yes, that is from one of the Super Modules. The Anauroch one, probably. What other lore didn't that one upset?
Anyhow, Just because Karsus did what he did in canon doesn't mean ther couldn't have been other 'hidden' events going on in the background.
What was changed? I want you to find me the EXACT statement in canon that says Shar was NOT involved in any way with karsus bringing down mystra. The non-existance of a piece of lore is NOT proof of its opposite.
The need for proof lies with you, not with me. ;)
What was changed? I want you to find me the EXACT statement in canon that says Shar was NOT involved in any way with karsus bringing down mystra. The non-existance of a piece of lore is NOT proof of its opposite.
Yes, but it moves the Burden of Proof. There's no proof that Captain Kirk isn't a time traveller and shot Abraham Lincoln.
Just a quick 'heads up' - The Time Portal was not solely invented so people could 'bypass' the Spellplague.
It appeared HERE first. ;)
I thought I remembered it from somewhere, I used another of those Time Portals in my own CK article.
EDIT: Its not the same portal as I thought, just a different one located very close by.
Yes, but it moves the Burden of Proof. There's no proof that Captain Kirk isn't a time traveller and shot Abraham Lincoln.
But if the writers decide to write that in (a novel - the movies with Kirk are done), then it happened. Only if they ever printed that it Didn't happen that way, is it a retcon.
Besides, I don't think Kirk would hurt Lincoln - they became friends, remember? ;)
A retcon is only a retcon if it changes something that was already in print (like the Elves), not what people's perceptions of what was written before were.
I always thought Karsus was influnced by something, but in my game it was the Arcane (3e Mercane). I guess thats why it's so much easier for me to except that Shar was more of a badass then any of us gave her credit for. I never liked Shar, much, but at at least I respect her more now... and may even use her.
I guess thats why it's so much easier for me to except that Shar was more of a badass then any of us gave her credit for. I never liked Shar, much, but at at least I respect her more now... and may even use her.
That's how I've always seen and portrayed Shar. She's a deity who does big things, and unlike most other evil deities, doesn't feel the need to brag to the world about it. She normally works through surrogates (read: pawns) who take the fall for her, or that she uses and expends. Never being a mortal, she lacks a mortal mindset and thinks like an immortal being should: long term. Very long term. A plot from Shar could last a decade, or even centuries if necessary. Her patience know no limit.
Of course, I stay away from the crappy novels. So that may be why I have a positive view of her as one of the best villain deities in the Realm's. She is not the only one, though; Gargauth is another who is often overlooked.
There are so many great and colorful deities in the Realm's that just get no attention.
-Karsus' Avatar was created as a weapon against the Phaerimm, not as a way to steal Mystryl's power. The spell could have been used on any deity, but the circumstances of the conflict between the Netherese and the Phaerimm prompted him to cast it on Mystryl.
Okaaaaayyy......
I guess you rather him be a villain, then an innocent victim.
So you'd rather say that he was an idiot, then that he was tricked into following that particular path?
-An idiot? How so?
I guess you rather him be a villain, then an innocent victim.
-A villian? How so?
Anyway that is how I always thought the whole situation should go down. It seemed set up for that conclusion.
Why does the gate need to travel to the past?
Maybe its one-way, and only goes to the future.
But then maybe its not a time gate at all... maybe it just puts you in stasis and shunts you to a pocket dimension until your 'preset timer' goes off. ;)
And if you want to REALLY go back in time, use the gate on Lurath Island - it takes you back to the pre-sundered proto-continent!
Then you can warn the Dark Elves about those nasty Gold Ones.
What MT said. I think it just a excape goat so you can play your current pc in 4E.
1) If given warning Mystra could counter Cyric's and Shar's plans rather easy. By taking a any number of actions that makes such a attack useless to Shar or Cyric...
2) Actualy going back in time and killing Midnight would probably have prevented the spellplague. As Shar would loose her dupe and scapegoat because Cyric being the stalker that he is was only going after her because of his sick twisted mind. Heck with this timegate why haven't more people used it to go back then and chaqnge things? I mean during the ToT there wasn't anybody to tell them not to...
3) Overall I see this as a bad thing for the Realm's future. I dislike time travel immensly because of well the arguements spawned in this thread. But I now see this as a tool being used by the designers to change the old FR's lore so it can be used to fit with their creative's visions. I just see the Realms not lasting much past 4th edition.
Also as a sidenote not being able to change anything was just one way to handle time travel...(the sanest thing I personaly think) but there was others options to use.
But overall this timegate doesn't exist in my Realms...nor any other timegate.
-An idiot? How so?
I'm going to assume here that Karsus' IQ would be much higher then mine, and I KNOW I couldn't handle godly power. He let his ego over-power his common sense, thats all.
--A villian? How so?
Ummmm... he basically stole a god's power... a non-evil god at that... I'm pretty sure that would put him on the 'hit list' of every friggin' church on the planet!!!!
If I have a problem with Vermin, I don't go and try and steal Gond's power so I can "build a better mousetrap", I work it out for myself.
And there were options - like I said in my other post, the Sarrukh, The Imaskari, the Sharn, and Shenandra (another freakin' Netherese Arcanist!) ALL figured out alternatives to dealing with the Phaerimm.
So I ask you again, was Karsus stupid, or was he just duped?
...
IIRC, in Netheril: Empire of Magic it is stated that the past cannot be changed, one can only travel to the past to learn about it but it cannot be modified.
I'm going to assume here that Karsus' IQ would be much higher then mine, and I KNOW I couldn't handle godly power. He let his ego over-power his common sense, thats all.
-Right. And, this makes one an idiot...how? It makes one foolish, perhaps. Arrogant, certainly. An 'idiot'? Stupid? I don't see that.
Ummmm... he basically stole a god's power... a non-evil god at that... I'm pretty sure that would put him on the 'hit list' of every friggin' church on the planet!!!!
-Finder Wyvernspur killed a deity. Is he going to go on the 'hit list' for every single church across the continent? Lathander himself caused the Dawn Cataclysm, that killed Murdane, a non-evil deity. Is his church not common?
-Note that Karsus did not kill Mystryl. Mystryl sacrificed herself.
If I have a problem with Vermin, I don't go and try and steal Gond's power so I can "build a better mousetrap", I work it out for myself.
-You could, however. The option that you take is not indicative of your intelligence, or anything of that sort. It is dependent on your situation. Said vermin are destroying your house, driving a wedge between you and your wife, and causing your children to get sick. You are still going to sit by and design your own mouse trap when Gond has one? Even after your wife leaves you, and takes the children, because conditions are getting too dangerous?
And there were options - like I said in my other post, the Sarrukh, The Imaskari, the Sharn, and Shenandra (another freakin' Netherese Arcanist!) ALL figured out alternatives to dealing with the Phaerimm.
-And, those options were not taken, as the situation did not unfold in such a way that any of those ideas could be implemented. The United States invaded Afghanistan in November 2001. There were various ways this could have been done. One specific strategy was chosen, that resulted in certain things happening- most notably allowing Usama bin Laden to escape the caves of Tora Bora. Does this make the strategists moving the chess pieces 'stupid'?
So I ask you again, was Karsus stupid, or was he just duped?
-And I continue to ask how he was 'stupid'?
Finder Wyvernspur killed an evil god, and a god killing another god is a VERY poor example.
And saying that Mystyl 'suicided' is just splitting hairs.
He was responsible for her death through a completely reckless act. I never thought he was stupid, ergo he must have been 'out of his right mind' to make some of the bad decisions he did (the mis-handling of 'Heavy Magic' was another).
WotC has decided that he must have been influenced, and I and others have also had this opinion in the past, so obviously there must be some merit to it.
Recently we learned that Betsy Ross had absolutely NOTHING to do with making the American Flag. The story was MADE-UP by her Grandson nearly a century after the events of the Revolution. Now THATS a retcon, baby!
Saying that it was really Thomas Jeffersoon that asked her, rather then Washington, wouldn't have been a retcon - it would just have been a new take on old facts. (and I just made that part up, to illustrate the difference).
The history channel runs a show called Histories Mysteries, and they dispute 'known' historical lore all the time, and often come up with new scenarios as to the reasons behind certain events.
Are you saying that FR history is far more accurate then RW history, which gets rewritten all the time?
He wasn't, which is my whole point.
-You originally asked if he was an idiot or villian. And, he isn't either. Originally, he wasn't lead on, either.
And saying that Mystyl 'suicided' is just splitting hairs.
-And yet, that is what happened.
He was responsible for her death through a completely reckless act. I never thought he was stupid, ergo he must have been 'out of his right mind' to make some of the bad decision he did (the mis-handling of 'Heavy Magic' was another).
-Reckless in hindsight. Just like, perhaps, creating a nuclear bomb during World War II, and utilizing it was reckless. Do many people wish it had never been developed? Yes. At the time, was it's development the only way to stop the war? Yes. Ask a historian now if it was the only way to stop the war? Maybe.
WotC has decided that he must have been influenced, and I and others have also had this opinion in the past, so obviously there must be some merit to it.
-I never said there wasn't any merit to it. The original lore was not written with that in mind, however.
Recently we learned that Betsy Ross had absolutely NOTHING to do with making the American Flag. The story was MADE-UP by her Grandson nearly a century after the events of the Revolution. Now THATS a retcon, baby!
-Not exactly. A retcon goes back and literally changes an aspect of the past. In the real world, that's as close as a retcon that we can have. Changing the perception of something doesn't change the absolute truth of what happened, whereas a retcon does change that absolute truth. Know what I mean? In real life, a retcon would change perceptions of something. In a fantasy setting, retcons have the ability to go back in time and literally change the facts, something that cannot be done in the real world. Thus is the power of Retcon the Eraser...
Are you saying that FR history is far more accurate then RW history, which gets rewritten all the time?
-A good question. I am going to say that Forgotten Realms history is more accurate, because when we are given the canon, we know that's exactly how it unfolded. We don't have history, misperceptions, and so on to color our views. With the real world, we do. Everything the FRCS tells us is absolute fact (unless it says specifically it's not). The same can't be said about a history book, or whatever else.
IIRC, in Netheril: Empire of Magic it is stated that the past cannot be changed, one can only travel to the past to learn about it but it cannot be modified.
That's with the Time Conduit spell, the only way to explore any year under Mystryl, after that, if any method of Time Travel that isn't the Time Conduit is used then you aren't tied to Mystryl's rules about time travel.
-Karsus' Avatar was created as a weapon against the Phaerimm, not as a way to steal Mystryl's power. The spell could have been used on any deity, but the circumstances of the conflict between the Netherese and the Phaerimm prompted him to cast it on Mystryl.
Didn't he pick Mystrl out of ego?
And does this remind anyone else of the various time travel episodes of Dragonlance? Given that most of those novels sucked bad this doesn't bode well for the Realms.
Time travel, alternate realities, random invasions from who knows where... I can see a "Crisis of Infinite Planes" happening in 5e if they keep this up.
And does this remind anyone else of the various time travel episodes of Dragonlance? Given that most of those novels sucked bad this doesn't bode well for the Realms.
Actually, I think it's pretty widely considered the Legends Trilogy is the best of all of TSR's game novels.
My Bro-in-laws friends read a lot of Dragonlance, and I didn't like them, ergo....
They were the type of gamers that would al fight over who got to play the Drow Ranger...
I guess that 'colored' my decision, somewhat.
IIRC, in Netheril: Empire of Magic it is stated that the past cannot be changed, one can only travel to the past to learn about it but it cannot be modified.
1) In any game the DM is the final arbiter on what happens...
2) That was during that specfic age you couldn't change the past(Mystrl was keeping it from happening)...in other words that was then this is now.
3) During the ToT they was no one around to stop it.
Also technically...they have changed the past...the reintroduction of this Timegate nonsense is just so they can hand wave it.
They were the type of gamers that would al fight over who got to play the Drow Ranger...
I guess that 'colored' my decision, somewhat.
Yeah, overall, I always felt they were the most adult and well written fantasy of TSR's entire line. It dealt with alcoholism, spouse abuse, loss of religious faith, and had genuinely good characterization.
I always felt they were miles above the original Dragonlance books, which were up there as "Fantasy that works as fantasy rather than just gamer fantasy."
Actually, I think it's pretty widely considered the Legends Trilogy is the best of all of TSR's game novels.
By who? Though I admitt I hate time travel stories...especialy in a RPG setting but where do you get this info from?
Didn't he pick Mystrl out of ego?
-No, he chose Mystryl because Mystryl was the deity of magic, and the Phaerimm were magical creatures, Netheril was a magical society, etc.
Time travel, alternate realities, random invasions from who knows where... I can see a "Crisis of Infinite Planes" happening in 5e if they keep this up.
-I hope not. I really do.
By who? Though I admitt I hate time travel stories...especialy in a RPG setting but where do you get this info from?
I guess general consensus when you ask about the boards. They really *are* excellently written. Also, I have never seen anyone badmouth them, which happens a lot with other D&D fiction. Well, at least I haven´t seen anyone badmouth them who, y'know, bothered to *read* them before passing judgement. Of course it is easier to pontificate from a point of utter ignorance...
However, that has nothing to do with pre-existing Time Gates in FR. They've been there since at least 2E and I never saw a retcon of the one in . . . dang. . . those stupid mountains to the NW of Turmish, whatever the heck there name is.
As for people going back in time to change things. . . well. . . that's entirely up to WotC. Entirely. I imagine that they'll say "You can't change the past."
As for the whole Karsus thing, dang, leave that poor horse alone. Jesus, the thing's been beat up more than Ilmater!
I also dug the Legends Trilogy, but I haven't read it in a decade so I can't say what my current opinion would be.
And how is it that Mystra didn't just place her divine essence into several of her trusted followers?
It's all crap! 4ED changes make no sense at all.
And how is it that Mystra didn't just place her divine essence into several of her trusted followers?
-She did. That's what the Chosen of Mystra (and all Chosen, of all deities) are. Mortals in which a deity 'invested' in by placing a portion of their divinity in them.
-She did. That's what the Chosen of Mystra (and all Chosen, of all deities) are. Mortals in which a deity 'invested' in by placing a portion of their divinity in them.
Do we have any info on what happened with the Chosen? I mean, given the stories I've heard about I'm not sure I want to read anything but I guess I'm just masochistic like that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxQUC_jvR6Y
First, this will kill of the characters of lots of players. And that would not be fair. So the save is a TimeGate. Somewhere in the front of the 4E Realms book will be the paragraph-"Oh if you want to save your favorate characters, just say they went through a TimeGate and are now in the modern Realms''
Second, it kills the tons of characters made by authors and others have made over the years. Wizard folks say the 'love' the Realms, so they don't want to go to all the authors and say 'oh, your characters are dead'. Again, the TimeGate saves the day. 'Oh the Knights of Myth Drannor all walked through a TimeGate'.
Saddly, all the normal flok will be gone. Jannaxil, of Serpentil books in Waterdeep is just gone.
BT
Do we have any info on what happened with the Chosen?
No, not really. We know that there won't be any more Chosen of Mystra, though.
No, not really. We know that there won't be any more Chosen of Mystra, though.
In the Realms 4.0 you don't need the Chosen anymore. For the good adventurers Bob and Duncan shall put on their armor and sally forth to vanquish evil. Then they shall slay the heathen and take from them their loot, for it was very phat and did weigh them down. Then shall the people rejoice mightily at the deeds of Bob and Duncan. For they shall become gods after their own ways. Thus the people shall fall down and worship the Beast that didist speak such as this. So saith the wise Alaundo.
You cannot change time. Those who travel through it can't change history, because they didn't.
-Or, you do change history, but said changes spawn alternate realities, a la The Exiles.
We know that there won't be any more Chosen of Mystra, though.
-At least, the current Chosen of Mystra will no longer be Chosen by Mystra, anyway. It's hard to be a Chosen of a dead deity. Look at the stories of Ex-Chosen that got that way because their deities died that currently exist!
I think the TimeGate will be used to save lots of Characters. The 100 year jump will kill off most of the characters alive in the Relams now. Just about all the humans will gone, and a good chunk of the others will be too old to do much anymore.
First, this will kill of the characters of lots of players. And that would not be fair. So the save is a TimeGate. Somewhere in the front of the 4E Realms book will be the paragraph-"Oh if you want to save your favorate characters, just say they went through a TimeGate and are now in the modern Realms''
Second, it kills the tons of characters made by authors and others have made over the years. Wizard folks say the 'love' the Realms, so they don't want to go to all the authors and say 'oh, your characters are dead'. Again, the TimeGate saves the day. 'Oh the Knights of Myth Drannor all walked through a TimeGate'.
Saddly, all the normal flok will be gone. Jannaxil, of Serpentil books in Waterdeep is just gone.
BT
I guess the timegate was made to save PCs from current games then.
I guess the timegate was made to save PCs from current games then.
They'll have to write a conversion manual then.
I noticed something extremely odd in the Spellplague article. Please read the following:
Hm. So, what stops some cleric of Mystra ( or somebody else who can contact her ) from just, y'know, hopping back and warning her about Cyrics attack?
Methinks that somebody didn´t think this device through at *all*. Not that am much surprised, given the general state of affairs....
Nah check out the Cormanthyr and Netheril 2e stuff. The first few pages mentions the various chronomagics available to go back and play in that era versus just having "natives" of that era. There are, IIRC, a few pages on how much one can change the past as well. You know the whole "can you change the past" versus "should you change it if you can" type of stuff. The mod for Netheril actually had you gathering material components for Karsus' spell (to include the Terrasque's spleen). In the end, if you don't get the stuff, someone else does and Karsus still carries out his Folly.
-Here is how to prevent the Spellplague:
1) Have Elminster step through a Gate, to visit Ed Greenwood.
2) Have Ed Greenwood give Elminster a copy of A Grand History of the Realms.
3) As the current year on Faerûn is 1375 DR, Elminster knows, through AGHotR what is definitley going to happen over the course of the next ten years, including the death of Mystra.
4) In 1385 DR, when Cyric murders Mystra, have everyone be prepared for it to come.
Yeah, I'd definitely say you could mitigate the effects, but most likely not stop them.
Just curious,'cause if there was/is one... it is kind of scary that it is quite close to the Shadovar.
Wasnt there one such portal in the High Ice as well?
Just curious,'cause if there was/is one... it is kind of scary that it is quite close to the Shadovar.
Yep, there's one somewhere in the Great Glacier region. However, it is VERY difficult to find.
I’m pretty sure I saw someone comment as such during this thread, but I thought I’d jump in here and reiterate that this time gate was not invented for this article. It’s been around since 2nd-Edition and I simply included it as a convenient way to allow your PCs to avoid the worse effects of the Spellplague (should you wish to take advantage of it). Its location was very convenient as I was asked to limit the article to Cormyr and the Vilhon Wilds. There are several other time gates scattered throughout Faerûn of course.
I thought you came up with that one... what source is that from?
It just strikes me odd that there are TWO time portals in the Osraun Mountains.
Its a pretty sorry statement for a setting when you can come up with multiple instances of worshippers OUT-LIVING their deities!!!
-Eh.
Wasnt there one such portal in the High Ice as well?
-Yes. There's plenty of them, all over the place.
Just to reiterate, there are several listed HERE.
I thought you came up with that one... what source is that from?
It just strikes me odd that there are TWO time portals in the Osraun Mountains.
From Cormanthyr Empire of Elves page 6 on the right side.
I'm not sure that there is any particular lore that says these two portals (the one from Portals in Time and the one from Cormanthyr) are not the same. The lore for each of them differs a bit and it sounds like 4E will take the route of them being different but I don't know of any pre-4E lore that states they are two different portals.
Location, Location, LOCATION. ;)
They are still some miles apart from each other. If you take the 2w Vilhon Reach sourcebook map of Turmish for the location of Mt. Andrus, and the map that came with the Perilous Gateways article, we can see visually that they are in different parts of the mountains.
I will, for my game, count them as one and the same (for neatness). You can just say the tunnels leading to them are REALLY long, or just shift the one from the PP article toward the Volcano (which is what I intend). Since the Volcano was left off the 3e maps, one can speculate that the second map was the 'new' location for the volcano, but I'd rather split the difference myself and have it fall out somewhere in the middle.
Lore Fix -
The Portal used by the Imperial Society for Historical Study IS the same portal. The map location is in corrrrect - the text merely indicates it is SW of Ironfang Keep - precisely the direction Mt. Andlath is from the keep. The society obviously fabricated the story of the gate's creation, in order to 'legitimize' their claim over it.
Unfortunely, the text in Cormathyr (thanks for that ;)) says it is protected by Mystryl (and later Mytsra's) magic from the enormous heat of the volcano - which puts a big, fat hole in the assumption that it can be used post-Spellplague.
Second suggestion: The caves leading to the timegate travelled through immensely hot, un-survivable regions that required magic to mitigate the effects. However, the Historical Society has built their monastery a few miles away, and created their own set of tunnels leading to the gate, which is in a much less heated cavern then the rest. They of course did this to further their desires to claim it as their own. The fact that the original caves are no longer traversible has made the ISfHS VERY happy, indeed.
Does that work for everyone?
-Yes. There's plenty of them, all over the place.
I know, that more of them exist. I was just wondering about that especific location, but thanks.
Three Reasons...
Location, Location, LOCATION. ;)
And ginecologist! :D
Unfortunely, the text in Cormathyr (thanks for that ;)) says it is protected by Mystryl (and later Mytsra's) magic from the enormous heat of the volcano - which puts a big, fat hole in Brian's assumption that it can be used post-Spellplague.
Let's just say that this time gate and others are now under the protection of another diety with the portfolio of time. :evillaugh
Who?
Has Amaunator moved to aquire time as part of his portfolio, since he has in the past disputed it with Mystryl?
I guess that would make sense.
O hhhh now I am curious
I just wanted to figure out a way for the gods NOT to be inolved this once, hence my homebrew lore.
Add to my above assumptions:
Since 1385 DR, a mysterious figure has taken over the leadership of the Imperial Society for Historical Study. No one knows for sure who he is, but he has been accepted by the historian-monks as their leader. He always where's a hood, but the few who have caught a glimpse under the hood have made out terrible scarring on his face. Anyhow, he has opened up the portal to those wishing to 'skip ahead' to after the Spellplague, at the price of 10,000 GP a head! However, he has waved the 'entrance fee' in special circumstances, and has even refused to allow certain personages to pass through at any price!
Three Reasons...
Location, Location, LOCATION. ;)Show
They are still some miles apart from each other. If you take the 2w Vilhon Reach sourcebook map of Turmish for the location of Mt. Andrus, and the map that came with the Perilous Gateways article, we can see visually that they are in different parts of the mountains.
I will, for my game, count them as one and the same (for neatness). You can just say the tunnels leading to them are REALLY long, or just shift the one from the PP article toward the Volcano (which is what I intend). Since the Volcano was left off the 3e maps, one can speculate that the second map was the 'new' location for the volcano, but I'd rather split the difference myself and have it fall out somewhere in the middle.
Lore Fix -
The Portal used by the Imperial Society for Historical Study IS the same portal. The map location is in corrrrect - the text merely indicates it is SW of Ironfang Keep - precisely the direction Mt. Andlath is from the keep. The society obviously fabricated the story of the gate's creation, in order to 'legitimize' their claim over it.
Unfortunely, the text in Cormathyr (thanks for that ;)) says it is protected by Mystryl (and later Mytsra's) magic from the enormous heat of the volcano - which puts a big, fat hole in Brian's assumption that it can be used post-Spellplague.
Second suggestion: The caves leading to the timegate travelled through immensely hot, un-survivable regions that required magic to mitigate the effects. However, the Historical Society has built their monastery a few miles away, and created their own set of tunnels leading to the gate, which is in a much less heated cavern then the rest. They of course did this to further their desires to claim it as their own. The fact that the original caves are no longer traversible has made the ISfHS VERY happy, indeed.
And yes, 2e used the excellent lore-mechanic of "inaccurate reporting", which gave us far more leeway then 3e ever did.
I don't think Labelas Enoreth will exist in 4th edition.
I'm thinking Chronepsis - the god with the COOLEST name ever, IMHO. :D
I'm thinking Chronepsis - the god with the COOLEST name ever, IMHO. :D
-Nah, the coolest name is Blibdoolpoolp.
You missed my point COMPLETELY - the time portal, in that instance, was the SET-UP!!!
Oh yeah! The PC's learn of what caused the Spellplague. They then research time travel and learn of the gate (there are a few others, one in the Spine of the World IIRC). They find it and learn how it works go there and activate it. They go back in time and figure out how to warn Mystra. She prepares for Cyric's arrival, even going so far as to possibly thinking of doing a preemptive strike. Cyric and Shar retaliate as at the time they weren't even thinking of jumping Mystra. Oops, things get set in motion and while Mystra was looking in one direction, Shar and Cyric strike from a whole new direction having to come up with a new plan. Only this time, because Mystra planned to overpower her attackers her chosen, and servitors were gathered around her. None survived and the effects were worse because they weren't mitigated.
See, ain't time travel fun?
Its location was very convenient as I was asked to limit the article to Cormyr and the Vilhon Wilds.
The Vilhon Wilds?
Times they are a'changin', for sure.
-Nah, the coolest name is Blibdoolpoolp.
Agreed.
Chronepsis rolls off the tongue, but it sounds like an undesirable medical condition.-Nah, the coolest name is Blibdoolpoolp.
If you wanted a god that sounds like the noise you make during a 'bodily function', then yeah, I suppose its cool.
Seriously, you guys like that god? She's never been worshipped on any world I ran - A lobster with a hot, human body?
Thats just... Eeeewwwwww....
If you did indeed change the past, you couldn't. Why? If you went back in time and killed your grand father before he met your grand mother that would mean that you were never born. Because you were never born you couldn't go back in time to kill your grand father, so you are infact born after all because you didn't change anything.
Some theories of time travel (I'm doing a course on it at university this semester) postulate that it is indeed possible to change the future by killing your grandfather. However, you would not immediately cease to exist, because while the timeline as been altered, you will remain as a "remnant" of the previous timeline. This is, I believe, what the current Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles TV series is using.
Another option is to look at the Futurama way of doing it - the timeline fixed itself, and Fry was his own grandfather - he altered history, but didn't cease to exist. Or maybe he was always his own grandfather. Hard to say. ;)
Or there's the spawning of an alternate timeline in which your grandfather died, but it wouldn't affect your timeline.
The Novikov Self-Consistency Principle is also mentioned towards the start of this thread - research that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-peJUy79KE
Agreed.
-Yeah, you know, it does.
If you wanted a god that sounds like the noise you make during a 'bodily function', then yeah, I suppose its cool.
-The Kuo-Toa deity is supposed to sound like bubbles. I think 'Bloobdoolpoolp' sounds like bubbling water.
Seriously, you guys like that god?
-Like? No, not necessarily. Do I find she has the best name? Yes.
(I'm doing a course on it at university this semester)
-You are taking a course on time travel? That's just plain ol' cool.
I personally think Bhaal has one of the coolest names. It automatically makes me think of some evil pagan god who's altars need to be destroyed!
That is because he was a evil(well acoording to the Christians) pagen god(though I think it was spelled Ba'al) but pretty much pronouced the same way.
-Well, Bhaal (Ba'al) was/is a 'pagan' deity, so there you go. All it (Ba'al) means is 'Lord'/'Master'.
You beat me to it...Curse you Karsus....;)
You beat me to it...Curse you Karsus....;)
-At your service.
-Well, Bhaal (Ba'al) was/is a 'pagan' deity, so there you go. All it (Ba'al) means is 'Lord'/'Master'.
Baal was a loser anyway.
Baal was a loser anyway.
-The actual Ba'al, or the Faerûnian Bhaal?
He was the oldest, and toughest of the three Demon Brothers.
I prefer Diablo's Bhaal, myself. :D
He was the oldest, and toughest of the three Demon Brothers.
He was the youngest actually. Mephisto was the oldest.
2. Talking about the Baal of the real world. Elijah proved that.
2. Talking about the Baal of the real world. Elijah proved that.
-Ba'al, not Baal.
Also, if Mephisto was the oldest (I'm starting to remember some of the fluff now), why was he the easiest to kill?
I remember 'Mephisto Runs' were one of my favorite pastimes.
Now I'm in the mood to play it again....
Also, if Mephisto was the oldest (I'm starting to remember some of the fluff now), why was he the easiest to kill?
-Because he was responsible for One More Day. He deserves to die.
Also, if Mephisto was the oldest (I'm starting to remember some of the fluff now), why was he the easiest to kill?
Because he possessed a mortal that was weaker than Tal Rasha (Baal) and the hero from Diablo I (Diablo)
If you wanted a god that sounds like the noise you make during a 'bodily function', then yeah, I suppose its cool.
It's funny.
Mephisto's Soulstone was placed inside Sankekur the High Priest of Zakarum, shards of that soulstone were placed in the other Councile Members as well. This was all done in secret years after the Horadrim imprisoned Mephisto in the Soulstone.
Baal's Soulstone was placed inside of the Horadrim mage Tal'Rasha when he was bound inside the tomb so that he would contain the demon Baal. The Soulstone was fractured so it couldn't hold the spirit of the demon normally, thus Tal'Rasha acted as a vessel to contain it.
Diablo's soulstone was placed deep within Catacombs that years later would be the foundation of a Monastery. Years later the Archbishop Lazarus awoke after a feavered dream and went down deep into the catabombs. He shattered the Soulstone in a fit of madness which allowed Diablo to begin to make his move. The mad Archbishop kidnapped the son of King Leoric and used the boy as Diablo's vessel. Several adventurers came to the town of Tristram and eventually ended Diablo's reign of terror there. The warrior figure (who is not named) eventually killed Diablo. He believed that the only way to contain the demon's evil spirit was to jab the stone into his own four head and contain it within himself. He is later corrupted by Diablo and used as a new vessel.
So their powers were not fully complete yet and they were more or less mutating their host's bodies into the more demonic forms you see in game.
Well, then I want a refund from Blizzard - why is it that Baal got his own expansion for the game, and you had to defeat him LATER when you were MUCH tougher?!
He possessed the body of Tal Rasha, who was more or less the pre-eminent Horadrim mage. The stronger the host, the more the Prime Evil's power will multiply, IIRC.
-Because he was responsible for One More Day. He deserves to die.
Oh, I see what you did there. I hated that story-arc too.
Diablo's soulstone was placed deep within Catacombs that years later would be the foundation of a Monastery. Years later the Archbishop Lazarus awoke after a feavered dream and went down deep into the catabombs. He shattered the Soulstone in a fit of madness which allowed Diablo to begin to make his move. The mad Archbishop kidnapped the son of King Leoric and used the boy as Diablo's vessel. Several adventurers came to the town of Tristram and eventually ended Diablo's reign of terror there. The warrior figure (who is not named) eventually killed Diablo. He believed that the only way to contain the demon's evil spirit was to jab the stone into his own four head and contain it within himself. He is later corrupted by Diablo and used as a new vessel.
-Oh, ****! That's Diablo! I know all those names!
Oh, I see what you did there. I hated that story-arc too.
-Did anyone like that storyline? No.
-Ba'al, not Baal.
In english it's common to spell it "Baal".
In english it's common to spell it "Baal".
-No, it's not. Ba'al is a specific word, meaning 'Lord/Master', as I already said. It's spelled as such, when talking about that specific entity, a proper noun.
Also another interesting side note Ba'al is also one of the many names for the Christain devil. They did this alot turning other peoples gods into the Devil was one of the ways they converted people. This is why Satan has soo many names for the most part.
-Yes, I had a very long argument about this in the Rec-Room, with someone. The Ba'al mentioned in the Old Testament, in Egypt, I believe, is not the Devil, however, as this person refused to accept. The Ba'al mentioned was Ba'al, as in the Mesopotamian/Egyptian deity Ba'al, not the Devil.
-Yes, I had a very long argument about this in the Rec-Room, with someone. The Ba'al mentioned in the Old Testament, in Egypt, I believe, is not the Devil, however, as this person refused to accept. The Ba'al mentioned was Ba'al, as in the Mesopotamian/Egyptian deity Ba'al, not the Devil.
I tend to aviod arguements like that...but I think( and I admitt I am far from being a expert in this) to a Christian it is the same...
I tend to aviod arguements like that...but I think( and I admitt I am far from being a expert in this) to a Christian it is the same...
-Well, there you go. They're not.
-Well, there you go. They're not.
Actualy the reason why I don't like to get into these arguements is because it is a matter of believe and faith and not logic or reason.
Do remember what I said the Christians did proclaim serveral of the old pagen gods were really the devil in disguise...who is really to say if these being exist that the devil wouldn't do this? If they didn't exist...then why have a long arguement about it? I mean if you are a Christian believing that the devil is behind other relgions mystical powers(rather real or not is a moot point here because we are talking about faith and believe here) is almost required since no other gods exists.
So they is no way to win that arguement because it isn't something that can be argued...
Although I don't personally believe that every other powerful entity from older religions is neccessarily 'evil', I do believe in their existance and they have their own place within the universe.
You want a good take on "The Devil"? Read The War Hound and the World's Pain by Michael Moorcock.
He's one of the few that portrays him correctly - as an incredibly beautiful being. Anyone who knows their Bible/Old Testament knows that Lucifer was one of God's most breathtaking creations (Hence, his pride, which "goeth before a fall"). ;)
And if you read the Riverworld series, you'd know that only the Sufis have it right. :D
Do remember what I said the Christians did proclaim serveral of the old pagen gods were really the devil in disguise...who is really to say if these being exist that the devil wouldn't do this?
-Of course, all of this predates Christianity, and to postscript things would be a little silly...
-Of course, all of this predates Christianity, and to postscript things would be a little silly...
That is if the Old Testment or any religous text is accurate...I mean I might be wrong here but isn't the devil portrtayed more as a servant of God who tests peoples faith and not really that bad of a guy? It has been awhile since I have study relgion so I might be wrong here.
I mean I like relgious debates with people who have a sense of humor...it can be fun but I tend aviod all serious ones and never discuss my own religous believes.
That is if the Old Testment or any religous text is accurate...I mean I might be wrong here but isn't the devil portrtayed more as a servant of God who tests peoples faith and not really that bad of a guy? It has been awhile since I have study relgion so I might be wrong here.
I mean I like relgious debates with people who have a sense of humor...it can be fun but I tend aviod all serious ones and never discuss my own religous believes.
-No, what I meant is that, to use other, more relevant terms, that'd be a retcon, to go back into the writings of another religion that you borrow from, and change things. At the risk of getting yelled at, the entire religion is a retcon, to a degree. The core, fundamental tenet of Christianity- a 'messiah'- is a retcon.
-Because he was responsible for One More Day. He deserves to die.
Snicker
That is if the Old Testment or any religous text is accurate...I mean I might be wrong here but isn't the devil portrtayed more as a servant of God who tests peoples faith and not really that bad of a guy? It has been awhile since I have study relgion so I might be wrong here.
No. He was definitely a rebel cast out of heaven with IIRC one third of the host of Heaven who joined him in his rebellion. He was depicted as carrying out God's will in such cases as testing Job. As for the ineffableness of God (who according to Pratchet and Gaiman, God and His Plan are definitely ineffable even to Angles and Demons), who knows? The Devil could just be middle management who was offered a position and took it and now he's carrying out company policy.
I mean I like relgious debates with people who have a sense of humor...it can be fun but I tend aviod all serious ones and never discuss my own religous believes.
Yeah, usually best. It means we don't have to burn you at the stake for being a heretic or a heathen. Then we can all get along! :D :P
-No, what I meant is that, to use other, more relevant terms, that'd be a retcon, to go back into the writings of another religion that you borrow from, and change things. At the risk of getting yelled at, the entire religion is a retcon, to a degree. The core, fundamental tenet of Christianity- a 'messiah'- is a retcon.
No, not really. All of the prophecies denoting the messiah was coming were in the old testment. There are those who hold that Mary was very aware of these prophecies and did her best to ensure her firstborn met those criteria that she could directly affect (like time and place of birth).
The Jews were (and are) looking for a Messiah. They just don't see Jesus son of Joseph of the House of David born in Bethlehem as that Messiah.
Hm. So, what stops some cleric of Mystra ( or somebody else who can contact her ) from just, y'know, hopping back and warning her about Cyrics attack?
Methinks that somebody didn´t think this device through at *all*. Not that am much surprised, given the general state of affairs....
Endless risk of paradox. Better option is go back in time, work with Mystra to set up hidden methods to bring her back into existence shortly after the date you left your own time. Since it's not known whether you ever went back in time the first time through, there is less risk of paradox. Have to be real careful on timing though and be really subtle. Otherwise you risk removing the motivation that sent you back in time and you're screwed.
Simpler option is to ignore paradox or create magics that let you bypass it but there are numerous DMs that might laugh at you for it.
No. He was definitely a rebel cast out of heaven with IIRC one third of the host of Heaven who joined him in his rebellion.
The problem here is that we need to know which Devil you are referring to?
Lucifer, or Satan?
Lucifer was assigned the task of tempting man, whereas Satan lead his troops against god. Most people assume they are one and the same, but scholars still debate that.
I like the take in Little Nicky, where Lucifer is Satan's father. Strange, finding religous inspiration in an Adam Sandler movie. :D
No, not really. All of the prophecies denoting the messiah was coming were in the old testment. There are those who hold that Mary was very aware of these prophecies and did her best to ensure her firstborn met those criteria that she could directly affect (like time and place of birth).
The Jews were (and are) looking for a Messiah. They just don't see Jesus son of Joseph of the House of David born in Bethlehem as that Messiah.
-Way to go for explaining to me what my own religion.
-In the Jewish prophecies, there is no such thing as a 'messiah'. There is a 'moshiach', an 'annointed one', who is to lead the kingdoms of Israel, and by proxy, the world, into a "glorious age" where the wrongs done to various peoples, and the world were to be righted, and all that good stuff. There is no concept of a 'messiah', however. That, as I said, is a retcon.
The problem here is that we need to know which Devil you are referring to?
Lucifer, or Satan?
Lucifer was assigned the task of tempting man, whereas Satan lead his troops against god. Most people assume they are one and the same, but scholars still debate that.
I like the take in Little Nicky, where Lucifer is Satan's father. Strange, finding religous inspiration in an Adam Sandler movie. :D
I think the consesus is that Lucifer was his name or his title prior to his rebellion, and Satan became his name after ward. The word Lucifer is latin for "light bearer" (from the lux or lucis "light" and ferre "to bear, bring" The original hebrew form of this word was Helel, meaning "bright one". According to the scriptures in Isaiah, the Lord gives a prophecy through the Prophet Ezekiel concerning the King of Tyr. In true Biblical fashion he does this through a double meaning. The being described in Isaiah is seen to mean a certain heavenly being who being the Anointed Covering Cherub of God eventually sought to exalt himself above his maker. Indeed, Lucifer's sin was that he said "I shall" five times.
"I will ascend into heaven"
"I will exalt my throne above the stars of God"
"I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north"
"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds"
"I will be like the most High"
Such as it was that he decieved himself by reason of his own brightness. The narrative then goes into Revelation where we glimpse into the War of Heaven. Where the Dragon (or the Serpent, which is identified with Satan) is fighting with the Archangel Michael and their respective armies until he is cast down. It then goes on to say that the Dragon drew a third of the stars of heaven down with him. Stars in the Biblical sense is often ment to represent the heavenly host. So it's been the age old belief that a third of the host fell with Lucifer.
The nail in the coffin to the belief that Satan is/was Lucifer for Christians is that Christ in the Gospels states plainly that "I beheld Satan fall as lightning from heaven." Which clearly implies that the being was once with God yet fell from grace. If you compare this with the prophecy found in Isaiah you will understand why this connection is made.
Satan's role in the story of Job to me only reinforces this view. It's not a simple case of right and wrong. Most people don't realize it but the whole point of Job wasn't that God had to put Job to a test because he had doubts in him. It was to prove Satan that he was wrong about Job.
Sorry about the side tracking. Angeology is one of my favorite areas of study.
-Way to go for explaining to me what my own religion.
-In the Jewish prophecies, there is no such thing as a 'messiah'. There is a 'moshiach', an 'annointed one', who is to lead the kingdoms of Israel, and by proxy, the world, into a "glorious age" where the wrongs done to various peoples, and the world were to be righted, and all that good stuff. There is no concept of a 'messiah', however. That, as I said, is a retcon.
That is what the Messiah is supposed to do as well Lord Karsus. What retcon do you speak of?
That is what the Messiah is supposed to do as well Lord Karsus. What retcon do you speak of?
-Messiah =/= Moshiach. Is/was Jesus a mortal king, who is decended from David via his father's ancestry, who reestablished the Sanhendrin, rebuilt the Temple, and succeeded in a variety of other prerequisites?
-Messiah =/= Moshiach. Is/was Jesus a mortal king, who is decended from David via his father's ancestry, who reestablished the Sanhendrin, rebuilt the Temple, and succeeded in a variety of other prerequisites?
That would all depend on how you interpret said prophecies. I would say in my own personal judgement that he did indeed fulfill alot of what was said, with some of it yet to come if you believe in what the New Testament says.
Oh, and there was actually a bit of historical evidence discovered a few years back concerning the trial of Jesus amongst the Sanhedrin. It was written that they associated him with the house of David.
That would all depend on how you interpret said prophecies. I would say in my own personal judgement that he did indeed fulfill alot of what was said, with some of it yet to come if you believe in what the New Testament says.
Oh, and there was actually a bit of historical evidence discovered a few years back concerning the trial of Jesus amongst the Sanhedrin. It was written that they associated him with the house of David.
-That would refute the concept that Jesus has no father, and that he is of the divine. No matter how you look at it, he cannot meet this criteria without compirmising a substantial and core tenet of Christianity- that Jesus was of the divine (a notion not found in the Jewish prophecies, mind you).
-That would refute the concept that Jesus has no father, and that he is of the divine. No matter how you look at it, he cannot meet this criteria without compirmising a substantial and core tenet of Christianity- that Jesus was of the divine (a notion not found in the Jewish prophecies, mind you).
Actually, Jesus is both God and Man in Christianity. He isn't just Divine. But no I wasn't saying that his biological Father was Joseph. But he can still meet the criteria. Here's how.
Mary, his biological mother was a direct descendant of King David through his son Nathan's line. So he is related to King David biologically by Mary and legally by his adoption by Joseph who is the direct descendant of King David by his son Solomon.
Mary, his biological mother was a direct descendant of King David through his son Nathan's line. So he is related to King David biologically by Mary and legally by his adoption by Joseph who is the direct descendant of King David by his son Solomon.
-The prerequisite is that the Moshiach is of the Line of David through his father's blood. His father, not his stepfather. If you go by the logic that G-d is Jesus' father, G-d is not of the Line of David. G-d is G-d.
-The prerequisites are that the Moshiach is of the Line of David through his father's ancestry.
Says who?
Says who?
-Says the Tanakh.
-Says the Tanakh.
Would you mind giving me the verse and text?
"Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah."
As such it would have been the line of David's son Nathan who would have been the rightful line through which another king could come.
The discussion of real-world religion is really very erudite, but we're treading on dangerous ground. Please shift the discussion back to the Realms.
Okay, everyone.
The discussion of real-world religion is really very erudite, but we're treading on dangerous ground. Please shift the discussion back to the Realms.
-We make sure to keep our off-topicness quite erudite. Rabble-rousers need not apply.
-No, what I meant is that, to use other, more relevant terms, that'd be a retcon, to go back into the writings of another religion that you borrow from, and change things. At the risk of getting yelled at, the entire religion is a retcon, to a degree. The core, fundamental tenet of Christianity- a 'messiah'- is a retcon.
You do realize that almost every modern religious tradition is a retcon of a previous religious tradition? Various sects grow out of an established religion, form into small 'cults', undergoing various alterations with time, becoming a dominate religion, which then form into sects and cults of their own, etc.
For example, when Christianity first came into practice there were many different sects - smallish cults of believers. Eventually there was only one main dominate cult which eventually formed most of the basis of modern day Christianity. As time passed, even that religion fractured into many different sub-sects or 'cults'. Mormonism is a prime modern example.
New religions spring up and old ones die off all the time. I've yet to discover a religion that was truly 'pure' that could not in some way connect itself to another religion that came before it.
Religion is a funny thing. It likes to change and adapt with the times and people, although a lot of folks are very invested in keeping things the same. It changes with the culture. I am very interested in seeing the long term effects of globalization on religion. It's still to early to really find out - it might take a few generations - but hopefully I'll still be alive (although probably very old :P) to see the effects.
I often try and apply this thinking to FR. For example, I like to imagine Mask as being an aspect of Shar that broke off from her after the fall of Netheril. In effect, it began with a smallish cult who hid the identity of their deity calling it 'Mask' and wearing masks to imitate that deity. Shar had most of Mask's portfolio’s during the time of Netheril. The cult over time became more focused on the thieving aspects of Shar / Mask. Over time the name Shar became completely forgotten to the worshipers, and that is when Mask 'broke free' of Shar to become an independent deity.
Religion is a funny thing. It likes to change and adapt with the times and people, although a lot of folks are very invested in keeping things the same. It changes with the culture. I am very interested in seeing the long term effects of globalization on religion. It's still to early to really find out .
you have ''the New age'', it's becoming more and more popular through its numerous aspects
That's why I still preffer Hermeticism. Retcon never got into them.
oh really, there are many different sects, versions and interpretations of it
a 'messiah'- is a retcon.
the Egyptian version is probably the oldest, so both Judaism and Christianity, anointing was done with the crocodile's (Sebek's, FR relevant) oil, ''messeh''
oh really, there are many different sects, versions and interpretations of it
Sure, that always happens, but you only need the Corpus Hermeticum and the Emerald Tablet and you have the original version.
You do realize that almost every modern religious tradition is a retcon of a previous religious tradition? Various sects grow out of an established religion, form into small 'cults', undergoing various alterations with time, becoming a dominate religion, which then form into sects and cults of their own, etc.
-Many religions 'borrow' from other religions. Judiasm 'borrows', in many of it's stories, very much from Zoroastrianism. The story of Noah's Arc is very similar to a Babylonian story about the periodic flooding of the Tigris and the Euphrates. Borrowing is different from 'retcons'. A retcon is where you take something, claim it as being the original, and then change it. Nowhere in the story of Noah's Arc does it say that the story was a Babylonian story.
-See the difference?
Time is a strange mistress. She changes everything. You'd be surprised how a simple concept can be altered over the course of hundreds and then thousands of years. You have retcons of retcons which are borrowed and then retconned again, then serve as inspiration for something else, which itself is then borrowed and retconned. Some people don't like that, but I actually find it refreshing.
To try and keep things on topic the Realm's have similar characteristics. The gods lose and gain portfolios, and even change in personality over time to reflect the changing beliefs of their followers. Some gods even 'die' because of lack of worship. It is a rather watered down process of what happens in the real world.
Now thats a retcon, baby. :P
Basically just 'erased' the existing cultures and lands and replaced them with something new.
_______________________________________________________________________________
I don't think the ret-conning was/is the problem; it is the poor way in which we were handed the debacle.
A few lines in the back of a book to 'introduce us' to something as important as the death of Mystra and the collapse of the Weave was just plain irreverant!
I never cared for Mystra, and I never 'got' the Weave, but that doesn't matter! As much as I don't mind seeing them go, they were of an un-paralleled IMPORTANCE to the setting!
To just 'dismiss' them in that way shows a complete lack of understanding of the setting, and acted like a slap-in-the-face to the fanbase.
You want to change something? Fine... explain it to me.
Don't smash me over the head with a brick.
That is only partially the case Lord Karsus! That's how it starts out, but not how it inevitably ends up.
Time is a strange mistress. She changes everything. You'd be surprised how a simple concept can be altered over the course of hundreds and then thousands of years. You have retcons of retcons which are borrowed and then retconned again, then serve as inspiration for something else, which itself is then borrowed and retconned. Some people don't like that, but I actually find it refreshing.
To try and keep things on topic the Realm's have similar characteristics. The gods lose and gain portfolios, and even change in personality over time to reflect the changing beliefs of their followers. Some gods even 'die' because of lack of worship. It is a rather watered down process of what happens in the real world.
Wow to call the natural growth of history a 'retconned' shows you poor knowledge of history. I don't mean to be insulting here, but it annoys me when people actual try to say what is happening in the Realms is even close to what happens with history.
I mean history is actual really repeatable is the sad fact of life. Sure people can put a spin on it for awhile but the truth is that really doesn't last long especialy with recent history and becoming less possible with not so recent history.
What we have here is people complete acting out of character for them and very much contrived circunstance (I like to call it author fiat) to change the Realms so the designers can tell their 'stories'...this just doesn't happen in real life.
But sorry what happened in the Realms is about as believeable as a soap opera durig sweep weeks.
I wasn't saying that the real world reflects what happens in the Realms, but rather the Realms drew inspiration from the real world when creating the development and alterations of the gods throughout history. Obviously, though the Realm's takes a simplistic view of things and it is much more complex in the real world.
We can't go back into the debate on religion because of the WizO, so I'll just say if you want an example of a real world religion "borrowing" and "retconning" from other religions/cultures look to the Bahá'í Faith and Mormonism. Then realize that they aren't unique and it has happened hundreds (perhaps even thousands) of times throughout history, and most changes that take place are subtle cultural shifts and differences that build up with time.
EDIT: Okay Markus, I see the example I mentioned was yours. Please don't think I'm singling you out. I don't see different takes on religious stories as "retcons" either, just variations. I think if a story is used by many cultures, that means it must contain some truth or idea that appeals to many people.
Real world history can definitely be ugly at times, but just because a particular event is not palatable (I think someone mentioned aboriginal peoples being pushed out by colonists--and that didn't only happen in the Americas) doesn't mean it can be referred to derisively as a "retcon." What happened, happened--nothing can be done to change the past.
-That'd be a retcon if it was claimed that the Indians didn't live in the Americas to begin with, and that the European colonists always did.
-That'd be a retcon if it was claimed that the Indians didn't live in the Americas to begin with, and that the European colonists always did.
Right, and that hasn't happened.
And even if it did, that would just mean the claim was false, because we can't change what the truth is in the real world, we can only do that in a fictional setting (and even in that case, it's very dodgy).That's my take on it, anyway.
I wasn't referring to the recent events surrounding 4E. I was referring to the last 20 or odd years Ed and others have put into developing the history of the Realms.
I wasn't saying that the real world reflects what happens in the Realms, but rather the Realms drew inspiration from the real world when creating the development and alterations of the gods throughout history. Obviously, though the Realm's takes a simplistic view of things and it is much more complex in the real world.
We can't go back into the debate on religion because of the WizO, so I'll just say if you want an example of a real world religion "borrowing" and "retconning" from other religions/cultures look to the Bahá'í Faith and Mormonism. Then realize that they aren't unique and it has happened hundreds (perhaps even thousands) of times throughout history, and most changes that take place are subtle cultural shifts and differences that build up with time.
I disagree you can't treat the FR religion like real world religions as the main difference is that the gods take a very direct hand in guiding their followers. Even simplfied it is not well thought out or realistic. What you claim happens alot (though in truth it isn't as cxommon as you think especialy for panthiestic cultures) can be stopped by the gods just sending a massive dream to his followers..or cutting off a priest from his spells or a million avenues that the gods have in shaping their relgion. In the Real World the gods (if they exist) don't take such a direct hand. That is the problem with it. On the one hand they want the gods to have a direct impact...except when it comes to guiding and defending the religion. This is a contradiction. I think it is silly that the gods don't communicate directly with the highest level servants to some degree or other. So saying why would a commoner know what happened in the planes? Simple the god told the high priest and he told the people. I just always imagine the religions of the Realms to be very dynamic and just don't need to 'borrow' or 'retcon' from other relgions.
Though I would love to see cultural differences...but that is unlikely as they are getting rid of cultural diversity as it complicates things for them.
-That'd be a retcon if it was claimed that the Indians didn't live in the Americas to begin with, and that the European colonists always did.
No it wouldn't...atleast not by the regular use of the word retconned. The only way to retconned the past is by inventing time travel(and even then who knows)...what your example is a lie or propganda...or a mistake but it isn't the truth.
I just thought of that. In that sense, they are one and the same.
I disagree you can't treat the FR religion like real world religions as the main difference is that the gods take a very direct hand in guiding their followers. Even simplfied it is not well thought out or realistic. What you claim happens alot (though in truth it isn't as cxommon as you think especialy for panthiestic cultures) can be stopped by the gods just sending a massive dream to his followers..or cutting off a priest from his spells or a million avenues that the gods have in shaping their relgion.
Sure, you would THINK it works that way, but in practice it doesn't seem to really work out. Additionally, because the gods are real, and when I say "gods" I mean ALL of the gods not just a few, it makes matters even more complicated.
For example, we know about Heresy's in the Realms. Two of the most popular and well known around here is the Risen Sun Heresy and the Three-Faced Sun Heresy dealing with Lathander. We know, also, that Lathander's priests turned to him asking for guidance and didn't get any. However, less known is the Cult of Shared Suffering, a heresy devoted to Ilmater and the Heresy of the Dark Moon, a heresy involving both Selune and Shar preaching that they are two faces of the same deity.
If you take into account that the gods are real, you can even have other gods tricking the followers of other deities into believing lies about their deity, and then granting the priests of those deities spells once they become heretical. It can very quickly become a whole convoluted mess.
And we don't even REALLY know what happens when the majority of a deities worshipers begin to believe something that isn't "true" about the deity. We only have clues as to what probably happens and can draw speculation from those clues. We know what happens when people stop worshiping deities, however, they die a slow death. However, that still might not apply to all deities!
I think it is safe to assume that there are many, many heresies throughout the Realms and different takes on the same deity depending on the culture. For example, I believe those who live in the old Empires region - mostly Chessenta - have a slightly different take on Lathander than those living in the Heartlands. And certainly, depending on region and culture throughout Faerun there may be greater and lesser focuses on different portfolios. That over time may lead to different views of the same deity.
We also know that the gods are worshiped by different names in different regions, particularly as you move east and south, but also further west away from the Heartlands.
Chauntea for example is only one of her names and is worshiped as Bhalla and Jannath as well. Oghma is also known as Curna and Selune likewise has many different names: Bright Nydra, Elah and Lucha. And if we take Akadi and Grumbar as examples those different names may eventually evolve into completely independent aspects - such as Akadi becoming Teylas and Grumbar becoming Etugen both deities worshiped by the Horde.
Oh please, have you ever read ANYTHING time travel related?
Seriously.
If a Mystran Cleric did that, the obvious DM response is.
DM: Mystra expends most of her divine energy preparing for an attack from Cyric until Shar is able to tip the balance and the entire world collapses as a result of all of her traps going off.
Player: What!?
DM: Yes, you caused the Spell Plague...
You forgot to
...And we don't even REALLY know what happens when the majority of a deities worshipers begin to believe something that isn't "true" about the deity. We only have clues as to what probably happens and can draw speculation from those clues. We know what happens when people stop worshiping deities, however, they die a slow death. However, that still might not apply to all deities!...
Or the death of a deity can happen quite quickly, as we've seen with Kiaransalee recently. Of course, the bottom line is that anything can happen the way you prefer as a DM.
In my Realms, there was no Time of Troubles, no Cyric, Midnight or Kelemvor. I don't have a Shadow Weave. Netheril isn't overpowered and central to every plot on the face of the planet. Shar isn't central either. And there won't be any of this Spellplague nonsense that "destroys Mystra and the weave".
Netheril isn't overpowered and central to every plot on the face of the planet. Shar isn't central either.
*applauds*